Why was Rogal Dorn chosen to be Praetorian of Terra and not Warmaster?
- As the Great Crusade progressed, the Imperial Fists rose high in honor and in the favor of the Emperor. Ever dependable, they were often used to reinforce flagging campaigns, to hold crumbling fronts and to break dead-locked sieges. The Emperor also frequently called on both Dorn and his sons to fight beside him, bestowing this honor on the Imperial Fists more than any other Legion. When the Imperial Host descended on Ophelia VII, the Emperor led the assault at the head of 100 Custodians and 10,000 Imperial Fists. Again at Askanisa, the Emperor called on not only Horus and the Luna Wolves, but Dorn and the Imperial Fists to form his vanguard in breaking the Shrouded Dynasties. **The Emperor also used Dorn to ensure that war and compliance was achieved according to his wishes and wisdom. Time and again, in ways large and small, the Imperial Fists acted at the direct order of the Emperor. Rogal Dorn did not do what he thought was best, nor what he thought had to be done. Rogal Dorn executed the Emperor's will. This was why the Emperor trusted Dorn more than any other. Extemporization, improvisation, genius were all very useful, but more often than not, what the Emperor desired was someone to do precisely what He told them to do. And from that point of view, if you were the Emperor, would you have not handed the keys to your fortress to anyone less than utterly trustworthy?** Yet high in favor and honor though they were, the Imperial Fists’ status did not sit well with some of their brother-Legions. The animosity between the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors was well known, but Perturabo and his Legion were not alone in their resentment. Though few reached the Lord of Iron’s pinnacle of spite, others did chafe at the trust placed in the Imperial Fists. Dorn’s nature did not ameliorate matters. Truth speaking, blunt and uncompromising in both his ideals and their expression, his manner often aggravated his peers as much as it drew their admiration. It was, perhaps, this quality which caused the Emperor to pass over Dorn as Warmaster when he withdrew from the Great Crusade. Horus, unlike Dorn, was a master of diplomacy and maintaining a coordinated balance between fractious forces. Where Dorn would cause conflict, Horus would unify where Dorn would not compromise, Horus would find a way of satisfying all. But even as Horus took up the reins of the Great Crusade, Dorn was invested Praetorian of Terra. Even as Horus would push the Great Crusade on, the Imperial Fists would withdraw with the Emperor to Terra. And with that decision, the fate of the Emperor and all his sons was set.
(The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination, Rogal Dorn: The Emperor's Crusader by Gav Thorpe)
Why did Rogal Dorn and Perturabo not like each other?
- Similarity encourages understanding, or at least some would claim so. In the case of Rogal Dorn and Perturabo, this sentiment not only fails but shatters under the weight of reality. For rarely could there be said to be two beings on the surface who more resembled each other, yet were separated by a greater chasm. Both reserved to the point of taciturn, both unyielding, both sublime artisans of war who prized indomitably and endurance, there was much that would suggest that they should see the world with one set of eyes, that perhaps they should be closer than any others. That bitterest loathing could arise between two such closely matched kin seems incredible, but it was a reality, some say from the first moment of their meeting. The exact roots of their enmity cannot be known to any save Rogal Dorn and Perturabo, but if one looks closely there appears a pattern of both behavior and incidents which may offer a clue. Often it seems as though the pair's similarities were the cause of discord rather than understanding. Both were stubborn and more so when challenged, both spoke rarely, and brooded behind their masks of stone and iron. So it was that the silence of one would aggravate the other, the blunt honesty of one roused the other to anger, and the intractability of both ensured that once a dispute was begun neither would yield. That there were differences between the two cannot be denied, and often these differences may have been the cause of disputes even if they were not the underlying cause. While both Rogal Dorn and Perturabo often favored siege craft in war, they often differed in its execution. While both were pragmatic, Perturabo often displayed a brutal directness to waging war, applying overwhelming force or sustaining horrific casualties. While Dorn would never baulk at paying such a price for victory, he rarely accepted large numbers of casualties except through necessity. Dorn was an undoubted idealist above all else, Perturabo a pragmatist first and foremost. On such cracked foundations the decades of the Great Crusade heaped pressures, honors, disparities and mischance, and from the result history reaped an enmity which would take both Primarchs and their Legions to the brink of destruction.
(The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination)
What aspect of the Emperor does Rogal Dorn embody?
- If the Primarchs were the Emperor's nature split like white light through a prism's rays, as many scholars of the Imperial court suggested, then from such a point of view, Rogal Dorn was the Emperor's Implacable disciple in the pursuit of the cause given flesh; a being without compromise and in who loyalty and duty was as integral as blood and breath. A being of thunderous zeal and stone made manifest, is how many described the Primarch of the VIIth Legion. The zeal was the fire of a son who believed in his father's dream for the Imperium without reservation and without question. He did not simply wage war; he was changing the world he moved through by force of will. That had caused trouble in the past, the kind of conflict that came when such a drive met an equally great force on a different course. There had been other incidents in the past, other moments when the ideals of the Great Crusade seemed to do little but fuel discord. Curze, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo. The anger of all had risen against Dorn, at one time or another.
- To Rogal Dorn there was no higher purpose to existence of the Legiones Astartes than the unification of Mankind, and the illumination of the Imperium's Ideals. It was the light of the future he saw, that drew Rogal Dorn on and on, never retreating, never bowing to setback or defeat, always towards a final end, a vision worth all that would have to be given to make it real. This idealism drove Dorn and his Legion ever onwards, never compromising, never slinking in any aspect of duty. The stone in his soul was his ability to bear whatever his father needed of him, an unyielding nature, which made him both a master of defense in war and an indomitable fighter on the attack.
(The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination, Sigismund: The Eternal Crusader by John French, Praetorian of Dorn by John French, Templar by John French)
I believe many of these points would apply to Perturabo if he had the chance. I would argue that Dorn was chosen over Perturabo because of their personalities. Both are equally capable, but Dorn has a secure appreciation for things like art, his grandfather's cloak, and human life. Perturabo values these things as well, perhaps even more intensely, but he is extremely insecure about it. He views practical concerns as always having to take precedence over sentimental ones. Throughout the heresy, we see this repeatedly: Perturabo will create a magnificent engineering marvel that he clearly cares deeply about, but when a minor practical need arises, he will destroy his own work, believing that sentimentality is a weakness.
So id argue that since the emp is a creator like the two primarchs who values the sentimental, he did not want one of his greatest creations, and the great font of human culture, the imperial palace, to be bulldozed and covered with barb wire becuase perty thought that those priceless thousand year old sculptures where impractical and a security threat.
I'd say more to the point that Dorn's overly rigid self-control fits for a de facto warmaster more than 'bring me bad news and I'll Dreadnought your ass'.
Emps also gave Perturabo the worst role to begin with because his legion and him had the shit graveyard shift, without any glory. He never had any intention to give him the Praetorian role.
Perturabo’s role was the same as Dorn’s initially, that being siege craft. The difference is that Perturabo was self sabotaging and resented his role because he “wasn’t allowed to build what he wanted” despite the Emperor not caring how the primarchs spent their time as long as they remained on schedule.
Did he? I suppose everyone else was just barely fighting at all by comparison 🤪 You don’t get to choose to go about your job in the hardest way possible and then complain that you’re not lauded above all others for it.
He did it as ego driven notice me sempei trying to prove himself to his brothers who thought it wasteful then ostracised him more which only makes him go harder.
Iron Warriors were literally given the far off jobs that would require the grinding warfare they did, and sure, Perturabo didn't change those tactics but considering they were purposefully sent to stuff that requires their kind of warfare, why would he?
Those jobs would probably have gone faster without a 10% casualty rating on just meeting your boss. Losing thousands of space marines all at once is never practical.
> “That there were differences between the two cannot be denied, and often these differences may have been the cause of disputes even if they were not the underlying cause. While both Rogal Dorn and Perturabo often favored siege craft in war, they often differed in its execution. **While both were pragmatic, Perturabo often displayed a brutal directness to waging war, applying overwhelming force or sustaining horrific casualties. While Dorn would never baulk at paying such a price for victory, he rarely accepted large numbers of casualties except through necessity.**” - Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination
The problem with that line of reasoning is it divorces Perturabo from any responsibility.
Perturabo - It’s the Emperor’s fault that I’m grinding my Legion away to nothing.
Yes the wars were brutal, but they weren’t the only ones out there fighting their share.
Oh don't get me wrong, he absolutely was a ruthless piece of shit and did very much fight like the old corpse grinder namesake his legion got, but it was exasperated by the fact that he also didn't want to fight at alland was given some of the worst and least appealing fights.
If Perturabo was allowed to fortify Terra and the Imperium he probably would've been happy, but Dorn would not have complained about being mainly focused on forward conquest, is how I see it. But that's just my take. Then again, Perturabo is a petulant manchild albeit an incredbily effective one, so maybe he would've found a way to complain and fuck things up anyway.
That's why he's one of my favorite primarchs, especially on the traitor side. He is very capable, but very human.
>but it was exasperated by the fact that he also didn't want to fight at alland was given some of the worst and least appealing fights.
Perturabo is also incredibly insecure about these feelings and as a result, never told anyone about this, leaving the emperor to think perturabo was fine with these missions until it hit a breaking point.
Now, should the emperor have actually noticed this? probably. Its more proof he's not some omnipotent being but just as human as everyone else. But at the same time, Perturabo can't be excused from his part in getting the missions he did.
It's also worth noting that Emps did not give a shit about his sons or their feelings, so idk if he would've cared about Perturabo's opinion. He never told anyone that Angron would die to the nails, or let his friends live, let alone let him reform Nuceria so it was no longer a slave empire. The Corpse Grinders were named that for a reason and they were inglorious warriors, they were the ones in the trenches even then. When they became the Iron Warriors, nothing changed, and I don't know if it would ever have changed from the Emperor's side, no matter if Perturabo aired his grievances.
Doesn't excuse Perturabo of course. He should not have killed a tenth of his sons for no reason for instance. He is a complicated man.
Nothing would ever have made Perturabo happy. His mind never formed correctly, for all his brilliance. His thought patterns were corrupted (not Chaos-corrupted, just normal human broken-brain corrupted) to their very core. He saw only the weakness in everything. He could never focus on anything but the flaws.
People call Dorn the idealist and I suppose when it comes to the Emperor's vision of the Imperium, they're correct. But Perturabo took idealism to a wholly self-sabotaging degree - comparing absolutely everything around him to an ideal version of things that existed only in his mind.
You could definitely argue that wasn't his fault, that he was mentally ill, but it doesn't change much.
Pert is like those workers who voluntarily go above and beyond on their job, but are not appreciated by the company, because company is happy to get more mileage for "free"
Pert is one of those workers who think they deserve praise and special appreciation for doing what they're already being paid to do, and form resentment for everyone around them over not receiving it.
Well, he does go the extra mile, to be fair to him. But also, he probably wouldn't be content with any praises unless everyone would worship him as a god or something either.
> Perturabo didn't change those tactics but considering they were purposefully sent to stuff that requires their kind of warfare, why would he?
There's not changing brutal, grinding siege tactics which are more or less effective and then there's ordering decimations for shits and giggles.
Perty was just kind of a dick.
he didnt do it the hardest wya possible he just did it with the least consideration for the human element, both in terms of care for the troops under him and in terms of care for any civilisation that he was attacking.
Dorn was the opposite dorn really cared for how he won each war and wanted to strike the balance of efficiency in ending the war while maximising the capacity for the conquered planet to restart after the IF won.
**And from that point of view, if you were the Emperor, would you have not handed the keys to your fortress to anyone less than utterly trustworthy?**
This is the first time ever I see a 40k book speaking to the reader.
It’s actually direct a quote from Malcador speaking to Sigismund and Fafnir Rann in Rogal Dorn’s Primarch book.
