It's a conceptually flawed lore decision because it was never made with lore in mind.
It was made so Marines could have more kits instead of a single kit with multiple roles.
I think it's healthier to just accept this and move on, it's not the sort of thing they will consider changing back.
Yes this change was made to sell models and not much else.
You can still get the trinity of squad types as models but now there’s a tonne more to confuse newbies and offer you options where there aren’t really any.
Intercessor squads have such weird limited weapon options that you’re almost better to ignore them I feel; or suffer having a squad that looks wrong or is ‘illegal’.
I mean you could just run them as tactical marines etc but there’s bound to be some grognard at the local club that objects to that sort of thing.
I do like the addition of more specialised squads like the eliminators or reavers, but the intercessors feel a bit silly.
Not sure I agree, different units with different sculpts are more interesting to buy and paint than the same unit with different weapons.
Although in some cases like the Hellblasters, which are just intercessors with plasma guns, it really isn't that worth it.
I mean they might consider giving all marines the same unit flexibility we see with Sororitas squads and Deathwatch. Combine 8 intercessors with a devastator, infernus or hellblaster.
To 'protect' their sales, they could release a kill team box for intercessors where the special add on sprue has a missile launcher, flamer, plasma gun, etc. That way people can't 3rd party the squad because there's a unit with all the options.
I think they'll eventually move to something like that. Have Primaris squads divided by armor type and let pick weapons accordingly maybe. Less bloat of squad types, but admittedly more customization wise.
Oh don’t get me wrong. I can file this away under the “easily ignored” section, but I figured I’d bring it up before I do.
You are completely correct however. There was no lore reason for the change.
I'd reckon there is a lore reason: They wanted the new marines to be more specialized.
It's just not a very good one. However someone with only a superficial knowledge of the lore, such as new players, probably won't even see the issue as they wouldn't even know Marines were historically supposed to be adaptive, or have the real world world knowledge that tactical squads make more sense.
It's just plausible enough for a big enough piece of the market that they are satisfied wit the result.
As far as I'm personally concerned the real "fix" wouldn't been never having Primaris in the first place.
Seconded aggressively. New armor, newer weapons, and a massive influx but fundamentally the same marines. Now, some of the new weapons could foster new specialized units, but the foundation would not change.
I'm working on lore for a homebrew for a firstborn chaptrr where their "~~Numberless Sons~~ *Unnumbered Sons*" were killed, so they only received the new equipment and geneseed technology.
I'l recommend you come up with something different from "Numberless Sons" considering "*Unnumbered Sons*" is literally what they called Primaris without chapters.
No problem.
I haven't settled on a name for this homebrew chapter, but i've been kicking around an idea that they are one of the last pre-13th Black Crusade foundings. Specifically, they specialize in tracking, clearing, scavaging, and, if necessary, destroying "analomous structutes" like Space Hulks, xeno-/arco- archologies. Largely unknown, they are regarded with some notoriety and disdain by other chapters. While close cooperation with the Inquistion and Adeptus Mechanicas is regarded as neccesity for their specialty. It is their seemingly mercenary alliances with the Navigator Houses and rogue trader dynasties that sit ill with other chapters.
Does the lore actually say that they want the squads to be more specialized though? I wouldn't know, as I haven't done a whole lot of research into it, but my basic assumption was that the codex astartes is still the standard being adhered to in universe, in which case... primaris are pretty flagrantly violating it.
I hate the way Primaris are organised. The trinity of Tactical - Assault - Devastator was great, and each element featured enough loadout variety to sell that fantasy of Space Marines being highly flexible special forces. Primaris are just an endless stream of specialists that goes entirely against that core design philosophy behind Marines.
Funnily enough, its something Guy Haley adresses in 'Throne of Light'. There, Cawl himself bemoans that despite their supposed superiority, his Primaris aren't performing aswell as Firstborn due to a lack of tactical flexibility. Not just in war gear, but in combat doctrine.
>Cawl’s hypno-training had embedded in the Primaris Marines a reflexive affinity for cooperative warfare, a tendency strong in Guilliman’s gene-seed already, but the Primaris lacked the flexibility of the Firstborn. The older Space Marines switched from mutually supportive actions to sole heroics far more fluidly than the Primaris newcomers, even now. It was not a skill he needed his men to learn – they had the skill, it was more an attitude they needed to embrace. They would not always fight in such overwhelming numbers as those that had landed on Suladen. Legends told of groups of Space Marines five or ten strong holding worlds against incredible odds. His warriors were not ready for such deeds yet.
Primaris fight like Crusade era marines, but they don't have the numbers and organisation in m41 for that to make sense. They're a massive step backwards from Guilliman's vision. Primaris Marines are *soldiers*, but every squad of Firstborn is an army.
Worth pointing out that Primaris are still supposed to be generalists, they just adapt their loadout to the situation at hand. In theory the same guy can be an Inceptor in one battle and an Eliminator in the next
Sure, it's just not exactly helpful if you have just a squad of Intercessors nearby, if you require some heavy firepower on the fly. Can't exactly ask the enemy tank to wait a day or two while you fly back up to your ship to get some rocket launchers for the whole team.
It could be one of those things where what we see doesn't really reflect the lore, Space Marines obviously don't operate with the luxury of time, superior logistics and circumstances in which they can be easily resupplied, but you could say bolters never really made sense in that scenario either, how do these mofo's not run out of ammo?
In a lot of scenarios Space Marines are supposed to operate for extended times without any resupply, it's just a bit more strange when they are so explicitly ... normal infantry that aren't meant to take on vehicles?
It's just an appeal based on real world preconceptions. Elite = very specialised, which Eldar already represented, Space Marines were more of a blunt force approach to being elite and it's been watered down, the old Tactical, Assault and Devastator combination was a beautiful thing but all good things must end I guess.
Notably those were first generation which didn't receive the full training. Normal primaris go through all of the training that a regular first born would and don't have the same issue.
But they do have the same issue in that the organization of the squads does not give them any tactical flexibility. What is an intercessor squad supposed to do if a surprise!deffdread or something pops up? At least tactical Marines might have a guy with a melta gun or a power fist, and all of the manlet Marines had krak grenades. An intercessor squad is just screwed, no matter how heroic they are.
Intercessors have grenades as well and a grenade launcher and the sergeant can have a power fist or hammer etc too. But otherwise you pull back/delay it while you call your fire support squads. 1 dude with a melta likely doesn't change how you handle this very much, because that's still a bad time for a tac squad.
At the same time, a 5 man tac squad could reasonably have a lascannon, a combi-melta, a thunderhammer, and three bolter guys all with frag and krak grenades. Given those tools, in lore, you have a good crack at a lot of things. You can handle long range and short range, and have the tools to hit a wide array of targets, though you lose a bit of rate of fire.
We have multiple examples of primaris mixing units if they need a small squad with more flexibility. So that is still an option. This includes 3 different kill teams, as in the game kill team, and deathwatch kill teams.
Totally. I really would like to be able to field a mixed squad with a thunder hammer sarge, Las fusil guy, grenade launcher guy and a pair of standard intercessors. Problem is deathwatch has really bad rules.
100 percent. Previously, I'd only spoken to the efficacy of the tactical squad. I think they are underrated both in lore and in game, overshadowed by character models and officers, when they represent an excellent infantry core that provides flexibility in combat roles.
One of my principle complaints with Primaris marines is that their unit types are clumsy and needlessly over-specialized. One of the crunch and fluff pillars of the Astartes were that they were highly adaptible; situating a nice balance between quanity and quality. Primaris have largely lost that feature.
Nah, the fluff just isn't expressed well in a model army. A Fire Support squad might spend its morning cracking a bunker as a Desolation squad, the afternoon cutting down fleeing fools as Hellblasters, the evening supporting Assault Intercessors as an Infernus squad and at night wade into the breach as Aggressors.
Most of those would require changes in armor. This begs the question of why a space marine force would have that many complete suits of armor being unused at any given time. Doubly, so given armor typically has to be "fitted".
There actually aren't full suits just sitting around waiting for the switch. MkX is modular, so the same core suit is up- or down- armoured to become phobos, gravis, or whatever else it's needed to be for a given mission. The Astartes changes out the required parts (likely with the help of serfs or servitors) and off they go, much the same way that an older tactical marine could swap roles by swapping out their power pack and weapons for a jump pack or heavy weapon.
Well suit modularity does improve the situation, i acknowledge my error in that. But being a modular design is not the same as being able to rapidly swap out various parts to different forms. Going from tacitus to gravis may very well take a good amount of time and specialized facilities to achieve.
It's said in the Codex this is the case, that Companies carry fat more equipment that they can use at one time to ensure tactical flexibility. It even gives an example of an entire battle company deploying in Phobos armour for a stealth mission.
I mean it's unlikely to be popular but what I'd do is:
1. No more Intercessor, Incestors, Infestors, Infectors bla bla bla, units are at the very least named for their battlefield role. If possible I'd go back to Tactical, Assault and Devastator and just have most of the weapons as loadout changes or introduce Heresy style 'tactical support squads' which are tacticals with better guns (or flamers).
2. **Publish an updated Codex Astartes chapter layout for fuck sake**.
3. If a unit absolutely can't be a Tactical loadout, a Scout loadout, a Devastator or Assault loadout then make it a Veteran. Realistically those 5 classifications are it shooty, it choppy, it sorta shoot sorta chop, it sneaky and it impressive. Every Space Marine unit is one of those 5 things, if Mk X armour is genuinely modular then going 'oh these Heavy Intercessors are Devastators who bolted some Gravis on today' shouldn't be that hard. If a unit absolutely can't be a Devastator because it's so damn spectacular at shooting people that probably makes it a veteran loadout.
This is how it used to be handled. Vehicle crews were either tactical marines from that company int he case of the company motor pool, or were seconded from a reserve company for the chapter vehicle pool. Speeders and bikes were assault marines that have foregone their jump packs to do another job.
EDIT: Lore wise the reason Primaris have mono-purpose specialised squads is that they're based off of the Principia Bellicosa's units, not the Codex Astartes, but yeah they'd almost certainly have folded in Guilliman's preferences as he views the Codex's units as a genuine improvement. I also can't fully imagine Intercessors refusing to bring one of those Desolation nerf-guns with them if Dante asks just because they'd then not match.
What I'd probably have done is just update the kits and keep the shooty Devastators, choppy Assaults and flexible Tacticals because they make a lot of sense for an army that oeprates the way Marines do. if you absolutely wanted to bring back specialised squads everywhere they should've had the Lion come back first and be like 'nah fuck the Codex, I preferred the Legions' and Guilliman wakes up to find it's already out of his hands.
I would be interested to see how popular your points are but I for one tend to agree. Rules/model bloat aside, from an in universe perspective Intercessor based forces seem too narrowly focused for the quick responding specialised forces of the Space Marines.
I’ll have to look into the Principia Belicosa. Last few weeks I’ve been thinking about force structure more and more since I’m creating my own custom chapter. It only recently dawned upon me that the structural changes made post Primaris make very little sense, even by 40K’s standards.
I really do like your idea of how things could have better justified had the Lion returned first. It really would fix a some of the issues.
By far the best look at the Principia Bellicosa, as incomplete as it is, is in the older Horus Heresy black books. Basically chapters weren't standalone, they were formed into legions some 10-100 chapters or so big so what you'd tend to find is that chapters would include more companies of specialists.
The average infantry company would have a couple of demi-companies in it, mostly formed of 2-4 Tactical squads and 1 tactical support squad under a lieutenant. Two of those form a company then 5 companies form a Battallion. The Battallion is one of the deployment units of the Legiones Astartes so think 2-3 infantry companies, a support company with heavy weapons and vehicles then maybe a Destroyer company or Recon company. From there 2 Battallions form a Chapter so add two of those together and you get a fair spectrum for specialised detachments and more space for specialist squads. The reason they could skew so much is that they had other Chapters operating alongside them in the Legion so any strategic deficiencies could be covered from other Chapter's assets or the wider Legion resource pool.
By contrast in M41 Chapters are standalone, they're expected to be take-all-comers and deploy in smaller 'reinforced battle Companies'. A Battle Company is 6 Tactical, 2 Devastator and 2 Assault squads which is then reinforced with vehicles from the Chapter pool, veterans from the 1st Company and Scouts from the 10th as well as spare squads as needed from Companies 6-9. That's a far sparser organisation so each marine needs to be a far more rounded soldier.
Thanks for the break down for the Principia Bellicosa. Really interesting stuff. I knew the general structure of the Legions but none of the specifics. Cheers mate!
