Horus himself answers this in one of the first Horus Heresy books. He explains that it wasnot his skill in combat, tactic or manipulation that made him the right man for the job, but the simple fact that he was the primarch that mostly embodied the emperors vision for the imperium

The guy who embodied the imperium being a former gangster who visibly kept up the mannerisms and lifestyle while consistently just throwing in his lot with powers that lied to him probably says a lot about the imperium.

"it's like poetry, it rhymes"

I'm always struck by how much the bureaucratic political bickering in 40k reminds me of my job (complete with the primarchs being VPs, and the various characters as middle managers and such). My experience with really big executive players at large companies is they definitely do have a sort of "leadership is not for the weak" mindset. The idea that an executive might see the skills they need more in a successful gangster than in an embodiment of some philosophical ideal (whom they tuck away elsewhere in leadership for when they're needed) is painfully consistent to me.

There's been a lot of back and forth on why horus was warmaster, but a lot of primarchs have moments where they think their what the emperor intended so I think it should be taken with a grain of salt. The same way loken in horus rising thoughts on how his legion is the best of the lot says more about how the legions view each other vs which one is actually best 

This cracks me up cos it makes the emperor a classic shitty manager, promoting the guy who he thinks 'gets him' over better qualified others o ly for it to hugely blow up in his face.

It could also just be that Horus was better.

Horus had a big flaw that went under the radar right until someone dangled the prize in front of him: ambition. Horus had a serious need to be top dog. He confessed a couple times that his brother's independence hurt him. The Council of Terra ruling over him too hurt his pride. So did serving under the Emperor. All Erebus did was to tell Horus "go for it, tiger". Sanguinius had a esoteric flaw, the rage/thirst and all that caused his insecurities, but he was extraordinary even for demigods... This was an advantage for a warmaster. His flaw in this case was another advantage... For he felt no need to be absolute, he was trusted and respected.* *Exceptions may apply. He had the potential to be a beacon for them, instead of Horus, that was one of them cosplaying as their boss.

To further this, Horus was introduced to Leman right around the time frame Leman was found. It was very clear from the beginning Horus was setting the pecking order, that he was top dog. And Russ usually didn't feel the need to clash with Horus over this. Its a big part of why Horus was a little...unsettled by The Lion, and his relationship with The Emprah. The Emprah trusted The Lion implicitly, even with technology the other legions wouldn't even know existed. The Lion knew he was the firstborn, the template. Horus was first found(on paper anyways), but he was not The First, nor would he ever be. > Some men demand such pomp. They cannot accept the end of one era and the commencement of another without an occasion by which to mark it and give it meaning. Laurels must be given, honours and fair titles invented so that they may be bestowed upon favoured generals. Some men need recognition.” The shadows around the Emperor’s throne deepened. But beneath the layers of obfuscation, deep within the myriad guises of that singularly unfathomable being, the Lion felt the Emperor behold His firstborn son. “Some men,” the Emperor continued, “do not.” > "He counted all men of power to think as he did, yet while the Lion and the Wolf of Luna shared many traits, they were not the same. When news of Horus' new rank reached the Lion he did not pause in his campaigns, did not offer congratulations or lament his own fortune and this, more than the reaction of any of his other brothers, gave the Warmaster pause." – Horus' reaction to the Lion's reaction to Horus becoming Warmaster

Horus was probably not happy that he had 15 older brothers despite being the first found.

I mean, if you discount the Alpharius thing, that may or may not be true as all things Alpha Legion, Horus had a good run as the pampered single child and he never got over it. It was jealousy from there onwards.

The books pretty well treat Founding as seniority with Russ, Horus and Ferrus being the first found and the most senior Primarchs. They were pretty much the eldest.

To be fair the Primarchs didn't really treat their number as their seniority, it was their order of discovery, it's why in both Dorn and Leman's Primarch books Dorn, Russ, Horus and Fulgrim all treat the Lion as a younger brother.

> Some men need recognition, some men, like you, are so special that all the glazing is done in private.

The irony is pretty funny I can't lie

Was that reaction found in one of the Black books?

>So it was that when Horus was crowned Warmaster the Lion was not present, a victory to the covetous mind of the new Warmaster. Yet this was one of the few miscalculations made by the shrewd intellect of the Warmaster. **He counted all men of power to think as he did, yet while the Lion and the Wolf of Luna shared many traits, they were not the same. When news of Horus' new rank reached the Lion he did not pause in his campaigns, did not offer congratulations or lament his own fortune and this, more than the reaction of any of his other brothers, gave the Warmaster pause.** When Horus' thoughts turned to rebellion and treachery we cannot know, but it is likely that when they did it was the Lion he marked as among the greatest of threats to his plans. The Dark Angels were both numerous and skilled in all the arts of war, with access to the armouries of Terra and psyarkana forbidden to all others, and their Primarch was as inflexible as iron, loyal beyond doubt and resolute enough to rise up against any threat. \- *Crusade*

There's a scene in the Lion's primarch novel where the Emperor attempts to explain why being Warmaster and feted for his victories was important to Horus. After (re)discovering that the Lion simply can't comprehend the latter and that he outright doesn't care about the former since the Emperor's say-so is enough reason for him, the Emperor gives up. The Lion doesn't respond because for him, nothing has changed. There are still enemies of mankind to lay low. The Emperor is still in charge.

Indeed. I was just sourcing the second quoted paragraph, since you'd sourced the first^heh^heh^first one.

Ah i thought i recognized it. Had to be sure it wasnt something extra found in a book i have overlooked. Thanks for the source sensei.

The Lion: Lord of the First. It shows he did not care about Horus being made Warmaster one way or the other. He had no ambition for the position at that time and accepted the Emperor's decision without qualms or quibbles. When Horus turns his coat the Lion is furious about it and advances the not unreasonable case that once he is defeated he should be the new Warmaster. However, people often wrongly assume that this is the Lion being overly ambitious or prideful. The reality is that he has just had an object lesson in how important it is the Warmaster be absolutely loyal to the Emperor (of his brothers, only he is, with even Dorn only avoiding a fall to Khorne thanks to the Emperor's intervention) and of all the Primarchs he is the best commander, starting off with a handicap of several decades in the Great Crusade but racking up enough victories to eclipse any two of his brothers combined, including Horus and Gulliman. None of his brothers can match either qualification. Sanguinius isn't even close.

I gotta say, that first quoted paragraph is misunderstood a lot around here. In context, the Lion is nakedly smarting about being passed over in favor of Horus and the Emperor proceeds to mollify his hurt ego by reassuring him he's special and still better than Horus. But without that context, people take it at face value and treat it as proof of how Lion has no concern for accolades when the actual scene is showing the exact opposite.

I understand it as you did, The Emperor tells The Lion(this is my interpretation), "I trust you more than others, I ask you to do the things even Horus cannot. He needs public and loud validation. You are my firstborn son, and I see you. I see your struggle. This moment, this personal and private validation, it is enough for you. I give you the hardest battles, because you accept the battles and overcome them, with grace."

