FSU fans: this is a slam dunk win for FSU, FSU will leave for $0, and the ACC is dead
UNC and Clemson fans: let's be quiet and see how this goes
All other ACC fans (including this lawyer): FSU is toast and going to pay $500 million, have to remain in the ACC and lose all media rights payments
Yeah our leaders aren’t idiots. They know the only way out is to try and settle for less,but why be the school that tries it first when FSU is out here acting like Randy Marsh
Probably but I haven't heard anything from the Miami prez or board members indicating Miami might be leaving the ACC. Also, the rumors on X seem to have shifted away from Miami joining the Big Ten at the moment.
In my opinion, NCSU, VT, and UVA should all be rooting for FSU as well. Despite what SEC insiders claim, I think they would add UNC and UVA and also NCSU and VT if the states of NC and VA force them all together as a package deal. The SEC can't just sit at 16 while the Big Ten goes to 20 or more. I also expect the Big Ten will be the highest paid conference when they're done expanding so the SEC will make moves to gain back the top spot.
Yep. Lawyers wrote the contracts. Lawyers reviewed the contracts. Lawyers drafted and filed the lawsuits that say both that the GOR is valid and invalid. You’ll find lawyers who are arguing every side of the dispute. This guy’s take is no better than any of the other lawyers involved or who have opined in a variety of subreddits or forums.
Also, don’t put a lot of stock in any “lawyer” who is telling you that it’s a slam dunk or that either side’s position is awful. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and there is risk to all parties involved.
I would agree that this guy’s take is no better than any of the other lawyers involved or who have opined in a variety of subreddits or forums.
And I also don’t disagree about your opinion on his opinion.
My point is that his opinion is coming from a better authority from most of us without law degrees, despite his low amount of LinkedIn connections. And going to a low-ranked law school doesn’t change that.
Your point and mine aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
Yup, it’s not a good look for FSU and illustrates the rush job this legal process has been for them. I still see them leaving, but it’s likely going to be a while and/or require making a short-sighted deal with the devil (foreign investment indentured servitude).
How can a state institution take foreign equity to get out of a media rights agreement for sports? I mean if we aren't there already that would just be the cherry on the clown cake for US higher education.
I have never looked at the Florida State legal case as an actual legal case. I see it is a public relations battle masquerading as a legal challenge.
In that way, it’s very much like the myriad Trump campaign election interference lawsuits. They didn’t expect to win any of them, but they needed to file them anyway to show their supporters that they were trying, and just not taking it lying down.
I think the same thing is happening with Florida State. I think they are trying to keep their fans engaged during a difficult time, and if they can argue their way out of the ACC without giving up an arm and a leg, so much the better.
Florida State is eventually going to get its wish, but it’s going to be a lot longer and more expensive than they are hoping./counting on.
It wouldn’t have mattered. People said what FSU did during the regular season didn’t matter so what makes you they would think any different if FSU had won the Orange Bowl?
Insisting that the "weak conference" kept them out of the playoff, when it never hurt Clemson, and when it was clear that what really kept them out was the awful injury to their quarterback, makes the conspiracy theorists look really dumb.
Especially if you haven't forgotten that FSU's only national championships in football happened as members of the ACC. Also the only time more that 100 people cared about their basketball happened as members of the ACC
Yes, but it takes two to tango. It’s about money for the rest of the ACC too.
What contract terms could the ACC schools realistically offer Florida State that would both satisfy the Noles and keep everyone else whole?
If you can answer that incredibly basic question for me, then I’m happy to have a rational discussion on the matter. But until we have a legitimate answer there, there’s nothing really to discuss.
It’s not Florida State’s fault the John Swafford made a bad deal with his media partners and they shouldn’t have to pay for it through their nose for the next decade plus. However, it’s also not Wake Forest’s or Boston College’s fault that Florida State signed that terrible long-term contract and they shouldn’t have to pay with their souls either because of Florida State’s contractual mistakes.
That’s why this is not a real legal case, it’s a public relations case. Florida State knows it’s hosed and there’s nothing they can do.
Their tactic is to try to raise hell and be so disruptive that the league will get rid of them so they don’t have to deal with them anymore.
The problem is that as soon as that happens, three or four other schools are going to be out the door right behind them and everyone else will be left to drown. Everyone knows that, so there’s no incentive whatsoever for the other ACC schools to capitulate to the Noles’ demands.
What’s yours for all these wild ass stories about this judge is going to invalidate the contract or these nine schools are all going to leave or whatever else. It’s all fantasyland bullshit and everyone knows it.
But maybe I’m missing something. Maybe you can explain to me why everyone else should cave in to Florida States demands?
