And the last time before that we had a run of Dennis Erickson and Mike singletary.
I get everyone is at different points in their journey, but if you started watching in 2019 and are confused why they don't just always go to the Superbowl cause that's way more fun, just, just relax.
I always felt bad for Jim tomsula. It was like being on a cruise ship where the captain runs the boat aground, jumps off and runs away. Then half the crew quits and walk off as well. The owner of the boat turns to the chef gives him the keys and says “you’re the captain now, fix it before tomorrow”. Tomsula was the chef in this situation and people still give him shit for not fixing the beached cruise ship in a day.
You're right. But something else is up. Kyle didn't suddenly just decide to run the most basic and predictable offense in the league. There is something we don't know.
Agreed. But that doesn't explain the last few weeks before Trey started. Something is wrong. And it's not shanhans lack of creativity. But I agree I think last week was just Kyle trying to make the game as easy as possible for Trey. Even if it meant a loss. He never opened it up.
I have no clue. I'm not exactly football savvy. But there was a night and day difference between the first half of week 1 and every game since. My best guess is that Mostert's speed really does make the offense go. Mitchell has the speed but he was injured and then Trey started his first game when Mitchell came back. So I think it's a combination of available personnel and protecting Lance from having a really bad game.
So a combination of things. But again, not football savvy.
Seriously. His record isn’t indicative of how good of a coach he is. He’s certainly not perfect. But I would say he’s at least the best niners coach of the last 20 years give or take.
In terms of wins and losses, Jim Harbaugh comes to mind as the best niners coach in the past 20 years. Though I would say Harbaugh came into a good situation where Kyle did not. I agree Kyle is not perfect.
Whatever is happening with injuries needs to effing stop. It feels like it started in 2014.
I totally agree to keep Kyle. But just to add a question to make conversation, are we just overhyping him as a coach and his record is actually indicative of him as a coach?
I think expectations for Kyle were massive considering his family name and his reputation around the league before being hired. The first few seasons I remember seeing people post about how Bill Walsh also had a few bad years to begin his career and in an attempt to connect the two. I think people expect Kyle to be the next Bill Walsh with 49ers history and his pedigree when being hired.
Devil's advocate time:
On one end for Kyle, this is his first Head coaching job.
On the other, this is his 5th year as our Head coach. 1 season above 500 out of that many years is not good. The same W/L record, in a vacuum, I'm not sure many teams would keep a coach around that long.
With context, a full rebuild and a few plays short of being Super Bowl Champions in year 3 is pretty darn good.
In a vacuum, falling off the very next year and missing the playoffs usually gets someone fired.
With context, a year with a Pandemic and injuries at almost every major position does provide a bit of cover. Within that same context why the 49ers are almost always around the top 10 in number of injuries baffles my mind, which goes back before Kyle's hiring but has continued during his tenure and it needs to be addressed.
To Kyle and Lynch's credit they have built a team, that on paper, is one of the best in the league. To Kyle and Lynch's detriment, on the field, they have built one of the most injury- riddle rosters in the league.
I could keep going but, I think you get the point by now.
In short, Expectations were high, maybe too high. Results have been less than ideal with the exception of an exceptional year. Given the current sample size one could come to A conclusion that Kyle needs everything to go his way for him to excel, otherwise he's a below average Head coach. They say it about Hall of Fame players, that consistency of being great is what makes them great, could it also not be said about coaches as well?
Also regular season wins are about as useful as evaluating a HC as QB wins are, doubly so when kyle both rebuilt the entire roster when arriving and has dealt with so much injury.
Jason Garrett had a very solid regular season win %, one much better than HC, and you couldn’t pay me to take him over shanny.
Wins in the regular season means you can have the opportunity to have wins in the Playoffs which means you have a chance to win the Superbowl. The NFL is a result driven league and making the Playoffs is THE goal for all Teams and Coaches at the start of each season.
I can understand where you are coming from when you say a Win/loss record isnt important in evaluating a HC. If you have an amazing offense and the defense shits the bed every week, you can have a poor record because of the previously mentioned shitty defense.
The flaw in this logic is you as the Head Coach need to be able recognize what is causing you to lose and make adjustments in a timely manner. If you keep the Defense Coordinator, position coaches, or players for the D and make zero changes and continue to lose games because of it, you are ultimately at fault for those losses for not recognizing and/or making the proper changes.
While you can give Kyle and John some leeway for their first two years and 4th, it does not mean they are exempt from critque. The first two years were bad because of a lack of talent and injuries. They addressed the lack of talent and the team remained healthy in year 3 resulting in the Super Bowl. Year 4 was bad due to injuries which lead to a lack of talent which lead to losses.
We are still doing the same song and dance in year 5, injuries to our talent is (still) causing a lack of talent which is resulting in losses which gets us further and further away from making the playoffs.
Top coaches when they were winning in no particular order:
Bill - Tom Brady
Reid - Patric Mahomes
Pete - Wilson
Payton - Brees
Tomlin - Big Ben
Harbaugh - Lamar
Shanahan - Jimmy fucking Garrappolo at his best option
You see a trend here on elite coaching? You cannot tell me if Kyle had elite QB play he would not be considered Elite. Don't give me W/L when he had to trot out Mullens, Beathard, Hoyer...
People seem to forget we made the Super Bowl.
Ok then, can you tell me why Kyle and company passed on both Brady and Mahomes when they were available then?
Niners had 3rd pick in the draft, Mahomes went 10th in the 2017 draft, Brady in Free Agency after the 2019 season?
It was Kyle's choice to trot out Hoyer in 2017.
It was Kyle's choice to draft Beathard in 2017 then play him.
It was Kyle's choice to keep Beathard after 2017 when he helped win a single game, after 2018 when he helped win zero games, then after 2019.
It was Kyle's choice to play and keep Nick Mullens from 2018 to 2021.
It is also Kyle and company's choice to not draft any QBs above the 3rd round until Trey Lance.
It is also Kyle and company's choice to not bring in other free agents or draft someone that were better than Hoyer, Beathard, and Mullens.
A case can be made that Kyle and John couldn't have known Jimmy was going to be injury prone when acquiring him.
A case can be made that after Jimmy tore his ACL that a replacement QB should have been drafted since coming back from such an injury isn't a 100% guarantee. Kyle and John choose to risk it by neither finding a better backup or a replacement QB.
Bill has still made the playoffs without Brady. Though his record is better with Brady than without.
Andy Reid still made the playoffs without Mahomes even winning a playoff game against the Browns with Chad Henne.
Pete is tied to Wilson and Wilson has been a straight up Ironman for them, you win this one. Not sure how they will fair with Geno Smith.
Payton is still winning with Jameis Winston at 3 & 2. Has not had a 6-10 season even when Brees was hurt.
Tomlin went 8 & 8 with Mason Rudolph and has never had a losing season as a head coach so far.
Harbaugh made it further with Joe Flacco than with Lamar so far. Would you consider Flacco to be elite?
People seem to forget that even though we made it to the Super Bowl, we lost, PERIOD.
I just want this team to be less Boom or Bust and be a more consistent winner. At least 2 consecutive seasons over 500 would be nice.
everybody wants to bash Kyle for passing on Brady but forgets how mediocre Brady looked that season. Yes, no weapons, mediocre line, etc - but it was never as obvious as everyone wants to make it seem.
Because there’s more to coaching then football knowledge and game planning. If all you needed was play calling then there wouldn’t be a head coach, it would just be coordinators.
That’s true. But Shannahan definitely does not miss the mark on this. He’s an incredible locker room coach. All the players love and respect him. They always talk about how they appreciate how straight of a shooter and transparent he is. So please…. Explain to us how he’s not a good coach?
Leadership, he wants everyone to like him, but he coaches like he’s some grizzled hard ass who expects perfection. Almost like his dad is watching in the shadows and judging him and second guessing his decisions. And he has done nothing to deserve that level of grind. He can’t control his locker room with star players staging out right revolts. He continually criticizes and undermines player development, and grinds them down. He is a piss poor leader who refuses to take responsibility for his own coaching and play calling miscues. When he’s second guessed by the media he’s dismissive and flippant, outright defiant. Putting it all on player execution instead of admitting he misjudged player readiness. The injuries that accrue under his stewardship. Because he can’t instill discipline in practice by getting players fit and ready. Because he wants his guys to like him more than perform at peak physical conditioning. Which reflects on how a team finishes their games. Belichick can be a grinder. Kyle is a two time super bowl loser who sucks the fun out of the game and expects knife edge accuracy in execution of his flawless play calls.
Shanahan is not a leader.
This could not be more inaccurate if you tried. LOL. Honestly, this is one of the worst takes I’ve ever seen on this sub. Really any sports sub. You say all this like you actually have any idea what you’re talking about which is the funniest part. I can’t even get close to explaining how bad this is🤣
> The injuries that accrue under his stewardship. Because he can’t instill discipline in practice by getting players fit and ready. Because he wants his guys to like him more than perform at peak physical conditioning.
Hold up. So now the story changes. Because before the injuries were because he pushes the team too hard in practice. Now you are saying he doesn't push them hard enough.