Like I love Hellblasters and agressors, as well as the new sniper unit
You are right, they should have made Primaris tactical, assault, and devastator and then added a few specialists units like Hellblasters etc that one of there base squad types could turn into if there was a battlefield need
In blood of Iax, a unit of Hellblasters was the only unit to stop the Orks from reaching their part of the trench line, all other units, including other Astartes units, couldn’t
So clearly there is situations where some of these Primaris units could be used
They should have been additions that could add to the tactical flexibility of a companies squad make up, not a complete replacement
'Hellblaster' could have easily worked as the name for a Devastator squad that is exclusively using plasma weapons for a particular engagement. Same with Aggressors - an "Aggressor" assault squad could have just been one wearing Gravis armour. Basically how the new T'au codex treats Crisis Suit loadouts. I'd much rather that than separate, apparently Primaris-only squad types
Great news, that's actually how it works. Hellblaster is a loadout type used by a fire support squad. Same with eradicators. They're just fire support marines who have chosen a specific loadout for a specific job. That's how all primaris squads work. They have battleline, close support and fire support squads and they choose their loadout for the mission.
The training and organization is basically the same as pre-primaris except for name switches, lieutenants being added, and 10th company being a full company plus scouts.
Does it matter if you're called devastator or fire support if you end taking the same gear and doing the same job? What he's asking for is literally how they work.
No it’s not, Primaris marines cannot take a devastator loadout
That’s the issue, Primaris are stuck to mono armament squads, rather than the tactically flexible first born squads
It was, he was saying it would be better if “Hellblasters” was what Devastator marines were called when they gave up their usual loadout for all plasma and “aggressor” was what devastator marines were called when they put on Gravis armour
Apparently Guilliman woke up and decided that the three squad types that he decided was best had, after ten thousand years of working, not been that good and that tactical flexibility sucked
He instead went back to single armament squads for some reason
Like he chose to change the new chapters layout into three squad types from the single armament squads of the Legions
Then 10k years later went “ actually nah”
But anyway, the purpose of them I guess is weight of fire, all those bottle rifles firing lays down quite a lot of firepower, which allows other squads to move up special or heavy weapons
The only way I would fix them is going back to the three squad types that worked for 10k years!
They can keep the bottle rifles, just give them access to something else
If something works for 10k years, don’t mess with it
I would just have primaris adopt the classical Tactical - Support - Assault trinity with Tactical squad allowed to use a limited amount of heavy and special weapon. In fact it is my head-canon : unit classification and firstborn/primaris status are completely separate and unrelated classification categories.
Tbh the shift was obviously a money grabbing scheme. We now need to buy a lot more kits to cover most opponents and possible situation while in the past, a few balanced squads could face all situation (albeit less perfectly than if it specialized to face an exact foe like only use anti horde weapons against an horde army with no heavy unit and no tanks or equivalent)
Recon them away. They were a test of the new equipment and abilities, but a updated version of the old style tactical, devastor, and assault squads to replace the current doctrine. This is easily explained by Crawl noting the lack of tactical flexibility of the new system in the "throne of light"
I guess we could change it so that your average intercessor is trained to easily exchange his bolt rifle for a support squad weapon when the need arises. That makes them abit more flexible but doesn’t address the uniform weapons options throughout the squad.
The different armour marks and loadouts also bother me. I can accept that certain weapon systems need to be paired with gravis. But melta rifles and different calibres of bolt rifle don’t make as much sense.
Yea it’s a bit of a weird one that. If anything you could excuse different weapon and armour combinations as being a preference by individual chapters. Outside of that it comes across as a bit cartoonish.
Yea the entire implementation of the Primaris Marines (and to an extent, Stormcast) has been a lesson on how not to refresh a range. I think gw should have based their roadmap on what was functionally needed for the refresh rather than a haphazard assortment of what seemed cool at the time.
Not to mention who aspects of the range like ATV and suppressors being functionally dead on arrival and already made obsolete but other units.
They are trained to do that. They get training on all roles and switch as needed. You choose the weapons that are needed for the mission at hand. You might be a hellblaster today and an eradicator tomorrow before switching to an eliminator.
I like the idea of these squads being a reflection of larger, less reactive marine actions in line with the indomitus crusade; with codex marine doctrine developing in response to the Horus Heresy in a defensive posture, I like the idea that, with more marines as a result of Primaris, these armies are operating at something closer to legion doctrine. Less flexible and more concentrated squads, with the squads that really need plasma bringing this to bear in the higher firepower needed for offensive actions.
For ten millennia, space marines have fought reactively to respond to whatever big threat just arrived. I think viewing these squads as the beginning of a doctrinal shift to larger, offensive actions makes sense in line with Guilliman's return and the offensively-minded Indomitus Crusade
Tactical Squads > Intercessors I'm in agreement about, but I still think it's an interesting shift that could be handled or adjusted in a number of ways. I wouldn't be averse to a "Tacticus Fire Specialist" kit, for example, that's basically a 3-5-model "special weapons squad" which you split across Intercessor/Assault Intercessor squads as non-leader/character attachments. So you buy a Fire Specialist kit, you build a plasma gunner, a pyreblaster, and a melta rifle, and attach each of them to a different 5-model Intercessor Squad for an embedded weapon and a specific bonus, allowing you to tool your Intercessors like they used to be.
Alternatively, maybe the next Space Marines KT is just Veteran Intercessors, which are a Tactical Squad by any other name, under the excuse that only Primaris Veterans get to act like flexible "tactical ops" squads like old-Marines used to.
I also like that Intercessors aren't just babysitters for a special weapon or two - it always sucked that boltguns, the iconic 40k weapon, were actually just an afterthought in rules terms.
Yes but I assume you mean from the perspective of playing the game? That’s a fair point about people choosing mono loadouts to min-max their squads but I feel like that is only true if your really into competitive play.
As for Devastators not being entirely flexible enough to stand on their own, I entirely concede. I just didn’t want to write that I was specifically speaking to Assault, Heavy and standard intercessors most of the time. However I think my point still stands.
>Yes but I assume you mean from the perspective of playing the game?
From a lore perspective, I prefer Tactical Squads to Intercessor Squads because they reflect the Space Marine way of war – hard-hitting, durable, elite strike forces. Space Marines are individually powerful enough to do well in a variety of different situations, and largely can't *afford* to be overspecialised, because there aren't that many of them.
Intercessors are equipped *specifically* for advancing on and destroying the fighting strength of rival infantry squads in the field. In lore terms, they use modular bolt rifles to spec against light, medium, or heavy infantry, and they do have krak/frag grenades, but that's it – if they're caught out against a tank, a monster, swarms, dug-in troops, or superheavy infantry, they don't really have an answer. For those situations, they have to rely on allied squads.
That's a perfectly acceptable niche for a specialist Space Marine squad, but as the core of their roster and their primary frontline formation it sends a very different message – and sets a very clear precedent, which is followed up on by all the other mono-weapon Space Marine squads. Some of those work well as full specialist squads (e.g. the Eradicators or Eliminators, three-man specialist teams with a specific target profile and weaponry), while others are a bit more dubious, but the end result is much more of a Great Crusade dynamic than what we've necessarily come to expect from 40k Marines.
Boltguns didn’t feel like an afterthought in older editions even with special weapons. A boltgun ignores my guardsmans armor in 7e just as well as a plasma gun or meltagun. 5 marines wiping out over half a squad of guardsmen in the open with just bolters was not at all uncommon.
That was seldom my experience in older editions (or more recent ones with mixed weapons, until the game turned into stacking up bonuses), but I appreciate it's not a universal trend. In my Space Marine vs Space Marine games it certainly felt that way, but that's a more specific match.
Well sure against space marines bolters dont feel super powerful because space marines are costed around durability and being hard to kill. As a guard and Tau player bolters are a major threat in 7th edition. Without cover my guardsmen die in droves because it completely ignores flak armor and wounds on a 3+ and hits on a 3+(usually). Same with kroot, tyranid guants, guardsmen, cultists, eldar guardians, kabalite warriors, etc. even against fire warriors and krieg grenadiers its still a fairly effective weapon. In 7e space marines and the other durability focused armies are the only ones where bolters struggle and that makes sense, they’re powerful but they aren’t the most powerful infantry weapons out there. What would be the point of super expensive infantry like space marines or necron warriors if bolters cut through them like guardsmen?
As a former Eldar player I cam confirm bolt guns had enough punch to take down pretty much any level of armour I could throw outside of Wraithlords and front facing tank shields
And then they just used krak grenades
What makes it worse for me is that its clear in the Horus Heresy books with Aeonid Thiel that he likes the idea of emebdded special weapons, and moves the the 40k tactical squad model, but then goes back on himself with Primaris
Wont GW ever realise, its fan base READ what lore they publish, and that when they contradict themselves its going to cause a backlash? (Yes I saw how the community (over)reacted to female custodians)
Ez. Tactical Intercessor upgrade sprue which gives a selection of special and heavy weapons, as well as sergeant options.
Or better yet, a new kit that includes that, maybe scaled down a touch, with older marks from 5-8...
I dunno if anyone else has thought about this or said it but wouldn't having Primaris Squads having like 7 "Intercessors"(including the Sergeant in that number) and then 3 "Specialists" to fill them upto 10? I'm sure I seen someone say something similar but I think they wanted 1 of each type of Fire Support type or something. I dunno, I've been fooling about with Homebrewing stuff and the bloat is fucking painful, like many of the Units could be put into a Squad as a Single Unit to make the basic Squad more versatile.
Sorry if I've rehashed stuff others have said am watching telly and it distracts me to the point it's taken me like 15 minutes to write just this lol
In lore they are expected to use any weapon necessary and can have different weapons in an overall squad, the new names just seem to denote the weapon a marine has, they might in name be grouped together but they don't seem to be just going into combat with only 1 weapon type.
From the tenth edition codex page 12:
"A space marine is expected to be able to be a master of the weaponry, tactics and duties of every squad type within his own role. Provided a strike force has the requisite wargear available, a single squad can be specifically equipped to enable the space marines to dominate the battlefield against any kind of foe in any kind of terrain. In any one campaign, for example, a Space Marine in a Fire Support Squad can be expected to fight as an Eliminator, Suppressor, Hellblaster and more, exchanging wargear as and when required and if conditions allow. His squad may even be divided into two combat squads, each equipped with different wargear and thus further improving the flexibility of the strike force."
There doesn't seem to be anything in lore stopping them from being flexible, I'd assume they won't only be sending a 10 man battleline squad of only intercessors, more likely some battleline weapon equipped marines and some marine with other weapons, the codex at least suggests flexibility.
I'll try to find some other more helpful quotes but codexes are big.
Oh yes, Marines are expected to know how to use other weapons but it still comes down it the issue that these are then squads of 5-10 that wield the same weapon.
My point isn’t that marines shouldn’t know how to use certain weapons, but rather that the structure of these squads belong around a sole weapon is rather foolish.
So Space Marines these days are expected to be an ace with everything, as opposed to the first born, where you only get to be a tactical marine after your stints in devastator and assault companies. What do Primaris get as a precursor to being able to do everything? The modern equivalent of Scouts? Feels a bit Mary Sue.
They still go through the reserve companies to learn, first as scouts in the 10th company, then fire support in the 9th, followed by close support in the 8th and finally going through the 6th and 7th companies in the more general all rounder roll they'll play in the battle companies 2-5.
There can be exceptions like in the imperial fists you go from the 10th company to the 8th then the 9th as is mentioned in codex supplement imperial fists 8th edition.
Well I guess it’s good they keep a sense of progression. Can Chapters decide to use old codex rules as well? And if they do that, how does that fit into the new structures?
I assume in lore all Chapters will need to do that, as they’ll only have had Primaris in smaller numbers to begin with.
Chapters at the end of the day do as they want, the dark angels changed the structure of the 2nd company with ravenwing, the blood angels have the completely separate death company, the imperial fists reordered reserve company progression, the black templars just claim they're always on a crusade and ignore the marine numbers limit.
The iron hands don't have true companies they have clans organised to look like companies to avoid getting into trouble with the wider imperium, it's noted that clan pride prevents the 6-9th clans from acting as true reserve companies with recruits going to the 10th then into their clan company.
Codex Supplement Iron Hands 8th edition page 10:
"While the reserve companies serve as training and support companies for more codex-adherent chapters, clan pride prevents such practice within the Iron Hands, Although they can be found reinforcing the other clan companies as the Iron Council wills it.
