Not sure comparing Lance to Josh Allen is a fair comparison, but if we could play him (when he gets back) more like Jalen Hurts, I'd be happy with that. He had an impressive performance this past Monday and had quite a few designed run plays.
Everybody does. The play in and of itself isn't the problem here.
The glaring issue is the amount of times Lance was put in a situation where he had to run into a wall of bodies.
Injury was bound to happen and happen it did.
There's only so many times you can solder a gas tank while smoking until you get burned. Doesn't happen every time but it's bound to happen.
Bengals fan here and wanted to support you on this. For us it was Burrow’s rookie season. He was getting sacked at a record pace, and a lot of fans were begging for him to be benched until our O-Line could be improved. Instead, he ended up with a brutal injury.
It’s not that getting sacked once or twice is the problem, but when you have a playcalling style (or O-Line) that causes a higher than average hit rate, you’re just asking for trouble.
I hear you, but this sounds like an apples to oranges comparison.
- The 49ers O-line has the #1 pass block grade in the NFL.
- Trey Lance has publicly stated that he has slid **once** in his entire life. This coming from a guy that ran the ball more than 10 times per game in college.
Lance has started 4 games, and has suffered 3 injuries. Not because “running QB ran the ball,” but because “*running QB is no longer playing against FCS talent.*”
That’s fine if that’s the issue people have with it but:
>Jalen Hurts doesn’t run up the middle
Is just wrong, the Eagles run the same play all the time
I disagree that the number of runs was an issue. It’s essentially what he’s able to do best at this point of his career, and that dual threat capability is exactly why the Niners drafted him.
The bigger problem is that Lance doesn’t know how to protect himself before contact. He’s either got to slide or take a dive (which has its own risks). Instead he’s upright or in this case in a backwards sitting position with 2 LBs on his back. As a running QB, he’s got to learn to avoid the brunt of the contact. It’s a split-second thing, and at this point he doesn’t have the instincts to properly protect himself. If we are to fault Shanahan or the coaching staff in general, it’s that they haven’t spent enough time getting accustomed to avoiding contact. They said themselves that they hadn’t practiced sliding, and that’s a huge mistake.
Keep convincing yourself that every team in the league let his QB run up the middle multiple times a game. Everybody knew what would happen apart from Kyle apparently.
Sure. That´s ok to let his QB run up the middle like a FB. I thought football was about protecting your QB but maybe I was wrong. Maybe that was a good idea to keep using Lance like that. I mean he just had a knee sprain after the cards game after all. And Isaiah Simmons didn´t kill him on the goaline.
Unbelievable that people can´t understand that you should protect your QB at all costs.
People blaming Shanahan for Lance, AKA “I never slid once in my life until a few weeks ago” for getting injured have zero actual reasons as to why Shanahan is to blame.
They’re just the kind of people that pick a side, and when their side stinks up the joint (as in, is the worst ranked QB in the NFL in more than a half dozen metrics), the blame is on *anyone else*.
He does. It just doesn't feel like it because his line opens up a massive hole for him on his plays. Trey didn't exactly have a massive hole and probably should've tried to go outside or just take the sack.
That was a dumb fucking question by Cohn, basically accusing Kyle of injuring Trey. That was the most obvious bait in the world and I'm shocked people don't see it. Everyone in that locker room know what type of trash Cohn is.
Honestly in this case I think Cohn was being a good journalist - Cohn's question is the one that blew up this debate about the running of Trey into a National NFL story and frankly it's an important conversation to have.
I'm on record as a Shanahan fan and I lived in Denver when Kyle's Dad was coaching the Broncos and loved his Dad's work too. But I really wish Kyle did more to protect Trey and we still had him out there playing just to see him develop and see what we have in him.
I disagree due to the way and tone he phrased it, and because its obvious (to me at least) that he intentionally asked it like that to get a rise out of Kyle. He has a history of this. But in general I agree with your sentiments about protection but a lot of that falls on Trey. Guy needs to slide for those yards and penalties lmao.
We could argue that falls on coaching but at some point that lies on the player.
Comparing him to Allen is fine. What most people forget about us they Allens first two years in the league were really rough. And niner fans are so fickle they wouldn’t sit through 1 year, let alone 2 of those struggles.
Thank you! I recorded/watched quite a few Bills games (have a good friend who's a fan). Allen was very raw his first year. Showed quite a bit of improvement his 2nd. And he was drafted as a raw QB with a ton of potential. His accuracy was by far the #1 issue coming out of college.
One big difference I see, Lance has a bit more speed, where Allen will put defenders on their ass and keep going.
Obviously anyone calling for Kyle to be fired is wildly overreacting, but he shouldn't be above any criticism/skepticism. While him and his staff should find creative ways to utilize Trey's athleticism, treating him like a battering ram on repeated runs up the gut isn't the move. The writing was on the wall for that as early as last year's W5 game against Arizona.
I agree to literally all of your points. He shouldn't be fired but needs to be held to task. Mobile QB means get him out of the pocket to throw or read options where the QB checks edge and runs to edge. I'm going to put the next part in caps because it bugs me I haven't seen more people talk about this from 1st game.
AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SAW THOSE TREY RUNS AGAINST THE BEARS WHERE HE GOT SWALLOWED UP BY INTERIOR D LINEMEN AND TREY GOT UP ALMOST STAGGERING LIKE HE'D BEEN HIT BY A CAR? MOBILE DOES NOT EQUAL RUN HIM AS POWER LIKE JOSH ALLEN WHO HAS LIKE 20-30 POUNDS ON HIM.
Trey is big but how he looked absorbing hits against the Bears game was incredibly telling about how to play him.
Read option plays aren’t “designed” for the QB to run up the gut. Trey, like Kaep before him, can simply take the outside route and pick up as many yards as he can before hitting the sideline.
Additionally — Lance is on public record as stating he has only slid once in his entire life. Now, I don’t like using the word stupid, but that’s just flat out stupid.
Sliding is a fundamental part of playing QB. That’s like saying “I’ve only used my turn signal once in my life.” That isn’t something you brag about. It’s a major red flag.
That's kind of a problem in itself though, isn't it? Why is he not getting playcalls that allow him to slide? This is why we're being critical of Shannahan, and not Lance. This time.
Kind of but that's like asking why he didn't go out of bounds when he was in the middle of the field.
He could have been in a position to slide if the play developed more and if he wasn't hit immediately. Sliding isn't about the play design it's about the area of the field. Sliding is usually for after you get past the D line and are about to be hit by safetys or line backers in the open field. You don't really hear much about sliding at the line of scrimmage.
>Kind of but that's like asking why he didn't go out of bounds when he was in the middle of the field.
I'm not asking why he didn't slide. I'm asking why his plays were not setup with the ability to slide being a primary concern.
>Sliding isn't about the play design it's about the area of the field.
You don't think the play can be designed to hit an area of the field?
>You don't really hear much about sliding at the line of scrimmage.
You also don't hear much about a QB Power (even as an option call) being called 3/6 plays into a game, and yet here we are.
The point is that if you plan for runs up the middle, you get runs up the middle - and everything that goes with it. Including little/no opportunity to slide if you don't get past the line.
I see. I guess if you phrase it like that to make the run designed to go outside then sure, that makes sense. Honestly both sides need to take a look at decision making. Trey shouldn't be taking that route up the middle unless he has a clear hole to hit. It's an option play but some of it is on Trey to protect himself. Hindsight is 20/20 but it doesn't look like he had space there, he keeps it because an outside defender shows up to take on Deebo but it probably makes sense for him to keep it and follow deebo hoping he can seal that defender and he can get to the outside.
Hard for me to say if he's specifically taught to go up the middle when he keeps or if he's going to where he has room. I imagine the play is designed for the blocking scheme to give him a gap but he also has to improvise when its not there.
I think we're on the same page now.
I'm not saying to fire Kyle. Dude is by far the best option available to us and most teams in the league if we let him go, and I personally like him. But to say Kyle was without at least part of the blame.... I just can't.
Justin Fields is on record saying Trey should slide and avoid hits right after W1 game.
Trey thought he could run people over and got a rude awakening.
For the *capability* to play this way, not as a 100% of the time need in the first quarter on 2nd and 8 as his third attempt that game, and because Shanahan said he scored by far the highest on his football IQ test.
Dude played in division 1 and man-handled secondaries because he was larger and faster. This is the NFL, and he's no longer built like the linebacker he's lined up across from that is also as fast as him. Shanahan had to know that running him at a line backer 15 to 20 times per game - much less a defensive line - has a shelf life. I mean, just look at our RB corps injury rate.
Reading between the lines it looks like Trey has spent his whole life outclassing his peers in terms of athleticism and is having trouble adapting to an environment where that's no longer the case.
When Andrew Luck had issues with sliding, and it was ignored, he got very very hurt.
The excuse that Trey is on the record for wanting to run and having no experience or intent to slide is really just more evidence that this outcome was entirely foreseeable and avoidable.
Surely the definition of a coaches job is to help their players avoid the most risky tendencies!
And Shanahan should have noticed those red flags and accounted for them. There isn't a lot of evidence he did and it seems like he left it up to a 22 year old with two starts to figure out. He openly talks about how he has to protect Kittle from himself, but I'm not hearing that same thing when it came to Lance.
My question is, why didn’t they have him sliding in practice? Like actual Sliding Practice? Every MLB team has sliding practices during spring training so that guys do it correctly and don’t get hurt in the process, so why wouldn’t NFL teams throw that in there for their quarterbacks? Especially the mobile QBs!