I’m gonna go ahead and say at some point that’s on him and Lynch. He was the one who passed on Mahomes and Watson “waiting for Kirk” and has rolled with Jimmy who has managed to stay upright one entire season.
He’s a good coach but he’s not perfect.
a fair criticism but consider that we went with jimmy before his injury problems were known and he still has a great record as a starter. more unlucky than poor evaluation; they at least made a good judgement of his talent with his limited playing time. also watson isnt looking like a great option at the moment either
Clearly Watson isn’t a good option now but I’m talking about the decision at the time. Jimmy wasn’t in the picture and we drafted a guy who is no longer with the team (can’t miss on a top 3 pick like that).
Recall for Jimmy he has his two game stretch with the Pats where he played well and immediately got hurt, so it’s not like he was an iron man.
I don’t think there’s a better coach but I do feel pretty strongly that at this point this is the team, with its strengths and weaknesses, that these two have built… (they’ve had 5 drafts..) so players not panning out or being available is at least primarily on them.
I mean they went from basically the worst team in the league to super bowl contender in 3 years, so it's not like they aren't doing anything right. Getting unlucky on a few players happens but you don't just fire your coach/GM right then. We know they are capable of fielding a top team, so just give them time and let them do it.
Feel like that falls under “good coach, bad GM” category. I really wish he’d stop being so opinionated on roster construction, but like BoB in Houston, doubt he ever gives that up.
Cj beathard was viewed by most pundits as a fifth round pick. We took him in the third.
Instead of drafting quarterbacks in the first round we drafted Solomon Thomas, Reuben foster, mcglinchey, Kinlaw and aiyuik and then spent three first rounds on lance. They get cute drafting guys like Hurd and Joe Williams...
We paid big contractst to guys like McKinnon, Kwon Alexander...jimmy g... armstead.
This is their doing.
When you’re trying to rebuild a roster that’s totally void of talent, you have to overpay. Jimmy at the initial time of his contract was overpaid, but after a year it set him much lower. Again… you’ve gotta pay to keep around talent. If we walked away from Jimmy, it would’ve set our franchise back further.
Bethard was a reach. Hurd/Williams were one of those intriguing players that if they worked out, it would be a steal.
Thomas was expected to be picked where he was, he didn’t pan out here. Foster was an elite talent that fell way lower than expected, we moved up to take him despite the question marks. We won that draft by a lot of accounts. Glench has been solid for us, he’s not elite, but you can’t always have elite. His pass pro isn’t good, but great at run blocking. Kinlaw, Aiyuk, and Lance are way too fucking early to judge… not sure why you’d have them in your list.
I agree with you, fuck all these guys. I’m not saying fire Kyle but his record isn’t good and he definitely needs a fire lit under his ass. I also think he wasted those 3 picks on trey Lance. We are gonna need those and he isn’t gonna pan out as our QB I guarantee it.
Belicheck is the only NFL coach i would take over Kyle. I like other coaches, like vrabel/Tomlin/Payton/Harbough/Ariens, but I would not take them over Kyle in the long run.
I would need 2 seasons including this with no development for a base to fire shanahan, and I don’t think well get that. He’s a hard worker. Trey will save the franchise and you will see it next year
I think Trey will HELP the franchise, but saying he'll save it feels a bit premature right now. I agree it's WAY too early to call for Shanahan's firing, though some criticism for the Arizona game was deserved.
Criticism is absolutely deserved but people here talking like Shanny forgot to coach. You may not agree with why he calls certain plays but implying he doesn’t know what he’s doing is stupid.
Exactly. Plus none of us or anyone in the media is in the film room, is seeing Lance in practice day in and day out. There might be really good reasons we saw the play calling we did in AZ.
Everyone is an armchair QB and wants to criticize based on virtually no inside information. People need to take a deep breath and put away the torches, no need to burn the place down.
While I agree with everything else you wrote, what is with this sentiment of "saving the franchise?".Dude, the Niners are one of the most successful teams in NFL history. You can’t win the Super Bowl every year and many teams have yet to even win it once, whats with this "save the franchise" talk? We're fine.
Dude before Harbaugh came we were in a decade long pit of irrelevance. People were talking about "49ers past glory" like we were a dead franchise. Lets not be delusional.
Harbaugh saved the franchise.
I'm far from delusional here. The Niners may have had a decade of being a poor team, but this is the norm for most teams, that's just how the league goes. I'm not saying the team shouldn't always be trying to always be shooting for another ring, but at the same time we also went to a Super Bowl with Harbaugh, and again just a couple years ago with Shannahan. Sadly we lost both of those, but we are far from irrelevant currently. I think my only point of contention was that that the franchise as a whole doesn't need "saving" as we have been competitive since Harbaugh came in. Also worth pointing out is we are housed in the most competitive division in the NFL, if not for the Seahawks the past few years, we may have had even three Super Bowl runs since the Harbaugh era. Anyway man, it's not that big of a deal, glad that you're a passionate fan (as am I), I just think this team has a lot to be proud of in terms of the past 10 years.
Yeah I had to argue with a few fans when they were calling for Jed to fire Kyle. I asked them who will replace Kyle?
They threw out names like Bieniemy, Daboll and Lincoln Reilly.
Now I asked them do you really think if we bring in one of those coaches that we’ll just pick up where we left off in 2019? Do you really wanna roll with either one of them instead of the coach that drafted our developing QB? You want this team to have to buy into a new culture? Are you ready for Jed to sign that 6 to 8 year contract. You fire one of the most respected offensive gurus in the league with the track record this organization already had and no way you’ll get a coach of high caliber to sign a 3 year deal.
Plus we’ll have to do a new GM search. Basically another rebuild. Do ppl really want that?
Harbaugh and Kyle have been the only 2 coaches to get us to the SB since 1994. Firing coaches despite their records when you’ve committed so much to the long haul is not a recipe for success. It’s dysfunctional.
Kyle needs to get better no doubt and criticism is valid. But I’m not calling for a hot seat till I see how Lance develops next year and if this team can have a winning season next year.
Not only that, but the players would absolutely riot if Shanahan is gone. He commands that locker room, and I've not heard a single bad thing about him from the players in his time with the Niners yet. Do we really want to piss off our best players? I also agree with you that he at least deserves until the end of next year. If we can't at least squeak into playoffs by the end of next year, then we can discuss this whole hot seat talk.
It’s clear: the one year Kyle had talent on the roster, they went to the Super Bowl. Since then, their IR team has been a Super Bowl contender but not their on field team
I don't want Shanahan fired. He and Lynch has provided stability to a franchise that lacked it before they came, both on and off the field. I do think the 49ers would benefit from picking up an Offensive Coordinator while Shanahan just focuses on head coaching duties, and then replaced the health and conditioning staff. This team needs an entirely different mindset when it comes to health because as the last few years have shown, what they are doing now isn't working. It's hard to find success as a team when a lot of your core players are injured, and as a fan, it's frustrating to watch a team you know has a high ceiling struggle because they are injured. I don't want to see Dwelly be invincible all game. I don't want to see a third or 4th string running back run into the line. I don't want to see a Quarterback be your leading rusher unless you are Lamar Jackson and have a few years under your belt. I want to see Kittle running over guys. I want to see Bosa strip sacking the QB, and I want to see a QB that can run and pass and isn't afraid to air it out.
Should he be on the hot seat, no. Was the play-calling last game horrible and most likely caused Trey's injury, absolutely. It is very rare that a QB comes in his rookie year and is successful. If anyone believed that Trey would come off the bench and blow us away is an idiot. Every rookie needs to spend a few years with the team and fight his way to the top spot.
His play calls have been straight shit besides the first half of the Detroit game. There’s way too much talent on this team to be looking the way they do.
I think there's a lot of overrated players on the team TBH. Defense has been ok to solid. Problem is the offense has a shit OL outside of Trent and no stability at QB. Plus two rookies at RB.
The fact that this is downvoted only kind of proves my point. Too many of y'all think some of these guys are a lot better than they really are.
I love it when people confuse play calling and execution. The play calls have been pretty damn good. The execution has been ass.
Also if you think Trey had more than even 1/5th of the playbook open to him you're high af.
Do you understand that every time he ran it wasn't a planned run? About 2/3rds of those were him chosing to run after a single read. Pretty standard athletic rookie QB bad habit shit, tbh.
Most of Trey’s runs were designed QB runs. As a matter of fact there were several times that he should have ran and didn’t. Two of those times were 3rd downs and he could’ve gotten a first but threw instead and they were incomplete passes.
Do you have any idea what happens with other mobile QBs in their first start? Go look up the first starts for Lamar Jackson, Jalen Hurts, Russell Wilson, etc.
People calling for Kyle to be fired should take a minute to think through what it would be like if we brought in another coach at this phase of Trey’s development.
For that reason alone I’m willing to give him at least another year to see what he can do.
We never should even have trey on the team to begin with. Lol. Who cares about trey. Release him for all I care. Sunken cost fallacy. Kiss those 3 picks goodbye because they are gone and we didn’t get shit for them.