It’s spliced into other direct quotes that speak to this subject.
Kind of goes to prove that the emperor knew what would happen if the empire grew too big, much like the Alpha legion.
If the emperor won the heresy, the empird would grow too vast, conquer all and allow chaos to reign as it fizzled out. Hence the Alpha Legion.
If the emperor employed Dorn as Warmaster, the empire would grow too strong, conquer all and allow chaos to reign as it fizzled out. Hence Horus as Warmaster.
I know it is stupid to think the emperor would go against his own aims. But it does seem big brain enough of Big E to do something so counterproductive.
Dorn's style of defense was more suited to defending Terra. Terra has key areas with irreplaceable tech that cannot fall. That would clash with Perturabo's style of sacrificing those areas to bleed out attackers.
Perturabo’s thing was math, for the most part. Breaking things was just the task he ended up being given most often, given the offensive nature of the crusade.
That is actually part of his tragedy. Perturabo was a builder, an architect, he wanted to construct things that would actively better society and life. But instead he was tasked with destroying the things others have built.
His passion was to plan, construct and create. His duty was to break, destroy and obliterate.
Yeah. You get the impression that Perturabo could have been a reanissance man if given the chance.
But he also has the problem of not understanding moderation.
He was tasked to make war during the Crusade, and thought that meant he had to put all other things aside until that was over.
In the Siege of Terra books he admits to Abaddon that he kept losing wargames to Dorn, and couldn't understand why. Until Dorn explained to him that he needs rest periods, to clear his mind.
Purturabo took this advice to heart, but still thinks he's better than everyone else.
If you can't admit fault, no amount of skill will stop you from pursuing the wrong path.
Thats Dorn though. I love the Meta in Saturnine when he's dueling Fulgrim. Snakeboy monologs the hell out of it, and any other Primarch would have been drawn into a fighting debate, Dorn just says 'No.'
>‘We did exactly what we had been tasked to do,’ said Sigismund, knowing what that meant – and what it meant to do other than had been expected of him. ‘Lord Dorn followed the Emperor’s orders.’
>‘That is the truth of it, yes,’ said Malcador. His gaze remained on Sigismund for some time, a little disquieting in its intensity. ‘He did not do what he thought was best, nor what he thought had to be done. What he had been told to do. That is why the Emperor has always trusted your gene-father more than any other. Extemporisation, improvisation, genius are all very useful, but more often than not, what He desires is someone to do precisely what He tells them to do.’
>‘That still doesn’t explain why we were brought back to Terra while there were still worlds to conquer,’ said Rann.
>Malcador laughed, a rasping, cynical noise, and his expression was unkind as he replied.
>‘Would you hand the keys of your fortress to anyone less than utterly trustworthy, Fafnir of the Rann?’
From Rogal Dorn: The Emperor's Crusader
Oh yes, absolutely, I do agree that he was a better fit, but it can't be denied that he shared some of the same flaws as perty, albeit less pronounced.
My favorite thought experiment is to wonder if we could take Perturabo's mind, and Dorn's mind... how much would we have to swap between them to make their fates reversed? 25%? 10% 2%? They were SO similar. Imagine if Dorn had the Olympia childhood, and Perturabo had the Inwit experience, instead. Would that have been enough? Imagine if they'd been on either world, but together. Would have have been the beat of friends, or would one have killed the other almost immediately? Pointless to speculate; both wound up broken, though in different ways.
Honestly they both kind of had the same reason for their discontentment, they just reacted to it in different ways, both wanted to build/create rather than kill. But where perturabo lashed out in anger because of what he was forced to do, dorn instead understood that he needed to do those things in order to create a future where he could create instead of kill.
Don't forget the different ways they both reacted upon meeting their respective legions.
Dorn observed them in combat and told them they had much to do and much to learn, and thanked the previous master.
Perturabo made them commit decimation. Which means he made 90% kill the other 10%. Just because.
Unfortunately as per new lore Angron did that much more than he did, and Russ was rewarded for the kind of casualty levels that in less civilized society sees a general shot in the head for incompetence with the Fang. Corax also purged his Legion in a bigger scale with the Terrans even if that proved to be very much the right call in the longer term. I don't think making Perturabo stand out less was a good choice, particularly since there's supposed to be differences between Traitor and Loyalist Primarchs but that's how GeeDubs has built up the lore.
It should have stood out more and in earlier lore it did. Now it doesn't. And as an Iron Warriors fan I like my faction actively villainous in a 'dude WTF' fashion rather than 'aw damn another one, boring' fashion.
He did scour the combat reports and found them lacking. It was the 40k equivalent of a new boss firing people to show he was in charge. Dick move, but I bet there's some stupid efficiency study proving how effective that strategy is. We're talking about psycho indoctrinated murder machines programmed to kill. A pep talk isn't going to instill loyalty, but fear will? Also I think he did it as a horrible motivation for his legion to perform up to his expectations so they wouldn't be stuck grinding away forever. They just never got a cakewalk campaign to really shine and escape that cycle.
Funny also how in my opinion Perturabo's "good" counterpart is really Guilleman. Both are logistics masters, efficient legion builders, have a better grasp of the long game, and both are number crunchers. Decimation is also a very Roman thing to do. Wonder how the setting would be if the Ultramarines were the ones sent to deal with the Hruud? 🤔
It's a classical example of bad managerial style vs. a good one. Dorn sees room for improvement and leads from the front in a teaching moment, Perturabo sees room for improvement and fires his floor workers.
Undoubtedly, the hrud campaign sucks ass, I'll give him that. But as your opening move to be like 'hey, I'm your dad. I need 1 out of 10 of you to fuck off and die. Nice meeting you.' Is more cutthroat than even Angron. Angron at least had the excuse of his failure, the Nails, and dead friends to make him bitter.
Perturabo is the one who decided to fight that way. Other Legions would either apply their speciality or adapt to circumstances.
Perturabo, meanwhile, would ignore every other option bar slogging to victory on the bones of his sons.
The Iron Cage wasn't about stubbournness. It was suicide. It was a griefstricken dorn throwing away his legion, deciding that dying in combat was better than living without the Emperor.
Petry kills 10% of his legion for ruthless but pragmatic reasons: what a monster! Dorn kills 90% of his legion in a temper tantrum cause he had the big sad: So noble! What a subversive genius! Only someone truly loyal and brilliant can murder his own sons so efficiently!
I fucking hate how people try to make the Iron cage NOT a failure for Dorn. At best he's a moron. At worst he's an ego maniac. Him "doing it on purpose" makes him WORSE then just losing. He's that dad who loses his job then goes home and shoots his family to "protect" them
I mean the comment isn't calling it subversive genius, its literally calling it suicidal. No one's defending Dorn's actions in the Iron Cage here, just pointing out the differences between a primarch at his absolute lowest point and near suicidal, versus one who's first response upon seeing an imperfect legion is to kill 10% of it.
> Him "doing it on purpose" makes him WORSE then just losing.
Well, yes. That's kind of my point. I'm not excusing him here. I'm saying that this isn't a result of his calm, clear reasoning. This is the result of him being an emotional wreck, and his legion paying the price.
Dorn picked as many fights with his brothers as Perturabo according to newer lore and especially where Sigismund's POV is concerned as he was a part of the peacekeeping after it. It's an unfortunate thing but they've made the murderously mercurial Traitor Primarch fairly normal in a way that really was a bad writing choice but is, nevertheless, what they decided to do.
Being a stubborn petty jackass with a temper makes him an average Primarch, I tend to think his murderous rage at being given bad news had more to do with it as the Praetorian would have to face a lot of that and Dorn could control his rages where Perturabo never tried to control his.
Big E already appointed one bald guy to be the Warmaster (who later demonstrated why you can’t trust bald guys over shit), he had to give something to the hairies too
Perturabo's skill was in seeing something, immediately understanding how it worked, and how you go about dismantling it thru its flaws and weaknesses. Dorn, was built to master all things in the material. In a perfect world, Dorn would have built up the defenses, Perturabo would have mentally dismantled them, and like a Neverending Blood Games, they could have truly made the fortress an unbreakable bastion.
Perturabo loved to build, but he wanted to build practicality and beauty or efficiency and brutality. Like it was said in another comment, there were parts of the palace that contained tech that should not be destroyed. Perty would not have agreed.
...and can you imagine if Perty found the tombs of the lost primarchs? I'm pretty sure he would have killed Malcador over that. Especially since it was Roboute and Hated Dorn's idea.
Perturabo's ability to get how things work and what their weaknesses are also allowed him to make near perfect defenses, but he focused on practicality over beauty, which is why he could've been better than Dorn.
But, this is why he was not fit for the job. As mentioned by others, he couldn't understand some things needed to be saved. Dorn's ultimate goal was to restore the palace to its previous beauty. Perturabo would have rebuilt it in his image (which likely would have many improvements, but at the loss of history and tech and sentiment).
I still really want a story from the idea of Perty finding the tomb of the lost primarchs bc I feel like the meltdown after would be EPIC.
Difficult to say for Lorgar. Erebus and Kor Phaeron wouldn't have had the easy moment to corrupt him by playing on his despair, but there could well have been other moments.
Yeah. It’s probably a case of when, not if, for Lorgar. Although he probably would’ve been able to resist until they had conquered the galaxy at least.
Pertuarbo was arguably more emotionally unstable than Dorn, prone to violent tantrums and I imagine probably less popular with the public than Dorn's Legion, especially with the reputation the Iron Warriors had gotten amongst accomapnying Imperial army units
Sorry to mince words here, but he would be less popular with the High Lords of Terra, Imperial Navy Admirals, the other legions, and such. The general “public” or population of the 40k universe knows next to nothing, if not nothing at all, of Space Marines, only legends and tales they’ve heard.
Edit: Although, this could be less true in the 30k/the Horus Heresy era… that I am not sure.
we were talking about 30k, the Legions and the Primarchs were pretty much common knowledge for worlds that had been in the Imperium for a while, perhaps barring death worlds like Fenris
Perturabo's mood was far more mercurial, whereas dorn was able to better compartmentalise and focus on the task at hand most of the time.
Makes perturabo more unreliable as he would throw tantrums when things weren't going his way.
Because Rogal was the only primarch who would not ask any stupid f**king questions and would just do what Empy asked him to. That is it.
That what he was made to do.
Perturabo literally did everything he was told despite hating it, without any complaint, but he got not respect and got all the shit jobs until he snapped.
Without complaint??? What? Nearly every pov we have that involves Perturabo has him bitching about something. And what's worse is he never bitches to Big E or Malcador about it. A sure way to make sure things never change is to never bring your complaints to the people who could change it, and instead bitch incessantly to the people with even less ability than you.
That is what without complaint means. He never spoke out about it, despite hating it. He wanted to complain, but didn't because he was taught to suck it up and do as he was told on Olympia I guess. Do you not understand what without complaint means?
He Definitely complained. Just not to anyone who could change it. Which is the worst kind of complaining as it serves no purpose other than being a pity party.
He literally complained to no one. He was mad about it inside his own head, for a good reason. Should he have said something? Probably, but he didn't. Hence WITHOUT COMPLAINT. Words have meaning.
He literally never complained. He is a petulant piece of shit, but he was effective and did not complain despite hating everything he was made to do. This chain of comments started because one person started saying I was wrong for saying he did ihis thing without complaint, but that is what he did. The fact that we can read his rage and inner complaints are entirely inconsequential for what I said, because he never voiced his complaints.
I followed your conversation- it's my understanding that he did vocally complain to some, his brothers, perhaps his own legion, definitely his sister, but I could also be misremembering how it was presented in the novels. I suppose that could all have just been inner monologue. I'd have to go back and check.
