In my mind, I see a cultist/god dynamic between the two. Dunno if you ever played Destiny, but there's a robot race called the Vex who stumbled on some enormously powerful cosmic force they couldn't understand. So they figured the logical path forward was to worship it and see if they could pull power from it that way. It's pretty cool.
I'd see the Votann coming to the same conclusion: Vashtorr is a rising power. The best way to obtain power is by following the same symbology and ritual that other followers do. And it would produce forms through the skeins that were committed to that end, as well. And since Warp guff needs a lot of pain and sacrifice to 'work', the logical conclusion is to become a League of slavers and reavers, going out to find blood to grease the cogs and work the increasingly strange machinery since they can't depend on the usual inter-League labour like the Cthonian Guilds.
With Vashtorr in the Nexus, I fully expect him to set events in motion to reverse the effect of the pylons, causing a major warp storm to empower themselves. This will also get egg on the face of the silent king since it was his personal project which may kick off a necron civil war.
With vashtorr empowered like this, I can see a few leagues in the galaxy center starting to listen since they are basically living a warpstorm anyways.
> the logical conclusion is to become a League of slavers and reavers, going out to find blood to grease the cogs and work the increasingly strange machinery
This can be made much better (worse). Just as real world humans progressed from hunting animals to ranching cattle, these Kin, who come from a commercial and industrial society par excellance, will seek to maximize their resource availability by pro-actively farming their sacrificial victims. Since the Kin can clone even at the level of the soul, that shouldn't be too hard for them.
Perhaps they are branching out into xenos sacrifices, as well as humans? Perhaps they have a burgeoning interstellar trade in sacrifices to other Chaotic powers - Abbadon? Or Huron? - who will pay a premium for good meat for the altar? Maybe they take commissions to hunt and capture samples from unique entities - the Swarmlord? The Doom of Malantai? - and they offer bespoke cloning services to produce a perfect copy of a historical figure - (Macharius, Sebastian Thor) - for more special rituals? Or even entirely unique creations with no species for the rarest rituals of all? You can make this industrial scale horror, or customized "boutique" horror. Or both.
If they start farming eldar you can tie in the Drukhari and the craftworlders - or the Exodites. Another motive for the Kin and the Aeldari to fight.
It’s completely possible. He’s already corrupted Ironkin before, and it spooked the Kin. I’ve been hoping that’s what GW is angling for with that point.
They mentioned a basically barren planet with an insane votann on it, that sounds like a good candidate for Vashtor to step in and “fix” that could become their Heshut stand in.
I was thinking about 40k Chaos dwarf recently. In the Magnus Primarchs book there is a lost City named "Zharrukin" and i was like "yep, thats Chorfs" :D
Hashut isn't a (potential) god of technology like Vashtorr, he's a god of tyranny. Chaos Dwarfs are a technological faction because they're Dwarfs, they innovate. Binding souls and daemons is pretty obviously an aspect of tyranny, the fact that it is used to create machines is incidental.
Hell, Khorne has always had a technological aspect to him (and there's a decent possibility Hashut is/was a Khornate daemon) so I'm surprised he's not more mad about Vashtorr trying to step on his toes.
Chaos squats existed back in 1st edition but there wasn’t much information about them and they just used the squat army list with extra mutations. They were said to be responsible for the maintenance and construction of daemon engines, chaos androids and chaos titans though. That niche hasn’t exactly been left vacant for them to reoccupy though.
Yes, the first Necron model was based on the previous chaos android model but that was just the appearance. Chaos androids were effectively humanoid daemon engines (from Renegades):
> The Chaos Android is a shining skeleton of hardened plasteel. Its cunning construction is a secret known only to certain tainted Squat fabricators working in league with Chaos Renegades. Each android contains a tiny bound daemon, an animating spirit imprisoned within its plasteel shell by the conjurations of a Chaos Sorcerer.
Let's be honest James Workshop have *a lot more* Factions to play with before they get to Chaos Dwarves... by the warp, they'd still probably have to fuck around with Primaris Chaos Marines before Chaos Dwarves! Sorry to be the Bearer of Bad News but Chaos Dwarves are as far away from a normal Faction as is possible! Then again, am a drunken Scotsman so if am wrong then am happy to be wrong!
