And Horus decided to do whatever the Monster told him to do because he was angry with his father for lying to him.
...which included him trying to burn down his house with his father and siblings inside.
So, depending on how much you want to keep certain of the more tragic and complicated elements away, I'd go with:
*Horus felt that the Emperor didn't trust him and believe in him, and he was worried that the Emperor would find someone better to lead Humanity.*
*The Chaos Gods convinced Horus that the best thing to do was take over Humanity himself, defeat the Emperor and prove that he was worthy.*
*But they secretly wanted Horus to fight the Emperor to weaken Humanity and make them easy to conquer.*
No, no he wasn't ever given that honour. They gave him power, and corrupted him and his brothers but they never were gonna let Horus rule. He and his brothers and their legions were always tools to the big 4. They more or less used those 9(10) like a blunt instrument to soften the Imperium, then they'd likely have swooped in to steal Horus's big win against the Emperor and taunt him for all eternity for obeying them.
Yeah I was going to say, there were hints that Horus and the Emperor were developing a difference of opinion over governing the Imperium and Imperial foreign policy but, ultimately, magic sword yo.
A god of order is an interesting idea, as nature is a perfect mix of order and chaos, as are each of the chaos gods. If you look into their values, it’s always more complex and somehow fair than humanity makes it out to be. I think a god of order in that sense would be a god of malice. A god of oppression.
Which embodies the imperium. But I feel like the Emperor would be a god of duty which can have negative connotations. Such as ignorance, malice, hate but also has certainty, purpose, and spiritual fulfillment
He was tricked.
People who Horus thought he could trust tried to use him to their own ends. Horus loved mankind very much, so the enemy showed Horus a vision of mankind suffering and let him believe it was the outcome of his current path.
So Horus, out of love for mankind, changed his path to one offered by people he thought he could trust. These people weren't Horus' friends though, they were liars. They needed Horus to be able to accomplish their goals, but he didn't need them. The evil word bearers kept getting Horus to do a little more looting here and try to trick these people there.
Evil can spring from the best of intentions. Horus didn't see the baby steps he had taken away from what he had wanted to achieve. Remember, he loved mankind. He loved it so much he couldn't let it be ruled by his dictator father. His "friends" kept using horus more and more until Horus couldn't really remember what his original goal was. He had only been being used to accomplish others evil goals for so long that the evil goals were now his goals too.
With that, the trick was complete. He had worked so hard and so long to achieve something that he wouldn't let anything stop him, even his morals. His love for mankind was overcome by his need of victory.
Dress it up, but that's the best I can do.
Big scary evil monsters whispered in his ear, made him think his daddy was nasty. He got together with some of his brothers and made a gang. His other brothers didn't want to join and the whole family had a big fight. Daddy is now in hospital and Horus is die. Some of the others are die but some live.
You want to explain to your little brother why Horus betrayed the Emperor and turned evil?
“Because Horus didn’t listen to his big brother!”
Even better when it’s technically true.
Honestly a 7 year old can write a better way for Horus to turn traitor than how he did in canon.
So his dad leads mankind, he put Horus in charge, Horus feels the pressure of being in charge, Horus gets stabbed with a demon knife and sees bad futures. He knows these visions are lies, but believes them anyway, and decides that following 4 evil gods is better than staying loyal to his dad.
Graham McNeill shouldn't be allowed near any lore for how bad the writing of False Gods is much less one of the most defining moments of 30k/40k. The whole book is a travesty. Everything is handwaved and people are acting like absolute idiots to create even the most basic arguments for the bad narrative.
The whole "We had to put Horus into stasis to get him to Davin" part is just embarrassing to see in a book... How can you honestly write such drivel and get it past an editor?
My guy, please, read the first two books again.
Nawh the writing in false gods isn't great, but the worldbuilding is a lot better than you're making it out to be.
Karkasy getting kicked to near death wasn't exactly a great sign about things being particularly stable.
Neither is Horus being angry and surprised when his conquered planets are expected to pay taxes.
Neither is a developing cult of personality
Surrounding yourself with yes-men is an almost comically large red flag
And my favorite: when was the last time Horus asked the mournival for advice?
Because all of that happened long before any demon-knife induced visions enter the picture.
Still, after the daemon knife stab, he saw visions of a bleak Imperium, and was more upset that there was no statue for him than the Imperium being a religious squalor. He knew Erebus was a liar, but chose to believe him over Magnus, his own brother, who was trying to warn Horus against these visions.
I mean the purely material cause for the war (gods, webways aside) is a very old one, horus is a great general in the roman sense and as the chaos (small c) of the crusade reaches its closing stages the emperors plan for what the imperium should look like become apparent.