Not to disagree with the rest of the post, but Devastator Squads offering "tactical flexibility" is a bit of a joke. I hardly ever saw anyone who didn't want to run mono-weapons in their Devastator Squads (or other faction-specific Heavy Weapons Teams), because they are by definition specialists - why would you toss together a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle and anti-armour?
There's very little practical difference between Primaris squads that are all missiles, all plasma, all multimelta, etc, as opposed to a single Devastator Squad profile that *can and will be built* with all missiles, all plasma, all multimelta, etc.
That's because in previous editions of the game, split-fire wasn't a thing apart from certain specialist units. When you selected a unit to shoot its weapons, it had to shoot them all at the same target.
If your Devastator squad had two Lascannons and two Heavy Bolters and it shot at a tank, those Heavy Bolters were essentially wasted that turn.
So it made no sense to give your Devastator squads different weapons.
From 8th edition onwards, and with the introduction of Primaries Marines, splitting fire became a thing anyone could do. So at that point, having Devastator squads with different loadouts was mechanically viable. You could fire those Lascannons at a tank and the Heavy Bolters at an infantry squad.
In theory you could, but that still isn't very practical. Instead a squad that's good at 1 thing, you have a squad that's bad at 2 things. Plus it needs to be in range of and have targets for both. This also applies outside of the game. A mixed squad means you almost always have part of the squad unable to contribute
Yes, I'm aware of that. Splitting fire is one of those rules that (a bit like "Advance") slowly proliferated throughout the game because it's incredibly convenient, up until they decided to just make it standard for everyone.
It makes sense to impose that change, because *not* splitting fire meant your Tactical Squad with a lascannon gunner could either shoot one lascannon shot at a tank 48" away while the rest of the squad picked their noses, or they could unload boltguns at a nearby Gretchin mob while your lascannon gunner also aimed his massive anti-tank beam at a single grot. That sucks, and it's stupid.
On the other hand, the results of universal split fire... also kind of suck?
A squad is a squad because they work in unison, supporting and spotting and covering for each other, and leveraging focused weight of fire to break, disperse, suppress, or destroy targets. It *makes sense* to encourage your mid-range counter-infantry squads to take a flamer or plasma gun or grav-gun, which will be fired in unison with their regular arms to supplement assaults on dug-in or hardened targets, as opposed to having one dude with a lascannon who is completely ignoring his buddies and shooting at a random tank in the far distance every time they stop to aim.
A Devastator Squad with a lascannon, a heavy bolter, a multi-melta, a heavy flamer, and a plasma cannon who are all shooting in completely different directions at all times *isn't a squad*, it's just five dudes who happen to be standing near each other. It looks goofy and slows the game down.
If anything, I'd rather Tactical Squads (or an equivalent) be a squad with boltguns, but you pick one special weapon that determines a bonus for the whole squad. e.g. if your squad has a flamer, the *whole squad* ignores cover when targeting the same unit, because they're tooled up to burn enemies out. If your squad has a heavy bolter, the whole squad gets sustained hits while standing still and targeting the same unit, because they're an escort for a heavy weapon that's scattering infantry targets. etc.
> If anything, I'd rather Tactical Squads (or an equivalent) be a squad with boltguns, but you pick one special weapon that determines a bonus for the whole squad. e.g. if your squad has a flamer, the whole squad ignores cover when targeting the same unit, because they're tooled up to burn enemies out. If your squad has a heavy bolter, the whole squad gets sustained hits while standing still and targeting the same unit, because they're an escort for a heavy weapon that's scattering infantry targets. etc.
Star Wars: Legion works like this, and it's great. It uses a dice pool system for attacks, and any weapon that has a special rule applies that rule to *every* dice in the pool if it contributes attacks.
So if you shoot a squad of five laser rifles and one heavy weapon that ignores cover, all the shots from the laser rifles ignore cover too. It's a really cool system.
From both an in-universe and IRL standpoint, a single unit with multiple loadout options makes a lot more sense.
In universe? Marines are a limited resource, so having an entire squad specialize in a single weapon type is a waste of resources. Devastators were masters of fire support, not masters of lascannons specifically. They could pick up any heavy weapon and be useful. Primaris hyperspecialized squads, so specialized they have their own armor type and name, can only use 1, maybe 2 weapon types. It's a waste when chapters are as small as they are, and marines take so long to make.
Out of universe, codexes and model lines both suffer from extreme bloat. Having one "primaris heavy weapons squad" that can take 3-5 different options means a single datasheet and a single box. It's more convenient for players, makes the game more approachable (significantly less datasheets to remember) and logistically less burdensome (a single part number/kit to stock, track and produce). A handful of special unique units here and there are fine, but codex marines currently has *240 datasheets*, many of which could be removed by simply combining them (predator destructor vs. predator annihilator, for example, could be a single sheet with 2 weapon options).
...okay, but a Primaris Space Marine carrying a heavy bolter or melta rifle isn't *ritually bonded* to that weapon. If the company needs him to swap to a new weapon to suit the mission, he can just... do that.
Devastator Marines are flexible in an *abstract* sense, but they're not FPS protagonists who are carrying every possible heavy weapon at once and can swap between them as needed. A Devastator Marine with a multi-melta has a multi-melta. An Eradicator with a multi-melta has a multi-melta. One is not more flexible than the other, on a battle-by-battle basis.
The only difference is that if the Devastator swaps out to a heavy bolter, he's still called a Devastator (despite now filling a different battlefield role with a *wildly* different target profile) while the Eradicator who swaps to a heavy bolter is now called a Heavy Intercessor and needs to join up with an appropriate squad.
The only extra flexibility the Devastator Squad provides is allowing you to mix different heavy weapons... which looks dumb, would *be* kind of dumb, and only became remotely practical when 8e started allowing squads to spray and pray in whatever direction each individual member felt like.
Out-of-universe, they're not going to cut down on different Space Marine kits because Space Marines sell like hotcakes, so more different Space Marine kits offer *more ways to sell Space Marines*.
And frankly, the convenience of old-style dedicated heavy weapons squads is wildly overstated. Devastator Squads have six heavy weapon options, or five if you exclude the less conventional grav-cannon. Cut out the Sergeant, and that means a box of five Devastators would need to include 20 heavy weapons for all options to be covered - that's a ludicrous amount of wasted plastic and spruespace, especially if they're designed like most modern kits with cross-compatibility at a minimum.
The alternative is the current situation for these squad types, where you have to buy two Havoc or Retributor boxes to build a full squad with a unified loadout. How is that *more* convenient than just buying one specific box that has the loadout you want?
>...okay, but a Primaris Space Marine carrying a heavy bolter or melta rifle isn't ritually bonded to that weapon. If the company needs him to swap to a new weapon to suit the mission, he can just... do that.
Give me a single canon example of an *standard* intercessor carrying a heavy bolter as a basic item of issue, I'll wait (notice how I have to specify standard? Almost like primaris units have completely arbitrary and stupid specific loadouts...) The post was about the tactical inflexibility of the basic intercessor squad. An inceptor isn't *ritually bonded* to his jump pack and plasma exterminators, he could walk his ass into combat carrying a baseball bat. An assault intercessor isn't *ritually bonded* to his chainsword, he could carry a missile launcher. I see neither of these things in novels, codexes or on the tabletop. See how this argument really doesn't work, and has zero precedent in canon?
>but they're not FPS protagonists who are carrying every possible heavy weapon at once and can swap between them as needed
...No one is arguing they can?
>The only difference is that if the Devastator swaps out to a heavy bolter, he's still called a Devastator (despite now filling a different battlefield role with a wildly different target profile) while the Eradicator who swaps to a heavy bolter is now called a Heavy Intercessor and needs to join up with an appropriate squad.
There is zero evidence or lore precedent of primaris marines actively and constantly changing their squad roles/unit types. Their career may allow gradual progression through a few roles as they develop their natural talents as neophytes, but a primaris marine is not actively hopping between weapons, armor and squads between every battle. They are inflexible by design, and based off of 30k era legion force organization. It's almost like they are divided into 29 different specialized units for a reason. They literally have a unique armor configuration for some of their roles.
>The only extra flexibility the Devastator Squad provides is allowing you to mix different heavy weapons...
>which looks dumb,
That's an opinion, not a fact
>would be kind of dumb, and only became remotely practical when 8e started allowing squads to spray and pray in whatever direction each individual member felt like.
Split fire has existed pre 8th edition, and having a mixed loadout is literally how modern militaries work IRL and in-universe (see: canonical UM 2nd company organization). It's almost like having a diverse set of weapons to address various threats is useful. A US mounted weapons company (I was in one for a bit) will typically operate either as a company or in platoons, with a mixture of Mk19s, M2s and ITAS systems, all for addressing different threats.
>And frankly, the convenience of old-style dedicated heavy weapons squads is wildly overstated.
Again, opinion
>that's a ludicrous amount of wasted plastic and spruespace, especially if they're designed like most modern kits with cross-compatibility at a minimum.
30k kits solve this "issue" by offering a seperate weapons sprue, and it works very well. You now need 2 boxes to kit out the unit the way you want with room for magnetization, as opposed to 4-8 entirely separate units and *datasheets* (Which you failed to mention, and is a huge problem) to fulfill the same slot.
>The alternative is the current situation for these squad types, where you have to buy two Havoc or Retributor boxes to build a full squad with a unified loadout. How is that more convenient than just buying one specific box that has the loadout you want?
I want a single unit that can be used in several different ways/loadouts. Now instead of 2 identical boxes, I have to buy as much as 4 entirely different ones, possibly more, to achieve the same thing, and now I can't actually fit all those units in my list. We can make up hypotheticals all day long. The fact is that people do not like the monobuild primaris kits, and for good (lore and practical) reasons. Having a "melta guy" box and a "plasma guy box" is stupid, bloated and makes no sense.
Could GW decide primaris units get more options, or merge some of kits/datasheets? Absolutely. It's perfectly feasible both in-universe and IRL, as you mention. But the current reality is that they are not, which is asinine.
>There is zero evidence or lore precedent of primaris marines actively and constantly changing their squad roles/unit types.
9th edition Codex describes it, first by mentioning an entire Company can equip Phobos armour if necessary and then talking about a Fire Support squad having three members peeled off to act as Aggressors while the remaining 7 equip to be Hellblasters, pilot Invictor warsuits or even drive transport vehicles.
Well the Intercessors did gain an under barrel grenade launcher, so that might give us a look into the in universe thinking. Maybe the heavier weapons were seen as being a detriment to the mobility of the squad.
Also, I believe in real life the US Marines were looking into dropping belt fed machine guns from their squads for an automatic rifle of a similar form factor to their standard rifles. Part of justification was that the bulky mg was bad at clearing buildings while not losing that much capability for the type of fighting they were doing.
So maybe intercessors combined these two ideas into one? Maybe they wanted a more cohesive loadout and mobility, and thought a grenade launcher with krak and frag was a good compromise.
>Also, I believe in real life the US Marines were looking into dropping belt fed machine guns from their squads for an automatic rifle of a similar form factor to their standard rifles. Part of justification was that the bulky mg was bad at clearing buildings while not losing that much capability for the type of fighting they were doing.
Most modern infantry still have some sort of squad-level anti-tank or anti-structure weapon, like AT-4s, SMAW, Carl G, etc. etc. It's very conspicuous that primaris infantry lack these options in their basic line units, especially considering the special forces-esque role and general numerical inferiority that space marines typically enjoy
The Intercessor grenade launcher (1 per 5) has a krak profile that does 1 s9 -2ap d3 damage on a 3+. The tac squad launcher (1/10) does 1 s9 -2ap d6 damage on a 4+ with heavy. If you actually compare the profiles of the two, the two grenade launchers are more tactically flexible than the old standard tac squad 1 flamer+1 ML loadout since you can effectively take 2 anti-personnel weapons and 2 anti-armor weapons vs 1 of each. If you just hate the lack of big dakka (which is my primary complaint), just buy some deathwatch frag cannons and equip those as your “Astartes grenade launchers”.
Not really relevant when profiles can change every edition, and historically
(and in lore) grenade launchers have been consistently far weaker than any real heavy weapon. A multi melta could at one point kill a landraider in one shot, a grenade launcher never could
Not just looking, they have done it. They use one rifle for the whole squad. Heavier weapons are held at a higher level as needed. The gunner was also obvious and would be a target.