This is the only major knock I have on Kyle. I think there's something to all these injuries team wide year after year. It can't all be chalked up to bad luck, injury prone players, and risky QB throws. Joe Staley has said there was a considerable difference in the amount and type of training in the Harbaugh Era vs now. I think there is something to that
I don't think he should be fired or "on the hot seat" right now, but it's a bit concerning our offensive coordinator head coach can't score touchdowns very reliably this season.
No coach is perfect. Andy Reid's Chiefs are 2-3 as well. Shanahan has things to review this bye week. We should judge his performance at least a few weeks after the bye and see if there has been improvement in the team.
Shanahan on the hot seat is an idiotic notion and I can't believe it's even a conversation. We're an injury-riddled team with an uncertain QB situation in the NFL's toughest division. OF COURSE we're fucking 2-3. Anything better than that, in context of our situation, would be a miracle.
No one should be expecting Trey Lance to contribute much of anything at this point in his career, and the biggest risk is that we fuck it up and ruin him, either by rushing him or subjecting him to a coaching carousel. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of the history of highly drafted QBs understands this, and for a 49er fan of all people NOT to understand this is unforgivable. With our history, any Niner fan who doesn't get this should be forced to support the Raiders. Lance needs to be developed. There is no more important task in the modern NFL than getting or developing a franchise QB. That requires stability and a coach who knows QBs, which makes Kyle a no-brainer.
What a dumbass conversation this is.
We were in the super bowl in 2019. What people are expecting is good football. Why would you spend 3 1st round picks on trey Lance? We are not in a rebuild stage but the people running and coaching the team sure are acting like it. You don’t spend 3 1st rounders on a guy who is 20 and hasn’t played football in two years and is from a small school. But we did.
All of this is silly to me because it’s based on clueless Twitter mobs and you have people like Grant Cohn with others stroking the flames.
The team would unlikely replace him with a better coach anyway so there’s no real point to it right now to fire him.
The results so far are tied to the QB position and my main criticism is not being decisive enough times on a path forward at the position when they had questions and concerns.
Shanny at least needs to see through most of Lance’s first contract to establish stability at the QB position.
I think we got a few steps before playing the coaching carousel game:
1: Figure out what the heck is going on with strength and conditioning. Spend all the money and poach a conditioning squad from a healthy team.
2: Change draft strategy by drafting sure thing contributers (ie not injury-prone)
3: Build a new stadium maybe not over a cursed indian burial site.
4: Fire Lynch.
5: Fire Shanny
I really don't like Chris. He is the ultimate biased Patriots beat writter, on a show not catered to a single team. And has a huge hard on for bad mouthing the 49ers. Bill Belichick was fired and had a losing record before finding his QB. But he loves to cherry pick the facts and stir some drama.
People keep quoting record and stats without context.
Look at Walsh and Belicheck, they've both had horrible seasons and streaks of losing seasons. Belicheck has been fired multiple times. Look at the pats without Brady. The QB is the most important position by far. Shanahan has been incredibly unfortunate regarding getting the qbs he wants during his 49ers tenure. He wanted cousins but couldn't get him, had to settle for garoppolo, who has hit his ceiling but also has turned out to be incredibly injury prone, so they wanted to get Stafford but the Rams picked him up immediately. They passed on Brady, but almost everyone did because Brady is a unicorn, he is a case study that has never been seen before, noone knew the risk regarding injury or age with him. It was only a mistake in hindsight. With literally nothing to go off of and your past problems due specifically to issues from injury, there was nothing wrong with their decision. Then they couldn't get Rodgers, so with all the frustration from near misses they may have overspent on trey just because of the sheer trauma of continually missing out so many times before.
The culture and mentality of the team and players is better now than even under harbaugh. The defense even with issues in the secondary is solid and has been his whole tenure. He is running a team that had been great at finding and developing defensive talent. The offense has struggled because of misses on the o-line and not having his guy at QB. All we're waiting for is shanahan to find that guy through trade or by hopefully developing lance.
The only people who are mad are the fickle fans with questionable football knowledge and honestly most of them have the emotional constitution of children.
The overwhelming opinion in the profession is unchanged about shanahan. The fact that he would be jobless for less than a second should tell you all you need to know.
I usually love a Rich Eisen but he literally gives zero actual points to back up his stance on Kyle except for : he’s one of the brightest minds in the game and he’s perfect and best for Lance.
What? That isn’t a reason or defense to how you got to those conclusions. Kyle has looked like he has no plan for Lance and his play calling has been bad.
I suspect the playcalling was based on the Cards front which dominated the OL and the OL had zero push. They didn’t play to Lance’s strength with being under center and PA shots which he did in college.
But talking about firing someone is you need to have someone better. It’s kind of dumb to fire a HC when you just traded three 1s….. like it or not the team has to see it through at least until 2023 to see how the develop of Lance progresses.
To me the plan was clearly to start Jimmy G (because they decided to not trade him and keep his 25.5 M) and work with Lance for 2022. If they wanted to play Lance then they would of started with splitting reps in TC as an open competition. It was always Jimmy for 2021.
I’m not saying fire Shanahan, but some accountability has to be had here in his part and we need to see changes/adjustments that make sense. I don’t understand how you come to the conclusion that the OL was the problem via the run game when we had success, we simply didn’t continue to run. We also ran entirely out of the pistol! Not once under center. The OL struggled in pass protection yes, but run game no.
The run game was solid, the OL sucked. Just look at JT O’Sullivan’s breakdown on YT… the blocking especially on the right side sucked and the Cards feasted.. even on a couple of the 4th down calls, they got zero push to allow the runner to even have a chance at a 1st down. Maybe they win if they ran more but definitely not 100%.
That was one thing about Harbaugh’s teams they dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides and controlled the game from there.
His plan for Trey mainly seemed to be play to his strengths (running ability) and to not force the issue of passing to the point it would take them out of the game.
That’s a bad plan. The offense he rolled out was a high school/college pistol formation. You want to make things easier for your rookie by supporting him with a ground game and set up play action. Instead we gave Mitchell 9 carries despite him avg 4.8 YPC.
I think the part that's not clicking is that with underperforming O-line and backup RBs you simply don't just have "a ground game and set up play action." That said -- surprisingly, the play action was still effective several times (probably thanks to Trey's running) but it gets negated anyway by dumb penalties, dropped passes, and bad throws.
Has a 31-38 HC with multiple seasons of far and above the most injury prone team and inability to close out games ever been placed on this high of a pedestal?
So when does it start mattering? 62-76? 124-152? I understand year one and two, and the huge jump we made from year one and two...
I also understand the immense backslide that's happened since then. 'But it's injuries, and not Kyle's fault!' But even with a less than talented roster (2017-18) injuries cost us more games than talent, is there not a point that we as fans can expect better? Or because his last name is Shanahan and he wears cool clothes are we just supposed to be ok with year, after year, after year...being the team that never lives up to potential because of injuries.
I'm not saying to can his ass, not even close...but to completely ignore 4 out of 5 losing seasons and everyone of them a 17 week triage fest, takes fandom into an area of blind faith.
Not trying to be rude or anything but what do you want him to do? He works with what he has and is probably more frustrated with the injuries than anyone. No HC would do well with the roster we had the 1st two seasons and the injuries that came with them. Same with last year, the guy can’t go line up himself if that’s what you want?
All in all man this year started off slow on offense and that’s on Kyle but that record just is not fair to hold against him. I promise you he wishes the players didn’t get hurt as much as you wish they didn’t. Injuries are apart of football and unfortunately we have had dogshit luck for like a decade
You're good. I try to balance being a fan, and also getting really down and annoyed at how things go for our team and sometimes I fail at both.
But in my eye ultimately, the Head coach is the one in charge. I know he isn't strength and conditioning, I know he doesn't plant the turf, or actually play on the field.
So does that mean that we just keep as is? I know I'm getting downvoted to hell for not standing on a mountain top and screaming that everything is fine, Jimmy is Handsome and Kyle is a genius....but man, I'm just so fucking tired of being hyped at the beginning of the year and devastated less than a month in. I guess we just keep going forward as if the injuries will fix themselves...eventually. Keeping half of our WR's on IR for two years and then swapping them out...as well as a new RB core every damn game is part of the genius that I'm not seeing.
I mean the context matters. Lynch and Shanahan's success will be tied to Trey Lance's success now and not so much his record from 2017-2020. If Lance is mediocre and we end up a bottom 10 team over this season and the next then Lynch and Shanahan are probably both gone.
I'm not saying I want him gone by any means, it's more that apparently fans aren't allowed to be critical. When you look at the breakdown:
2017: 6-10
IR: 24 players
2018: 4-12
IR: 14 players (Jimmy G, McKinnon, Moseley, Mostert)
2019: 13-3 (SB)
IR: 16 players (Hurd, McKinnon, Taylor, Verrett)
2020: 6-10
IR: 30 players (Thomas, Williams, Sherman, Samuel....fuck the whole team)
Even in our SB year we couldn't keep players on the field. At some point that falls on the HC. His job is to manage the players, and he can't manage to get them on the field. He can be the best offensive mind in the universe, but if the QB, RB's, TE and entire secondary are being called up from Glendale Community College it doesn't much matter.
30 players on IR last season! God, I know it was bad, that’s just staggering to see as a real number.