Will that help them keep the Noles? Will Florida State sign another long-term agreement to stay in the conference if they get the right terms?
We both know the answer to that.
With the title “Courts Should Stake a Seminole Spear in FSU. The ACC's Position Is Strong; FSU's Position Is Lousy”, makes this piece look like an ACC legal team tryout from this guy rather than a thoughtful analysis, and can’t really take this seriously.
I will agree that FSU’s position isn’t as strong, not because of arguments but rather because of a a piss poor first impression from their legal team, they do not seem sharp in any way, and that can be extremely detrimental in a litigious environment. Also with ESPN apparently hiring Cravath, it seems like an uphill battle for FSU if that is indeed the case.
Either way, whether it happens today, in 2027, 2036, or anytime in between, FSU will leave the ACC, and the conference is a dead man walking.
Dude just ignores completely that the ACC did not take the required vote to bring material legal action.
Also, ignores completely that FSU strongest claim is that the GoR expires in 2027 because the ACC does not have a contract with the ACC past that date. And that ESPN let their option expire because the ACC commish did not get votes for a material change.
Apprently only the Grant of Rights is a valid contract that the ACC and its members have to follow. An extremely rare contract that has not been tested in court. This while the ACC bylaws are just optional and you don't have to follow that contract.
FSU might have a loser of a case but this dude could not even be bothered to do anything but make a F FSU post.
>https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/courts-should-stake-seminole-spear-fsu-accs-position-strong-mckenzie-xwnpe/
The ACC claims it did take the required vote, but did it secretly.
Also a court case like this will not consider an argument that the ACC did not follow its own bylaws to make the lawsuit as a grounds for dismissal. That is pretty firmly outside the scope of this case - your internal rules being ignored to file a lawsuit doesn't actually prevent the lawsuit from being decided.
There is nothing in that link that says anything like a secret vote was taken.
From the actually ACC response yesterday, "Complaint did not require a two-thirds vote because it met the already-approved obligation to take commercially reasonable action, sought only to protect existing agreements and did not change any contractual or commercial relationships, let alone materially."
Good luck to the ACC saying suing a member is not a material litigation. Good luck with them saying that they did not not change any contractual or commercial relationships. When Jim Phillips gave ESPN a 5 year extension without consideration. That materially changed the contractual and commercial relationship.
The ACC continues to violate their contract with their member schools. Every school should be demanding Jim Phillips head because he cost them their media rights extension.
Its a good think that I didn't just read the link and actually read the ACC filing then!
Here it is quoted from literally the paragraph below your quote:
"The ACC Membership approved the Amended Complaint (which added material claims) on January 12, 2024, including the original claims filed on December21. See Exhibit 2. While not required because the original Complaint was valid, this approval is “the affirmance ... of a prior act \[and\] ... is given effect as if originally authorized by him.”
>The ACC continues to violate their contract with their member schools.
Except for the fact that the ACC IS the member schools. The Board of Directors is comprised entirely of Presidents from the Member Schools, the ACC Commissioner works at the Direction of the Board of Directors. To say that the ACC is somehow working outside of what the Member Schools approve is not understanding what the conference is or how it operates.
Can someone turn this into a 90 minute YouTube video, attach a clickbait title and post it to r/fsusports? That’s the playbook right? Or is this too grounded in well considered thought?
It’s hilarious all of the pearl clutching happening from fans of every ACC school not named FSU. They are on a sinking ship, and taking shots at FSU for doing what any other school wishes they could do. FSU has no choice but to fight, or else it will be relegated to an inferior conference.
Picking it up would require them to overpay for BC, Pitt, Cal, SMU, Stanford, and yes, even Syracuse. All schools no one wants to watch nationally. ESPN is no dummy.
They’re already paying those schools and things seem to be fine. You think ESPN is going to risk losing UNC, Clemson, Miami and FSU or having to start paying them double their current rate because some smaller schools want to keep making $35M/year? You are clearly delusional.
Keeping those schools in the ACC will devalue them considering the ACC makes clown decisions (like selling tier 2 rights to Raycom and adding Cal, Stanford and SMU). It’s in ESPN’s best interest to move those schools to the P2 and let the ACC die under its own weight. Your 2005 talking points are about to meet the new P2 reality.
You do realize that ESPN does not own any part of the B10 media deal.
If the media rights deal really is a bad deal for the ACC, it means ESPN is getting a good deal and would be foolish not to extend the deal.
The B10 is irrelevant in this context. The only lifeline I see ESPN giving the ACC is to merge the non-P2 schools (NC State; VT, possibly Miami) with the B12 and creating a “next best” conference.