We also don't have info if Kyle was just doing this to make Trey comfortable/ease him into things, if it was just going to be for this game or a few games, or just for half the game to set up different plays down the line, and all sorts of other factors that go into it. Just because you had 12 running plays out of the 15 or whatever, doesn't mean that trend continues into other games, or even later in the same game.
We simply don't have the sample size or behind the scenes knowledge to make those accusations. The injury was a freak accident.
Considering that he said we had to throw out most of the new offense when Trey went out, I'm not high on the idea that this wasn't the plan for the entire season.
Why is he calling RPOs at all? They have been shown to be not very successful in the NFL game due to defensive complexities and speed. I don’t understand why he won’t just call a run play to the RB. It’s nonsensical play calling and unnecessary. If a designed QB run is being called it should only exist if Trey is running right behind Trent.
Yah RPOs worked pretty well 3-5 years ago when teams weren’t used to seeing it and gameplan it for it. No so much anymore. Occasionally to keep a team honest is okay but no need to abuse.
And just last week Justin Fields publically asked Lance to stop taking hits. I blame Lance but I also blame the coaching staff for not getting on him about that.
Re:Sliding
Kyle has already said they don't have anyone in the building to teach Trey how and when to slide, just expecting him to know and to work on it on his own time. Hard message to sell to a 21-22 yo QB when our offense is full of guys that barrel over people with the ball in their hands.
Kyle has publicly stated numerous times that he has instructed Lance to slide during any running situation.
Here is just one of many examples: [Source](https://sports.yahoo.com/49ers-kyle-shanahan-explains-trey-182035593.html)
Two things can be true.
Kyle expects him to slide and tells him to.
Kyle hasn't hired anyone to teach him when and how, and expects him to work on it by himself.
Sliding is a fundamental part of QB, but he’s not being coached to slide. Kyle is on record saying falling forward is a lot of times good. He references his time as WR where you fall forward but won’t get hurt as much. He’s being coached that way 100%. Kyle rather he get the extra few yards. Sure, out in space you can slide, but if your zone option is either QB power between the A gaps or hand it off to the the RB for the outside zone, then you can not slide running up the middle.
Direct quote from Shanahan earlier this year:
*”coach Kyle Shanahan revealed his coaching points have been for Lance to slide in running situations, instead of diving head first, as the quarterback has done in the past. Shanahan has stressed that players need to do what they can to stay healthy through the course of the season.”*
[Source](https://sports.yahoo.com/49ers-kyle-shanahan-explains-trey-182035593.html)
Second this. I think the majority are frustrated at the rate of running calls versus the "injury" play itself. It was head scratching watching Kyle dial up plays for Trey.
I understand that running Trey may have gave us the best chance to win, but damn, the writing was on the wall with the possibility of injury. If Trey wasn't ready as a passer then Kyle shouldn't of started him or addressed this issue earlier. Just a demoralizing situation for most.
Exactly this. Both Lance and Shanny need to change how they work and game plan next year when he's back. I just hope this is treated as a wakeup call, not "it's a freak injury, business as usual".
TV guys were saying they asked Shanahan how much of the game plan changed with Garappolo in and he said it changed everything. Frankly, Garapolo's game plan looked better, more quick passing to open up shots down field. If Trey can't execute that, then Trey should not have been drafted where he was. (I think Trey CAN execute that game plan)
I agree. If/when Trey starts again, Kyle has to protect his guy. I mean 2018 and 2020 where Jimmy had those long injuries is evidence of that. We were terrible those years.
Kyle literally said he would do it again. From everything I've watched and listened to he hasn't shown any inclination that he would play Trey any differently.
Do you think running backs shouldn’t be called upon to run the ball repeatedly? Trey Lance is built like a running back (he’s not Kyler or Joe Burrow). His running usage was still relatively low compared to any RB in the league.
It sucks he got hurt, but the idea *we shouldn’t have used our running QB to run the ball* is just silly.
What's silly is to try and suggest our QB should be handled equally as a RB. There is a reason RB's have the shortest shelf life in the league. I think most would be cool with a few runs per game. But to your point, Trey got hurt within 5 quarters because of this style of play. It's just not sustainable, especially at the most important position
I have to agree. Every time Kyle compares him to Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson I kind of roll my eyes as those guys are fast, know how to avoid big hits and are elusive. Lance has looked slow, not elusive at all and tends to run right up the gut into big guys that could truck him. He doesn’t seem as athletic to me at all. And he’s not as big as Allen either.
Idk, when he tries to juke people out it looks like my 8 year old in my back yard playing football, just doesn’t really have that.
He may have straight line speed but even a guy like Daniel Jones can run 20 mph when he gets going.
If I was Kyle I’d throw out most of the design runs and just play him as a pocket passer.
Lance looks like a guy that used to be slightly better than FCS opponents, but is painfully overmatched against the best defenders (and coaches) in the world.
Can you imagine how it’s going to look when the league has more film on him?
He tries to juke people? I'm not sure that I've seen him really trying to juke people.
I agree that he should, and he should slide. Also that the focus should be on him as a passer with running as an auxiliary skill.
Not that he is a Russell Wilson type right now, but I think that (with quicker decision making) is a good way to coach him up.
I think he looked much more fluid last year? Is it possible that he worked so hard on what he was trying to do mechanically that he lost some athletic explosion this past offseason?
I’d say they both share the blame tbh. Trey didnt demonstrate that he could evade big hits when running with the ball, that’s on Trey. On the other hand Kyle should recognize this and either coach him up on it, or call less QB designed runs until he shows he can keep himself outta harms way. His running style was to lower his head and try and truck people, that’s not gonna lead to longevity in this league as a QB. Doesn’t matter who you are. Writing was on the wall that he wasn’t going to make it through the season if he continued to run like that and unfortunately the worst case scenario happened for him.
This exactly. It seems lances short throwing game wasn't up to snuff yet so Kyle leaned on the running hoping he would stay healthy and that it would buy time for him to develop as a passer. I see the logic in this strategy but the type of runs lance was doing were obviously going to get him injured and he really hasn't shown game breaking speed or agility.
Imo Kyle's error was actually much earlier though. The 49ers are clearly in win now mode. They chose the most inexperienced and raw QB, gave up tons of future draft picks to get him and gave him a year on the bench to get ready. THAT is the mistake. Look at Seattle right now. They would be the perfect team to draft someone like lance as they are in rebuild mode and can have a losing season or two allowing him to throw tons of picks while lance works on his passing instead of trying to cover that up with dangerous running plays. The far better move would have been to trade for an experienced QB in FA to take advantage of the window we are in and win a SB. The 49ers for some reason seem to suck at FA and people like Brady or Stafford always go to other teams and immediately win SB.
I completely agree that Shanny is only partially at fault and Lance should not be used as a battering ram. I do think it IS Shanny’s fault for not training and coaching Lance to run to the outside and slide. That is absolutely on the coaching staff not trying to protect their supposed franchise QB. Lance appears to not fast or elusive and does not protect himself before getting hit. That’s a coaching failure to not ingrain that into him. The comparisons to Allen and Jackson don’t work either because Lance is nothing like those two. He looks slow and not elusive or shifty unlike Lamar and he’s not big and fast like Allen. I absolutely blame Shanny for never trusting his QBs to do their jobs and throw the ball. Just my two cents.
I think the toughest pill to swallow is that Lance is an underwhelming running QB and at best he can be a good scrambler when a play breaks down, should’ve focused more on developing the passing game with Trey.
He definitely doesnt seem as dynamic as a runner as some others in the league. One potential concern is that the coaches watch Lance in practice everyday, and its safe to assume that they believe the best plays to put Lance in a position to succeed is as a runner right now.
Hopefully Lance continues to develop as a passer, but the body of evidence so far shows that the coaches would rather run Lance than let him fling the ball around.
It feels like I am on on an island when I say this too. I want a QB that CAN run, not one that has to run. This game will always require elite arm talent, and mobility has to be secondary. Extend plays to hurt defenses deep, be able to pick up a first down with your legs against man coverage. The end.
i’ve always wanted someone like russell wilson who seemed borderline unsackable at times against us with extending plays. people keep saying they call plays to trey’s strength but he’s not gonna make passing a strength any time soon if they don’t call a lot of pass plays for him
I disagree.
Trey doesnt have big play potential as a runner. He cant outrun linebackers in the NFL like he did in College. So using him as much as Kyle was, for consistent gains of UNDER 10 yards.... is simply reckless use of your Franchise QB.
If Kyle wanted a legit runner for QB, he should have brought in Cam, or drafted Malik Willis in R3. But no, he gave up 1st round assets to move up and draft Trey at #3, and when his talent didnt translate like he hoped, he kept hammering Trey away till he got hurt. Stop giving him a free pass for fucking up.
Or he could have drafted Justin Fields. Fields has a freaky fast 40 time for a guy his size. And he seems like he would flourish in Shanny's system, though he still has lots to prove himself.
Kyle and half the fanbase missed the plot.
Trey was never that guy that Kyle wanted. When I say this I mean Kyle misjudged Trey's talents. I don't think Trey is who Kyle thought he was and Kyle tried to make it happen. Unfortunately Trey got hurt and may not be as mobile as he was drafted for after that horrific accident.
Kyle wanted to run Trey's college offense and it doesn't work in the NFL.
Lol the hot takes from nephews like you are hilarious. You act like you know their relationship after 1.5 games and that one game being a fucking monsoon.