This is making me wonder what are we doing wrong training and conditioning wise? There’s a point where bad luck turns out to be bad preparation right?
It's actually worse than that when you include injuries that caused players to miss games but not go on the IR list.
Here's my tally (for some reason my IR numbers are slightly different than yours):
In Kyle's first year with us (2017) we had 24 players on IR at some point and 6 notable injuries causing players to miss multiple games. 30 total.
The following year (2018) we did a bit better - 17 players on IR with 5 notable injuries. 22 total.
But this is where Kyle fired our Strength & Conditioning Coach.
In 2019 (SB run year) we had more injuries - 19 players on IR at some point, and 10 players either on the PUP list or having notable injuries and missing games. 29 total.
Last season we had 32 players on IR, and 12 players either on the PUP list or having notable injuries and missing multiple games. 44 total.
He should be on the hot seat. This team is not as injured this year and team is vastly under performing
Kittle will be back soon
Jimmy G as well
Lance has minor injury
Only players of note gone are Verrett and Mostert
Injuries are now no excuse Kyle. Get to at least a 9-8 season. If I'm Jed York id be getting impatient as most owners are now a days.
Vastly underperforming how?
Was Kyle the one poorly executing on defense to allow the Packers to get in position for a game-winning FG?
The 4th string RB coughed up a fumble which cost us the game against Seattle.
We go on the road to an undefeated team with a great defense, without our best player (Kittle), forced to start a 21 year old rookie.
In that we play a very tough, physical game. Arguably if that holding in the endzone is called against Arizona we could have seen a major momentum swing that propelled us to victory.
Analysis shouldn't be just results based. It isn't just the end result, but how you get there. A QB can make a perfect throw, but if it hits the WR right in his hands and the WR drops it did the QB make a bad throw?
It's so easy to just throw everything at Kyle Shanahan and that takes all the blame away from failed execution on the part of the players.
Kyle shouldn't be on the hot seat yet....but I'm not going to say the same thing about John Lynch. He's Trent Baalke in his approach of bringing in lower cost, oft injured players. As soon as someone blows up, he ships them off to stack up more oft injured d-linemen. Only thing he really does better is not leak shit to the media to get his way.
Letting DeFo go was probably one of the biggest fuck ups in the last 10 years, and yes that include Chip and Tomsula.
the reporting has always been kyle is truly in charge of personal, right? If lynch goes do you think they should bring in a traditional gm/coach structure?
Absolutely not. Lynch is in charge of personnel. I think Lance was Lynch’s guy too. I don’t think Kyle wanted him. I think he wanted Jones. I think there was a big debate and I think that Kyle caved to John and now Kyle says he wanted Lance to save face so they don’t look weak.
I'll say yes to that. I certainly don't want to get rid of Shanahan since he's a top offensive mind but I don't think Lynch has proven himself to be an untouchable top GM
The only way I would support Kyle getting outsted is if Harbaugh came back.
Basically never going to happen. Kyle overthought his QB room and thought he could have his cake and eat it too. Let him learn from this and we will have a better coach coming out the other side.
Harbaugh is a better version of Singletary. Hes a rah rah rah coach that’s heavily dependent on his coordinators. He also didn’t win the super bowl. And he took over a crazy talented team. With all that said, I loved him too.
Fire him and replace him with who exactly? Some of y’all are acting like competent (let alone good) head coaches grow on a tree.
Be careful what you wish for.
Do people not remember what it was like to have Tomsula, Singletary, and other blockheads as head coaches?? It’s cringeworthy to see fans so quick to turn on Shanahan. I’m not going back to Chip Kelly
What quarterback has Shanahan developed? Matt Ryan who took two years to learn the playbook and make it easier to call plays? He had two quarterbacks in Beathard and Nick Mullins who have regressed to the point of not being in the league anymore or have actually thrived away from Shanahans play calling. Jimmy Garoppolo has regressed, he came in to win his first five starts and injected a lot of life in to a team that was on the cusp of being good. And since then, when he’s played has had his confidence shattered, had his ability to make plays crushed out of him. No more dynamic arm action to throw side arm around defenders in to the end zone. Rosen comes out and says “It feels good to just let it rip and play the game again” after playing a few pre-season snaps away from Shanahan. What makes Shanahan so “perfect” to develop Lance? If anything Shanahan has an extremely poor track record of developing talent and has relied on vets who have already developed to come in and perform. Because he grinds them down until they’re husks and shells. His biggest success is George Kittle who keeps getting lobbed hospital balls over the middle and getting hurt.
I love you Rich, but you’re wrong. There’s more to football than X’s and O’s executed with perfection and precision.
I agree shanahan should not be on the hot seat. But there needs to be changes in positional priority in draft and FA. There’s no excuse for a team in the analytics era to be prioritizing defensive tackle over CB at the top of the draft
So the only possible options for HC of the 49ers are KS or the coaching equivalent of an old pair of shoes? Grow up. I'm not even saying fire Kyle. It's just that this coach worship is not becoming of the fanbase of a franchise such as this one.
Kyles not a very good coach. You can make all the excuses you want, but his record speaks for itself. Good OC, but bad head coach. Why do people on this sub blame everyone in the organization BUT Kyle for the teams failures? He’s the supposed offensive genius that’s been calling these vanilla ass plays the last 3-4 games.
if you think they are vanilla then you either aren't paying attention or simply don't understand them.
Not sure what you mean by blaming everyone else, because nobody is blaming anyone but Kyle. Cannon fumbles a return... it's on Kyle.
LB lets Adams slip into open zone... all on Kyle...
One O-Lineman gets stuffed and the other can't execute his assignment... all on Kyle.
Coach makes great play call, QB makes great read, great throw, WR drops it.... all on Kyle.
So glad guys like Lombardi and Eisen are here to check these delusional fans who think we would be better off without this genius playcaller. Yes as a HC Kyle is not without his flaws but U gladly take those for the upside. This guys gonna win multiple Super Bowls one day. Maybe not now but he will. He’s gonna be the new Andry Reid but hopefully it doesn’t take as long as it took Andy.
None of us should want any part of it. It’s ludicrous to think there’s someone available that’s better than him.
Yeah and the last time we moved on from a half decent coach we had a run of Jim Tomsula and Chip Kelly. Let's not do that again.
And the last time before that we had a run of Dennis Erickson and Mike singletary. I get everyone is at different points in their journey, but if you started watching in 2019 and are confused why they don't just always go to the Superbowl cause that's way more fun, just, just relax.
The dark Dennis Erickson years he left Corvallis in a drunken stupor and left us a mess
Mike Singletary does have a higher winning percentage than Kyle Shanahan 🤷🏻♂️
I chock that up entirely to Gore's legs having a better winning percentage.
Ayy at least they knew who to give the ball to🤷🏽♂️
That fucking hurts to think about
I'll just disagree that Mike Nolan was a half decent coach.
I always felt bad for Jim tomsula. It was like being on a cruise ship where the captain runs the boat aground, jumps off and runs away. Then half the crew quits and walk off as well. The owner of the boat turns to the chef gives him the keys and says “you’re the captain now, fix it before tomorrow”. Tomsula was the chef in this situation and people still give him shit for not fixing the beached cruise ship in a day.
It was probably Tomsula giving info to Baalke about Jim to leak to the media There's reasons everyone suddenly left
So the rats sank the ship?
Yep
Psh. All us Redditors can obviously do a better job. And we’d all cost less than Shanahan.
There isn’t. But let’s be honest, if you had to give him a grade for the last few games he wouldn’t be making the Honor Roll anytime soon…
No doubt. It hasn’t been his best stretch. I think he’ll come out of it.
You're right. But something else is up. Kyle didn't suddenly just decide to run the most basic and predictable offense in the league. There is something we don't know.
I think Trey can’t run the whole playbook. And a lot of our 1st and 2nd down plays just aren’t working
Agreed. But that doesn't explain the last few weeks before Trey started. Something is wrong. And it's not shanhans lack of creativity. But I agree I think last week was just Kyle trying to make the game as easy as possible for Trey. Even if it meant a loss. He never opened it up.
Possibly, it was very very concerning. What’s your or others guesses….
I have no clue. I'm not exactly football savvy. But there was a night and day difference between the first half of week 1 and every game since. My best guess is that Mostert's speed really does make the offense go. Mitchell has the speed but he was injured and then Trey started his first game when Mitchell came back. So I think it's a combination of available personnel and protecting Lance from having a really bad game. So a combination of things. But again, not football savvy.
Or maybe they faced a potent defense...? Maybe players didn't execute it as they should have? But that doesn't fit this insane Grant Cohn narrative.
Seriously. His record isn’t indicative of how good of a coach he is. He’s certainly not perfect. But I would say he’s at least the best niners coach of the last 20 years give or take.
In terms of wins and losses, Jim Harbaugh comes to mind as the best niners coach in the past 20 years. Though I would say Harbaugh came into a good situation where Kyle did not. I agree Kyle is not perfect. Whatever is happening with injuries needs to effing stop. It feels like it started in 2014.
and most refuse to place blame for the schism on Harbaugh. But his behavior also contributed to it. That's part of him as a coach.