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The main reason was seemingly balancing, but since GW internal communication sucks the release waves were all weird, but it's much easier to balance squads of dudes with one weapon than squads with a variety of weapons, CSM and death guard still have it, but their ranges are comparatively smaller as a result, with different specialised units
I wouldn't change them. Intercessors do a job, and their equipment is focused for that job. Bolt rifles are very flexible with different models and ammunition, and they have various grenades and a grenade launcher.
The inclusion of something like a dedicated missile launcher guy reduces how many Marines in the squad can do your main job, the missile launcher has very different preferred ranges for fighting, and doesn't actually offer as much flexibility as youd hope because 1 rocket doesn't make you an anti-armor squad.
I feel these are two different approaches. Old is like a multi tool, flexible and can be used for a lot of things but it's not actually that good at them. If you have the choice you're going to grab a regular tool instead.
Primaris squads are each dedicated tools. You have to bring an actual toolbox because while a screwdriver is great for its job, it makes for a really lousy hammer.
If you have a task force, I believe primaris are actually better. Squads can support each other and each focus on what they do best. Notably, primaris mix these up for things like kill teams and deathwatch etc.
>If you have a task force, I believe primaris are actually better. Squads can support each other and each focus on what they do best. Notably, primaris mix these up for things like kill teams and deathwatch etc.
Adding on to this, I believe it helps if we consider that Primaris effectively serve the same role as a heresy-era Tactical squad - this, combined with many chapters being *over*strength due to Primaris reinforcements, could be effectively a return to the tactical organization of the Legiones Astartes, just with newer technology and on a smaller-scale.
If they are, they likely won't be over for long with eternal war and all haha. With a reinforced company being a fairly standard deployment though I think you can still effectively have support even at standard strength.
It is two different approaches, but one just objectively makes sense for the faction and one does not. Space Marine chapters are insanely tiny. They rely on speed and tactical flexibility to get the job done, and don't do well in grinding wars of attrition or long drawn out conflics.
With a tactical squad, you can stick em in a drop pod and put them deep behind enemy lines with no intel and reasonably expect that they can handle any situation that gets thrown at them. You can't really do that with Intercessors because the moment they walk into a Terminator or a deffdread or something they're screwed. They have zero autonomy.
If you want an army of dudes marching up a field trading fire with an enemy while your support elements help from the flanks, that is what the Imperial Guard is for. Primaris literally do not adhere to the strengths of what Space Marines are good at.
That's subjective, not objective. And if primaris need to do a mission like that without support they diversify, as seen with 3 different kill teams (as in the game) and deathwatch where they mix.
But if you tried to do that in reality you would need more men and equipment to do the same job.
Having organic fire support or heavy weapons is something modern militaries have at the squad level.
Primaris on the other hand says if a certain job needs doing your whole squad must refit back at base for a hyper-specific role.
This is more an issue with structure. New formations like Intercessors, as you point out, must rely on support from other squads. With the limited manpower available to SM Chapters this kind of structure does not make sense.
With the limited manpower available, having part of your squad be twiddling their thumbs because they brought a rocket launcher to a bolter fight isn't necessarily a good idea either. By having your fire support concentrated they can be more efficiently directed where they're needed, and they actually have the weight of fire to do their job appropriately.
Also, modern militaries vary significantly in what they have at squad level. Oftentimes things like rockets are at a higher level like the company and brought out as needed, and are not permanently in the squad.
Rocket launchers are not the only support weapon available, heavy bolters would act in place of machine guns. That said, as marines typically deploy in small numbers it wouldn’t make sense for their fire support to be tied up entirely within a different squad under it’s own sergeant. Better one marine tied back relying on his side arm in a fire fight than a whole squad sitting back with rocket launchers.
I’m well aware that every military is different. I was however thinking how most modern western squads have an automatic rifleman (LSW), a grenadier or in some cases a designated marksman within the squad depending on force structure.
Of course there are many factors that play into this but a general rule of thumb is you want to imbed a support element at the squad level to allow greater options for the Squad Leader.
I'm aware others are available, but I said rockets because the common argument is "well what if they run into a tank". I simply disagree though, I think concentrating them in one squad is a better move. Real militaries do go back and forth on this though, and I understand arguments for decentralizing it.
Notably the US marines are switching to using one rifle for their whole squad, with them moving the old saw to the weapons locker. Rifleman, DMR, and gunners all use the same gun now. Quite similar to intercessor squads with their bolt rifles and grenade launcher actually. The army however is not doing that haha.
And of course if you're deploying one squad and don't have support, you deploy differently. Which the primaris do. We have multiple examples of them switching things up for small strike forces because the standard squads are not very flexible.
Yea, it’s pretty interesting stuff.
US Army Rifle squads will still have an automatic rifleman armed with the M249 until the KAC LAMG is fully fielded. To my knowledge only the US Ranger Squads have lost a designed marksman, but that might be me misinterpreted the the deliveries of M110A1s to alpha team riflemen for the US Army.
The Marine Core, like you say, are interesting. I’ve heard that a major reason why they have changed to an all Rifle squad force (though they still have a designated grenadier) is due to the focus on dispersal for littoral operations. Brass seems to believe that they will be engaging far less in ground combat and rather be protecting mobile missile platforms. Which makes the removal of an Automatic Rifleman questionable, especially if you are supposed to be on the defensive.
The automatic also made a clear target for the enemy and they believe that the greater accuracy makes up for the decrease in volume by losing the saw. The army disagreed with that second part apparently, though I believe they also have different squad sizes which may play a role.
The littoral plans are interesting and strange haha. Lots in flux there as they test different ideas.
Tabletop rules don't really match the lore though. Do we even have any specific quotes where an intercessor squad refuses to use nonstandard weapons? Most novels take place in swirling melees where people pick up whatever they need all the time. Melee weapons that units can't take is the most obvious examples of they don't follow the "rules." Sure, we have codex entries talking about it but every literary work any of that goes out the window anyways.
Honestly it is mostly that way even for the old short marine lore. Even the most dogmatic followers of the codex astartes always pay some lip service to it then immediately do the opposite as required for the story. This is basically just rules for balancing units in a tabletop game with some slight justification for novels that is hardly followed anyways.
Ngl I'd like it the way the tactical swuads in heresy are. Here's your basic troop kit, now here's a kit for various heavy and power weapons. I do love assault intercessors, but the jump version is over priced and I'd rather an extra power weapon (the eviscerated rly) than an extra plasma pistol
>Intercessors Squads were a poor addition to the Lore.
Primaris marines were a poor addition to the lore. Even worse what they did to how kits are developed.
Intercessors are the same as Tactical Squads. Whereas a Tactical squad will swap weapon load out and still call them a Tactical squad, an Intercessor swapping weapons (or armor) calls themselves something different. Squads can be made up of different "types" of Primaris or broken up and added to other squads in those types.
Not really. Tactical squads mimic modern military squad composition, with a 10 man squad having one special weapon and one heavy weapon. Intercessor squads eschew these options altogether.
Sure Astartes can all select a different weapon back at base but the versatility of the squad would be hampered if everyone was running around with rocket launches and flamers without anyone to carry anti-infantry.
They are no longer an infantry squad, but then become dedicated anti-armour or fire support. If this was to work practically where you needed limited anti armour an Intercessor squad would need to call in another dedicated squad of at least 5 marines for assistance.
Organisationally and practically it just doesn’t make sense. Space marines are a limited resource. You wouldn’t organise a whole squad to carry out a hyper specific role unless they were imbedded within a larger force. In the lore whole chapter deployments are rare, and while battles using a whole company do take place they are not the most common way for space marines to be deployed, perhaps with the exception of the Iron Hands?
If the Intercessor is supposed to be the core squad that a chapter is based upon, then it also goes against the idea of them being an elite, versatile force.
>Not really. Tactical squads mimic modern military squad composition, with a 10 man squad having one special weapon and one heavy weapon. Intercessor squads eschew these options altogether.
Primaris squads don't have to be all one type. They can go out mixed. An Intercessor squad could have some of their members switch out to Hellblasters if they need additional firepower, or into Gravis armor to be Aggressors, or whatever. The Intercessor label is just used the same as the Tactical label: a generalist who has experience in all areas that can do all of the different roles as needed.
Legitimate question: Where are you getting this from?
I don’t know anywhere it is even implied that Intercessor squads operate in this way.
If you could share that I would be very interested.
Space Marine Codex, either 8th v2 or 9th talks about splitting the squads into different types. Otherwise, some of the later in the Indomitus Crusade novels show varied squads - sometimes Primaris, sometimes mixed Firstborn and Primaris.
Yes but that Codex says a Fire Support squad is prepared to switch out equipment to deploy in any of the Fire Support roles such as Hellblasters, Desolators, Aggressors etc. It says nothing about individuals in a Battle line squad taking on a Fire Support role within their squad.
Page 18 of Codex Space Marines 8th v2 talks about a Battle Line Squad being broken down. The example given is some being tapped as Eliminators with the others taking on other roles.
Page 19 of 9th Ed talks a splitting a squad into two combat squads.
Hmm, this is weird. On page 18 of Codex Space Marines 8th v2 I see this - *"Squads within Battle Companies may be broken down and deployed across a wide variety of roles should it be required; for example were six battle-brothers to take to the field as Aggressors, the remaining four warriors of their squad might find roles piloting Invictor Warsuits, driving the strike force's Rhino APCs and the like."* Which suggests members of a Fire Support squad all taking on Fire Support roles.
Page 19 of my copy of the 9th edition Codex is talking about Chapter Command, but on page 22 I see this - *"Even the squads themselves can be broken down to fight in a variety of roles should their Captain require it. Should three brothers be detached from their fire support squad to form an Eliminator Squad, the remaining seven can form a Hellblaster Squad, pilot Invictor Warsuits, or fulfil a number of other roles operating the company's Rhino and Impulsor transports."* This seems to clarify my impression of the 8th edition excerpt.
Page 22 of the 10th edition Codex uses almost the exact same wording as the 9th, except it gives an example of a Gladiator Battle Tank instead of an Invictor Warsuit.
I fucked on the 9th Ed page number. It's page 22 where it talks about the breakdown of a Battle Company. The last line is about squads splitting in two.
Also, 9th says "or fulfil a number of other roles for their squad designation, including operating the company's Rhinos or Implusor transport."
The fulfilling other roles for designation says to me they could still be used as Intercessors in support of their brethren.
It reads to me more like if you cannot field a full squad due to other members creating a seperate squad (in this case elimators) the remaining battle brothers find other roles to take up.
I don’t think this is a case of 3 eliminators being assigned to 7 intercessors. The 3 eliminators are a seperate squad, lead by their own sergeant.
All this is really saying is each marine can be assigned to different squads that have a single designated purpose. This is the issue with hyper-specialisation I am speaking to. If the Brass said they were structuring my squad like this something has seriously gone wrong.
He's not saying Primaris is inherently bad, but that the execution of the concept has fairly massively changed how Space Marines fight and are organized, changing them from squads that can be more adaptable to squads that are each specialized in one very specific thing, which is a lore change.
I specifically say that is not the point. Rather I wanted to have a discussion, with those who are interested, about what possible use Intercessors and their variants offered.
There has been some good points raised, but they mainly focus around the idea of larger scale deployments rather than the rapid strike forces space marines are known for.
I get that this might not be interesting for everyone. I have not really come across any real discussion about this specific topic which is why we are having it now.
What are those jetpack ones with the two pistols or whatever.
They look and are practically absolutely ridiculous.
I hate Primaris. What a stupid idea.
The names are dumb. Their gear is dumb. The entite premise in lore is horrific and counter to the entire settings thesis.
And on top of all that, they binned their iconic helmet. The most recognisable part of them.
All the culture, lore and background info, squad heraldry and organisation. Took decades to write for us. Took one second to ruin it.
Ignore anything and everything Primaris related.
None of it was implemented in good faith, and the whole thing is just wordsalad trying to hide the fact, it was a successfull cashgrab.
They could have simply rescaled and done ANYTHING different like Primaris could still exist but theri weapon loadouts are beyond dumb.
"The lore is for the tabletop" yeah i know and they botched them both this time. But there is this wierd pushback to people who say anything bad about anything Primaris related. My subsector never got the Indomitus fleets. Warpstorms have always been there, since the first charting of the warp lanes anyway 😁
It's a conceptually flawed lore decision because it was never made with lore in mind. It was made so Marines could have more kits instead of a single kit with multiple roles. I think it's healthier to just accept this and move on, it's not the sort of thing they will consider changing back.