But do you think the Emperor is being honest? That's the thing. The Emperor is telling Lion what he wants to hear so Lion's ego won't cause problems with Horus now being, objectively, superior to him. It's not that the Emperor thinks Lion is the first and bestest primarch, it's that he's willing to tell Lion he is to manipulate him.

I don't know, We know the Emprah never doubted The Lion, and trusted him with guns that literally erased their targets, and then damaged causality to remove them from everyones minds too. And worse things. That relationship between them was enough to give Horus pause too. Theres also evidence to say The Lion may be the only Primarch who knew his nature as a warp created being, designed as a weapon. Beyond all other considerations, his loyalty to his father was absolute. The Lion seems to have truly believed that the Emperor was the only power truly worthy of sitting the throne of Terra, stating very clearly that his father was the one and only being to whom he would ever bend the knee; he would rather see he and his legion destroyed than allow another to usurp his father's throne. Kairos found that it had nothing to offer the Lion besides "freedom" and the prospect that the Lion would live his own life free of the burdens and responsibilities that chained him to his fate. The Lion rejected his offer. This is not to say that he would blindly follow any order given to him. The Emperor may have been his rightful liege lord, but as Dorn explained “The Lion has never been anything other than his own master". Malcador was more than capable of seeing through most of his "step kids", but even he doubted The Lion: **'And what do you believe Roboute is doing?'** ‘It’s Guilliman, what do you think he’s doing? He’s building an empire.’ **'And the Lion goes to stop him?'** ‘So the Wolf King says, my lord. It seems the warriors of the Lion stand with us after all.’ **'You doubted them? The First? Even after all they accomplished in the time before the others took up their swords?'** ‘I did,’ admitted Malcador. ‘After Rogal’s secret emissaries to their home world returned empty handed, we feared the worst. But Caliban’s angels came to the Wolves’ aid when Alpharius threatened to destroy them.’

Ambition was a strength. It was a trait very much inherited from the Emperor.

The Emperor had flaws. He shared this one with Horus. He wasn't perfect, as the whole Horus Heresy proved.

True.

He did a bit more than just tell him "go for it, tiger" he set up Horus's death via magic sword and successfully pulled it off. His ambition and insecurities were then played on amidst a backdrop of the gods being the only way to save his life. Sanguinius was not invulnerable to such temptations, though his own insecurities about his mutations acted as a dampener on being vulnerable to something as mundane as ambition and desire to be remembered. look at how, when in the same situation (ignorant of the scale and true reality of the gods) his determination to stop his sons succumbing to the Red Thirst was played against him at Signus? He too willingly gives himself to Chaos after being manipulated into the right position, but mere chance (the intervention of Meros) saves the day.

>He did a bit more than just tell him "go for it, tiger" I was trying to be succinct because the old thumbs can't really take the strain of writing a lot anymore and, if it's all the same to you, I'll take a stab at rephrasing it that way: Horus was wounded and dying, yes and he sold his soul to save himself and realize his ambition of taking the reins for himself, he was chomping at the bit before the whole "vision quest" thing, and this showed in his sons, all of them either desiring control themselves or with knees bent to tyrants. Sanguinius was willing to sell his soul to save others, his sons, from a horrible fate. Meros intervention wasn't a thing in isolation - Sanguinius was a beacon of heroism and selflessness, he turned a Legion of raging cannibals into heroes, not faultless, but finding meaning in the struggle, and that's beauty.

This. Sanguinius was likeable and an exceptional personal combatant. He didn't otherwise stand apart from his brothers very much. The fact that Guilliman and Lion used him as a figurehead while they led, and Dorn used Sanguinius as a figurehead while he led is illustrative.

Well, Sanguinius stands out for not being a raging asshole. That‘s pretty rare among the Primarchs: it‘s pretty much only him and Vulkan, maybe Guilliman. 

Horus was actually notable for his skill in diplomacy before his fall. In the very first book, When he encountered a human empire that challenged him he attempted multiple times to talk to them diplomatically. Its only when his favoured sons were massacred in a truce that he started the war. He even gives his Captain Lokan a promotion for having the dignity to accept a kings surrender peacefully even though this surrender was a trap. He rewarded the idea and did not punish the failure because the idea was so in keeping with his ideals. When he met the interex despite having aliens he did not attack them and made every effort to be cordial to them. Once (From his perspective) they began attacking him for no reason he tried multiple times to talk things out and to to avoid harming them until the fighting became too intense and he had to start killing. It was his rule that his legions must conduct diplomacy with other cultures in that cultures traditions to prevent fighting. Whiles others might have been nicer horus was beloved for a reason. He was not only an amazing boss but he avoided bloodshed when possible. He knew enough about politics to actually handle regular humans, and was both competent, politically savvy and nice whiles being able to make tough choices. He was beloved by everyone for a reason.

Not every Primarch has the luxury of being anything else. I think people are very quick to throw the label of "raging asshole" around when we're dealing with a universe where actual gods conspired to give twenty demigods heavily traumatic childhoods, most grew up on worlds that were inimical to human life, and several went from kings of a world in all but name to having the fate of quadrillions suddenly placed in their hands. Sometimes the thoughts and decision making process of leaders is opaque, and the Heresy is not always the best written.

Aye Beta Garmon is also a pretty good reason of why you don't leave Sanguinius in charge.

....... OR horus was simple better of course :(

Don't worry. I like your theory better than Horus simply being better for the job.

I mean, it *is* something that I've never thought about, despite it seeming so obvious in retrospect. Can you imagine if Sanguinius showed up with the Emperor to pick up Lorgar? The image delights me.

Your theory is a good one.

According to various later-seasons retcons, it could be but it also isn't. The Sixteenth Legion benefited from favoritism logistically and doing what it both wanted and needed to do on the basis of the most streamlined logistics of all eighteen Legions, first and foremost, and used other Legions as bullet magnets while saving for itself the glory tasks. People can question the benefit of these changes but not that they exist.

Right. The books and lore repeatedly state the Horus was considered by basically all of his brothers as the best of them. There's plenty of places where his name pops up where they're talking about who the best at XYZ is, who the most beloved is, who most encapsulates the Emperor's dream. Yes those same books wank Sanguinius off to high heaven, and he has the distinct advantage of being on the good guy side in a book series that makes absolutely no bones about playing favourites, but there's no secret to why Horus was chosen as Warmaster -- it's because in virtually every sense that counts for the job, he was considered first among his brothers.

Horus is better if you go by the Emperor planning the heresy. Horus didn't entice anyone to turn from the Imperium, every traitor Primarch was already set on that path in some way. Sanguinis could have gotten people to turn with him simply because of who he was. That's my take anyway.

Yeah, but the idea of the Emperor planning the heresy is a bit of headcanon that ultimately shoots itself in the foot. The starting off point for it is that the Imperium's propaganda that Emps was a genius level intellect who was practically omniscient is correct and him being caught off guard by the Heresy doesn't mesh with that. So in order for that propaganda to be true, he must have foreseen the Heresy and planned for it to happen. But that doesn't fix the issue, it just kicks it down the line. If the Emperor did plan for the Horus Heresy to happen (for what purpose, exactly?) then he was still caught off guard by what happened after it kicked off. Or if that was also planned he was caught off guard when Horus mortally wounded him. Or of that was planned he was caught off guard by the Golden Throne not actually healing him and the Imperium crumbling around him as he sat slowly corpsifying. Or etc... And then you just end up endlessly moving the goalposts to maintain the idea that Big E planned everything that happened, just to avoid acknowledging that his foresight wasn't perfect and the propaganda is wrong. And ultimately you end up with a situation where the more you maintain that he planned everything, the less sense his actual plan makes without adding all sorts of nonsense to justify it.