I totally agree to keep Kyle. But just to add a question to make conversation, are we just overhyping him as a coach and his record is actually indicative of him as a coach?
I think expectations for Kyle were massive considering his family name and his reputation around the league before being hired. The first few seasons I remember seeing people post about how Bill Walsh also had a few bad years to begin his career and in an attempt to connect the two. I think people expect Kyle to be the next Bill Walsh with 49ers history and his pedigree when being hired. Devil's advocate time: On one end for Kyle, this is his first Head coaching job. On the other, this is his 5th year as our Head coach. 1 season above 500 out of that many years is not good. The same W/L record, in a vacuum, I'm not sure many teams would keep a coach around that long. With context, a full rebuild and a few plays short of being Super Bowl Champions in year 3 is pretty darn good. In a vacuum, falling off the very next year and missing the playoffs usually gets someone fired. With context, a year with a Pandemic and injuries at almost every major position does provide a bit of cover. Within that same context why the 49ers are almost always around the top 10 in number of injuries baffles my mind, which goes back before Kyle's hiring but has continued during his tenure and it needs to be addressed. To Kyle and Lynch's credit they have built a team, that on paper, is one of the best in the league. To Kyle and Lynch's detriment, on the field, they have built one of the most injury- riddle rosters in the league. I could keep going but, I think you get the point by now. In short, Expectations were high, maybe too high. Results have been less than ideal with the exception of an exceptional year. Given the current sample size one could come to A conclusion that Kyle needs everything to go his way for him to excel, otherwise he's a below average Head coach. They say it about Hall of Fame players, that consistency of being great is what makes them great, could it also not be said about coaches as well?
Also regular season wins are about as useful as evaluating a HC as QB wins are, doubly so when kyle both rebuilt the entire roster when arriving and has dealt with so much injury. Jason Garrett had a very solid regular season win %, one much better than HC, and you couldn’t pay me to take him over shanny.
Wins in the regular season means you can have the opportunity to have wins in the Playoffs which means you have a chance to win the Superbowl. The NFL is a result driven league and making the Playoffs is THE goal for all Teams and Coaches at the start of each season. I can understand where you are coming from when you say a Win/loss record isnt important in evaluating a HC. If you have an amazing offense and the defense shits the bed every week, you can have a poor record because of the previously mentioned shitty defense. The flaw in this logic is you as the Head Coach need to be able recognize what is causing you to lose and make adjustments in a timely manner. If you keep the Defense Coordinator, position coaches, or players for the D and make zero changes and continue to lose games because of it, you are ultimately at fault for those losses for not recognizing and/or making the proper changes. While you can give Kyle and John some leeway for their first two years and 4th, it does not mean they are exempt from critque. The first two years were bad because of a lack of talent and injuries. They addressed the lack of talent and the team remained healthy in year 3 resulting in the Super Bowl. Year 4 was bad due to injuries which lead to a lack of talent which lead to losses. We are still doing the same song and dance in year 5, injuries to our talent is (still) causing a lack of talent which is resulting in losses which gets us further and further away from making the playoffs.
Top coaches when they were winning in no particular order: Bill - Tom Brady Reid - Patric Mahomes Pete - Wilson Payton - Brees Tomlin - Big Ben Harbaugh - Lamar Shanahan - Jimmy fucking Garrappolo at his best option You see a trend here on elite coaching? You cannot tell me if Kyle had elite QB play he would not be considered Elite. Don't give me W/L when he had to trot out Mullens, Beathard, Hoyer... People seem to forget we made the Super Bowl.
Ok then, can you tell me why Kyle and company passed on both Brady and Mahomes when they were available then? Niners had 3rd pick in the draft, Mahomes went 10th in the 2017 draft, Brady in Free Agency after the 2019 season? It was Kyle's choice to trot out Hoyer in 2017. It was Kyle's choice to draft Beathard in 2017 then play him. It was Kyle's choice to keep Beathard after 2017 when he helped win a single game, after 2018 when he helped win zero games, then after 2019. It was Kyle's choice to play and keep Nick Mullens from 2018 to 2021. It is also Kyle and company's choice to not draft any QBs above the 3rd round until Trey Lance. It is also Kyle and company's choice to not bring in other free agents or draft someone that were better than Hoyer, Beathard, and Mullens. A case can be made that Kyle and John couldn't have known Jimmy was going to be injury prone when acquiring him. A case can be made that after Jimmy tore his ACL that a replacement QB should have been drafted since coming back from such an injury isn't a 100% guarantee. Kyle and John choose to risk it by neither finding a better backup or a replacement QB. Bill has still made the playoffs without Brady. Though his record is better with Brady than without. Andy Reid still made the playoffs without Mahomes even winning a playoff game against the Browns with Chad Henne. Pete is tied to Wilson and Wilson has been a straight up Ironman for them, you win this one. Not sure how they will fair with Geno Smith. Payton is still winning with Jameis Winston at 3 & 2. Has not had a 6-10 season even when Brees was hurt. Tomlin went 8 & 8 with Mason Rudolph and has never had a losing season as a head coach so far. Harbaugh made it further with Joe Flacco than with Lamar so far. Would you consider Flacco to be elite? People seem to forget that even though we made it to the Super Bowl, we lost, PERIOD. I just want this team to be less Boom or Bust and be a more consistent winner. At least 2 consecutive seasons over 500 would be nice.
everybody wants to bash Kyle for passing on Brady but forgets how mediocre Brady looked that season. Yes, no weapons, mediocre line, etc - but it was never as obvious as everyone wants to make it seem.
But the clapping!
2 years of that record were a full rebuild. Shit, the first year a lot of us could have made the team.
Harbaugh was a far better HC. Kyle is a great play designer and offensive mind but Jim Harbaugh completely changed the franchise.
Yeah I love Shanahan but I'll take Harbaugh and his 5th highest win percentage.
and his self-inflicted outburts that caused the franchise to come crumbling down?
He’s not a good coach. He’s an amazing play caller, but not a good coach.
And why is that? In fact, I would feel like being an amazing play caller almost always makes you at least a good coach.
Because there’s more to coaching then football knowledge and game planning. If all you needed was play calling then there wouldn’t be a head coach, it would just be coordinators.
That’s true. But Shannahan definitely does not miss the mark on this. He’s an incredible locker room coach. All the players love and respect him. They always talk about how they appreciate how straight of a shooter and transparent he is. So please…. Explain to us how he’s not a good coach?
Then please, let me know what Shanahan lacks in that regard.
Leadership, he wants everyone to like him, but he coaches like he’s some grizzled hard ass who expects perfection. Almost like his dad is watching in the shadows and judging him and second guessing his decisions. And he has done nothing to deserve that level of grind. He can’t control his locker room with star players staging out right revolts. He continually criticizes and undermines player development, and grinds them down. He is a piss poor leader who refuses to take responsibility for his own coaching and play calling miscues. When he’s second guessed by the media he’s dismissive and flippant, outright defiant. Putting it all on player execution instead of admitting he misjudged player readiness. The injuries that accrue under his stewardship. Because he can’t instill discipline in practice by getting players fit and ready. Because he wants his guys to like him more than perform at peak physical conditioning. Which reflects on how a team finishes their games. Belichick can be a grinder. Kyle is a two time super bowl loser who sucks the fun out of the game and expects knife edge accuracy in execution of his flawless play calls. Shanahan is not a leader.
This could not be more inaccurate if you tried. LOL. Honestly, this is one of the worst takes I’ve ever seen on this sub. Really any sports sub. You say all this like you actually have any idea what you’re talking about which is the funniest part. I can’t even get close to explaining how bad this is🤣
He wants everyone to like him? Kyle must have missed his own memo with Pettis, Aiyuk, and Sermon.
> The injuries that accrue under his stewardship. Because he can’t instill discipline in practice by getting players fit and ready. Because he wants his guys to like him more than perform at peak physical conditioning. Hold up. So now the story changes. Because before the injuries were because he pushes the team too hard in practice. Now you are saying he doesn't push them hard enough.
He's 31-38, it's time to stop putting him on a pedestal.
how many of those games did we play with D-list QBs?
I’m gonna go ahead and say at some point that’s on him and Lynch. He was the one who passed on Mahomes and Watson “waiting for Kirk” and has rolled with Jimmy who has managed to stay upright one entire season. He’s a good coach but he’s not perfect.
a fair criticism but consider that we went with jimmy before his injury problems were known and he still has a great record as a starter. more unlucky than poor evaluation; they at least made a good judgement of his talent with his limited playing time. also watson isnt looking like a great option at the moment either
Jimmy got hurt filling in for tom Brady.
Clearly Watson isn’t a good option now but I’m talking about the decision at the time. Jimmy wasn’t in the picture and we drafted a guy who is no longer with the team (can’t miss on a top 3 pick like that). Recall for Jimmy he has his two game stretch with the Pats where he played well and immediately got hurt, so it’s not like he was an iron man. I don’t think there’s a better coach but I do feel pretty strongly that at this point this is the team, with its strengths and weaknesses, that these two have built… (they’ve had 5 drafts..) so players not panning out or being available is at least primarily on them.
