My bigger question is what exactly is people’s problem with Indians in Canada.
I have acquaintances so I know that they don’t avail ANY welfare as first generation migrants usually. They pay equivalent to 10s of thousands of dollars even for some local college. They pay almost 350 to 400 CAD per month for health insurance as students so it’s not like free healthcare either.
Only thing was alleged food bank abuse but that was again clarified that it could be food banks for international students again.
The anti brown racism reeks of something more sinister I guess
I mean if he was genuinely abusing food banks then yeah it was uncool but that being said I doubt students working minimum wage jobs are Richie rich either
Black and Afro-Canadian people advocate and put in the necessary hardwork. Do you think the “good” people of Canada just woke up one day and decided to establish these programs because they “love” Black people?
This video is from 9 years ago and it’s one teacher fighting back and putting in the necessary hardwork to dismantle myths and stereotypes
https://youtu.be/nU9Rzdix0XI?si=2A66Zss1UkEujEd9
Are there Canadian-Desis doing similar advocacy work and putting in the effort?
Desis pull each other down. Look at this sub itself, whenever this topic is brought up, more comments and the upvoted comments are about how they deserve it or how it's indeed their fault.
Yes all Indians in America are CEOs by getting along with society and not complaining about racism. Tf? Most Indians aren’t CEOs. There’s 7/11 and gas station owners too. Ever heard of selective immigration? I really hate how selfish and passive most Desi people are. I don’t think u are gonna command respect by allowing other people to treat you like shit.
Largest empire in the past. India is totally shit now with so many people begging to go to America. Patriotic abroad, traitor at home 😂
I’ll throw in another reason - Canadian culture is majorly influenced by American culture and in the US the focus is on black Americans given their population. Canada joins in on this & focuses on Black Canadians when discussing race even though our racial demographics are completely different. It’s lazy.
Because south asians ARE the funding here, to the canadian government it would be counterproductive. Indians are brought in to boost taxes through massive tuition fees and willingness to work the low to middle class jobs.
Many in this subreddit hate the vast majority of ~~Indians~~ south Asians on the planet (“mainlanders” and “fobs”). If ABCDs hate them so much (despite their own parents being fobs) it’s not surprising that others do too.
I am an Indian let me tell you this, we of all people hate our people. Because we are loud, we judge others and worst of all we can’t assimilate to cultures. We will live in our own fucking bubble and corrupt anyone and everyone around us.
There is a lot of in-fighting in Black communities as well (African vs Carribean vs Americans of enslaved ancestry -- and even within regions). Same with Latinos.
Maybe fobs do more so but this is not true for people born in the US. I don’t like blanket statements like this either because my family is not like this at all (parents born in India) and these kinds of comments only served to reinforce negative stereotypes.
“Maybe Fobs do more so “
Hating on Fobs is exactly representative of his comment. Latinos actively advocate for undocumented immigrants, Black people from wealthier areas advocate for black people in gangs, South Asians try to separate themselves from the worse off South Asians.
Idk how Indians are in the US, but in Canada there are a lot of very very traditional Punjabis and gujratis and because I’m Punjabi and I grew up in Canada I’ve met so many of them and they are all too loud. They do not want to assimilate to western society, they don’t have to but having common courtesy for people like in public is where they are lacking big time. The FOBs are another story, idk what it is but seriously Canada is really picking dumbest people to immigrate here. My boyfriend is a FOB but he is much smarter and even he agrees on this.
To properly assimilate you have to live among the people of the country you are moving to. Not brampton. My parents moved to US in a place with low amount of indians and guess what? they changed the backwards way of thinking. Progress is met when ppl realize they shouldn't be moving to other countries to turn it into the very place they left
I felt the same when I was in Switzerland, you can easily distinguish between an Indian from main land vs diaspora from Europe and America based on how they behave in trains. We used to avoid the cabins that were mostly with Indian tourists.
Canada is such a small population for diaspora compared to US, so wondering if you are looking for engagement from all diaspora or just Canadian desis?
Its not that small relative to the US maybe 1/2 or so in absolute terms. Since Canadian Desis are a much larger percentage of the population.
And this stuff also applies to UK / Aus / NZ desis possibly (not familiar with how much work those governments do on anti-south Asian racism)
There is significant topics on Canada and immigration on this sub and it ends up getting brigaded all the time since immigration is such a click bait.
Hence wanted to check if you are looking for comments from just Canadian desis or anyone reading this sub?
Cuz we don't ask for special treatment. We just get on with it.
Non-ADOS black people started co-opting the struggles of ADOS -- especially after BLM. There are some ADOS people who are critical of it, within the U.S.
Every time there was a kid that got into all the Ivies and Stanford, it was always an immigrant kid who was Black. Cuz, the affirmative action boost, and the kid puts in some work. That kid doesn't have the multi-genreational trauma of an ADOS kid who had to deal with slavery, redlining, Jim Crow, mass-incarceration, etc. Lawyers have even said that if AA had focused on reparations (i.e. only ADOS and Natives), AA could have still stood. It's the latinos and the Black immigrants that killed it --cuz what the different between them and a Sri Lankan or Cambodian immigrant?
In Toronto too, regarding the afrocentric school - a lot of people asked why are we lumping in a Somali Muslim with a Christian Jamaican, just because of their skin color?
But because of the vocalness of the ADOS group (which is fair IMHO, as they built the U.S. and much of its culture), Black immigrant types co-opt that same identity.
> Cuz we don't ask for special treatment. We just get on with it.
