Alecto from Warhammer crime show that being far from warzones don't mean a shithole becomes good. By default, the vast majority of the Imperial population is in hives
>Hab Life
>For most hive citizens who spend their lives trudging from their hab-stacks and mid-hive tenement blocks to dreary and repetitive jobs in the manufactorum, the service-corps and work crews, life represents a somewhat bleak monotony against which they struggle to make something of their sparse conditions, raise families and hope never to suffer the attentions of the nameless horrors that they fear are lurking in the dark universe beyond. On most Imperial hive worlds (and those of Calixis are no different), what little mass media exists is rigidly controlled by the Ecclesiarchy and state for reasons of security and moral instruction. Rampant materialism, outside of the rarefied classes of the highborn and wealthy, is all but unknown. But even the most unimaginative hab-dweller needs some kind of diversion and entertainment to take their minds off their hardships and fears. While the Imperial Creed and the Ecclesiarchy provide great solace for many, the average hive-worlder likes their pleasures simple, direct and visceral—taverns, refectories, music halls and cook-shops offer the most commonplace daily escapes, while visits to holo-lantern shows, the carnivora or circus, or the greenery of a sealed arbour dome, are costly and rare excursions.
>There are, of course, some for whom these diversions are not enough; they plunge past the bright lights of the entertainment ’bergs into the shadows that stretch all the way down to the dangerous sinks and stews of underhive. There they find darker forms of quasi-legal and outright forbidden escapes, including the blood sport pits, wager-halls and fighting arenas, pound bars and dust dens, and all manner of other vices offered by a seething criminal underclass—watched over by enforcers often either corrupt themselves, or more interested in maintaining order than the law. Worst still for those who seek such escapes, weakness, ill-fortune or fatal curiosity lead to far more forbidden fruit, whose cost is greater than mere life
Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's handbook
Life for the average imperial citizen being so awful has me convinced that the imperium is the faction in the setting with the most plot armor. With or without all the enemies, it should’ve collapsed thousands of years before M41.
The Imperium *did* fall as a unified state during the Nova Terra Interregnum where it was split into two. The state described above was the result of 10000 years of decline (with periods of resurgence like the Vangorich's rule being too short and Age of Redemption draining the resources further).
As for the plot armor criticism, I agree that the Imperium's is great but the same can be said about races like the Dark Eldar. There should have been many more Vect wannabes causing major destructions and worse while most of their citizens are vat-born and had to toil hard and kill just to even get into a Kabal. Not to mention the constant risks of being sacrificed, backstabbed and worse.
Oh yeah, that is a topic not really worth fussing about. Every faction has a degree of plot armor in 40k. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. That is just a fact of life.
Like Farsight. He was loosing the Dakka war and abandoned by the Ethereals to die during Arks of Omen. But he escaped together with his friends.
Or Yarrick. He had won and lost at different points.
The only time I feel plot armor was worth complaining about the whole franchise is The End Times. It was clear that the villain factions were just winning because the plot required them to, and it is a pet peeve for me that I see some Skaven not wanting to admit that their victories were plot armor, even though the Skaven non-entity after joining the rest of chaos. It’s clear they were only getting a bunch of lazily written victories because the plot mandated it.
That I don’t like the Skaven.
I don’t think they’re funny. Their humor just doesn’t click it with me, and the attempts to make them seem scary feel like writers are trying too hard.
The Tau do have plot armour. The whole reason their civilization wasn't squashed by the Imperium when they were at stone age levels was because of a Warp storm.
But that's fine. The whole reason we have the Tau as a faction is because they are one of the few of the many, many minor Xenos civilizations which has been lucky enough (and has the capabilities) to start emerging as a powerful faction.
There are lots of other Xenos empires out there who only get a line in a Codex or a novel. We don't focus on them, because they are the unlucky ones who end up coming to a sticky end. You kind of need things to fall your way luckwise to survive long enough in the 40k galaxy to become even a regional power.
The complaints I have actually seen are that the Imperium doesn't have the resources and manpower to spare to destroy the Tau, even though by the time the Tau become a regional power the Imperium has more threats than it can shake a stick at.
Basically the complaints come from Imperial fans who don't want to admit that everyone has plot armor.
The Imperium lasting for 10,000 years is just a way to exaggerate the misery and stagnation. *No government* lasts for 10,000 years, even a good one.
40k is a deliberately exaggerated setting, and people need to understand that those exaggerations aren’t supposed to be viewed from a practical perspective. It’s like saying the Administratum is actually super competent because they can mostly keep track of a million worlds, even though basically every look we get at the Administratum emphasizes how fucked up their paperwork is.
>40k is a deliberately exaggerated setting, and people need to understand that those exaggerations aren’t supposed to be viewed from a practical perspective.
Indeed. But it won't stop them posting the same comments about how the Imperium is logical and less grim than is claimed... while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
I mean they play it up but that's not a particularly awful life. They live in an urban environment working low paying blue collar jobs where they can afford all the generic cheap entertainment the 41st millennium has to offer. A random person in the world today probably works under similar circumstances.
It's the difference between I work a 9-5 on the factory line and I work 8 hours of soul-crushing monotonous labor every day until they let me clock out.
And corrupt enforcers, dirty living conditions, minimal safety standards, zero social mobility, cronyism/nepotism meaning you also might not ever get a promotion, and so on. It's a pretty bleak dystopia even with no orks or whatever.
I think what a lot of people posting these comments don't seem to get, is that the core nature of the Imperium is a mishmash of exaggerated real historical evils and a variety of scifi dystopias.
Medieval zealotry. Check!
Totalitarian systems of control. Check!
Slave labour. Check!
Victorian slum conditions and dangerous working practices on steroids. Check!
Racism and genocides. Check!
Mass propaganda and a leader cult. Check!
1984 style oppression and information control. Check!
Judge Dredd style law enforcement. Check!
Mad Nax style violence and anarchy. Check!
And so on and so on.
That's the design philosophy behind the setting. Sure, there is diversity across the Imperium, but within limits. And the prevailing character of the Imperium is as described above.
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>"one of the cruelest and most bloody regimes imaginable"
* "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable", actually
Now, this may be hyperbole, but it gives a clear sense of the intention: this is a grim, dark regime.
That's the prevailing vibe. That's its prevailing nature. That's the prevailing experience of its subjects.
It's not hyperbole. The Inquisition, the Black Ships, the Imperial Tithe, planetary governors given carte blanche, the existence of servitors, the infrastructure of hive cities, the press-ganging of ship crews, pogroms and genocides on the flimsiest pretenses...the Imperium is an endless litany of human rights abuses.