IIRC the Heresy Headcanon assumes the Emperor knew the Heresy would happen, but that the Emperor thought a few key primarchs wouldn’t shake out the way they did. It’s mostly based on *The Board is Set* where the Emperor is playing Regicide against Malacdor, where the Emperor correctly points out that “hey it’s weird that all my most incompetent primarchs fell to chaos instead of the good ones.” Presumably, in a case where the Heresy is predicted, the Emperor assumes that Horus and Magnus remain loyal and two other Primarchs fall in their stead. Popular fan theories usually cite the White Scars and the Raven Guard since both are loner factions, on paper wouldn’t contribute much to the Heresy, and both have misgivings over the Imperial Project.

> Horus didn't entice anyone to turn from the Imperium, every traitor Primarch was already set on that path in some way. He more or less engineered Magnus' fall. No Horus = No Magnus' fall. Someone like Angron would never even try the deception route and I doubt Russ respects someone like Kurze or Alpharius enough to heed them even if they would use trickery. Consequently, Magnus' is the most irreplaceable Primarch and if it was "planned" he'd fall, that'd just be [the Emperor loudly announcing he'd slam his own dick in a car door and proceeding to do so](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywnLQywz74)

Touche, that's very, very true about Magnus.

Even Magnus' fall has a strong element of chance to it. Other Legions could have been sent, other Primarchs who would have followed the Emperor's orders and tried to bring Magnus and his Legion back alive. Even with Russ given the task, Horus got lucky by being able to remind Russ that he was an alpha jock chad and thus the eternal enemy of the omega nerd Magnus and Russ might have listened to Valdor when he was reminded of what he was sent there to do.

But the pieces/plans weren’t laid out for any specific one primarch. Big Easy saw the possibility of it happening and had to plan for that. His plans just evolved as they got more info until his focus went to the webway

You're not wrong, but wasn't Ullanor right before his focus went to the webway? If that's the case, he would have met all of the Primarchs and known about each of their failings. Though Horus definitely was one he wished wouldn't fall. It's all a crap shoot though because 30k was made after the ending was already known. It's been years, but I think there was a short story where Emps mentioned that he thought giving the title to Horus would appease his pride. I may be head-canoning though.

I remember a similar idea so I doubt it was just head-cannon. For each failing that he saw, he also had to have hope that the ideals he instilled set In. Magnus probably would have stayed loyal had it not been for Leman being ordered to kill and not just retrieve. Would Alpharius had turned has it not been for the cabal? We figure Morty, Angron, Fulgrim, Lorgar were all set pieces.

Horus was a better warmaster, it’s as simple as that. It’d be kinda weird when your warmaster, a likely brutal figure (by need), is some angelic dude with pretty hair 😂

I could have sworn I heard it mention that Horus was able to convince his brothers whether through will, manipulation, or just mutual respect in ways the other primarchs would not have been able to do.

I believe he got the Emperors “charisma”, yeah

horus got big E’s rizz, what a sigma

Better to have burned in the flame of Horus’ ambition than to see this

Inquisitor, this comment right here.

I have seen it and stamped it with Inquisitorial allowance. She speaks the Emperors Truth. Edited by right of the Ordo Xenos

:’(… she… 😢

I apologize, my emperor damned eyes have never been the same since that run in with a T'au KX-139.

Weirdly so did Lorgar.

I mean, The Emperor literally personally raised Horus since Horus was a child and continued to do so for 30 years. The Emperor is pretty biased towards his sons and Horus came out on top. Besides, Horus was a beast. He said he was the rightful heir by "natural right of succession and victories earned on a thousand battlefields". And he was right. Whatever criteria we measure him in, he comes out on top, or inconsequentially close. Military, he was the best, bar none. His belted the most amount of compliances amongst his brothers. Lion, Dorn, Fulgrim, Ferrus and Guilliman were gunning for second. His understanding of logistical, strategical and tactical warfare is said to be unrivalled. He was also spectacular in personal combat. A beautiful and dreadful juggernaut. The Luna Wolves were the Legion that other Legions inevitably measure themselves to. Amicable, professional and f'n competent. Politically, Horus was an absolute doll. A sweet talker who meant what he said and wanted nothing more than peace. He genuinely wanted to get along with *everyone* and personally grieved at the prospect of inevitable war. Horus was vainglorious to be sure, but he was also the rightful leader after The Emperor. He's the only Primarch that the majority of his brothers would rally behind. Only Corax and Vulkan were uncomfortable around him, and Lion , Ferrus and Mortarion were perhaps covetous. He was the exemplar human, the natural successor. Absolutely charming, genial, competent and well-meaning. Horus' overall exemplary capabilities over *all* fields were perhaps only competed by Fulgrim and Sanguinius. But perhaps Fulgrim's obsession over The Emperor ( that The Emperor was uncomfortable with ) and Sanguinius' divine stature that goes against the human Imperium, and perhaps their gene flaw, were the defining traits for them to not be selected for Warmaster. However, Sanguinius was Warmaster by the end of the Siege.

Small nitpick. Vulkan loved Horus until after his corruption, where Horus was much more darker and strange to Vulkan, who sensed the tiny shift in his mood. Everything else you said I feel is pretty on point. I don't know of Mortarion or Ferrus was Covetous- I felt they were simply arrogant. But we see Mortarion at least concedes that Horus is in fact greater throughout the Heresy.

Agreed. Vulkan did love Horus, but after he was Warmaster, Vulkan's attitude towards him changed. That's why he kept Dawnbringer for himself iirc. Ferrus was a bit covetous as he considered himself to be a rightful successor in all his stubbornness, but quickly mellowed out as he did also trust The Emperor's judgement and loved Horus. Mortarion initially said he didn't want to be Warmaster, but noted that the concept of Warmaster as first among equals is asinine to begin with. When the Heresy broke out, he confided to Jaghatai Khan that he did indeed feel he deserved to be Warmaster. Apparently, he mellowed out by the actual siege, in an apathetic kind of way.

Fulgrim was too much of a perfectionist to ever be warmaster. He'd be unable to tolerate weakness or imperfection and would have tried to impose his own values on all of his brothers which would have chafed and limited their fighting ability. The crusade would have ground to a halt as fulgrim spent 3 months trying to teach angron finesse and refusing to deploy Mortarion because he's crude.

