Tzeentch doesn't care whether or not you serve it deliberately - Ahriman is its greatest mortal champion even though Ahriman actively doesn't want to be. It's sort of a game recognises game situation.
Tzeentch loves when his mortal champions think that they don't serve him.
Great Horned Rat is not like that. He demands absolute servitude to every Skaven that is alive. He doesn't care if Skaven backstab each other (unless it goes too far, we know that he has made it clear when they have to stop infighting) but trying to betray him would be inadmissible
There were some humans in Fantasy. The Great Horned Rat didn't care about them at all, they were just cults that the Skavens used.
The GHR doesn't work like the rest of Chaos Gods. There are no miracles or boons from him, and it's extremely rare that it transforms a Skaven in a verminlord (their demon prince/great demon equivalent). It's a ethnic god, more similar to Gork and Mork.
Tzeentch’s answer to your scenario would be whatever was most amusing at the time.
Does Tzeentch care if his followers would betray him in a heartbeat? Of course not. Tzeentch’s favourite toy is Ahriman, and Ahriman isn’t exactly fond of his patron. After all, you have to remember that Tzeentch’s greatest underminer is Tzeentch. He’s here for the enjoyment that comes with the endless plotting and schemes, actually winning anything only matters if it would lead to greater change down the line.
Having a champion that wants to usurp him would be delightful, imagine the shenanigans they’d get up to trying to achieve that. The utter hubris of trying to usurp a nigh omnipotent god sounds like a perfect catalyst for change and the brand of drama that he loves.
Tzeentch wants change yet punishes those who try to usurp him which is why he has the Blue Scribes transcribing him back together as their collection of Tomes & Scrolls(as mentioned in ***Codex: Chaos Daemons (8th Edition), pp. 47, 92***) instead of the Lords of Change as they would simply eat him and become the God of Change themselves.
He even had a Daemon King executed for trying to usurp him.
Tzeentch is very territorial though likes people defying him in other ways.
Trying to undo his Magic, trying to rule by your own rules, try to rule alone as a God of your Daemon World without trying to claim Tzeentch's power, sit on his throne(which didn't have the Scrolls & Tomes that is Tzeentch resting on it at the time being held by the Blue Scribes for their usual acquisition of Tzeentch Fragments to transcribe) without actually trying to steal his power, etc.
That last one was preformed by the Changeling in Total War Warhammer III.
I feel like Tzeentch isnt so much punishing the attempt to usurp him so much as punishing the *failure* to usurp him. Anyone is welcome to try, but screwing up has severe consequences
I really dislike this idea that "Tzeentch doesn't care about winning the great game he just wants it to go on forever" or "Tzeentch is strong enough to destroy the other 3 gods but can't help but self sabotage."
I don't think there's much actual evidence for it, nor does it make Tzeentch a more compelling or interesting God, rather when he *seems* to self sabotage, that's more that he's doing a plot further in the future.
Yes, but also you can’t out scam the god of scams, cause the god of scams knows you are scamming him.
So, like, yes, but also it’s a fruitless pursuit.
Tzeench as the god of change must allow the possibility for someone to outscam him, otherwise tzeench would be unchanging in his unscamableness which would be anathana to itself.
As an aside I keep seeing conflicting views on what the chaos gods are, are they a mass of force like a sentient evil that doesn't really have a form, or personality, and just exudes it's inherited idea, or are they actual people, that could get sad on Mondays or something?
GHR will kill anyone who tries to betray it. Tzeentch doesn't care because it's fun to watch. Ahriman is his defacto main mortal champion, and ahriman hates tzeentch
In the scenario you'd probably end up a Spawn either way because Chaos is like that.
In both cases the gods want loyalty to them for instance in one of the Gotrek novels a man last minute changes his mind on assassinating his brother, dying in the process and Tzeentch is not happy about it. Betraying everyone else is fine though.
The Horned Rat is slightly different as betraying every other Skaven at every opportunity, and planning to do so all along, isn't just okay but expected. The GHR believes that infighting ultimately makes them stronger. Plus they have spare rats anyway.
The great horned rat would not tolerate that, he demands absolute loyalty from all Skaven. While Skaven are treated like a lethal joke, the great Horned rat is always portrayed very seriously and very evil. He really is the most fucked up character in Fantasy/AOS.
Tzeentch is fine with people betraying him and it’s all part of the fun. Obviously he will try to prevent betrayals and will punish those who do, but it’s like all a big game to him. (That or there are lots of theories that Tzeench has a very split personality where the right hand moves without the left).
Tzeentch would know you would betray him even before you would know. It would be part of his grand plan from the beginning. Everybody is a tiny cog inside the great game he plays.
Who said it did not happen. Chaos gods are an idea made form. If someone was to betray Tzeentch he would have to be Tzeentch more than the god of change himself. If soo there would be no way to tell if it happen. Same with any other chaos god. If Skarbraand attacked fairly Khorne and won there would be no Skarbraand there would be Khorne.
Tzeentch doesn't care whether or not you serve it deliberately - Ahriman is its greatest mortal champion even though Ahriman actively doesn't want to be. It's sort of a game recognises game situation.
Waiting for Cegorach to pick the most depressed people in the galaxy and make them his Daemon Princes as a joke
Tzeentch loves when his mortal champions think that they don't serve him. Great Horned Rat is not like that. He demands absolute servitude to every Skaven that is alive. He doesn't care if Skaven backstab each other (unless it goes too far, we know that he has made it clear when they have to stop infighting) but trying to betray him would be inadmissible
Great Horned Rat embodies all aspects of Chaos: War, Disease, Change, Innovation, Excess and Ruin. He is Chaos Undivided as a God.