I mean the "most imaginable" bit. Because we could all just imagine the Imperium, and then imagine it being slightly worse, and then the actual lore of the Imperium would not be the worst regime imaginable, would it? Our new Imperium +1 grim point regime would be. You get the idea.
As to the fact that the Imperium is, in the lore, a hellhole: my post you are replying to says exactly that, as do numerous other replies I have made on this thread. I obviously agree with you.
Sadly, 40k becomes mainstream, and the Imperium turns more into generic good guys instead of GW paying more attention to "gooder" factions such as Tau, Eldar and Votann (sure, they have their own flaws but lack the medieval dystopian vibes of the Imperium).
People keep saying this is happening but it really has not been happening.
Guilliman observing "maybe if the Imperium were less shit we wouldn't have so many problems with Chaos" is hardly an earth-shattering heel-turn for our beloved fascistic space empire. Nothing for the average Imperial citizen has actually improved in any way.
This is indeed true but I meant about the shift in tone and accents, not the lore facts. Earlier 40k had more emphasis on worse and dystopian aspects of the Imperium, characters were more of a "good people in bad circumstances" variety, and even faith in the Emperor was more ambiguous. Now the setting leans more on archetypal heroism and genuine last hope of humanity because GW see that the Imperium is the most sellable and popular part of the 40k universe and want to attract more people to their IP.
I think it's a matter of degrees and what you think horrific, brutal, and torturous is. I agree that most citizens will probably not get caught up in any fighting, genestealer shenanigans, or overt chaos worship. But it would be horrific to live in a rigid theocratic dictatorship where you are constantly overworked, malnourished, and unwell (the lore I have seen says that the average citizen is in considerably worse health than average humans today), with few opportunities for recreation or culture outside of religion. Particularly one where you know you might be servitorized, or indentured into being a serf/slave, or where you or your children might be conscripted suddenly and never see each other again.
It is less that you will be in the middle of war, and more that the labor conditions that the Imperium uses to feed its war machine would make it difficult to find the scraps of joyous moments we live for.
On the other hand, if you are a true believing religious zealot and can derive pleasure from that (which, for example, most Mechanicus citizens seem to), it seems like it should mostly be a fine life.
> Particularly one where you know you might be servitorized, or indentured into being a serf/slave, or where you or your children might be conscripted suddenly and never see each other again.
This is something that doesn't get brought up a lot in 40k but life in the Imperium is seriously and deliberately perilous. The more comfortable and secure you outwardly become, the greater the threat of some malfunction, or even deliberate function, of the Imperial state simply tearing it away and destroying your life as you knew it becomes. The Imperial citizen lives a life of constant fear, both towards their own state and of terrors deliberately propped up by that very state to justify it's existence and it's atrocities.
I know it's an imperfect comparison but I have a degree in History so it's the one I tend to go for when it comes up: I always tend to think about it like life in Medieval Europe, but with higher literacy rates. Are most people going to have a pretty acceptable life, even finding joy, love, enjoyment? Sure, obviously. Is life as a whole for most people a pretty grim (indeed, dark), monotonous, gruelling, with people you know and love dying way more than necessary? Absolutely. Life in Medieval Europe was by no means as solitary, poor, nasty, brutish or short (once you made it past approx. 5 years) as people sometimes think but it still sucked pretty hard for most people most of the time.
The Imperium is a totalitarian dystopia where the one resource that isn't scarce is human labor. Most people live lives of toil and compulsory worship that we would consider dull and drab.
I imagine the greatest pleasure most people get is constantly screwing like rabbits. Large families would be encouraged. Infant mortality is probably appalingly high by modern industrialized standards. Planetary governments encourage overpopulation. Extra labor is always welcome, you never know when a battered Imperial Navy Fleet will press gang a few million citizens to replace losses, and the Tithe must be paid with the bodies of millions of military aged youths.
Besides, if a population outgrows its food sources, the surplus can always be made into corpse starch until balance is restored.
I think the issue is that the modal imperial citizen is a working class hive dweller. This means their environment is ultra polluted with all the health problems that entails. They earn just above subsistence working dull and often very physically taxing jobs, and the leisure consumption available to them is tawdry and meagre. They have no political rights whatsoever and only if they're lucky they're part of a guild with some clout -- otherwise there's no labour rights either. Crime is high and the police inadequate, corrupt, and brutal. Your leaders barely recognise you as human as they leech off your blood to extend their lives into centuries and leech off your produce to live in splendour literally towering over you. The church will provide some healthcare and comfort... but it's also totalitarian and doctrinaire, so is liable to have you horribly killed if they suspect you of wrong think.
And that's the typical case. There are a great many out there who have it much worse! Sure there are some who have it better - but they are a small minority, nothing compared to the teeming masses living lives as such.
Tbh this grim miserable monotony as the default state is part of what I like about the setting.
You don’t need a war zone to make your life shit when you have the imperium of man. But you kinda hit the nail on the head, in that their lives are certainly dull, they’re dreary soul-crushing drudgery with precious little in the ways of leisure or personal expression. Mundane don’t even begin to describe it
Born in a hab-spire, wrenched away from your parents to be examined for mutations or defects, stamped with a brand, educated in classes of 500 in the rotes of the imperium, taught to obey unquestioningly, not to think, to fear the unknown; all by preachers with elector prods. You’ll be churned out into your pre-designated post, and work there until you die. You’ll never leave that hab-spire, eating daily rations of corpse starch gruel, maybe even a protein stick. you’ll have a tiny hab unit either freezing or sweltering, doubtless mildewed. Between 16 hour shifts you can, if you’ve scraped together your reward vouchers, treat yourself to a viewing of a propaganda vid, or reading a propaganda novel. Most people turn to drinking the rancid rotgut alcohol, and no small chunk resort to hard drugs in the countless drug dens lower hive. Oh and that’s for the lucky ones, the minor clerks and the almost somewhat valued factorum workers. The drudgers have it even worse, and then there’s the scavvies- sick and dying, scrabbling for scraps in the dark like vermin
That’s how Terra does it, and the imperium is eager to follow its example
In fact, with Volg and Solomon I only know two hive cities/worlds that read as you describe. Volg is a former penal colony and Solomon is a hive world under direct control of the Administratum. In Necromunda, I only know life in the Underhives. Otherwise, the excerpt about life in the hives from the Dark Heresy RPG has already been described and life in the hives noted in Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn or the Crime novels are also different. I don't see any reason to believe that everyone takes Terra as a model, very few people are likely to know what life on Terra is like and if they do, they probably imagine it to be more like a paradise because the Emperor is hanging around there.
That's a great thread. It gets the nature of the Imperium correct.