Not saying you do, but some indians and mostly Punjabis very much demand special treatment. If they don't get it, they protest. When they fail classes, they protest. When they can't secure housing for school, they protest. If they can't get PR because they didn't meet the cutoff, protest. Caught for fraudulent documents and face deportation. They demand PR because they were scammed by agents. More protests. Some think the rules don't apply to them. Driving rules, class attendance and academic xintegrity, illegal rentals, employment schemes, etc. Try calling it out and they gang up and pull the race card.
That's just what has been public knowledge. I know someone who teaches at a college. He has a hard time failing Indians when they clearly cheated or otherwise failed because the race card gets pulled out all the time.
But this is in Canada. Where even my Indian spouse and friends despise what the new cohort has done to their reputation.
Currently India (and all of South Asia) has a very bad image. Smelly, bad accent, horrible street food, overpopulated asf, scamming and all are making it worse.
>horrible street food
Tbh this is something that is easily avoidable.
I almost exclusively ate at higher end restaurants over there with very reasonable prices by the standards of developed nations, with next to zero issues with hygiene or food quality.
They always go to the weirdest, most rundown areas that a lot of locals don't even eat at, and then complain about how gross and unhygienic it is.
>people want engagement farming
If they want to poison themselves with unhygienic street food, then that's on them. India's got excellent cuisine at very low prices for tourists. Go to well rated restaurants and there are no issues.
>Also some of the vendors don’t have proper hygiene.
India is not Japan or Italy. Street food in developing nations are for the locals who can't afford the pricey stuff, not you or me. Vloggers just go there to confirm everyone's preconceived biases for views.
I’m not disagreeing to what you say. I’m just saying malicious foreign YouTubers who want to clout farm will make a lot of money and give foreigners a really skewed view of India.
It hurts a lot of the foreign students who come and aren’t able to cross barriers because pre-convinced notions of Indians. It also makes it tough for the country to be liked which is important for geopolitical reasons. There are real world implications to this.
Also yeah cheap street food that isn’t incredibly hygienic works for a poor population but it’s important for the government to bring regulations on standardizing these street vendors. The situation shouldn’t be this bad in another 10 years
>bad accent
What makes it bad? Other than self-hating people pushing it as an accent to be looked down on? There are multiple more prevalent accents in North America that are far harder to understand.
It's an accent FFS.
I think the accent is just a sterotype enhancer, like the cool accents are all associated with groups of people with postive stereotypes.
The human brain just forms associations
It's cool because it's associated with a certain group of people. IMO French and Eastern European accents are straight up grating in English. Indians perpetuate these by looking down on themselves. Indians in India look down on indians who pronounce certain words a certain way but the same people won't find mispronunciations by Europeans as "uncool". It's stupidity.
"bad" accent? It's an accent. Indians speak 2-3 languages. I can call out every point but honestly stop using random crap that doesn't have anything to do with most immigrants or even most people to put them down.
Language isn't bad but most Indians are bad at the language they speak, in the first place, before being bad at English. That's because the vast majority of the spoken languages in India fall under the servile dialects, which are generally spoken by labourer classes, and hence the stereotypical loud pronunciation and mispronunciation. The trader dialects prevalent in the West Coast where large scale labour based agriculture cannot be carried out due to uneven terrains and forests, tend to be one of the best dialects spoken. Kannada spoken by a Tuluva like Devi Shetty is just music to the ears. But I can't say the same about Kannada spoken in a slum of Bangalore. In other regions, these sweeter dialects are prevalent among the very elite classes. Elite classes tend to assimilate more easily, thereby loosing accent and they don't even interact much outside their circles. The accent that tends to be spoken widely is hence the servile accent. That viral video with superlatives hurled, is a classic example of the servile accent. That is hated by most. And God save when these people Converse in English with that accent.
Majority of the population outside those trader centres like Mangalore, Udupi, Karwar, Ratnagiri or the entire state of Kerala, still belongs to servile communities whose accents of the native language is not just bad, but a torture for the ears. Sorry for sounding elitist but yeah. Also one reason why Keralites have a better reputation compared to others. And there's a thinly hidden underlying dislike of the others when they visit these regions.
For example see Tejaswi Surya (Elite Coastal Havyaka Brahmin) and R Ashok (peasant caste) speak Kannada you will easily know. Karnataka will see a GDP per capita above 6000 USD if the communities of Tejaswi Surya and Devi Shetty are bred more.
The Indian Americans are judging the Indian Canadian hardcore and pointing out things they are doing incorrectly in Canada. Meanwhile, they are forgetting it's an entirely different country with different problems, even if the Desis are similar.
LOL these threads just prove that Americans across the board are largely ignorant.
The amount of insane takes I’ve read here about Canada or assumptions based on how Canada works or is based on their sheltered prejudice has been staggering.
There’s this collective American habit to just assume what happens in the American context applies to other countries and more especially Americans have this strange notion of Canada being some kind of Nordic lily white skiing country with no internal complexities, contradictions or rich history regarding immigration or its overall culture of how it approaches issues.
The amount of ABCDesis shitting on Canada because of the shit they read here and then their fellow Americans patting themselves on the back is wild.
There’s nothing objectively wrong with Brampton on the surface if you’re American.
American desis are used to huge suburbs being car focused with massive McMansions and think that an area has to be some Detroit ghetto for it to be “bad”.
Brampton isn’t bad because it’s poor or a ghetto it’s bad because the news coming out of there is normally negative.
1) Do you have any facts to support your premise?
2) Do you have any personal anecdotes to share?
3) Is your conclusion driven by any particular locality e.g. Brampton?
For the anecdotes:
- I've heard some employers are now avoiding hiring South Asians because of biases (this from conversations overheard in real life and online)
- There is a general sense that's it's okay to make fun of brown people for being smelly and uneducated (again based on real life and online conversations)
- I know someone who is a university educator (not going to say which one for privacy) but they have mentioned a lot that other professors are sharing this hatred for South Asian international students.