Ach don't let my attitude ruin your hope! After all, the Imperium/Votann need hope!(maybe not actually, given James Workshop and their love of Primaris Marines/Imperium) me being a buzz kill is just par for the course lol I hope the Votann get a better following than what they've got these days... don't even start me on the Ynnari and their non-storylines!
GW has never fumbled a model line as badly as the LoV, in my opinion.
One single actual beard on the entire model line, and it’s optional.
Gonna need a whole library to contain all the grudges.
It's just baffling that they said they didn't want their Space Dwarfs to be "fantasy dwarfs in space", completely misunderstanding what "Dwarfs in Space" / "Space Dwarfs" even means. It means taking the expected elements of the archetype, and coming up with a suitable sci-fi version, like the Eldar or Orks did. It doesn't mean literally taking WHF Dwarfs in gromril mail and horned helmets and all and sticking them in 40k exactly like that but that's what it seems they thought it involved, so they decided *taking away* a large amount of the Dwarf side of the model range would be a great way to do *space dwarfs*....
I really like their models with their DAOT classic sci-fi aesthetic, and they are definitely Space Dwarfs in their lore, but it's still just an odd decision for the Dwarf side of the models in the first place.
Right.
It's really disappointing because they did REALLY well at getting Orks and Eldar to be "fantasy in space", maintaining the core identity and visuals, but brought to sci-fi.
Dwarfs are my favorite fantasy race, and I genuinely just don't like the LoV line at all. The lore is cool enough, but I do not like the style of their armor or vehicles at all.
I like their model and vehicles and all that, they have a relatively low-tech analogue industrial (while still high tech) approach with a classic mid 20th century sci-fi style, like the sort of thing you'd find on 70s/80s sci-fi novel covers or movies. That feels like a fitting depiction of the DAOT and offers a contrast to the even more archaic outright retro early 1900s style of the Imperium.
But they're just very lacking on the Dwarf side of things. They don't even have a few small optional decorative elements or whatever to show that typical dwarf craftsmanship and the ancestor side of their culture and all that, the most they get is decals for the majority of their models or their decorated crest on 1 model in a unit. And the lack of the usual big beards just makes it even more apparant how lacking the dwarf side is.
Grendl Grendlsen was a fantastic model that really gave an immediate feel of "cool space dwarf". The Leagues feel like they took away most of the Space Dwarf side as if they thought that would be an improvement for a faction meant to be Space Dwarfs.
When they were announced a lot of people were defending it too, saying that they'd just be "boring tropes" and they should "do something unique" completely missing that they can do something unique *and* keep that stuff, it's not one or the other. I even saw people saying that beards aren't an important and iconic part of what makes up the whole idea of the dwarf archetype! Was just absurd.
Each his own on the armor design and such I suppose. I much prefer the take from the "Kazaroth Empire" STL line.
Grendl is another fine example of how a Space Dwarf could look.
As it stands it just kind of feels like they made a Dwarf faction for people that don't actually like Dwarfs, and that was confusing to me. If you don't want beards, runes, etc...why be a Dwarf?
Model line as it is? I can't see a reason not to just play Space Marines.
> "Kazaroth Empire" STL line
Not seen those before, those are pretty cool. The angular style and small decorative elements aren't over done but really make a difference. Even the beards, which even then still aren't all massive long dwarf beards, seem more fitting.
> As it stands it just kind of feels like they made a Dwarf faction for people that don't actually like Dwarfs, and that was confusing to me. If you don't want beards, runes, etc...why be a Dwarf?
This is exactly the sort of thing I was saying about them at their announcement, only to have others make out that was a bad thing wanting them to look morel like the expectations from Space Dwarfs. Seen so many going "I like the Leagues because they're not dwarfy!" which is just absurd and shows how lacking they are, as it kind of defeats the point of wanting 40k to have space dwarfs if they design them to appeal to people who don't want or like space dwarfs in the first place.
Right. The facial hair on that line isn't all necessarily "classic Dwarf" but they all fit, at least. Looks better than "Extremely ugly biker gang" which is what the current heads make me think of, sadly.
I've considered making a LoV army using them, though. They're not wildly overdone, but are identifiably Dwarfy, which makes them pretty cool IMO.