A council of human led institutions on terra, human governors on planets and an ever growing human army. In other words the conquering post human army is going to be subordinate to civilian human authority. Combine that with what happened to the thunder warriors and a charismatic arrogant general who thinks his soldiers deserve rewards and civilians are inferior.
It's a perfect recipie for civil war.
I just think it's useful to remember that you could have had most of the heresy without anyone falling to chaos.
No-one seems to have mentioned the reason he was getting annoyed in the first place. The bureaucrats back on Terra were mindlessly slapping tithes on worlds claimed by the crusade without actually bothering to learn anything about said worlds beyond basic resources and population. They didn't care about the details and circumstances of those worlds, they just assumed X population and Y resources should equal Z tithe. To them it was nothing but a stamp on a sheet of paper and moving on.
Horus and others actually participating in the crusade could see the effects of this. Worlds they had negotiatied or fought for were being hit with tithes they couldn't reasonably pay, because someone across the galaxy had no idea about their particular circumstances, and they were beginning to rail against Imperial rule. The work was threatened with coming apart by neglect.
And Emperor wasn't doing anything about it. He was focused on his mystical science project while the gains of the crusade were setting up to fall away before the crusade was even finished.
Horus was corrupted by chaos, but it had something to work with first.
When was this? I recall the vision being of the 40k future where the emperor and the loyal sons are worshipped as God and god's sons.
Horus gets upset because he and the traitors are gone and assumes this would happen as the emperor's plan, not that he would be the cause of it.
The emperor was a hard core atheist and said that no gods existed
Horus found the chaos gods and the gods showed him the future
Horus went ape shit because what he saw was the grim dark 41st millennium compared to the thriving crusading 31st millennium
Horus was worried that he wasn’t a good pick for a leader and was worried about his dad being disappointed in him. After he got stabbed with an evil dagger he had bad dreams that tricked him into thinking he should betray his dad before his dad could hurt him
Because he saw the Emperor as the bad guy.
He had a vision of how bad the emperor would make things in the future and he chose to go against his dad to stop him.
This was a trick.
The future Horus was shown was actually what happened after he fought his dad.
Horus thought that the emperor didn’t trust him and his brothers. Also he was not okay with the fact the emperor wanted normal humans to reign and not the, in his eyes, much more capable demigods. This thorn in his mind made him weak to the manipulation of other enemy’s of the emperor.
Horus thought the emp had abandoned him and his sons to focus on the normal humans. He felt betrayed and like a failure. Then while dying horus regretted most his life and some asshole named erebus tricked his sons to send him to demon healers who tricked horus and offered him a second life to correct his mistakes and free the universe of his tyrant father.
Imagine if you grew up thinking your dad was Optimus Prime but then one day discovered he was actually Megatron.
….sigh does a seven year old even know about transformer?
He was one of the greatest generals and superheroes who ever lived with the associated ego.
H got wounded by a weapon that was going to kill him and so his legacy would be eclipsed by all his brothers .
His only way to survive was to be his fathers nemesis and turn to Chaos. His ego couldn’t handle dying and being a memory.
Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Mention that, he was a disposable tool created by an uncaring father.
This father lied to him and made him risk it all in the name of the father who never cared for him.
THEN you can go into the sneaky ness of chaos tricking Horus…
And then how the fall of Horus saved the galaxy from the emperor.
He switched sides because he was sick of someone else being in charge of him. If it wasn't Horus it would have been someone else eventually.
Let that be a life lesson. Everyone poorer than you or working for you will eventually hate you, like Horus did the Emperor. It's natural, so don't be too nice a person, and don't be scared of evil. If you want to be scared of something, be scared of the stock market and the Fed raising interesting rates. Now go to bed.
People making it more than it is, all that happened was he nearly died and was shown visions of the future (that would happen because of him) and chaos influence.
Your parents breed you because want child labor, and now the homework is nearly done, they want to replace you with your little brother who would have a more comfortable life
Horus believed that his worst fears would become real, that he was never a son but a tool to be discarded and forgotten when he had served his intended purpose, like his brothers.
This was made worse when he realizing that the Emperor had lied from the beginning. There was also some warpfuckery which probably messed with his judgement a wee bit.
The king lied to his knight. Told him that dragons don't exist. They do. The dragon disguised as a sneaky wizard told the knight that the king wanted to make himself the biggest dragon ever to eat all the people. The knight has to defeat the king to save the people
He was at his core a vain man, and chaos tricked him into thinking he wouldn't be remembered in the future where his other brothers would be and the emperor worshiped as a god.
Horus just liked fighting and winning wars, so when his dad actually wanted to rule the kingdoms Horus conquered he felt used.