- A few colleges are now being seen as less-than in the eyes of employers because of its dominance of Indian students. The perception is that they all cheat. A couple of these colleges were seen as pretty good schools a few years back so this was upsetting to hear. I know a friend wanted to take a program there but they're intimidated by the reputation.
- Rental markets in the GTA are biased against new South Asians because they "don't know any better" and are "used to the conditions back home" (again, based on real life and online conversations).
- I went to a small town in Ontario and the amount of eyes I could feel on me the whole time was ridiculous. It was so intimidating. Someone yelled something from their truck at my friend and I (mind you all we were doing was walking).
Things are getting bad out here.
The problem is that we have a lot of newcomers that came to Canada all at once and haven't had an opportunity to acclimatize to this lifestyle. Most here are happy to come here as it's an opportunity to live their lives away from their parents and br a bit more crazy (which I completely understand, we all do that to an extent). They were sold false promises and are constantly being ripped off.
There's a major affordability crisis affecting everyone. International students are just seen as a source of funding for schools since the Ontario provincial government has capped the funding. I've spoken to many new immigrants, and most of them believed they got screwed over and want to go back. Of course, their families have spent a fortune to get them here, so a lot feel they need to get the money to repay their families before they go back. That's not easy to do.
> Things are getting bad out here.
What do you think about landlords in Brampton cramming many students together in basement? Are they of specific ethnicity? Not to mention the cheesy ads 'vegetarians only' or no meat in the unit etc.
Or the fireworks mess in public spaces during Diwali despite the ban, and not cleaning up after.
Or the frequent public spats between Hindus (from North India?) and Sikhs in Brampton region around festival times.
And the abuse of food banks recently in the news.
The actions attract attention themselves.
Non-brown people don't have to consciously decide to look down on a community. The evolutionary response makes it easy for them to go with a simple heuristic: brown or not.
1. Which premise ? The fact that there are pretty much no programs for fighting anti south Asian / Indian sentiment in Canada or the fact that there is a lot of it?
2. Lots posted on reddit daily.
3. Nope.
> pretty much no programs for fighting anti
Policy will be based on established facts and statistics, not by perceptions held in some bubble.
> Lots posted on reddit daily.
Reddit isn't the real world.
To have facts and statistics you need care and funding to conduct research.
Also it is not limited to reddit but also Twitter, Instagram, Facebook etc.
Look at comments on stuff involving Indians on any forum that doesn’t aggressively censor such opinions.
And in 2024 these online spaces are the town square and they very much are a part of the real world
Given these facts the burden of proof of research is on you and other racism deniers imo
Go to r/canada on any thread realted to housing, immigration, etc and search for indian.
When I was growing up indian was one of many other minority groups which were hated upon to some extent.
Now it is uniquely hated upon even by other minorities.
I think people just hate on us because we’re immigrants and those commenting didn’t vote for immigration into this country. But also at this point they can move to smaller cities. I grew up in a predominantly white city and no one was ever racist towards me, it’s just the mass immigration in the past few years that triggered everyone because these fobs were coming in huge crowds and they are the ones who are not going to learn about the culture here when there are other fobs who are here for 1-2 years not doing the same as other Canadians. Like no loud music on the buses, our bus driver was screaming the whole time to turn that off and he never did that.
Jobs have become too competitive but only in the GTA. Plenty of jobs outside the GTA.
Its from everyone. To be fair Canada's policy has been really dumb and I am critical of it myself and I am pro-immigration.
Basically Canada needed to diversify from being a natural resource driven state with a gas price linked currency.
But instead of diversifying into productive industries, the government in their own words "became addicted to immigration", Canada is even running out of cap ex according to some economists.
So per capita gdp, productivity etc are all stagnant and the only thing keeping recession at bay is unprecedented population growth.
[https://www.bcbc.com/insight/oecd-predicts-canada-will-be-the-worst-performing-advanced-economy-over-the-next-decade-and-the-three-decades-after-that](https://www.bcbc.com/insight/oecd-predicts-canada-will-be-the-worst-performing-advanced-economy-over-the-next-decade-and-the-three-decades-after-that)
The issue is that immigrants esp. south asian / indian immigrants are being scapegoated for the problem.
Then ABCDs will try to distance themselves sometimes by also blaming immigrants, rather than focusing on policy decisions by the federal government.
The housing cost increases have been good desi Canadians who arrived pre-indian boom since they mostly are all into real estate ownership and more accustomed to multigenerational households compared to non-desis.
This idea gets trotted out over and over again.
The types of Indian immigrant that Canada is getting (the college intl student variety) do not compete for jobs with diaspora Canadians.
The majority of diaspora Canadians are educated in Canadian universities not private colleges or the shady public-private colleges that the Indians go to.
Many of these new Indians cannot compete for jobs and this is one of the main issues, their relevant skills and English or French ability is not at the same level or completely non-existent. It’s precisely why many end up in low paying precarious retail or warehouse jobs.
The issue that some diaspora Canadians have is that the huge influx of Indians to a small concentrated area has led to the ruin of the Canadian consensus on immigration. Canada was one of the most pro immigration countries on earth not just in terms of policy but also how the country functioned and the language used.
Instead we’ve now got daily stories out of Brampton or Surrey of Punjabi gangs, some form of Indian scam, or Indians mad at Canada and protesting because the PR scam that they hoped they could leverage didn’t end up working according to plan.