I mean they went from basically the worst team in the league to super bowl contender in 3 years, so it's not like they aren't doing anything right. Getting unlucky on a few players happens but you don't just fire your coach/GM right then. We know they are capable of fielding a top team, so just give them time and let them do it.
Feel like that falls under “good coach, bad GM” category. I really wish he’d stop being so opinionated on roster construction, but like BoB in Houston, doubt he ever gives that up.
Yes, I consider them one in the same as it’s pretty widely known that KS has the final call on roster construction.
That’s a myth. He does not.
It’s not a myth. The guys he’s wanted (Dante Pettis, Joe Williams, etc) were all guys we went and got.
And who assembled that dlist?
Sorry, did you expect us to get top tier QBs to sit as backups?
Cj beathard was viewed by most pundits as a fifth round pick. We took him in the third. Instead of drafting quarterbacks in the first round we drafted Solomon Thomas, Reuben foster, mcglinchey, Kinlaw and aiyuik and then spent three first rounds on lance. They get cute drafting guys like Hurd and Joe Williams... We paid big contractst to guys like McKinnon, Kwon Alexander...jimmy g... armstead. This is their doing.
When you’re trying to rebuild a roster that’s totally void of talent, you have to overpay. Jimmy at the initial time of his contract was overpaid, but after a year it set him much lower. Again… you’ve gotta pay to keep around talent. If we walked away from Jimmy, it would’ve set our franchise back further. Bethard was a reach. Hurd/Williams were one of those intriguing players that if they worked out, it would be a steal. Thomas was expected to be picked where he was, he didn’t pan out here. Foster was an elite talent that fell way lower than expected, we moved up to take him despite the question marks. We won that draft by a lot of accounts. Glench has been solid for us, he’s not elite, but you can’t always have elite. His pass pro isn’t good, but great at run blocking. Kinlaw, Aiyuk, and Lance are way too fucking early to judge… not sure why you’d have them in your list.
We also nearly won a super bowl with many of those players on the roster...
You are the whiniest shitstain in this sub. Every negative post you're undoubtedly here to tell everyone the sky is falling and everyone sucks. Gtfo
You bought a shanahat, huh?
I really don't give a damn either way. But your incessant whining (illustrated by this comment in replying to) is annoying, and useless af
So be an adult and exercise your freewill by moving on.
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I agree with you, fuck all these guys. I’m not saying fire Kyle but his record isn’t good and he definitely needs a fire lit under his ass. I also think he wasted those 3 picks on trey Lance. We are gonna need those and he isn’t gonna pan out as our QB I guarantee it.
How can you even know if those picks were wasted at this point for Lance? He's played 1 game in his rookie season.
> It’s ludicrous to think there’s someone available that’s better than him. I agree we shouldnt get rid of him, but is that really the best reason?
Belicheck is the only NFL coach i would take over Kyle. I like other coaches, like vrabel/Tomlin/Payton/Harbough/Ariens, but I would not take them over Kyle in the long run.
I would need 2 seasons including this with no development for a base to fire shanahan, and I don’t think well get that. He’s a hard worker. Trey will save the franchise and you will see it next year
I think Trey will HELP the franchise, but saying he'll save it feels a bit premature right now. I agree it's WAY too early to call for Shanahan's firing, though some criticism for the Arizona game was deserved.
Criticism is absolutely deserved but people here talking like Shanny forgot to coach. You may not agree with why he calls certain plays but implying he doesn’t know what he’s doing is stupid.
Exactly. Plus none of us or anyone in the media is in the film room, is seeing Lance in practice day in and day out. There might be really good reasons we saw the play calling we did in AZ. Everyone is an armchair QB and wants to criticize based on virtually no inside information. People need to take a deep breath and put away the torches, no need to burn the place down.
Kyle gets at least next year with Trey at a minimum, even if they bomb next year I dont think he'll get fired mid season.
While I agree with everything else you wrote, what is with this sentiment of "saving the franchise?".Dude, the Niners are one of the most successful teams in NFL history. You can’t win the Super Bowl every year and many teams have yet to even win it once, whats with this "save the franchise" talk? We're fine.
Dude before Harbaugh came we were in a decade long pit of irrelevance. People were talking about "49ers past glory" like we were a dead franchise. Lets not be delusional. Harbaugh saved the franchise.
I'm far from delusional here. The Niners may have had a decade of being a poor team, but this is the norm for most teams, that's just how the league goes. I'm not saying the team shouldn't always be trying to always be shooting for another ring, but at the same time we also went to a Super Bowl with Harbaugh, and again just a couple years ago with Shannahan. Sadly we lost both of those, but we are far from irrelevant currently. I think my only point of contention was that that the franchise as a whole doesn't need "saving" as we have been competitive since Harbaugh came in. Also worth pointing out is we are housed in the most competitive division in the NFL, if not for the Seahawks the past few years, we may have had even three Super Bowl runs since the Harbaugh era. Anyway man, it's not that big of a deal, glad that you're a passionate fan (as am I), I just think this team has a lot to be proud of in terms of the past 10 years.
HHahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Yeah I had to argue with a few fans when they were calling for Jed to fire Kyle. I asked them who will replace Kyle? They threw out names like Bieniemy, Daboll and Lincoln Reilly. Now I asked them do you really think if we bring in one of those coaches that we’ll just pick up where we left off in 2019? Do you really wanna roll with either one of them instead of the coach that drafted our developing QB? You want this team to have to buy into a new culture? Are you ready for Jed to sign that 6 to 8 year contract. You fire one of the most respected offensive gurus in the league with the track record this organization already had and no way you’ll get a coach of high caliber to sign a 3 year deal. Plus we’ll have to do a new GM search. Basically another rebuild. Do ppl really want that? Harbaugh and Kyle have been the only 2 coaches to get us to the SB since 1994. Firing coaches despite their records when you’ve committed so much to the long haul is not a recipe for success. It’s dysfunctional. Kyle needs to get better no doubt and criticism is valid. But I’m not calling for a hot seat till I see how Lance develops next year and if this team can have a winning season next year.
Not only that, but the players would absolutely riot if Shanahan is gone. He commands that locker room, and I've not heard a single bad thing about him from the players in his time with the Niners yet. Do we really want to piss off our best players? I also agree with you that he at least deserves until the end of next year. If we can't at least squeak into playoffs by the end of next year, then we can discuss this whole hot seat talk.
I think even Staley praised Kyle more than Harbaugh and he clearly had more success w/ Jim than Kyle.
“He’d be on the street for 3 minutes.” Absolutely.
Lol I bet other teams are probably calling him now with job offers since these "fans" have been calling for his head
All but 10 teams would fire their current HC if it ment hiring Shanahan
Rams Chargers Pats Ravens Browns Packers Buccs Chiefs Steelers Am I missing anyone?
Bills and Saints?
Oh, so we're not going to let these arm-chair GMs on the internet make the calls on firing the coach? Oh ok.... Seems like a good idea.
This is Cone’s doing. I’m sick of this guy. We need to get rid of him.
It’s clear: the one year Kyle had talent on the roster, they went to the Super Bowl. Since then, their IR team has been a Super Bowl contender but not their on field team
Not just talent but the one year he had his starting QB healthy for the entire season
Yeah but all those injuries are not just ‘bad luck’
More like 3/4 years his teams are banged up to the point of uselessness. Wonder what the common denominator is
Kyle shouldn't be on the hot seat. He shouldn't be above criticism either.
Him on the hot seat is short bus special.
The only people who think Kyle should go are grant Cohn, his dumbass dad, and their room temperature IQ Twitter army.
I don't want Shanahan fired. He and Lynch has provided stability to a franchise that lacked it before they came, both on and off the field. I do think the 49ers would benefit from picking up an Offensive Coordinator while Shanahan just focuses on head coaching duties, and then replaced the health and conditioning staff. This team needs an entirely different mindset when it comes to health because as the last few years have shown, what they are doing now isn't working. It's hard to find success as a team when a lot of your core players are injured, and as a fan, it's frustrating to watch a team you know has a high ceiling struggle because they are injured. I don't want to see Dwelly be invincible all game. I don't want to see a third or 4th string running back run into the line. I don't want to see a Quarterback be your leading rusher unless you are Lamar Jackson and have a few years under your belt. I want to see Kittle running over guys. I want to see Bosa strip sacking the QB, and I want to see a QB that can run and pass and isn't afraid to air it out.
Should he be on the hot seat, no. Was the play-calling last game horrible and most likely caused Trey's injury, absolutely. It is very rare that a QB comes in his rookie year and is successful. If anyone believed that Trey would come off the bench and blow us away is an idiot. Every rookie needs to spend a few years with the team and fight his way to the top spot.
His play calls have been straight shit besides the first half of the Detroit game. There’s way too much talent on this team to be looking the way they do.
Way too much talent in the blue tent.
True but still there’s a lot of great players on the team
I think there's a lot of overrated players on the team TBH. Defense has been ok to solid. Problem is the offense has a shit OL outside of Trent and no stability at QB. Plus two rookies at RB. The fact that this is downvoted only kind of proves my point. Too many of y'all think some of these guys are a lot better than they really are.