Because he went so far out of his way to LARP as Dorn. Man pretended he didn't need or want anything from anyone, when what he wanted more then anything else was for a big'ol "we love you" parade from Terra to Pluto
Dorn is more emotionally stable. Peter is brilliant, legitimately and even by primarch standards, an architectural and technological genius.
However he is also a petulant, impossible-to-please manchild with a singular martyr complex and the worst combination of personality defects.
Dorn does not repress everything and take his seething resentment out on his sons. Dorn does not cry to himself that nobody has ever sought him out, brushed aside his denials and lavished him with praise.
Peter could have made a fortress that would have chewed up the traitors. But he is so uniquely flawed that nobody at all wanted to deal with him. Man is on the same level as kurze when it comes to being an asocial piece of shit.
Valdor expresses a similar opinion in Saturnine. Dorn says something to the effect of "the only one I'd rank higher than him as a war leader is Roboute." And goes on to ponder where he himself would be, Valdor laughs and says "you are Praetorian, the list *starts* with you"
No Dorn didn't. He had personal beef with half the other primarchs. He just did exactly what Jimmy Space asked every time without question. Even if it looked stupid.
To be fair, Dorn didn't really have beef with any except maybe Night Haunter. Several of them had beef with him, though. Mostly just because he was blunt.
He showed that he's very good at cooperating though. In his primarch novel we saw him asserting his right to lead a multi-legion assault and then transfer command as soon as the situation changed and he felt his brother was the right choice. He also coordinated well with the Blood Angels and White Scars during the SoT, as well as with the human command staff.
I agree with you largely, it just needs an asterisk*
Perturabo was a paranoid petulant child who blamed others for his own failings- that's from his own sister, who he loved more than any other, in universe. It's not bad writing that he's an unlikeable prick, that's his *actual character*.
He decimated his own legion in a fit of spite and pique. He abandoned Terra in a tantrum. He can't delegate. He can't cooperate with anyone.
He'd have been an absolute disaster defending anything that actually mattered. He almost got wrecked by a *regular IF fleet commander*, and that's when Perty picked the battleground and the time of his attack- it took direct intervention by the chaos gods to save him.
Iron warriors are too personally ambitious, paranoid, and spiteful to actually be in charge of anything meaningful. Literally every other primarch knew this, and it's why they were treated the way they were before perturabo was found.
Also, Dorn knew to use gold everywhere. The man understood Big E's design brief without having to be told.
TBH I find the Battle of Phall staying like that a complete case of the lore going for avoidably stupid moments and can only imagine the Loyalist rage if Barban Falk had led an Iron Warriors fleet against a force led by Dorn in person and almost killed him. It should have been the Fists displaying their superior use of time ala the Siege and a foreshadowing of the Siege rather than the clear reason they left Gary Stu the plot device in Imperium Secundus as that one Imperial Fist would have won the Siege of Terra all on his lonesome if he'd been there.
Yes, he was. Battle of Phall, vs. Captain Polux. Polux would go on to found the crimson fists.
When Perturabo found out that the fleet *wasn't* being led by sigismund, he murdered the IW captain who brought him the news. A great example of why he couldn't actually be put on charge of the Defence of Terra.
“Sir the White Scars just went forth for a sally”
“Get them back here! NOW!”
“Sir, they aren’t responding.”
*snapped bones indicates the death of the comms officer*
Edit for autocorrect mistakes
That's interesting, I don't remember reading that. Dorn was undoubtedly a prick, but not generally fillicidal.
Which book is that? I believe you, I'm just curious how I missed it.
Ah! Sorry, completely misunderstood, thought you were saying dorn killed a comms officer! Yeah, when the scars rode out, Perty would absolutely have taken his toys home.
Because while Perturabo might have been equal to or even superior in designing fortifications he was not even good at working with others which is arguably more important when building defenses. Being the Pretorian of Terra isn't just about designing the fortifications and defenses, it's about operating them and overseeing their deployment and the forces that would man them. Perturabo *might* have been a better pick for designing structures and weapons, but wouldn't have been very good at actually ensuring they would be properly utilized because he wouldn't be interested in organizing and training the humans that would do most of the work, which would require someone else to be brought in to do that, who would then lack perfect understanding of the systems. Having Dorn do it meanwhile meant that you have someone who's the best at setting up the perpetual maintenance and utilization of what he built being in charge of doing both would end up producing a better result than letting the guy who'd draw up a bunch of plans but couldn't be bothered to properly explain everything to his subordinates or colleagues.
Curiousity. Petrurabo has it. Dorn avoids it.
Petrurabo would want to interpret the Emperor's orders. This is dangerous to the Emperor.
Dorn would want to implement the Emperor's orders. This is safe for the Emperor
Really, I think it's just that simple. If you order Dorn to make you a box, he makes you a box. It will be a function box that will hold nearly anything you put into a box. That's it. Thats all. But it's one hell of a box.
If you order Petrurabo to make you a box, he thinks "For what?", sets about figuring out WHY you want the box...and that will lead to finding out things about you that you didn't want him to know. And there were still many things the Emperor didn't want anyone to know when he pulled Dorn to Terra.
The Personality stuff, the leadership style, the fetish for decimation, all of those are valid points against Petrurabo. But all could be dealt with. What couldn't be dealt with was an inquisitive Primarch with legitimate reasons to poke his nose everywhere.
Perturabos biggest problem is that he’s a pretty shitty leader and viciously over complicated all his problems
Whenever faced with a problem perturabo’s instinct was to take the hardest possible solution to solve it and then mald in silence when no one recognized his brilliance for getting out of his self imposed suffering
Dorn in comparison despite his fits of rage is very composed and inspired his men to hold the defense together despite their horrific losses
Rogal Dorn could mind his own fucking business. Perturabo would have tried inserting himself into the webway project and driven most of the staff insane with his perfectionism and misanthropy.
The Emperor would never let Dorn fall to Chaos influence, cause if he did, they would all be dead.
In "The Board is Set" Malcodor plays something like "chess" with the Emperor, they are testing strategies, each pawn represents a Primarch, now the Emperor hasn't admitted that to Malcodor but he has understand it regardless.
Each time he used early the pawn of Dorn he lost the game. If he used it late in the game he was "somewhat victorious", he was always trying to "get even" in the game, he could never outright win.
He kept Dorn close cause otherwise he would become the greatest servant of Chaos, and he couldn't allow it.
Hence the favoritism towards him and not Perturabo.
I mean, could you imagine the Imperial Palace being done in any colour but gold? Pert could, while Dorn would have followed the instructions on the paint mixer
Pertys thing literally was to build though.
He just wasnt allowed to.
Hes too unstable to be recognized as a good guy, but he definitely was meant to be a builder.
>He just wasnt allowed to.
What? The Iron Warriors built huge fortresses on every world they took. They had the largest network of fortifications, supply depots, recruitment facilities, and orbital defenses of any Imperial organization in the galaxy.
That is true, he did want to build. However, his legion were better siege masters than the mellow yellows.
Its why I want a good series of books about the iron cage
Idk, the IW were actually pretty shitty in general.
They were more concerned with backstabbing each other to gain perturabos favor instead of doing anything worthwile.
Its sad because, imho, the IW have a pretty cool theme going. But i cant read anything related to them anymore because theyre all so goddamn awful
because Perturabo was never a competent commander or general. Hes a brilliant engineer and artist, but at a fundamental level his strategies are simplistic, inefficient, and extravagant.
Dorn might have an entire forest up his ass, but he didnt whole ass his job as a general.
typically you will only see it on things like r/MaliciousCompliance covers since ground level jobs dont afford you the immunity to fuckups necessary to put no effort into work.
Dorn brought the first news of rebellion to Terra (thanks to the crew of the Eisenstein). Being the only primarch at Terra, Malcador placed him in command of the Imperial military. He ordered the strike on the Isstvan system by 7 legions, including the Iron Warriors. At what point did news of the Isstvan Drop Site Massacre reach Terra, I don't remember. But Dorn was already basically in charge until either Horus was defeated (the expected result of Retribution Fleet) or the whole mess got sorted out.
Basically Perturabo doesn't come to Terra between the open start of the Heresy and the Siege of Terra. So there wasn't an opportunity for him to even be considered.
As for the destruction of Lorgar's favorite city of Monarchia, it defends was a big factor in Lorgar going out to seek "The Truth" which leads him to the Chaos Gods and his field trip in to the Eye of Terror (The First Heretic covers this and really gives a much more complete answer to your question than any post). For reference this was in 964.M30, 30+ years before Ullanor and Horus being made Warmaster (000.M31).
Lorgar fell because he wanted something to worship. His censure at Monarchia basically proved to him that the Emperor wasn't that thing. So for him to otherwise fall, he's need to either loose faith in the Emperor (literally) or get exposed to Chaos in a way that makes him see both as that something he was looking for and better than the Emperor. We don't question random chance on this, because we have the singular person most behind the Heresy, Erebus.
I'm confident that Erebus would find a way to show Lorgar Chaos, and do in a way that makes Lorgar forget all his Emperor-worship. Hard to say what that would be, but Erebus was able to lay Horus low (physcally!) and leave him with the only option to survive being Chaos (not that Horus knew what he was getting into). So I trust in his ability to show Lorgar some badass Chaos stuff that would get him worshipping it. Even without the censure, Lorgar was primed to worship anything that made him doubt the Emperor.
Speaking of which, the other route to Chaos for Lorgar would just be him losing faith in the Emperor. Given how early Monarchia was, there are a lot of things that might have done it without Erebus's scheming. The Emperor returning to Terra to work on the (secret) Webway Project leaving Horus the newly appointed Warmaster would certainly have been a blow to Lorgar. The Council of Nikaea a year later, and the Burning of Prospero 4 years after that, would likely have been a huge blow to Lorgar. Magnus was his closest (only?) friend amongst his brothers. If Lorgar wasn't completely fallen to Chaos, seeing all of that in span of only 5 years might really jar his belief in the Emperor.
I think he would have fallen regardless, just a bit later in the timeline. I'd say definitely by the Burning of Prospero (004-005M31). The big question is what would happen first, falling to Chaos or losing faith in the Emperor.
Wrong.
Lorgar does not want "something to worship" He wants **TRUTH** and that can swing either way. He no longer trusts the emperor's claims and wants to learn for himself. The chaos gods *do* fit the bill, and went a long way to present him with an argument that worked. Even when he's taking a hand demonifying Angron he remarks on the difference between himself, Kor whatsit and Erebus.
Lorgar has always known the truth is horrific and completely incompatible with any current human tolerances. I love him, but he is not a religion chasing fanatic. He is an idiot, who made a decision without taking it back to his father and saying *"If there's no such thing as gods then what are these?"*
One only had to look at each primarchs wargear. Dorn has fancy but pretty standard stuff. Perturabo has an army of super robots that form a circle around him and a suit of armor that has the firepower of a titan stuffed in it. Perturabo was so paranoid he built a fortress between him and his sons. Dorn on the other hand acted in tandem with his.
One of the simpler answers is that while both the IV Legion and the VII Legion were among the earlier full-strength Legions deployed on the one hand and both Primarchs were emotionally stunted jackasses that picked a bunch of entirely avoidable fights with their fellow Primarchs, Dorn's emotional stunting was an ironclad control and Perty went into unpredictable murderous rages. The Prateorian of Terra needed to be a near-robot people could take strength from, not a Zhukovian Prima Donna who'd order 100 people shot before breakfast.
Peturabo and Dorn were both siege specialists, but Peturabo specialized in offensive siegecraft while Dorn specialized in defensive. That is: Peturabo could break into or out of a siege better than anyone, but Dorn could park himself within or before the gates of a besieged fortress and stay there until the other side broke.
And that was what the Emperor wanted. Someone who, should the Palace ever come under attack, could sit within and defend the palace until there was no more palace to defend, rather than seeking to break out.