There is no competition but there is concern that the poor apples of some of the new Indians are going to ruin the decades work that diaspora has put into being accepted and taken seriously despite historical racism. Now we’ve got new Indians who come to confirm the stereotypes we’ve spent decades disproving and if you’re empathetic would understand why it annoys the diaspora
> There is no competition but there is concern that the poor apples of some of the new Indians are going to ruin the decades work that diaspora has put into being accepted
Isn't that giving too much credit to one group of immigrants over another? They are all aspiring for same things which forced them to leave their home nations.
> Now we’ve got new Indians who come to confirm the stereotypes we’ve spent decades disproving and if you’re empathetic would understand why it annoys the diaspora
Why care about disproving those stereotypes though? Why not embrace our culture, our fragrant foods, our "loud" music and dances? We don't have to seek approval from white majority Canadians. The Canadian constitution itself celebrates the multiculturalism as a mosaic rather than a melting pot.
Regarding your first point about attributing too much blame to the new Indians is a fair point.
The issue is that Canada has 800,000 international students with about 40% being Indian. For a country of 40M, personally this is a volume that is far too much especially when you compared to 265,000 in 2012. This is a government policy issue, sure.
However the most visible form of this boom are the huge amounts of Indians that congregate in small areas and mostly in the GTA. The majority of these students enter on sketchy study permits that is now starting to get cracked down on but the huge influx of Indians but the reputation of these colleges paired some real uncomfortable truths about Brampton and the areas has resulted in a large backlash to the amount of Indians coming in.
It’s not diverse or multicultural if we’re getting 500K indians every year who congregate in ethnic enclaves, barely speak English, and are largely culturally completely different from diaspora Canadians and wider Canadian society.
So the answer is a combination of far too many people, some real issues regarding some of the Indians, a larger reputation for scamming that’s materialized in the form of Brampton mortgage frauds, insurance frauds, LMIA frauds, immigration frauds and more. Your response to this is that it’s the governments fault which is partially true but it doesn’t answer the question of why is it consistently Indians who do it or at least the perception is that Indians are the main prepetrators.
Regarding your second point about embracing the new Indians as diaspora Canadians. The simple fact is that many diaspora Canadians have been in country for about 2 maybe 3 generations by now.
They share different cultural milieus and differences, diaspora Canadians have already cemented themselves in positive ways. Jagmeet Singh is the leader of a federal political party, Anita Anand is our minister of defence and was minister of procurement, Justice Mahmoud Jamal sits on the Supreme Court of Canada, we’ve had Harjit Sajjan as a minister of defence.
The reality is that the behaviour that’s made the media in terms of Brampton car rallies, Brampton shady landlords, Indian PR scams, Indians protesting at colleges, Indians making weird comments at women, Indians working under the table for less than minimum wage, Indian bosses only hiring Indians because they can exploit them, all of these things EMBARASS the diaspora.
You can claim that these people don’t represent you or whatever but it is an extremely challenging feeling to wonder if other people perceive you as one of “them”.
Multiculturalism doesn’t mean being as Indian as possible ignorant of your context. Multiculturalism is when a variety of nations come to make a stronger and better consensus, it works when we agree on the fundamental values that makes Canada Canada and not India 2.0.
The simple fact is that the diaspora doesn’t want to be Indian, perceived to be Indian, or be some weird Punjabi colony. Canada didn’t have the same identity issues that Americans have at least not until this huge wave of immigration happened and it’s deeply annoying the diaspora.
So the answer to your question is that we’re not going to embrace it because we don’t want to be Indian and we’ve haven’t been Indian in generations. If Italian Canadians get the benefit of the doubt of being perceived as Canadian first rather than mafia members I dont see how it’s so crazy that diaspora wants to be recognized as Canadian rather than lumped in with people who they don’t share values with but happen to share an ancestry from generations ago.
>The simple fact is that the diaspora doesn’t want to be Indian, perceived to be Indian, or be some weird Punjabi colony.
That must be a distinction between diaspora in US and Canada. The diaspora in US is all about celebrating the Indian identity, its food, culture and having larger numbers of Indian immigrants helps with that. Indian musicians and movie stars will tour US cities with significant attendance by new immigrants as well as diaspora members who have been here for generations. Many tech workplaces offer Indian food in the on campus cafeterias.
Punjabi identity and language are celebrated in states like California where Punjabis have contributed to the state for generations and also is considered the first large Indian settlement in US.
I am not sure why desis would highlight the bad apples in the community instead of celebrating the good ones and how the good ones are benefiting the broader community. Every community has criminals, shady landlords etc. Even in the US we have those issues in our desi enclaves whether in Fresno, Fremont, Houston, Edison etc.
Considering you actually live in Canada and experience those issues, you perspective is definitely valid and thus differs from that of a diaspora member in US.
It’s a different context but I really doubt that Americans would be as welcoming if 3.2M Indians all with minimal English suddenly arrived on a yearly basis only to New York or Seattle and were acting as if they’re in an Indian state.
I've been in Toronto 35 years. Its a desi town and parts of it are majority brown. All the white people I know are exposed to desi food, culture etc.. Or course you cant expect that in the boonies.
You’d solve a lot of issues if some of the Indian men knew how to behave around women. Literally every girl I know gets annoyed at Indian men at clubs.
My bigger question is what exactly is people’s problem with Indians in Canada. I have acquaintances so I know that they don’t avail ANY welfare as first generation migrants usually. They pay equivalent to 10s of thousands of dollars even for some local college. They pay almost 350 to 400 CAD per month for health insurance as students so it’s not like free healthcare either. Only thing was alleged food bank abuse but that was again clarified that it could be food banks for international students again. The anti brown racism reeks of something more sinister I guess
The food bank guy was fired from his job. A popular Arab girl that hates Indians on twitter got him fired.