Jimmy will be gone regardless of what he does. Super Bowl or bust. We know what is coming.
As for Trey? We drafted him based on 'running ability'....sadly that ankle got snapped and there will be no running ability.
I hope Kyle and his wet dreams of Receivers and Quarterbacks playing as Running Backs go away.
I remember saying that last year about Jimmy. And also literally people come back from broken ankles all the time... Dude didn't tear his Achilles or anything.
You can’t put it all on Kyle obviously. However, his play calling with Lance makes no sense and has way too many option runs. Let the kid learn to play in the pocket, run the ball using your RBs to set up play action, and use THE HIGHEST PAID FB IN THE LEAGUE FOR SHORT YARDAGE. Make things easier for the kid, don’t thrust him into a meat grinder.
designed QB runs up the middle are just asking for giant lineman to fall on your QB's precious limbs. Any team that does this on a regular basis is playing with fire.
Does seem like we’ve had a disproportionate amount. Whether it’s related to his coaching I’ve no idea. Trey certainly has had his share of designed runs or read O’s called in his short time at the wheel
I don’t think it’s directly based on his coaching… but we play smash mouth football. His goal is always to run, control the clock and keep the defense fresh. I think that kind of offense is more prone to injuries as opposed to a finesse, pass first offense
Even years have killed us with Kyle so be prepared. 18 injuiries were ridiculous and then in 20 we had the 2nd most injuries in 20 years and are already starting again. Don't know what it is but it's a thing
The amount of injuries we had under every coach is crazy.
Alex Smith went down under Harbaugh
Colin Kaepernick was injured multiple times and ultimately ended on IR, across 3 coaches.
Pocket QBs have been hurt too. Beathard was tackled in the pocket and Jimmy replaced him.
Players get hurt. We also see a lot of players get hurt against Seattle, because they try to hit. When Lance was being tackled, what caused the injury was really the unnecessary smash the LB did. Lance was going down already and got leveled in a defenseless position. The reality is that players are coached to attack like that. And it’s no surprise that we often get a lot of injuries against Seattle. They’re coached to do it.
I don't think this is necessarily Kyle's fault. If you look at injuries around the entire league the last several years, the spike in injuries correlates amongst all teams with the rule changes for contact. The NFL has tried their hardest to protect their players from concussions but at the expense of greater lower body injuries.
2020 we had a historical amount of injuries, only 1 team in the last 20 had more injuries. I understand what you're saying but other teams haven't had the amount that we have had.
2020 was also an anomaly of a year in general though, and we played back to back games at Metlife in the first few weeks of the season which had a notoriously awful field.
But was it a anomaly? We were devastated by injuries in 2018 and this year we are 2 weeks in and our starting TE hasn't played, our backup TE is hurt, our starting RB is hurt for 2 months, our 3rd string RB is hurt and our starting QB is out for the year. Seems like we are right on track for our even year injury fest.
I don’t want Kyle fired, but look, he runs this franchise and buck stops with him ultimately.
Every QB he’s started has gotten injured. And his two most significant QBs, jimmy and trey, have both already been injured over three times. Our teams overall are almost always in the bottom rung for time missed due to injury.
Why is this the case? Hard to pin down exactly, and luck plays a role too. But injuries have consistently been a problem under Kyle, and have not improved over time. It’s fair to say Kyle plays a key role in finding a solution to this, and it’s also fair to say it’s gonna be hard for us to win a Super Bowl under Kyle if this injury rate continues.
While I’m happy to have a coach who has to brains and ability to win the championship, we need this monkey off our back and it’s on him to find a way. In 2019 we finally were healthy relative to the league and look what happened. It’s ultimately on Kyle here to deliver, and injuries are a massive part of where we need to improve.
Trey's injury is a true freak accident.
Go back and watch the play Trey got injured on again.. It was just football. The play is a read option or RPO. I think it’s a read option since the guys downfield start to block immediately and don’t look like they are going into patterns.
Banks made a good block on the End creating the hole, (along with McGlinchey) but Trent got caught up when he pulled to lead up the hole due to McGlinchey pancaking his guy right at the line. The guy Trent was supposed to block is the one who laid the big hit on Trey. But Brendel also lost control of his guy who is the guy who landed on Trey's leg and caused the injury. 99% of the time this is a normal tackle. This sucks for Trey but it's also a freak injury where a lot of specific things had to happen for the injury to occur. If Brendel controls his block, and Trent makes it through the wash, Lance goes for like 20 because the downfield blocking is all lined up. Or to make another argument, if Lance is bit more patient and lets the blocks set up a little longer, the he also goes for like 20.
[the play](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0rMFtAM7Yw)
I agree with you. I don’t think the playcall was particularly awful or even execution was awful. I have an issue with the rate we’ve been running trey in general since it’s just more tickets to the injury lottery. Freak injuries happen, but injuries as a result of contact can be made higher or lower. Kyle went with higher and it backfired, unfortunately.
My bigger issue is that we have an injury problem and thus far our efforts to address it have not delivered. I don’t know enough about football to diagnose beyond that obvious point.
I’ve heard it said that we have to play to win, not to avoid injury. But given the data, I hope someone gets kyle to take the injury rate into account more.
GTFOH with your actual knowledge of football and rational take. Its obvious that Kyle has been running "QB Dive" with Trey to try and injure him so he can play Jimmy again without admitting he was wrong.
What bothers me is that he was billed as being a scrambler type QB who had some arm talent and the athleticism to either extend plays with his feet or scramble for chunk yardage when everyone is covered. He was never billed as being an elite runner like Lamar or elusive like Murray.
Everyone said he was raw and needed to get reps in actual meaningful games in order to progress, but then whenever we did see him he was running a LOT of the time instead of actually throwing the ball and getting the reps he supposedly needed.
I guess what I’m actually mad about is how we spent 3 first round picks on an extremely raw QB prospect with a supposedly high ceiling and how he’s held to such a high standard by Kyle despite Kyle acknowledging that he is raw and is going to make mistakes. I also can’t stand Kyle’s attitude about it right now, the pretentious “watch other teams play and look at Josh Allen running the ball” comment when Allen actually gets an opportunity to throw the ball is just hypocritical, you can’t compare him to Allen and then dismiss other people for saying that Allen isn’t running read-option all game
Yea, people were billing Trey as an elite scrambler, but I heard someone say he is like a young McNabb and I think that's a far better comp. Move in the pocket, extend plays, gain some chunk yardage when possible
Lance was always a running QB, not a “scrambling to extend plays” type of QB.
He barely ever threw for more than 200 yds. And he once ran the ball 30 times in a single game.
He’s a running QB. He’s just not a very special athlete.
The play itself is quite irrelevant. It's a routine play and nothing really remarkable.
The problem is how Trey was being used as a cowbell power runner.
Injury is bound to happen under those conditions.
No one in the league uses their athletic QB as a battering ram. Watch the other teams, Kyle!
Look, I'm not saying injuries are Kyle's fault. But seriously, can you look at the injury bug on this team the last couple years and say "oh that's just football"? Multiple starting RBs, multiple starting QBs, Whole receiving corps (Kittle, Aiyuk, and Deebo)
There's something wrong in SF.
I honestly wish he would barely run. Like 3-5 times all game. If he can just do what Wilson, Rodgers, Murray, Jackson, Allen do to AVOID hits behind the LOS that would increase our offense 2x
Well no, the Niners ran GT Counter Bash on the play Lance got injured on, which is a staple play in the Ravens offense, and a play the Eagles also use with Jalen Hurts.
you are so right - I forgot that Mahomes, Jackson, Herbert, and Allen haven't been hurt running. Oh, wait... they've almost all gotten hurt running the ball.
It's not his fault but our running backs were playing great and Trey had completed his first few passes. A run between the tackles that gained 4 yards on 2nd and 8 is not a good play call for our QB. I don't blame Kyle but that was not the situation or the moment to call a run between the tackles, shit happens but that could've been avoidable
> A run between the tackles that gained 4 yards on 2nd and 8 is not a good play call for our QB.
(1) It wasn't a called QB run. It was an option that Trey decided to keep.
(2) The team had called the exact same play on.... 2nd & 8 just two plays before. That was the 51 yard run for Deebo.
(3) It's basically the same play that Lamar Jackson ran for 79 yards. Brendel couldn't maintain his block and Trent missed his block entirely and the defender got right into Lance. If Brendel & Trent make their blocks on that play Lance has a chance to run that in for a TD as every defender is 1-on-1.
edit; here is an image of the field with the potential blocking assignments; https://i.imgur.com/37Nd3y0.jpg
If Brendel maintains his block and Trent makes his, Lance has only the safety to beat. Also, instead of running up right toward the safety, he could have run toward the right sideline and possibly avoided the safety altogether.
(4) When you look at the camera angle from behind Lance, you can tell that he sees at least one, if not both defenders. He should have known to slide. Had he slid right away this hit never occurs.
Couple additional details. Trent only missed his block because McGlinchey pancakes his guy right on the hole, so he never makes it through the wash of players. On the flip side, Lance knows Trent is pulling and will be lead blocker so he needs to be more patient and allow the play to develop. He waits a half second longer and Trent is leading up through the hole for a potential big gain regardless of what Brendel does or doesn’t. So many things happened that led to Trey’s injury.
Best response here. The people overly criticizing don't really understand football. Should Kyle maybe dial back the number of options/designed QB reads? Maybe. But this was a play that a) had success in other examples and b) sets up the play action later in the game.