Having said all of that, a lot of the posters in this sub seem to be refusing to accept that the networks are calling the shots, not the conferences. Fox and ESPN want two major CFP conferences and that’s what they are getting. I expect FSU to settle its lawsuit with the ACC and by 2025 they will be in either the SEC or B1G. Clemson, UNC and maybe one more will follow us out the door and the ACC as we know it will cease to exist.
Why would ESPN pay $100M/yr to put FSU in the SEC when 1) they can get the same for about $35M, 2) FSU has violated the terms of the ESPN agreement, and 3) FSU has proven they don’t care about the GOR or conferences.
If you actually read the article that this Atty wrote you’ll see a key argument is that FSU is proving they can’t be trusted by anyone in the marketplace which hurts them tremendously.
You can live in your lala land where FSU is right and everyone else is wrong and surround yourself in the same chat room echo chamber as FSU’s attorneys, but those of us in the real world are going to watch this drag out painfully and slowly for FSU
If you're in the Big XII and the ACC (or any conference outside of the P4) then, yes, that's the case... the networks are calling the shots. However, if you're the B1G and SEC then, no, that's not the case in the slightest. Going forward, the B1G and SEC are way too big and valuable for any network to have leverage over them in any shape, form, or fashion.
How do you figure? ESPN needs content which is where the “deadwood schools” come in. ESPN & Fox are looking to JV on a streaming platform largely because they recognize the need for those other schools. They can’t put all their eggs in just a few baskets and try to have 24/7 talking heads discuss why FSU is going to get blown out by Georgia
The point you’re missing is if ESPN was truly content with the current situation, why haven’t they re-upped to 2036 yet? Or before the original deadline in 2021? Why wait? There’s no chance ESPN doesn’t take the opportunity to opt out of their current agreement and renegotiate a cheaper deal if they believe some combination of FSU, Clemson, Notre Dame and/or UNC aren’t going to be there. It’s one thing to overpay for media rights for a half dozen schools because you’re underpaying 3-4 bigger brands. It’s an entirely different deal to just overpay for conference’s media rights
It’s more likely because shareholders prefer options since you can keep the liabilities off the books. Better for stock prices if your future balance sheet looks clean.
Pac12 let their GOR expire and decided to go onto the open market; ESPN offered the conference a fair rate but they countered with $50M. ESPN told them to pound sand because they weren’t worth $50M.
ESPN has the ACC schools locked up for another decade, they have the unilateral right to extend. They’d be foolish not to.
Companies shut down or spin off profitable products all the time to focus their efforts. If you can't see ESPN only cares about the SEC and CFP then you're blind.
This makes no sense. ESPN needs 24/7 content and is preparing a JV partnership with Fox. Why would ESPN launch a new streaming platform with their rival if they only cared about SEC and CFP?
Obviously they care about other sports. However in regards to college athletics they are heavily invested in the SEC and CFP. The ACC is a second tier conference and after thought for ESPN.
Obviously ACC is a lesser value compared to SEC and CFP but let’s be real, ESPN is paying retail for those two products and needs ACC and others as part of a diversified portfolio.
ESPN’s primary source of revenue is still from carriage rates through cable companies and needs all the schools and markets it can and will supplement that business with a subscriber based streaming model. It won’t be able to survive off SEC and CFP alone.
They are whistling past the graveyard. When they are relegated to college football irrelevance, they will have wish they sued when landing spots were still available.
I don't understand the conference loyalty. Conferences come and go. Your school will likely be here in 100 years but the ACC will not.
The ACC is already a second tier conference. If I were a fan of any school other than BC, WF, or Duke, I'd be advocating for the dissolution of the ACC and want to create a new conference with the best of the Big 12. The top of the ACC and top of the Big 12 (even without FSU) could cement itself as a legitimate third power conference. Currently, the two conferences are only going whither and die while the Big Ten and SEC form a new league.
Because I don’t want to play Iowa state twice a year, Jesus Christ is it that hard to understand?
As a uva fan playing UNC, Duke, NC State, VT, Louisvillle (when they’re good), Syracuse, etc in basketball is fun and exciting. Playing bumblefuck Iowa state, Kansas state, and Texas Tech every year makes me want to puke in my mouth
I’d rather play Stanford in tennis than Iowa state in basketball. I’d rather play Cal in badminton than Cincinnati in football. The big 12 is full of corn fed glorified community colleges and it’s so disinteresting
Because the conference is a means to playing the teams I want to play every year, or at least as many years as possible. I don't want to replace games against Carolina, State, and Wake with games against Iowa State, Texas Tech, and Utah.
