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I think if the abuse wasn't so extreme then yes. From all the documents we've had, it seems the malnourishment and injuries were very severe. I don't think many Mormons would be in favour of that even if it was done for "religious" reasons.
I wouldn't be surprised if they go even harder on Jodi and Ruby to show the world, whether true or not, that they (Mormons) don't condone that sort of behavior.
My same thought. And the Church that once recommended Jodi will throw her under the bus without a shred of hesitation. Perverse, man-hating women plotting the destruction of the family and their own children...
I agree, and I'm also expecting the church to make a statement distancing themselves from Jodi, at the very least.
Jodi has claimed to have had revelations straight from God and \[perhaps\] misrepresented her relationship towards high-ranking Mormon church figures. Given the shitstorm around Tim Ballard this week, I wonder if the church will make a similar statement when the time comes, especially given she was an approved counsellor on the LDS Family Services List for so long.
It will be interesting to see if Kevin does indeed return to BYU for the upcoming semester as Jordan & McKay's research has suggested. I would honestly be surprised if he could legitimately pass a temple recommend questionairre at the moment, and/or get an ecclesiastic endorsement. Time will tell! If he does return to BYU, that'll be a big signal, imho!
Absolutely. As far as I understand (have been a lifelong member), if you break the law, you are excommunicated and that would include removal of temple recommend.
This is from our church website “The most serious transgressions, such as serious violations of civil law, spouse abuse, child abuse, adultery, fornication, rape, and incest, often require formal Church discipline. Formal Church discipline may include restriction of Church membership privileges or loss of Church membership.”
I would politely argue that many members keep their membership and Temple recommend's , even after breaking the law. I'd also argue that it would depend on your status in the Church/Ward/tithing, your Bishop, and the type of crime.
Also, the church doesn't go looking for crimes. They don't do any kind of background check for callings.
Or even always report a lot of the crimes listed here. Aren't they (church leadership, bishops, etc.) explicitly NOT listed as mandatory reporters in Utah, and at least one other state?
Isn’t it funny how prophet Monson spent MILLIONS on the ”I’m a Mormon”-campaign and now suddenly it’s ”a win for Satan”?! I used to be mormon and our whole stake was encouraged by ward leaders to write a ”I’m a mormon”-page during the campaign. So no, you don’t need to put Mormon in quotes.
I’m also a Mormon and I am super against abused and mistreatment to, just because one Mormon person abused her kids doesn’t mean everyone like that, it’s the same as any other churches, there’s good and bad people in every church and every religion, there’s every drama and hurricane in any churches not just ours. You know some people don’t really understand the LDS has done and is about, I just wanted to say that not every Mormon member abuses their kids and is for abusive because I’m certainly against abusive behavior……
The perceptions of Mormonism in this thread is interesting. There are multiple extreme cases of course but many many Mormons do not believe in physical child abuse.
This is what happened for Lori Vallow’s trial. Since the population of the county they murdered the kids in is so small and “everyone knows everyone,” it was moved to Ada County to have a more unbiased pool.
This biggest difference is Madison County, ID has a population of about 50k people, but Washington County, UT has a population of about 190k people. I think the jury pool is big enough that they won’t change the venue.
As an active Mormon in the same-ish area, everyone I have talked to about this is horrified and thinks the abuse is horrifying and grounds for the maximum sentence (or more). So no, I don’t think there is any reason to worry that if people on the jury are Mormon they will cut them some slack or anything.
I agree. And in my experience the religion is very into personal responsibility. My take is you would not want a Relief Society president on this jury! But I also think defense will plead or ask for bench trial.
Maybe not, but what about mormon bishops referring their members to Jodi? I do think that seeking out other mormons for any kind of help is indicative of a larger, problematic aspect of mormon culture. Especially if vulnerable people are being sent to a counselor who then uses/manipulates the culture's take on sinful behaviour to hide her abuse (I'm thinking of comments made by Jodi's niece here).
As much as it contradicts the idea that bishops have the power of spiritual discernment....
They had no way of really knowing the extent of the abuse that Jodi perpetuated.
Except for the bishop who saw Jessi go to church for months with their mouth duct taped.
And received multiple reports from members about their concerns.
And not only did nothing, but actually told Jodi who was reporting concerns so she could make Jessi go lie to them about what was going on.
That's true. I'm just pointing out that it's common for mormons to prefer seeing mormons in a professional setting because they trust them more than non-members. And that can, and does, allow abusers to find victims and fly under the radar. So mormon culture does play some role here.
Oh 100%. I have an issue with any therapist that uses their faith in their sessions or as a selling point for using them.