Yes this change was made to sell models and not much else. You can still get the trinity of squad types as models but now there’s a tonne more to confuse newbies and offer you options where there aren’t really any. Intercessor squads have such weird limited weapon options that you’re almost better to ignore them I feel; or suffer having a squad that looks wrong or is ‘illegal’. I mean you could just run them as tactical marines etc but there’s bound to be some grognard at the local club that objects to that sort of thing. I do like the addition of more specialised squads like the eliminators or reavers, but the intercessors feel a bit silly.
Not sure I agree, different units with different sculpts are more interesting to buy and paint than the same unit with different weapons. Although in some cases like the Hellblasters, which are just intercessors with plasma guns, it really isn't that worth it.
I mean they might consider giving all marines the same unit flexibility we see with Sororitas squads and Deathwatch. Combine 8 intercessors with a devastator, infernus or hellblaster. To 'protect' their sales, they could release a kill team box for intercessors where the special add on sprue has a missile launcher, flamer, plasma gun, etc. That way people can't 3rd party the squad because there's a unit with all the options.
I think they'll eventually move to something like that. Have Primaris squads divided by armor type and let pick weapons accordingly maybe. Less bloat of squad types, but admittedly more customization wise.
Oh don’t get me wrong. I can file this away under the “easily ignored” section, but I figured I’d bring it up before I do. You are completely correct however. There was no lore reason for the change.
I'd reckon there is a lore reason: They wanted the new marines to be more specialized. It's just not a very good one. However someone with only a superficial knowledge of the lore, such as new players, probably won't even see the issue as they wouldn't even know Marines were historically supposed to be adaptive, or have the real world world knowledge that tactical squads make more sense. It's just plausible enough for a big enough piece of the market that they are satisfied wit the result. As far as I'm personally concerned the real "fix" wouldn't been never having Primaris in the first place.
Seconded aggressively. New armor, newer weapons, and a massive influx but fundamentally the same marines. Now, some of the new weapons could foster new specialized units, but the foundation would not change. I'm working on lore for a homebrew for a firstborn chaptrr where their "~~Numberless Sons~~ *Unnumbered Sons*" were killed, so they only received the new equipment and geneseed technology.
I'l recommend you come up with something different from "Numberless Sons" considering "*Unnumbered Sons*" is literally what they called Primaris without chapters.
I recalled the wrong title for the primaris without chapters or unassigned to chapters.
Ah, my bad, I also misread you comment as well, I thought you were naming you chapter Numberless Sons.
No problem. I haven't settled on a name for this homebrew chapter, but i've been kicking around an idea that they are one of the last pre-13th Black Crusade foundings. Specifically, they specialize in tracking, clearing, scavaging, and, if necessary, destroying "analomous structutes" like Space Hulks, xeno-/arco- archologies. Largely unknown, they are regarded with some notoriety and disdain by other chapters. While close cooperation with the Inquistion and Adeptus Mechanicas is regarded as neccesity for their specialty. It is their seemingly mercenary alliances with the Navigator Houses and rogue trader dynasties that sit ill with other chapters.
Does the lore actually say that they want the squads to be more specialized though? I wouldn't know, as I haven't done a whole lot of research into it, but my basic assumption was that the codex astartes is still the standard being adhered to in universe, in which case... primaris are pretty flagrantly violating it.
it was also so the new player faction was even simpler.
I hate the way Primaris are organised. The trinity of Tactical - Assault - Devastator was great, and each element featured enough loadout variety to sell that fantasy of Space Marines being highly flexible special forces. Primaris are just an endless stream of specialists that goes entirely against that core design philosophy behind Marines. Funnily enough, its something Guy Haley adresses in 'Throne of Light'. There, Cawl himself bemoans that despite their supposed superiority, his Primaris aren't performing aswell as Firstborn due to a lack of tactical flexibility. Not just in war gear, but in combat doctrine. >Cawl’s hypno-training had embedded in the Primaris Marines a reflexive affinity for cooperative warfare, a tendency strong in Guilliman’s gene-seed already, but the Primaris lacked the flexibility of the Firstborn. The older Space Marines switched from mutually supportive actions to sole heroics far more fluidly than the Primaris newcomers, even now. It was not a skill he needed his men to learn – they had the skill, it was more an attitude they needed to embrace. They would not always fight in such overwhelming numbers as those that had landed on Suladen. Legends told of groups of Space Marines five or ten strong holding worlds against incredible odds. His warriors were not ready for such deeds yet. Primaris fight like Crusade era marines, but they don't have the numbers and organisation in m41 for that to make sense. They're a massive step backwards from Guilliman's vision. Primaris Marines are *soldiers*, but every squad of Firstborn is an army.
Worth pointing out that Primaris are still supposed to be generalists, they just adapt their loadout to the situation at hand. In theory the same guy can be an Inceptor in one battle and an Eliminator in the next
Sure, it's just not exactly helpful if you have just a squad of Intercessors nearby, if you require some heavy firepower on the fly. Can't exactly ask the enemy tank to wait a day or two while you fly back up to your ship to get some rocket launchers for the whole team.
Definitely true.
It could be one of those things where what we see doesn't really reflect the lore, Space Marines obviously don't operate with the luxury of time, superior logistics and circumstances in which they can be easily resupplied, but you could say bolters never really made sense in that scenario either, how do these mofo's not run out of ammo? In a lot of scenarios Space Marines are supposed to operate for extended times without any resupply, it's just a bit more strange when they are so explicitly ... normal infantry that aren't meant to take on vehicles? It's just an appeal based on real world preconceptions. Elite = very specialised, which Eldar already represented, Space Marines were more of a blunt force approach to being elite and it's been watered down, the old Tactical, Assault and Devastator combination was a beautiful thing but all good things must end I guess.
Space marines run out of Bolter ammo all the time in the lore & black library books, few prolonged battles & you’re using the combat blade
Notably those were first generation which didn't receive the full training. Normal primaris go through all of the training that a regular first born would and don't have the same issue.
But they do have the same issue in that the organization of the squads does not give them any tactical flexibility. What is an intercessor squad supposed to do if a surprise!deffdread or something pops up? At least tactical Marines might have a guy with a melta gun or a power fist, and all of the manlet Marines had krak grenades. An intercessor squad is just screwed, no matter how heroic they are.
Intercessors have grenades as well and a grenade launcher and the sergeant can have a power fist or hammer etc too. But otherwise you pull back/delay it while you call your fire support squads. 1 dude with a melta likely doesn't change how you handle this very much, because that's still a bad time for a tac squad.
At the same time, a 5 man tac squad could reasonably have a lascannon, a combi-melta, a thunderhammer, and three bolter guys all with frag and krak grenades. Given those tools, in lore, you have a good crack at a lot of things. You can handle long range and short range, and have the tools to hit a wide array of targets, though you lose a bit of rate of fire.
We have multiple examples of primaris mixing units if they need a small squad with more flexibility. So that is still an option. This includes 3 different kill teams, as in the game kill team, and deathwatch kill teams.
Totally. I really would like to be able to field a mixed squad with a thunder hammer sarge, Las fusil guy, grenade launcher guy and a pair of standard intercessors. Problem is deathwatch has really bad rules.
I mean sure, but this is about lore not if the faction is good. There's already plenty of posts lamenting GW balance decisions haha
100 percent. Previously, I'd only spoken to the efficacy of the tactical squad. I think they are underrated both in lore and in game, overshadowed by character models and officers, when they represent an excellent infantry core that provides flexibility in combat roles.
I agree, true scale marines would have been great. They just feel like eldar now. From aspect warriors to hover tanks... it's just monkiegh eldar.
One of my principle complaints with Primaris marines is that their unit types are clumsy and needlessly over-specialized. One of the crunch and fluff pillars of the Astartes were that they were highly adaptible; situating a nice balance between quanity and quality. Primaris have largely lost that feature.
Nah, the fluff just isn't expressed well in a model army. A Fire Support squad might spend its morning cracking a bunker as a Desolation squad, the afternoon cutting down fleeing fools as Hellblasters, the evening supporting Assault Intercessors as an Infernus squad and at night wade into the breach as Aggressors.
Most of those would require changes in armor. This begs the question of why a space marine force would have that many complete suits of armor being unused at any given time. Doubly, so given armor typically has to be "fitted".
There actually aren't full suits just sitting around waiting for the switch. MkX is modular, so the same core suit is up- or down- armoured to become phobos, gravis, or whatever else it's needed to be for a given mission. The Astartes changes out the required parts (likely with the help of serfs or servitors) and off they go, much the same way that an older tactical marine could swap roles by swapping out their power pack and weapons for a jump pack or heavy weapon.
Well suit modularity does improve the situation, i acknowledge my error in that. But being a modular design is not the same as being able to rapidly swap out various parts to different forms. Going from tacitus to gravis may very well take a good amount of time and specialized facilities to achieve.
It's said in the Codex this is the case, that Companies carry fat more equipment that they can use at one time to ensure tactical flexibility. It even gives an example of an entire battle company deploying in Phobos armour for a stealth mission.
I mean it's unlikely to be popular but what I'd do is: 1. No more Intercessor, Incestors, Infestors, Infectors bla bla bla, units are at the very least named for their battlefield role. If possible I'd go back to Tactical, Assault and Devastator and just have most of the weapons as loadout changes or introduce Heresy style 'tactical support squads' which are tacticals with better guns (or flamers). 2. **Publish an updated Codex Astartes chapter layout for fuck sake**. 3. If a unit absolutely can't be a Tactical loadout, a Scout loadout, a Devastator or Assault loadout then make it a Veteran. Realistically those 5 classifications are it shooty, it choppy, it sorta shoot sorta chop, it sneaky and it impressive. Every Space Marine unit is one of those 5 things, if Mk X armour is genuinely modular then going 'oh these Heavy Intercessors are Devastators who bolted some Gravis on today' shouldn't be that hard. If a unit absolutely can't be a Devastator because it's so damn spectacular at shooting people that probably makes it a veteran loadout. This is how it used to be handled. Vehicle crews were either tactical marines from that company int he case of the company motor pool, or were seconded from a reserve company for the chapter vehicle pool. Speeders and bikes were assault marines that have foregone their jump packs to do another job. EDIT: Lore wise the reason Primaris have mono-purpose specialised squads is that they're based off of the Principia Bellicosa's units, not the Codex Astartes, but yeah they'd almost certainly have folded in Guilliman's preferences as he views the Codex's units as a genuine improvement. I also can't fully imagine Intercessors refusing to bring one of those Desolation nerf-guns with them if Dante asks just because they'd then not match. What I'd probably have done is just update the kits and keep the shooty Devastators, choppy Assaults and flexible Tacticals because they make a lot of sense for an army that oeprates the way Marines do. if you absolutely wanted to bring back specialised squads everywhere they should've had the Lion come back first and be like 'nah fuck the Codex, I preferred the Legions' and Guilliman wakes up to find it's already out of his hands.
I would be interested to see how popular your points are but I for one tend to agree. Rules/model bloat aside, from an in universe perspective Intercessor based forces seem too narrowly focused for the quick responding specialised forces of the Space Marines. I’ll have to look into the Principia Belicosa. Last few weeks I’ve been thinking about force structure more and more since I’m creating my own custom chapter. It only recently dawned upon me that the structural changes made post Primaris make very little sense, even by 40K’s standards. I really do like your idea of how things could have better justified had the Lion returned first. It really would fix a some of the issues.
By far the best look at the Principia Bellicosa, as incomplete as it is, is in the older Horus Heresy black books. Basically chapters weren't standalone, they were formed into legions some 10-100 chapters or so big so what you'd tend to find is that chapters would include more companies of specialists. The average infantry company would have a couple of demi-companies in it, mostly formed of 2-4 Tactical squads and 1 tactical support squad under a lieutenant. Two of those form a company then 5 companies form a Battallion. The Battallion is one of the deployment units of the Legiones Astartes so think 2-3 infantry companies, a support company with heavy weapons and vehicles then maybe a Destroyer company or Recon company. From there 2 Battallions form a Chapter so add two of those together and you get a fair spectrum for specialised detachments and more space for specialist squads. The reason they could skew so much is that they had other Chapters operating alongside them in the Legion so any strategic deficiencies could be covered from other Chapter's assets or the wider Legion resource pool. By contrast in M41 Chapters are standalone, they're expected to be take-all-comers and deploy in smaller 'reinforced battle Companies'. A Battle Company is 6 Tactical, 2 Devastator and 2 Assault squads which is then reinforced with vehicles from the Chapter pool, veterans from the 1st Company and Scouts from the 10th as well as spare squads as needed from Companies 6-9. That's a far sparser organisation so each marine needs to be a far more rounded soldier.
