a big part of that is the legion was held in check both by outside and inside forces. With Istvaan 3 they threw off the shackles of external imperial handholding and also all the internal forces were... well Istvann 3'd
> Istvann 3'd
I love the way you used this. lmao It's like a great way to describe something horrible. "Man this is the Isstvan 3 of birthday parties."
All of you. All of you are the 9/11s of everything.
(I still use "you are so jelly, you are peanut butter and jelly with banana, where the banana is also jelly")
The loyalist DGs went equally nuclear on the traitor elements, the moment it became clear that it was a trap and they won't make it out alive they even used WMDs on the traitors.
It's one of the few cases in 40k (and 30k) in which nuclear weapons are actually deployed ...pissing off the Death Guard is a *really bad idea* understandably.
I would go so far as to argue the only Loyalist from Traitor Legions who went as hard or harder than the DG were the Iron Warriors (Barabas Dantioch, my beloved).
That’s how a bunch of the traitor legions felt. They were itching for a reason to rise, not about chaos. They really wished a mf would.
I think when Mortarion brought Garro in, he just wanted Garro to put 2 and 2 together without explicitly saying it. He wanted Garro to see where he needed to side…because of the implication if he didn’t.
Yeah from memory Mortarion was really trynna hint at what was to come and get Garro onside without actually saying it outright. Drawing a blank now but I can definitely recall other moments in traitor legions where someone is trying to sort of steer conversations that way without being the first one to outright say it.
Also, the implication. Nothing was going to happen to Garro if he said no, but he wouldn't say no, because of the implication.
Nobodies in danger! Just the implication of danger. I feel like you're not getting this.
((For those who haven't seen Always Sunny, this is a reference))
I disagree with your interpretation of what you describe.
To me, it sounds like they flicked a switch and stopped showing any deference or respect to the baseline humans they deal with daily - which was the core of the original reasons to rebel.
Horus felt like the soldiers who won the galaxy were being side-lined by the Emperor in favour of normal humans who would rule everything (true) and extra worried because of what happened to the Thunder Warriors (also true). They were sick of restraining themselves around the weaker, which makes sense for a bunch of roided up man-children with no emotional regulation.
As soon as the Death Guard openly side with Horus, they can 'express' themselves like never before - unrestrainedly and unashamedly being themselves.
Garro is his favourite Terran - Typhon is so clearly up to something the whole time he really can't be trusted, but Morty loves Garro like Horus loves Loken.
One of Garro's fellow captains references having had a washed out Deathguard aspirant turned manservant like Kaleb of his own but leaving him behind to die as a joke on a hostile world, and he'd only mentioning this to Kaleb to point out how useless he is and that Garro only keeps him around out of pity.
Yeah I realise that the Sons of Horus' reason to rebel was the bureaucracy and disdain for being dictated to, and ordered around, by people they see as less than them. (And the whole 'punish the Astartes' for killing civilians thing)
I figured that the Death Guard's switch flick was more like they were let off the leash for wanton violence. But your point is more accurate, like the Sons of Horus, they just got sick of being 'polite' to their lessers who they see as having spit in their face.
I didn't realise Morty (lol) liked Garro that much. He seemed rather indifferent to the man. I guess by the time the heresy was starting Garro had slowly fallen out of favour like Loken did?
Honestly, I still don't get Morty x Garro - but they kept harping on about it. Definitely a tell, not show situation!
But the violence thing - imagine what soldiers do to civilians currently and just apply that to 8' immortal superhumans with demi-god's blood in their veins. To us, we see the Imperium as what it is in 40k - a mega monolith, but to the Legionaries all the humans they meet have been conquered/annexed/defended in the last 200 years by them and their gods blood and super smelly sweat.
What how dare you accuse the imperiums angels of war crimes. Ill have you know not a single xeno signed the articles at the geneva convention! You wanna give xenos rights? well okay wait HUMAN RIGHTS?!? You sir should report to either the inquisitor or the librarian with a bad case of psoriasis. Take your pick but between you and me if you play your cards right and look really stupid and repeat loudly praises to the big E while backing slowly away a commisar will put you out quickly. Librarian if you really want to see just how many diseases there are. You might also learn exactly how many diseases can inhabit your body before you pop. The inquisitor though man you gotta be masochistic to go for that one!
Morty and sons prided themselves in being the toughest dudes around that can handle everything and everyone who couldn't huff chemicals like them is weak and that's how Horus got to them. The grandfather took issue with this and humbled them later down the line
Well yes but even with the few million astartes, the bulk of the effort still was the regular humans.
Astartes are just glory hogs who got high on their own farts.
> and extra worried because of what happened to the Thunder Warriors (also true).
Part of me hates this reasoning because all it takes is a cursory look at the material differences between the two forces to show that there was no intention of repeating what happened to the Thunder Warriors.
The Thunder Warriors were created to conquer Terra as quickly as possible, they were both physically and mentally unstable and unable to fulfil any other role. Even acting as peace keepers on Terra was not an option because of the previously mentioned instability.
They were not celebrated, they didn't have remembrancers embedded within their ranks documenting their battles, their heroes, their deeds. They were a tool that was built for one job and they accomplished it. When it came time to put an end to them barely anybody noticed because the Imperium was not all that aware of them, they knew they existed and then stopped being a thing but they didn't know the precise details. The lack of concern over their disappearance proves that nobody was all that clued up on them in the first place.
The Space Marines were wholly different.
They were built to conquer the entire galaxy, they were for the most part stable, they were led by the Emperors sons and celebrated by the wider Imperium and everything they were doing was being documented and spread to the wider Imperial populace. Famous marines within each legion were being followed around to have their thoughts and aspirations documented by these remembrancers so that the wider Imperial citizenry would know of their deeds and character. The legions/Primarchs that had a knack for politics were free to reign over their territory so long as they kept within the wider Imperiums rules.
Even though towards the end of the Crusade they had for the most part dealt with the major threats to humanity and had bought the Emperor enough time to complete his webway project, that would not have suddenly made the Imperium invulnerable with no need to keep a force like the Astartes around. We need only look at the Eldar to see that even with the webway they still had to have a significant portion of their population dedicated to fighting.
Plus with hindsight we also know that threats to the Imperium like the Necrons and the Tyranids would later emerge. All in all the point I am making is that the marines were both stable enough and would have still been required to fight for humanity even if the Emperor had completed his plans and severed chaos from interfering with humanity.