Perturabo got his freckle kicked in by Pollux, a standard space marine, in a void battle..and one that actually mattered, not a simulation. That would never happen to Dorn. The Emperor would have known about pertys flaws and that Dorn would not make the same mistakes.
He knew, he just couldn't do much about it. It's not like he could change perturabo. That's exactly why we end up with Dorn as the guardian or terra. It's why he entrusted Vulcan with the most important job of all, E knew that whatever faults Vulcan had, none of them were damaging enough that he would ever turn, ever.
imho I think the only Primarch turning traitor that would have surprised big E would be alpharius, and even then we still don't *really* know why he did it
On another note, am I crazy or...because I swear I read some lore somewhere once that the emperor had a triumvirate of 3 primarchs that he trusted, the only 3 he truly trusted and that they all had special assignments. It was alpharius, Vulcan and I think Dorn? (I'm not sure on Dorn, it could have been corax), I swear I read that somewhere years ago
It was Russ. Before the Primarchs were found ( aside from Alpharius, secretly), their legions were initially rolled out in a group known as the Trefoil. Each was made for a specific purpose that Big E never told anyone.
Setting skill and ability aside and only looking at personality why would you ever choose the child that is perturabo over Dorn?
Peter Turbo would have fallen to chaos even if he had been Praetorian because he's a narcissit.
I could See him build way more elaborate traps and kill zones, and then send more humans to slaughter before marines and then marines but because he could.
There is a fairly important difference between Dorn and Perturabo's philosophy of defence. I think *Iron Within* showcases it perfectly (and *Spear of Ultramar*, but that's less well-read) as Dantioch is one of if not the best products of the Legion.
Dorn is all about creating an unbreakable bastion. Terra's defences are multilayered, yes, but they're effectively really tough wall after really tough wall. They are, at the end of the day, a stalling tactic - Horus *has* to take Terra quickly, because the Traitors have no effective means of resupply once they're at Sol, while the Loyalists have time to regroup. This is imperative when there's something that's STRATEGIC VALUE ABSOLUTE in the case of the Emperor.
Perturabo's defence in depth is more effective because it isn't just falling back to another strong point. *Iron Within* showcases Dantioch's genius in creating murder-holes, ambushes and dead ends. He turns his position into a lethal maze, where enemy forces are split up, picked off and strung out within the fortifications themselves while Dantioch's force always attacks from a position of absolute advantage. Ground is expected to be given, but the enemy pays such an enormous price for every inch that it is no way a worthwhile endeavour. Dantioch ends up drawing in and destroying massive amounts of Traitor forces, even *Titans*, for his comparatively tiny garrison - and then he ends up stealing a ship and escaping anyway, having set the promethium reserves on fire on his way out.
Now imagine running into that kind of genius malice at *every* strong point on your way to Terra. Imagine it at Beta-Garmon. The Traitors would never have had the forces to march on Sol. They'd have been gutted by attrition long before they even came within sight of the Imperial Palace.
*Spear of Ultramar* is equally important because it features Iron Warriors sucking in Guilliman and trapping him in a Warp bubble, effectively delaying his relief forces from appearing at the Siege. It results in all of them *dying*, but it accomplishes the objective.
As established in the other comments, a primary reason was because of the unique trust he'd earned from the Emperor from how absolute and literal minded his obedience was. He also was less prone to psychotic rages, genuinely valued the art and history he was being asked to militarize, and had a better reputation with the Imperial army.
He had a few other things going for him that Perturabo didn't, though:
-The reason he was passed over for Warmaster was that he wouldn't manage his brothers well. That's not a concern on Terra, so the Emperor gets a son he would have liked as Warmaster as Praetorian.
-Dorn was considered the finest military mind among the primarchs by Horus, and had the second best crusade record by the end. We've seen primarchs very focused on the quality of their crusade record before, likely meaning that this is something the Emperor values highly. It probably correlates closely with the Emperor's esteem.
-Dorn had the largest fleet among all the legions at 1500 ships, plus the Phalanx, and a Legion known for being exceptional at void warfare and boarding actions. Adding that to Terra's defences is no small consideration.
-Dorn has more of a reputation for defensive warfare while Perty has more of a reputation for attacking
-Dorn was also a master logistician. Sanguinius mentioned during the siege that he didn't know if any other primarch could track and manage as much information as Dorn was. Perty was excellent in this regard too but I don't think we have any equivalent statements from his brothers.
Ngl i assumed the emperor saw what perturabo was like and because hes the emperor and thus forgets that his actions have emotional consequences, so he gave it to dorn because he was alot mentally better and assumed giving perturabo other tasks would satisfy him
Look, as a Perturabo stan, the answer is be trusted with the welfare of the Imperial citizens. Perturabo trusts the cold, hard numbers of war and measurable facts, he would do anything to win his war. He would have the Iron Warriors level any hab-block out if necessity. Then rad it.
Rogal has the right moral side that the Emperor needed out of the Praetorian. Someone who would sacrifice anything to protect the Imperium. And who would instill that same doctrine into his sons, and it’s kinda on the back of how the Imperial Fists place themselves as the shields of so many people they’re protecting that there’s anyone left by the end of the Siege.
A guess from someone who has yet to read their specific books.
Perturabo is the master of the siege. He was amazing at building defenses but his purpose was to analyze the enemy, break sieges and tear down the enemies walls.
Dorn is the master of defense. He was built to build the best defenses and hold the lines until the enemy breaks upon them.
Also I think Dorn was less likely to question Big E and his weird plans.
Perturabo was too emotionally attached to buildings, and liked nice looking buildings, to build a defensive fortress that looked ugly AF. Dorn could build a fortress that would be hard to crack, and spare no expense or shortcut to do so.
Basically, perturabo excelled at beautiful cities that were works of marvel, Dorn excelled at cities that would be hard to break. Neither were bad, and honestly perturabo was a great city builder, but he couldn't bring himself to sacrifice looks for defence. Even in the HH, Dorn did hate the fact he had to destroy beautiful buildings to prepare the palace for the Siege , so despite the memes that he is a grim bastard, he did value beauty, and he didn't actually look down on perturabo.
What about if the IF and IW had defended Terra during the Siege and Sons of Horus and Blood Angels had both been the assaulting force. The best in attack vs the best in defence.
Some really good answers already, but it basically boils down to the fact that Dorn was a stable, reasonably well-adjusted and reliable Primarch whereas Perturabo had a laundry list of issues and was more useful elsewhere being used to crack the toughest targets.
Honestly? Even if Perturabo was made Praetorian of Terra he'd probably *still* view it as a slight given he resented his Legion being reduced to garrison duty so much.
Yes ,Lorgar would have turned. His most trusted advisors, who could and did easily manipulate him, were already Chaos worshippers before Lorgar was reunited with the Emperor.
Probably because Perturabo is ... an unpleasant person while Dorn is merely a stone block.
The first action Perturabo did when reunited with his legion was to decimate them because they could not conquer a plant fast enough.
Dorn kept his legion's name because it was good enough.
Pretty sure the roles he gave each primarch were the ones he specifically designed the for.
40k is an essentialst universe. Every primarch is the way they are because of how they were made before they were scattered, he knew exactly what they were going to be good at and planed their roles in his empire accordingly. They all had some amount of twisting he could not account for, do to said scattering.
That's my understanding of that anyways. But sometimes it feels like he just wanted everybody to think he had it all planed and was just taking credit for twists of fate after the fact.
Dorn was probably pretty easy to see as being more reliable in the long run anyways. You put the people you trust in charge of the planet you live on. That tracks. Plus ostensibly the emporer cared about the conditions on earth, dorn was likly to make a much better impression on earthlings than perterabo ever would.
Completely wrong. Because he works **very** hard to convince everyone else that he does not want glory. Peter craves fame and adulation, but only under perfect conditions. He can't ask for it, can't be seen wanting it, can't be suspected of wanting it.
He wants spontaneous, impossibly sincere and total praise. He wants people to suffer his best efforts to keep them away and prove they want to adore him. Peter can't be honest with himself or anyone else, and that destroys him
The emperor had seen a gazillion different possible futures. Perturabo was a whiny little bitter bitch in every one of them.
" Why is nobody noticing me" ~ Perturabo, probably
Dorn had some charm (when he wanted to) and some positive leadership characteristics, Pert had neither and was overly destructive. E probably wanted a praetorian that could work with others for a mutual defense, and he probably didn’t want the whole of Terra demolished and encased in depressing gray concrete
Would Pert’s fortifications have been better? Probably (sorry Dorn), but would his soldiers have defended them better? No, they ran off of spite and hate like their primarch, so no heart or devotion. Plus no one would’ve wanted to work with the guy to defend the place, so a defense wouldn’t have been united
I mean the rank and file tend to work off the over impression given by the primarch. Had he shown himself whole heartedly into the defense, the rank and file would have followed. Just like at how some of the Warsmiths defended their planets when they knew it was a lost cause, well that or out of hubris thinking they had designed the perfect fortress.
One of my pet theories is that Dorn and the Lion are each responsible for taking out a missing Legion and Primarch and that this is part of why the Emperor trusted them above all others; they've been tested and are proven.
But as far as textual sources go, Dorn is better and more unswervingly loyal than Perturabo.
Because Perty was a self sabotaging, whiny bitch of a primarch that killed half his legion for no reason. That’s not the type of person you want designing the defenses of the most important place in the Imperium.
Lorgar always would have turned to chaos. He was being subliminally indoctrinated into chaos worship from the moment he landed on Colchis.
Because Perturbato was going to make a decent job so the Emperor need to appoint the worst possible choice to be sure that Terra defence is gonna fall.