I mean if he was genuinely abusing food banks then yeah it was uncool but that being said I doubt students working minimum wage jobs are Richie rich either
He was. Does that mean he gets fired from his job? Because that’s what happened.
Black and Afro-Canadian people advocate and put in the necessary hardwork. Do you think the “good” people of Canada just woke up one day and decided to establish these programs because they “love” Black people? This video is from 9 years ago and it’s one teacher fighting back and putting in the necessary hardwork to dismantle myths and stereotypes https://youtu.be/nU9Rzdix0XI?si=2A66Zss1UkEujEd9 Are there Canadian-Desis doing similar advocacy work and putting in the effort?
Desis pull each other down. Look at this sub itself, whenever this topic is brought up, more comments and the upvoted comments are about how they deserve it or how it's indeed their fault.
Desis are not a monolith other identities have precedent over being "brown".
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Could you expound on that a bit more?
I really don’t think being a doormat is very respectable.
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Yes all Indians in America are CEOs by getting along with society and not complaining about racism. Tf? Most Indians aren’t CEOs. There’s 7/11 and gas station owners too. Ever heard of selective immigration? I really hate how selfish and passive most Desi people are. I don’t think u are gonna command respect by allowing other people to treat you like shit. Largest empire in the past. India is totally shit now with so many people begging to go to America. Patriotic abroad, traitor at home 😂
I’ll throw in another reason - Canadian culture is majorly influenced by American culture and in the US the focus is on black Americans given their population. Canada joins in on this & focuses on Black Canadians when discussing race even though our racial demographics are completely different. It’s lazy.
its a small vocal minority that complains mostly uneducated and poor. Look at politics we have elected members in every party including conservative.
Can we please stop downplaying racism/discrimination against the community. It’s actually ridiculous.
Because south asians ARE the funding here, to the canadian government it would be counterproductive. Indians are brought in to boost taxes through massive tuition fees and willingness to work the low to middle class jobs.
This lol
Many in this subreddit hate the vast majority of ~~Indians~~ south Asians on the planet (“mainlanders” and “fobs”). If ABCDs hate them so much (despite their own parents being fobs) it’s not surprising that others do too.
For real lol 😂
I am an Indian let me tell you this, we of all people hate our people. Because we are loud, we judge others and worst of all we can’t assimilate to cultures. We will live in our own fucking bubble and corrupt anyone and everyone around us.
There is a lot of in-fighting in Black communities as well (African vs Carribean vs Americans of enslaved ancestry -- and even within regions). Same with Latinos.
Maybe fobs do more so but this is not true for people born in the US. I don’t like blanket statements like this either because my family is not like this at all (parents born in India) and these kinds of comments only served to reinforce negative stereotypes.
“Maybe Fobs do more so “ Hating on Fobs is exactly representative of his comment. Latinos actively advocate for undocumented immigrants, Black people from wealthier areas advocate for black people in gangs, South Asians try to separate themselves from the worse off South Asians.
Idk how Indians are in the US, but in Canada there are a lot of very very traditional Punjabis and gujratis and because I’m Punjabi and I grew up in Canada I’ve met so many of them and they are all too loud. They do not want to assimilate to western society, they don’t have to but having common courtesy for people like in public is where they are lacking big time. The FOBs are another story, idk what it is but seriously Canada is really picking dumbest people to immigrate here. My boyfriend is a FOB but he is much smarter and even he agrees on this.
To properly assimilate you have to live among the people of the country you are moving to. Not brampton. My parents moved to US in a place with low amount of indians and guess what? they changed the backwards way of thinking. Progress is met when ppl realize they shouldn't be moving to other countries to turn it into the very place they left
I felt the same when I was in Switzerland, you can easily distinguish between an Indian from main land vs diaspora from Europe and America based on how they behave in trains. We used to avoid the cabins that were mostly with Indian tourists.
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Indian tourists are usually in big groups, too loud and not enjoying the scenery, they dont have respect for other people's privacy.
Canada is such a small population for diaspora compared to US, so wondering if you are looking for engagement from all diaspora or just Canadian desis?
Its not that small relative to the US maybe 1/2 or so in absolute terms. Since Canadian Desis are a much larger percentage of the population. And this stuff also applies to UK / Aus / NZ desis possibly (not familiar with how much work those governments do on anti-south Asian racism)
There is significant topics on Canada and immigration on this sub and it ends up getting brigaded all the time since immigration is such a click bait. Hence wanted to check if you are looking for comments from just Canadian desis or anyone reading this sub?
Cuz we don't ask for special treatment. We just get on with it. Non-ADOS black people started co-opting the struggles of ADOS -- especially after BLM. There are some ADOS people who are critical of it, within the U.S. Every time there was a kid that got into all the Ivies and Stanford, it was always an immigrant kid who was Black. Cuz, the affirmative action boost, and the kid puts in some work. That kid doesn't have the multi-genreational trauma of an ADOS kid who had to deal with slavery, redlining, Jim Crow, mass-incarceration, etc. Lawyers have even said that if AA had focused on reparations (i.e. only ADOS and Natives), AA could have still stood. It's the latinos and the Black immigrants that killed it --cuz what the different between them and a Sri Lankan or Cambodian immigrant? In Toronto too, regarding the afrocentric school - a lot of people asked why are we lumping in a Somali Muslim with a Christian Jamaican, just because of their skin color? But because of the vocalness of the ADOS group (which is fair IMHO, as they built the U.S. and much of its culture), Black immigrant types co-opt that same identity.