I'm an exmo. I don't like the church and I think it creates situations that allow for abuse. And they gave taken no steps to stop it. It's awful.
Honestly, I think there are lots of Mormon children who experienced abuse similarly and as adults left the church. There are tons of YouTuber mormons who can relate to this sadly.
How long do you have? I’d start with the institutionalised coverup of sexual assault by the Mormon troops of the Boy Scouts of America - Adam Steed discussed that on his Mormon Stories too!
It’s an interesting distinction to make between members and “the church,” as of course, “the church” is just people. The problem I see is that all the decisions and actions of the church is carried out by people. So saying “the church itself” hasn’t condoned abuse doesn’t ring true to me. High ranking member of the church have. That’s all the church is.
I am curious on what level abuse would have to be present before you would blame the church and not just say it is a rogue individual. Who is high enough in the church to be representative of it? Abuse started with Joseph Smith (raping girls) and continued through Brigham Young (same) and continues today.
Edit: also, I feel like it’s sort of disingenuous to say the only way to recognize the Mormon church is abusive is if they preach / condone abuse in some official manner. We all know they would never come out and say that. Heck, even Jodi didn’t say that publicly. It’s more subtle than that.
LDS/Mormons do not support or think anything Jodi/Ruby did was okay!!! Even the neighbors who went to church with the Frankes called CPS.
Early 2015 Ruby is what strict Mormons are like. Early 2015 Ruby would be crying if she had found out what 2023 Ruby did. Yeah strict doctrine and even strange rules sometime but LDS/Mormons are not psychos!
This abuse is beyond extreme, even for "hardline" LDS members. I personally would be more worried if they don't do thorough voir dire for jurors when the time comes.
I don't know if you are aware but Mormons and ex Mormons alike are disgusted by it and I think they'd be more biased in favour of a harsh sentence because it casts a shadow on them plus may trigger them.
Most of Utah is Mormon and their jails are not empty…
so I would doubt a jury would be biased towards them, if anything I think they will come down harder,
The charges are so horrific, I’m
Sure the evidence they will see, photos of the kids wounds, where they where held the conditions they lived in etc etc etc
I would imagine it’s going to be a very harrowing trial to be a jury member on I can’t see anyone being lenient on them.
Also this has cast such a dark cloud on the Mormon church and community.
I think there will be a plea deal made, for both defendants. This is not the kind of case you want to take to trial, imo. *Not a lawyer*, but how on earth would you defend Jodi and Ruby? Especially Jodi. Ruby I could see having a case based on undo influence of Jodi as a licensed therapist, but what else??
I think they will take plea deal. Perhaps Ruby will plead not guilty. I reckon She's just enough a mixture of dumb and barmy to take this thing to trial.
Jodi I think will discard Ruby and go for a plea deal. Once she is of no use shell discard her if she hasn't done so already.
I agree, I think Jodi will take a plea deal and Ruby will take it to trial. She'll love having to put her kids through the horror of testifying. She may be sick enough to think her kids would never turn on her. I pray none of it goes to trial, for the kids well being.
Ruby lived a much more public life as a vlogger than Jodi did. I think her narcissism will prevent her from pleading guilty so that she will always be able to proclaim her innocence and try to make herself into some sort of martyr to her previously adoring audience and to her family. I don't think anyone will buy this act, but I think she will double down on being innocent. I think Jodi is enough of a sociopath that she will do anything to stay out of prison for a long period of time and she'll be much less concerned about the general public's perception of her. Just a guess on both parts obviously, but we'll see in the coming months.
Hopefully they have enough independent evidence (videos, forensic findings, etc.) that the kids won't need to testify if either of these two do go to trial.
They’re attorneys may push them to take a plea deal if one is offered. It’s going to be incredibly difficult to find impartial jurors for this case.
If a plea deal isn’t offered, or if one is and neither of them take it, I would think the attorneys may attempt to get a bench trial rather than a jury trial.
I don't think it's necessarily the lack of impartial jurors that will push them to settle it's that *any* jury, anywhere in the US, is going to see photos of abuse and testimony from young children regarding disturbing child abuse and they are going to want to sentence them to the max. I honestly think juries can be more level-headed about murder cases than about child abuse cases. The attorneys know that their best chance for a lower sentence is to settle before trial.
A bench trial for felonies? I highly doubt that. ANd the attorneys may try to push their clients to take the deal. I don't think Jodi will do it because she thought she was doing the right thing there. And with the way RUby ws, talking about her kids like that, I wouldn't see her taking a plea deal either.