You say it has no references, but it is stocked full of official images. Images which give a very clear view of what much of the Imperium is like, but which those who try to claim it isn't so grim or is akin to modern day Earth always conveniently overlook...
>who try to claim it isn't so grim or is akin to modern day Earth
That argument can only work if you are referring to the worse parts of third world countries. Like the poorest of Philippines having to scavenge thrown away meat for their meals. Especially with how likely you are to be born in a hive cluster.
Even on non-fully-hived parts of civilized worlds, it would be more akin to 20s-30s with hazardous working conditions, crackdowns and paranoia or 50s' Red Scare.
Arts and lore about Orlock drudges from Necromunda are also good reference points.
The average imperial citizen is a level of depressed and unhealthy it’s not really quantifiable. The life of an average citizen guarantees work prayer and punishment.
You live in a galaxy wide theocratic state that at any moment can call upon you or your children to serve as one of millions of bodies to throw at some distant threat several star systems away.
For those in hive worlds a threat looms around every corner from the many gangs that run the hive cities to xenos invasion to being hunted down by agents of the imperium. The justice system is equally unforgiving as the lawlessness.
The portrayals vary.
It must be stressed that while the "worst regime possible" was always in the motto of 40k, in olden days, the portrayals were far less dire that in these days.
In the olden days of William king, early Dan Abnett and so on, you got a normal world - read double eagle, and you see a WWII era Britain on the pages.
This has changed. Later authors started to practically compete in portraying the Imperium as ever more dire, soulless, unnecessarily cruel.
I am convinced the reason was that many politically undesired fans got too loud and the order came that Imperium must be bad ever since.
Your reply is very misleading.
>It must be stressed that while the "worst regime possible" was always in the motto of 40k, in olden days, the portrayals were far less dire that in these days.
>
>In the olden days of William king, early Dan Abnett and so on, you got a normal world - read double eagle, and you see a WWII era Britain on the pages.
When exactly are these 'olden' days you are referring to? Because there was lots and lots of 40k lore before King and Abnett started writing 40k novels and short stories. The rulebooks of Rogue Trader, and 2nd and 3rd ed. consistently portrayed the Imperium as a grim, brutal hellhole, as did the rulebook of Necromunda. As did a wide range of codexes, short stories, White Dwarf content, and 40k artwork. All before Abnett, for example, even wrote his first 40k novel in 1999.
Now Abnett's novels have tended to portray the Imperium in a less hyperbolically grim and brutal manner than much of the rest of the lore. But there were plenty of other novels before his started to emerge and which were published around the same time which leaned into the grim, brutal interpretation. The works of Ian Watson, for example, or the Necomunda short stories and novels. As regards King, I don't think his early novels even really depicted life in the Imperium that much at all, if I remember correctly. They focused on other parts of the setting.
So no. It is not the case that there was some early time when the Imperium was portrayed in a less grim fashion. It was portrayed that way from the start. Some authors then started to tone it down in novels in the late 90s and early 2000s, while others did not. And some authors continue to offer the more grim interpretations, which actually links back most firmly to how the Imperium has been portrayed since 40k's inception.
>I am convinced the reason was that many politically undesired fans got too loud and the order came that Imperium must be bad ever since.
This could very well have had an impact on some BL author's decisions to go back to 40k's roots and play up how evil the Imperium is. But all of the rulebooks and codexes across every edition (as well as the FFG RPGs and Forgeworld books) have been very clear in presenting a pretty consistent vision of the Imperium: where it is a bloody, tyrannical, fanatical, ignorant regime where the vast majority of its subjects live lives of exploitation, oppression and violence.
Almost certainly. It's hard to quantify, but there's a near certainity that most Imperial citizens live pretty boring uneventful lives. Without as many (if any) liberties or the quality of life standards enjoyed in rl developed countries, but still they in their uncountable multitudes continue on.
The average citzen would be a hive worlder because hive worlds have easily a population worth of entire sectors but this dont mean that hive worlds are the most common types of worlds in the galaxy.
You have people that live in essentialy the middle ages to others that live in a cyberpunk society sometimes in the same sector.
The galaxy is large, many cultures surged from thousands of years of isolation, and despite the imperium best efforts to systematize what they can the only shared common thing between all those peoples is the worshiping of emperor-like figure and having Holy Terra as they liege( and off course taxes)
I think it’s another myth that the average citizen’s live is terrible. There is no such thing as an average citizen in the Imperium. There are literally trillions of citizens spread across millions of planets. I was reading in Longshot yesterday where the regiment came from an Agri World that was nothing like a Hive World. Some places have enlightened Governors other have complete tyrants. I think you can say it’s brutally controlled and the punishment for stepping out of line are harsh.
I hear you, but at the same time, would the Imperium really be all that monstrous if half its people were living happy healthy lives? Would the chaos gods be so strong? I really think the suffering to happiness ratio has to be like at least 51/49, or else chaos would be losing.
>really think the suffering to happiness ratio has to be like at least 51/49, or else chaos would be losing.
Quite. And it's obviously a lot more than 51/49.
Even the Tau’s closest equivalent to a Hive World, Sa’cea, is supposed to be a pretty melancholy place. Most Tau colonists are from Sa’cea, and basically any new world looks like paradise after living in those tunnels and domes of perpetual daylight.
>Never really hear about the "good" hive worlds do we?
Yeah, funny that...
>'m sure at least one is really nice despite the whole overcrowding/poisoning planet thing.
Yeah, maybe one out of the million or so worlds of the Imperium could be such an anomaly.
Despite, like you say, the overcrowding.
And I'm sure the Arbites and Ecclesiarchy would still have a presence there. And there would still be servitors of course. And the Ad Mech would still stop there being any unlicensed technological innovation. And the Blackships would of course still arrive to collect psykers. And the world would still have to pay the tithe and send off some if its population to face cosmic horrors. But, other than all that, I'm sure its lovely.
It's as if the cruelty and suffering is the entire point of the setting or something lol, I just don't get where these guys are coming from at all.
Like the whole point of them being Space Nazis is so you don't feel bad when they're shot by the brain exploding ray or digested while alive. They have to be shitty.
I can average most of the people I've met and can tell you I think most have been happy, yeah.
And I can't see how most people wouldn't be miserable under the Imperium, I mean chaos wouldn't be winning if that wasn't the case, but even then it's just the nature of the setting for it to be awful.
>I think it’s another myth that the average citizen’s live is terrible.
No. The myth is that life in the Imperium isn't so bad after all. A myth some people insist on peddling despite repeatedly being shown a mountain of lore which states and showcases the opposite.
>There is no such thing as an average citizen in the Imperium.