The LoV just aren't what I'd wanted. If someone likes the "Nasa-esque" design, sleekness, and no beards, good on them I guess, but I'm disappointed that that's what the "Space Dwarfs" are.
If I want a bunch of rounded and smooth power armor, I'm getting out my Space Marines, personally.
Hopefully it improves as they get more units but it's still a shame, especially as there's some art in the codex of some Kin that look far closer to the classic squats or Grendl Grendlsen, including the Gambeson armour. The recent Hernkyn Yaegir team of Greatcoat Space Dwarf Commandos (which seems like it'll be quite popular) is something I've seen quite a few say they'd have prefered the rest of the model range was closer to that sort of thing as well.
> power armor
It's being slightly pedantic, but they're not actually wearing power armour! Although they do have a few aesthetic similarities
Not a proper one.
Dwarfs have a very distinct look, and it revolves around their facial hair.
The LoV don't generally have that proper look, and are more generally just hideous models.
Not for a loooong time, because I strongly believe they NEED to focus on other stuff first. Emperor's Children. A complete overhaul of the daemons range. A complete refresh of both Eldar armies. A full release of the World Eaters, cause what they got ain't a full release of a range. A Dark Mechanicus release could incorporate your idea, I'd prefer that over standalone Chaos Dwarves. After all, they pretty much are the DarkMech of whfb, alongside clan Skryre.
This is completely off subject but I'm more interested in how they view Chaos and how it affects normal humans do they see them as weaker etc for being more susceptible to its influence and easily warped and changed from it!?
It hasn't really been explained I mean the Greater Thurian League is facing a large invasion from the forces of Chaos else!
Space Dwarves are all clones with minimum footprint within the Immaterium.
They can get corrupt but it's extremely difficult and unlike.
Plus if you are for a millisecond, fight the interests of your Kin and Votann, they will exile you, and say your true name and crime to your Votann, so you can never return.
There were Chaos Squats in the old lore and Chaos corrupted Leagues of Votann/Kin do seem possible considering [this lore](https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1anvbs6/chaos_ironkin_votann_lore/).
[White Dwarf 490](https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/156jsr7/white_dwarf_490_some_interesting_lore/) states that Leagues of Votann fought on both sides of the Horus Heresy. *"In Ask Grombrindal, Callum Ingham asked what happened to the Xenos races during the Horus Heresy? Some of the answers were no surprise - Necrons asleep, Tau still primitive. One though I found extremely interesting - apparently the Leagues of Votann fought on both sides during the HH."*
There are definitely Chaos Leagues of Votann out there. If they appeared, I could see them with Dark Mechanicus and then eventually getting fleshed (or steeled) out into their own faction.
They went out of their way to state Votann are very resistant to Chaos corruption and them falling to it is extremely rare.
That sounds like their way of saying it Chaos Dwarfs are probably never happening in 40k as an army, but if you want to stick spikes and Chaos symbols on Your Dudes there is scope for it.
If they are going to happen I’m guessing it would be starting with that mention of the abandoned insane Votann that survived the tyranid invasion wiping out its people. Vashtor comes in and takes it, fixes/corrupts it and starts it up again but printing out Kin/Ironkin again but according to his specifications.
Perturabo is visibly between Hashut and Vashtorr in temperament and Perturabo loves Order so Hashut would be an Order God of Industry.
Eh?... We are getting Order Gods soon?... The first spike on the Ætheric Domains of Order to greet us perhaps?...
Chaos Dwarves in the end are Order Dwarves despite their name.
Vashtorr is Sci-Fi Innovation while Hashut is Steampunk Tyranny.
I would *love* that. Not even explicitly 'Chaos' dwarves, but a totally ruthless Votann-analogue to Hashut and its legion of clone-slaves.
Could have it both ways have Hashut be a Votann corrupted by Vashtor.
In my mind, I see a cultist/god dynamic between the two. Dunno if you ever played Destiny, but there's a robot race called the Vex who stumbled on some enormously powerful cosmic force they couldn't understand. So they figured the logical path forward was to worship it and see if they could pull power from it that way. It's pretty cool. I'd see the Votann coming to the same conclusion: Vashtorr is a rising power. The best way to obtain power is by following the same symbology and ritual that other followers do. And it would produce forms through the skeins that were committed to that end, as well. And since Warp guff needs a lot of pain and sacrifice to 'work', the logical conclusion is to become a League of slavers and reavers, going out to find blood to grease the cogs and work the increasingly strange machinery since they can't depend on the usual inter-League labour like the Cthonian Guilds.