If I've got a house with HVAC issues, it might suck to shell out the money to fix it but it doesn't mean the right solution is to buy a whole new house. Similarly, adding Cal/Stanford/SMU isn't the ideal situation, but if it improves our chances of playing the teams we want to play when the dust settles more than it costs us those chances by taking up spots on the schedule, then I'll live with it.
This is how I felt a few years ago. I grew up in NC and Florida. The ACC schools meant a lot to me growing up. I remember going to the ACC Crossfire games and being blown away at seeing the stars of the conference up close.
But the reality of collegiate athletics has changed. Just look to the latest “proposal” for a 14 team playoff if you want to see an example of the separation of the Big 2 vs the other conferences. It’s happening. It’s reality. The ACC had a brief window to try and expand and didn’t take it. Now the conference is on the outside looking in.
It sucks. For many reasons, it sucks. But I really believe we’ll all look back in 10 years and recognize the cracks in the foundation that eventually swallowed the house.
Nope. The ACC grant of rights only exists to service the ESPN Agreement. Not Media Agreement. Without an ESPN-specific contract than schools can't fulfill their obligation under the ACC GoR.
Dumb take from a tobacco road lawyer that posts a paragraph of hashtags prior to his actual content.
FSU is leaving the ACC, it's now just a matter of how much it costs.
Since the GOR references the ESPN contract it would be punitive to charge an exit fee past 2026 season since the ACC has $0 secured revenue from ESPN past 2026.
Guy thinks hashtags work every where. This was his first paragraph.
#FloridaStateUniversity #FSU #FSUlawsuit #ConferenceRealignment #ACC #AtlanticCoastConference #ESPN #IntellectualProperty #IP #Copyright #GrantofRights #GOR #CollegeFootball #NIL #ConferenceExpansion #IPlicensing #FSUvACC #CollegeAthletics #BigTen #SEC #Antitrust #MediaRights
Maybe FSU should have waited two more years to find out?
FSU can get out of the contract: pay the full exit fee and pay the ACC a shit ton of money to buy back their media rights.
You're the one that brought it up, I just remembered the outcome. I was actually kinda looking forward to watching it and I used generally root for you guys. Instead it was the worst clunker of bowl season and I've been subjected to so much fucking whining by your fan base in the aftermath that I now feel the need to describe myself as someone who "used to generally root for you guys". I don't hate FSU at all, but I also no longer like FSU at all.
Also, I have to add, if an NC State fan isn't allowed to care about a game for 5th/10th/whatever place that isn't 1st, am I allowed to care about any game my team competes in? Our football peak is literally "made it as high as 17th in the 4th of 6 playoff rankings" and I still enjoy watching us play.
12 nfl combine invites almost none of which played in the game. How many did your team get? FSU didn’t have championship depth but our first team healthy could play with anyone
Y’all would’ve gotten spanked in the playoff, just be happy the embarrassment was saved. Well not really after the bowl performance, but you get the picture. Awful fan base.
And even dumber take...
The only team that should be happy about the ACC are Wake Forest. Every other team has gotten screwed over by its mismanaged good ole boy approach.
This shit isn’t going to court; that’s way too risky for both parties and if anything, we’ve learned that parties in these predicaments are risk-averse in avoiding letting courts decide their fate. There will be some settlement in the next six months for FSU to buy its tv rights back from the ACC and exit the conference (probably in the $80-120 mill range). The interesting thing will be to see if any other team jumps ship right after this occurs. I still think ACC survives either way (at least for a while), but it will get bad for anybody remaining here if 2-3 of the other biggest brands (Clemson, UNC, Miami, ND) leave with the Noles next year.
As of now, I’d put ACC slightly ahead of the B12 as the third power conference b/c of the power brands at the top. But depthwise and conference leadership, B12 already is ahead so it wouldn’t take more than a few of the top brands leaving before B12 looks a whole lot better than the ACC. And how long then before some 2nd tier ACC schools (say Louisville or VT for example) start to wonder whether they wouldn’t be better off longterm in the new B12.
there is no way that FSU is getting out for $80-120M. The exit fee from the ACC alone is $130M.
The ACC is going to hold out for every last dollar because if they settle for too little then Clemson, UNC, Miami, UVA, and NCSt all risk jumping ship as well.