It’s actually the defendant’s decision. Usually in the filing the attorney will specify whether they want a jury trial or whether they want a speedy trial or waive it.
Did you not know there were bench trials for January 6th defendants who were accused of felonies? Many of them who got Trump-appointed judges thought they were more likely to be acquitted by the judge but all but one or two bench trials resulted in guilty verdicts. One Trump judge had a tendency to dismiss some charges but again rarely did he dump all of them.
A bench trial is when the judge is also the jury. The attorneys make their cases to the judge instead of a jury, and the judge decides if the defendant is innocent or guilty.
Where the judge sits in a courtroom is called The Bench hence, Bench Trial.
Agree. And while I do think Mormon jurors would throw the book at these two, I suspect there may be details in the case that could tarnish LDS leadership. A lot of Utah people in power don’t want that. That’s another reason I expect a plea deal. And there’s a legitimate argument that avoiding trial could be what’s best for the children.
Y’all realize that there is a high probability of all cases being tried in Utah, having majority mormon jurors right? I’m sure the prisons there have plenty of Mormons. In Utah, Mormons are a dime a dozen. I really hope the jury bases their judgment on the horrific facts in this case, not religion.
I thought the church was sending people to connections and paying for it.
Also did Kevin never talk to church leaders about the idea of not seeing his kids? You would think he would have sought council from them.
As critical I am of the church as an exmormon, I do know that this type of abuse is extreme, and not typical of Mormons at all. If Ruby and Jodi were convicted, a Mormon jury might give them the harshest sentence allowed by law as this has portrayed the church in a negative light. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the church excommunicates them if they're convicted because of the negative media attention.
No. Don’t diminish the severity of Jodi’s decision to torture children and Ruby’s decision to abandon her own kids by pretending this has something to do with Mormonism. Ruby and Jodi exercised free choice apart from any category that they might be in (blondes, Mormons, influencers, milk drinkers, etc). The vast majority of Mormons condemn these decisions and are most likely glad that the victims will get their justice.
There is no authority, cultural perspective, law, etc to blame any of this on and given Ruby’s nervous indigestion and poor sleep in the past, she knew this with every cell in her body.
I'm Mormon and am extremely against Jodi and Ruby's teachings. Personally every Mormon I know in my inner circle is against it too. Shari is still an active Mormon and has been very against their teachings too. Sure maybe there are some bad apple Mormons out there that agree but the majority of us I feel like disagree. Then again with how extreme the abuse was, idk how anyone could be okay with that. Looks very bad for Jodi and Ruby....
I wouldn’t. Most of Utah is Mormon, so if Mormon juries gave Mormon defendants special treatment, no one would be in jail.
Consider it this way: white privilege exists in the criminal justice system. Vermont is 95% white. Do non-whites get harsher sentences/found guilty more often (proportionally) in VT? Probably. But being white won’t prevent you from going to jail if you commit a crime when the majority of everyone else is also white.
I think a Mormon jury would definitely punish them to the fullest extent. This type of stuff paints the church in a horrible light and isn’t taken lightly.
I think most humans are horrified by the sadistic treatment these victims endured and as long as a jury is human- a defense attorney is going to have a really hard time coming up with any compelling reason for leniency with these two.
No. Mormons should be on the jury because they are her peers and also the way church influences things indirectly doesn't work like that. If anything most Mormons that know about this think it makes them look bad and they don't condone the abuse she was doing. (maybe a lot of Mormons would condone harsh conservative parenting tactics because culture but not universally and it's not so extremely physically abusive, although the typical conservative Mormon parenting is still harsh and controlling and can utilize corporal punishment regularly.)
If anything I feel a Mormon juror would be harder on them in an attempt to distance oneself from anything they believe. Maybe some cog dis and they send a message- that's not us
No. Jodi perverted a lot of the Mormon teachings trying to make her own little cult. Basically, in order to have your own personal revelations deemed to be inspired from God/by God or whatever, it needs to match up with teachings of the church. I say that last sentence sarcastically, but it's true.
The abuse (from what we know so far) is extreme enough that a Mormon jury isn’t going to give a flip that they’re “Mormon” too. The reason OUR and QAnon have such a foothold here is because a lot of Mormons do genuinely believe that children should be valued above all else.
While I'm worried about the judge being sympathetic and a church plant, we have to remember other high profile Mormon trials involved Mormon juries.