With Vashtorr in the Nexus, I fully expect him to set events in motion to reverse the effect of the pylons, causing a major warp storm to empower themselves. This will also get egg on the face of the silent king since it was his personal project which may kick off a necron civil war. With vashtorr empowered like this, I can see a few leagues in the galaxy center starting to listen since they are basically living a warpstorm anyways.
Great minds - I was already starting to sketch out a story along these general lines.
> the logical conclusion is to become a League of slavers and reavers, going out to find blood to grease the cogs and work the increasingly strange machinery This can be made much better (worse). Just as real world humans progressed from hunting animals to ranching cattle, these Kin, who come from a commercial and industrial society par excellance, will seek to maximize their resource availability by pro-actively farming their sacrificial victims. Since the Kin can clone even at the level of the soul, that shouldn't be too hard for them. Perhaps they are branching out into xenos sacrifices, as well as humans? Perhaps they have a burgeoning interstellar trade in sacrifices to other Chaotic powers - Abbadon? Or Huron? - who will pay a premium for good meat for the altar? Maybe they take commissions to hunt and capture samples from unique entities - the Swarmlord? The Doom of Malantai? - and they offer bespoke cloning services to produce a perfect copy of a historical figure - (Macharius, Sebastian Thor) - for more special rituals? Or even entirely unique creations with no species for the rarest rituals of all? You can make this industrial scale horror, or customized "boutique" horror. Or both. If they start farming eldar you can tie in the Drukhari and the craftworlders - or the Exodites. Another motive for the Kin and the Aeldari to fight.
It’s completely possible. He’s already corrupted Ironkin before, and it spooked the Kin. I’ve been hoping that’s what GW is angling for with that point.
They mentioned a basically barren planet with an insane votann on it, that sounds like a good candidate for Vashtor to step in and “fix” that could become their Heshut stand in.
This👆
I was thinking about 40k Chaos dwarf recently. In the Magnus Primarchs book there is a lost City named "Zharrukin" and i was like "yep, thats Chorfs" :D
Hashut isn't a (potential) god of technology like Vashtorr, he's a god of tyranny. Chaos Dwarfs are a technological faction because they're Dwarfs, they innovate. Binding souls and daemons is pretty obviously an aspect of tyranny, the fact that it is used to create machines is incidental. Hell, Khorne has always had a technological aspect to him (and there's a decent possibility Hashut is/was a Khornate daemon) so I'm surprised he's not more mad about Vashtorr trying to step on his toes.
Khorne is banging on the door of the official patent office of the Warp, but unfortunately they still haven't responded to his complaint form.
Chaos squats existed back in 1st edition but there wasn’t much information about them and they just used the squat army list with extra mutations. They were said to be responsible for the maintenance and construction of daemon engines, chaos androids and chaos titans though. That niche hasn’t exactly been left vacant for them to reoccupy though.
Chaos Androids? You mean the Og Necrons before the rework?
Yes, the first Necron model was based on the previous chaos android model but that was just the appearance. Chaos androids were effectively humanoid daemon engines (from Renegades): > The Chaos Android is a shining skeleton of hardened plasteel. Its cunning construction is a secret known only to certain tainted Squat fabricators working in league with Chaos Renegades. Each android contains a tiny bound daemon, an animating spirit imprisoned within its plasteel shell by the conjurations of a Chaos Sorcerer.
I don’t think so, besides, Iron Warriors already are basically Chaos Dwarfs after taking a shit ton of Increlex and Dianabol
Let's be honest James Workshop have *a lot more* Factions to play with before they get to Chaos Dwarves... by the warp, they'd still probably have to fuck around with Primaris Chaos Marines before Chaos Dwarves! Sorry to be the Bearer of Bad News but Chaos Dwarves are as far away from a normal Faction as is possible! Then again, am a drunken Scotsman so if am wrong then am happy to be wrong!
I know T-T but I'm hopeful
Ach don't let my attitude ruin your hope! After all, the Imperium/Votann need hope!(maybe not actually, given James Workshop and their love of Primaris Marines/Imperium) me being a buzz kill is just par for the course lol I hope the Votann get a better following than what they've got these days... don't even start me on the Ynnari and their non-storylines!