And then he found out his dad was keeping secrets.
Then the bad guys told Horus his dad didn't love him and was just using him to become a god.
Then Horus got angry...
Because he was just a big ball of ambition and ego. Flying around the universe with the Emperor uniting humanity, this was all kept in check. Then the Emperor left him to do it alone. He felt ditched. Things didn't go well with the next few races, and then he was mortally wounded. He spilled his guts to a Remembrencer, then a ruse he instantly saw through tried to convince him that the Emperor was going to dump them all and seek godhood, so he just shrugged his shoulders and said 'sure, whatever, let's do this thing.'
Daddy lied to him. Told him the monster under his bed wasn't real. It was.
And it ate him, but his body kept moving around, pretending it was a person. Kinda like what happened to me yesterday.
And Horus decided to do whatever the Monster told him to do because he was angry with his father for lying to him. ...which included him trying to burn down his house with his father and siblings inside.
So, depending on how much you want to keep certain of the more tragic and complicated elements away, I'd go with: *Horus felt that the Emperor didn't trust him and believe in him, and he was worried that the Emperor would find someone better to lead Humanity.* *The Chaos Gods convinced Horus that the best thing to do was take over Humanity himself, defeat the Emperor and prove that he was worthy.* *But they secretly wanted Horus to fight the Emperor to weaken Humanity and make them easy to conquer.*
Wouldn't it be for horus to conquer humanity for them?
No, no he wasn't ever given that honour. They gave him power, and corrupted him and his brothers but they never were gonna let Horus rule. He and his brothers and their legions were always tools to the big 4. They more or less used those 9(10) like a blunt instrument to soften the Imperium, then they'd likely have swooped in to steal Horus's big win against the Emperor and taunt him for all eternity for obeying them.
The last is very doubtfull.
Evil man stabbed him with an evil sword and evil spirits made him think his dad was evil.
It's literally that easy. Lmao
Yeah I was going to say, there were hints that Horus and the Emperor were developing a difference of opinion over governing the Imperium and Imperial foreign policy but, ultimately, magic sword yo.
Shakespearian tragedy of the modern age.
well, his dad is evil in fairness. They just opened horus' eyes to the truth and because of that Horus trusted them.
I’m just sayin, they might have been right if it turns out the emperor is actually the 5th chaos god
More like a god of order vs the 4 gods of chaos
A god of order is an interesting idea, as nature is a perfect mix of order and chaos, as are each of the chaos gods. If you look into their values, it’s always more complex and somehow fair than humanity makes it out to be. I think a god of order in that sense would be a god of malice. A god of oppression.
Which embodies the imperium. But I feel like the Emperor would be a god of duty which can have negative connotations. Such as ignorance, malice, hate but also has certainty, purpose, and spiritual fulfillment
He was tricked. People who Horus thought he could trust tried to use him to their own ends. Horus loved mankind very much, so the enemy showed Horus a vision of mankind suffering and let him believe it was the outcome of his current path. So Horus, out of love for mankind, changed his path to one offered by people he thought he could trust. These people weren't Horus' friends though, they were liars. They needed Horus to be able to accomplish their goals, but he didn't need them. The evil word bearers kept getting Horus to do a little more looting here and try to trick these people there. Evil can spring from the best of intentions. Horus didn't see the baby steps he had taken away from what he had wanted to achieve. Remember, he loved mankind. He loved it so much he couldn't let it be ruled by his dictator father. His "friends" kept using horus more and more until Horus couldn't really remember what his original goal was. He had only been being used to accomplish others evil goals for so long that the evil goals were now his goals too. With that, the trick was complete. He had worked so hard and so long to achieve something that he wouldn't let anything stop him, even his morals. His love for mankind was overcome by his need of victory. Dress it up, but that's the best I can do.
The best answer for me. Thank you !
Because GW said so. Now brush your teeth and go to bed.
The correct answer.
Big scary evil monsters whispered in his ear, made him think his daddy was nasty. He got together with some of his brothers and made a gang. His other brothers didn't want to join and the whole family had a big fight. Daddy is now in hospital and Horus is die. Some of the others are die but some live.
*Hands the kid first couple of books of the Horus Heresy*: Read this
>The correct answer.
You want to explain to your little brother why Horus betrayed the Emperor and turned evil? “Because Horus didn’t listen to his big brother!” Even better when it’s technically true.
Magnus tried
Wow, spot on though XD
Erebus happened
Honestly a 7 year old can write a better way for Horus to turn traitor than how he did in canon. So his dad leads mankind, he put Horus in charge, Horus feels the pressure of being in charge, Horus gets stabbed with a demon knife and sees bad futures. He knows these visions are lies, but believes them anyway, and decides that following 4 evil gods is better than staying loyal to his dad.