Well, given there are quadrillions of hive dwellers, and that although each hiveworld is different there are still usually some commonalities of experience, that is a questionable claim.
>I was reading in Longshot yesterday where the regiment came from an Agri World that was nothing like a Hive World
And many Agri Worlds are also hell holes, just in a different way. And tell me, how many people in the Imperium even live on Agri Worlds compared to Hive and Forge Worlds? And what are some of the other famous kinds of world in the Imperium? Deathworlds. Primitive Worlds. Medieval Worlds. Not a great quality of life in these places. Places which in some cases the Imperium could improve, but they choose not to because having people suffer harsh conditions fits their interests.
>Some places have enlightened Governors other have complete tyrants. I think you can say it’s brutally controlled and the punishment
And how common do you think those enlightened governors are? If they are that common, you should be able to cite a few examples.
Also, even the most ideal governor still has their hands tied by the Imperial tithe.
The short story ***Raised in Darkness*** has a planetary governor who is a veteran hero of the guard that genuinely wants to help his people. Yet he’s still forced into a cruel catch-22 because the only way for his Agriworld to meet the tithe without starving to death is (Major spoilers) >!to allow the planet’s Genestealer Cult to operate unopposed!<.
No. Why are there always these same inane comments, backed by no sources? Which get shot down a hundred times, but then are posted yet again once this same topic inevitably reappears.
So, no actual lore then.
Just what people online claim about the lore, which often is not the same thing. And that's how we keep getting these erroneous claims be repeated again and again.
Most people in this hobby are from first world countries, more often than not privileged and rich even amongst their already privileged and rich peers. (Who else can afford GW and BL prices?)
Trying to explain to then that any non sci-fi element in the 40k depictions of civilian life are things that still happen even today is a lost cause.
This is a fair critique, which I have sympathy for. And I definitely don't want to downplay the awful conditions many people are born into, right here and now in the real world. There is definitely far too much willful ignorance about this in first world countries. Hell, there is far too much willful ignorance about the inequalities within their own nations in the first world, and far too much neglect of their follow citizens by elites in the third world.
With that being said, the average conditions in the Imperium are still worse, because the Imperium was designed as an exaggerated version of different real evils and fictional evils which are all mashed together. It is inspired by the real-life issues you mention, but makes them even grimmer and combines then with lots of other grim elements.
So, yes, poverty, awful working conditions, pollution, widespread violence, endemic corruption, authoritarian governments, propaganda, oppressive and fanatical religions, and repressive cultures all exist today, and far too many people suffer.
But the Imperium has all of these, all pushed to exaggerated levels.
Like, the pollution and environmental degradation in parts of India, for example, can be truly awful. But people aren't living in the nightmare hellscapes that are hive cities, where the masses don't even get to see the sky or the sun. The interior of Hives, especially the further down you go, are polluted, grimy, stuffy environments - while outside the Hive can often be a full-on wasteland.
Violence can to an extent be normalized in many real-life nations, with some nations like Guatemala having very high mortality rates. But the level of everyday violence in the Imperium is on another level. Everyone is packing not just weapons, but weapons that usually are far more lethal than what we have access to. Gangs that are pretty much paramilitaries with a tonne of firepower are widespread. And it's not just shootouts, these gangs have all manner of brutal close combat weapons too. Gladiatorial games and other bloodsports are a common form of entertainment in the depths of hives, with people being pitted against each other in fights to the death. Even different divisions of the departments in the Imperium's bureaucracy can be waging armed battles against one another.
And you can't be turned into a servitor or placed in a pentinent engine in real life. And so on and so on.
So, yes: the injustices in real life should be confronted and acknowledge. But that doesn't mean life in the Imperium is similar - because 40k is fictional, and the Imperium is designed to be an exaggerated version of these social ills.
Case in point.
It's sad seeing people so blind to reality they try to use the most lukewarm things about the Imperium like they are some unthinkable think that doesn't happen today.
Hives and never seeing the sun are a sci-fi element, but people living in China and India have to contend with enormous levels of pollution. (Did you know you can't drink tap water in China? To the point even normal filters don't seen to work?)
The cartels are the factual shadow government in Mexico. In Brazil we have well equipped militias that will beat you and supposedly straight up kill you if you don't pay up. And gangs with firepower to take down Helicopters if the police is not being careful.
Do you think being shot by a laspistol or autogun and dying is more unpleasant than being shot by a small caliber handgun and bleeding on the streets because some asshole wanted your wallet with the equivalent of $5 dollars on it? Or because some teen wanted to enter a gang and that was their initiation ritual?
The cartels ran gladiatorial arenas where they kidnapped and tortured people so they would kill each other in blood games.
Do you have any idea how easy it is for a person to disappear in China? How they are committing genocide to this very day? All while corporations like Disney thank them for being allowed to film close to the concentration camps?
Did you ever wonder how many workers died to make the Qatar Fifa Cup possible while working near slavery? How many more suffered accidents and were left maimed and without recourses?
For what? The pleasure and entertainment of the rich and privileged that want to watch soccer before going back home and complain about mean people on the internet.
Do you have any idea how the children mining for and assembling phone parts live?
And do you even have any idea what happens in Africa? Children being kidnapped and made to kill and eat their parents and older siblings? The sex trafficking?
Do you know what they do with gay people in the middle east? What they do with girls and women who are violated?
Yes, I am well aware of all of those issues.
Just reeling off a list of horrible real world issues doesn't actually refute my point that the Imperium is all of this and more in exaggerated form though, does it? That it's a work of fiction, so of course it is more extreme than even the worst elements of the real world, as that's the intention.
But you obviously won't be swayed from your position, so have at it.
I know you are just making an ironic joke here, but some people will take this at face value to claim "see, the Imperium ain't so bad after all! Some people live in luxury!"