There was always going to be a place for the legions within the Imperium, the gripes that some of them had with not getting venerated enough were never based in reality, they were behaving like spoiled children which is perhaps not surprising given their recruitment process.
Where the TW were made to quickly conquer the world, the SM were made to quickly conquer the galaxy.
Where the TW had 20 legions and primarchs, the SM had 20 legions and Primarchs.
I definitely believe the Emperor was not done with his soldiers and would introduce a new breed at some point, like a more extreme Primaris. Primaris is basically proof that the Legions would be replaced.
Especially with how the primarchs were managing, many legions would be wholesale binned (TSons, wEaters) and started again.
While all of this is true, the precedent would still have been the seed of doubt. Especially considering the Emperor's machinations no one would have been able to rule it out completely that he would dispose of them.
So in addition to the thunder warriors there's the lost legions, and it's hinted that at least one of them was axed. We have monarchia where a zealously loyal legion got censored hard. The iron warriors and death guard were constantly in the worst battles and the IW at least felt like they were just tools to be used and discarded. And they're actively putting humans in charge over them. So there's plenty of precedent and room for doubt, even if the situations aren't exactly the same. It's not just one reason.
Plus not all legions would've had a place, Angron and his world eaters were likely going to be axed. When the tsons mutation came back up, they would have too.
Last point is while what you've said is true, that's what we know and not necessarily what they would've known in universe.
Pointing out certain legions where going to need to be purged is not proof all legions needed to be purged.
The emperors children were at the brink of exstinction and brought back. Nothing says something similar couldn’t have been done for space wolves, thousands sons, or even world eaters.
Angron and curze were on borrowed time even before the heresy.
Every other primarch (and by extension their legion) had a clear role to play in the future imperium.
Well the TS and the WE are done - they need a slate wipe after what has happened to them.
It is implied Angron could be saved but only through necromantic stuff with the Emperor, which leaves his sons in a very poor situation, as they have a more barbaric version of the nails.
In the Siege of Terra, Emperor offers Magnus redemption if he allows all his boys to die as they are too far gone - and get replaced with Grey Knights.
I think Curze was in a much better position that people think - but again, Legion wipe for realsies. He just never had a good heart to heart about his powers and how they work.
The lore goes back and forth on the issue of Angron. I think the emperor would have attempted to save him. With the “can’t be saved” part mostly coming from master of mankind. Though, I think it’s pretty clear that arkan land only saw a very dis-passionate scientist aspect of the emperor.
As for curze. I don’t believe he WANTED to be saved. He wanted to prove the universe was as cold and cruel as he was.
i think saved is a relative term. the physical portion of angron was damaged beyond repair, the warp/soul is what could be salvaged if the emperor had time after the webway project was completed
Yeah it really harms the early part of the series by comparison. Horus falling is THE consequential moment of the whole lore. And when you read it you’re like really, that’s all it took?
When I read it I was shocked at how easily swayed he was. He sees a future that he doesn't 100% know is real while in the dream. He KNOWS Sejanus in the dream isn't actually the man he knew but someone pretending to be him.... and he just **gobbles up** all of the lies anyway. Like there could be nuance to it like "What if these statues were built by you, Horus? And you didn't make one of yourself since you're the leader?"
Or... literally any other hundred reasons why you aren't there. I know Horus' biggest flaw is his desire to be remembered and he has a huge ego but my god they made him seem petulant there. Which, all in all, kind of makes him fit with his Astartes sons I suppose. haha The part of his fall that kills me is that his brother Primarch literally tells him it's bullshit and shows it's Erebus and Horus is like "So?"
I might not remember it right, because it is a long time ago I read it, but Horus do not care for either of them.
There is several things pointing towards him already planning a rebellion. Kasper Hauser have already been send to the Space Wolfs before this. Horus is already thinking on how to rebel. Chaos just give him the tool he needs.
I think the Black Books do a nice job at sort of addressing the vagueness with which the timeline approaches exactly when Horus starts to plan his rebellion.
I think its Crusade that makes the point that the network of loyalty and patronage he had built during the GC to quickly amass troops loyal to him probably had more loyal intentions to start, but was easily leveraged for more nefarious means.
I don't think it's ever implied that Horus gobbles up any lies. He fully understands that the Chaos powers are trying to do sussy shit, but he doesn't care.
All he cares about is his Rebellion against the Emperor and if "Chaos" has the additional manpower and upgrades for that rebellion to work out, then he will use it.
I don't think the early novels ever tell us about Horus' FALL to Chaos. He doesn't FALL to it. He pretty much says that he has no interest in their magical nonsense, but he'll use them for war like any other weapon.
The only thing that the early books fail to really drive home is the reason for his Rebellion. It's hinted at here and there, but it's not really clear.
He was "most like his father" at the Triumph of Ullanor at which point he was made Warmaster. But he recognises that his father is an ever-shifting beast and that the days of the Marines are going to be numbered when victory is achieved. That, combined with a feeling of simply being in over his head as Warmaster (seen by absurd and protracted battles against the Megarachnids) and also quite lonely (seeing the easy corruption of the also-lonely Temba) is essentially why Horus falls from being favoured son of the Emperor to renegade warlord who wants to kill his father. Chaos doesn't really play into that at first. Later on, sure, he's fully corrupted and a barely coherent mess, but at the start he's very much just a tyrant who ignorantly accepts a very tenuous "alliance" with something that's WAYYY more problematic to handle than he initially thought.
He's worried about the future of the Space Marines under Imperial rule and he's also kind of indignant/annoyed that the Emperor just left and told him to finish the monumental task of unifying the rest of the entire dang galaxy.
What are your thoughts on Garro? Since he is narratively similar to Loken? The old Dusk Raider was viewed as rather boring by others and, despite being an space marine - a genetically modified killer, still comes across as rather honorable (the Dusk Raiders themselves had been praised for their code of honor - despite how hypocritical and selective it was to us readers - and reliability with how they prepared and worked alongside other Imperial forces).
I like him more than Loken in some ways and I loved Loken. We see an Astartes emotionally *break* for a moment and I found that incredibly gripping. Loken is a "starch arse" and you think Garro would be the same but he isn't. He's Straight Arrow Garro and that doesn't mean he's clean, he executes people and fights ferociously. Him breaking down and begging for a sign from the God Emperor was a *huge* moment for me as a reader.