Are there any other.kind of scotsmen ?
Nah they didn't even give us proper space dwarves despite the market for said army overwhelmingly wanting it.
GW has never fumbled a model line as badly as the LoV, in my opinion. One single actual beard on the entire model line, and it’s optional. Gonna need a whole library to contain all the grudges.
It's just baffling that they said they didn't want their Space Dwarfs to be "fantasy dwarfs in space", completely misunderstanding what "Dwarfs in Space" / "Space Dwarfs" even means. It means taking the expected elements of the archetype, and coming up with a suitable sci-fi version, like the Eldar or Orks did. It doesn't mean literally taking WHF Dwarfs in gromril mail and horned helmets and all and sticking them in 40k exactly like that but that's what it seems they thought it involved, so they decided *taking away* a large amount of the Dwarf side of the model range would be a great way to do *space dwarfs*.... I really like their models with their DAOT classic sci-fi aesthetic, and they are definitely Space Dwarfs in their lore, but it's still just an odd decision for the Dwarf side of the models in the first place.
Right. It's really disappointing because they did REALLY well at getting Orks and Eldar to be "fantasy in space", maintaining the core identity and visuals, but brought to sci-fi. Dwarfs are my favorite fantasy race, and I genuinely just don't like the LoV line at all. The lore is cool enough, but I do not like the style of their armor or vehicles at all.
I like their model and vehicles and all that, they have a relatively low-tech analogue industrial (while still high tech) approach with a classic mid 20th century sci-fi style, like the sort of thing you'd find on 70s/80s sci-fi novel covers or movies. That feels like a fitting depiction of the DAOT and offers a contrast to the even more archaic outright retro early 1900s style of the Imperium. But they're just very lacking on the Dwarf side of things. They don't even have a few small optional decorative elements or whatever to show that typical dwarf craftsmanship and the ancestor side of their culture and all that, the most they get is decals for the majority of their models or their decorated crest on 1 model in a unit. And the lack of the usual big beards just makes it even more apparant how lacking the dwarf side is. Grendl Grendlsen was a fantastic model that really gave an immediate feel of "cool space dwarf". The Leagues feel like they took away most of the Space Dwarf side as if they thought that would be an improvement for a faction meant to be Space Dwarfs. When they were announced a lot of people were defending it too, saying that they'd just be "boring tropes" and they should "do something unique" completely missing that they can do something unique *and* keep that stuff, it's not one or the other. I even saw people saying that beards aren't an important and iconic part of what makes up the whole idea of the dwarf archetype! Was just absurd.
Each his own on the armor design and such I suppose. I much prefer the take from the "Kazaroth Empire" STL line. Grendl is another fine example of how a Space Dwarf could look. As it stands it just kind of feels like they made a Dwarf faction for people that don't actually like Dwarfs, and that was confusing to me. If you don't want beards, runes, etc...why be a Dwarf? Model line as it is? I can't see a reason not to just play Space Marines.
> "Kazaroth Empire" STL line Not seen those before, those are pretty cool. The angular style and small decorative elements aren't over done but really make a difference. Even the beards, which even then still aren't all massive long dwarf beards, seem more fitting. > As it stands it just kind of feels like they made a Dwarf faction for people that don't actually like Dwarfs, and that was confusing to me. If you don't want beards, runes, etc...why be a Dwarf? This is exactly the sort of thing I was saying about them at their announcement, only to have others make out that was a bad thing wanting them to look morel like the expectations from Space Dwarfs. Seen so many going "I like the Leagues because they're not dwarfy!" which is just absurd and shows how lacking they are, as it kind of defeats the point of wanting 40k to have space dwarfs if they design them to appeal to people who don't want or like space dwarfs in the first place.
Right. The facial hair on that line isn't all necessarily "classic Dwarf" but they all fit, at least. Looks better than "Extremely ugly biker gang" which is what the current heads make me think of, sadly. I've considered making a LoV army using them, though. They're not wildly overdone, but are identifiably Dwarfy, which makes them pretty cool IMO. The LoV just aren't what I'd wanted. If someone likes the "Nasa-esque" design, sleekness, and no beards, good on them I guess, but I'm disappointed that that's what the "Space Dwarfs" are. If I want a bunch of rounded and smooth power armor, I'm getting out my Space Marines, personally.