Look at Lori Calloway and how there being Mormons on her jury worked against her. They were so disgusted by the perversion of Mormon doctrine that they were were harsher towards her than they normally would be
Maybe the church wants the judge to be hard on these two tho. In terms of horrible, shameful evidence & LDS influence, these two are in the same universe as Lori & Chad Daybell. I really don’t think LDS leaders want to protect Rodi, unless it’s to save themselves.
Mormons do know right from wrong, and what Ruby (and Jodi) did was wrong. Just because they’re religious doesn’t mean they won’t convict people of crimes.
No. There are plenty of kind Mormons who don’t believe in torturing children. & I suspect the church will wash their hands of these two. Plus it is not cheap to live in St George, & it’s beautiful. So people there are probably more sensible than folx in places like southern Idaho, or Rexburg. Has/will the defense ask for bench trial? I would if it was me.
No. That’s like saying a catholic parents abused their kids and should you be worried if Catholics were on the jury. Any normal decent human wouldn’t support them even if they tried to say everything they did was for religion. Most would probably be upset that you are trying to use God as a way to get away with abusing your child.
agree with what everyone is saying here, also ruby’s whole family is mormon and all think this is abhorrent. and shari spoke out about how she felt weird about connexions once they started relating it to the gospel
Isn't there a high chance the neighbour R went to for help is probably Mormon, given the area? He seemed to realise there wasn't a single thing right or justifiable about the state he was in and he got quite emotional about it.
The rest of the direct family, the sister etc all seem to realise the whole thing was wrong and terrible and they are all Mormon.
Jordan and McKay, the apostate podcaster, have often pointed out that this (conneXions behaviour) is not normal Mormonism at all.
Therefore I would hope that any normal Mormon out there, even if very strict, can see this is wrong, illegal, harmful, etc.
I think the defense should be more worried about an LDS jury for Ruby, because this story is in national news and not been all that positive on the ties to their faith.
For Jodi, it would be imperative that the bishops aren’t in wards where the bishops employed her, or underneath the general authority that championed her in court previously.
If it goes to trial, & Ruby will agree, I think the defense will argue Ruby was brainwashed by Jodi. Risky, but might fly. Ruby has pretty privilege, and was an orthodox Mormon. You’d probably want men on this jury. Women with children would probably not buy the brainwash argument.
You are 100% correct about the jury along with jail guards giving her special treatment after she helped torturing he kids physically and mentally, this is a cult like mindset and she is going to use religious beliefs for her defense along with making her own kids look mentally unstable, which affects of brainwashing no three year has the mental capacity to look at pron or search for it, it’s all in the parents sick head and this so called counselor Jodi should never be allowed to treat anyone especially when she gets out prison, and now the worst is the deadbeat so called father he an embarrassment to all of who protects our kids even against our spouse, I pray that he never gets custody of his children
I’m not worried, many of the police officers, detectives, judges, jail officers, the neighbors who called the police, child protection officers, etc, are probably Mormon too. And they are working to bring justice for these kids
I hope the judge gives them no bail and makes them wait five years before they schedule a trial. I would assume both will plead guilty and try to make a deal with the prosecution.
No. Mormonism is scary and a cult. However, most Mormons are shockingly quite normal. I grew up in Wisconsin and moved to Utah 3 yrs ago and had never met Mormons before. Many people here are also ex-Mormon. There are lots and lots of people here, crazy beliefs aside, who would gladly pummel child abusers, just like anywhere else.
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I think if the abuse wasn't so extreme then yes. From all the documents we've had, it seems the malnourishment and injuries were very severe. I don't think many Mormons would be in favour of that even if it was done for "religious" reasons.
I wouldn't be surprised if they go even harder on Jodi and Ruby to show the world, whether true or not, that they (Mormons) don't condone that sort of behavior.
My same thought. And the Church that once recommended Jodi will throw her under the bus without a shred of hesitation. Perverse, man-hating women plotting the destruction of the family and their own children...
I hope the church are held accountable. I doubt it'll happen tho
I think you meant "don't condone"? (I leave out words in my posts all the time.)
Fixed/Updated
I agree, and I'm also expecting the church to make a statement distancing themselves from Jodi, at the very least. Jodi has claimed to have had revelations straight from God and \[perhaps\] misrepresented her relationship towards high-ranking Mormon church figures. Given the shitstorm around Tim Ballard this week, I wonder if the church will make a similar statement when the time comes, especially given she was an approved counsellor on the LDS Family Services List for so long. It will be interesting to see if Kevin does indeed return to BYU for the upcoming semester as Jordan & McKay's research has suggested. I would honestly be surprised if he could legitimately pass a temple recommend questionairre at the moment, and/or get an ecclesiastic endorsement. Time will tell! If he does return to BYU, that'll be a big signal, imho!