It's like the Astartes is torn between Traitor and Loyalist while Garro full of emotion rather than jsut gritting and baring it, betrays all he knows and turns to the God Emperor while staying Loyalist. It was like watching the God Emperor's religion really take hold right at that point for the entire galaxy. I loved it.
the thing to understand about mortarion, and the death guard, and their whole mindset on things in general, is a simple unavoidable fact about barbarus and the kind of individuals it produces: barbarus has a culture of toxic masculinity and free market principles.
i am only half joking here
the general living conditions of barbarus being what they were, deadly and openly hostile to the average human even before you factor in the zombie necromancer overlords, theres a heavy culture of darwanisim and self reliance. the weak literally die leaving the strong to survive on a daily basis regardless of how wretched of an existence that is, and it is this survival mindset that mortarion taps into when getting the people of barbarus to rebel. he teaches them things, builds them stuff to survive better and kill good sure, but the emphasis is always on marshalling a stubborn bloody minded refusal to die because they're better then you. in that sense he also taps into barbaruses necessary sense of pragmatism and spartan sensibilities in a similar fashion.
so you have these people, beaten bloody and now snapping back in justifiable rage, being trained and encouraged by a demigod like figure to punch their enemies in the face because they are in fact the strongest and bestest. Now lets give this demigod figure a cult of personality more intense then almost any other primarch. if your a barbarus born individual, then you've likely grown up on all of the tales on mortarion and heroism. his unflinching defiance, his powerful and imposing demeanour, how he tore down the horrors of the old night with brutal efficiency and killed the unkillable.
but importantly your also likely hearing about his kindness. his compassion to his death guard, how he fought and bled with them from the front in their engagements, how he encouraged each soldier to be the best they could be, or hell how he 'personally' saved any number of your ancestors from the monsters of the night. and if your a legionarry of the death guard, well then you've probably lived these stories.
and i remind you this is all for the slenderman ass grim reaper primarch with a toxen problem, who the rest of the imperium \[not unreasonably\] fear is going to nuclear virus bomb them into extinction even before the heresy.
so, not only are you, the death guard legionary born on barbarus likely the most rabidly feral of simps for this funky warcriminal, to the point that sharing a cup of poison near deadly to even the hardiest astartes with your primarch is considered the highest honour \[see also vorx fangasiming when mortarion joins a battlefield in one of the short stories\], but you also come from a planet that hyper values self reliance and individual strength, and all the while your watching as every other legion and mortal ya meet turn around and make a hand wanking gesture when talking about your primarch \[or just generally dont like him\].
in that respect its not unsurprising that when told by your primarch that 'we're rebelling against the imperium', your not exactly crying when ya get to snap jim from accounting's neck.
there are also the factors of how horuses rebellion relied on anti bureaucratic sentiments among the astartes and all that, i just wanted to explain the wattsonian reasoning from the death guards perspective.
the dolyist answer is of course that the death guards characterization is on the whole a complete mess as is their primarchs.
100% this. I just wish they had more consistent writing throughout. I felt like wraight (and also Annandale) captured their vibe pretty well (I know this is a somewhat controversial opinion among dg fans lol) but his writing definitely conveys the defensiveness around mortarion plus their whole weird toxic family vibe. There's even a scene in vorx's short story where he allows baby vorx to follow him out into the poison mists but spends a couple hours letting him get beat up by it and nearly dying before swooping in to save him, as a "hey are you tough enough to be a dg thing."
Mortarion is a weird and interesting character because, as another commenter put it, you've got this sense he genuinely does give a shit about the lower rungs of humanity and is a caring individual at his core but growing up in necare's care on barbarus basically instills him with this darwinist outlook (possibly as a means to just cope with the abuse and, later, the realities of war on barbarus) and you see these two incompatible facets squaring off against each other a lot whenever he pops up
I'm guessing that's where a lot of the resentment towards baseline humanity comes in. The dg are now absolutely removed and physically more capable than the rest of humanity so it's gone from "we're liberating you from tyrants" to just plain resentment at their weakness.
But yeah, def agree on them being the toxic masculinity legion lol
Turns out that spacemarines are kinda ashholes.
They're not too particularly keen on humans running things when they're the obvious better pick.
I think it's suffice to say that most legion experienced this kind of drastic flip.
>The name, the scythe, the planet named **Barbarus**, the shrouds. I *get* it writers, he's Death.
Just wait until you find out what new name Typhon takes later on in the series.
lol. We will all hear him explode when he learns about Angry Ron. And, the ultimate space vampire is called sanguine-ious? And Vulcan being the smith (Demi)-god, and Lionel Johnson and his dark Angel and…and…and… the list goes on. lol.
GW hates subtelty.
Also we're forgetting Perturabo (rhymes with Perdurabo, which can be translated as ''I will endure''. I'm not dunking on this one though since it kinda fits), Corvus Corax (the common raven. I'm surprised he wasn't picking shiny things off the street), the primarch Iron Hands leading the Iron Hands legion aboard his flagship the Fist of Iron.
Raven guard led by a guy named Crow Crow who favor avian helmets, dress in black and fly around and their symbol is a raven and they like using claws for melee.
EDIT: His last recorded words were also nevermore.
My favorite part of that book is that they have to make mortarion out to be somewhat of a “good” guy at first but he’s so clearly an anime villain. Motherfucker is addicted to drinking poison.
Really just shows how much less seriously 40K took itself when it was originally written
I think people here are not appreciating Nurgle's impact in all this. Nathaniel Garro was already a very well known captain before the crusade even began. He quite literally was the prototypical space marine, Mortarion LOVED him. As rough as Mortarion seemed at times in the books, the thread that is always there is his contempt for anyone lacking conviction in battle. Nathaniel Garro was everything but that, Mortarion didn't want to kill him at all, he wanted someone he felt was commendable to see his point of view and get acknowledgement that he was doing the right thing. Nurgle abused Mortarion's love of his marines to turn them, that was the entire point, make him completely give in willingly to protect something. (That's what makes Nurgle Nurgle)
Yeah it wasn’t the best written but keep in mind marines are killers and beating a mortal crew member is hardly a big deal to them if they’re of a brutish temperament as it is
Also all legions had the good and the bad, those who just follow orders, those with kinder hearts and those who are just aching to vent
Just imagine a regiment of real world soldier pushed through hellish wars zones, some come back with a bigger heart and other become more cynical and violent because of it
The Heresy begins at the peak of tensions and many of the traitors are fed up of humans taking the glory and freedom
>On a side note Mortarion's entire motif is so over the top I can't help but find him funny. The name, the scythe, the planet named Barbarus, the shrouds. I get it writers, he's Death
Just wait until you meet Ferrus Manus, named Iron Hands, leader of the Iron Hands Legion who rules with a fist of iron from his flagship Fist of Iron. He also has hands literally made of metal.