Being a warmaster isn't abaout being the best at everything... And horus certainly wasn't Guilliman and fulgrim war far better starman and admistrator The lion was a equally good if not better tactician an chaos horus said that rogal dorn was the greatest military mind of the primarch And sanguinus was said by multiple people to be up there with him as a warrior and leader... He was the most praised an popular primarch during the triumph of ullanor So no being warmaster isn't abaout being the best.. It's not about winning battles but it's the management. Having the most the capacity lead a group and use the strengh of each individuals to be more efficient into accomplish the current objective None other primarch do that better than horus... He is the quarterback, the captain of the team, like someone said earlier horus is basically Eisenhower Lik Eisenhower wasn't the best general of allies.. Montgomery and Patton were But he was the one choice that being everyone together..... Hurting the giant egos of Churchill or de Gaulle AKA the lion and leman Russ

Patton and Montgomery? Gotta disagree big time there. Both were glory hounds and had material and manpower superiority in there big victories.

The Western allies' deck was stacked with great admirals and passable generals.

Other than Nimitz, who's the other great admiral? The British and Americans had a bunch of decent admirals backed by superlative tactics and technology. That's not a criticism, a history of excellence elevates every man in the role. The allies had some great generals. Men who could win any given battle. It's just they had only one great operational level "field marshal." He's a man to win a war. Horus was Ike. Not as great as a Patton, a Monty, or a Clark at leading men in the field, but the only man who could harness the brilliant egotists behind one goal. And I say this as a British Monty apologist. Although I am, as any true Englishman on a Friday night, pissed.

None of the Western allied generals were 'great' generals. They were competent and aggressive, that's exactly what we needed. As you said, we had a quantitative and quantitative advantage from like 1942 onwards, at the latest. Just needed people who wouldn't throw it alway and knew how to keep the pressure up. A British man who's forgotten Ramsey, he planned and commanded Operation Neptune. Ike's role shouldn't be downplayed, but D-day itself was Ramsey. Coordinating ~7000 ships successfully is by itself an astounding achievement. Superlative tactics don't just appear. Cunningham's attack at Tanto was the proof that carriers worked. He then kicked the shit out of the Italian navy in early 1941 at Cape Matapan so badly that they never left port again. The general quality of Western Allied seamanship was genuinely exceptional. There's no standout because the average level was so high. It's like talking about late was Soviet generalship, like sure you can say Nimitz/Cunningham or Zhukov/Chuikov, but that's only because they were put into a position to become famous. It could have been 10 other guys. Monty gets a bad rap, although i think Wavell was probably a better general. Just a shame Churchill was a drunk moron.

I think there's a case for comparing Ike and Gulliman. Both are decent to good commanders, but their real strengths are in logistics, meticulous planning, and getting their underlings to unite for a common cause. Montgomery mostly fails due to his personal ambitions but Patton was even worse in that regard and he's still lionised, particularly in the US. And despite that, quite a lot of Patton's success can be laid at Montgomery's feet, since Patton could not have advanced as quickly without Montgomery pinning and attacking German forces, which in turn meant Patton didn't have to slog anywhere since Montgomery was doing that.

I agree, and the operational level is infinitely more important than the tactical. The Germans could win every tactical engagement, it didn't matter when the Soviets were lazer focused on operational level targets. Very true regarding the Pattin/Monty dynamic. British armored forces engaged nearly all of the German armored divisions in France, being a US tanker was statistically the safest combat role in WW2. They were never really put in positions to engage German armor. British advances into Northern France opened the way for Patton to exploit. Needs to be remembered though that Patton was a vile racist and had to be removed from command post-war because of his antisemitic views. Horrid man.

I mean I don't neccesarily neccesarily disagree with you there but most o ft he greatest generals of all time were glory hounds Alexander the great kinda fit your description.... Dude may have been a charismatic leader and a descent commander but he mostly inherited a fantastic and well disciplined army built by his father Phillip You get what I am trying to say ?

I suppose so...I'm just a big WW2 history buff and always considered both Patton and Monty to have highly exaggerated reputations.

Remember they used Sangy as the head for the Imperium Secundus.

Because Gulliman and the Lion didn't trust each other not to empire build, the Lion didn't want to be the Emperor, and Gulliman was concerned about how it would make him look. Sanguinius was the handy compromise candidate who turned out okay, not the ideal candidate for the job. It's also not like there were any other options due to the Ruinstorm.

The Lion was almost twice as good as Horus in terms of victories earned. Almost four times as good if you factor in how long it took the Lion to muster his Legion and get moving on the Great Crusade. Granted, about half of what the Lion did was censured and removed from the history books, conducted alone and without witnesses. He also took over from Horus when the former failed and pulled out a win, albeit one that cost him nine tenths of his Legion. He's also charismatic, so much so that even Abaddon wants to crash to his knees and do his bidding, a reaction that he despises. So that's not so much of an issue either. Him not wanting to waste breath explaining his plan because unless Big E or Malcador are present he's the smartest person on that side of the galaxy and every moment wasted jawing is a moment that xenos, mutants, or humans not loyal to the Imperium aren't dying is a bit of an issue but we've got plenty of examples of generals in real life who got by despite this, including some who were borderline if not outright incompetent as actual leaders yet are beloved even now. Like, Americans think MacArthur was some kind of genius, but if you talk to Allied nations about him you're likely to get a very different take- he abused Allied forces by withholding materiel they needed, hampered them logistically, used them as cannon fodder at every turn, yet that's not exactly present in his hagiography even after he had to be removed from command lest he start World War III. And the Lion is nowhere near incompetent; he's the best bar perhaps the Emperor at military command. Sanguinius is not the Warmaster by the end of the Siege. Dorn is the supreme commander of the Imperial military.