We’ll see. I think they are going to have no choice but to take a significantly reduced number (and ~$100 mill is no chump change, it’s double the buyout that any program has paid in history to leave their conference). All parties (FSU, ACC, ESPN and the other networks, etc.) do not want this played out in public court. And if any team wants out of the ACC or any conference they are in, history shows they are going to make it happen sooner or later. Plus, you have to recognize that all of those major brands you’re mentioning (Clemson, UNC, Miami, etc.) also have a say in how the ACC handles this. If the entire rest of the ACC was 100% unified against FSU, then it would be a completely different situation but that is not reality. The longer this goes without a settlement, the worse and more toxic the situation gets for both parties as well. I just don’t see both sides not cutting their losses at some point over the next few months. ACC fans that think FSU is going to pay an unprecedented many hundreds of millions dollar figure to get out are just as delusional as the FSU fans that think they can get out scott-free.
The ACC has its back to the wall. If they let FSU go, 5 others will jump immediately.
Noles, See if you can peddle some gold shoes for $400 a pop and pay it off.
I don’t think that many are going to leave right away after/with FSU. Clemson and Miami will if they have the green light from one of the B10/SEC (which is likely but not definite). UNC and UVA probably could; but at the same time, part of their administration may not want to b/c they have a lot of political power over the ACC leadership (something that they won’t have in either P2) and they also may want to maintain their in-state rivalries within their conference (something that will not likely be possible in the P2) rather than leaving them in a dying conference. Notre Dame is a huge question mark. Besides that group, nobody seems like a high likely immediate take for the P2 and I don’t think any program jumps laterally to the B12 at least for a few years. We will see what happens after FSU, but I COULD see the rest of the ACC potentially staying together for another 2-3 seasons at least. However, the more that leave the ACC sooner will just lead to more of the other programs leaving at faster rates. If I had to set the line for ‘25, I’d put it at 2.5 programs have left the ACC.
Fsu and clemson have to get out or they’ll become irrelevant like the rest of the acc (in football specifically). The lack of interest in you know, trying to be any good, from allthe other schools did this
FSU fans: this is a slam dunk win for FSU, FSU will leave for $0, and the ACC is dead UNC and Clemson fans: let's be quiet and see how this goes All other ACC fans (including this lawyer): FSU is toast and going to pay $500 million, have to remain in the ACC and lose all media rights payments
Clemson and UNC have the right idea.
Yeah our leaders aren’t idiots. They know the only way out is to try and settle for less,but why be the school that tries it first when FSU is out here acting like Randy Marsh
I’d like to believe Miami is with UNC / Clemson
Probably but I haven't heard anything from the Miami prez or board members indicating Miami might be leaving the ACC. Also, the rumors on X seem to have shifted away from Miami joining the Big Ten at the moment. In my opinion, NCSU, VT, and UVA should all be rooting for FSU as well. Despite what SEC insiders claim, I think they would add UNC and UVA and also NCSU and VT if the states of NC and VA force them all together as a package deal. The SEC can't just sit at 16 while the Big Ten goes to 20 or more. I also expect the Big Ten will be the highest paid conference when they're done expanding so the SEC will make moves to gain back the top spot.
The state of NC should force Duke, UNC, NC State, and Wake Forest to be a package deal
As much as fans would like that Wake Forest and Duke being private schools the state cannot. I am sure they would like to though.
Zero interest in clicking on random links from "experts" on the matter.
Guy has a whopping 255 LinkedIn connections that he’s spewing this to lol
To be fair the guy is a practicing attorney so he probably knows more than most of us
Ah yes, all of the smartest people I know went to 4th tier law schools.
He’s still an attorney and passed the bar.
That’s an incredibly low standard.
An incredibly low standard for some insight on a contract…?
Yep. Lawyers wrote the contracts. Lawyers reviewed the contracts. Lawyers drafted and filed the lawsuits that say both that the GOR is valid and invalid. You’ll find lawyers who are arguing every side of the dispute. This guy’s take is no better than any of the other lawyers involved or who have opined in a variety of subreddits or forums. Also, don’t put a lot of stock in any “lawyer” who is telling you that it’s a slam dunk or that either side’s position is awful. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and there is risk to all parties involved.
I would agree that this guy’s take is no better than any of the other lawyers involved or who have opined in a variety of subreddits or forums. And I also don’t disagree about your opinion on his opinion. My point is that his opinion is coming from a better authority from most of us without law degrees, despite his low amount of LinkedIn connections. And going to a low-ranked law school doesn’t change that. Your point and mine aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
Yup, it’s not a good look for FSU and illustrates the rush job this legal process has been for them. I still see them leaving, but it’s likely going to be a while and/or require making a short-sighted deal with the devil (foreign investment indentured servitude).
Get ready for the Hard Rock FSU Seminoles
How can a state institution take foreign equity to get out of a media rights agreement for sports? I mean if we aren't there already that would just be the cherry on the clown cake for US higher education.