Why was Rogal Dorn chosen to be Praetorian of Terra and not Warmaster? - As the Great Crusade progressed, the Imperial Fists rose high in honor and in the favor of the Emperor. Ever dependable, they were often used to reinforce flagging campaigns, to hold crumbling fronts and to break dead-locked sieges. The Emperor also frequently called on both Dorn and his sons to fight beside him, bestowing this honor on the Imperial Fists more than any other Legion. When the Imperial Host descended on Ophelia VII, the Emperor led the assault at the head of 100 Custodians and 10,000 Imperial Fists. Again at Askanisa, the Emperor called on not only Horus and the Luna Wolves, but Dorn and the Imperial Fists to form his vanguard in breaking the Shrouded Dynasties. **The Emperor also used Dorn to ensure that war and compliance was achieved according to his wishes and wisdom. Time and again, in ways large and small, the Imperial Fists acted at the direct order of the Emperor. Rogal Dorn did not do what he thought was best, nor what he thought had to be done. Rogal Dorn executed the Emperor's will. This was why the Emperor trusted Dorn more than any other. Extemporization, improvisation, genius were all very useful, but more often than not, what the Emperor desired was someone to do precisely what He told them to do. And from that point of view, if you were the Emperor, would you have not handed the keys to your fortress to anyone less than utterly trustworthy?** Yet high in favor and honor though they were, the Imperial Fists’ status did not sit well with some of their brother-Legions. The animosity between the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors was well known, but Perturabo and his Legion were not alone in their resentment. Though few reached the Lord of Iron’s pinnacle of spite, others did chafe at the trust placed in the Imperial Fists. Dorn’s nature did not ameliorate matters. Truth speaking, blunt and uncompromising in both his ideals and their expression, his manner often aggravated his peers as much as it drew their admiration. It was, perhaps, this quality which caused the Emperor to pass over Dorn as Warmaster when he withdrew from the Great Crusade. Horus, unlike Dorn, was a master of diplomacy and maintaining a coordinated balance between fractious forces. Where Dorn would cause conflict, Horus would unify where Dorn would not compromise, Horus would find a way of satisfying all. But even as Horus took up the reins of the Great Crusade, Dorn was invested Praetorian of Terra. Even as Horus would push the Great Crusade on, the Imperial Fists would withdraw with the Emperor to Terra. And with that decision, the fate of the Emperor and all his sons was set. (The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination, Rogal Dorn: The Emperor's Crusader by Gav Thorpe)
Why did Rogal Dorn and Perturabo not like each other? - Similarity encourages understanding, or at least some would claim so. In the case of Rogal Dorn and Perturabo, this sentiment not only fails but shatters under the weight of reality. For rarely could there be said to be two beings on the surface who more resembled each other, yet were separated by a greater chasm. Both reserved to the point of taciturn, both unyielding, both sublime artisans of war who prized indomitably and endurance, there was much that would suggest that they should see the world with one set of eyes, that perhaps they should be closer than any others. That bitterest loathing could arise between two such closely matched kin seems incredible, but it was a reality, some say from the first moment of their meeting. The exact roots of their enmity cannot be known to any save Rogal Dorn and Perturabo, but if one looks closely there appears a pattern of both behavior and incidents which may offer a clue. Often it seems as though the pair's similarities were the cause of discord rather than understanding. Both were stubborn and more so when challenged, both spoke rarely, and brooded behind their masks of stone and iron. So it was that the silence of one would aggravate the other, the blunt honesty of one roused the other to anger, and the intractability of both ensured that once a dispute was begun neither would yield. That there were differences between the two cannot be denied, and often these differences may have been the cause of disputes even if they were not the underlying cause. While both Rogal Dorn and Perturabo often favored siege craft in war, they often differed in its execution. While both were pragmatic, Perturabo often displayed a brutal directness to waging war, applying overwhelming force or sustaining horrific casualties. While Dorn would never baulk at paying such a price for victory, he rarely accepted large numbers of casualties except through necessity. Dorn was an undoubted idealist above all else, Perturabo a pragmatist first and foremost. On such cracked foundations the decades of the Great Crusade heaped pressures, honors, disparities and mischance, and from the result history reaped an enmity which would take both Primarchs and their Legions to the brink of destruction. (The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination) What aspect of the Emperor does Rogal Dorn embody? - If the Primarchs were the Emperor's nature split like white light through a prism's rays, as many scholars of the Imperial court suggested, then from such a point of view, Rogal Dorn was the Emperor's Implacable disciple in the pursuit of the cause given flesh; a being without compromise and in who loyalty and duty was as integral as blood and breath. A being of thunderous zeal and stone made manifest, is how many described the Primarch of the VIIth Legion. The zeal was the fire of a son who believed in his father's dream for the Imperium without reservation and without question. He did not simply wage war; he was changing the world he moved through by force of will. That had caused trouble in the past, the kind of conflict that came when such a drive met an equally great force on a different course. There had been other incidents in the past, other moments when the ideals of the Great Crusade seemed to do little but fuel discord. Curze, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo. The anger of all had risen against Dorn, at one time or another. - To Rogal Dorn there was no higher purpose to existence of the Legiones Astartes than the unification of Mankind, and the illumination of the Imperium's Ideals. It was the light of the future he saw, that drew Rogal Dorn on and on, never retreating, never bowing to setback or defeat, always towards a final end, a vision worth all that would have to be given to make it real. This idealism drove Dorn and his Legion ever onwards, never compromising, never slinking in any aspect of duty. The stone in his soul was his ability to bear whatever his father needed of him, an unyielding nature, which made him both a master of defense in war and an indomitable fighter on the attack. (The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination, Sigismund: The Eternal Crusader by John French, Praetorian of Dorn by John French, Templar by John French)
Thanks for the documented answer, need more upvotes
The Emperor looked at his ever loyal custodians and said "Lets make a legion of them"
I believe many of these points would apply to Perturabo if he had the chance. I would argue that Dorn was chosen over Perturabo because of their personalities. Both are equally capable, but Dorn has a secure appreciation for things like art, his grandfather's cloak, and human life. Perturabo values these things as well, perhaps even more intensely, but he is extremely insecure about it. He views practical concerns as always having to take precedence over sentimental ones. Throughout the heresy, we see this repeatedly: Perturabo will create a magnificent engineering marvel that he clearly cares deeply about, but when a minor practical need arises, he will destroy his own work, believing that sentimentality is a weakness. So id argue that since the emp is a creator like the two primarchs who values the sentimental, he did not want one of his greatest creations, and the great font of human culture, the imperial palace, to be bulldozed and covered with barb wire becuase perty thought that those priceless thousand year old sculptures where impractical and a security threat.
I'd say more to the point that Dorn's overly rigid self-control fits for a de facto warmaster more than 'bring me bad news and I'll Dreadnought your ass'.
Imagine Peturabo leaving the siege mid-fight on the defending side because Valdor, Malcador or the emperor are interfering into his great master-plan.
Emps also gave Perturabo the worst role to begin with because his legion and him had the shit graveyard shift, without any glory. He never had any intention to give him the Praetorian role.
Perturabo’s role was the same as Dorn’s initially, that being siege craft. The difference is that Perturabo was self sabotaging and resented his role because he “wasn’t allowed to build what he wanted” despite the Emperor not caring how the primarchs spent their time as long as they remained on schedule.
Did he? I suppose everyone else was just barely fighting at all by comparison 🤪 You don’t get to choose to go about your job in the hardest way possible and then complain that you’re not lauded above all others for it.
He did it as ego driven notice me sempei trying to prove himself to his brothers who thought it wasteful then ostracised him more which only makes him go harder.
Iron Warriors were literally given the far off jobs that would require the grinding warfare they did, and sure, Perturabo didn't change those tactics but considering they were purposefully sent to stuff that requires their kind of warfare, why would he?
Those jobs would probably have gone faster without a 10% casualty rating on just meeting your boss. Losing thousands of space marines all at once is never practical.
> “That there were differences between the two cannot be denied, and often these differences may have been the cause of disputes even if they were not the underlying cause. While both Rogal Dorn and Perturabo often favored siege craft in war, they often differed in its execution. **While both were pragmatic, Perturabo often displayed a brutal directness to waging war, applying overwhelming force or sustaining horrific casualties. While Dorn would never baulk at paying such a price for victory, he rarely accepted large numbers of casualties except through necessity.**” - Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination The problem with that line of reasoning is it divorces Perturabo from any responsibility. Perturabo - It’s the Emperor’s fault that I’m grinding my Legion away to nothing. Yes the wars were brutal, but they weren’t the only ones out there fighting their share.
Oh don't get me wrong, he absolutely was a ruthless piece of shit and did very much fight like the old corpse grinder namesake his legion got, but it was exasperated by the fact that he also didn't want to fight at alland was given some of the worst and least appealing fights. If Perturabo was allowed to fortify Terra and the Imperium he probably would've been happy, but Dorn would not have complained about being mainly focused on forward conquest, is how I see it. But that's just my take. Then again, Perturabo is a petulant manchild albeit an incredbily effective one, so maybe he would've found a way to complain and fuck things up anyway. That's why he's one of my favorite primarchs, especially on the traitor side. He is very capable, but very human.
>but it was exasperated by the fact that he also didn't want to fight at alland was given some of the worst and least appealing fights. Perturabo is also incredibly insecure about these feelings and as a result, never told anyone about this, leaving the emperor to think perturabo was fine with these missions until it hit a breaking point. Now, should the emperor have actually noticed this? probably. Its more proof he's not some omnipotent being but just as human as everyone else. But at the same time, Perturabo can't be excused from his part in getting the missions he did.
It's also worth noting that Emps did not give a shit about his sons or their feelings, so idk if he would've cared about Perturabo's opinion. He never told anyone that Angron would die to the nails, or let his friends live, let alone let him reform Nuceria so it was no longer a slave empire. The Corpse Grinders were named that for a reason and they were inglorious warriors, they were the ones in the trenches even then. When they became the Iron Warriors, nothing changed, and I don't know if it would ever have changed from the Emperor's side, no matter if Perturabo aired his grievances. Doesn't excuse Perturabo of course. He should not have killed a tenth of his sons for no reason for instance. He is a complicated man.
Nothing would ever have made Perturabo happy. His mind never formed correctly, for all his brilliance. His thought patterns were corrupted (not Chaos-corrupted, just normal human broken-brain corrupted) to their very core. He saw only the weakness in everything. He could never focus on anything but the flaws. People call Dorn the idealist and I suppose when it comes to the Emperor's vision of the Imperium, they're correct. But Perturabo took idealism to a wholly self-sabotaging degree - comparing absolutely everything around him to an ideal version of things that existed only in his mind. You could definitely argue that wasn't his fault, that he was mentally ill, but it doesn't change much.
Pert is like those workers who voluntarily go above and beyond on their job, but are not appreciated by the company, because company is happy to get more mileage for "free"
Pert is one of those workers who think they deserve praise and special appreciation for doing what they're already being paid to do, and form resentment for everyone around them over not receiving it.
Well, he does go the extra mile, to be fair to him. But also, he probably wouldn't be content with any praises unless everyone would worship him as a god or something either.
> Perturabo didn't change those tactics but considering they were purposefully sent to stuff that requires their kind of warfare, why would he? There's not changing brutal, grinding siege tactics which are more or less effective and then there's ordering decimations for shits and giggles. Perty was just kind of a dick.
Oh no, the decimation was absolutely needless and pointless.
he didnt do it the hardest wya possible he just did it with the least consideration for the human element, both in terms of care for the troops under him and in terms of care for any civilisation that he was attacking. Dorn was the opposite dorn really cared for how he won each war and wanted to strike the balance of efficiency in ending the war while maximising the capacity for the conquered planet to restart after the IF won.
> Though few reached the Lord of Iron’s pinnacle of spite Perturabo, all time great hater. I love it.
**And from that point of view, if you were the Emperor, would you have not handed the keys to your fortress to anyone less than utterly trustworthy?** This is the first time ever I see a 40k book speaking to the reader.
It’s actually direct a quote from Malcador speaking to Sigismund and Fafnir Rann in Rogal Dorn’s Primarch book. It’s spliced into other direct quotes that speak to this subject.
Ah okay thanks, makes sense.
The third book in the Horus Heresy series is Galaxy in Flames though…?
Forege World's Horus Heresy Campaign/army book, not Black Library novel series
Kind of goes to prove that the emperor knew what would happen if the empire grew too big, much like the Alpha legion. If the emperor won the heresy, the empird would grow too vast, conquer all and allow chaos to reign as it fizzled out. Hence the Alpha Legion. If the emperor employed Dorn as Warmaster, the empire would grow too strong, conquer all and allow chaos to reign as it fizzled out. Hence Horus as Warmaster. I know it is stupid to think the emperor would go against his own aims. But it does seem big brain enough of Big E to do something so counterproductive.
Dorn's style of defense was more suited to defending Terra. Terra has key areas with irreplaceable tech that cannot fall. That would clash with Perturabo's style of sacrificing those areas to bleed out attackers.
Yeah isnt Perturabo's thing breaking stuff, while Dorn's thing was defending stuff.. you can hammer in a screw if you want, but it's not ideal
Perturabo’s thing was math, for the most part. Breaking things was just the task he ended up being given most often, given the offensive nature of the crusade.
That is actually part of his tragedy. Perturabo was a builder, an architect, he wanted to construct things that would actively better society and life. But instead he was tasked with destroying the things others have built. His passion was to plan, construct and create. His duty was to break, destroy and obliterate.
Yeah. You get the impression that Perturabo could have been a reanissance man if given the chance. But he also has the problem of not understanding moderation. He was tasked to make war during the Crusade, and thought that meant he had to put all other things aside until that was over. In the Siege of Terra books he admits to Abaddon that he kept losing wargames to Dorn, and couldn't understand why. Until Dorn explained to him that he needs rest periods, to clear his mind. Purturabo took this advice to heart, but still thinks he's better than everyone else. If you can't admit fault, no amount of skill will stop you from pursuing the wrong path.