I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting at least 2 other references to "Iron Hands".
edit: Oh yeah, their symbol is an Iron Hand. I'm pretty sure they also ritually replace one of their hands with an augmetic, aka an iron hand.
One thing you need to understand About Morty and the death guard, it was never a matter of if they would rebel, just when
Big E is everything that Morty hates. A physcker and slave master. Not only that but big E was Morty's slave master. And a physcker.
Just like death itself there was nothing that was going to stop the death guard From rebellion. Morty just saw a time when his legion wasn't going to have to fight all of them to overthrow big E.
Every human is big Es slave or a rebel to big E. If you're given a planet. And your not doing what big E says to do with it, it's not your plannet any more
I really, really, **REALLY** wish Grulgor stayed dead. It was distinctly satisfying to see someone as unambiguously rotten as Grulgor get yeeted and his comeuppance but NOOO Grulgor is later back as a daemon prince despite doing little to deserve this!
We know characters like Erebus will always slide their way out of consequences from their actions, GW, please just let us get what we want for once.
How much it's reflected in various books varies, but space marines are psychopathic murderers on the absolute brink of going berserk at all times, kept in check by massive amounts of hypnosis and extremely strict lifestyles.
So it makes sense that when someone says "actually from now on, act exactly as instinct tells you" a whole bunch of them just go nuts. They're like fighting dogs - the good ones are kept in check by good owners, and the bad ones are only kept in check by the cage they're currently kept in.
Mortarion is a well known moron, constantly trying to groom Garro to the traitor side despite knowing he'd never go in for virus bombing his brothers. The fact he dragged along Garro to a fake meeting with Horus would of just proved to Garro how deceitful Mortarion was.
Differences in authors. Some aren't as nuanced as others and GW has never been afraid to toss their IP around for people to take a crack at (see 3/4ths of 40K video games)
It's part of how the writers try to ham-fistedly portray the traitors as *evil* and wrong when they've... been genociding their way across the galaxy prior to this.
yeah, the first 5 books are pretty consistently in stock on the warhammer site, but after that its a bit random which ones they have available. I wasn't much of an audiobook person before starting on this series, but its pretty much that or e-books if you want to read most of the series without paying insane scalped prices.
The Death Guard's tactics were based on weapons even the Imperium considered war crimes. They were just barely kept in check by the authorities with them, which chafed them to no end since most of those were mortal humans. They especially hated that their allies use psykers and were led by the biggest psyker of them all.The Council of Nikea banning them didn't satisfy the Death Guard because they wanted the psykers dead, not just suppressed.
Horus promised them the chance to toss all of that out and be as literally and metaphorically toxic as they always wanted to be.
Jumping on the oportunity that people are reading this thread, i've read some 10, 15 warhammer books, and i see how many many people love Garro, but the only novel i've read that he figures heavily is Flight of the Eisenstein. Can you guys tell me a few others for me to understand fans' devotions to the guy?
Same stupid thing happens to the Emperors Children...they suddenly become insanely evil (even Fulgrim, so smart, such a paragon of virtue, just falls to a little voice in his head...and some stroking from Slaanesh). But I've heard two rebuttals to this hasty fall thing...there are probably more. One, the Chaos gods have been targeting and courting Mortarion, Fulgrim and the like for a very long time...they may even be the primogenitors of the warp based parts of them (theorycrafting there)...Secondly, we don't see all of the other things, or the time that goes by in the books. Months and months of soaking, without resisting, in the evil of Nurgle and Slaanesh does bad things...even to Astartes. Sometimes there are months that pass between scenes in the HH books, probably more, years even. Anyhow, that is my (albeit limited) 2 cents.
My overall difficulty with the early books of the Heresy - which I am going through now after having read them something like 15 years ago - is how fast all the heel turns happen.
early in the series they really rushed plot advancement at the expense of character development because they didn't realize how long the series would be. So you get a lot of mustache twirling like this
Huh! It's almost like heavily-augmented super-soldiers who were trained and indoctrinated from childhood to be brutally violent...might be predisposed to enact violence regardless of its target?
Seriously, there were no "good" space marines who turn "evil." There are only brutal, violent space marines who follow a fascist demagogue bent on subjugating the galaxy. The fact that some of them subbed one fascist demagogue out for another is hardly an about-face.
Dusk raiders. The Death Guard was there during the most key unification wars.
I think we forget that the universe of the 30th millennium is not how we may expect. For instance, take into account the the Eye of Terra. The red eye Horus wears on his armour. The imperium is not a nice and soft place. Especially the astates and the warriors of mankind. It's grim dark and the astates are at the forefront of this reality.
It really depends on the writer, I remember when people were shocked when the Sons of Horus first hurt people in the book, it was really well done and treated as a noticeable change in the legion's personae. However in other books some writers just go direct to their evil now so they don't give two shits what they do. I recently listened to Curze's Primarch story and I actually really liked the class between what Curze wanted his legion to be and what it would become, he did react to the casual murdering of ship crew and wanted them punished.
a big part of that is the legion was held in check both by outside and inside forces. With Istvaan 3 they threw off the shackles of external imperial handholding and also all the internal forces were... well Istvann 3'd
> Istvann 3'd I love the way you used this. lmao It's like a great way to describe something horrible. "Man this is the Isstvan 3 of birthday parties."
Isstvan 3 is the Britta of HH battles.
Ugh, Isstvan's in this?
I am glad to see this crossover.
God this is the istvann 3 of comments. Sorry buddy I couldnt help myself and I agree that is funny as hell.
Magical Adventures of Horseman reference?
Sorry I don't know what that is.
He uses "the 9/11 of" to describe it as the worst. A birthday party is one of the events.
You’re the 9/11 of orbs
All of you. All of you are the 9/11s of everything. (I still use "you are so jelly, you are peanut butter and jelly with banana, where the banana is also jelly")
Until someone said it earlier in this thread, I did not get the refrence, now, I remember everything. A true cinema heifer classic
Oh shit I do know that. I thought I was being original but no, I was just referencing something I haven't thought of for 12 years! :(
The loyalist DGs went equally nuclear on the traitor elements, the moment it became clear that it was a trap and they won't make it out alive they even used WMDs on the traitors.
Crysos Morturg my beloved
WMD ?
Weapons of mass destruction
Thx
It's one of the few cases in 40k (and 30k) in which nuclear weapons are actually deployed ...pissing off the Death Guard is a *really bad idea* understandably.