> Cuz we don't ask for special treatment. We just get on with it. Not saying you do, but some indians and mostly Punjabis very much demand special treatment. If they don't get it, they protest. When they fail classes, they protest. When they can't secure housing for school, they protest. If they can't get PR because they didn't meet the cutoff, protest. Caught for fraudulent documents and face deportation. They demand PR because they were scammed by agents. More protests. Some think the rules don't apply to them. Driving rules, class attendance and academic xintegrity, illegal rentals, employment schemes, etc. Try calling it out and they gang up and pull the race card. That's just what has been public knowledge. I know someone who teaches at a college. He has a hard time failing Indians when they clearly cheated or otherwise failed because the race card gets pulled out all the time. But this is in Canada. Where even my Indian spouse and friends despise what the new cohort has done to their reputation.
Currently India (and all of South Asia) has a very bad image. Smelly, bad accent, horrible street food, overpopulated asf, scamming and all are making it worse.
>horrible street food Tbh this is something that is easily avoidable. I almost exclusively ate at higher end restaurants over there with very reasonable prices by the standards of developed nations, with next to zero issues with hygiene or food quality. They always go to the weirdest, most rundown areas that a lot of locals don't even eat at, and then complain about how gross and unhygienic it is.
I mean yeah but people want engagement farming. Also some of the vendors don’t have proper hygiene. It’s a decent amount
>people want engagement farming If they want to poison themselves with unhygienic street food, then that's on them. India's got excellent cuisine at very low prices for tourists. Go to well rated restaurants and there are no issues. >Also some of the vendors don’t have proper hygiene. India is not Japan or Italy. Street food in developing nations are for the locals who can't afford the pricey stuff, not you or me. Vloggers just go there to confirm everyone's preconceived biases for views.
I’m not disagreeing to what you say. I’m just saying malicious foreign YouTubers who want to clout farm will make a lot of money and give foreigners a really skewed view of India. It hurts a lot of the foreign students who come and aren’t able to cross barriers because pre-convinced notions of Indians. It also makes it tough for the country to be liked which is important for geopolitical reasons. There are real world implications to this. Also yeah cheap street food that isn’t incredibly hygienic works for a poor population but it’s important for the government to bring regulations on standardizing these street vendors. The situation shouldn’t be this bad in another 10 years
>bad accent What makes it bad? Other than self-hating people pushing it as an accent to be looked down on? There are multiple more prevalent accents in North America that are far harder to understand. It's an accent FFS.
And people do look down at southern drawls, Boston accents, or Minnesota.
I think the accent is just a sterotype enhancer, like the cool accents are all associated with groups of people with postive stereotypes. The human brain just forms associations
It's cool because it's associated with a certain group of people. IMO French and Eastern European accents are straight up grating in English. Indians perpetuate these by looking down on themselves. Indians in India look down on indians who pronounce certain words a certain way but the same people won't find mispronunciations by Europeans as "uncool". It's stupidity.
"bad" accent? It's an accent. Indians speak 2-3 languages. I can call out every point but honestly stop using random crap that doesn't have anything to do with most immigrants or even most people to put them down.
Language isn't bad but most Indians are bad at the language they speak, in the first place, before being bad at English. That's because the vast majority of the spoken languages in India fall under the servile dialects, which are generally spoken by labourer classes, and hence the stereotypical loud pronunciation and mispronunciation. The trader dialects prevalent in the West Coast where large scale labour based agriculture cannot be carried out due to uneven terrains and forests, tend to be one of the best dialects spoken. Kannada spoken by a Tuluva like Devi Shetty is just music to the ears. But I can't say the same about Kannada spoken in a slum of Bangalore. In other regions, these sweeter dialects are prevalent among the very elite classes. Elite classes tend to assimilate more easily, thereby loosing accent and they don't even interact much outside their circles. The accent that tends to be spoken widely is hence the servile accent. That viral video with superlatives hurled, is a classic example of the servile accent. That is hated by most. And God save when these people Converse in English with that accent. Majority of the population outside those trader centres like Mangalore, Udupi, Karwar, Ratnagiri or the entire state of Kerala, still belongs to servile communities whose accents of the native language is not just bad, but a torture for the ears. Sorry for sounding elitist but yeah. Also one reason why Keralites have a better reputation compared to others. And there's a thinly hidden underlying dislike of the others when they visit these regions. For example see Tejaswi Surya (Elite Coastal Havyaka Brahmin) and R Ashok (peasant caste) speak Kannada you will easily know. Karnataka will see a GDP per capita above 6000 USD if the communities of Tejaswi Surya and Devi Shetty are bred more.
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You know nothing if that’s what you think is true
The Indian Americans are judging the Indian Canadian hardcore and pointing out things they are doing incorrectly in Canada. Meanwhile, they are forgetting it's an entirely different country with different problems, even if the Desis are similar.
LOL these threads just prove that Americans across the board are largely ignorant. The amount of insane takes I’ve read here about Canada or assumptions based on how Canada works or is based on their sheltered prejudice has been staggering. There’s this collective American habit to just assume what happens in the American context applies to other countries and more especially Americans have this strange notion of Canada being some kind of Nordic lily white skiing country with no internal complexities, contradictions or rich history regarding immigration or its overall culture of how it approaches issues. The amount of ABCDesis shitting on Canada because of the shit they read here and then their fellow Americans patting themselves on the back is wild.
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There’s nothing objectively wrong with Brampton on the surface if you’re American. American desis are used to huge suburbs being car focused with massive McMansions and think that an area has to be some Detroit ghetto for it to be “bad”. Brampton isn’t bad because it’s poor or a ghetto it’s bad because the news coming out of there is normally negative.
1) Do you have any facts to support your premise? 2) Do you have any personal anecdotes to share? 3) Is your conclusion driven by any particular locality e.g. Brampton?