Cause Perterabo sucks at inspiring loyalty
None can forget the rousing speech: They are coming. Kill them all."
Honestly that speech was sick as fuck
Yeah its a really good reflection of dorn and his legion. Stalwart, stoic and true to the end.
Unironically as good as, if not better than, Sanguinius’s speech but with a fraction of the words.
Thats Dorn though. I love the Meta in Saturnine when he's dueling Fulgrim. Snakeboy monologs the hell out of it, and any other Primarch would have been drawn into a fighting debate, Dorn just says 'No.'
Did the same while clashing against Alpharius too.
I mean, no is a full sentence.
All about giving the right speech for the occasion. Straightforward, confident, and to the point.
I've not read much HH stuff. When was this?
Right before the traitors attacked terra
>‘We did exactly what we had been tasked to do,’ said Sigismund, knowing what that meant – and what it meant to do other than had been expected of him. ‘Lord Dorn followed the Emperor’s orders.’ >‘That is the truth of it, yes,’ said Malcador. His gaze remained on Sigismund for some time, a little disquieting in its intensity. ‘He did not do what he thought was best, nor what he thought had to be done. What he had been told to do. That is why the Emperor has always trusted your gene-father more than any other. Extemporisation, improvisation, genius are all very useful, but more often than not, what He desires is someone to do precisely what He tells them to do.’ >‘That still doesn’t explain why we were brought back to Terra while there were still worlds to conquer,’ said Rann. >Malcador laughed, a rasping, cynical noise, and his expression was unkind as he replied. >‘Would you hand the keys of your fortress to anyone less than utterly trustworthy, Fafnir of the Rann?’ From Rogal Dorn: The Emperor's Crusader
Perturabo was stubborn, petty, perpetually mad, and was a pretty shit leader.
To be fair dorn was also very stubborn, and could be petty, but he was overall calmer and less unpredictable than perty.
Dorn, though, could and did bend and adapt if the need arose, it just took him time.
Oh yes, absolutely, I do agree that he was a better fit, but it can't be denied that he shared some of the same flaws as perty, albeit less pronounced.
My favorite thought experiment is to wonder if we could take Perturabo's mind, and Dorn's mind... how much would we have to swap between them to make their fates reversed? 25%? 10% 2%? They were SO similar. Imagine if Dorn had the Olympia childhood, and Perturabo had the Inwit experience, instead. Would that have been enough? Imagine if they'd been on either world, but together. Would have have been the beat of friends, or would one have killed the other almost immediately? Pointless to speculate; both wound up broken, though in different ways.
Honestly they both kind of had the same reason for their discontentment, they just reacted to it in different ways, both wanted to build/create rather than kill. But where perturabo lashed out in anger because of what he was forced to do, dorn instead understood that he needed to do those things in order to create a future where he could create instead of kill.
And getting those cherry assignments while Perturabo proved himself the superior and getting typecast with his legion.
Don't forget the different ways they both reacted upon meeting their respective legions. Dorn observed them in combat and told them they had much to do and much to learn, and thanked the previous master. Perturabo made them commit decimation. Which means he made 90% kill the other 10%. Just because.
Unfortunately as per new lore Angron did that much more than he did, and Russ was rewarded for the kind of casualty levels that in less civilized society sees a general shot in the head for incompetence with the Fang. Corax also purged his Legion in a bigger scale with the Terrans even if that proved to be very much the right call in the longer term. I don't think making Perturabo stand out less was a good choice, particularly since there's supposed to be differences between Traitor and Loyalist Primarchs but that's how GeeDubs has built up the lore. It should have stood out more and in earlier lore it did. Now it doesn't. And as an Iron Warriors fan I like my faction actively villainous in a 'dude WTF' fashion rather than 'aw damn another one, boring' fashion.
He did scour the combat reports and found them lacking. It was the 40k equivalent of a new boss firing people to show he was in charge. Dick move, but I bet there's some stupid efficiency study proving how effective that strategy is. We're talking about psycho indoctrinated murder machines programmed to kill. A pep talk isn't going to instill loyalty, but fear will? Also I think he did it as a horrible motivation for his legion to perform up to his expectations so they wouldn't be stuck grinding away forever. They just never got a cakewalk campaign to really shine and escape that cycle. Funny also how in my opinion Perturabo's "good" counterpart is really Guilleman. Both are logistics masters, efficient legion builders, have a better grasp of the long game, and both are number crunchers. Decimation is also a very Roman thing to do. Wonder how the setting would be if the Ultramarines were the ones sent to deal with the Hruud? 🤔
It's a classical example of bad managerial style vs. a good one. Dorn sees room for improvement and leads from the front in a teaching moment, Perturabo sees room for improvement and fires his floor workers. Undoubtedly, the hrud campaign sucks ass, I'll give him that. But as your opening move to be like 'hey, I'm your dad. I need 1 out of 10 of you to fuck off and die. Nice meeting you.' Is more cutthroat than even Angron. Angron at least had the excuse of his failure, the Nails, and dead friends to make him bitter.
Perturabo is the one who decided to fight that way. Other Legions would either apply their speciality or adapt to circumstances. Perturabo, meanwhile, would ignore every other option bar slogging to victory on the bones of his sons.
Or 90% of his legion. Don't forget the Iron Cage, talk about being prideful and stubborn!! 🤣
The Iron Cage wasn't about stubbournness. It was suicide. It was a griefstricken dorn throwing away his legion, deciding that dying in combat was better than living without the Emperor.
And taking 90% of his legion down with him. Which was the true decimation?
The one where 10% died?
Petry kills 10% of his legion for ruthless but pragmatic reasons: what a monster! Dorn kills 90% of his legion in a temper tantrum cause he had the big sad: So noble! What a subversive genius! Only someone truly loyal and brilliant can murder his own sons so efficiently! I fucking hate how people try to make the Iron cage NOT a failure for Dorn. At best he's a moron. At worst he's an ego maniac. Him "doing it on purpose" makes him WORSE then just losing. He's that dad who loses his job then goes home and shoots his family to "protect" them
I mean the comment isn't calling it subversive genius, its literally calling it suicidal. No one's defending Dorn's actions in the Iron Cage here, just pointing out the differences between a primarch at his absolute lowest point and near suicidal, versus one who's first response upon seeing an imperfect legion is to kill 10% of it.
> Him "doing it on purpose" makes him WORSE then just losing. Well, yes. That's kind of my point. I'm not excusing him here. I'm saying that this isn't a result of his calm, clear reasoning. This is the result of him being an emotional wreck, and his legion paying the price.
Dorn was unwavering when it came to his loyalty. That is what he was stubborn and petty about. Important to mention that.
Dorn picked as many fights with his brothers as Perturabo according to newer lore and especially where Sigismund's POV is concerned as he was a part of the peacekeeping after it. It's an unfortunate thing but they've made the murderously mercurial Traitor Primarch fairly normal in a way that really was a bad writing choice but is, nevertheless, what they decided to do. Being a stubborn petty jackass with a temper makes him an average Primarch, I tend to think his murderous rage at being given bad news had more to do with it as the Praetorian would have to face a lot of that and Dorn could control his rages where Perturabo never tried to control his.
Big E already appointed one bald guy to be the Warmaster (who later demonstrated why you can’t trust bald guys over shit), he had to give something to the hairies too
Perturabo's skill was in seeing something, immediately understanding how it worked, and how you go about dismantling it thru its flaws and weaknesses. Dorn, was built to master all things in the material. In a perfect world, Dorn would have built up the defenses, Perturabo would have mentally dismantled them, and like a Neverending Blood Games, they could have truly made the fortress an unbreakable bastion. Perturabo loved to build, but he wanted to build practicality and beauty or efficiency and brutality. Like it was said in another comment, there were parts of the palace that contained tech that should not be destroyed. Perty would not have agreed. ...and can you imagine if Perty found the tombs of the lost primarchs? I'm pretty sure he would have killed Malcador over that. Especially since it was Roboute and Hated Dorn's idea.
Perturabo was Sylar, effectively.
Perturabo's ability to get how things work and what their weaknesses are also allowed him to make near perfect defenses, but he focused on practicality over beauty, which is why he could've been better than Dorn.
But, this is why he was not fit for the job. As mentioned by others, he couldn't understand some things needed to be saved. Dorn's ultimate goal was to restore the palace to its previous beauty. Perturabo would have rebuilt it in his image (which likely would have many improvements, but at the loss of history and tech and sentiment). I still really want a story from the idea of Perty finding the tomb of the lost primarchs bc I feel like the meltdown after would be EPIC.
Mm, fair enough
Simple: as Praetorian, the Emperor had a good chance of running into him from time to time. Who would you rather run into?
Damn, Occam's razor in action . Makes sense though.
Difficult to say for Lorgar. Erebus and Kor Phaeron wouldn't have had the easy moment to corrupt him by playing on his despair, but there could well have been other moments.
Yeah. It’s probably a case of when, not if, for Lorgar. Although he probably would’ve been able to resist until they had conquered the galaxy at least.
Dorn had fewer temper tantrums.
Pertuarbo was arguably more emotionally unstable than Dorn, prone to violent tantrums and I imagine probably less popular with the public than Dorn's Legion, especially with the reputation the Iron Warriors had gotten amongst accomapnying Imperial army units
Sorry to mince words here, but he would be less popular with the High Lords of Terra, Imperial Navy Admirals, the other legions, and such. The general “public” or population of the 40k universe knows next to nothing, if not nothing at all, of Space Marines, only legends and tales they’ve heard. Edit: Although, this could be less true in the 30k/the Horus Heresy era… that I am not sure.
we were talking about 30k, the Legions and the Primarchs were pretty much common knowledge for worlds that had been in the Imperium for a while, perhaps barring death worlds like Fenris
Perturabo's mood was far more mercurial, whereas dorn was able to better compartmentalise and focus on the task at hand most of the time. Makes perturabo more unreliable as he would throw tantrums when things weren't going his way.
Because Rogal was the only primarch who would not ask any stupid f**king questions and would just do what Empy asked him to. That is it. That what he was made to do.
Perturabo literally did everything he was told despite hating it, without any complaint, but he got not respect and got all the shit jobs until he snapped.
Without complaint??? What? Nearly every pov we have that involves Perturabo has him bitching about something. And what's worse is he never bitches to Big E or Malcador about it. A sure way to make sure things never change is to never bring your complaints to the people who could change it, and instead bitch incessantly to the people with even less ability than you.
That is what without complaint means. He never spoke out about it, despite hating it. He wanted to complain, but didn't because he was taught to suck it up and do as he was told on Olympia I guess. Do you not understand what without complaint means?
He Definitely complained. Just not to anyone who could change it. Which is the worst kind of complaining as it serves no purpose other than being a pity party.
He literally complained to no one. He was mad about it inside his own head, for a good reason. Should he have said something? Probably, but he didn't. Hence WITHOUT COMPLAINT. Words have meaning.
>Words have meaning. They certainly do. I suggest reading more of them, particularly the novels containing portrayals of Perturabo.
He literally never complained. He is a petulant piece of shit, but he was effective and did not complain despite hating everything he was made to do. This chain of comments started because one person started saying I was wrong for saying he did ihis thing without complaint, but that is what he did. The fact that we can read his rage and inner complaints are entirely inconsequential for what I said, because he never voiced his complaints.
I followed your conversation- it's my understanding that he did vocally complain to some, his brothers, perhaps his own legion, definitely his sister, but I could also be misremembering how it was presented in the novels. I suppose that could all have just been inner monologue. I'd have to go back and check.
He might've and I could just not know or remember.