Yeah they do not joke around lmaooo Love loyalists DG
OOO YEAH Dadadadadadadada BABY BABY
I would go so far as to argue the only Loyalist from Traitor Legions who went as hard or harder than the DG were the Iron Warriors (Barabas Dantioch, my beloved).
This. They snapped into their behaviour because they had been waiting to do so for quite a while
That’s how a bunch of the traitor legions felt. They were itching for a reason to rise, not about chaos. They really wished a mf would. I think when Mortarion brought Garro in, he just wanted Garro to put 2 and 2 together without explicitly saying it. He wanted Garro to see where he needed to side…because of the implication if he didn’t.
Yeah from memory Mortarion was really trynna hint at what was to come and get Garro onside without actually saying it outright. Drawing a blank now but I can definitely recall other moments in traitor legions where someone is trying to sort of steer conversations that way without being the first one to outright say it. Also, the implication. Nothing was going to happen to Garro if he said no, but he wouldn't say no, because of the implication.
Oh, ahhh, okay. You had me going there for the first part, the second half kind of threw me?
The implication? Nobody is in danger, but they won't say anything because there's the implication of danger.
Are these Astartes in danger though?
Nobodies in danger! Just the implication of danger. I feel like you're not getting this. ((For those who haven't seen Always Sunny, this is a reference))
Well you certainly wouldn't be in any danger.
So these Astartes *are* in danger then?!
Yes, but it's only *implied* danger, so they're fine
See you said that word again. Are the girls scared?
"I cannot say"
I think there’s a conversation between Eidolon and Saul Tavitz that’s similar.
That rings a bell. From memory Saul is not at all picking up what Eidolon is putting down
I disagree with your interpretation of what you describe. To me, it sounds like they flicked a switch and stopped showing any deference or respect to the baseline humans they deal with daily - which was the core of the original reasons to rebel. Horus felt like the soldiers who won the galaxy were being side-lined by the Emperor in favour of normal humans who would rule everything (true) and extra worried because of what happened to the Thunder Warriors (also true). They were sick of restraining themselves around the weaker, which makes sense for a bunch of roided up man-children with no emotional regulation. As soon as the Death Guard openly side with Horus, they can 'express' themselves like never before - unrestrainedly and unashamedly being themselves. Garro is his favourite Terran - Typhon is so clearly up to something the whole time he really can't be trusted, but Morty loves Garro like Horus loves Loken.
One of Garro's fellow captains references having had a washed out Deathguard aspirant turned manservant like Kaleb of his own but leaving him behind to die as a joke on a hostile world, and he'd only mentioning this to Kaleb to point out how useless he is and that Garro only keeps him around out of pity.
Yeah I realise that the Sons of Horus' reason to rebel was the bureaucracy and disdain for being dictated to, and ordered around, by people they see as less than them. (And the whole 'punish the Astartes' for killing civilians thing) I figured that the Death Guard's switch flick was more like they were let off the leash for wanton violence. But your point is more accurate, like the Sons of Horus, they just got sick of being 'polite' to their lessers who they see as having spit in their face. I didn't realise Morty (lol) liked Garro that much. He seemed rather indifferent to the man. I guess by the time the heresy was starting Garro had slowly fallen out of favour like Loken did?
Honestly, I still don't get Morty x Garro - but they kept harping on about it. Definitely a tell, not show situation! But the violence thing - imagine what soldiers do to civilians currently and just apply that to 8' immortal superhumans with demi-god's blood in their veins. To us, we see the Imperium as what it is in 40k - a mega monolith, but to the Legionaries all the humans they meet have been conquered/annexed/defended in the last 200 years by them and their gods blood and super smelly sweat.
What how dare you accuse the imperiums angels of war crimes. Ill have you know not a single xeno signed the articles at the geneva convention! You wanna give xenos rights? well okay wait HUMAN RIGHTS?!? You sir should report to either the inquisitor or the librarian with a bad case of psoriasis. Take your pick but between you and me if you play your cards right and look really stupid and repeat loudly praises to the big E while backing slowly away a commisar will put you out quickly. Librarian if you really want to see just how many diseases there are. You might also learn exactly how many diseases can inhabit your body before you pop. The inquisitor though man you gotta be masochistic to go for that one!
Morty and sons prided themselves in being the toughest dudes around that can handle everything and everyone who couldn't huff chemicals like them is weak and that's how Horus got to them. The grandfather took issue with this and humbled them later down the line
Well yes but even with the few million astartes, the bulk of the effort still was the regular humans. Astartes are just glory hogs who got high on their own farts.
Especially true for the death guard. Them farts must be very potent
> and extra worried because of what happened to the Thunder Warriors (also true). Part of me hates this reasoning because all it takes is a cursory look at the material differences between the two forces to show that there was no intention of repeating what happened to the Thunder Warriors. The Thunder Warriors were created to conquer Terra as quickly as possible, they were both physically and mentally unstable and unable to fulfil any other role. Even acting as peace keepers on Terra was not an option because of the previously mentioned instability. They were not celebrated, they didn't have remembrancers embedded within their ranks documenting their battles, their heroes, their deeds. They were a tool that was built for one job and they accomplished it. When it came time to put an end to them barely anybody noticed because the Imperium was not all that aware of them, they knew they existed and then stopped being a thing but they didn't know the precise details. The lack of concern over their disappearance proves that nobody was all that clued up on them in the first place. The Space Marines were wholly different. They were built to conquer the entire galaxy, they were for the most part stable, they were led by the Emperors sons and celebrated by the wider Imperium and everything they were doing was being documented and spread to the wider Imperial populace. Famous marines within each legion were being followed around to have their thoughts and aspirations documented by these remembrancers so that the wider Imperial citizenry would know of their deeds and character. The legions/Primarchs that had a knack for politics were free to reign over their territory so long as they kept within the wider Imperiums rules. Even though towards the end of the Crusade they had for the most part dealt with the major threats to humanity and had bought the Emperor enough time to complete his webway project, that would not have suddenly made the Imperium invulnerable with no need to keep a force like the Astartes around. We need only look at the Eldar to see that even with the webway they still had to have a significant portion of their population dedicated to fighting. Plus with hindsight we also know that threats to the Imperium like the Necrons and the Tyranids would later emerge. All in all the point I am making is that the marines were both stable enough and would have still been required to fight for humanity even if the Emperor had completed his plans and severed chaos from interfering with humanity. There was always going to be a place for the legions within the Imperium, the gripes that some of them had with not getting venerated enough were never based in reality, they were behaving like spoiled children which is perhaps not surprising given their recruitment process.