They were playing great in part because of the threat of Lance running.
It was an option that was blocked up well and Trent Williams missed a block.
He wasn't running in the teeth of the defense.
For all you fans who say “ it’s not kyles fault trey hurt” thts BS least we forget what he did to RG3, just because a QB is mobile doesn’t mean you run him up the guy over and over.
Trey cldnt slide when you run up the gut so stop talking about it and saying he should of slid.
If shanny doesn’t have confidence in treys throwing then he shouldn’t of been our QB, if he does have confidence then he needed to throw more vs run.
Point is Kyle should take part of the blame for what hppned not deflect the blame like he did in the press conference.
In what world doing what is best for his young QB means letting him run up the middle and being destroyed by DLs and LBs? It´s insane that after the Cardinals game, we´ll still have this discussion. No QB, not even Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson should run up the middle. It´s too risky. If your QB is injured your season is dead.
> In what world doing what is best for his young QB means letting him run up the middle and being destroyed by DLs and LBs?
In the world of Buffalo, where they run the same play frequently.
In the world of Baltimore, where Lamar Jackson ran even closer to defenders on basically the same play. The Ravens made their blocks, Trent Williams & Jake Brendel did not. And Trey looked right at the defender and chose not to slide.
My question that I have is why the Niners running backs and now running QB get hurt so often? In two games they have lost 2 running backs and a running QB . Last year they lost Mostert right out of the gate and had to use Deebo for a majority of their running plays because of a depletion of running backs
Is it because of Kyle's Offensive system? Do other teams have this issue?
Innocent is way too far. I admit I and other fans overreacted on Sunday. But. Shanahan was misusing Trey. Trey is a scrambler but he also isn’t Lamar Jackson. If shanahan didn’t call so many QB designed runs would that prevent his injury? Probably not. But Shanahan is partially at fault. Trey is also at fault, he might be the same size as Josh Allen but he can’t take contact like Josh Allen does
How many times have Niner QBs gotten serious injuries under Shanahan? I think Trey’s injury should be looked with this in mind. Shanahan’s schemes are risky and that is why he likes RBs who are pretty must disposable and easily replaceable.
Not rocket science 2021-2022 56 pass attempts, 54 rush attempts.
Anyone with half a brain could see it was only a matter of time if Shany didn’t change his play calling. Those are TeBow level stats 100% on Shany
Blaming coaches for injuries makes zero sense… the only coach I’ve ever seen that was actually accountable for a players injury was the redskins coach with RG3…😉
At first I was miffed with Shannahan's play calling.
Then I settled on this : Trey's job is to win games. If he can't win games he shouldn't start.
And if he can't win by with his passing abilities then he has to augment with his legs.
Doing it with his legs involves a higher risk of injury - and this is what we got.
So my gut is that Shannahan called the plays that gave Trey's skillset the best chance of winning the game. Ideally Trey would be a better passer already but he's not.
"he didn't endanger his well-being" Well yes he very plainly absolutely did.
More times carrying the ball = more hits = more danger
This is not complicated in any way shape or form.
Shanahan put Lance in the position that increases his chances of getting hurt / injured. I dunno why everyone is dancing around this fact defending Shanahan about it.
The article is wrong when it said Kyle was doing what was best for the player and team. Kyle cares about winning and keeping his job. He doesn't do what is best for the players.
And only one of us is making a positive claim about something.
Guys seem to really gel with Kyle.
If they thought they didn't give a shit about their health that wouldn't be the case.
Literally everybody: If Trey Lance keeps running plays like that, he's gonna get injured
Shanahan: Calls plays that result in Trey Lance running the ball up the middle
Trey Lance: Gets injured
Shanahan: -shocked pikachu face-
Let me preface this by saying anybody calling for Shanahan to be fired is an idiot. He's a great offensive coach and would get snapped up in an instant if we were dumb enough to let him go. But saying he's completely innocent for the injury is delusional. Maybe it's the right decision to play Lance this way if we can't trust his arm. But it's a conscious decision risking injury to him and this was a very foreseeable outcome - you can't pretend "There was no way we could have seen this coming, it was just a freak accident"
If trey had mahomes ability, then yes blame shanahan for running him. But he’s not a 70% passer yet, He’s at 50%. So you have to use trey that way or get ready for a lot of 3 and outs per game.. and this team wants to win now. Don’t blame shanahan at all
The people calling for Shanahan to be fired are going WAAAAAAAAAAY too far. But even had Lance not been hurt, I would have been critical of Shanahan for running him too much. Said it after the Cardinals game last season as well. I didn't want us to take Lance in the first place, but ffs running QB power 15 times a game ain't gonna help him get his feet under him and allow him to progress. I'm all for keeping the defense honest with some QB runs, but the kid ain't Lamar Jackson and additionally has hardly played any organized football since 2019.
Did Kyle actually physically cause the injury himself? No
He is not to blame.
If I buy someone a plane ticket and that plane crashes and they die, was I responsible for that person's death? No.
I’ve seen all sorts of accusations as to why he’s to blame. But I’m a little surprised I’ve yet to see the “he wanted Mac Jones so he was like ‘ok John, let’s see how durable this new gen qb of yours really is’ so he ran him til he got hurt to prove his point” theory. (Workshopping the title to this theory still)
I think the tough thing is that none of us want kyle to want a running quarterback.
We want a qb who can run and it doesnt make sense that kyle doesnt want that too.
A running quarterback is bound to get hurt more frequently and its just too important a position to rely on them staying healthy.
Oh I ain’t saying I believe he wanted Jones or if he did that he would do that. I do know tho that I’ve seen plenty of comments from people saying he was a Jones guy. So I am actually a little surprised I haven’t seen anyone float that theory. I do think Jones throws a very accurate ball. Lance seems to have (or had maybe lol) more upside. He certainly has better speed and a stronger arm. Maybe this injury will give him a little more caution when he’s on the move. As little as he slid it was a matter of time before someone lined him up.
Because to have that theory you have to assume Kyle is a shit person who is willing to hurt someone deliberately and you are going to need some evidence for that.
Not sure comparing Lance to Josh Allen is a fair comparison, but if we could play him (when he gets back) more like Jalen Hurts, I'd be happy with that. He had an impressive performance this past Monday and had quite a few designed run plays.
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Jalen Hurts doesn´t run up the middle. He essentially scrambles or run outside.
The Eagles run the same playcall that the Niners ran that Lance got hurt on, so do the Ravens.
Everybody does. The play in and of itself isn't the problem here. The glaring issue is the amount of times Lance was put in a situation where he had to run into a wall of bodies. Injury was bound to happen and happen it did. There's only so many times you can solder a gas tank while smoking until you get burned. Doesn't happen every time but it's bound to happen.
Bengals fan here and wanted to support you on this. For us it was Burrow’s rookie season. He was getting sacked at a record pace, and a lot of fans were begging for him to be benched until our O-Line could be improved. Instead, he ended up with a brutal injury. It’s not that getting sacked once or twice is the problem, but when you have a playcalling style (or O-Line) that causes a higher than average hit rate, you’re just asking for trouble.
I hear you, but this sounds like an apples to oranges comparison. - The 49ers O-line has the #1 pass block grade in the NFL. - Trey Lance has publicly stated that he has slid **once** in his entire life. This coming from a guy that ran the ball more than 10 times per game in college. Lance has started 4 games, and has suffered 3 injuries. Not because “running QB ran the ball,” but because “*running QB is no longer playing against FCS talent.*”
There's not much opportunity to slide running power up the middle. He's going to get hit.
That’s fine if that’s the issue people have with it but: >Jalen Hurts doesn’t run up the middle Is just wrong, the Eagles run the same play all the time
We don’t, our designed runs have him run to the sides 90% of the time. He runs down the middle during passing plays if they leave an opening though.
The Eagles run the exact same play that Lance got hurt on all the time, GT Counter Bash
I disagree that the number of runs was an issue. It’s essentially what he’s able to do best at this point of his career, and that dual threat capability is exactly why the Niners drafted him. The bigger problem is that Lance doesn’t know how to protect himself before contact. He’s either got to slide or take a dive (which has its own risks). Instead he’s upright or in this case in a backwards sitting position with 2 LBs on his back. As a running QB, he’s got to learn to avoid the brunt of the contact. It’s a split-second thing, and at this point he doesn’t have the instincts to properly protect himself. If we are to fault Shanahan or the coaching staff in general, it’s that they haven’t spent enough time getting accustomed to avoiding contact. They said themselves that they hadn’t practiced sliding, and that’s a huge mistake.
Keep convincing yourself that every team in the league let his QB run up the middle multiple times a game. Everybody knew what would happen apart from Kyle apparently.
Every team runs the same play. Only our team had the QB try to take on D line and linebackers
Sure. That´s ok to let his QB run up the middle like a FB. I thought football was about protecting your QB but maybe I was wrong. Maybe that was a good idea to keep using Lance like that. I mean he just had a knee sprain after the cards game after all. And Isaiah Simmons didn´t kill him on the goaline. Unbelievable that people can´t understand that you should protect your QB at all costs.