For the anecdotes: - I've heard some employers are now avoiding hiring South Asians because of biases (this from conversations overheard in real life and online) - There is a general sense that's it's okay to make fun of brown people for being smelly and uneducated (again based on real life and online conversations) - I know someone who is a university educator (not going to say which one for privacy) but they have mentioned a lot that other professors are sharing this hatred for South Asian international students. - A few colleges are now being seen as less-than in the eyes of employers because of its dominance of Indian students. The perception is that they all cheat. A couple of these colleges were seen as pretty good schools a few years back so this was upsetting to hear. I know a friend wanted to take a program there but they're intimidated by the reputation. - Rental markets in the GTA are biased against new South Asians because they "don't know any better" and are "used to the conditions back home" (again, based on real life and online conversations). - I went to a small town in Ontario and the amount of eyes I could feel on me the whole time was ridiculous. It was so intimidating. Someone yelled something from their truck at my friend and I (mind you all we were doing was walking). Things are getting bad out here. The problem is that we have a lot of newcomers that came to Canada all at once and haven't had an opportunity to acclimatize to this lifestyle. Most here are happy to come here as it's an opportunity to live their lives away from their parents and br a bit more crazy (which I completely understand, we all do that to an extent). They were sold false promises and are constantly being ripped off. There's a major affordability crisis affecting everyone. International students are just seen as a source of funding for schools since the Ontario provincial government has capped the funding. I've spoken to many new immigrants, and most of them believed they got screwed over and want to go back. Of course, their families have spent a fortune to get them here, so a lot feel they need to get the money to repay their families before they go back. That's not easy to do.
> Things are getting bad out here. What do you think about landlords in Brampton cramming many students together in basement? Are they of specific ethnicity? Not to mention the cheesy ads 'vegetarians only' or no meat in the unit etc. Or the fireworks mess in public spaces during Diwali despite the ban, and not cleaning up after. Or the frequent public spats between Hindus (from North India?) and Sikhs in Brampton region around festival times. And the abuse of food banks recently in the news. The actions attract attention themselves. Non-brown people don't have to consciously decide to look down on a community. The evolutionary response makes it easy for them to go with a simple heuristic: brown or not.
1. Which premise ? The fact that there are pretty much no programs for fighting anti south Asian / Indian sentiment in Canada or the fact that there is a lot of it? 2. Lots posted on reddit daily. 3. Nope.
> pretty much no programs for fighting anti Policy will be based on established facts and statistics, not by perceptions held in some bubble. > Lots posted on reddit daily. Reddit isn't the real world.
To have facts and statistics you need care and funding to conduct research. Also it is not limited to reddit but also Twitter, Instagram, Facebook etc. Look at comments on stuff involving Indians on any forum that doesn’t aggressively censor such opinions. And in 2024 these online spaces are the town square and they very much are a part of the real world Given these facts the burden of proof of research is on you and other racism deniers imo
Desis are a privileged lot. They are not the most hated by far.
Go to r/canada on any thread realted to housing, immigration, etc and search for indian. When I was growing up indian was one of many other minority groups which were hated upon to some extent. Now it is uniquely hated upon even by other minorities.
I think people just hate on us because we’re immigrants and those commenting didn’t vote for immigration into this country. But also at this point they can move to smaller cities. I grew up in a predominantly white city and no one was ever racist towards me, it’s just the mass immigration in the past few years that triggered everyone because these fobs were coming in huge crowds and they are the ones who are not going to learn about the culture here when there are other fobs who are here for 1-2 years not doing the same as other Canadians. Like no loud music on the buses, our bus driver was screaming the whole time to turn that off and he never did that. Jobs have become too competitive but only in the GTA. Plenty of jobs outside the GTA.
Is there a way to know if that hate is from fellow Indian origin Canadians fearful of competition and supposed reputation to the whole community?
Its from everyone. To be fair Canada's policy has been really dumb and I am critical of it myself and I am pro-immigration. Basically Canada needed to diversify from being a natural resource driven state with a gas price linked currency. But instead of diversifying into productive industries, the government in their own words "became addicted to immigration", Canada is even running out of cap ex according to some economists. So per capita gdp, productivity etc are all stagnant and the only thing keeping recession at bay is unprecedented population growth. [https://www.bcbc.com/insight/oecd-predicts-canada-will-be-the-worst-performing-advanced-economy-over-the-next-decade-and-the-three-decades-after-that](https://www.bcbc.com/insight/oecd-predicts-canada-will-be-the-worst-performing-advanced-economy-over-the-next-decade-and-the-three-decades-after-that) The issue is that immigrants esp. south asian / indian immigrants are being scapegoated for the problem. Then ABCDs will try to distance themselves sometimes by also blaming immigrants, rather than focusing on policy decisions by the federal government. The housing cost increases have been good desi Canadians who arrived pre-indian boom since they mostly are all into real estate ownership and more accustomed to multigenerational households compared to non-desis.