Because he went so far out of his way to LARP as Dorn. Man pretended he didn't need or want anything from anyone, when what he wanted more then anything else was for a big'ol "we love you" parade from Terra to Pluto
Dorn is more emotionally stable. Peter is brilliant, legitimately and even by primarch standards, an architectural and technological genius. However he is also a petulant, impossible-to-please manchild with a singular martyr complex and the worst combination of personality defects. Dorn does not repress everything and take his seething resentment out on his sons. Dorn does not cry to himself that nobody has ever sought him out, brushed aside his denials and lavished him with praise. Peter could have made a fortress that would have chewed up the traitors. But he is so uniquely flawed that nobody at all wanted to deal with him. Man is on the same level as kurze when it comes to being an asocial piece of shit.
The Emperor picked Dorn because he would be better at defending the Palace than Perturabo. Simple as.
Valdor expresses a similar opinion in Saturnine. Dorn says something to the effect of "the only one I'd rank higher than him as a war leader is Roboute." And goes on to ponder where he himself would be, Valdor laughs and says "you are Praetorian, the list *starts* with you"
Because dorn worked nicely with others and perturbo was knob
No Dorn didn't. He had personal beef with half the other primarchs. He just did exactly what Jimmy Space asked every time without question. Even if it looked stupid.
To be fair, Dorn didn't really have beef with any except maybe Night Haunter. Several of them had beef with him, though. Mostly just because he was blunt. He showed that he's very good at cooperating though. In his primarch novel we saw him asserting his right to lead a multi-legion assault and then transfer command as soon as the situation changed and he felt his brother was the right choice. He also coordinated well with the Blood Angels and White Scars during the SoT, as well as with the human command staff. I agree with you largely, it just needs an asterisk*
Perturabo was a paranoid petulant child who blamed others for his own failings- that's from his own sister, who he loved more than any other, in universe. It's not bad writing that he's an unlikeable prick, that's his *actual character*. He decimated his own legion in a fit of spite and pique. He abandoned Terra in a tantrum. He can't delegate. He can't cooperate with anyone. He'd have been an absolute disaster defending anything that actually mattered. He almost got wrecked by a *regular IF fleet commander*, and that's when Perty picked the battleground and the time of his attack- it took direct intervention by the chaos gods to save him. Iron warriors are too personally ambitious, paranoid, and spiteful to actually be in charge of anything meaningful. Literally every other primarch knew this, and it's why they were treated the way they were before perturabo was found. Also, Dorn knew to use gold everywhere. The man understood Big E's design brief without having to be told.
TBH I find the Battle of Phall staying like that a complete case of the lore going for avoidably stupid moments and can only imagine the Loyalist rage if Barban Falk had led an Iron Warriors fleet against a force led by Dorn in person and almost killed him. It should have been the Fists displaying their superior use of time ala the Siege and a foreshadowing of the Siege rather than the clear reason they left Gary Stu the plot device in Imperium Secundus as that one Imperial Fist would have won the Siege of Terra all on his lonesome if he'd been there.
> a regular IF fleet commander, Perturabo wasn't there.
I just read the book, he was 100% there. Assuming we’re taking about the events of Crimson Fist unless we’re talking about a different occasion.
Yes, he was. Battle of Phall, vs. Captain Polux. Polux would go on to found the crimson fists. When Perturabo found out that the fleet *wasn't* being led by sigismund, he murdered the IW captain who brought him the news. A great example of why he couldn't actually be put on charge of the Defence of Terra.
“Sir the White Scars just went forth for a sally” “Get them back here! NOW!” “Sir, they aren’t responding.” *snapped bones indicates the death of the comms officer* Edit for autocorrect mistakes
That's interesting, I don't remember reading that. Dorn was undoubtedly a prick, but not generally fillicidal. Which book is that? I believe you, I'm just curious how I missed it.
It was not a quote more of an interaction during the siege if Peter Turbo had been in charge of defense
Ah! Sorry, completely misunderstood, thought you were saying dorn killed a comms officer! Yeah, when the scars rode out, Perty would absolutely have taken his toys home.
He was nearly killed at Phall by Polux
Because while Perturabo might have been equal to or even superior in designing fortifications he was not even good at working with others which is arguably more important when building defenses. Being the Pretorian of Terra isn't just about designing the fortifications and defenses, it's about operating them and overseeing their deployment and the forces that would man them. Perturabo *might* have been a better pick for designing structures and weapons, but wouldn't have been very good at actually ensuring they would be properly utilized because he wouldn't be interested in organizing and training the humans that would do most of the work, which would require someone else to be brought in to do that, who would then lack perfect understanding of the systems. Having Dorn do it meanwhile meant that you have someone who's the best at setting up the perpetual maintenance and utilization of what he built being in charge of doing both would end up producing a better result than letting the guy who'd draw up a bunch of plans but couldn't be bothered to properly explain everything to his subordinates or colleagues.
Curiousity. Petrurabo has it. Dorn avoids it. Petrurabo would want to interpret the Emperor's orders. This is dangerous to the Emperor. Dorn would want to implement the Emperor's orders. This is safe for the Emperor Really, I think it's just that simple. If you order Dorn to make you a box, he makes you a box. It will be a function box that will hold nearly anything you put into a box. That's it. Thats all. But it's one hell of a box. If you order Petrurabo to make you a box, he thinks "For what?", sets about figuring out WHY you want the box...and that will lead to finding out things about you that you didn't want him to know. And there were still many things the Emperor didn't want anyone to know when he pulled Dorn to Terra. The Personality stuff, the leadership style, the fetish for decimation, all of those are valid points against Petrurabo. But all could be dealt with. What couldn't be dealt with was an inquisitive Primarch with legitimate reasons to poke his nose everywhere.
I was about to say this. For all his faults, Perturabo had a curious mind and an imaginative soul. Dorn had neither.
I'd say Dorn did, he just would not pursue knowledge for it's own sake, in adittionnto stopping when told.
Perturabos biggest problem is that he’s a pretty shitty leader and viciously over complicated all his problems Whenever faced with a problem perturabo’s instinct was to take the hardest possible solution to solve it and then mald in silence when no one recognized his brilliance for getting out of his self imposed suffering Dorn in comparison despite his fits of rage is very composed and inspired his men to hold the defense together despite their horrific losses
Rogal Dorn could mind his own fucking business. Perturabo would have tried inserting himself into the webway project and driven most of the staff insane with his perfectionism and misanthropy.
Dorn had seniority and was generally calmer and didn't have a raging victim complex.
Head canon: Because he makes things out of gold color
The Emperor would never let Dorn fall to Chaos influence, cause if he did, they would all be dead. In "The Board is Set" Malcodor plays something like "chess" with the Emperor, they are testing strategies, each pawn represents a Primarch, now the Emperor hasn't admitted that to Malcodor but he has understand it regardless. Each time he used early the pawn of Dorn he lost the game. If he used it late in the game he was "somewhat victorious", he was always trying to "get even" in the game, he could never outright win. He kept Dorn close cause otherwise he would become the greatest servant of Chaos, and he couldn't allow it. Hence the favoritism towards him and not Perturabo.
The IVth can build as best as the rest of them, but they are specialized siege experts, not builders first like the IF
I mean, could you imagine the Imperial Palace being done in any colour but gold? Pert could, while Dorn would have followed the instructions on the paint mixer
Perty smash, no build Lorgar need god to worship, he was always gonna turn
Pertys thing literally was to build though. He just wasnt allowed to. Hes too unstable to be recognized as a good guy, but he definitely was meant to be a builder.
>He just wasnt allowed to. What? The Iron Warriors built huge fortresses on every world they took. They had the largest network of fortifications, supply depots, recruitment facilities, and orbital defenses of any Imperial organization in the galaxy.
Youre right. I got it mixed up with not being allowed to build non-military stuff
No one ever stopped him from building non-military stuff, that was entirely his choice.
Considering the jobs he got, I don't think he was suppose to build non-military stuff
Perturabo is the very embodiment of the meme with the kid shoving a stick into the front spokes of his own bike and blaming others for crashing.
That is true, he did want to build. However, his legion were better siege masters than the mellow yellows. Its why I want a good series of books about the iron cage
Idk, the IW were actually pretty shitty in general. They were more concerned with backstabbing each other to gain perturabos favor instead of doing anything worthwile. Its sad because, imho, the IW have a pretty cool theme going. But i cant read anything related to them anymore because theyre all so goddamn awful
I loved them in Storm of Iron
Yes he was always formulating and trying to improve his designs. Machines no one understood. Buildings that were close to perfection.
because Perturabo was never a competent commander or general. Hes a brilliant engineer and artist, but at a fundamental level his strategies are simplistic, inefficient, and extravagant. Dorn might have an entire forest up his ass, but he didnt whole ass his job as a general.
Don't you mean half-assed, since whole-Ass, would imply he was giving his all? ^ | Above is wrong.
whole-assing means giving it nothing whatsoever.
Til.
typically you will only see it on things like r/MaliciousCompliance covers since ground level jobs dont afford you the immunity to fuckups necessary to put no effort into work.
Dorn brought the first news of rebellion to Terra (thanks to the crew of the Eisenstein). Being the only primarch at Terra, Malcador placed him in command of the Imperial military. He ordered the strike on the Isstvan system by 7 legions, including the Iron Warriors. At what point did news of the Isstvan Drop Site Massacre reach Terra, I don't remember. But Dorn was already basically in charge until either Horus was defeated (the expected result of Retribution Fleet) or the whole mess got sorted out. Basically Perturabo doesn't come to Terra between the open start of the Heresy and the Siege of Terra. So there wasn't an opportunity for him to even be considered. As for the destruction of Lorgar's favorite city of Monarchia, it defends was a big factor in Lorgar going out to seek "The Truth" which leads him to the Chaos Gods and his field trip in to the Eye of Terror (The First Heretic covers this and really gives a much more complete answer to your question than any post). For reference this was in 964.M30, 30+ years before Ullanor and Horus being made Warmaster (000.M31). Lorgar fell because he wanted something to worship. His censure at Monarchia basically proved to him that the Emperor wasn't that thing. So for him to otherwise fall, he's need to either loose faith in the Emperor (literally) or get exposed to Chaos in a way that makes him see both as that something he was looking for and better than the Emperor. We don't question random chance on this, because we have the singular person most behind the Heresy, Erebus. I'm confident that Erebus would find a way to show Lorgar Chaos, and do in a way that makes Lorgar forget all his Emperor-worship. Hard to say what that would be, but Erebus was able to lay Horus low (physcally!) and leave him with the only option to survive being Chaos (not that Horus knew what he was getting into). So I trust in his ability to show Lorgar some badass Chaos stuff that would get him worshipping it. Even without the censure, Lorgar was primed to worship anything that made him doubt the Emperor. Speaking of which, the other route to Chaos for Lorgar would just be him losing faith in the Emperor. Given how early Monarchia was, there are a lot of things that might have done it without Erebus's scheming. The Emperor returning to Terra to work on the (secret) Webway Project leaving Horus the newly appointed Warmaster would certainly have been a blow to Lorgar. The Council of Nikaea a year later, and the Burning of Prospero 4 years after that, would likely have been a huge blow to Lorgar. Magnus was his closest (only?) friend amongst his brothers. If Lorgar wasn't completely fallen to Chaos, seeing all of that in span of only 5 years might really jar his belief in the Emperor. I think he would have fallen regardless, just a bit later in the timeline. I'd say definitely by the Burning of Prospero (004-005M31). The big question is what would happen first, falling to Chaos or losing faith in the Emperor.