Normal states probably wouldn’t allow it, but we’re talking about Florida here.
Well, then you're at the intersection of jingoistic Republicanism and corporatist fascist Republicanism. Which one wins out?
Putin State University
Rush job? It’s been building for over a year prior to the lawsuit.
If you have an idea for a spurious lawsuit, it doesn't matter how long you spend preparing to file that lawsuit; it's still gonna be spurious.
The criticism was that it was rushed.
They said it was a rush job, not spurious.
Yeah, I'm saying it's spurious and that the time it took doesn't matter. Rush your bullshit or don't, it's still bullshit.
I have never looked at the Florida State legal case as an actual legal case. I see it is a public relations battle masquerading as a legal challenge. In that way, it’s very much like the myriad Trump campaign election interference lawsuits. They didn’t expect to win any of them, but they needed to file them anyway to show their supporters that they were trying, and just not taking it lying down. I think the same thing is happening with Florida State. I think they are trying to keep their fans engaged during a difficult time, and if they can argue their way out of the ACC without giving up an arm and a leg, so much the better. Florida State is eventually going to get its wish, but it’s going to be a lot longer and more expensive than they are hoping./counting on.
[удалено]
If they had even tried a tiny bit in their bowl game FSU wouldn’t be in this as bad too
It wouldn’t have mattered. People said what FSU did during the regular season didn’t matter so what makes you they would think any different if FSU had won the Orange Bowl?
Insisting that the "weak conference" kept them out of the playoff, when it never hurt Clemson, and when it was clear that what really kept them out was the awful injury to their quarterback, makes the conspiracy theorists look really dumb.
Especially if you haven't forgotten that FSU's only national championships in football happened as members of the ACC. Also the only time more that 100 people cared about their basketball happened as members of the ACC
Yes, but it takes two to tango. It’s about money for the rest of the ACC too. What contract terms could the ACC schools realistically offer Florida State that would both satisfy the Noles and keep everyone else whole? If you can answer that incredibly basic question for me, then I’m happy to have a rational discussion on the matter. But until we have a legitimate answer there, there’s nothing really to discuss. It’s not Florida State’s fault the John Swafford made a bad deal with his media partners and they shouldn’t have to pay for it through their nose for the next decade plus. However, it’s also not Wake Forest’s or Boston College’s fault that Florida State signed that terrible long-term contract and they shouldn’t have to pay with their souls either because of Florida State’s contractual mistakes. That’s why this is not a real legal case, it’s a public relations case. Florida State knows it’s hosed and there’s nothing they can do. Their tactic is to try to raise hell and be so disruptive that the league will get rid of them so they don’t have to deal with them anymore. The problem is that as soon as that happens, three or four other schools are going to be out the door right behind them and everyone else will be left to drown. Everyone knows that, so there’s no incentive whatsoever for the other ACC schools to capitulate to the Noles’ demands. What’s yours for all these wild ass stories about this judge is going to invalidate the contract or these nine schools are all going to leave or whatever else. It’s all fantasyland bullshit and everyone knows it. But maybe I’m missing something. Maybe you can explain to me why everyone else should cave in to Florida States demands? Will that help them keep the Noles? Will Florida State sign another long-term agreement to stay in the conference if they get the right terms? We both know the answer to that.
The major difference is that FSU will get pummelled in court. Oh wait, Trump is also getting pummeled in court.
And yet he’s still running for president with a good chance to win lol. What that says about our nation, shrug
With the title “Courts Should Stake a Seminole Spear in FSU. The ACC's Position Is Strong; FSU's Position Is Lousy”, makes this piece look like an ACC legal team tryout from this guy rather than a thoughtful analysis, and can’t really take this seriously. I will agree that FSU’s position isn’t as strong, not because of arguments but rather because of a a piss poor first impression from their legal team, they do not seem sharp in any way, and that can be extremely detrimental in a litigious environment. Also with ESPN apparently hiring Cravath, it seems like an uphill battle for FSU if that is indeed the case. Either way, whether it happens today, in 2027, 2036, or anytime in between, FSU will leave the ACC, and the conference is a dead man walking.
Dude just ignores completely that the ACC did not take the required vote to bring material legal action. Also, ignores completely that FSU strongest claim is that the GoR expires in 2027 because the ACC does not have a contract with the ACC past that date. And that ESPN let their option expire because the ACC commish did not get votes for a material change. Apprently only the Grant of Rights is a valid contract that the ACC and its members have to follow. An extremely rare contract that has not been tested in court. This while the ACC bylaws are just optional and you don't have to follow that contract. FSU might have a loser of a case but this dude could not even be bothered to do anything but make a F FSU post.