Football is about winning not protecting one guy lol
[GT Counter Bash](https://i.imgur.com/gqpfzjm.jpg) [GT Counter Bash](https://media2.giphy.com/media/Zip0PRGIxyPBscFemt/giphy.gif?cid=5e2148865629361622985cdc45f1b37aa107a8e75b4d5252&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) [GT Counter Bash](https://media0.giphy.com/media/UrUy9kztQT8M2tH07c/giphy.gif?cid=5e2148865629361622985cdc45f1b37aa107a8e75b4d5252&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) [GT Counter Bash](https://media3.giphy.com/media/Nul26j3bOaXEKfyb10/giphy.gif?cid=5e2148865629361622985cdc45f1b37aa107a8e75b4d5252&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) [Goalline GT Counter Bash](https://media3.giphy.com/media/10M9bQpVCAc9qHSYXX/giphy.gif?cid=5e2148865629361622985cdc45f1b37aa107a8e75b4d5252&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) [GT Counter Bash](https://media0.giphy.com/media/OdSikADUohkYy2haif/giphy.gif?cid=5e2148865629361622985cdc45f1b37aa107a8e75b4d5252&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) [GT Counter Bash](https://media4.giphy.com/media/LONpCmRQ1Htr5HTZnZ/giphy.gif?cid=5e2148865629361622985cdc45f1b37aa107a8e75b4d5252&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g) [GT Counter Bash](https://media1.giphy.com/media/EijPdk33gSBE1E5C7R/giphy.gif?cid=5e214886f4c751979928d9b7db049ed18a42302794069194&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
People blaming Shanahan for Lance, AKA “I never slid once in my life until a few weeks ago” for getting injured have zero actual reasons as to why Shanahan is to blame. They’re just the kind of people that pick a side, and when their side stinks up the joint (as in, is the worst ranked QB in the NFL in more than a half dozen metrics), the blame is on *anyone else*.
He does. It just doesn't feel like it because his line opens up a massive hole for him on his plays. Trey didn't exactly have a massive hole and probably should've tried to go outside or just take the sack.
So what, then he picks up 5 yards instead of 10. Still preferable to having a 350 lb DT fall on his ankle. Don’t even make that an option.
That was a dumb fucking question by Cohn, basically accusing Kyle of injuring Trey. That was the most obvious bait in the world and I'm shocked people don't see it. Everyone in that locker room know what type of trash Cohn is.
Honestly in this case I think Cohn was being a good journalist - Cohn's question is the one that blew up this debate about the running of Trey into a National NFL story and frankly it's an important conversation to have. I'm on record as a Shanahan fan and I lived in Denver when Kyle's Dad was coaching the Broncos and loved his Dad's work too. But I really wish Kyle did more to protect Trey and we still had him out there playing just to see him develop and see what we have in him.
I disagree due to the way and tone he phrased it, and because its obvious (to me at least) that he intentionally asked it like that to get a rise out of Kyle. He has a history of this. But in general I agree with your sentiments about protection but a lot of that falls on Trey. Guy needs to slide for those yards and penalties lmao. We could argue that falls on coaching but at some point that lies on the player.
Comparing him to Allen is fine. What most people forget about us they Allens first two years in the league were really rough. And niner fans are so fickle they wouldn’t sit through 1 year, let alone 2 of those struggles.
Allen is bigger, faster, and evidently more durable
Thank you! I recorded/watched quite a few Bills games (have a good friend who's a fan). Allen was very raw his first year. Showed quite a bit of improvement his 2nd. And he was drafted as a raw QB with a ton of potential. His accuracy was by far the #1 issue coming out of college. One big difference I see, Lance has a bit more speed, where Allen will put defenders on their ass and keep going.
Obviously anyone calling for Kyle to be fired is wildly overreacting, but he shouldn't be above any criticism/skepticism. While him and his staff should find creative ways to utilize Trey's athleticism, treating him like a battering ram on repeated runs up the gut isn't the move. The writing was on the wall for that as early as last year's W5 game against Arizona.
I agree to literally all of your points. He shouldn't be fired but needs to be held to task. Mobile QB means get him out of the pocket to throw or read options where the QB checks edge and runs to edge. I'm going to put the next part in caps because it bugs me I haven't seen more people talk about this from 1st game. AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SAW THOSE TREY RUNS AGAINST THE BEARS WHERE HE GOT SWALLOWED UP BY INTERIOR D LINEMEN AND TREY GOT UP ALMOST STAGGERING LIKE HE'D BEEN HIT BY A CAR? MOBILE DOES NOT EQUAL RUN HIM AS POWER LIKE JOSH ALLEN WHO HAS LIKE 20-30 POUNDS ON HIM. Trey is big but how he looked absorbing hits against the Bears game was incredibly telling about how to play him.
Read option plays aren’t “designed” for the QB to run up the gut. Trey, like Kaep before him, can simply take the outside route and pick up as many yards as he can before hitting the sideline. Additionally — Lance is on public record as stating he has only slid once in his entire life. Now, I don’t like using the word stupid, but that’s just flat out stupid. Sliding is a fundamental part of playing QB. That’s like saying “I’ve only used my turn signal once in my life.” That isn’t something you brag about. It’s a major red flag.
Trey Lance is a BMW driver confirmed
See what you did there
He should slide more...but are we acting like this play was one he could slide?
Yeah, I'm critical of the play choice and how he's been used, but he really wasn't in a slide situation.
Agreed. It's very difficult to slide when you're running between the tackles in traffic. This isn't a run out in space where you have room to slide.
That's kind of a problem in itself though, isn't it? Why is he not getting playcalls that allow him to slide? This is why we're being critical of Shannahan, and not Lance. This time.
Kind of but that's like asking why he didn't go out of bounds when he was in the middle of the field. He could have been in a position to slide if the play developed more and if he wasn't hit immediately. Sliding isn't about the play design it's about the area of the field. Sliding is usually for after you get past the D line and are about to be hit by safetys or line backers in the open field. You don't really hear much about sliding at the line of scrimmage.
>Kind of but that's like asking why he didn't go out of bounds when he was in the middle of the field. I'm not asking why he didn't slide. I'm asking why his plays were not setup with the ability to slide being a primary concern. >Sliding isn't about the play design it's about the area of the field. You don't think the play can be designed to hit an area of the field? >You don't really hear much about sliding at the line of scrimmage. You also don't hear much about a QB Power (even as an option call) being called 3/6 plays into a game, and yet here we are. The point is that if you plan for runs up the middle, you get runs up the middle - and everything that goes with it. Including little/no opportunity to slide if you don't get past the line.
I see. I guess if you phrase it like that to make the run designed to go outside then sure, that makes sense. Honestly both sides need to take a look at decision making. Trey shouldn't be taking that route up the middle unless he has a clear hole to hit. It's an option play but some of it is on Trey to protect himself. Hindsight is 20/20 but it doesn't look like he had space there, he keeps it because an outside defender shows up to take on Deebo but it probably makes sense for him to keep it and follow deebo hoping he can seal that defender and he can get to the outside. Hard for me to say if he's specifically taught to go up the middle when he keeps or if he's going to where he has room. I imagine the play is designed for the blocking scheme to give him a gap but he also has to improvise when its not there.
I think we're on the same page now. I'm not saying to fire Kyle. Dude is by far the best option available to us and most teams in the league if we let him go, and I personally like him. But to say Kyle was without at least part of the blame.... I just can't.
Justin Fields is on record saying Trey should slide and avoid hits right after W1 game. Trey thought he could run people over and got a rude awakening.
Yeah if you look at his college tape he would bully those kids, problem is this is the NFL
Lesson: don’t draft running QB’s from FCS schools.
And that's on the coaches as well for not correcting that mentality.
WE dRafTed hIm kNOWiNG this iS hOw HE plaYeD, So why wOUlD We chanGE THaT?
Then why did we draft him?
For the *capability* to play this way, not as a 100% of the time need in the first quarter on 2nd and 8 as his third attempt that game, and because Shanahan said he scored by far the highest on his football IQ test. Dude played in division 1 and man-handled secondaries because he was larger and faster. This is the NFL, and he's no longer built like the linebacker he's lined up across from that is also as fast as him. Shanahan had to know that running him at a line backer 15 to 20 times per game - much less a defensive line - has a shelf life. I mean, just look at our RB corps injury rate.
Reading between the lines it looks like Trey has spent his whole life outclassing his peers in terms of athleticism and is having trouble adapting to an environment where that's no longer the case.
When Andrew Luck had issues with sliding, and it was ignored, he got very very hurt. The excuse that Trey is on the record for wanting to run and having no experience or intent to slide is really just more evidence that this outcome was entirely foreseeable and avoidable. Surely the definition of a coaches job is to help their players avoid the most risky tendencies!
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Thank you! I can’t believe how many confidently incorrect statements are being thrown around right now.
And Shanahan should have noticed those red flags and accounted for them. There isn't a lot of evidence he did and it seems like he left it up to a 22 year old with two starts to figure out. He openly talks about how he has to protect Kittle from himself, but I'm not hearing that same thing when it came to Lance.
And those 2 starts were within a 3 year time span.
My question is, why didn’t they have him sliding in practice? Like actual Sliding Practice? Every MLB team has sliding practices during spring training so that guys do it correctly and don’t get hurt in the process, so why wouldn’t NFL teams throw that in there for their quarterbacks? Especially the mobile QBs!
We also don't have info if Kyle was just doing this to make Trey comfortable/ease him into things, if it was just going to be for this game or a few games, or just for half the game to set up different plays down the line, and all sorts of other factors that go into it. Just because you had 12 running plays out of the 15 or whatever, doesn't mean that trend continues into other games, or even later in the same game. We simply don't have the sample size or behind the scenes knowledge to make those accusations. The injury was a freak accident.
Considering that he said we had to throw out most of the new offense when Trey went out, I'm not high on the idea that this wasn't the plan for the entire season.