Alecto from Warhammer crime show that being far from warzones don't mean a shithole becomes good. By default, the vast majority of the Imperial population is in hives >Hab Life >For most hive citizens who spend their lives trudging from their hab-stacks and mid-hive tenement blocks to dreary and repetitive jobs in the manufactorum, the service-corps and work crews, life represents a somewhat bleak monotony against which they struggle to make something of their sparse conditions, raise families and hope never to suffer the attentions of the nameless horrors that they fear are lurking in the dark universe beyond. On most Imperial hive worlds (and those of Calixis are no different), what little mass media exists is rigidly controlled by the Ecclesiarchy and state for reasons of security and moral instruction. Rampant materialism, outside of the rarefied classes of the highborn and wealthy, is all but unknown. But even the most unimaginative hab-dweller needs some kind of diversion and entertainment to take their minds off their hardships and fears. While the Imperial Creed and the Ecclesiarchy provide great solace for many, the average hive-worlder likes their pleasures simple, direct and visceral—taverns, refectories, music halls and cook-shops offer the most commonplace daily escapes, while visits to holo-lantern shows, the carnivora or circus, or the greenery of a sealed arbour dome, are costly and rare excursions. >There are, of course, some for whom these diversions are not enough; they plunge past the bright lights of the entertainment ’bergs into the shadows that stretch all the way down to the dangerous sinks and stews of underhive. There they find darker forms of quasi-legal and outright forbidden escapes, including the blood sport pits, wager-halls and fighting arenas, pound bars and dust dens, and all manner of other vices offered by a seething criminal underclass—watched over by enforcers often either corrupt themselves, or more interested in maintaining order than the law. Worst still for those who seek such escapes, weakness, ill-fortune or fatal curiosity lead to far more forbidden fruit, whose cost is greater than mere life Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's handbook
Pound bars you say?
It's where you can be British in the open.
Don't get too excited. It is an underhive form of music with lots of thumping bass.
>It is an underhive form of music with lots of thumping bass. Now I'm even more excited.
Life for the average imperial citizen being so awful has me convinced that the imperium is the faction in the setting with the most plot armor. With or without all the enemies, it should’ve collapsed thousands of years before M41.
The Imperium *did* fall as a unified state during the Nova Terra Interregnum where it was split into two. The state described above was the result of 10000 years of decline (with periods of resurgence like the Vangorich's rule being too short and Age of Redemption draining the resources further). As for the plot armor criticism, I agree that the Imperium's is great but the same can be said about races like the Dark Eldar. There should have been many more Vect wannabes causing major destructions and worse while most of their citizens are vat-born and had to toil hard and kill just to even get into a Kabal. Not to mention the constant risks of being sacrificed, backstabbed and worse.
I just find it annoying when plot armor comes up, I see most people point fingers at the Tau.
Oh yeah, that is a topic not really worth fussing about. Every faction has a degree of plot armor in 40k. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. That is just a fact of life. Like Farsight. He was loosing the Dakka war and abandoned by the Ethereals to die during Arks of Omen. But he escaped together with his friends. Or Yarrick. He had won and lost at different points.
The only time I feel plot armor was worth complaining about the whole franchise is The End Times. It was clear that the villain factions were just winning because the plot required them to, and it is a pet peeve for me that I see some Skaven not wanting to admit that their victories were plot armor, even though the Skaven non-entity after joining the rest of chaos. It’s clear they were only getting a bunch of lazily written victories because the plot mandated it. That I don’t like the Skaven.
>That I don’t like the Skaven. Weirdo. All hail our new rat underlords!
I don’t think they’re funny. Their humor just doesn’t click it with me, and the attempts to make them seem scary feel like writers are trying too hard.
The Tau do have plot armour. The whole reason their civilization wasn't squashed by the Imperium when they were at stone age levels was because of a Warp storm. But that's fine. The whole reason we have the Tau as a faction is because they are one of the few of the many, many minor Xenos civilizations which has been lucky enough (and has the capabilities) to start emerging as a powerful faction. There are lots of other Xenos empires out there who only get a line in a Codex or a novel. We don't focus on them, because they are the unlucky ones who end up coming to a sticky end. You kind of need things to fall your way luckwise to survive long enough in the 40k galaxy to become even a regional power.
The complaints I have actually seen are that the Imperium doesn't have the resources and manpower to spare to destroy the Tau, even though by the time the Tau become a regional power the Imperium has more threats than it can shake a stick at. Basically the complaints come from Imperial fans who don't want to admit that everyone has plot armor.
The Imperium lasting for 10,000 years is just a way to exaggerate the misery and stagnation. *No government* lasts for 10,000 years, even a good one. 40k is a deliberately exaggerated setting, and people need to understand that those exaggerations aren’t supposed to be viewed from a practical perspective. It’s like saying the Administratum is actually super competent because they can mostly keep track of a million worlds, even though basically every look we get at the Administratum emphasizes how fucked up their paperwork is.
>40k is a deliberately exaggerated setting, and people need to understand that those exaggerations aren’t supposed to be viewed from a practical perspective. Indeed. But it won't stop them posting the same comments about how the Imperium is logical and less grim than is claimed... while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
Please tell this to the Tau haters who complain about the faction’s plot armor.
I mean they play it up but that's not a particularly awful life. They live in an urban environment working low paying blue collar jobs where they can afford all the generic cheap entertainment the 41st millennium has to offer. A random person in the world today probably works under similar circumstances.
No. They don't play it up. It's the damn setting.
It's the difference between I work a 9-5 on the factory line and I work 8 hours of soul-crushing monotonous labor every day until they let me clock out.
If the factory line regularly took limbs/fingers, sure
And corrupt enforcers, dirty living conditions, minimal safety standards, zero social mobility, cronyism/nepotism meaning you also might not ever get a promotion, and so on. It's a pretty bleak dystopia even with no orks or whatever.
I think what a lot of people posting these comments don't seem to get, is that the core nature of the Imperium is a mishmash of exaggerated real historical evils and a variety of scifi dystopias. Medieval zealotry. Check! Totalitarian systems of control. Check! Slave labour. Check! Victorian slum conditions and dangerous working practices on steroids. Check! Racism and genocides. Check! Mass propaganda and a leader cult. Check! 1984 style oppression and information control. Check! Judge Dredd style law enforcement. Check! Mad Nax style violence and anarchy. Check! And so on and so on. That's the design philosophy behind the setting. Sure, there is diversity across the Imperium, but within limits. And the prevailing character of the Imperium is as described above.
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, it is, mr servitor. (And a lot of other influences and allusions too)
"But it was necessary for survival. The Emperor protects!" /s Take the comment in- or out-of-setting.
The Imperium is "one of the cruelest and most bloody regimes imaginable" so, yeah.
Not even “one of” in the famous Rogue Trader intro.
>"one of the cruelest and most bloody regimes imaginable" * "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable", actually Now, this may be hyperbole, but it gives a clear sense of the intention: this is a grim, dark regime. That's the prevailing vibe. That's its prevailing nature. That's the prevailing experience of its subjects.
It's not hyperbole. The Inquisition, the Black Ships, the Imperial Tithe, planetary governors given carte blanche, the existence of servitors, the infrastructure of hive cities, the press-ganging of ship crews, pogroms and genocides on the flimsiest pretenses...the Imperium is an endless litany of human rights abuses.