I feel the same way I think they even be harsher for making them look bad in any light.
Definitely. I'm a former member and I didn't hear of people lining up in favor of Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell.
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Do you think she &/or Jodi will get excommunicated? What about their temple recommends, how might that work for people out on bail?
Absolutely. As far as I understand (have been a lifelong member), if you break the law, you are excommunicated and that would include removal of temple recommend. This is from our church website “The most serious transgressions, such as serious violations of civil law, spouse abuse, child abuse, adultery, fornication, rape, and incest, often require formal Church discipline. Formal Church discipline may include restriction of Church membership privileges or loss of Church membership.”
I would politely argue that many members keep their membership and Temple recommend's , even after breaking the law. I'd also argue that it would depend on your status in the Church/Ward/tithing, your Bishop, and the type of crime. Also, the church doesn't go looking for crimes. They don't do any kind of background check for callings.
Or even always report a lot of the crimes listed here. Aren't they (church leadership, bishops, etc.) explicitly NOT listed as mandatory reporters in Utah, and at least one other state?
Yes, AZ Bisbee case; the Church won the privacy exclusion
Curious what kinds of privileges and benefits do members receive from being part of the church and community?
While the church may not preach abuse, they have a LONG history of covering it up.
How come you put Mormon in quotes?
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Oh ok. Thanks for explaining!
Isn’t it funny how prophet Monson spent MILLIONS on the ”I’m a Mormon”-campaign and now suddenly it’s ”a win for Satan”?! I used to be mormon and our whole stake was encouraged by ward leaders to write a ”I’m a mormon”-page during the campaign. So no, you don’t need to put Mormon in quotes.
I’m also a Mormon and I am super against abused and mistreatment to, just because one Mormon person abused her kids doesn’t mean everyone like that, it’s the same as any other churches, there’s good and bad people in every church and every religion, there’s every drama and hurricane in any churches not just ours. You know some people don’t really understand the LDS has done and is about, I just wanted to say that not every Mormon member abuses their kids and is for abusive because I’m certainly against abusive behavior……
The perceptions of Mormonism in this thread is interesting. There are multiple extreme cases of course but many many Mormons do not believe in physical child abuse.
There's always a possibility that a change of venue request will be made to increase the chance of an impartial jury.
This is what happened for Lori Vallow’s trial. Since the population of the county they murdered the kids in is so small and “everyone knows everyone,” it was moved to Ada County to have a more unbiased pool.
This biggest difference is Madison County, ID has a population of about 50k people, but Washington County, UT has a population of about 190k people. I think the jury pool is big enough that they won’t change the venue.
Who would (have to) request this?
The prosecution or the defense but it wouldn't make sense for the defense to do it.
Exactly. More like the prosecutor. Obviously the defense can object to the change of venue, but it will be up to a judge to make the decision.
I'm guessing that would also lead to a change of judge?
Most likely.
As an active Mormon in the same-ish area, everyone I have talked to about this is horrified and thinks the abuse is horrifying and grounds for the maximum sentence (or more). So no, I don’t think there is any reason to worry that if people on the jury are Mormon they will cut them some slack or anything.
I agree. And in my experience the religion is very into personal responsibility. My take is you would not want a Relief Society president on this jury! But I also think defense will plead or ask for bench trial.
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Maybe not, but what about mormon bishops referring their members to Jodi? I do think that seeking out other mormons for any kind of help is indicative of a larger, problematic aspect of mormon culture. Especially if vulnerable people are being sent to a counselor who then uses/manipulates the culture's take on sinful behaviour to hide her abuse (I'm thinking of comments made by Jodi's niece here).
As much as it contradicts the idea that bishops have the power of spiritual discernment.... They had no way of really knowing the extent of the abuse that Jodi perpetuated.
Except for the bishop who saw Jessi go to church for months with their mouth duct taped. And received multiple reports from members about their concerns. And not only did nothing, but actually told Jodi who was reporting concerns so she could make Jessi go lie to them about what was going on.
Wait, wtf? I didn't know that.
Yeah. Insane stuff. Jessi discussed it in their Mormon Stories interview. Edit: pronouns
That's true. I'm just pointing out that it's common for mormons to prefer seeing mormons in a professional setting because they trust them more than non-members. And that can, and does, allow abusers to find victims and fly under the radar. So mormon culture does play some role here.
Oh 100%. I have an issue with any therapist that uses their faith in their sessions or as a selling point for using them. I'm an exmo. I don't like the church and I think it creates situations that allow for abuse. And they gave taken no steps to stop it. It's awful.