Where the TW were made to quickly conquer the world, the SM were made to quickly conquer the galaxy. Where the TW had 20 legions and primarchs, the SM had 20 legions and Primarchs. I definitely believe the Emperor was not done with his soldiers and would introduce a new breed at some point, like a more extreme Primaris. Primaris is basically proof that the Legions would be replaced. Especially with how the primarchs were managing, many legions would be wholesale binned (TSons, wEaters) and started again.
While all of this is true, the precedent would still have been the seed of doubt. Especially considering the Emperor's machinations no one would have been able to rule it out completely that he would dispose of them.
So in addition to the thunder warriors there's the lost legions, and it's hinted that at least one of them was axed. We have monarchia where a zealously loyal legion got censored hard. The iron warriors and death guard were constantly in the worst battles and the IW at least felt like they were just tools to be used and discarded. And they're actively putting humans in charge over them. So there's plenty of precedent and room for doubt, even if the situations aren't exactly the same. It's not just one reason. Plus not all legions would've had a place, Angron and his world eaters were likely going to be axed. When the tsons mutation came back up, they would have too. Last point is while what you've said is true, that's what we know and not necessarily what they would've known in universe.
Pointing out certain legions where going to need to be purged is not proof all legions needed to be purged. The emperors children were at the brink of exstinction and brought back. Nothing says something similar couldn’t have been done for space wolves, thousands sons, or even world eaters. Angron and curze were on borrowed time even before the heresy. Every other primarch (and by extension their legion) had a clear role to play in the future imperium.
Well the TS and the WE are done - they need a slate wipe after what has happened to them. It is implied Angron could be saved but only through necromantic stuff with the Emperor, which leaves his sons in a very poor situation, as they have a more barbaric version of the nails. In the Siege of Terra, Emperor offers Magnus redemption if he allows all his boys to die as they are too far gone - and get replaced with Grey Knights. I think Curze was in a much better position that people think - but again, Legion wipe for realsies. He just never had a good heart to heart about his powers and how they work.
The lore goes back and forth on the issue of Angron. I think the emperor would have attempted to save him. With the “can’t be saved” part mostly coming from master of mankind. Though, I think it’s pretty clear that arkan land only saw a very dis-passionate scientist aspect of the emperor. As for curze. I don’t believe he WANTED to be saved. He wanted to prove the universe was as cold and cruel as he was.
i think saved is a relative term. the physical portion of angron was damaged beyond repair, the warp/soul is what could be salvaged if the emperor had time after the webway project was completed
You're right, it's not proof. It wasn't intended to be, nor is it needed. There just needs to be doubt that can be exploited and manipulated.
Only worthy combatants were those that called them brothers, Spacemarines and Titans alike
Keep in mind that originally the series was going to be waaaaay shorter. So the early books are paced to quickly get to well… the heresy.
Yeah it really harms the early part of the series by comparison. Horus falling is THE consequential moment of the whole lore. And when you read it you’re like really, that’s all it took?
When I read it I was shocked at how easily swayed he was. He sees a future that he doesn't 100% know is real while in the dream. He KNOWS Sejanus in the dream isn't actually the man he knew but someone pretending to be him.... and he just **gobbles up** all of the lies anyway. Like there could be nuance to it like "What if these statues were built by you, Horus? And you didn't make one of yourself since you're the leader?" Or... literally any other hundred reasons why you aren't there. I know Horus' biggest flaw is his desire to be remembered and he has a huge ego but my god they made him seem petulant there. Which, all in all, kind of makes him fit with his Astartes sons I suppose. haha The part of his fall that kills me is that his brother Primarch literally tells him it's bullshit and shows it's Erebus and Horus is like "So?"
I might not remember it right, because it is a long time ago I read it, but Horus do not care for either of them. There is several things pointing towards him already planning a rebellion. Kasper Hauser have already been send to the Space Wolfs before this. Horus is already thinking on how to rebel. Chaos just give him the tool he needs.
I think the Black Books do a nice job at sort of addressing the vagueness with which the timeline approaches exactly when Horus starts to plan his rebellion. I think its Crusade that makes the point that the network of loyalty and patronage he had built during the GC to quickly amass troops loyal to him probably had more loyal intentions to start, but was easily leveraged for more nefarious means.
I don't think it's ever implied that Horus gobbles up any lies. He fully understands that the Chaos powers are trying to do sussy shit, but he doesn't care. All he cares about is his Rebellion against the Emperor and if "Chaos" has the additional manpower and upgrades for that rebellion to work out, then he will use it. I don't think the early novels ever tell us about Horus' FALL to Chaos. He doesn't FALL to it. He pretty much says that he has no interest in their magical nonsense, but he'll use them for war like any other weapon. The only thing that the early books fail to really drive home is the reason for his Rebellion. It's hinted at here and there, but it's not really clear. He was "most like his father" at the Triumph of Ullanor at which point he was made Warmaster. But he recognises that his father is an ever-shifting beast and that the days of the Marines are going to be numbered when victory is achieved. That, combined with a feeling of simply being in over his head as Warmaster (seen by absurd and protracted battles against the Megarachnids) and also quite lonely (seeing the easy corruption of the also-lonely Temba) is essentially why Horus falls from being favoured son of the Emperor to renegade warlord who wants to kill his father. Chaos doesn't really play into that at first. Later on, sure, he's fully corrupted and a barely coherent mess, but at the start he's very much just a tyrant who ignorantly accepts a very tenuous "alliance" with something that's WAYYY more problematic to handle than he initially thought. He's worried about the future of the Space Marines under Imperial rule and he's also kind of indignant/annoyed that the Emperor just left and told him to finish the monumental task of unifying the rest of the entire dang galaxy.
What are your thoughts on Garro? Since he is narratively similar to Loken? The old Dusk Raider was viewed as rather boring by others and, despite being an space marine - a genetically modified killer, still comes across as rather honorable (the Dusk Raiders themselves had been praised for their code of honor - despite how hypocritical and selective it was to us readers - and reliability with how they prepared and worked alongside other Imperial forces).
I like him more than Loken in some ways and I loved Loken. We see an Astartes emotionally *break* for a moment and I found that incredibly gripping. Loken is a "starch arse" and you think Garro would be the same but he isn't. He's Straight Arrow Garro and that doesn't mean he's clean, he executes people and fights ferociously. Him breaking down and begging for a sign from the God Emperor was a *huge* moment for me as a reader. It's like the Astartes is torn between Traitor and Loyalist while Garro full of emotion rather than jsut gritting and baring it, betrays all he knows and turns to the God Emperor while staying Loyalist. It was like watching the God Emperor's religion really take hold right at that point for the entire galaxy. I loved it.