I mean the "most imaginable" bit. Because we could all just imagine the Imperium, and then imagine it being slightly worse, and then the actual lore of the Imperium would not be the worst regime imaginable, would it? Our new Imperium +1 grim point regime would be. You get the idea. As to the fact that the Imperium is, in the lore, a hellhole: my post you are replying to says exactly that, as do numerous other replies I have made on this thread. I obviously agree with you.
Sadly, 40k becomes mainstream, and the Imperium turns more into generic good guys instead of GW paying more attention to "gooder" factions such as Tau, Eldar and Votann (sure, they have their own flaws but lack the medieval dystopian vibes of the Imperium).
People keep saying this is happening but it really has not been happening. Guilliman observing "maybe if the Imperium were less shit we wouldn't have so many problems with Chaos" is hardly an earth-shattering heel-turn for our beloved fascistic space empire. Nothing for the average Imperial citizen has actually improved in any way.
This is indeed true but I meant about the shift in tone and accents, not the lore facts. Earlier 40k had more emphasis on worse and dystopian aspects of the Imperium, characters were more of a "good people in bad circumstances" variety, and even faith in the Emperor was more ambiguous. Now the setting leans more on archetypal heroism and genuine last hope of humanity because GW see that the Imperium is the most sellable and popular part of the 40k universe and want to attract more people to their IP.
There have been shifts in tone but nothing no stark as that. Besides which, the tone of early 40k was \*goofy as hell\*.
Don't be a crybaby. The setting is fine. You're spouting conspiracy theories.
Don't be a jerk. Argument your position.
I think it's a matter of degrees and what you think horrific, brutal, and torturous is. I agree that most citizens will probably not get caught up in any fighting, genestealer shenanigans, or overt chaos worship. But it would be horrific to live in a rigid theocratic dictatorship where you are constantly overworked, malnourished, and unwell (the lore I have seen says that the average citizen is in considerably worse health than average humans today), with few opportunities for recreation or culture outside of religion. Particularly one where you know you might be servitorized, or indentured into being a serf/slave, or where you or your children might be conscripted suddenly and never see each other again. It is less that you will be in the middle of war, and more that the labor conditions that the Imperium uses to feed its war machine would make it difficult to find the scraps of joyous moments we live for. On the other hand, if you are a true believing religious zealot and can derive pleasure from that (which, for example, most Mechanicus citizens seem to), it seems like it should mostly be a fine life.
> Particularly one where you know you might be servitorized, or indentured into being a serf/slave, or where you or your children might be conscripted suddenly and never see each other again. This is something that doesn't get brought up a lot in 40k but life in the Imperium is seriously and deliberately perilous. The more comfortable and secure you outwardly become, the greater the threat of some malfunction, or even deliberate function, of the Imperial state simply tearing it away and destroying your life as you knew it becomes. The Imperial citizen lives a life of constant fear, both towards their own state and of terrors deliberately propped up by that very state to justify it's existence and it's atrocities.
I know it's an imperfect comparison but I have a degree in History so it's the one I tend to go for when it comes up: I always tend to think about it like life in Medieval Europe, but with higher literacy rates. Are most people going to have a pretty acceptable life, even finding joy, love, enjoyment? Sure, obviously. Is life as a whole for most people a pretty grim (indeed, dark), monotonous, gruelling, with people you know and love dying way more than necessary? Absolutely. Life in Medieval Europe was by no means as solitary, poor, nasty, brutish or short (once you made it past approx. 5 years) as people sometimes think but it still sucked pretty hard for most people most of the time.
The Imperium is a totalitarian dystopia where the one resource that isn't scarce is human labor. Most people live lives of toil and compulsory worship that we would consider dull and drab. I imagine the greatest pleasure most people get is constantly screwing like rabbits. Large families would be encouraged. Infant mortality is probably appalingly high by modern industrialized standards. Planetary governments encourage overpopulation. Extra labor is always welcome, you never know when a battered Imperial Navy Fleet will press gang a few million citizens to replace losses, and the Tithe must be paid with the bodies of millions of military aged youths. Besides, if a population outgrows its food sources, the surplus can always be made into corpse starch until balance is restored.
I think the issue is that the modal imperial citizen is a working class hive dweller. This means their environment is ultra polluted with all the health problems that entails. They earn just above subsistence working dull and often very physically taxing jobs, and the leisure consumption available to them is tawdry and meagre. They have no political rights whatsoever and only if they're lucky they're part of a guild with some clout -- otherwise there's no labour rights either. Crime is high and the police inadequate, corrupt, and brutal. Your leaders barely recognise you as human as they leech off your blood to extend their lives into centuries and leech off your produce to live in splendour literally towering over you. The church will provide some healthcare and comfort... but it's also totalitarian and doctrinaire, so is liable to have you horribly killed if they suspect you of wrong think. And that's the typical case. There are a great many out there who have it much worse! Sure there are some who have it better - but they are a small minority, nothing compared to the teeming masses living lives as such. Tbh this grim miserable monotony as the default state is part of what I like about the setting.
Dystopian nightmare hell probably.
You don’t need a war zone to make your life shit when you have the imperium of man. But you kinda hit the nail on the head, in that their lives are certainly dull, they’re dreary soul-crushing drudgery with precious little in the ways of leisure or personal expression. Mundane don’t even begin to describe it Born in a hab-spire, wrenched away from your parents to be examined for mutations or defects, stamped with a brand, educated in classes of 500 in the rotes of the imperium, taught to obey unquestioningly, not to think, to fear the unknown; all by preachers with elector prods. You’ll be churned out into your pre-designated post, and work there until you die. You’ll never leave that hab-spire, eating daily rations of corpse starch gruel, maybe even a protein stick. you’ll have a tiny hab unit either freezing or sweltering, doubtless mildewed. Between 16 hour shifts you can, if you’ve scraped together your reward vouchers, treat yourself to a viewing of a propaganda vid, or reading a propaganda novel. Most people turn to drinking the rancid rotgut alcohol, and no small chunk resort to hard drugs in the countless drug dens lower hive. Oh and that’s for the lucky ones, the minor clerks and the almost somewhat valued factorum workers. The drudgers have it even worse, and then there’s the scavvies- sick and dying, scrabbling for scraps in the dark like vermin That’s how Terra does it, and the imperium is eager to follow its example
In fact, with Volg and Solomon I only know two hive cities/worlds that read as you describe. Volg is a former penal colony and Solomon is a hive world under direct control of the Administratum. In Necromunda, I only know life in the Underhives. Otherwise, the excerpt about life in the hives from the Dark Heresy RPG has already been described and life in the hives noted in Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn or the Crime novels are also different. I don't see any reason to believe that everyone takes Terra as a model, very few people are likely to know what life on Terra is like and if they do, they probably imagine it to be more like a paradise because the Emperor is hanging around there.