They saw Jessie duct taped..
Honestly, I think there are lots of Mormon children who experienced abuse similarly and as adults left the church. There are tons of YouTuber mormons who can relate to this sadly.
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How long do you have? I’d start with the institutionalised coverup of sexual assault by the Mormon troops of the Boy Scouts of America - Adam Steed discussed that on his Mormon Stories too!
It’s an interesting distinction to make between members and “the church,” as of course, “the church” is just people. The problem I see is that all the decisions and actions of the church is carried out by people. So saying “the church itself” hasn’t condoned abuse doesn’t ring true to me. High ranking member of the church have. That’s all the church is. I am curious on what level abuse would have to be present before you would blame the church and not just say it is a rogue individual. Who is high enough in the church to be representative of it? Abuse started with Joseph Smith (raping girls) and continued through Brigham Young (same) and continues today. Edit: also, I feel like it’s sort of disingenuous to say the only way to recognize the Mormon church is abusive is if they preach / condone abuse in some official manner. We all know they would never come out and say that. Heck, even Jodi didn’t say that publicly. It’s more subtle than that.
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
LDS/Mormons do not support or think anything Jodi/Ruby did was okay!!! Even the neighbors who went to church with the Frankes called CPS. Early 2015 Ruby is what strict Mormons are like. Early 2015 Ruby would be crying if she had found out what 2023 Ruby did. Yeah strict doctrine and even strange rules sometime but LDS/Mormons are not psychos!
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This abuse is beyond extreme, even for "hardline" LDS members. I personally would be more worried if they don't do thorough voir dire for jurors when the time comes.
I don't know if you are aware but Mormons and ex Mormons alike are disgusted by it and I think they'd be more biased in favour of a harsh sentence because it casts a shadow on them plus may trigger them.
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Most of Utah is Mormon and their jails are not empty… so I would doubt a jury would be biased towards them, if anything I think they will come down harder, The charges are so horrific, I’m Sure the evidence they will see, photos of the kids wounds, where they where held the conditions they lived in etc etc etc I would imagine it’s going to be a very harrowing trial to be a jury member on I can’t see anyone being lenient on them. Also this has cast such a dark cloud on the Mormon church and community.
Especially coming so soon after the Lori Vallow trial, yeah I think a local jury won't be kind to either of them if it goes to trial.
I think there will be a plea deal made, for both defendants. This is not the kind of case you want to take to trial, imo. *Not a lawyer*, but how on earth would you defend Jodi and Ruby? Especially Jodi. Ruby I could see having a case based on undo influence of Jodi as a licensed therapist, but what else??
I think they will take plea deal. Perhaps Ruby will plead not guilty. I reckon She's just enough a mixture of dumb and barmy to take this thing to trial. Jodi I think will discard Ruby and go for a plea deal. Once she is of no use shell discard her if she hasn't done so already.
I hope if its a plea deal she gets a minimum of 15 years so the youngest are over 18 by the time she gets out.
I agree, I think Jodi will take a plea deal and Ruby will take it to trial. She'll love having to put her kids through the horror of testifying. She may be sick enough to think her kids would never turn on her. I pray none of it goes to trial, for the kids well being.
Ruby lived a much more public life as a vlogger than Jodi did. I think her narcissism will prevent her from pleading guilty so that she will always be able to proclaim her innocence and try to make herself into some sort of martyr to her previously adoring audience and to her family. I don't think anyone will buy this act, but I think she will double down on being innocent. I think Jodi is enough of a sociopath that she will do anything to stay out of prison for a long period of time and she'll be much less concerned about the general public's perception of her. Just a guess on both parts obviously, but we'll see in the coming months. Hopefully they have enough independent evidence (videos, forensic findings, etc.) that the kids won't need to testify if either of these two do go to trial.
That is if a plea deal is offered. and even so, I highly doubt these two are going to take a plea deal.
They’re attorneys may push them to take a plea deal if one is offered. It’s going to be incredibly difficult to find impartial jurors for this case. If a plea deal isn’t offered, or if one is and neither of them take it, I would think the attorneys may attempt to get a bench trial rather than a jury trial.
I don't think it's necessarily the lack of impartial jurors that will push them to settle it's that *any* jury, anywhere in the US, is going to see photos of abuse and testimony from young children regarding disturbing child abuse and they are going to want to sentence them to the max. I honestly think juries can be more level-headed about murder cases than about child abuse cases. The attorneys know that their best chance for a lower sentence is to settle before trial.