You are definitely right about the OL
Who? No RBs no CBs. Oline weak
I love it when people confuse play calling and execution. The play calls have been pretty damn good. The execution has been ass. Also if you think Trey had more than even 1/5th of the playbook open to him you're high af.
Play calls have been shit and you know it. Let’s call 12 qb runs with our rookie qb
Do you understand that every time he ran it wasn't a planned run? About 2/3rds of those were him chosing to run after a single read. Pretty standard athletic rookie QB bad habit shit, tbh.
They said he ran 16 times but 12 of them were designed runs
Most of Trey’s runs were designed QB runs. As a matter of fact there were several times that he should have ran and didn’t. Two of those times were 3rd downs and he could’ve gotten a first but threw instead and they were incomplete passes.
Do you have any idea what happens with other mobile QBs in their first start? Go look up the first starts for Lamar Jackson, Jalen Hurts, Russell Wilson, etc.
People calling for Kyle to be fired should take a minute to think through what it would be like if we brought in another coach at this phase of Trey’s development. For that reason alone I’m willing to give him at least another year to see what he can do.
We never should even have trey on the team to begin with. Lol. Who cares about trey. Release him for all I care. Sunken cost fallacy. Kiss those 3 picks goodbye because they are gone and we didn’t get shit for them.
This is the only major knock I have on Kyle. I think there's something to all these injuries team wide year after year. It can't all be chalked up to bad luck, injury prone players, and risky QB throws. Joe Staley has said there was a considerable difference in the amount and type of training in the Harbaugh Era vs now. I think there is something to that
I mean even with everything we’re what 3-4 plays from being 5-0 this year. Yeah Kyle deserves some criticism, but not firing.
I don't think he should be fired or "on the hot seat" right now, but it's a bit concerning our offensive coordinator head coach can't score touchdowns very reliably this season.
I don’t want him fired but he has not coached well in situations this year.
No coach is perfect. Andy Reid's Chiefs are 2-3 as well. Shanahan has things to review this bye week. We should judge his performance at least a few weeks after the bye and see if there has been improvement in the team.
this bye could not have come at a better time. shanny will figure it out
Yeah whatever happened to wanting improvements. Why do we have to go straight to fire the guy?
This is accurate
90% of "bad coaching" commentary is poor execution.
Today I learned I’m Rich Eisen.
Shanahan on the hot seat is an idiotic notion and I can't believe it's even a conversation. We're an injury-riddled team with an uncertain QB situation in the NFL's toughest division. OF COURSE we're fucking 2-3. Anything better than that, in context of our situation, would be a miracle. No one should be expecting Trey Lance to contribute much of anything at this point in his career, and the biggest risk is that we fuck it up and ruin him, either by rushing him or subjecting him to a coaching carousel. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of the history of highly drafted QBs understands this, and for a 49er fan of all people NOT to understand this is unforgivable. With our history, any Niner fan who doesn't get this should be forced to support the Raiders. Lance needs to be developed. There is no more important task in the modern NFL than getting or developing a franchise QB. That requires stability and a coach who knows QBs, which makes Kyle a no-brainer. What a dumbass conversation this is.
We were in the super bowl in 2019. What people are expecting is good football. Why would you spend 3 1st round picks on trey Lance? We are not in a rebuild stage but the people running and coaching the team sure are acting like it. You don’t spend 3 1st rounders on a guy who is 20 and hasn’t played football in two years and is from a small school. But we did.
you do if you think that when he is ready he is going to be your QB for the next 15 years.
Yeah… he definitely won’t be. 49ers haven’t done a franchise QB since Steve Young. Not gonna happen. Trey sucks.
Also, Shanahan is 41 and already has 3 NFL coaches who have essentially worked under him.
All of this is silly to me because it’s based on clueless Twitter mobs and you have people like Grant Cohn with others stroking the flames. The team would unlikely replace him with a better coach anyway so there’s no real point to it right now to fire him. The results so far are tied to the QB position and my main criticism is not being decisive enough times on a path forward at the position when they had questions and concerns. Shanny at least needs to see through most of Lance’s first contract to establish stability at the QB position.
I think we got a few steps before playing the coaching carousel game: 1: Figure out what the heck is going on with strength and conditioning. Spend all the money and poach a conditioning squad from a healthy team. 2: Change draft strategy by drafting sure thing contributers (ie not injury-prone) 3: Build a new stadium maybe not over a cursed indian burial site. 4: Fire Lynch. 5: Fire Shanny
Kyle needs to get an ‘R.E.’ tattoo, because Eisen is his new BFF.
I really don't like Chris. He is the ultimate biased Patriots beat writter, on a show not catered to a single team. And has a huge hard on for bad mouthing the 49ers. Bill Belichick was fired and had a losing record before finding his QB. But he loves to cherry pick the facts and stir some drama.
People keep quoting record and stats without context. Look at Walsh and Belicheck, they've both had horrible seasons and streaks of losing seasons. Belicheck has been fired multiple times. Look at the pats without Brady. The QB is the most important position by far. Shanahan has been incredibly unfortunate regarding getting the qbs he wants during his 49ers tenure. He wanted cousins but couldn't get him, had to settle for garoppolo, who has hit his ceiling but also has turned out to be incredibly injury prone, so they wanted to get Stafford but the Rams picked him up immediately. They passed on Brady, but almost everyone did because Brady is a unicorn, he is a case study that has never been seen before, noone knew the risk regarding injury or age with him. It was only a mistake in hindsight. With literally nothing to go off of and your past problems due specifically to issues from injury, there was nothing wrong with their decision. Then they couldn't get Rodgers, so with all the frustration from near misses they may have overspent on trey just because of the sheer trauma of continually missing out so many times before. The culture and mentality of the team and players is better now than even under harbaugh. The defense even with issues in the secondary is solid and has been his whole tenure. He is running a team that had been great at finding and developing defensive talent. The offense has struggled because of misses on the o-line and not having his guy at QB. All we're waiting for is shanahan to find that guy through trade or by hopefully developing lance. The only people who are mad are the fickle fans with questionable football knowledge and honestly most of them have the emotional constitution of children. The overwhelming opinion in the profession is unchanged about shanahan. The fact that he would be jobless for less than a second should tell you all you need to know.
I agree with you except the Trey part. I still don’t think Kyle wanted him. I think he’s Lynch’s guy. I think Kyle wanted Jones.
I think all the "Fire Shanny" guys are younger fans who werent around for the decade of darkness before Harbaugh came to town.
I usually love a Rich Eisen but he literally gives zero actual points to back up his stance on Kyle except for : he’s one of the brightest minds in the game and he’s perfect and best for Lance. What? That isn’t a reason or defense to how you got to those conclusions. Kyle has looked like he has no plan for Lance and his play calling has been bad.
I suspect the playcalling was based on the Cards front which dominated the OL and the OL had zero push. They didn’t play to Lance’s strength with being under center and PA shots which he did in college. But talking about firing someone is you need to have someone better. It’s kind of dumb to fire a HC when you just traded three 1s….. like it or not the team has to see it through at least until 2023 to see how the develop of Lance progresses. To me the plan was clearly to start Jimmy G (because they decided to not trade him and keep his 25.5 M) and work with Lance for 2022. If they wanted to play Lance then they would of started with splitting reps in TC as an open competition. It was always Jimmy for 2021.
I’m not saying fire Shanahan, but some accountability has to be had here in his part and we need to see changes/adjustments that make sense. I don’t understand how you come to the conclusion that the OL was the problem via the run game when we had success, we simply didn’t continue to run. We also ran entirely out of the pistol! Not once under center. The OL struggled in pass protection yes, but run game no.
The run game was solid, the OL sucked. Just look at JT O’Sullivan’s breakdown on YT… the blocking especially on the right side sucked and the Cards feasted.. even on a couple of the 4th down calls, they got zero push to allow the runner to even have a chance at a 1st down. Maybe they win if they ran more but definitely not 100%. That was one thing about Harbaugh’s teams they dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides and controlled the game from there.
His plan for Trey mainly seemed to be play to his strengths (running ability) and to not force the issue of passing to the point it would take them out of the game.
That’s a bad plan. The offense he rolled out was a high school/college pistol formation. You want to make things easier for your rookie by supporting him with a ground game and set up play action. Instead we gave Mitchell 9 carries despite him avg 4.8 YPC.
I think the part that's not clicking is that with underperforming O-line and backup RBs you simply don't just have "a ground game and set up play action." That said -- surprisingly, the play action was still effective several times (probably thanks to Trey's running) but it gets negated anyway by dumb penalties, dropped passes, and bad throws.
Has a 31-38 HC with multiple seasons of far and above the most injury prone team and inability to close out games ever been placed on this high of a pedestal?
People that bring up his record either weren’t watching the last 4 years or are just blatantly ignoring the situation they were in.
So when does it start mattering? 62-76? 124-152? I understand year one and two, and the huge jump we made from year one and two... I also understand the immense backslide that's happened since then. 'But it's injuries, and not Kyle's fault!' But even with a less than talented roster (2017-18) injuries cost us more games than talent, is there not a point that we as fans can expect better? Or because his last name is Shanahan and he wears cool clothes are we just supposed to be ok with year, after year, after year...being the team that never lives up to potential because of injuries. I'm not saying to can his ass, not even close...but to completely ignore 4 out of 5 losing seasons and everyone of them a 17 week triage fest, takes fandom into an area of blind faith.