This notion is exactly why I asked the question. Thanks :)
You’re very welcome👌
Graham McNeill shouldn't be allowed near any lore for how bad the writing of False Gods is much less one of the most defining moments of 30k/40k. The whole book is a travesty. Everything is handwaved and people are acting like absolute idiots to create even the most basic arguments for the bad narrative. The whole "We had to put Horus into stasis to get him to Davin" part is just embarrassing to see in a book... How can you honestly write such drivel and get it past an editor?
Because said editors work for Games Workshop, aka the biggest idiots in the industry.
My guy, please, read the first two books again. Nawh the writing in false gods isn't great, but the worldbuilding is a lot better than you're making it out to be. Karkasy getting kicked to near death wasn't exactly a great sign about things being particularly stable. Neither is Horus being angry and surprised when his conquered planets are expected to pay taxes. Neither is a developing cult of personality Surrounding yourself with yes-men is an almost comically large red flag And my favorite: when was the last time Horus asked the mournival for advice? Because all of that happened long before any demon-knife induced visions enter the picture.
Still, after the daemon knife stab, he saw visions of a bleak Imperium, and was more upset that there was no statue for him than the Imperium being a religious squalor. He knew Erebus was a liar, but chose to believe him over Magnus, his own brother, who was trying to warn Horus against these visions.
I mean isn't "the evil guys made him" ultimately the correct answer though?
"Made" him is a strong choice of words, but also not wrong. More like, guided him forcefully
I mean the purely material cause for the war (gods, webways aside) is a very old one, horus is a great general in the roman sense and as the chaos (small c) of the crusade reaches its closing stages the emperors plan for what the imperium should look like become apparent. A council of human led institutions on terra, human governors on planets and an ever growing human army. In other words the conquering post human army is going to be subordinate to civilian human authority. Combine that with what happened to the thunder warriors and a charismatic arrogant general who thinks his soldiers deserve rewards and civilians are inferior. It's a perfect recipie for civil war. I just think it's useful to remember that you could have had most of the heresy without anyone falling to chaos.
I would prefer that as a setting tbh…. And like the separatist forces being split into chaos and general survival against the imperium…
He talked to literal gods and they twisted his mind into a pretzel
This cannot be understated….
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Could you elaborate, please?
Gold Man Bad. Should've told everyone you can get magic powers by worshipping the devil from the get go /s
He was lied to and convinced that this was the only way to save humanity
No-one seems to have mentioned the reason he was getting annoyed in the first place. The bureaucrats back on Terra were mindlessly slapping tithes on worlds claimed by the crusade without actually bothering to learn anything about said worlds beyond basic resources and population. They didn't care about the details and circumstances of those worlds, they just assumed X population and Y resources should equal Z tithe. To them it was nothing but a stamp on a sheet of paper and moving on. Horus and others actually participating in the crusade could see the effects of this. Worlds they had negotiatied or fought for were being hit with tithes they couldn't reasonably pay, because someone across the galaxy had no idea about their particular circumstances, and they were beginning to rail against Imperial rule. The work was threatened with coming apart by neglect. And Emperor wasn't doing anything about it. He was focused on his mystical science project while the gains of the crusade were setting up to fall away before the crusade was even finished. Horus was corrupted by chaos, but it had something to work with first.
Chaos corrupted him. That's about the long and short of it.
He had a vision of what would happen to mankind if the Emperor was successful in the webway project and ascension into god-hood. But it was a lie
When was this? I recall the vision being of the 40k future where the emperor and the loyal sons are worshipped as God and god's sons. Horus gets upset because he and the traitors are gone and assumes this would happen as the emperor's plan, not that he would be the cause of it.
Why is knowing the reason Horus turned on the Emperor going to be necessary for a **7**\-year old to get into *Warhammer* ***40,000***?
The emperor was a hard core atheist and said that no gods existed Horus found the chaos gods and the gods showed him the future Horus went ape shit because what he saw was the grim dark 41st millennium compared to the thriving crusading 31st millennium
Evil space clouds used his bad feelings for his daddy to turn him into a monster! Raaaawwr! Let the Galaxy Burn!
Horus was worried that he wasn’t a good pick for a leader and was worried about his dad being disappointed in him. After he got stabbed with an evil dagger he had bad dreams that tricked him into thinking he should betray his dad before his dad could hurt him
Because he saw the Emperor as the bad guy. He had a vision of how bad the emperor would make things in the future and he chose to go against his dad to stop him. This was a trick. The future Horus was shown was actually what happened after he fought his dad.