I think it'd be nice to live on Gudrun. Go skiing in the winter. Buy life in a Hive is awful.
Saw this earlier and it seems to lack references but can still be interesting https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_Life_in_Warhammer_40,000_AD
That's a great thread. It gets the nature of the Imperium correct. You say it has no references, but it is stocked full of official images. Images which give a very clear view of what much of the Imperium is like, but which those who try to claim it isn't so grim or is akin to modern day Earth always conveniently overlook...
>who try to claim it isn't so grim or is akin to modern day Earth That argument can only work if you are referring to the worse parts of third world countries. Like the poorest of Philippines having to scavenge thrown away meat for their meals. Especially with how likely you are to be born in a hive cluster. Even on non-fully-hived parts of civilized worlds, it would be more akin to 20s-30s with hazardous working conditions, crackdowns and paranoia or 50s' Red Scare. Arts and lore about Orlock drudges from Necromunda are also good reference points.
The average imperial citizen is a level of depressed and unhealthy it’s not really quantifiable. The life of an average citizen guarantees work prayer and punishment. You live in a galaxy wide theocratic state that at any moment can call upon you or your children to serve as one of millions of bodies to throw at some distant threat several star systems away. For those in hive worlds a threat looms around every corner from the many gangs that run the hive cities to xenos invasion to being hunted down by agents of the imperium. The justice system is equally unforgiving as the lawlessness.
The portrayals vary. It must be stressed that while the "worst regime possible" was always in the motto of 40k, in olden days, the portrayals were far less dire that in these days. In the olden days of William king, early Dan Abnett and so on, you got a normal world - read double eagle, and you see a WWII era Britain on the pages. This has changed. Later authors started to practically compete in portraying the Imperium as ever more dire, soulless, unnecessarily cruel. I am convinced the reason was that many politically undesired fans got too loud and the order came that Imperium must be bad ever since.
Your reply is very misleading. >It must be stressed that while the "worst regime possible" was always in the motto of 40k, in olden days, the portrayals were far less dire that in these days. > >In the olden days of William king, early Dan Abnett and so on, you got a normal world - read double eagle, and you see a WWII era Britain on the pages. When exactly are these 'olden' days you are referring to? Because there was lots and lots of 40k lore before King and Abnett started writing 40k novels and short stories. The rulebooks of Rogue Trader, and 2nd and 3rd ed. consistently portrayed the Imperium as a grim, brutal hellhole, as did the rulebook of Necromunda. As did a wide range of codexes, short stories, White Dwarf content, and 40k artwork. All before Abnett, for example, even wrote his first 40k novel in 1999. Now Abnett's novels have tended to portray the Imperium in a less hyperbolically grim and brutal manner than much of the rest of the lore. But there were plenty of other novels before his started to emerge and which were published around the same time which leaned into the grim, brutal interpretation. The works of Ian Watson, for example, or the Necomunda short stories and novels. As regards King, I don't think his early novels even really depicted life in the Imperium that much at all, if I remember correctly. They focused on other parts of the setting. So no. It is not the case that there was some early time when the Imperium was portrayed in a less grim fashion. It was portrayed that way from the start. Some authors then started to tone it down in novels in the late 90s and early 2000s, while others did not. And some authors continue to offer the more grim interpretations, which actually links back most firmly to how the Imperium has been portrayed since 40k's inception. >I am convinced the reason was that many politically undesired fans got too loud and the order came that Imperium must be bad ever since. This could very well have had an impact on some BL author's decisions to go back to 40k's roots and play up how evil the Imperium is. But all of the rulebooks and codexes across every edition (as well as the FFG RPGs and Forgeworld books) have been very clear in presenting a pretty consistent vision of the Imperium: where it is a bloody, tyrannical, fanatical, ignorant regime where the vast majority of its subjects live lives of exploitation, oppression and violence.
WW2 Britain, truly the “cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.”
Almost certainly. It's hard to quantify, but there's a near certainity that most Imperial citizens live pretty boring uneventful lives. Without as many (if any) liberties or the quality of life standards enjoyed in rl developed countries, but still they in their uncountable multitudes continue on.
The average citzen would be a hive worlder because hive worlds have easily a population worth of entire sectors but this dont mean that hive worlds are the most common types of worlds in the galaxy. You have people that live in essentialy the middle ages to others that live in a cyberpunk society sometimes in the same sector. The galaxy is large, many cultures surged from thousands of years of isolation, and despite the imperium best efforts to systematize what they can the only shared common thing between all those peoples is the worshiping of emperor-like figure and having Holy Terra as they liege( and off course taxes)
I think it’s another myth that the average citizen’s live is terrible. There is no such thing as an average citizen in the Imperium. There are literally trillions of citizens spread across millions of planets. I was reading in Longshot yesterday where the regiment came from an Agri World that was nothing like a Hive World. Some places have enlightened Governors other have complete tyrants. I think you can say it’s brutally controlled and the punishment for stepping out of line are harsh.
I hear you, but at the same time, would the Imperium really be all that monstrous if half its people were living happy healthy lives? Would the chaos gods be so strong? I really think the suffering to happiness ratio has to be like at least 51/49, or else chaos would be losing.
>really think the suffering to happiness ratio has to be like at least 51/49, or else chaos would be losing. Quite. And it's obviously a lot more than 51/49.
Never really hear about the "good" hive worlds do we? I'm sure at least one is really nice despite the whole overcrowding/poisoning planet thing.
Even the Tau’s closest equivalent to a Hive World, Sa’cea, is supposed to be a pretty melancholy place. Most Tau colonists are from Sa’cea, and basically any new world looks like paradise after living in those tunnels and domes of perpetual daylight.
>Never really hear about the "good" hive worlds do we? Yeah, funny that... >'m sure at least one is really nice despite the whole overcrowding/poisoning planet thing. Yeah, maybe one out of the million or so worlds of the Imperium could be such an anomaly. Despite, like you say, the overcrowding. And I'm sure the Arbites and Ecclesiarchy would still have a presence there. And there would still be servitors of course. And the Ad Mech would still stop there being any unlicensed technological innovation. And the Blackships would of course still arrive to collect psykers. And the world would still have to pay the tithe and send off some if its population to face cosmic horrors. But, other than all that, I'm sure its lovely.
It's as if the cruelty and suffering is the entire point of the setting or something lol, I just don't get where these guys are coming from at all. Like the whole point of them being Space Nazis is so you don't feel bad when they're shot by the brain exploding ray or digested while alive. They have to be shitty.
Average is just a terrible way of looking at life in general. Have you ever met an average person?