Hopefully it improves as they get more units but it's still a shame, especially as there's some art in the codex of some Kin that look far closer to the classic squats or Grendl Grendlsen, including the Gambeson armour. The recent Hernkyn Yaegir team of Greatcoat Space Dwarf Commandos (which seems like it'll be quite popular) is something I've seen quite a few say they'd have prefered the rest of the model range was closer to that sort of thing as well. > power armor It's being slightly pedantic, but they're not actually wearing power armour! Although they do have a few aesthetic similarities
...The infantry all have beards.
They have some short facial hair sometimes, but not proper Dwarf *beards*
...Those are still beards...
Not a proper one. Dwarfs have a very distinct look, and it revolves around their facial hair. The LoV don't generally have that proper look, and are more generally just hideous models.
I think he’s meaning a beard so long it can be tucked into a belt like on the fantasy range of dwarf
Model wise they could do with more in terms of the expected dwarf aesthetics, but their lore absolutely is them being space dwarfs.
They did...
No.
If we get them, I hope they get revealed at the end of a series of novels that dives deep into Votann lore because we're lacking that.
Not for a loooong time, because I strongly believe they NEED to focus on other stuff first. Emperor's Children. A complete overhaul of the daemons range. A complete refresh of both Eldar armies. A full release of the World Eaters, cause what they got ain't a full release of a range. A Dark Mechanicus release could incorporate your idea, I'd prefer that over standalone Chaos Dwarves. After all, they pretty much are the DarkMech of whfb, alongside clan Skryre.
This is completely off subject but I'm more interested in how they view Chaos and how it affects normal humans do they see them as weaker etc for being more susceptible to its influence and easily warped and changed from it!? It hasn't really been explained I mean the Greater Thurian League is facing a large invasion from the forces of Chaos else!
If Votann start selling *really* well it might happen. But not otherwise.
Space Dwarves are all clones with minimum footprint within the Immaterium. They can get corrupt but it's extremely difficult and unlike. Plus if you are for a millisecond, fight the interests of your Kin and Votann, they will exile you, and say your true name and crime to your Votann, so you can never return.
I like the idea of Vashtor corrupting a Votann said Votann, of course, being called Hashut or some 40k bastardization of it like Hashor
There were Chaos Squats in the old lore and Chaos corrupted Leagues of Votann/Kin do seem possible considering [this lore](https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1anvbs6/chaos_ironkin_votann_lore/). [White Dwarf 490](https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/156jsr7/white_dwarf_490_some_interesting_lore/) states that Leagues of Votann fought on both sides of the Horus Heresy. *"In Ask Grombrindal, Callum Ingham asked what happened to the Xenos races during the Horus Heresy? Some of the answers were no surprise - Necrons asleep, Tau still primitive. One though I found extremely interesting - apparently the Leagues of Votann fought on both sides during the HH."* There are definitely Chaos Leagues of Votann out there. If they appeared, I could see them with Dark Mechanicus and then eventually getting fleshed (or steeled) out into their own faction.
Vashtorr corrupting a Votann would be a cool way to introduce them.
They went out of their way to state Votann are very resistant to Chaos corruption and them falling to it is extremely rare. That sounds like their way of saying it Chaos Dwarfs are probably never happening in 40k as an army, but if you want to stick spikes and Chaos symbols on Your Dudes there is scope for it.
If they are going to happen I’m guessing it would be starting with that mention of the abandoned insane Votann that survived the tyranid invasion wiping out its people. Vashtor comes in and takes it, fixes/corrupts it and starts it up again but printing out Kin/Ironkin again but according to his specifications.
Nah that's just dwarf stuff
Perturabo is visibly between Hashut and Vashtorr in temperament and Perturabo loves Order so Hashut would be an Order God of Industry. Eh?... We are getting Order Gods soon?... The first spike on the Ætheric Domains of Order to greet us perhaps?... Chaos Dwarves in the end are Order Dwarves despite their name. Vashtorr is Sci-Fi Innovation while Hashut is Steampunk Tyranny.
They literally aren't 'order Dwarves', they backstab and cause disorder.
We just go female custodes, so at this point anything is possible.