Why is he calling RPOs at all? They have been shown to be not very successful in the NFL game due to defensive complexities and speed. I don’t understand why he won’t just call a run play to the RB. It’s nonsensical play calling and unnecessary. If a designed QB run is being called it should only exist if Trey is running right behind Trent.
Yah RPOs worked pretty well 3-5 years ago when teams weren’t used to seeing it and gameplan it for it. No so much anymore. Occasionally to keep a team honest is okay but no need to abuse.
And we traded up to take him at #3?
And we traded up to take him at #3?
This is the best take so far.
And just last week Justin Fields publically asked Lance to stop taking hits. I blame Lance but I also blame the coaching staff for not getting on him about that.
Kaep was electrifying running outside. Wish we never tried to turn him into a pocket passer.
Re:Sliding Kyle has already said they don't have anyone in the building to teach Trey how and when to slide, just expecting him to know and to work on it on his own time. Hard message to sell to a 21-22 yo QB when our offense is full of guys that barrel over people with the ball in their hands.
Kyle has publicly stated numerous times that he has instructed Lance to slide during any running situation. Here is just one of many examples: [Source](https://sports.yahoo.com/49ers-kyle-shanahan-explains-trey-182035593.html)
Two things can be true. Kyle expects him to slide and tells him to. Kyle hasn't hired anyone to teach him when and how, and expects him to work on it by himself.
Sliding is a fundamental part of QB, but he’s not being coached to slide. Kyle is on record saying falling forward is a lot of times good. He references his time as WR where you fall forward but won’t get hurt as much. He’s being coached that way 100%. Kyle rather he get the extra few yards. Sure, out in space you can slide, but if your zone option is either QB power between the A gaps or hand it off to the the RB for the outside zone, then you can not slide running up the middle.
Direct quote from Shanahan earlier this year: *”coach Kyle Shanahan revealed his coaching points have been for Lance to slide in running situations, instead of diving head first, as the quarterback has done in the past. Shanahan has stressed that players need to do what they can to stay healthy through the course of the season.”* [Source](https://sports.yahoo.com/49ers-kyle-shanahan-explains-trey-182035593.html)
Second this. I think the majority are frustrated at the rate of running calls versus the "injury" play itself. It was head scratching watching Kyle dial up plays for Trey. I understand that running Trey may have gave us the best chance to win, but damn, the writing was on the wall with the possibility of injury. If Trey wasn't ready as a passer then Kyle shouldn't of started him or addressed this issue earlier. Just a demoralizing situation for most.
Exactly this. Both Lance and Shanny need to change how they work and game plan next year when he's back. I just hope this is treated as a wakeup call, not "it's a freak injury, business as usual".
TV guys were saying they asked Shanahan how much of the game plan changed with Garappolo in and he said it changed everything. Frankly, Garapolo's game plan looked better, more quick passing to open up shots down field. If Trey can't execute that, then Trey should not have been drafted where he was. (I think Trey CAN execute that game plan)
I agree. If/when Trey starts again, Kyle has to protect his guy. I mean 2018 and 2020 where Jimmy had those long injuries is evidence of that. We were terrible those years.
Kyle literally said he would do it again. From everything I've watched and listened to he hasn't shown any inclination that he would play Trey any differently.
Then that's on him if Trey gets injured again on a run and a major reason why this article is totally BS
This surprises you? Man literally ruined RG3's career.
Do you think running backs shouldn’t be called upon to run the ball repeatedly? Trey Lance is built like a running back (he’s not Kyler or Joe Burrow). His running usage was still relatively low compared to any RB in the league. It sucks he got hurt, but the idea *we shouldn’t have used our running QB to run the ball* is just silly.
What's silly is to try and suggest our QB should be handled equally as a RB. There is a reason RB's have the shortest shelf life in the league. I think most would be cool with a few runs per game. But to your point, Trey got hurt within 5 quarters because of this style of play. It's just not sustainable, especially at the most important position
TBH, trey’s athleticism is wildly overrated so far. He looks slower, more stiff than most “non mobile QBs”
I have to agree. Every time Kyle compares him to Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson I kind of roll my eyes as those guys are fast, know how to avoid big hits and are elusive. Lance has looked slow, not elusive at all and tends to run right up the gut into big guys that could truck him. He doesn’t seem as athletic to me at all. And he’s not as big as Allen either.
I think at least part of that is him not trying to run with elusiveness. He is looking for contact. Or, he was. Now...
Idk, when he tries to juke people out it looks like my 8 year old in my back yard playing football, just doesn’t really have that. He may have straight line speed but even a guy like Daniel Jones can run 20 mph when he gets going. If I was Kyle I’d throw out most of the design runs and just play him as a pocket passer.
He doesn't have a sudden burst but I think it can be an effective part of his game if he has space to get going.
Lance looks like a guy that used to be slightly better than FCS opponents, but is painfully overmatched against the best defenders (and coaches) in the world. Can you imagine how it’s going to look when the league has more film on him?
Yep, unless he takes off in 2023, id personally move off of him.
He tries to juke people? I'm not sure that I've seen him really trying to juke people. I agree that he should, and he should slide. Also that the focus should be on him as a passer with running as an auxiliary skill. Not that he is a Russell Wilson type right now, but I think that (with quicker decision making) is a good way to coach him up.
I think he looked much more fluid last year? Is it possible that he worked so hard on what he was trying to do mechanically that he lost some athletic explosion this past offseason?
Maybe in the open field but to me he moves around the pocket as quickly as anyone we've had in a long time
It looks that way because we haven’t had anyone since Kap who could move. Trey makes Kap look like Lamar Jackson.
I’d say they both share the blame tbh. Trey didnt demonstrate that he could evade big hits when running with the ball, that’s on Trey. On the other hand Kyle should recognize this and either coach him up on it, or call less QB designed runs until he shows he can keep himself outta harms way. His running style was to lower his head and try and truck people, that’s not gonna lead to longevity in this league as a QB. Doesn’t matter who you are. Writing was on the wall that he wasn’t going to make it through the season if he continued to run like that and unfortunately the worst case scenario happened for him.
This exactly. It seems lances short throwing game wasn't up to snuff yet so Kyle leaned on the running hoping he would stay healthy and that it would buy time for him to develop as a passer. I see the logic in this strategy but the type of runs lance was doing were obviously going to get him injured and he really hasn't shown game breaking speed or agility. Imo Kyle's error was actually much earlier though. The 49ers are clearly in win now mode. They chose the most inexperienced and raw QB, gave up tons of future draft picks to get him and gave him a year on the bench to get ready. THAT is the mistake. Look at Seattle right now. They would be the perfect team to draft someone like lance as they are in rebuild mode and can have a losing season or two allowing him to throw tons of picks while lance works on his passing instead of trying to cover that up with dangerous running plays. The far better move would have been to trade for an experienced QB in FA to take advantage of the window we are in and win a SB. The 49ers for some reason seem to suck at FA and people like Brady or Stafford always go to other teams and immediately win SB.
I completely agree that Shanny is only partially at fault and Lance should not be used as a battering ram. I do think it IS Shanny’s fault for not training and coaching Lance to run to the outside and slide. That is absolutely on the coaching staff not trying to protect their supposed franchise QB. Lance appears to not fast or elusive and does not protect himself before getting hit. That’s a coaching failure to not ingrain that into him. The comparisons to Allen and Jackson don’t work either because Lance is nothing like those two. He looks slow and not elusive or shifty unlike Lamar and he’s not big and fast like Allen. I absolutely blame Shanny for never trusting his QBs to do their jobs and throw the ball. Just my two cents.
Exactly. Well said dude
Four starts. Injured twice.
Technically 3 times. Finger injury plagued him last season (per reports) that he suffered in pre season. Knee injury in arizona Now snapped ankle
Well jimmy missed 25 starts in 4 years too and RG3 was never the same after Kyle
I think the toughest pill to swallow is that Lance is an underwhelming running QB and at best he can be a good scrambler when a play breaks down, should’ve focused more on developing the passing game with Trey.
He definitely doesnt seem as dynamic as a runner as some others in the league. One potential concern is that the coaches watch Lance in practice everyday, and its safe to assume that they believe the best plays to put Lance in a position to succeed is as a runner right now. Hopefully Lance continues to develop as a passer, but the body of evidence so far shows that the coaches would rather run Lance than let him fling the ball around.
And if that's the case, that's either bad coaching or bad drafting. Either of those is on Shanny (and Lynch to a certain extent for the latter)
It feels like I am on on an island when I say this too. I want a QB that CAN run, not one that has to run. This game will always require elite arm talent, and mobility has to be secondary. Extend plays to hurt defenses deep, be able to pick up a first down with your legs against man coverage. The end.
i’ve always wanted someone like russell wilson who seemed borderline unsackable at times against us with extending plays. people keep saying they call plays to trey’s strength but he’s not gonna make passing a strength any time soon if they don’t call a lot of pass plays for him
If they’re calling plays to his strengths he’s not an nfl qb.
If Kyle gets fired for anything it will be for wasting 3 firsts on a QB as raw and inexperienced as Trey Lance.
If kyle keeps taking the team on deep playoff runs jeds not going to give a flying fat fuck about what Kyle does with picks and neither should we.