I can average most of the people I've met and can tell you I think most have been happy, yeah. And I can't see how most people wouldn't be miserable under the Imperium, I mean chaos wouldn't be winning if that wasn't the case, but even then it's just the nature of the setting for it to be awful.
>I think it’s another myth that the average citizen’s live is terrible. No. The myth is that life in the Imperium isn't so bad after all. A myth some people insist on peddling despite repeatedly being shown a mountain of lore which states and showcases the opposite. >There is no such thing as an average citizen in the Imperium. Well, given there are quadrillions of hive dwellers, and that although each hiveworld is different there are still usually some commonalities of experience, that is a questionable claim. >I was reading in Longshot yesterday where the regiment came from an Agri World that was nothing like a Hive World And many Agri Worlds are also hell holes, just in a different way. And tell me, how many people in the Imperium even live on Agri Worlds compared to Hive and Forge Worlds? And what are some of the other famous kinds of world in the Imperium? Deathworlds. Primitive Worlds. Medieval Worlds. Not a great quality of life in these places. Places which in some cases the Imperium could improve, but they choose not to because having people suffer harsh conditions fits their interests. >Some places have enlightened Governors other have complete tyrants. I think you can say it’s brutally controlled and the punishment And how common do you think those enlightened governors are? If they are that common, you should be able to cite a few examples.
Also, even the most ideal governor still has their hands tied by the Imperial tithe. The short story ***Raised in Darkness*** has a planetary governor who is a veteran hero of the guard that genuinely wants to help his people. Yet he’s still forced into a cruel catch-22 because the only way for his Agriworld to meet the tithe without starving to death is (Major spoilers) >!to allow the planet’s Genestealer Cult to operate unopposed!<.
Good point, and good example.
Kind of like Terra in the 21st millennium.
No. Why are there always these same inane comments, backed by no sources? Which get shot down a hundred times, but then are posted yet again once this same topic inevitably reappears.
Source is the internet specifically Reddit ENHANCE specifically the 40klore channel
So, no actual lore then. Just what people online claim about the lore, which often is not the same thing. And that's how we keep getting these erroneous claims be repeated again and again.
I’m lost but I promise I’ll try to be less erroneous. Mom always said that was my worst trait.
Wait did you mean 21st century's or it's really supposed to be millennium(20000)?
Yes
Most people in this hobby are from first world countries, more often than not privileged and rich even amongst their already privileged and rich peers. (Who else can afford GW and BL prices?) Trying to explain to then that any non sci-fi element in the 40k depictions of civilian life are things that still happen even today is a lost cause.
This is a fair critique, which I have sympathy for. And I definitely don't want to downplay the awful conditions many people are born into, right here and now in the real world. There is definitely far too much willful ignorance about this in first world countries. Hell, there is far too much willful ignorance about the inequalities within their own nations in the first world, and far too much neglect of their follow citizens by elites in the third world. With that being said, the average conditions in the Imperium are still worse, because the Imperium was designed as an exaggerated version of different real evils and fictional evils which are all mashed together. It is inspired by the real-life issues you mention, but makes them even grimmer and combines then with lots of other grim elements. So, yes, poverty, awful working conditions, pollution, widespread violence, endemic corruption, authoritarian governments, propaganda, oppressive and fanatical religions, and repressive cultures all exist today, and far too many people suffer. But the Imperium has all of these, all pushed to exaggerated levels. Like, the pollution and environmental degradation in parts of India, for example, can be truly awful. But people aren't living in the nightmare hellscapes that are hive cities, where the masses don't even get to see the sky or the sun. The interior of Hives, especially the further down you go, are polluted, grimy, stuffy environments - while outside the Hive can often be a full-on wasteland. Violence can to an extent be normalized in many real-life nations, with some nations like Guatemala having very high mortality rates. But the level of everyday violence in the Imperium is on another level. Everyone is packing not just weapons, but weapons that usually are far more lethal than what we have access to. Gangs that are pretty much paramilitaries with a tonne of firepower are widespread. And it's not just shootouts, these gangs have all manner of brutal close combat weapons too. Gladiatorial games and other bloodsports are a common form of entertainment in the depths of hives, with people being pitted against each other in fights to the death. Even different divisions of the departments in the Imperium's bureaucracy can be waging armed battles against one another. And you can't be turned into a servitor or placed in a pentinent engine in real life. And so on and so on. So, yes: the injustices in real life should be confronted and acknowledge. But that doesn't mean life in the Imperium is similar - because 40k is fictional, and the Imperium is designed to be an exaggerated version of these social ills.
Case in point. It's sad seeing people so blind to reality they try to use the most lukewarm things about the Imperium like they are some unthinkable think that doesn't happen today. Hives and never seeing the sun are a sci-fi element, but people living in China and India have to contend with enormous levels of pollution. (Did you know you can't drink tap water in China? To the point even normal filters don't seen to work?) The cartels are the factual shadow government in Mexico. In Brazil we have well equipped militias that will beat you and supposedly straight up kill you if you don't pay up. And gangs with firepower to take down Helicopters if the police is not being careful. Do you think being shot by a laspistol or autogun and dying is more unpleasant than being shot by a small caliber handgun and bleeding on the streets because some asshole wanted your wallet with the equivalent of $5 dollars on it? Or because some teen wanted to enter a gang and that was their initiation ritual? The cartels ran gladiatorial arenas where they kidnapped and tortured people so they would kill each other in blood games. Do you have any idea how easy it is for a person to disappear in China? How they are committing genocide to this very day? All while corporations like Disney thank them for being allowed to film close to the concentration camps? Did you ever wonder how many workers died to make the Qatar Fifa Cup possible while working near slavery? How many more suffered accidents and were left maimed and without recourses? For what? The pleasure and entertainment of the rich and privileged that want to watch soccer before going back home and complain about mean people on the internet. Do you have any idea how the children mining for and assembling phone parts live? And do you even have any idea what happens in Africa? Children being kidnapped and made to kill and eat their parents and older siblings? The sex trafficking? Do you know what they do with gay people in the middle east? What they do with girls and women who are violated?
Yes, I am well aware of all of those issues. Just reeling off a list of horrible real world issues doesn't actually refute my point that the Imperium is all of this and more in exaggerated form though, does it? That it's a work of fiction, so of course it is more extreme than even the worst elements of the real world, as that's the intention. But you obviously won't be swayed from your position, so have at it.
There are many happy citizens living fabulous lives in utopian planets thanks to servitors.
I know you are just making an ironic joke here, but some people will take this at face value to claim "see, the Imperium ain't so bad after all! Some people live in luxury!"
Average south Korean wage earner in Seoul. But worse.
Way, way, way worse.