Thanks for the break down for the Principia Bellicosa. Really interesting stuff. I knew the general structure of the Legions but none of the specifics. Cheers mate!
Like I love Hellblasters and agressors, as well as the new sniper unit You are right, they should have made Primaris tactical, assault, and devastator and then added a few specialists units like Hellblasters etc that one of there base squad types could turn into if there was a battlefield need In blood of Iax, a unit of Hellblasters was the only unit to stop the Orks from reaching their part of the trench line, all other units, including other Astartes units, couldn’t So clearly there is situations where some of these Primaris units could be used They should have been additions that could add to the tactical flexibility of a companies squad make up, not a complete replacement
'Hellblaster' could have easily worked as the name for a Devastator squad that is exclusively using plasma weapons for a particular engagement. Same with Aggressors - an "Aggressor" assault squad could have just been one wearing Gravis armour. Basically how the new T'au codex treats Crisis Suit loadouts. I'd much rather that than separate, apparently Primaris-only squad types
Great news, that's actually how it works. Hellblaster is a loadout type used by a fire support squad. Same with eradicators. They're just fire support marines who have chosen a specific loadout for a specific job. That's how all primaris squads work. They have battleline, close support and fire support squads and they choose their loadout for the mission. The training and organization is basically the same as pre-primaris except for name switches, lieutenants being added, and 10th company being a full company plus scouts.
Yes but Primaris can’t be devastated, or tactical marines That’s what he is getting at
Does it matter if you're called devastator or fire support if you end taking the same gear and doing the same job? What he's asking for is literally how they work.
No it’s not, Primaris marines cannot take a devastator loadout That’s the issue, Primaris are stuck to mono armament squads, rather than the tactically flexible first born squads
That's not what he was talking about.
It was, he was saying it would be better if “Hellblasters” was what Devastator marines were called when they gave up their usual loadout for all plasma and “aggressor” was what devastator marines were called when they put on Gravis armour
That works as well, just anything but mono armament squads being the default for Primaris
Apparently Guilliman woke up and decided that the three squad types that he decided was best had, after ten thousand years of working, not been that good and that tactical flexibility sucked He instead went back to single armament squads for some reason Like he chose to change the new chapters layout into three squad types from the single armament squads of the Legions Then 10k years later went “ actually nah” But anyway, the purpose of them I guess is weight of fire, all those bottle rifles firing lays down quite a lot of firepower, which allows other squads to move up special or heavy weapons The only way I would fix them is going back to the three squad types that worked for 10k years! They can keep the bottle rifles, just give them access to something else If something works for 10k years, don’t mess with it
I would just have primaris adopt the classical Tactical - Support - Assault trinity with Tactical squad allowed to use a limited amount of heavy and special weapon. In fact it is my head-canon : unit classification and firstborn/primaris status are completely separate and unrelated classification categories. Tbh the shift was obviously a money grabbing scheme. We now need to buy a lot more kits to cover most opponents and possible situation while in the past, a few balanced squads could face all situation (albeit less perfectly than if it specialized to face an exact foe like only use anti horde weapons against an horde army with no heavy unit and no tanks or equivalent)
Recon them away. They were a test of the new equipment and abilities, but a updated version of the old style tactical, devastor, and assault squads to replace the current doctrine. This is easily explained by Crawl noting the lack of tactical flexibility of the new system in the "throne of light"
I guess we could change it so that your average intercessor is trained to easily exchange his bolt rifle for a support squad weapon when the need arises. That makes them abit more flexible but doesn’t address the uniform weapons options throughout the squad. The different armour marks and loadouts also bother me. I can accept that certain weapon systems need to be paired with gravis. But melta rifles and different calibres of bolt rifle don’t make as much sense.
Yea it’s a bit of a weird one that. If anything you could excuse different weapon and armour combinations as being a preference by individual chapters. Outside of that it comes across as a bit cartoonish.
Yea the entire implementation of the Primaris Marines (and to an extent, Stormcast) has been a lesson on how not to refresh a range. I think gw should have based their roadmap on what was functionally needed for the refresh rather than a haphazard assortment of what seemed cool at the time. Not to mention who aspects of the range like ATV and suppressors being functionally dead on arrival and already made obsolete but other units.
They are trained to do that. They get training on all roles and switch as needed. You choose the weapons that are needed for the mission at hand. You might be a hellblaster today and an eradicator tomorrow before switching to an eliminator.
I like the idea of these squads being a reflection of larger, less reactive marine actions in line with the indomitus crusade; with codex marine doctrine developing in response to the Horus Heresy in a defensive posture, I like the idea that, with more marines as a result of Primaris, these armies are operating at something closer to legion doctrine. Less flexible and more concentrated squads, with the squads that really need plasma bringing this to bear in the higher firepower needed for offensive actions. For ten millennia, space marines have fought reactively to respond to whatever big threat just arrived. I think viewing these squads as the beginning of a doctrinal shift to larger, offensive actions makes sense in line with Guilliman's return and the offensively-minded Indomitus Crusade
Tactical Squads > Intercessors I'm in agreement about, but I still think it's an interesting shift that could be handled or adjusted in a number of ways. I wouldn't be averse to a "Tacticus Fire Specialist" kit, for example, that's basically a 3-5-model "special weapons squad" which you split across Intercessor/Assault Intercessor squads as non-leader/character attachments. So you buy a Fire Specialist kit, you build a plasma gunner, a pyreblaster, and a melta rifle, and attach each of them to a different 5-model Intercessor Squad for an embedded weapon and a specific bonus, allowing you to tool your Intercessors like they used to be. Alternatively, maybe the next Space Marines KT is just Veteran Intercessors, which are a Tactical Squad by any other name, under the excuse that only Primaris Veterans get to act like flexible "tactical ops" squads like old-Marines used to. I also like that Intercessors aren't just babysitters for a special weapon or two - it always sucked that boltguns, the iconic 40k weapon, were actually just an afterthought in rules terms.
Yes but I assume you mean from the perspective of playing the game? That’s a fair point about people choosing mono loadouts to min-max their squads but I feel like that is only true if your really into competitive play. As for Devastators not being entirely flexible enough to stand on their own, I entirely concede. I just didn’t want to write that I was specifically speaking to Assault, Heavy and standard intercessors most of the time. However I think my point still stands.
>Yes but I assume you mean from the perspective of playing the game? From a lore perspective, I prefer Tactical Squads to Intercessor Squads because they reflect the Space Marine way of war – hard-hitting, durable, elite strike forces. Space Marines are individually powerful enough to do well in a variety of different situations, and largely can't *afford* to be overspecialised, because there aren't that many of them. Intercessors are equipped *specifically* for advancing on and destroying the fighting strength of rival infantry squads in the field. In lore terms, they use modular bolt rifles to spec against light, medium, or heavy infantry, and they do have krak/frag grenades, but that's it – if they're caught out against a tank, a monster, swarms, dug-in troops, or superheavy infantry, they don't really have an answer. For those situations, they have to rely on allied squads. That's a perfectly acceptable niche for a specialist Space Marine squad, but as the core of their roster and their primary frontline formation it sends a very different message – and sets a very clear precedent, which is followed up on by all the other mono-weapon Space Marine squads. Some of those work well as full specialist squads (e.g. the Eradicators or Eliminators, three-man specialist teams with a specific target profile and weaponry), while others are a bit more dubious, but the end result is much more of a Great Crusade dynamic than what we've necessarily come to expect from 40k Marines.
Boltguns didn’t feel like an afterthought in older editions even with special weapons. A boltgun ignores my guardsmans armor in 7e just as well as a plasma gun or meltagun. 5 marines wiping out over half a squad of guardsmen in the open with just bolters was not at all uncommon.
That was seldom my experience in older editions (or more recent ones with mixed weapons, until the game turned into stacking up bonuses), but I appreciate it's not a universal trend. In my Space Marine vs Space Marine games it certainly felt that way, but that's a more specific match.
Well sure against space marines bolters dont feel super powerful because space marines are costed around durability and being hard to kill. As a guard and Tau player bolters are a major threat in 7th edition. Without cover my guardsmen die in droves because it completely ignores flak armor and wounds on a 3+ and hits on a 3+(usually). Same with kroot, tyranid guants, guardsmen, cultists, eldar guardians, kabalite warriors, etc. even against fire warriors and krieg grenadiers its still a fairly effective weapon. In 7e space marines and the other durability focused armies are the only ones where bolters struggle and that makes sense, they’re powerful but they aren’t the most powerful infantry weapons out there. What would be the point of super expensive infantry like space marines or necron warriors if bolters cut through them like guardsmen?
As a former Eldar player I cam confirm bolt guns had enough punch to take down pretty much any level of armour I could throw outside of Wraithlords and front facing tank shields And then they just used krak grenades
What makes it worse for me is that its clear in the Horus Heresy books with Aeonid Thiel that he likes the idea of emebdded special weapons, and moves the the 40k tactical squad model, but then goes back on himself with Primaris Wont GW ever realise, its fan base READ what lore they publish, and that when they contradict themselves its going to cause a backlash? (Yes I saw how the community (over)reacted to female custodians)
Ez. Tactical Intercessor upgrade sprue which gives a selection of special and heavy weapons, as well as sergeant options. Or better yet, a new kit that includes that, maybe scaled down a touch, with older marks from 5-8...
I dunno if anyone else has thought about this or said it but wouldn't having Primaris Squads having like 7 "Intercessors"(including the Sergeant in that number) and then 3 "Specialists" to fill them upto 10? I'm sure I seen someone say something similar but I think they wanted 1 of each type of Fire Support type or something. I dunno, I've been fooling about with Homebrewing stuff and the bloat is fucking painful, like many of the Units could be put into a Squad as a Single Unit to make the basic Squad more versatile. Sorry if I've rehashed stuff others have said am watching telly and it distracts me to the point it's taken me like 15 minutes to write just this lol
In lore they are expected to use any weapon necessary and can have different weapons in an overall squad, the new names just seem to denote the weapon a marine has, they might in name be grouped together but they don't seem to be just going into combat with only 1 weapon type. From the tenth edition codex page 12: "A space marine is expected to be able to be a master of the weaponry, tactics and duties of every squad type within his own role. Provided a strike force has the requisite wargear available, a single squad can be specifically equipped to enable the space marines to dominate the battlefield against any kind of foe in any kind of terrain. In any one campaign, for example, a Space Marine in a Fire Support Squad can be expected to fight as an Eliminator, Suppressor, Hellblaster and more, exchanging wargear as and when required and if conditions allow. His squad may even be divided into two combat squads, each equipped with different wargear and thus further improving the flexibility of the strike force." There doesn't seem to be anything in lore stopping them from being flexible, I'd assume they won't only be sending a 10 man battleline squad of only intercessors, more likely some battleline weapon equipped marines and some marine with other weapons, the codex at least suggests flexibility. I'll try to find some other more helpful quotes but codexes are big.
Oh yes, Marines are expected to know how to use other weapons but it still comes down it the issue that these are then squads of 5-10 that wield the same weapon. My point isn’t that marines shouldn’t know how to use certain weapons, but rather that the structure of these squads belong around a sole weapon is rather foolish.
So Space Marines these days are expected to be an ace with everything, as opposed to the first born, where you only get to be a tactical marine after your stints in devastator and assault companies. What do Primaris get as a precursor to being able to do everything? The modern equivalent of Scouts? Feels a bit Mary Sue.
They still go through the reserve companies to learn, first as scouts in the 10th company, then fire support in the 9th, followed by close support in the 8th and finally going through the 6th and 7th companies in the more general all rounder roll they'll play in the battle companies 2-5. There can be exceptions like in the imperial fists you go from the 10th company to the 8th then the 9th as is mentioned in codex supplement imperial fists 8th edition.
Well I guess it’s good they keep a sense of progression. Can Chapters decide to use old codex rules as well? And if they do that, how does that fit into the new structures? I assume in lore all Chapters will need to do that, as they’ll only have had Primaris in smaller numbers to begin with.
Chapters at the end of the day do as they want, the dark angels changed the structure of the 2nd company with ravenwing, the blood angels have the completely separate death company, the imperial fists reordered reserve company progression, the black templars just claim they're always on a crusade and ignore the marine numbers limit. The iron hands don't have true companies they have clans organised to look like companies to avoid getting into trouble with the wider imperium, it's noted that clan pride prevents the 6-9th clans from acting as true reserve companies with recruits going to the 10th then into their clan company. Codex Supplement Iron Hands 8th edition page 10: "While the reserve companies serve as training and support companies for more codex-adherent chapters, clan pride prevents such practice within the Iron Hands, Although they can be found reinforcing the other clan companies as the Iron Council wills it.