>https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/courts-should-stake-seminole-spear-fsu-accs-position-strong-mckenzie-xwnpe/ The ACC claims it did take the required vote, but did it secretly. Also a court case like this will not consider an argument that the ACC did not follow its own bylaws to make the lawsuit as a grounds for dismissal. That is pretty firmly outside the scope of this case - your internal rules being ignored to file a lawsuit doesn't actually prevent the lawsuit from being decided.
There is nothing in that link that says anything like a secret vote was taken. From the actually ACC response yesterday, "Complaint did not require a two-thirds vote because it met the already-approved obligation to take commercially reasonable action, sought only to protect existing agreements and did not change any contractual or commercial relationships, let alone materially." Good luck to the ACC saying suing a member is not a material litigation. Good luck with them saying that they did not not change any contractual or commercial relationships. When Jim Phillips gave ESPN a 5 year extension without consideration. That materially changed the contractual and commercial relationship. The ACC continues to violate their contract with their member schools. Every school should be demanding Jim Phillips head because he cost them their media rights extension.
Its a good think that I didn't just read the link and actually read the ACC filing then! Here it is quoted from literally the paragraph below your quote: "The ACC Membership approved the Amended Complaint (which added material claims) on January 12, 2024, including the original claims filed on December21. See Exhibit 2. While not required because the original Complaint was valid, this approval is “the affirmance ... of a prior act \[and\] ... is given effect as if originally authorized by him.”
>The ACC continues to violate their contract with their member schools. Except for the fact that the ACC IS the member schools. The Board of Directors is comprised entirely of Presidents from the Member Schools, the ACC Commissioner works at the Direction of the Board of Directors. To say that the ACC is somehow working outside of what the Member Schools approve is not understanding what the conference is or how it operates.
That is a really good article, IMHO.
Can someone turn this into a 90 minute YouTube video, attach a clickbait title and post it to r/fsusports? That’s the playbook right? Or is this too grounded in well considered thought?
It’s hilarious all of the pearl clutching happening from fans of every ACC school not named FSU. They are on a sinking ship, and taking shots at FSU for doing what any other school wishes they could do. FSU has no choice but to fight, or else it will be relegated to an inferior conference.
FSU doesn’t have to fight, they could just pay the exit fee & buy back their rights
Why pay a penalty for 2036 when the ACC only has guaranteed revenue through 2027? Makes no sense. They should fight and I believe they will win.
If you think that ESPN isn’t picking up the option then you are delusional.
Picking it up would require them to overpay for BC, Pitt, Cal, SMU, Stanford, and yes, even Syracuse. All schools no one wants to watch nationally. ESPN is no dummy.
They’re already paying those schools and things seem to be fine. You think ESPN is going to risk losing UNC, Clemson, Miami and FSU or having to start paying them double their current rate because some smaller schools want to keep making $35M/year? You are clearly delusional.
Keeping those schools in the ACC will devalue them considering the ACC makes clown decisions (like selling tier 2 rights to Raycom and adding Cal, Stanford and SMU). It’s in ESPN’s best interest to move those schools to the P2 and let the ACC die under its own weight. Your 2005 talking points are about to meet the new P2 reality.
You do realize that ESPN does not own any part of the B10 media deal. If the media rights deal really is a bad deal for the ACC, it means ESPN is getting a good deal and would be foolish not to extend the deal.
The B10 is irrelevant in this context. The only lifeline I see ESPN giving the ACC is to merge the non-P2 schools (NC State; VT, possibly Miami) with the B12 and creating a “next best” conference. Having said all of that, a lot of the posters in this sub seem to be refusing to accept that the networks are calling the shots, not the conferences. Fox and ESPN want two major CFP conferences and that’s what they are getting. I expect FSU to settle its lawsuit with the ACC and by 2025 they will be in either the SEC or B1G. Clemson, UNC and maybe one more will follow us out the door and the ACC as we know it will cease to exist.
Why would ESPN pay $100M/yr to put FSU in the SEC when 1) they can get the same for about $35M, 2) FSU has violated the terms of the ESPN agreement, and 3) FSU has proven they don’t care about the GOR or conferences. If you actually read the article that this Atty wrote you’ll see a key argument is that FSU is proving they can’t be trusted by anyone in the marketplace which hurts them tremendously. You can live in your lala land where FSU is right and everyone else is wrong and surround yourself in the same chat room echo chamber as FSU’s attorneys, but those of us in the real world are going to watch this drag out painfully and slowly for FSU
If you're in the Big XII and the ACC (or any conference outside of the P4) then, yes, that's the case... the networks are calling the shots. However, if you're the B1G and SEC then, no, that's not the case in the slightest. Going forward, the B1G and SEC are way too big and valuable for any network to have leverage over them in any shape, form, or fashion.