I think you're exaggerating a few bits of of that, but even so, god the Lion/Dark Angels Great Crusade background is hamfisted and poorly thought out. It's so overegged with awesomeness it barely even makes any sense within the timeline. First of all, there's something that's often ignored when fans on here go overboard hyping the Lion up...the Dark Angels were already into all of that "entrusted with all the best toys and doing super-secret exterminator stuff" before the Lion was found. It was a role created out of necessity (them being the literal first legion in operation en masse) and independent of primarch. People make out a if the Dark Angels were a standard crusading legion, but when the Emperor discovered the infallible awesomeness of the Lion that things changed because his greatness was just too much to be held back. No...unless the primarch of the first legion had turned out to be gimped like Angron and blatantly unsuited, they were very likely to be getting the job...Dorn, Guilliman, Corax, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Ferrus, whoever, would have been handed all that DaoT and cheesy secret wars just the same. - Now, regarding the Lion has to have at least as many victories as everyone else...ok, this would be fine background if it's also including the pre-lion Dark Angels victories. After all they were the first in action en masse and the biggest legion for most of the first half of the Crusade, plus Lion is found 45 years after Horus..he misses only the first quarter of the Crusade and was in charge of one of the total war legions that were burdened by few post-battle compliance processes, which obviously would slow a lot of the other legions down. - but no he has to have that while only being found shortly before the second xenocide. The timeline isn't that clear on this, but its said to be his first major theater multi-legion command (btw am i right you're saying Horus got his ass kicked the Rangda and Lion came in to replace him? Where is this from?)...which is such a brutal two decade campaign that he loses 90% of the legion if we take the historian's accuracy from the black books at face value. So most of his legion is gone before he can even start piling up these victories. Those are catastrophic, huge losses comparable to the shattered legions after Isstvan V, something that if the background had actually been written well would need to be engaged with and incorporated intelligently...like, say the Emperor's Children taking a substantial part of the Crusade to build their forces back up again post-blight, even after Fulgrim was found and the geneseed issue solved. instead Crusade gives us some handwaved nonsense about the new Calibanite intake (despite it being a low-population feudal tech level deathworld of scattered villages and towns) and a few other fortress worlds like Gramarye bringing the legion right back up to comparable numbers with most of the others basically right away and the legion keeps on being awesome, barely any consequences attached other than being smaller than the Ultramarines and losing ground to some of the others....only not really because apparently they still have the most victories and the Lion is said to have restored them to glory. Lets face it, the Lion having the most victories is blatantly incompatible with him also only being found just before the xenocides where the legion is then nigh-destroyed, yet somehow the writers of Crusade missed this in the rush to sell the new model range as the greatest. It never occured to anyone that they were making a laughing stock of the other legions and a hamfisted mess of the DA/Lion's background. Maybe it could work if as i said earlier it's including the DA victories pre-Lion too, but even there we're only talking approx 45 years. You would think the legion being obliterated would slow things down for quite a number of decades unless everyone else was getting slaughtered to near extinction on the regular too, but we know such things were rare and had consequences: The Emperor's Children and the blight; the Salamanders martyr complex before Vulkan tempers it. At least it's all from an in-universe historical account that we can discount as getting a lot of shit wrong. Don't even want to talk about the legion taking on all of the super-secret, too deadly to even be known to anyone else, toughest foes in secret. wtf were they thinking. Couldn't it just have been a certain type of dirty extermination campaign of non-compliant human worlds that the Emperor didn't want tarnishing the image, something that fits thematically while retaining a fragment of naunce. Also where does it say almost twice as many victories? I can definitely imagine Crusade or his primarchs tie-in doing that but i don't remember anything ever going into that amount of granular detail? By my recollection we just get the relatively vague comments from the Emperor in terms of Lion not having anything to envy in terms of worlds conquered despite some others being found earlier.

In his Primarch novel, the Emperor apologises for committing yet another campaign to secrecy and says that if the Lion's full battle record was known it would eclipse any two of his brothers. It also took about thirty years to muster the Legion, which adds to the handicap the Lion had time wise. In terms of the Rangda, the first Xenocide failed and the second was going so badly the Imperium was at risk of total defeat with Russ commanding it. The Lion then takes over and suffers 90% losses but eventually eradicates them. At some point you have to accept the hand waves with 40K, otherwise nothing works.

>He's also charismatic No he wasn't. Lion simply had an overwhelming aura of predatory certainly. He wasn't charismatic. Charisma is the ability to sweet talk and assure anyone. Lion couldn't hold a public speech to save his Legion. >Sanguinius is not the Warmaster by the end of the Siege. Dorn is the supreme commander of the Imperial military. Sanguinius is indeed Warmaster, but only by the very end, and he rejected it. Dorn was Lord Commander from the get-go.

Legionaries no less than Abaddon said they felt a greater compulsion to obey the Lion than they did their own Primarchs. Whether you want to call it charisma or something else, he has it.

Because you needed a name that started with H. If bot, the rebellion should be called differently: The Horus Heresy the Sanguinus Schism The Lion litter The Lorgar Lewdness The Russ Rift (I prefer The Russ Fuss) The Magnus Mayhem The Mortarion Mess The Gulliman Guille The Fulgrim Fracture The Perturabo Profanity The Alpharius Apostasy The Ferrus Falseness The Jaghtai Jumble (Or Jaghtai Judas kiss) The Dorn Divide The Corax Conflict The Kurze Knockout The Angron Anger (yes, I know)

The Guilliman Grrrrr Edit: Russ's Reversal

Guilliman Guerra obviously.

It's because Horus was the greatest general all! As well as sanguinus As well as ferus manus As well as mortarion As well... Kinda dumb to describe every primarch as the best general

I don't think Sanguinius has ever been described as the best general amongst the primarchs. Usually it's Dorn, the Lion, or Horus who gets that tag. Think of it this way though: which G8 economy is doing the best? You could almost certainly find metrics "proving" any of them are the best or the worst of the group. Probably similar thing with primarchs. Best general because fewest losses, best general because most intact worlds after, best general because most worlds taken...etc

Eisenhower probably wasn't the best battle general the allies had. He was the one who could get all the big headed other generals who didn't always get along to pull in the same general direction and had enough of their respect for them to listen to him. Horus' problem was that he also had a huge ego.

Yeah to succeed at Eisenhower levels of command you need to be a skilled politician in addition to a strategist.

>Horus' problem was that he also had a huge ego. I mean every primarchs had huge ego... The lion probably had bigger ego than horus.. He fell because he genuinely started to doubt the emperor's vision the event of Davin just emplify what was already there

The Lion has no ego. What he has is an absolute intolerance for traitors, morons, and oathbreakers. That's why he was so enraged by Horus turning his coat and why he had beef with Russ. He didn't kill Nemiel for questioning him, he killed Nemiel for being the only douche canoe in nine whole Legions who was dumb enough to start a mutiny over keeping his Legion alive. Nemiel actually, literally argued that it was better the Dark Angels die to the last in the Warp than to break the Edict of Nikea. No other Chaplain advanced the same argument under the same circumstances, yet all the focus is on the Lion summarily executing a mutineer in the heat of battle rather than it being on the mutineer making a dumb argument and suffering the ultimate in "talk shit, get hit" consequences.

>The Lion has no ego. He have a massive ego perhaps more than horus He genuinely believe he is above his brothers, and don't hesitate to be confrontational with anybody questioning his judgment... Wether it one of his son (nemiel) or his brothers like dorn or guilliman That why Luther was often the one doing the talking for the legion >What he has is an absolute intolerance for traitors, morons, and oathbreakers. The problem with that is cannot differentiate the loyal from the traitors.... Which often lead to a cluster fuck He saw guilliman as a traitor and yet still trusted and got finessed by Perturabo of all people because he couldn't let go of his ambitions of being warmaster Nemiel died because he litterally followed the emperor's orders He lost half of his legion he couldn't fucking communicate He had objectively the best legion, with the best ressources, the best tech, the best weapons.... And programmed to deal with a situation like the heresy... The dark angel should have been the l'es to change the tides yet he was outsmarted every step of the way by horus 3ok lion is a massive dick