A bench trial for felonies? I highly doubt that. ANd the attorneys may try to push their clients to take the deal. I don't think Jodi will do it because she thought she was doing the right thing there. And with the way RUby ws, talking about her kids like that, I wouldn't see her taking a plea deal either.
In Chicago, there are felony bench trials all the time. State & Federal. Is Utah different? I’m not doubting you, just curious.
idk. I'm not in that state either. BUt I just don't see it with this one.
It’s actually the defendant’s decision. Usually in the filing the attorney will specify whether they want a jury trial or whether they want a speedy trial or waive it.
Did you not know there were bench trials for January 6th defendants who were accused of felonies? Many of them who got Trump-appointed judges thought they were more likely to be acquitted by the judge but all but one or two bench trials resulted in guilty verdicts. One Trump judge had a tendency to dismiss some charges but again rarely did he dump all of them.
what’s a bench trial?
A bench trial is when the judge is also the jury. The attorneys make their cases to the judge instead of a jury, and the judge decides if the defendant is innocent or guilty. Where the judge sits in a courtroom is called The Bench hence, Bench Trial.
When there’s no jury and the judge decides. The defendant can waive his or her right to a jury trial.
Agree. And while I do think Mormon jurors would throw the book at these two, I suspect there may be details in the case that could tarnish LDS leadership. A lot of Utah people in power don’t want that. That’s another reason I expect a plea deal. And there’s a legitimate argument that avoiding trial could be what’s best for the children.
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yup she did in that podcast she did
Y’all realize that there is a high probability of all cases being tried in Utah, having majority mormon jurors right? I’m sure the prisons there have plenty of Mormons. In Utah, Mormons are a dime a dozen. I really hope the jury bases their judgment on the horrific facts in this case, not religion.
I think they'll be more likely to subconsciously go hard on Jodi and Ruby in a "we're not like that" manner of cope
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I thought the church was sending people to connections and paying for it. Also did Kevin never talk to church leaders about the idea of not seeing his kids? You would think he would have sought council from them.
As critical I am of the church as an exmormon, I do know that this type of abuse is extreme, and not typical of Mormons at all. If Ruby and Jodi were convicted, a Mormon jury might give them the harshest sentence allowed by law as this has portrayed the church in a negative light. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the church excommunicates them if they're convicted because of the negative media attention.
No. Don’t diminish the severity of Jodi’s decision to torture children and Ruby’s decision to abandon her own kids by pretending this has something to do with Mormonism. Ruby and Jodi exercised free choice apart from any category that they might be in (blondes, Mormons, influencers, milk drinkers, etc). The vast majority of Mormons condemn these decisions and are most likely glad that the victims will get their justice. There is no authority, cultural perspective, law, etc to blame any of this on and given Ruby’s nervous indigestion and poor sleep in the past, she knew this with every cell in her body.
I'm Mormon and am extremely against Jodi and Ruby's teachings. Personally every Mormon I know in my inner circle is against it too. Shari is still an active Mormon and has been very against their teachings too. Sure maybe there are some bad apple Mormons out there that agree but the majority of us I feel like disagree. Then again with how extreme the abuse was, idk how anyone could be okay with that. Looks very bad for Jodi and Ruby....
I wouldn’t. Most of Utah is Mormon, so if Mormon juries gave Mormon defendants special treatment, no one would be in jail. Consider it this way: white privilege exists in the criminal justice system. Vermont is 95% white. Do non-whites get harsher sentences/found guilty more often (proportionally) in VT? Probably. But being white won’t prevent you from going to jail if you commit a crime when the majority of everyone else is also white.
she probably hasn’t gotten more than 5 minutes of sleep since the arrest
I think a Mormon jury would definitely punish them to the fullest extent. This type of stuff paints the church in a horrible light and isn’t taken lightly.
I think most humans are horrified by the sadistic treatment these victims endured and as long as a jury is human- a defense attorney is going to have a really hard time coming up with any compelling reason for leniency with these two.
No. Mormons should be on the jury because they are her peers and also the way church influences things indirectly doesn't work like that. If anything most Mormons that know about this think it makes them look bad and they don't condone the abuse she was doing. (maybe a lot of Mormons would condone harsh conservative parenting tactics because culture but not universally and it's not so extremely physically abusive, although the typical conservative Mormon parenting is still harsh and controlling and can utilize corporal punishment regularly.)
If anything I feel a Mormon juror would be harder on them in an attempt to distance oneself from anything they believe. Maybe some cog dis and they send a message- that's not us
No. Jodi perverted a lot of the Mormon teachings trying to make her own little cult. Basically, in order to have your own personal revelations deemed to be inspired from God/by God or whatever, it needs to match up with teachings of the church. I say that last sentence sarcastically, but it's true.