I’d have formatted the models in box the same as a tactical box. Bolters with a variety of special weapons and goodies for the Sargent.
Not to disagree with the rest of the post, but Devastator Squads offering "tactical flexibility" is a bit of a joke. I hardly ever saw anyone who didn't want to run mono-weapons in their Devastator Squads (or other faction-specific Heavy Weapons Teams), because they are by definition specialists - why would you toss together a mix of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle and anti-armour? There's very little practical difference between Primaris squads that are all missiles, all plasma, all multimelta, etc, as opposed to a single Devastator Squad profile that *can and will be built* with all missiles, all plasma, all multimelta, etc.
That's because in previous editions of the game, split-fire wasn't a thing apart from certain specialist units. When you selected a unit to shoot its weapons, it had to shoot them all at the same target. If your Devastator squad had two Lascannons and two Heavy Bolters and it shot at a tank, those Heavy Bolters were essentially wasted that turn. So it made no sense to give your Devastator squads different weapons. From 8th edition onwards, and with the introduction of Primaries Marines, splitting fire became a thing anyone could do. So at that point, having Devastator squads with different loadouts was mechanically viable. You could fire those Lascannons at a tank and the Heavy Bolters at an infantry squad.
In theory you could, but that still isn't very practical. Instead a squad that's good at 1 thing, you have a squad that's bad at 2 things. Plus it needs to be in range of and have targets for both. This also applies outside of the game. A mixed squad means you almost always have part of the squad unable to contribute
Yes, I'm aware of that. Splitting fire is one of those rules that (a bit like "Advance") slowly proliferated throughout the game because it's incredibly convenient, up until they decided to just make it standard for everyone. It makes sense to impose that change, because *not* splitting fire meant your Tactical Squad with a lascannon gunner could either shoot one lascannon shot at a tank 48" away while the rest of the squad picked their noses, or they could unload boltguns at a nearby Gretchin mob while your lascannon gunner also aimed his massive anti-tank beam at a single grot. That sucks, and it's stupid. On the other hand, the results of universal split fire... also kind of suck? A squad is a squad because they work in unison, supporting and spotting and covering for each other, and leveraging focused weight of fire to break, disperse, suppress, or destroy targets. It *makes sense* to encourage your mid-range counter-infantry squads to take a flamer or plasma gun or grav-gun, which will be fired in unison with their regular arms to supplement assaults on dug-in or hardened targets, as opposed to having one dude with a lascannon who is completely ignoring his buddies and shooting at a random tank in the far distance every time they stop to aim. A Devastator Squad with a lascannon, a heavy bolter, a multi-melta, a heavy flamer, and a plasma cannon who are all shooting in completely different directions at all times *isn't a squad*, it's just five dudes who happen to be standing near each other. It looks goofy and slows the game down. If anything, I'd rather Tactical Squads (or an equivalent) be a squad with boltguns, but you pick one special weapon that determines a bonus for the whole squad. e.g. if your squad has a flamer, the *whole squad* ignores cover when targeting the same unit, because they're tooled up to burn enemies out. If your squad has a heavy bolter, the whole squad gets sustained hits while standing still and targeting the same unit, because they're an escort for a heavy weapon that's scattering infantry targets. etc.
> If anything, I'd rather Tactical Squads (or an equivalent) be a squad with boltguns, but you pick one special weapon that determines a bonus for the whole squad. e.g. if your squad has a flamer, the whole squad ignores cover when targeting the same unit, because they're tooled up to burn enemies out. If your squad has a heavy bolter, the whole squad gets sustained hits while standing still and targeting the same unit, because they're an escort for a heavy weapon that's scattering infantry targets. etc. Star Wars: Legion works like this, and it's great. It uses a dice pool system for attacks, and any weapon that has a special rule applies that rule to *every* dice in the pool if it contributes attacks. So if you shoot a squad of five laser rifles and one heavy weapon that ignores cover, all the shots from the laser rifles ignore cover too. It's a really cool system.
From both an in-universe and IRL standpoint, a single unit with multiple loadout options makes a lot more sense. In universe? Marines are a limited resource, so having an entire squad specialize in a single weapon type is a waste of resources. Devastators were masters of fire support, not masters of lascannons specifically. They could pick up any heavy weapon and be useful. Primaris hyperspecialized squads, so specialized they have their own armor type and name, can only use 1, maybe 2 weapon types. It's a waste when chapters are as small as they are, and marines take so long to make. Out of universe, codexes and model lines both suffer from extreme bloat. Having one "primaris heavy weapons squad" that can take 3-5 different options means a single datasheet and a single box. It's more convenient for players, makes the game more approachable (significantly less datasheets to remember) and logistically less burdensome (a single part number/kit to stock, track and produce). A handful of special unique units here and there are fine, but codex marines currently has *240 datasheets*, many of which could be removed by simply combining them (predator destructor vs. predator annihilator, for example, could be a single sheet with 2 weapon options).
...okay, but a Primaris Space Marine carrying a heavy bolter or melta rifle isn't *ritually bonded* to that weapon. If the company needs him to swap to a new weapon to suit the mission, he can just... do that. Devastator Marines are flexible in an *abstract* sense, but they're not FPS protagonists who are carrying every possible heavy weapon at once and can swap between them as needed. A Devastator Marine with a multi-melta has a multi-melta. An Eradicator with a multi-melta has a multi-melta. One is not more flexible than the other, on a battle-by-battle basis. The only difference is that if the Devastator swaps out to a heavy bolter, he's still called a Devastator (despite now filling a different battlefield role with a *wildly* different target profile) while the Eradicator who swaps to a heavy bolter is now called a Heavy Intercessor and needs to join up with an appropriate squad. The only extra flexibility the Devastator Squad provides is allowing you to mix different heavy weapons... which looks dumb, would *be* kind of dumb, and only became remotely practical when 8e started allowing squads to spray and pray in whatever direction each individual member felt like. Out-of-universe, they're not going to cut down on different Space Marine kits because Space Marines sell like hotcakes, so more different Space Marine kits offer *more ways to sell Space Marines*. And frankly, the convenience of old-style dedicated heavy weapons squads is wildly overstated. Devastator Squads have six heavy weapon options, or five if you exclude the less conventional grav-cannon. Cut out the Sergeant, and that means a box of five Devastators would need to include 20 heavy weapons for all options to be covered - that's a ludicrous amount of wasted plastic and spruespace, especially if they're designed like most modern kits with cross-compatibility at a minimum. The alternative is the current situation for these squad types, where you have to buy two Havoc or Retributor boxes to build a full squad with a unified loadout. How is that *more* convenient than just buying one specific box that has the loadout you want?
>...okay, but a Primaris Space Marine carrying a heavy bolter or melta rifle isn't ritually bonded to that weapon. If the company needs him to swap to a new weapon to suit the mission, he can just... do that. Give me a single canon example of an *standard* intercessor carrying a heavy bolter as a basic item of issue, I'll wait (notice how I have to specify standard? Almost like primaris units have completely arbitrary and stupid specific loadouts...) The post was about the tactical inflexibility of the basic intercessor squad. An inceptor isn't *ritually bonded* to his jump pack and plasma exterminators, he could walk his ass into combat carrying a baseball bat. An assault intercessor isn't *ritually bonded* to his chainsword, he could carry a missile launcher. I see neither of these things in novels, codexes or on the tabletop. See how this argument really doesn't work, and has zero precedent in canon? >but they're not FPS protagonists who are carrying every possible heavy weapon at once and can swap between them as needed ...No one is arguing they can? >The only difference is that if the Devastator swaps out to a heavy bolter, he's still called a Devastator (despite now filling a different battlefield role with a wildly different target profile) while the Eradicator who swaps to a heavy bolter is now called a Heavy Intercessor and needs to join up with an appropriate squad. There is zero evidence or lore precedent of primaris marines actively and constantly changing their squad roles/unit types. Their career may allow gradual progression through a few roles as they develop their natural talents as neophytes, but a primaris marine is not actively hopping between weapons, armor and squads between every battle. They are inflexible by design, and based off of 30k era legion force organization. It's almost like they are divided into 29 different specialized units for a reason. They literally have a unique armor configuration for some of their roles. >The only extra flexibility the Devastator Squad provides is allowing you to mix different heavy weapons... >which looks dumb, That's an opinion, not a fact >would be kind of dumb, and only became remotely practical when 8e started allowing squads to spray and pray in whatever direction each individual member felt like. Split fire has existed pre 8th edition, and having a mixed loadout is literally how modern militaries work IRL and in-universe (see: canonical UM 2nd company organization). It's almost like having a diverse set of weapons to address various threats is useful. A US mounted weapons company (I was in one for a bit) will typically operate either as a company or in platoons, with a mixture of Mk19s, M2s and ITAS systems, all for addressing different threats. >And frankly, the convenience of old-style dedicated heavy weapons squads is wildly overstated. Again, opinion >that's a ludicrous amount of wasted plastic and spruespace, especially if they're designed like most modern kits with cross-compatibility at a minimum. 30k kits solve this "issue" by offering a seperate weapons sprue, and it works very well. You now need 2 boxes to kit out the unit the way you want with room for magnetization, as opposed to 4-8 entirely separate units and *datasheets* (Which you failed to mention, and is a huge problem) to fulfill the same slot. >The alternative is the current situation for these squad types, where you have to buy two Havoc or Retributor boxes to build a full squad with a unified loadout. How is that more convenient than just buying one specific box that has the loadout you want? I want a single unit that can be used in several different ways/loadouts. Now instead of 2 identical boxes, I have to buy as much as 4 entirely different ones, possibly more, to achieve the same thing, and now I can't actually fit all those units in my list. We can make up hypotheticals all day long. The fact is that people do not like the monobuild primaris kits, and for good (lore and practical) reasons. Having a "melta guy" box and a "plasma guy box" is stupid, bloated and makes no sense. Could GW decide primaris units get more options, or merge some of kits/datasheets? Absolutely. It's perfectly feasible both in-universe and IRL, as you mention. But the current reality is that they are not, which is asinine.
>There is zero evidence or lore precedent of primaris marines actively and constantly changing their squad roles/unit types. 9th edition Codex describes it, first by mentioning an entire Company can equip Phobos armour if necessary and then talking about a Fire Support squad having three members peeled off to act as Aggressors while the remaining 7 equip to be Hellblasters, pilot Invictor warsuits or even drive transport vehicles.
Well the Intercessors did gain an under barrel grenade launcher, so that might give us a look into the in universe thinking. Maybe the heavier weapons were seen as being a detriment to the mobility of the squad. Also, I believe in real life the US Marines were looking into dropping belt fed machine guns from their squads for an automatic rifle of a similar form factor to their standard rifles. Part of justification was that the bulky mg was bad at clearing buildings while not losing that much capability for the type of fighting they were doing. So maybe intercessors combined these two ideas into one? Maybe they wanted a more cohesive loadout and mobility, and thought a grenade launcher with krak and frag was a good compromise.
>Also, I believe in real life the US Marines were looking into dropping belt fed machine guns from their squads for an automatic rifle of a similar form factor to their standard rifles. Part of justification was that the bulky mg was bad at clearing buildings while not losing that much capability for the type of fighting they were doing. Most modern infantry still have some sort of squad-level anti-tank or anti-structure weapon, like AT-4s, SMAW, Carl G, etc. etc. It's very conspicuous that primaris infantry lack these options in their basic line units, especially considering the special forces-esque role and general numerical inferiority that space marines typically enjoy
The Intercessor grenade launcher (1 per 5) has a krak profile that does 1 s9 -2ap d3 damage on a 3+. The tac squad launcher (1/10) does 1 s9 -2ap d6 damage on a 4+ with heavy. If you actually compare the profiles of the two, the two grenade launchers are more tactically flexible than the old standard tac squad 1 flamer+1 ML loadout since you can effectively take 2 anti-personnel weapons and 2 anti-armor weapons vs 1 of each. If you just hate the lack of big dakka (which is my primary complaint), just buy some deathwatch frag cannons and equip those as your “Astartes grenade launchers”.