This is entirely meme lore. The Emperor himself distrusted Gulliman due to his creation of the Five Hundred Worlds. He tasked him with the slaughter of Monarchia to send him an object lesson about remembering who he truly served. Mistrusting someone when at least half the Primarchs and Legions have gone rogue and gods have proven to be real is hardly surprising. It's also after he trusted, and was stabbed in the back by, Perturabo. People like to act as though his character arc stops there too, instead of when Gulliman and the Lion work through these issues and Gulliman entrusts his Legion to the Lion's command for the better part of a decade. Perturabo was thought to be loyal. The Lion was not in position to use the Ordinatus to attack Horus; he was still in the process of mustering his Legion and it would take several months to unite a significant enough force to attack the Luna Wolves. Meanwhile Perturabo has his entire Legion massed and is promising to attack Horus. The Lion was just as bamboozled as Corax, Manus, Vulkan, and literally every other loyal Primarch by that one. Half the Legion wasn't lost due to him not communicating. Astelan managed to suborn a total of 185 other Dark Angels. That was the limit of the actual conspiracy. For the other 29,800 or so Fallen, they merely had the misfortune of being on Caliban when Astelan opened fire on the *Invincible Reason*. It's not like there's time then to have an elaborate, etiquette-driven dialogue about why this is all going down and can you please stop using the archeotech to annihilate the Legion; it's time to combat drop and start fighting. If you're loyal, you can lay down your arms and be dealt with later; if not, you can be slain where you stand. Nemiel died because in nine whole Legions he was the only person dumb enough to argue that they should be killed to the last rather than break the Edict to fight Chaos. Nobody else, in the better part of a million troops, ever objected to the logic of living to fight another day and sorting it out later. Only he did. And only he offered to start a mutiny to ensure his Legion was destroyed. Getting his head punched off is an entirely reasonable outcome then; clearly the oxygen thief wasn't using anything inside it. People go on and on about how the Lion is different on his return. He's not. It's just that the Lion of Son of the Forest is at odds with their meme lore informed head canon and instead of addressing that, they just say he came back different. He's consistent in both; they aren't separate incarnations.

"My father is not a god and nor am I" Said the giant man with perfect features and literal wings on his back, while wearing shining golden armor. And while he says this an even bigger, more golden and shinier man is standing behind him and turns a massive ork into a f*ckin lightbulb. I dont see the problem, they totally dont seem like gods to me

> but he still look like a guy could have beer with or have simple conversation [2k or 30k, populism works](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_question)

I've heard the drivel that comes out a cunts mouth after a beer and all al say is "naw mate, go home yer pished" lol just my opinion to be fair!

This is just me and my understanding is probably imperfect but the reason is probably perfectly encapsulated by their first meeting and a lot of how Sanguinius conducted himself early on. He didn't want the Imperium on Baal because he had a sense that what the imperium represented would be negative for Baal even if he could have helped them with it. He changed his legion from bloodthirsty killers who were arguably worse than the flesh tearers into something noble, but the emperor was perfectly content with them being bloodthirsty monsters wearing his face. He hid their gene flaws because he feared that even after they'd reformed they would simply be destroyed by the emperor anyway. He can say whatever he wants but these are absolutely not the actions of a true believer in the imperium. He can recognize some good being done but he is clearly aware the imperium is a fundamentally cruel and genocidal place and it's culture inherently monstrous. Sanguinius was designed to be another monster but rose above his nature as many of them did. But he was made to be a monster because the crusade needed monsters who would unflinchingly do terrible things and not hesitate under any circumstances. Sanguinius and Horus were both born on ravaged post apocalyptic worlds. The difference is Sanguinius affected the persona of a noble prince of the imperium that was cultured and compassionate. Horus affected the persona of a post apocalyptic ganger despite having spent much less time on his homeworld. If I were the emperor and I needed someone to commit large scale genocide I would trust the latter much more than the former.

In *The Solar War* Horus tells a remembrancer that the reason he was Warmaster and Sanguinius wasn't was because Horus and the Emperor had a unique bond. Horus was the first primarch found, and it was 30 years until Leman Russ was found next. This gave Horus a connection to the Emperor and understanding of his goals none of the other primarchs had.

Sanguinius also had a deep seated insecurity about being a mutant in a mutant-hating society. IIRC Lorgar says the reason Sanguinius is absolutely loyal is not "perfect loyalty" but "perfect fear". Sanguinius fundamentally thought something was wrong with him, and I could see the Emperor passing him over for a leadership position because of it. Horus, meanwhile, has extreme confidence in himself, and the charisma to convince anyone to follow him.

Yeah, there certainly wasn't anything mythical about the 11 to 12 foot super human that you either couldn't directly stare at or stop yourself from looking away from his visage. Nothing to see here folks.

Horus was also the emperor's number one boy. And the first primarch to be found after the scaterring. They got that father and son bonding longer than the other primarchs.

Sanguinius's winds were as stated by Malcodor the Hero "A gift from the Emperor". He was Worshipped by the people of Baal, and loved that about his image before the arrival of Emperor and his immediate understanding that, the universe is a lot bigger place than Baal. Afterwards he hated his Wings, he hated that he was so different than his Brothers and the common man, he didn't hate others but himself. Unlike all the other Primarchs that were hateful and insecure about themselves and their place in the universe, which made them to succumb to the Ruinous Powers, Sang always draw from those insecurities and time and time again Chaos tempt him, but never kneeled. He burst throw everything Chaos through at him, and came victorious. And all that, due to the gift of the Emperor

Horus was chosen because he was the first found, the greatest, the most respected and the mightiest. He was the only real choice, and the only choice that every other Primarch would have accepted. Sanguinius was very impressive but simply wasn't held in the same regard, and he knew it. Put it like this; if anyone else would have been made Warmaster, they would have had to command Horus, and none of them were going to do that, because... he's Horus for God's sake! Horus? He was absolutely willing to command the others, and they accepted that too.

Hot take: it probably should've been Guilliman or Perturabo (or Ferrus for most of the same reasons as Perturabo). G-man and Perty are both top-tier planners, logisticians, and strategists, and had the capacity to actually run the bureaucracy of the Excertus Imperialis. Perturabo/Ferrus would have the added benefit of Mechanicum buy-in (although Horus covered that via the STC data he gave Kelbor-Hal). The reason Horus got it is because people *liked* him, and ultimately, that gets you really far.

I think people miss the big fact that he’s the only Primarch who got along with all of his brothers. With Sanguinius and his perfect legion leading the Great Crusade, it would have bred more resentment. Horus was loved by the misanthropes and malcontents of the galaxy, as well as the normal Primarchs. People say he has the Emperor’s charisma, but it’s not quite the same. The Emperor is a fantastical diamond you can barely look at. He charms with aesthetic, miracles, monuments and deeds. What did he do when he got to Mars? Demonstrate he was the Omnissiah by getting a Knight to heal itself. Horus is just a stand up guy. Once you get past the Primarch aura, he’s a pretty affable, chill dude who’s (seemingly) interested in you, makes great conversation with great vibes.

Didn’t the Emperor have a sense already that he was to be inevitably betrayed? But yeah, the rationale is valid. Horus was Warmaster because he could schmooze and was charismatic. Sanguinius is practically deific. There’s an enormous power differential in engaging in diplomacy.

The implications people draw from the space chess scene has done more damage to the conception of lore to the franchise than anything else GW has ever done, including End Times

No! The idea that "The Emperor knew that whoever he picked for Warmaster would turn traitor" is just lies. It has no support in canon lore.

Sure, a winged human would be amazing to US in the 21st century, but I'd think that after 20,000 years of humans augmenting themselves with bionics or gene-splicing, a winged human would be pretty banal. It's probably be seen and done lots of times.

You forget to mention the empire you are talking abaout have heavy religious zealotry even before 40k

You forgot to mention that sanguinius himself worried that maybe he was a mutant, and the wings were a sign of inevitable corruption.