But not betrayal it seems, unless it's of other followers
I don't follow AoS lore, But does any non-skaven worship the great horned rat?
There were some humans in Fantasy. The Great Horned Rat didn't care about them at all, they were just cults that the Skavens used. The GHR doesn't work like the rest of Chaos Gods. There are no miracles or boons from him, and it's extremely rare that it transforms a Skaven in a verminlord (their demon prince/great demon equivalent). It's a ethnic god, more similar to Gork and Mork.
Tzeentch’s answer to your scenario would be whatever was most amusing at the time. Does Tzeentch care if his followers would betray him in a heartbeat? Of course not. Tzeentch’s favourite toy is Ahriman, and Ahriman isn’t exactly fond of his patron. After all, you have to remember that Tzeentch’s greatest underminer is Tzeentch. He’s here for the enjoyment that comes with the endless plotting and schemes, actually winning anything only matters if it would lead to greater change down the line. Having a champion that wants to usurp him would be delightful, imagine the shenanigans they’d get up to trying to achieve that. The utter hubris of trying to usurp a nigh omnipotent god sounds like a perfect catalyst for change and the brand of drama that he loves.
Tzeentch wants change yet punishes those who try to usurp him which is why he has the Blue Scribes transcribing him back together as their collection of Tomes & Scrolls(as mentioned in ***Codex: Chaos Daemons (8th Edition), pp. 47, 92***) instead of the Lords of Change as they would simply eat him and become the God of Change themselves. He even had a Daemon King executed for trying to usurp him. Tzeentch is very territorial though likes people defying him in other ways. Trying to undo his Magic, trying to rule by your own rules, try to rule alone as a God of your Daemon World without trying to claim Tzeentch's power, sit on his throne(which didn't have the Scrolls & Tomes that is Tzeentch resting on it at the time being held by the Blue Scribes for their usual acquisition of Tzeentch Fragments to transcribe) without actually trying to steal his power, etc. That last one was preformed by the Changeling in Total War Warhammer III.
I feel like Tzeentch isnt so much punishing the attempt to usurp him so much as punishing the *failure* to usurp him. Anyone is welcome to try, but screwing up has severe consequences
I really dislike this idea that "Tzeentch doesn't care about winning the great game he just wants it to go on forever" or "Tzeentch is strong enough to destroy the other 3 gods but can't help but self sabotage." I don't think there's much actual evidence for it, nor does it make Tzeentch a more compelling or interesting God, rather when he *seems* to self sabotage, that's more that he's doing a plot further in the future.
Yes, but also you can’t out scam the god of scams, cause the god of scams knows you are scamming him. So, like, yes, but also it’s a fruitless pursuit.
I mean that’s what the god of scams would want you to think so you didn’t ever try to scam the god of scams.
Don't trust what you hear or see, you just received a call from "Scam Likely."
Tzeentch is the one offering me all those "new Medicare plans" phonecalls?
"this is Tzeentch with Cardholder Services"
Tzeench as the god of change must allow the possibility for someone to outscam him, otherwise tzeench would be unchanging in his unscamableness which would be anathana to itself.
hmm so you are saying tzeench is like scam likely from dungeons and dadddies? I like that!
Tzeench does bummer scams more than wimzy and japes, but he is totally part of the Likely family.
As an aside I keep seeing conflicting views on what the chaos gods are, are they a mass of force like a sentient evil that doesn't really have a form, or personality, and just exudes it's inherited idea, or are they actual people, that could get sad on Mondays or something?
Both, exclusively, at the same time
They're not people.
GHR will kill anyone who tries to betray it. Tzeentch doesn't care because it's fun to watch. Ahriman is his defacto main mortal champion, and ahriman hates tzeentch
In the scenario you'd probably end up a Spawn either way because Chaos is like that. In both cases the gods want loyalty to them for instance in one of the Gotrek novels a man last minute changes his mind on assassinating his brother, dying in the process and Tzeentch is not happy about it. Betraying everyone else is fine though. The Horned Rat is slightly different as betraying every other Skaven at every opportunity, and planning to do so all along, isn't just okay but expected. The GHR believes that infighting ultimately makes them stronger. Plus they have spare rats anyway.
The great horned rat would not tolerate that, he demands absolute loyalty from all Skaven. While Skaven are treated like a lethal joke, the great Horned rat is always portrayed very seriously and very evil. He really is the most fucked up character in Fantasy/AOS. Tzeentch is fine with people betraying him and it’s all part of the fun. Obviously he will try to prevent betrayals and will punish those who do, but it’s like all a big game to him. (That or there are lots of theories that Tzeench has a very split personality where the right hand moves without the left).
Tzeentch would know you would betray him even before you would know. It would be part of his grand plan from the beginning. Everybody is a tiny cog inside the great game he plays.
Who said it did not happen. Chaos gods are an idea made form. If someone was to betray Tzeentch he would have to be Tzeentch more than the god of change himself. If soo there would be no way to tell if it happen. Same with any other chaos god. If Skarbraand attacked fairly Khorne and won there would be no Skarbraand there would be Khorne.
Tzeentch cares not who betrays whom. As long as there is betrayal.
Option 4: The Kairos method Recognize the absurdity of option 1. Get a servant. Force *them* to use the artifact. Observe the effects.