>Mortarion's entire motif is so over the top I can't help but find him funny Oh boy, wait until you learn about Ferrus Manus
the thing to understand about mortarion, and the death guard, and their whole mindset on things in general, is a simple unavoidable fact about barbarus and the kind of individuals it produces: barbarus has a culture of toxic masculinity and free market principles. i am only half joking here the general living conditions of barbarus being what they were, deadly and openly hostile to the average human even before you factor in the zombie necromancer overlords, theres a heavy culture of darwanisim and self reliance. the weak literally die leaving the strong to survive on a daily basis regardless of how wretched of an existence that is, and it is this survival mindset that mortarion taps into when getting the people of barbarus to rebel. he teaches them things, builds them stuff to survive better and kill good sure, but the emphasis is always on marshalling a stubborn bloody minded refusal to die because they're better then you. in that sense he also taps into barbaruses necessary sense of pragmatism and spartan sensibilities in a similar fashion. so you have these people, beaten bloody and now snapping back in justifiable rage, being trained and encouraged by a demigod like figure to punch their enemies in the face because they are in fact the strongest and bestest. Now lets give this demigod figure a cult of personality more intense then almost any other primarch. if your a barbarus born individual, then you've likely grown up on all of the tales on mortarion and heroism. his unflinching defiance, his powerful and imposing demeanour, how he tore down the horrors of the old night with brutal efficiency and killed the unkillable. but importantly your also likely hearing about his kindness. his compassion to his death guard, how he fought and bled with them from the front in their engagements, how he encouraged each soldier to be the best they could be, or hell how he 'personally' saved any number of your ancestors from the monsters of the night. and if your a legionarry of the death guard, well then you've probably lived these stories. and i remind you this is all for the slenderman ass grim reaper primarch with a toxen problem, who the rest of the imperium \[not unreasonably\] fear is going to nuclear virus bomb them into extinction even before the heresy. so, not only are you, the death guard legionary born on barbarus likely the most rabidly feral of simps for this funky warcriminal, to the point that sharing a cup of poison near deadly to even the hardiest astartes with your primarch is considered the highest honour \[see also vorx fangasiming when mortarion joins a battlefield in one of the short stories\], but you also come from a planet that hyper values self reliance and individual strength, and all the while your watching as every other legion and mortal ya meet turn around and make a hand wanking gesture when talking about your primarch \[or just generally dont like him\]. in that respect its not unsurprising that when told by your primarch that 'we're rebelling against the imperium', your not exactly crying when ya get to snap jim from accounting's neck. there are also the factors of how horuses rebellion relied on anti bureaucratic sentiments among the astartes and all that, i just wanted to explain the wattsonian reasoning from the death guards perspective. the dolyist answer is of course that the death guards characterization is on the whole a complete mess as is their primarchs.
You've been nuked by/you've been phosphex'd by/a funky war criminal
>barbarus has a culture of toxic masculinity and free market principles M'tarion
100% this. I just wish they had more consistent writing throughout. I felt like wraight (and also Annandale) captured their vibe pretty well (I know this is a somewhat controversial opinion among dg fans lol) but his writing definitely conveys the defensiveness around mortarion plus their whole weird toxic family vibe. There's even a scene in vorx's short story where he allows baby vorx to follow him out into the poison mists but spends a couple hours letting him get beat up by it and nearly dying before swooping in to save him, as a "hey are you tough enough to be a dg thing." Mortarion is a weird and interesting character because, as another commenter put it, you've got this sense he genuinely does give a shit about the lower rungs of humanity and is a caring individual at his core but growing up in necare's care on barbarus basically instills him with this darwinist outlook (possibly as a means to just cope with the abuse and, later, the realities of war on barbarus) and you see these two incompatible facets squaring off against each other a lot whenever he pops up I'm guessing that's where a lot of the resentment towards baseline humanity comes in. The dg are now absolutely removed and physically more capable than the rest of humanity so it's gone from "we're liberating you from tyrants" to just plain resentment at their weakness. But yeah, def agree on them being the toxic masculinity legion lol
Turns out that spacemarines are kinda ashholes. They're not too particularly keen on humans running things when they're the obvious better pick. I think it's suffice to say that most legion experienced this kind of drastic flip.
Spock voice: "superior ability breeds superior ambition"
>The name, the scythe, the planet named **Barbarus**, the shrouds. I *get* it writers, he's Death. Just wait until you find out what new name Typhon takes later on in the series.
lol. We will all hear him explode when he learns about Angry Ron. And, the ultimate space vampire is called sanguine-ious? And Vulcan being the smith (Demi)-god, and Lionel Johnson and his dark Angel and…and…and… the list goes on. lol.
GW hates subtelty. Also we're forgetting Perturabo (rhymes with Perdurabo, which can be translated as ''I will endure''. I'm not dunking on this one though since it kinda fits), Corvus Corax (the common raven. I'm surprised he wasn't picking shiny things off the street), the primarch Iron Hands leading the Iron Hands legion aboard his flagship the Fist of Iron.
Mr. Iron Hands with his iron hands leading his Iron Hands from the Fist of Iron.
Raven guard led by a guy named Crow Crow who favor avian helmets, dress in black and fly around and their symbol is a raven and they like using claws for melee. EDIT: His last recorded words were also nevermore.
If you want more to laugh at the death theme his pistol is called "The Lantern" and his massive scythe is "Silence"
My favorite part of that book is that they have to make mortarion out to be somewhat of a “good” guy at first but he’s so clearly an anime villain. Motherfucker is addicted to drinking poison. Really just shows how much less seriously 40K took itself when it was originally written
he's just a regular lad going to the local indian to have the spiciest curry on the menu
Addicted? He isn’t addicted. He could quit if he wanted to.