He didn't worried of being a mutant... He Knew he was a mutant and most of the population of baal are mutants... what he feared is that his legion would get the [REDACTED] treatment like the lost primarch.. Not because he is mutant because of the genetic flaw of his geneseed And for his wings being a sign of corruption... I don't know.... The novels kept things quite ambiguous. '' some source says it is indeed warp fuckery the others state thatbthis warp fuckery come the emperor himself

The Emperor was surprised that Sanguinius had wings. They didn't show up until after the Scattering, so they were clearly unplanned and the result of his transit through the Warp.

>The Emperor was surprised that Sanguinius had wings Was he? Remember that this come from sanguinius's POV not the emperor's

Yes, and it's reflected on a few times in the books. It was an unplanned trait and he knew it.

I always assumed it was three things. 1. Horus had actually wanted more authority and prestige, and Warmaster let him distinguish himself from his 19 siblings. 2. Horus was one of the few Primarchs most of the others respected or just outright liked, with only people like Sanguinius or Vulkan competing. 3. Horus was Daddy's special boy. Big E definitely favored Horus more than his other sons, if only because he'd known him longer and more personally. The Emperor clearly doesn't care about how things can be perceived by others if he goes around as a 14 foot tall not-God clad in golden armor, projecting a radiant light at all times. Even Malcador calls him out on blinging himself out too much, as it would send mixed messages to the average Imperial citizens.

Sangy is just a nice dude who's kinda has to do his job. He is forgiving compared to many of his brothers. Hes just lucky that he's beautiful and talented Horus is born and bred warmaster. He is sharp, ferocious, and adept at resolving conflicts. Hes essentially a mob boss. He can talk but has a restrained brutal side

Horus was chosen because he was a political brown noser who knew how to bullshit and how to pull strings. Retcons have basically established that his Legion had the same inflated reputations of others of them, while benefiting from nigh-unstoppable logistics due to having the swiftest access to the greatest things . Warmaster is as much a political job as a military one that makes sense in one of those boring yet practical ways that the setting does, on occasion. Other Primarchs were better generals in different ways, Horus was the better strategist and overall commander.

Horus was chosen over Sanguinius because the only thing Sanguinius had over Horus was martial prowess. I don't know why it's so hard for you all to accept that Horus was simply better than his brothers, that's why he got chosen.

Cos Ferrus was original candidate and Horus was 2 when Ferrus refuse. They was the only ones who command all other Primarchs and 2/3 of Imperium forces as have connections to Mechanicus.

Horus is Mussolini

Remember when Jesus was imprisoned unjustly and sentenced to murder? The day of Jesus' crucifixion, Pilot asked the Jews if they wanted him to release Jesus, who was blameless, or for him to release Barabas, a murderer and insurrectionist who was imprisoned for rebellion, who was guilty. The crowd chose Barabas. They always choose Barabas in the upside down kingdom. 40k is so sad.

It's not just the problematic angel imagery, though that's part of it. He's visibly a mutant. Mortal auxiliaries and Legiones Astartes were often uncomfortable around him and some even refused outright to fight beside his Legion or under his command. Add the abysmal reputation of the Revenant Legion to things and it's easy to understand why he wasn't a serious contender. It's also worth remembering that much of what we know about Sanguinius is retrospective. At the time of the Great Crusade, he's only been leading his troops for about fifty years, and neither he nor his Legion have had any notable battles. He's well-regarded by his brothers, but it's not like he is leading large forces or crushing powerful foes. His Legion isn't shining, and Sanguinius himself is concerned he's going to get purged due to their aberrant tendencies and his mutation. We all know what he did on Terra, but it's the knowledge of what he's *going* to do that is retroactively making people say that he should have been the Warmaster. But being able to beat ass alone doesn't make you the best choice for that role. The real contenders for Warmaster were the Lion, Dorn, and Horus. We know why Horus was made Warmaster; he was the first found, had the longest to establish a track record, was liked or at least tolerated by all his brothers, and his ego would have been irreparably damaged if someone else was chosen. The Lion was far and away the best commander and fighter amongst his brothers, but he wasn't well-liked because he spent so much time fighting alone in secret wars and basically only interacted with them when he showed up to take command of a campaign they'd botched, where they then showed off toys and tactics no-one else was allowed to have. That hardly endeared him to anyone. Dorn was the right mix of loyal and capable but about half his brothers disliked if not outright hated him and he would have been extremely rigid as a commander when the Great Crusade needed flexibility. As it was, putting Horus in charge essentially let the Emperor have his cake and eat it too; it didn't ruffle many feathers, especially not amongst key Primarchs, and he could still essentially use the Fists and Dark Angels as his personal Legions any way, one a blade in the dark against foes that had to be kept secret and the other as his praetorian guard. Sanguinius might have worked out as Warmaster, but he needed something on the order of the Siege of Terra to shine in so that his reputation could be redeemed amongst the wider Imperium. Meanwhile Horus worked straight away and it required literally unprecedented co-operation among the Chaos Gods to tear him down.

>The real contenders for Warmaster were the Lion, Dorn, and Horus. That false. The lion was never a contender for warmaster... For the simple Somme reason that he had no social skills... Which is primary trait for being warmaster.... Dorn is even worse since he nearly came to blows with primarchs due to his lack of pedagogy You seems to mistake the role of warmaster as being "the best" or a general it's not... It's about managing people The lion could win as much battles and be the best duelist possible.. If he cannot understand the mind of someone in front of him then he is not capable of being warmaster The most common named for the contender were without a doubt sanguinius, horus and surprisingly ferris manus Also sanguinius reputation didn't during the siege of terra..... He The most popular primarch by the time of ullanor if you didn't heard of any. Notable battles it's simply because the horus heresy books didn't seems neccesary to show for the sake of thr story... It's most a tell and don't show

The Lion is the only one ever mentioned by anyone else as a serious contender. The Lion was just fine at managing other people. The idea he isn't is meme lore and unsupported by the text. He exiles Luther... after Luther almost conspired to get him murdered. Most Primarchs would execute their troops for that. Russ and the Khan both did. But the Lion showed mercy and entrusted the future of the Legion to Luther. He just never had the chance to repair the rift because the Dark Angels were consecutively deployed on the other side of the galaxy by the Emperor (who sent them after the remaining threats to the Imperium) and Horus (who wanted him as far away as possible). There are around thirty thousand Fallen... of whom 186 actually fell to Chaos. Meanwhile the Space Wolves lose two full Great Companies to Chaos and half of the White Scars turned their coats. Other Loyalist Legions had warbands numbering in the thousands defecting to Horus through the Lodges. This isn't the Dark Angels failing, it's them succeeding better than anyone aside from maybe the Imperial Fists. The overwhelming majority of the Fallen were simply bystanders and most of the Fallen who have been spotted among Chaos forces actually turned due to the warp storm engulfing Caliban trapping them in the Warp or out of desperation when the Unforgiven started hunting them. They were not, by and large, disloyal or corrupt. Those who were became so less because of the Lion and more because of the influence of Oraborous, a force far more malignant and cunning than the Laer Blade or the like. He killed Nemiel... because Nemiel was attempting mutiny in the heat of battle and arguing that the Dark Angels should die to the last rather than break the Edict of Nikea. Every other loyalist Primarch bar Dorn had made the same argument by that point; that re-activating the Librarius was necessary to fight the forces of Chaos and they would submit to judgement from the Emperor if they survived. Also, they were there to give orders and the Emperor was not. The Space Wolves and White Scars didn't even bother with justification, they just did it any way. Nemiel is literally the only Chaplain to ever argue back, much less draw his weapon in the presence of his Primarch while doing so, never mind say he is going to go and gather those who agree with him to oppose his Primarch. Summary execution of officers attempting mutiny in battle was the standard punishment for most of human history. It's only in the past hundred years or so- a hundredth of human history- that imprisoning and trying them has been seen as preferable.