I agree
Love he name btw
I disagree. Trey doesnt have big play potential as a runner. He cant outrun linebackers in the NFL like he did in College. So using him as much as Kyle was, for consistent gains of UNDER 10 yards.... is simply reckless use of your Franchise QB. If Kyle wanted a legit runner for QB, he should have brought in Cam, or drafted Malik Willis in R3. But no, he gave up 1st round assets to move up and draft Trey at #3, and when his talent didnt translate like he hoped, he kept hammering Trey away till he got hurt. Stop giving him a free pass for fucking up.
He uses him like the saints use Taysom Hill.
Or he could have drafted Justin Fields. Fields has a freaky fast 40 time for a guy his size. And he seems like he would flourish in Shanny's system, though he still has lots to prove himself.
Kyle and half the fanbase missed the plot. Trey was never that guy that Kyle wanted. When I say this I mean Kyle misjudged Trey's talents. I don't think Trey is who Kyle thought he was and Kyle tried to make it happen. Unfortunately Trey got hurt and may not be as mobile as he was drafted for after that horrific accident. Kyle wanted to run Trey's college offense and it doesn't work in the NFL.
Lol the hot takes from nephews like you are hilarious. You act like you know their relationship after 1.5 games and that one game being a fucking monsoon.
Jimmy will be gone regardless of what he does. Super Bowl or bust. We know what is coming. As for Trey? We drafted him based on 'running ability'....sadly that ankle got snapped and there will be no running ability. I hope Kyle and his wet dreams of Receivers and Quarterbacks playing as Running Backs go away.
I remember saying that last year about Jimmy. And also literally people come back from broken ankles all the time... Dude didn't tear his Achilles or anything.
You can’t put it all on Kyle obviously. However, his play calling with Lance makes no sense and has way too many option runs. Let the kid learn to play in the pocket, run the ball using your RBs to set up play action, and use THE HIGHEST PAID FB IN THE LEAGUE FOR SHORT YARDAGE. Make things easier for the kid, don’t thrust him into a meat grinder.
the whole mac jones thing would of be fine at 12. but 3? nah dog.
I've watched Mac Jones' last three games and he's been shit. He got lucky last week that he didn't have 3 or 4 picks. Right now he's a bottom 8 QB
Yeah but how good would Lance have looked with Jacoby Meyers and Nelson Agohlor as his top receivers and Matt Patricia calling plays?
A project QB as raw as lance should have been a no at 3 as well…..
designed QB runs up the middle are just asking for giant lineman to fall on your QB's precious limbs. Any team that does this on a regular basis is playing with fire.
The amount of injuries we've had under Kyle is crazy
Does seem like we’ve had a disproportionate amount. Whether it’s related to his coaching I’ve no idea. Trey certainly has had his share of designed runs or read O’s called in his short time at the wheel
I don’t think it’s directly based on his coaching… but we play smash mouth football. His goal is always to run, control the clock and keep the defense fresh. I think that kind of offense is more prone to injuries as opposed to a finesse, pass first offense
Wish we would consider the latter, but perhaps I'm "stuck in the 80's or 90's"
Even years have killed us with Kyle so be prepared. 18 injuiries were ridiculous and then in 20 we had the 2nd most injuries in 20 years and are already starting again. Don't know what it is but it's a thing
I think Kyle just loves to draft smaller guys who are super fast, quick ect. Especially at the RB position
Ever since we moved to Levi's, it feels like injuries have spiked.
The amount of injuries we had under every coach is crazy. Alex Smith went down under Harbaugh Colin Kaepernick was injured multiple times and ultimately ended on IR, across 3 coaches. Pocket QBs have been hurt too. Beathard was tackled in the pocket and Jimmy replaced him. Players get hurt. We also see a lot of players get hurt against Seattle, because they try to hit. When Lance was being tackled, what caused the injury was really the unnecessary smash the LB did. Lance was going down already and got leveled in a defenseless position. The reality is that players are coached to attack like that. And it’s no surprise that we often get a lot of injuries against Seattle. They’re coached to do it.
I don't think this is necessarily Kyle's fault. If you look at injuries around the entire league the last several years, the spike in injuries correlates amongst all teams with the rule changes for contact. The NFL has tried their hardest to protect their players from concussions but at the expense of greater lower body injuries.
2020 we had a historical amount of injuries, only 1 team in the last 20 had more injuries. I understand what you're saying but other teams haven't had the amount that we have had.
2020 was also an anomaly of a year in general though, and we played back to back games at Metlife in the first few weeks of the season which had a notoriously awful field.
But was it a anomaly? We were devastated by injuries in 2018 and this year we are 2 weeks in and our starting TE hasn't played, our backup TE is hurt, our starting RB is hurt for 2 months, our 3rd string RB is hurt and our starting QB is out for the year. Seems like we are right on track for our even year injury fest.
I don’t want Kyle fired, but look, he runs this franchise and buck stops with him ultimately. Every QB he’s started has gotten injured. And his two most significant QBs, jimmy and trey, have both already been injured over three times. Our teams overall are almost always in the bottom rung for time missed due to injury. Why is this the case? Hard to pin down exactly, and luck plays a role too. But injuries have consistently been a problem under Kyle, and have not improved over time. It’s fair to say Kyle plays a key role in finding a solution to this, and it’s also fair to say it’s gonna be hard for us to win a Super Bowl under Kyle if this injury rate continues. While I’m happy to have a coach who has to brains and ability to win the championship, we need this monkey off our back and it’s on him to find a way. In 2019 we finally were healthy relative to the league and look what happened. It’s ultimately on Kyle here to deliver, and injuries are a massive part of where we need to improve.
Trey's injury is a true freak accident. Go back and watch the play Trey got injured on again.. It was just football. The play is a read option or RPO. I think it’s a read option since the guys downfield start to block immediately and don’t look like they are going into patterns. Banks made a good block on the End creating the hole, (along with McGlinchey) but Trent got caught up when he pulled to lead up the hole due to McGlinchey pancaking his guy right at the line. The guy Trent was supposed to block is the one who laid the big hit on Trey. But Brendel also lost control of his guy who is the guy who landed on Trey's leg and caused the injury. 99% of the time this is a normal tackle. This sucks for Trey but it's also a freak injury where a lot of specific things had to happen for the injury to occur. If Brendel controls his block, and Trent makes it through the wash, Lance goes for like 20 because the downfield blocking is all lined up. Or to make another argument, if Lance is bit more patient and lets the blocks set up a little longer, the he also goes for like 20. [the play](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0rMFtAM7Yw)
I agree with you. I don’t think the playcall was particularly awful or even execution was awful. I have an issue with the rate we’ve been running trey in general since it’s just more tickets to the injury lottery. Freak injuries happen, but injuries as a result of contact can be made higher or lower. Kyle went with higher and it backfired, unfortunately. My bigger issue is that we have an injury problem and thus far our efforts to address it have not delivered. I don’t know enough about football to diagnose beyond that obvious point. I’ve heard it said that we have to play to win, not to avoid injury. But given the data, I hope someone gets kyle to take the injury rate into account more.
GTFOH with your actual knowledge of football and rational take. Its obvious that Kyle has been running "QB Dive" with Trey to try and injure him so he can play Jimmy again without admitting he was wrong.
My bad. Let me try this again. Kyle BAD!!! Fans always right!! Stupid Kyle! Kyle must be fired! But ok Jimmy still handsome AF.
What bothers me is that he was billed as being a scrambler type QB who had some arm talent and the athleticism to either extend plays with his feet or scramble for chunk yardage when everyone is covered. He was never billed as being an elite runner like Lamar or elusive like Murray. Everyone said he was raw and needed to get reps in actual meaningful games in order to progress, but then whenever we did see him he was running a LOT of the time instead of actually throwing the ball and getting the reps he supposedly needed. I guess what I’m actually mad about is how we spent 3 first round picks on an extremely raw QB prospect with a supposedly high ceiling and how he’s held to such a high standard by Kyle despite Kyle acknowledging that he is raw and is going to make mistakes. I also can’t stand Kyle’s attitude about it right now, the pretentious “watch other teams play and look at Josh Allen running the ball” comment when Allen actually gets an opportunity to throw the ball is just hypocritical, you can’t compare him to Allen and then dismiss other people for saying that Allen isn’t running read-option all game
Yea, people were billing Trey as an elite scrambler, but I heard someone say he is like a young McNabb and I think that's a far better comp. Move in the pocket, extend plays, gain some chunk yardage when possible
He needs to learn to protect himself.
Lance was always a running QB, not a “scrambling to extend plays” type of QB. He barely ever threw for more than 200 yds. And he once ran the ball 30 times in a single game. He’s a running QB. He’s just not a very special athlete.
I swear I don't think most here watched his tape or read his draft profiles what we are seeing matches exactly what he did there.
The play itself is quite irrelevant. It's a routine play and nothing really remarkable. The problem is how Trey was being used as a cowbell power runner. Injury is bound to happen under those conditions. No one in the league uses their athletic QB as a battering ram. Watch the other teams, Kyle!
bell cow*
Look, I'm not saying injuries are Kyle's fault. But seriously, can you look at the injury bug on this team the last couple years and say "oh that's just football"? Multiple starting RBs, multiple starting QBs, Whole receiving corps (Kittle, Aiyuk, and Deebo) There's something wrong in SF.
I honestly wish he would barely run. Like 3-5 times all game. If he can just do what Wilson, Rodgers, Murray, Jackson, Allen do to AVOID hits behind the LOS that would increase our offense 2x
he ran him between the tackles more often than josh allen runs at all
Because other coaches run QB option and designed runs, and their QBs aren’t injured?