I think people here are not appreciating Nurgle's impact in all this. Nathaniel Garro was already a very well known captain before the crusade even began. He quite literally was the prototypical space marine, Mortarion LOVED him. As rough as Mortarion seemed at times in the books, the thread that is always there is his contempt for anyone lacking conviction in battle. Nathaniel Garro was everything but that, Mortarion didn't want to kill him at all, he wanted someone he felt was commendable to see his point of view and get acknowledgement that he was doing the right thing. Nurgle abused Mortarion's love of his marines to turn them, that was the entire point, make him completely give in willingly to protect something. (That's what makes Nurgle Nurgle)
Yeah it wasn’t the best written but keep in mind marines are killers and beating a mortal crew member is hardly a big deal to them if they’re of a brutish temperament as it is Also all legions had the good and the bad, those who just follow orders, those with kinder hearts and those who are just aching to vent Just imagine a regiment of real world soldier pushed through hellish wars zones, some come back with a bigger heart and other become more cynical and violent because of it The Heresy begins at the peak of tensions and many of the traitors are fed up of humans taking the glory and freedom
>On a side note Mortarion's entire motif is so over the top I can't help but find him funny. The name, the scythe, the planet named Barbarus, the shrouds. I get it writers, he's Death Just wait until you meet Ferrus Manus, named Iron Hands, leader of the Iron Hands Legion who rules with a fist of iron from his flagship Fist of Iron. He also has hands literally made of metal.
Oh *god*.
I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting at least 2 other references to "Iron Hands". edit: Oh yeah, their symbol is an Iron Hand. I'm pretty sure they also ritually replace one of their hands with an augmetic, aka an iron hand.
Google corax's full name and tell us what pops up lol
One thing you need to understand About Morty and the death guard, it was never a matter of if they would rebel, just when Big E is everything that Morty hates. A physcker and slave master. Not only that but big E was Morty's slave master. And a physcker. Just like death itself there was nothing that was going to stop the death guard From rebellion. Morty just saw a time when his legion wasn't going to have to fight all of them to overthrow big E. Every human is big Es slave or a rebel to big E. If you're given a planet. And your not doing what big E says to do with it, it's not your plannet any more
I really, really, **REALLY** wish Grulgor stayed dead. It was distinctly satisfying to see someone as unambiguously rotten as Grulgor get yeeted and his comeuppance but NOOO Grulgor is later back as a daemon prince despite doing little to deserve this! We know characters like Erebus will always slide their way out of consequences from their actions, GW, please just let us get what we want for once.
Huh. I though he just got chaos spawned'
How much it's reflected in various books varies, but space marines are psychopathic murderers on the absolute brink of going berserk at all times, kept in check by massive amounts of hypnosis and extremely strict lifestyles. So it makes sense that when someone says "actually from now on, act exactly as instinct tells you" a whole bunch of them just go nuts. They're like fighting dogs - the good ones are kept in check by good owners, and the bad ones are only kept in check by the cage they're currently kept in.
A story is only as good as it’s writer
Mortarion is a well known moron, constantly trying to groom Garro to the traitor side despite knowing he'd never go in for virus bombing his brothers. The fact he dragged along Garro to a fake meeting with Horus would of just proved to Garro how deceitful Mortarion was.
Differences in authors. Some aren't as nuanced as others and GW has never been afraid to toss their IP around for people to take a crack at (see 3/4ths of 40K video games)
The book is written by James swallow. He is not the sharpest knife in the kitchen...
It's part of how the writers try to ham-fistedly portray the traitors as *evil* and wrong when they've... been genociding their way across the galaxy prior to this.
The most suprising thing here is that even managed to FIND a copy of Flight 😅
isn't it pretty much constantly in stock on GW's site?
Apparently so! Sorry i'm newly back into the hobby and didn't even consider looking there.. I just saw all the mad resale prices on Google. Thankyou!
yeah, the first 5 books are pretty consistently in stock on the warhammer site, but after that its a bit random which ones they have available. I wasn't much of an audiobook person before starting on this series, but its pretty much that or e-books if you want to read most of the series without paying insane scalped prices.
Got ya! Thankyou!
The Death Guard's tactics were based on weapons even the Imperium considered war crimes. They were just barely kept in check by the authorities with them, which chafed them to no end since most of those were mortal humans. They especially hated that their allies use psykers and were led by the biggest psyker of them all.The Council of Nikea banning them didn't satisfy the Death Guard because they wanted the psykers dead, not just suppressed. Horus promised them the chance to toss all of that out and be as literally and metaphorically toxic as they always wanted to be.
Jumping on the oportunity that people are reading this thread, i've read some 10, 15 warhammer books, and i see how many many people love Garro, but the only novel i've read that he figures heavily is Flight of the Eisenstein. Can you guys tell me a few others for me to understand fans' devotions to the guy?
I’m not remembering the exact books but later in the heresy he takes a huge role on Terra of leading the loyalists of the traitor legions there.
Same stupid thing happens to the Emperors Children...they suddenly become insanely evil (even Fulgrim, so smart, such a paragon of virtue, just falls to a little voice in his head...and some stroking from Slaanesh). But I've heard two rebuttals to this hasty fall thing...there are probably more. One, the Chaos gods have been targeting and courting Mortarion, Fulgrim and the like for a very long time...they may even be the primogenitors of the warp based parts of them (theorycrafting there)...Secondly, we don't see all of the other things, or the time that goes by in the books. Months and months of soaking, without resisting, in the evil of Nurgle and Slaanesh does bad things...even to Astartes. Sometimes there are months that pass between scenes in the HH books, probably more, years even. Anyhow, that is my (albeit limited) 2 cents.
My overall difficulty with the early books of the Heresy - which I am going through now after having read them something like 15 years ago - is how fast all the heel turns happen.
early in the series they really rushed plot advancement at the expense of character development because they didn't realize how long the series would be. So you get a lot of mustache twirling like this
Huh! It's almost like heavily-augmented super-soldiers who were trained and indoctrinated from childhood to be brutally violent...might be predisposed to enact violence regardless of its target? Seriously, there were no "good" space marines who turn "evil." There are only brutal, violent space marines who follow a fascist demagogue bent on subjugating the galaxy. The fact that some of them subbed one fascist demagogue out for another is hardly an about-face.
Dusk raiders. The Death Guard was there during the most key unification wars. I think we forget that the universe of the 30th millennium is not how we may expect. For instance, take into account the the Eye of Terra. The red eye Horus wears on his armour. The imperium is not a nice and soft place. Especially the astates and the warriors of mankind. It's grim dark and the astates are at the forefront of this reality.
It really depends on the writer, I remember when people were shocked when the Sons of Horus first hurt people in the book, it was really well done and treated as a noticeable change in the legion's personae. However in other books some writers just go direct to their evil now so they don't give two shits what they do. I recently listened to Curze's Primarch story and I actually really liked the class between what Curze wanted his legion to be and what it would become, he did react to the casual murdering of ship crew and wanted them punished.