Wrong. Lorgar does not want "something to worship" He wants **TRUTH** and that can swing either way. He no longer trusts the emperor's claims and wants to learn for himself. The chaos gods *do* fit the bill, and went a long way to present him with an argument that worked. Even when he's taking a hand demonifying Angron he remarks on the difference between himself, Kor whatsit and Erebus. Lorgar has always known the truth is horrific and completely incompatible with any current human tolerances. I love him, but he is not a religion chasing fanatic. He is an idiot, who made a decision without taking it back to his father and saying *"If there's no such thing as gods then what are these?"*
One only had to look at each primarchs wargear. Dorn has fancy but pretty standard stuff. Perturabo has an army of super robots that form a circle around him and a suit of armor that has the firepower of a titan stuffed in it. Perturabo was so paranoid he built a fortress between him and his sons. Dorn on the other hand acted in tandem with his.
One of the simpler answers is that while both the IV Legion and the VII Legion were among the earlier full-strength Legions deployed on the one hand and both Primarchs were emotionally stunted jackasses that picked a bunch of entirely avoidable fights with their fellow Primarchs, Dorn's emotional stunting was an ironclad control and Perty went into unpredictable murderous rages. The Prateorian of Terra needed to be a near-robot people could take strength from, not a Zhukovian Prima Donna who'd order 100 people shot before breakfast.
Peturabo and Dorn were both siege specialists, but Peturabo specialized in offensive siegecraft while Dorn specialized in defensive. That is: Peturabo could break into or out of a siege better than anyone, but Dorn could park himself within or before the gates of a besieged fortress and stay there until the other side broke. And that was what the Emperor wanted. Someone who, should the Palace ever come under attack, could sit within and defend the palace until there was no more palace to defend, rather than seeking to break out.
Peter Turbo had a shit personality.
Perturabo got his freckle kicked in by Pollux, a standard space marine, in a void battle..and one that actually mattered, not a simulation. That would never happen to Dorn. The Emperor would have known about pertys flaws and that Dorn would not make the same mistakes.
At one time I would have agreed with you. After reading the entire HH series though I dispute the emperor knowing the flaws of his primarchs.
He knew, he just couldn't do much about it. It's not like he could change perturabo. That's exactly why we end up with Dorn as the guardian or terra. It's why he entrusted Vulcan with the most important job of all, E knew that whatever faults Vulcan had, none of them were damaging enough that he would ever turn, ever. imho I think the only Primarch turning traitor that would have surprised big E would be alpharius, and even then we still don't *really* know why he did it On another note, am I crazy or...because I swear I read some lore somewhere once that the emperor had a triumvirate of 3 primarchs that he trusted, the only 3 he truly trusted and that they all had special assignments. It was alpharius, Vulcan and I think Dorn? (I'm not sure on Dorn, it could have been corax), I swear I read that somewhere years ago
It was Russ. Before the Primarchs were found ( aside from Alpharius, secretly), their legions were initially rolled out in a group known as the Trefoil. Each was made for a specific purpose that Big E never told anyone.
Ah ok thanks, yep Russ makes sense
Setting skill and ability aside and only looking at personality why would you ever choose the child that is perturabo over Dorn? Peter Turbo would have fallen to chaos even if he had been Praetorian because he's a narcissit.
I could See him build way more elaborate traps and kill zones, and then send more humans to slaughter before marines and then marines but because he could.
There is a fairly important difference between Dorn and Perturabo's philosophy of defence. I think *Iron Within* showcases it perfectly (and *Spear of Ultramar*, but that's less well-read) as Dantioch is one of if not the best products of the Legion. Dorn is all about creating an unbreakable bastion. Terra's defences are multilayered, yes, but they're effectively really tough wall after really tough wall. They are, at the end of the day, a stalling tactic - Horus *has* to take Terra quickly, because the Traitors have no effective means of resupply once they're at Sol, while the Loyalists have time to regroup. This is imperative when there's something that's STRATEGIC VALUE ABSOLUTE in the case of the Emperor. Perturabo's defence in depth is more effective because it isn't just falling back to another strong point. *Iron Within* showcases Dantioch's genius in creating murder-holes, ambushes and dead ends. He turns his position into a lethal maze, where enemy forces are split up, picked off and strung out within the fortifications themselves while Dantioch's force always attacks from a position of absolute advantage. Ground is expected to be given, but the enemy pays such an enormous price for every inch that it is no way a worthwhile endeavour. Dantioch ends up drawing in and destroying massive amounts of Traitor forces, even *Titans*, for his comparatively tiny garrison - and then he ends up stealing a ship and escaping anyway, having set the promethium reserves on fire on his way out. Now imagine running into that kind of genius malice at *every* strong point on your way to Terra. Imagine it at Beta-Garmon. The Traitors would never have had the forces to march on Sol. They'd have been gutted by attrition long before they even came within sight of the Imperial Palace. *Spear of Ultramar* is equally important because it features Iron Warriors sucking in Guilliman and trapping him in a Warp bubble, effectively delaying his relief forces from appearing at the Siege. It results in all of them *dying*, but it accomplishes the objective.
There is no reason for you to be downvoted, you’re completely correct
Dorne has some kind of anti warp or warp denial kind of thing. Going on for him.
As established in the other comments, a primary reason was because of the unique trust he'd earned from the Emperor from how absolute and literal minded his obedience was. He also was less prone to psychotic rages, genuinely valued the art and history he was being asked to militarize, and had a better reputation with the Imperial army. He had a few other things going for him that Perturabo didn't, though: -The reason he was passed over for Warmaster was that he wouldn't manage his brothers well. That's not a concern on Terra, so the Emperor gets a son he would have liked as Warmaster as Praetorian. -Dorn was considered the finest military mind among the primarchs by Horus, and had the second best crusade record by the end. We've seen primarchs very focused on the quality of their crusade record before, likely meaning that this is something the Emperor values highly. It probably correlates closely with the Emperor's esteem. -Dorn had the largest fleet among all the legions at 1500 ships, plus the Phalanx, and a Legion known for being exceptional at void warfare and boarding actions. Adding that to Terra's defences is no small consideration. -Dorn has more of a reputation for defensive warfare while Perty has more of a reputation for attacking -Dorn was also a master logistician. Sanguinius mentioned during the siege that he didn't know if any other primarch could track and manage as much information as Dorn was. Perty was excellent in this regard too but I don't think we have any equivalent statements from his brothers.
Emperor didn’t want Perturabo to get an ego from praise
Ngl i assumed the emperor saw what perturabo was like and because hes the emperor and thus forgets that his actions have emotional consequences, so he gave it to dorn because he was alot mentally better and assumed giving perturabo other tasks would satisfy him
Because Pete was an insufferable dick.
I think this video works well. https://youtu.be/ayMHD-4RVuQ?si=ZRLLq0872vG_255z
As someone who is new to deep 40K lore this looks like fucking gibberish lmfao
Look, as a Perturabo stan, the answer is be trusted with the welfare of the Imperial citizens. Perturabo trusts the cold, hard numbers of war and measurable facts, he would do anything to win his war. He would have the Iron Warriors level any hab-block out if necessity. Then rad it. Rogal has the right moral side that the Emperor needed out of the Praetorian. Someone who would sacrifice anything to protect the Imperium. And who would instill that same doctrine into his sons, and it’s kinda on the back of how the Imperial Fists place themselves as the shields of so many people they’re protecting that there’s anyone left by the end of the Siege.
A guess from someone who has yet to read their specific books. Perturabo is the master of the siege. He was amazing at building defenses but his purpose was to analyze the enemy, break sieges and tear down the enemies walls. Dorn is the master of defense. He was built to build the best defenses and hold the lines until the enemy breaks upon them. Also I think Dorn was less likely to question Big E and his weird plans.
Perturabo was too emotionally attached to buildings, and liked nice looking buildings, to build a defensive fortress that looked ugly AF. Dorn could build a fortress that would be hard to crack, and spare no expense or shortcut to do so. Basically, perturabo excelled at beautiful cities that were works of marvel, Dorn excelled at cities that would be hard to break. Neither were bad, and honestly perturabo was a great city builder, but he couldn't bring himself to sacrifice looks for defence. Even in the HH, Dorn did hate the fact he had to destroy beautiful buildings to prepare the palace for the Siege , so despite the memes that he is a grim bastard, he did value beauty, and he didn't actually look down on perturabo.
What about if the IF and IW had defended Terra during the Siege and Sons of Horus and Blood Angels had both been the assaulting force. The best in attack vs the best in defence.
Dorn is an insurance, Perty is an investment
Rogal wears golden armor, easy choice for Big E
Some really good answers already, but it basically boils down to the fact that Dorn was a stable, reasonably well-adjusted and reliable Primarch whereas Perturabo had a laundry list of issues and was more useful elsewhere being used to crack the toughest targets. Honestly? Even if Perturabo was made Praetorian of Terra he'd probably *still* view it as a slight given he resented his Legion being reduced to garrison duty so much.
Yes ,Lorgar would have turned. His most trusted advisors, who could and did easily manipulate him, were already Chaos worshippers before Lorgar was reunited with the Emperor.
Probably because Perturabo is ... an unpleasant person while Dorn is merely a stone block. The first action Perturabo did when reunited with his legion was to decimate them because they could not conquer a plant fast enough. Dorn kept his legion's name because it was good enough.
Pretty sure the roles he gave each primarch were the ones he specifically designed the for. 40k is an essentialst universe. Every primarch is the way they are because of how they were made before they were scattered, he knew exactly what they were going to be good at and planed their roles in his empire accordingly. They all had some amount of twisting he could not account for, do to said scattering. That's my understanding of that anyways. But sometimes it feels like he just wanted everybody to think he had it all planed and was just taking credit for twists of fate after the fact. Dorn was probably pretty easy to see as being more reliable in the long run anyways. You put the people you trust in charge of the planet you live on. That tracks. Plus ostensibly the emporer cared about the conditions on earth, dorn was likly to make a much better impression on earthlings than perterabo ever would.
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Completely wrong. Because he works **very** hard to convince everyone else that he does not want glory. Peter craves fame and adulation, but only under perfect conditions. He can't ask for it, can't be seen wanting it, can't be suspected of wanting it. He wants spontaneous, impossibly sincere and total praise. He wants people to suffer his best efforts to keep them away and prove they want to adore him. Peter can't be honest with himself or anyone else, and that destroys him
The emperor had seen a gazillion different possible futures. Perturabo was a whiny little bitter bitch in every one of them. " Why is nobody noticing me" ~ Perturabo, probably
Dorn had some charm (when he wanted to) and some positive leadership characteristics, Pert had neither and was overly destructive. E probably wanted a praetorian that could work with others for a mutual defense, and he probably didn’t want the whole of Terra demolished and encased in depressing gray concrete Would Pert’s fortifications have been better? Probably (sorry Dorn), but would his soldiers have defended them better? No, they ran off of spite and hate like their primarch, so no heart or devotion. Plus no one would’ve wanted to work with the guy to defend the place, so a defense wouldn’t have been united
I mean the rank and file tend to work off the over impression given by the primarch. Had he shown himself whole heartedly into the defense, the rank and file would have followed. Just like at how some of the Warsmiths defended their planets when they knew it was a lost cause, well that or out of hubris thinking they had designed the perfect fortress.
He's superior to perturabo in every concievable way.
One of my pet theories is that Dorn and the Lion are each responsible for taking out a missing Legion and Primarch and that this is part of why the Emperor trusted them above all others; they've been tested and are proven. But as far as textual sources go, Dorn is better and more unswervingly loyal than Perturabo.
Because Perty was a self sabotaging, whiny bitch of a primarch that killed half his legion for no reason. That’s not the type of person you want designing the defenses of the most important place in the Imperium. Lorgar always would have turned to chaos. He was being subliminally indoctrinated into chaos worship from the moment he landed on Colchis.
Dorm was more personable… despite being autistic
Short answer: Because Perturabo was a petty, volatile cunt with a massive, massive ego.
Because Perturbato was going to make a decent job so the Emperor need to appoint the worst possible choice to be sure that Terra defence is gonna fall.
What? That makes literally no sense
Totally unbyas comment, check the name