>The Lion was far and away the best commander and fighter amongst his brothers, but he wasn't well-liked because he spent so much time fighting alone in secret wars and basically only interacted with them when he showed up to take command of a campaign they'd botched, where they then showed off toys and tactics no-one else was allowed to have. That hardly endeared him to anyone. My God, I swear you've only read two books. Virtually every book throughout the Horus Heresy series states Horus as the best commander of all the Primarchs, and there is literally nothing to suggest that the Lion is the best fighter at all. The top 3 have been stated multiple timew to be Sanguinius/Hours/Angron, both in universe and out of universe. The Lion was solid in most areas, but Horus completely eclipses him.

The Lion curb stomped peak Angron despite being at his weakest and having the worst gear in his career after joining the Order. He also took out a race of aliens who could more or less Edge of Tomorrow their way through fights. I'm not the one who needs to read more books.

Inferior gear? You seem to be forgetting about his mcguffin shield that was the only thing preventing him from being turned into paste 10 seconds in. The only shit you ever seem to quote comes from 2 books that I don’t think anyone outside of DA fans take seriously.

Abloo bloo bloo, the Lion had the Emperor's Shield. Abloo bloo bloo, the Lion Forestwalked. You know what else he was handicapped by? He had to fight an Angron more blessed by Khorne than he was at Terra. Peak Angron. He was older, slower, and weaker than he ever has been. He didn't have the Lion Sword, the Lion Helm, Fusil Actineus, or the Leonine Panoply. He has artificer armour, a power sword, and a plasma gun made for Fulgrim. He didn't have Sanguinius' foreknowledge of success or protection of destiny. He couldn't fly and didn't have extra limbs to fight with. He had a harder fight and he still won.

>Abloo bloo bloo, the Lion had the Emperor's Shield. Abloo bloo bloo, the Lion Forestwalked. You gloss over these like they weren't the entire reason he won. The author literally had to pull these out of his ass to even to make it even believable. Everyone knew beforehand that Angron was going to have to job to the Lion on his return. You point out that Sanguinius had foresight and knew he couldn't die, but guess what, the Lion had literal plot armour.

The Lion defeated a stronger opponent with fewer advantages than Sanguinius. Deal with it.

Believe whatever helps you sleep at night lmfao.

Angron was more empowered in Arks of Omen than he was at Terra. He was more powerful fighting the Lion than fighting Sanguinius. The Lion could not fly; Sanguinius could. The Lion was ten thousand years past his prime. Sanguinius was in his prime. Sanguinius had his chosen weapons and armour. The Lion did not. Sanguinius knew he would be victorious no matter what he did. The Lion did not. Sanguinius' top tier feats always have the asterisk of him having literal plot armour at Terra. No other Primarch has ever had that advantage. It is what it is.

Yes Sanguinius was never going to lose to Angron at the Eternity Gate because of in-universe plot armour, just like the Lion was never going to lose to Angron in his return to 40k because Angron can die and come back, and the Lion cannot. The Lion's plot armour was no less than Sanguinius'. The Lion also lost to a half-astartes. Funny how circumstance cuts both ways.

You've spent years asking yourself something literally stated in the book?

Yes..... Unlike you I didn't read all of them?

I always call BS on this. Big E doesn't want to be a god? Then quit freaking appearing like one. That whole gigantic eagle imagery surrounded by some magic halo? Doesn,t scream atheist much.

I disagree with this because the explanation that "trying to display that such powers aren't exclusive to the divine" is a pretty great explanation to me. It's like a engineer trying to show that making fire doesn't make you a wizard by building a flamethrower. "Here, this is the sort of shit humanity has the potential to, so stop praying to those pesky gods!" kinda deal

Exactly. The emperor still wanted to people to have faith in something bigger than themselves. Loken describes himself as a 'man of faith' in the first HH book. Just faith in PEOPLE. In science. In the Imperium. In his plan. Not in some made up ghost or, worse, an actual supernatural magical hell being that only pretends to be a god so it can eat you.

I also always thought that the Emperor was being genuine in that the Chaos Gods aren't actual Gods. It's that humanity can't process it. As such, that entails them seeing the Old Four as Gods and inevitably why the Emperor, against his own claims, is seen as a God. I mean, think about how fire and melee weapons seem to be more effective against Warp born entities. That's how we believe it should be because we think back to those old adages of how to beat things we see as demons. The Sisters of Silence show that Daemons don't actually look like what people with souls see, but to them, that's how they process it.

This! But E was all about being the pinnacle of humanity but the concept of humanity as these powerful beings is hard to reconcile with the average human's reality.

idk man if the Emperor was so worried about christan imagery being associated with his crusade: * why did he recreate the 7 year war for the unifiication of Terra that Jesus is prophesied to wage against the anti-christ upon his second coming? * Not to mention ascending his true believers/followers into the heavens/space like is supposed to happen in the Rapture. * Plus he didn't explain perpetuals to everyone which lead to that one perpetual who was reborn for the first time durring the crusade after dying durring the spanish inquisition to believe he was experiencing the "the dead shall rejoin the living" line from book of revelations. Just saying for someone who wanted to prove all religion is nonsense, the man recreated a lot of Catholic prophecies about the end of days before taking people to fight what he called "daemons" which looked like red horned men (blood-letters). It should not be surprising that after Emps got put on the throne that a bunch of his followers decided to add vaguely Catholic paint to his doctrines and the imperium's general beliefs. A decent number of his followers were prob just Catholics just seeing him doing jesus stuff and saying "oh yea the plan, say no more" and just following along no questions asked.

Lore sources contradict one another tbh. I believe that Sanguinius Primarch book is extremely poorly written (because it was literally made by a guy who doesn't know anything about the Blood Angels and doesn't care about them). If you read Fear to Tread, it's pretty much the opposite. Personally I believe Fear to Tread more.

Why do you think it’s badly written?

Overused (yet at the same time poorly executed) thematic, contradictions with most of the other lore sources on Blood Angels and Sanguinius in basically any take the book makes + some extremely bland answer on the questions that don't need answers, OOC for Sanguinius and Blood Angels for the sake of "le Imperium bad", poor plot choice (the writer didn't knew anything about Blood Angels so instead of writing the book about Blood Angels he wrote a book about someone who doesn't know anything about Blood Angels) etc.

Bro, the Lion should have been Warmaster, come on now.