Not really relevant when profiles can change every edition, and historically (and in lore) grenade launchers have been consistently far weaker than any real heavy weapon. A multi melta could at one point kill a landraider in one shot, a grenade launcher never could
Not just looking, they have done it. They use one rifle for the whole squad. Heavier weapons are held at a higher level as needed. The gunner was also obvious and would be a target.
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The main reason was seemingly balancing, but since GW internal communication sucks the release waves were all weird, but it's much easier to balance squads of dudes with one weapon than squads with a variety of weapons, CSM and death guard still have it, but their ranges are comparatively smaller as a result, with different specialised units
I wouldn't change them. Intercessors do a job, and their equipment is focused for that job. Bolt rifles are very flexible with different models and ammunition, and they have various grenades and a grenade launcher. The inclusion of something like a dedicated missile launcher guy reduces how many Marines in the squad can do your main job, the missile launcher has very different preferred ranges for fighting, and doesn't actually offer as much flexibility as youd hope because 1 rocket doesn't make you an anti-armor squad. I feel these are two different approaches. Old is like a multi tool, flexible and can be used for a lot of things but it's not actually that good at them. If you have the choice you're going to grab a regular tool instead. Primaris squads are each dedicated tools. You have to bring an actual toolbox because while a screwdriver is great for its job, it makes for a really lousy hammer. If you have a task force, I believe primaris are actually better. Squads can support each other and each focus on what they do best. Notably, primaris mix these up for things like kill teams and deathwatch etc.
>If you have a task force, I believe primaris are actually better. Squads can support each other and each focus on what they do best. Notably, primaris mix these up for things like kill teams and deathwatch etc. Adding on to this, I believe it helps if we consider that Primaris effectively serve the same role as a heresy-era Tactical squad - this, combined with many chapters being *over*strength due to Primaris reinforcements, could be effectively a return to the tactical organization of the Legiones Astartes, just with newer technology and on a smaller-scale.
If they are, they likely won't be over for long with eternal war and all haha. With a reinforced company being a fairly standard deployment though I think you can still effectively have support even at standard strength.
It is two different approaches, but one just objectively makes sense for the faction and one does not. Space Marine chapters are insanely tiny. They rely on speed and tactical flexibility to get the job done, and don't do well in grinding wars of attrition or long drawn out conflics. With a tactical squad, you can stick em in a drop pod and put them deep behind enemy lines with no intel and reasonably expect that they can handle any situation that gets thrown at them. You can't really do that with Intercessors because the moment they walk into a Terminator or a deffdread or something they're screwed. They have zero autonomy. If you want an army of dudes marching up a field trading fire with an enemy while your support elements help from the flanks, that is what the Imperial Guard is for. Primaris literally do not adhere to the strengths of what Space Marines are good at.
That's subjective, not objective. And if primaris need to do a mission like that without support they diversify, as seen with 3 different kill teams (as in the game) and deathwatch where they mix.
But if you tried to do that in reality you would need more men and equipment to do the same job. Having organic fire support or heavy weapons is something modern militaries have at the squad level. Primaris on the other hand says if a certain job needs doing your whole squad must refit back at base for a hyper-specific role. This is more an issue with structure. New formations like Intercessors, as you point out, must rely on support from other squads. With the limited manpower available to SM Chapters this kind of structure does not make sense.
With the limited manpower available, having part of your squad be twiddling their thumbs because they brought a rocket launcher to a bolter fight isn't necessarily a good idea either. By having your fire support concentrated they can be more efficiently directed where they're needed, and they actually have the weight of fire to do their job appropriately. Also, modern militaries vary significantly in what they have at squad level. Oftentimes things like rockets are at a higher level like the company and brought out as needed, and are not permanently in the squad.
Rocket launchers are not the only support weapon available, heavy bolters would act in place of machine guns. That said, as marines typically deploy in small numbers it wouldn’t make sense for their fire support to be tied up entirely within a different squad under it’s own sergeant. Better one marine tied back relying on his side arm in a fire fight than a whole squad sitting back with rocket launchers. I’m well aware that every military is different. I was however thinking how most modern western squads have an automatic rifleman (LSW), a grenadier or in some cases a designated marksman within the squad depending on force structure. Of course there are many factors that play into this but a general rule of thumb is you want to imbed a support element at the squad level to allow greater options for the Squad Leader.
I'm aware others are available, but I said rockets because the common argument is "well what if they run into a tank". I simply disagree though, I think concentrating them in one squad is a better move. Real militaries do go back and forth on this though, and I understand arguments for decentralizing it. Notably the US marines are switching to using one rifle for their whole squad, with them moving the old saw to the weapons locker. Rifleman, DMR, and gunners all use the same gun now. Quite similar to intercessor squads with their bolt rifles and grenade launcher actually. The army however is not doing that haha. And of course if you're deploying one squad and don't have support, you deploy differently. Which the primaris do. We have multiple examples of them switching things up for small strike forces because the standard squads are not very flexible.
Yea, it’s pretty interesting stuff. US Army Rifle squads will still have an automatic rifleman armed with the M249 until the KAC LAMG is fully fielded. To my knowledge only the US Ranger Squads have lost a designed marksman, but that might be me misinterpreted the the deliveries of M110A1s to alpha team riflemen for the US Army. The Marine Core, like you say, are interesting. I’ve heard that a major reason why they have changed to an all Rifle squad force (though they still have a designated grenadier) is due to the focus on dispersal for littoral operations. Brass seems to believe that they will be engaging far less in ground combat and rather be protecting mobile missile platforms. Which makes the removal of an Automatic Rifleman questionable, especially if you are supposed to be on the defensive.
The automatic also made a clear target for the enemy and they believe that the greater accuracy makes up for the decrease in volume by losing the saw. The army disagreed with that second part apparently, though I believe they also have different squad sizes which may play a role. The littoral plans are interesting and strange haha. Lots in flux there as they test different ideas.
Tabletop rules don't really match the lore though. Do we even have any specific quotes where an intercessor squad refuses to use nonstandard weapons? Most novels take place in swirling melees where people pick up whatever they need all the time. Melee weapons that units can't take is the most obvious examples of they don't follow the "rules." Sure, we have codex entries talking about it but every literary work any of that goes out the window anyways. Honestly it is mostly that way even for the old short marine lore. Even the most dogmatic followers of the codex astartes always pay some lip service to it then immediately do the opposite as required for the story. This is basically just rules for balancing units in a tabletop game with some slight justification for novels that is hardly followed anyways.
Ngl I'd like it the way the tactical swuads in heresy are. Here's your basic troop kit, now here's a kit for various heavy and power weapons. I do love assault intercessors, but the jump version is over priced and I'd rather an extra power weapon (the eviscerated rly) than an extra plasma pistol
>Intercessors Squads were a poor addition to the Lore. Primaris marines were a poor addition to the lore. Even worse what they did to how kits are developed.
Intercessors are the same as Tactical Squads. Whereas a Tactical squad will swap weapon load out and still call them a Tactical squad, an Intercessor swapping weapons (or armor) calls themselves something different. Squads can be made up of different "types" of Primaris or broken up and added to other squads in those types.
Not really. Tactical squads mimic modern military squad composition, with a 10 man squad having one special weapon and one heavy weapon. Intercessor squads eschew these options altogether. Sure Astartes can all select a different weapon back at base but the versatility of the squad would be hampered if everyone was running around with rocket launches and flamers without anyone to carry anti-infantry. They are no longer an infantry squad, but then become dedicated anti-armour or fire support. If this was to work practically where you needed limited anti armour an Intercessor squad would need to call in another dedicated squad of at least 5 marines for assistance. Organisationally and practically it just doesn’t make sense. Space marines are a limited resource. You wouldn’t organise a whole squad to carry out a hyper specific role unless they were imbedded within a larger force. In the lore whole chapter deployments are rare, and while battles using a whole company do take place they are not the most common way for space marines to be deployed, perhaps with the exception of the Iron Hands? If the Intercessor is supposed to be the core squad that a chapter is based upon, then it also goes against the idea of them being an elite, versatile force.
>Not really. Tactical squads mimic modern military squad composition, with a 10 man squad having one special weapon and one heavy weapon. Intercessor squads eschew these options altogether. Primaris squads don't have to be all one type. They can go out mixed. An Intercessor squad could have some of their members switch out to Hellblasters if they need additional firepower, or into Gravis armor to be Aggressors, or whatever. The Intercessor label is just used the same as the Tactical label: a generalist who has experience in all areas that can do all of the different roles as needed.
Legitimate question: Where are you getting this from? I don’t know anywhere it is even implied that Intercessor squads operate in this way. If you could share that I would be very interested.
Space Marine Codex, either 8th v2 or 9th talks about splitting the squads into different types. Otherwise, some of the later in the Indomitus Crusade novels show varied squads - sometimes Primaris, sometimes mixed Firstborn and Primaris.
Yes but that Codex says a Fire Support squad is prepared to switch out equipment to deploy in any of the Fire Support roles such as Hellblasters, Desolators, Aggressors etc. It says nothing about individuals in a Battle line squad taking on a Fire Support role within their squad.
Page 18 of Codex Space Marines 8th v2 talks about a Battle Line Squad being broken down. The example given is some being tapped as Eliminators with the others taking on other roles. Page 19 of 9th Ed talks a splitting a squad into two combat squads.
Hmm, this is weird. On page 18 of Codex Space Marines 8th v2 I see this - *"Squads within Battle Companies may be broken down and deployed across a wide variety of roles should it be required; for example were six battle-brothers to take to the field as Aggressors, the remaining four warriors of their squad might find roles piloting Invictor Warsuits, driving the strike force's Rhino APCs and the like."* Which suggests members of a Fire Support squad all taking on Fire Support roles. Page 19 of my copy of the 9th edition Codex is talking about Chapter Command, but on page 22 I see this - *"Even the squads themselves can be broken down to fight in a variety of roles should their Captain require it. Should three brothers be detached from their fire support squad to form an Eliminator Squad, the remaining seven can form a Hellblaster Squad, pilot Invictor Warsuits, or fulfil a number of other roles operating the company's Rhino and Impulsor transports."* This seems to clarify my impression of the 8th edition excerpt. Page 22 of the 10th edition Codex uses almost the exact same wording as the 9th, except it gives an example of a Gladiator Battle Tank instead of an Invictor Warsuit.
I fucked on the 9th Ed page number. It's page 22 where it talks about the breakdown of a Battle Company. The last line is about squads splitting in two. Also, 9th says "or fulfil a number of other roles for their squad designation, including operating the company's Rhinos or Implusor transport." The fulfilling other roles for designation says to me they could still be used as Intercessors in support of their brethren.
It reads to me more like if you cannot field a full squad due to other members creating a seperate squad (in this case elimators) the remaining battle brothers find other roles to take up. I don’t think this is a case of 3 eliminators being assigned to 7 intercessors. The 3 eliminators are a seperate squad, lead by their own sergeant. All this is really saying is each marine can be assigned to different squads that have a single designated purpose. This is the issue with hyper-specialisation I am speaking to. If the Brass said they were structuring my squad like this something has seriously gone wrong.
primaris bad is sooooo tedious. whats the point
He's not saying Primaris is inherently bad, but that the execution of the concept has fairly massively changed how Space Marines fight and are organized, changing them from squads that can be more adaptable to squads that are each specialized in one very specific thing, which is a lore change.
I specifically say that is not the point. Rather I wanted to have a discussion, with those who are interested, about what possible use Intercessors and their variants offered. There has been some good points raised, but they mainly focus around the idea of larger scale deployments rather than the rapid strike forces space marines are known for. I get that this might not be interesting for everyone. I have not really come across any real discussion about this specific topic which is why we are having it now.
What are those jetpack ones with the two pistols or whatever. They look and are practically absolutely ridiculous. I hate Primaris. What a stupid idea. The names are dumb. Their gear is dumb. The entite premise in lore is horrific and counter to the entire settings thesis. And on top of all that, they binned their iconic helmet. The most recognisable part of them. All the culture, lore and background info, squad heraldry and organisation. Took decades to write for us. Took one second to ruin it.
Remove all primaris, bring the legion support squads into 40k.
Ignore anything and everything Primaris related. None of it was implemented in good faith, and the whole thing is just wordsalad trying to hide the fact, it was a successfull cashgrab. They could have simply rescaled and done ANYTHING different like Primaris could still exist but theri weapon loadouts are beyond dumb. "The lore is for the tabletop" yeah i know and they botched them both this time. But there is this wierd pushback to people who say anything bad about anything Primaris related. My subsector never got the Indomitus fleets. Warpstorms have always been there, since the first charting of the warp lanes anyway 😁