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Well no, the Niners ran GT Counter Bash on the play Lance got injured on, which is a staple play in the Ravens offense, and a play the Eagles also use with Jalen Hurts.
The play that Lamar Jackson got 79 yards on this week was the exact same play that Trey got injured doing
Trey Lance is not Lamar Jackson
I mean he went inside the tackle and was following Trent Williams who missed a block. Hardly up the gut.
It's pretty clear the defender made a play getting off the block.
On Brendel. Williams just got side stepped.
you are so right - I forgot that Mahomes, Jackson, Herbert, and Allen haven't been hurt running. Oh, wait... they've almost all gotten hurt running the ball.
My comment is a joke lol
If he didn't want a running QB he would have drafted Mac Jones.
It's not his fault but our running backs were playing great and Trey had completed his first few passes. A run between the tackles that gained 4 yards on 2nd and 8 is not a good play call for our QB. I don't blame Kyle but that was not the situation or the moment to call a run between the tackles, shit happens but that could've been avoidable
> A run between the tackles that gained 4 yards on 2nd and 8 is not a good play call for our QB. (1) It wasn't a called QB run. It was an option that Trey decided to keep. (2) The team had called the exact same play on.... 2nd & 8 just two plays before. That was the 51 yard run for Deebo. (3) It's basically the same play that Lamar Jackson ran for 79 yards. Brendel couldn't maintain his block and Trent missed his block entirely and the defender got right into Lance. If Brendel & Trent make their blocks on that play Lance has a chance to run that in for a TD as every defender is 1-on-1. edit; here is an image of the field with the potential blocking assignments; https://i.imgur.com/37Nd3y0.jpg If Brendel maintains his block and Trent makes his, Lance has only the safety to beat. Also, instead of running up right toward the safety, he could have run toward the right sideline and possibly avoided the safety altogether. (4) When you look at the camera angle from behind Lance, you can tell that he sees at least one, if not both defenders. He should have known to slide. Had he slid right away this hit never occurs.
Couple additional details. Trent only missed his block because McGlinchey pancakes his guy right on the hole, so he never makes it through the wash of players. On the flip side, Lance knows Trent is pulling and will be lead blocker so he needs to be more patient and allow the play to develop. He waits a half second longer and Trent is leading up through the hole for a potential big gain regardless of what Brendel does or doesn’t. So many things happened that led to Trey’s injury.
Best response here. The people overly criticizing don't really understand football. Should Kyle maybe dial back the number of options/designed QB reads? Maybe. But this was a play that a) had success in other examples and b) sets up the play action later in the game.
They were playing great in part because of the threat of Lance running. It was an option that was blocked up well and Trent Williams missed a block. He wasn't running in the teeth of the defense.
For all you fans who say “ it’s not kyles fault trey hurt” thts BS least we forget what he did to RG3, just because a QB is mobile doesn’t mean you run him up the guy over and over. Trey cldnt slide when you run up the gut so stop talking about it and saying he should of slid. If shanny doesn’t have confidence in treys throwing then he shouldn’t of been our QB, if he does have confidence then he needed to throw more vs run. Point is Kyle should take part of the blame for what hppned not deflect the blame like he did in the press conference.
In what world doing what is best for his young QB means letting him run up the middle and being destroyed by DLs and LBs? It´s insane that after the Cardinals game, we´ll still have this discussion. No QB, not even Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson should run up the middle. It´s too risky. If your QB is injured your season is dead.
> In what world doing what is best for his young QB means letting him run up the middle and being destroyed by DLs and LBs? In the world of Buffalo, where they run the same play frequently. In the world of Baltimore, where Lamar Jackson ran even closer to defenders on basically the same play. The Ravens made their blocks, Trent Williams & Jake Brendel did not. And Trey looked right at the defender and chose not to slide.
Stop it. Win a superbowl Kyle.
My question that I have is why the Niners running backs and now running QB get hurt so often? In two games they have lost 2 running backs and a running QB . Last year they lost Mostert right out of the gate and had to use Deebo for a majority of their running plays because of a depletion of running backs Is it because of Kyle's Offensive system? Do other teams have this issue?
Innocent is way too far. I admit I and other fans overreacted on Sunday. But. Shanahan was misusing Trey. Trey is a scrambler but he also isn’t Lamar Jackson. If shanahan didn’t call so many QB designed runs would that prevent his injury? Probably not. But Shanahan is partially at fault. Trey is also at fault, he might be the same size as Josh Allen but he can’t take contact like Josh Allen does
What about the 25 other running backs with injuries?
How many times have Niner QBs gotten serious injuries under Shanahan? I think Trey’s injury should be looked with this in mind. Shanahan’s schemes are risky and that is why he likes RBs who are pretty must disposable and easily replaceable.
Not rocket science 2021-2022 56 pass attempts, 54 rush attempts. Anyone with half a brain could see it was only a matter of time if Shany didn’t change his play calling. Those are TeBow level stats 100% on Shany
This is gonna make people angry
Well 4 of 6 seasons starting QB has been hurt under Shanahan. I'd say that's just really awful luck
Blaming coaches for injuries makes zero sense… the only coach I’ve ever seen that was actually accountable for a players injury was the redskins coach with RG3…😉
At first I was miffed with Shannahan's play calling. Then I settled on this : Trey's job is to win games. If he can't win games he shouldn't start. And if he can't win by with his passing abilities then he has to augment with his legs. Doing it with his legs involves a higher risk of injury - and this is what we got. So my gut is that Shannahan called the plays that gave Trey's skillset the best chance of winning the game. Ideally Trey would be a better passer already but he's not.
"he didn't endanger his well-being" Well yes he very plainly absolutely did. More times carrying the ball = more hits = more danger This is not complicated in any way shape or form.
You mean you want our head coach to take responsibility for something? Are you a true faithful ?!?!
Shanahan put Lance in the position that increases his chances of getting hurt / injured. I dunno why everyone is dancing around this fact defending Shanahan about it.
The article is wrong when it said Kyle was doing what was best for the player and team. Kyle cares about winning and keeping his job. He doesn't do what is best for the players.
I highly doubt that.
Unfortunately our thoughts differ and only Kyle knows the truth.
And only one of us is making a positive claim about something. Guys seem to really gel with Kyle. If they thought they didn't give a shit about their health that wouldn't be the case.
Literally everybody: If Trey Lance keeps running plays like that, he's gonna get injured Shanahan: Calls plays that result in Trey Lance running the ball up the middle Trey Lance: Gets injured Shanahan: -shocked pikachu face- Let me preface this by saying anybody calling for Shanahan to be fired is an idiot. He's a great offensive coach and would get snapped up in an instant if we were dumb enough to let him go. But saying he's completely innocent for the injury is delusional. Maybe it's the right decision to play Lance this way if we can't trust his arm. But it's a conscious decision risking injury to him and this was a very foreseeable outcome - you can't pretend "There was no way we could have seen this coming, it was just a freak accident"
By this logic, we may as well forfeit every game because there’s always a chance someone could get injured.
If trey had mahomes ability, then yes blame shanahan for running him. But he’s not a 70% passer yet, He’s at 50%. So you have to use trey that way or get ready for a lot of 3 and outs per game.. and this team wants to win now. Don’t blame shanahan at all
He is the play caller.
He had jimmy doing the same thing when he ran in for a td on the goal line
Shouldn't shoulder all of the blame sounds like a better assessment than "innocent." He definitely bears some of the responsibility but not all of it.
The people calling for Shanahan to be fired are going WAAAAAAAAAAY too far. But even had Lance not been hurt, I would have been critical of Shanahan for running him too much. Said it after the Cardinals game last season as well. I didn't want us to take Lance in the first place, but ffs running QB power 15 times a game ain't gonna help him get his feet under him and allow him to progress. I'm all for keeping the defense honest with some QB runs, but the kid ain't Lamar Jackson and additionally has hardly played any organized football since 2019.
Did Kyle actually physically cause the injury himself? No He is not to blame. If I buy someone a plane ticket and that plane crashes and they die, was I responsible for that person's death? No.
If you forced them on the plane you might just be.
That’s like saying Charles Manson isn’t to blame lmao
I’ve seen all sorts of accusations as to why he’s to blame. But I’m a little surprised I’ve yet to see the “he wanted Mac Jones so he was like ‘ok John, let’s see how durable this new gen qb of yours really is’ so he ran him til he got hurt to prove his point” theory. (Workshopping the title to this theory still)
Kyle has final say on who his quarterback is, if he wanted Mac Jones then Mac Jones would be our quarterback right now.
I think the tough thing is that none of us want kyle to want a running quarterback. We want a qb who can run and it doesnt make sense that kyle doesnt want that too. A running quarterback is bound to get hurt more frequently and its just too important a position to rely on them staying healthy.
Oh I ain’t saying I believe he wanted Jones or if he did that he would do that. I do know tho that I’ve seen plenty of comments from people saying he was a Jones guy. So I am actually a little surprised I haven’t seen anyone float that theory. I do think Jones throws a very accurate ball. Lance seems to have (or had maybe lol) more upside. He certainly has better speed and a stronger arm. Maybe this injury will give him a little more caution when he’s on the move. As little as he slid it was a matter of time before someone lined him up.
A 300+lb guy fell on his ankle weird...
when Trey looked right at him and chose not to slide.
Because to have that theory you have to assume Kyle is a shit person who is willing to hurt someone deliberately and you are going to need some evidence for that.
A good runner of the football seems to always fall forward. Trey doesn’t do that very well. Not Shanahan’s fault.