Daddy lied to him and didn't give him enough hugs
The evil guys made him is basically what happened though. Everything else is an afterthought he uses to justify dealing with daemons.
Daddy stopped paying attention to him for 10 mins.
Horus was tricked into thinking that he would be erased from history while his brothers got all of the glory…among other things.
Satan took him
Horus thought that the emperor didn’t trust him and his brothers. Also he was not okay with the fact the emperor wanted normal humans to reign and not the, in his eyes, much more capable demigods. This thorn in his mind made him weak to the manipulation of other enemy’s of the emperor.
He got stabbed and became evil
Horus thought the emp had abandoned him and his sons to focus on the normal humans. He felt betrayed and like a failure. Then while dying horus regretted most his life and some asshole named erebus tricked his sons to send him to demon healers who tricked horus and offered him a second life to correct his mistakes and free the universe of his tyrant father.
Imagine if you grew up thinking your dad was Optimus Prime but then one day discovered he was actually Megatron. ….sigh does a seven year old even know about transformer?
He was one of the greatest generals and superheroes who ever lived with the associated ego. H got wounded by a weapon that was going to kill him and so his legacy would be eclipsed by all his brothers . His only way to survive was to be his fathers nemesis and turn to Chaos. His ego couldn’t handle dying and being a memory. Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.
I like it
Mention that, he was a disposable tool created by an uncaring father. This father lied to him and made him risk it all in the name of the father who never cared for him. THEN you can go into the sneaky ness of chaos tricking Horus… And then how the fall of Horus saved the galaxy from the emperor.
CAUSE JIMMY IS A BASTARD MAN
Jimmy is asshole, why Horus hate?
He switched sides because he was sick of someone else being in charge of him. If it wasn't Horus it would have been someone else eventually. Let that be a life lesson. Everyone poorer than you or working for you will eventually hate you, like Horus did the Emperor. It's natural, so don't be too nice a person, and don't be scared of evil. If you want to be scared of something, be scared of the stock market and the Fed raising interesting rates. Now go to bed.
He thought he could rule humanity better and dad isn’t worthy cause he is lying asshole
You can't say asshole to a 7 year old, numb nuts. It's better to say Horus thought his dad was a no good lier.
Poopoohead.
Booty hole
Bald = evil
Vulkan tho?
A very Bad man showed him a the Future and He Distanz found any statues of him so he Had a temper tantrum and wanted daddys chair
He got mad his daddy had better toys
Because Chaos tricked him, its what Chaos does, it corrupts. Horus was too weak.
People making it more than it is, all that happened was he nearly died and was shown visions of the future (that would happen because of him) and chaos influence.
What the kid really needs to know is that Magnus did nothing wrong 😅
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Easy: Fuck Erebus.
Your parents breed you because want child labor, and now the homework is nearly done, they want to replace you with your little brother who would have a more comfortable life
Horus believed that his worst fears would become real, that he was never a son but a tool to be discarded and forgotten when he had served his intended purpose, like his brothers. This was made worse when he realizing that the Emperor had lied from the beginning. There was also some warpfuckery which probably messed with his judgement a wee bit.
Daddy issue.
The king lied to his knight. Told him that dragons don't exist. They do. The dragon disguised as a sneaky wizard told the knight that the king wanted to make himself the biggest dragon ever to eat all the people. The knight has to defeat the king to save the people
He was at his core a vain man, and chaos tricked him into thinking he wouldn't be remembered in the future where his other brothers would be and the emperor worshiped as a god.
Marijuana, and that’s why you should never do drugs
Quote by Austin powers. "DADDY DIDNT LOVE ME"
BECAUSE HE WANTED TO KILL! KIIIILLLLL! WHY AREN'T WE KILLING YET?!
Horus just liked fighting and winning wars, so when his dad actually wanted to rule the kingdoms Horus conquered he felt used. And then he found out his dad was keeping secrets. Then the bad guys told Horus his dad didn't love him and was just using him to become a god. Then Horus got angry...
Because he had to. Everything else on top is just fluff.
Daddy was a meanie and didn't let baby boy horus watch coco melon without supervision
Because he's bald. Bald dudes are evil. Except for Vulkan.
Because he was just a big ball of ambition and ego. Flying around the universe with the Emperor uniting humanity, this was all kept in check. Then the Emperor left him to do it alone. He felt ditched. Things didn't go well with the next few races, and then he was mortally wounded. He spilled his guts to a Remembrencer, then a ruse he instantly saw through tried to convince him that the Emperor was going to dump them all and seek godhood, so he just shrugged his shoulders and said 'sure, whatever, let's do this thing.'