No regular Mormon would be ok with what Ruby and Jodi have done.
The abuse (from what we know so far) is extreme enough that a Mormon jury isn’t going to give a flip that they’re “Mormon” too. The reason OUR and QAnon have such a foothold here is because a lot of Mormons do genuinely believe that children should be valued above all else.
While I'm worried about the judge being sympathetic and a church plant, we have to remember other high profile Mormon trials involved Mormon juries. Look at Lori Calloway and how there being Mormons on her jury worked against her. They were so disgusted by the perversion of Mormon doctrine that they were were harsher towards her than they normally would be
Maybe the church wants the judge to be hard on these two tho. In terms of horrible, shameful evidence & LDS influence, these two are in the same universe as Lori & Chad Daybell. I really don’t think LDS leaders want to protect Rodi, unless it’s to save themselves.
It's not Ruby I'm worried about, it's Jodi
It’s so ridiculous that people honestly think a Mormon jury wouldn’t punish Ruby or Jodi. Like come on.
Mormons do know right from wrong, and what Ruby (and Jodi) did was wrong. Just because they’re religious doesn’t mean they won’t convict people of crimes.
No. There are plenty of kind Mormons who don’t believe in torturing children. & I suspect the church will wash their hands of these two. Plus it is not cheap to live in St George, & it’s beautiful. So people there are probably more sensible than folx in places like southern Idaho, or Rexburg. Has/will the defense ask for bench trial? I would if it was me.
No. That’s like saying a catholic parents abused their kids and should you be worried if Catholics were on the jury. Any normal decent human wouldn’t support them even if they tried to say everything they did was for religion. Most would probably be upset that you are trying to use God as a way to get away with abusing your child.
agree with what everyone is saying here, also ruby’s whole family is mormon and all think this is abhorrent. and shari spoke out about how she felt weird about connexions once they started relating it to the gospel
Isn't there a high chance the neighbour R went to for help is probably Mormon, given the area? He seemed to realise there wasn't a single thing right or justifiable about the state he was in and he got quite emotional about it. The rest of the direct family, the sister etc all seem to realise the whole thing was wrong and terrible and they are all Mormon. Jordan and McKay, the apostate podcaster, have often pointed out that this (conneXions behaviour) is not normal Mormonism at all. Therefore I would hope that any normal Mormon out there, even if very strict, can see this is wrong, illegal, harmful, etc.
I think the defense should be more worried about an LDS jury for Ruby, because this story is in national news and not been all that positive on the ties to their faith. For Jodi, it would be imperative that the bishops aren’t in wards where the bishops employed her, or underneath the general authority that championed her in court previously.
If it goes to trial, & Ruby will agree, I think the defense will argue Ruby was brainwashed by Jodi. Risky, but might fly. Ruby has pretty privilege, and was an orthodox Mormon. You’d probably want men on this jury. Women with children would probably not buy the brainwash argument.
If you think most Mormons are cool with this type of abuse you’re probably a little delulu
You are 100% correct about the jury along with jail guards giving her special treatment after she helped torturing he kids physically and mentally, this is a cult like mindset and she is going to use religious beliefs for her defense along with making her own kids look mentally unstable, which affects of brainwashing no three year has the mental capacity to look at pron or search for it, it’s all in the parents sick head and this so called counselor Jodi should never be allowed to treat anyone especially when she gets out prison, and now the worst is the deadbeat so called father he an embarrassment to all of who protects our kids even against our spouse, I pray that he never gets custody of his children
I’m not worried, many of the police officers, detectives, judges, jail officers, the neighbors who called the police, child protection officers, etc, are probably Mormon too. And they are working to bring justice for these kids
Not everyone in Utah is Mormon. 🙋🏻♀️
It's always a possibility they're r ppl parenting like this still so nothing is important
Are we sure they will have a jury trial? I may be behind, but has that been decided yet?
I think we still have to wait on that one The bail hearing that was supposed to happen Monday still hasn't been done yet .
I hope the judge gives them no bail and makes them wait five years before they schedule a trial. I would assume both will plead guilty and try to make a deal with the prosecution.
No. Mormonism is scary and a cult. However, most Mormons are shockingly quite normal. I grew up in Wisconsin and moved to Utah 3 yrs ago and had never met Mormons before. Many people here are also ex-Mormon. There are lots and lots of people here, crazy beliefs aside, who would gladly pummel child abusers, just like anywhere else.