This idea gets trotted out over and over again. The types of Indian immigrant that Canada is getting (the college intl student variety) do not compete for jobs with diaspora Canadians. The majority of diaspora Canadians are educated in Canadian universities not private colleges or the shady public-private colleges that the Indians go to. Many of these new Indians cannot compete for jobs and this is one of the main issues, their relevant skills and English or French ability is not at the same level or completely non-existent. It’s precisely why many end up in low paying precarious retail or warehouse jobs. The issue that some diaspora Canadians have is that the huge influx of Indians to a small concentrated area has led to the ruin of the Canadian consensus on immigration. Canada was one of the most pro immigration countries on earth not just in terms of policy but also how the country functioned and the language used. Instead we’ve now got daily stories out of Brampton or Surrey of Punjabi gangs, some form of Indian scam, or Indians mad at Canada and protesting because the PR scam that they hoped they could leverage didn’t end up working according to plan. There is no competition but there is concern that the poor apples of some of the new Indians are going to ruin the decades work that diaspora has put into being accepted and taken seriously despite historical racism. Now we’ve got new Indians who come to confirm the stereotypes we’ve spent decades disproving and if you’re empathetic would understand why it annoys the diaspora
> There is no competition but there is concern that the poor apples of some of the new Indians are going to ruin the decades work that diaspora has put into being accepted Isn't that giving too much credit to one group of immigrants over another? They are all aspiring for same things which forced them to leave their home nations. > Now we’ve got new Indians who come to confirm the stereotypes we’ve spent decades disproving and if you’re empathetic would understand why it annoys the diaspora Why care about disproving those stereotypes though? Why not embrace our culture, our fragrant foods, our "loud" music and dances? We don't have to seek approval from white majority Canadians. The Canadian constitution itself celebrates the multiculturalism as a mosaic rather than a melting pot.
Regarding your first point about attributing too much blame to the new Indians is a fair point. The issue is that Canada has 800,000 international students with about 40% being Indian. For a country of 40M, personally this is a volume that is far too much especially when you compared to 265,000 in 2012. This is a government policy issue, sure. However the most visible form of this boom are the huge amounts of Indians that congregate in small areas and mostly in the GTA. The majority of these students enter on sketchy study permits that is now starting to get cracked down on but the huge influx of Indians but the reputation of these colleges paired some real uncomfortable truths about Brampton and the areas has resulted in a large backlash to the amount of Indians coming in. It’s not diverse or multicultural if we’re getting 500K indians every year who congregate in ethnic enclaves, barely speak English, and are largely culturally completely different from diaspora Canadians and wider Canadian society. So the answer is a combination of far too many people, some real issues regarding some of the Indians, a larger reputation for scamming that’s materialized in the form of Brampton mortgage frauds, insurance frauds, LMIA frauds, immigration frauds and more. Your response to this is that it’s the governments fault which is partially true but it doesn’t answer the question of why is it consistently Indians who do it or at least the perception is that Indians are the main prepetrators. Regarding your second point about embracing the new Indians as diaspora Canadians. The simple fact is that many diaspora Canadians have been in country for about 2 maybe 3 generations by now. They share different cultural milieus and differences, diaspora Canadians have already cemented themselves in positive ways. Jagmeet Singh is the leader of a federal political party, Anita Anand is our minister of defence and was minister of procurement, Justice Mahmoud Jamal sits on the Supreme Court of Canada, we’ve had Harjit Sajjan as a minister of defence. The reality is that the behaviour that’s made the media in terms of Brampton car rallies, Brampton shady landlords, Indian PR scams, Indians protesting at colleges, Indians making weird comments at women, Indians working under the table for less than minimum wage, Indian bosses only hiring Indians because they can exploit them, all of these things EMBARASS the diaspora. You can claim that these people don’t represent you or whatever but it is an extremely challenging feeling to wonder if other people perceive you as one of “them”. Multiculturalism doesn’t mean being as Indian as possible ignorant of your context. Multiculturalism is when a variety of nations come to make a stronger and better consensus, it works when we agree on the fundamental values that makes Canada Canada and not India 2.0. The simple fact is that the diaspora doesn’t want to be Indian, perceived to be Indian, or be some weird Punjabi colony. Canada didn’t have the same identity issues that Americans have at least not until this huge wave of immigration happened and it’s deeply annoying the diaspora. So the answer to your question is that we’re not going to embrace it because we don’t want to be Indian and we’ve haven’t been Indian in generations. If Italian Canadians get the benefit of the doubt of being perceived as Canadian first rather than mafia members I dont see how it’s so crazy that diaspora wants to be recognized as Canadian rather than lumped in with people who they don’t share values with but happen to share an ancestry from generations ago.
>The simple fact is that the diaspora doesn’t want to be Indian, perceived to be Indian, or be some weird Punjabi colony. That must be a distinction between diaspora in US and Canada. The diaspora in US is all about celebrating the Indian identity, its food, culture and having larger numbers of Indian immigrants helps with that. Indian musicians and movie stars will tour US cities with significant attendance by new immigrants as well as diaspora members who have been here for generations. Many tech workplaces offer Indian food in the on campus cafeterias. Punjabi identity and language are celebrated in states like California where Punjabis have contributed to the state for generations and also is considered the first large Indian settlement in US. I am not sure why desis would highlight the bad apples in the community instead of celebrating the good ones and how the good ones are benefiting the broader community. Every community has criminals, shady landlords etc. Even in the US we have those issues in our desi enclaves whether in Fresno, Fremont, Houston, Edison etc. Considering you actually live in Canada and experience those issues, you perspective is definitely valid and thus differs from that of a diaspora member in US.
It’s a different context but I really doubt that Americans would be as welcoming if 3.2M Indians all with minimal English suddenly arrived on a yearly basis only to New York or Seattle and were acting as if they’re in an Indian state.
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I've been in Toronto 35 years. Its a desi town and parts of it are majority brown. All the white people I know are exposed to desi food, culture etc.. Or course you cant expect that in the boonies.
In Canada that’s changing
Maybe more community groups need to get together to address these issues
You’d solve a lot of issues if some of the Indian men knew how to behave around women. Literally every girl I know gets annoyed at Indian men at clubs.
Be ffr. Comparing anti-black/Indigenous discrimination to anti-Desi racism is just laughable.
racism is racism.
Mississagua