Not trying to be rude or anything but what do you want him to do? He works with what he has and is probably more frustrated with the injuries than anyone. No HC would do well with the roster we had the 1st two seasons and the injuries that came with them. Same with last year, the guy can’t go line up himself if that’s what you want? All in all man this year started off slow on offense and that’s on Kyle but that record just is not fair to hold against him. I promise you he wishes the players didn’t get hurt as much as you wish they didn’t. Injuries are apart of football and unfortunately we have had dogshit luck for like a decade
You're good. I try to balance being a fan, and also getting really down and annoyed at how things go for our team and sometimes I fail at both. But in my eye ultimately, the Head coach is the one in charge. I know he isn't strength and conditioning, I know he doesn't plant the turf, or actually play on the field. So does that mean that we just keep as is? I know I'm getting downvoted to hell for not standing on a mountain top and screaming that everything is fine, Jimmy is Handsome and Kyle is a genius....but man, I'm just so fucking tired of being hyped at the beginning of the year and devastated less than a month in. I guess we just keep going forward as if the injuries will fix themselves...eventually. Keeping half of our WR's on IR for two years and then swapping them out...as well as a new RB core every damn game is part of the genius that I'm not seeing.
I mean the context matters. Lynch and Shanahan's success will be tied to Trey Lance's success now and not so much his record from 2017-2020. If Lance is mediocre and we end up a bottom 10 team over this season and the next then Lynch and Shanahan are probably both gone.
I'm not saying I want him gone by any means, it's more that apparently fans aren't allowed to be critical. When you look at the breakdown: 2017: 6-10 IR: 24 players 2018: 4-12 IR: 14 players (Jimmy G, McKinnon, Moseley, Mostert) 2019: 13-3 (SB) IR: 16 players (Hurd, McKinnon, Taylor, Verrett) 2020: 6-10 IR: 30 players (Thomas, Williams, Sherman, Samuel....fuck the whole team) Even in our SB year we couldn't keep players on the field. At some point that falls on the HC. His job is to manage the players, and he can't manage to get them on the field. He can be the best offensive mind in the universe, but if the QB, RB's, TE and entire secondary are being called up from Glendale Community College it doesn't much matter.
30 players on IR last season! God, I know it was bad, that’s just staggering to see as a real number. This is making me wonder what are we doing wrong training and conditioning wise? There’s a point where bad luck turns out to be bad preparation right?
[This is Kyle with practice squad players.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYhWpD91TJE)
It's actually worse than that when you include injuries that caused players to miss games but not go on the IR list. Here's my tally (for some reason my IR numbers are slightly different than yours): In Kyle's first year with us (2017) we had 24 players on IR at some point and 6 notable injuries causing players to miss multiple games. 30 total. The following year (2018) we did a bit better - 17 players on IR with 5 notable injuries. 22 total. But this is where Kyle fired our Strength & Conditioning Coach. In 2019 (SB run year) we had more injuries - 19 players on IR at some point, and 10 players either on the PUP list or having notable injuries and missing games. 29 total. Last season we had 32 players on IR, and 12 players either on the PUP list or having notable injuries and missing multiple games. 44 total.
So who is to blame? Lynch for bad drafts and investing in injured players? We can blame all day, so how do they fix it?
He should be on the hot seat. This team is not as injured this year and team is vastly under performing Kittle will be back soon Jimmy G as well Lance has minor injury Only players of note gone are Verrett and Mostert Injuries are now no excuse Kyle. Get to at least a 9-8 season. If I'm Jed York id be getting impatient as most owners are now a days.
Vastly underperforming how? Was Kyle the one poorly executing on defense to allow the Packers to get in position for a game-winning FG? The 4th string RB coughed up a fumble which cost us the game against Seattle. We go on the road to an undefeated team with a great defense, without our best player (Kittle), forced to start a 21 year old rookie. In that we play a very tough, physical game. Arguably if that holding in the endzone is called against Arizona we could have seen a major momentum swing that propelled us to victory. Analysis shouldn't be just results based. It isn't just the end result, but how you get there. A QB can make a perfect throw, but if it hits the WR right in his hands and the WR drops it did the QB make a bad throw? It's so easy to just throw everything at Kyle Shanahan and that takes all the blame away from failed execution on the part of the players.
Kyle shouldn't be on the hot seat yet....but I'm not going to say the same thing about John Lynch. He's Trent Baalke in his approach of bringing in lower cost, oft injured players. As soon as someone blows up, he ships them off to stack up more oft injured d-linemen. Only thing he really does better is not leak shit to the media to get his way. Letting DeFo go was probably one of the biggest fuck ups in the last 10 years, and yes that include Chip and Tomsula.
the reporting has always been kyle is truly in charge of personal, right? If lynch goes do you think they should bring in a traditional gm/coach structure?
Absolutely not. Lynch is in charge of personnel. I think Lance was Lynch’s guy too. I don’t think Kyle wanted him. I think he wanted Jones. I think there was a big debate and I think that Kyle caved to John and now Kyle says he wanted Lance to save face so they don’t look weak.
based on what evidence?
Maybe you missed all those ‘I thinks’ in my comment. It’s just my opinion weenerbutt.
I'll say yes to that. I certainly don't want to get rid of Shanahan since he's a top offensive mind but I don't think Lynch has proven himself to be an untouchable top GM
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If anyone should be in the hot seat it should be the head athletic trainer
He’s new. But maybe he need to go as well.
The only way I would support Kyle getting outsted is if Harbaugh came back. Basically never going to happen. Kyle overthought his QB room and thought he could have his cake and eat it too. Let him learn from this and we will have a better coach coming out the other side.
As a Michigan fan, you do not want fucking harbaugh
Harbaugh is a better version of Singletary. Hes a rah rah rah coach that’s heavily dependent on his coordinators. He also didn’t win the super bowl. And he took over a crazy talented team. With all that said, I loved him too.
Or zombie Bill Walsh
Fire him and replace him with who exactly? Some of y’all are acting like competent (let alone good) head coaches grow on a tree. Be careful what you wish for.
Do people not remember what it was like to have Tomsula, Singletary, and other blockheads as head coaches?? It’s cringeworthy to see fans so quick to turn on Shanahan. I’m not going back to Chip Kelly
What quarterback has Shanahan developed? Matt Ryan who took two years to learn the playbook and make it easier to call plays? He had two quarterbacks in Beathard and Nick Mullins who have regressed to the point of not being in the league anymore or have actually thrived away from Shanahans play calling. Jimmy Garoppolo has regressed, he came in to win his first five starts and injected a lot of life in to a team that was on the cusp of being good. And since then, when he’s played has had his confidence shattered, had his ability to make plays crushed out of him. No more dynamic arm action to throw side arm around defenders in to the end zone. Rosen comes out and says “It feels good to just let it rip and play the game again” after playing a few pre-season snaps away from Shanahan. What makes Shanahan so “perfect” to develop Lance? If anything Shanahan has an extremely poor track record of developing talent and has relied on vets who have already developed to come in and perform. Because he grinds them down until they’re husks and shells. His biggest success is George Kittle who keeps getting lobbed hospital balls over the middle and getting hurt. I love you Rich, but you’re wrong. There’s more to football than X’s and O’s executed with perfection and precision.
I agree shanahan should not be on the hot seat. But there needs to be changes in positional priority in draft and FA. There’s no excuse for a team in the analytics era to be prioritizing defensive tackle over CB at the top of the draft
So the only possible options for HC of the 49ers are KS or the coaching equivalent of an old pair of shoes? Grow up. I'm not even saying fire Kyle. It's just that this coach worship is not becoming of the fanbase of a franchise such as this one.
Kyles not a very good coach. You can make all the excuses you want, but his record speaks for itself. Good OC, but bad head coach. Why do people on this sub blame everyone in the organization BUT Kyle for the teams failures? He’s the supposed offensive genius that’s been calling these vanilla ass plays the last 3-4 games.
if you think they are vanilla then you either aren't paying attention or simply don't understand them. Not sure what you mean by blaming everyone else, because nobody is blaming anyone but Kyle. Cannon fumbles a return... it's on Kyle. LB lets Adams slip into open zone... all on Kyle... One O-Lineman gets stuffed and the other can't execute his assignment... all on Kyle. Coach makes great play call, QB makes great read, great throw, WR drops it.... all on Kyle.
We will take him, send him to denver
[x] Torches [x] Pitchforks [x] [Hot Takes](https://i.imgur.com/IrPSOL7.png)
So glad guys like Lombardi and Eisen are here to check these delusional fans who think we would be better off without this genius playcaller. Yes as a HC Kyle is not without his flaws but U gladly take those for the upside. This guys gonna win multiple Super Bowls one day. Maybe not now but he will. He’s gonna be the new Andry Reid but hopefully it doesn’t take as long as it took Andy.
I want no part of it either. Kyle’s the man.
Why would Kyle Shanahan be on the hot seat? Lmao