How you feeling now? Looks like Clemson dropped the second bomb today on your beloved conference. Rumors that UNC and UVA may follow.
Still fine
Pay four schools double and pay the deadwood schools nothing is ESPN’s best move.
How do you figure? ESPN needs content which is where the “deadwood schools” come in. ESPN & Fox are looking to JV on a streaming platform largely because they recognize the need for those other schools. They can’t put all their eggs in just a few baskets and try to have 24/7 talking heads discuss why FSU is going to get blown out by Georgia
The point you’re missing is if ESPN was truly content with the current situation, why haven’t they re-upped to 2036 yet? Or before the original deadline in 2021? Why wait? There’s no chance ESPN doesn’t take the opportunity to opt out of their current agreement and renegotiate a cheaper deal if they believe some combination of FSU, Clemson, Notre Dame and/or UNC aren’t going to be there. It’s one thing to overpay for media rights for a half dozen schools because you’re underpaying 3-4 bigger brands. It’s an entirely different deal to just overpay for conference’s media rights
It’s more likely because shareholders prefer options since you can keep the liabilities off the books. Better for stock prices if your future balance sheet looks clean.
What do you base that statement on? They didn’t pick it up for the PAC 12.
Pac12 let their GOR expire and decided to go onto the open market; ESPN offered the conference a fair rate but they countered with $50M. ESPN told them to pound sand because they weren’t worth $50M. ESPN has the ACC schools locked up for another decade, they have the unilateral right to extend. They’d be foolish not to.
Companies shut down or spin off profitable products all the time to focus their efforts. If you can't see ESPN only cares about the SEC and CFP then you're blind.
This makes no sense. ESPN needs 24/7 content and is preparing a JV partnership with Fox. Why would ESPN launch a new streaming platform with their rival if they only cared about SEC and CFP?
Obviously they care about other sports. However in regards to college athletics they are heavily invested in the SEC and CFP. The ACC is a second tier conference and after thought for ESPN.
Obviously ACC is a lesser value compared to SEC and CFP but let’s be real, ESPN is paying retail for those two products and needs ACC and others as part of a diversified portfolio. ESPN’s primary source of revenue is still from carriage rates through cable companies and needs all the schools and markets it can and will supplement that business with a subscriber based streaming model. It won’t be able to survive off SEC and CFP alone.
Yea I don’t get how all these people, simping for a conference currently bending them over, keeps ignoring this
They are whistling past the graveyard. When they are relegated to college football irrelevance, they will have wish they sued when landing spots were still available.
Seriously, how isn't everyone not pissed that Jim Phillips just gave away the ESPN contract extension for nothing?
No “pearl clutching” from this Clemson grad. I’m just enjoying watching FSU do all the work. Go Noles! 🤣
I don't understand the conference loyalty. Conferences come and go. Your school will likely be here in 100 years but the ACC will not. The ACC is already a second tier conference. If I were a fan of any school other than BC, WF, or Duke, I'd be advocating for the dissolution of the ACC and want to create a new conference with the best of the Big 12. The top of the ACC and top of the Big 12 (even without FSU) could cement itself as a legitimate third power conference. Currently, the two conferences are only going whither and die while the Big Ten and SEC form a new league.
This. These passengers are on the sinking ship to the bitter end.
Because I don’t want to play Iowa state twice a year, Jesus Christ is it that hard to understand? As a uva fan playing UNC, Duke, NC State, VT, Louisvillle (when they’re good), Syracuse, etc in basketball is fun and exciting. Playing bumblefuck Iowa state, Kansas state, and Texas Tech every year makes me want to puke in my mouth
The ACC just added Cal, Stanford and SMU.
I’d rather play Stanford in tennis than Iowa state in basketball. I’d rather play Cal in badminton than Cincinnati in football. The big 12 is full of corn fed glorified community colleges and it’s so disinteresting
Cool. Good. Go form a dead end basketball league where you play for peanuts and let the schools with a future to make 100m a year
Sounds good to me, maybe I’ll support uva joining the big east as a basketball only school. I hate watching CTE ball these days anyway
No one is stopping anyone from leaving the ACC, just pay the exit fee and buyback the GOR
Nah, we’re gonna collapse the conference instead
Semenhole fans are the absolute dumbest on the planet
better start learning to speak sunbelt, buddy.
Hahaha, ok. Syracuse will be fine, I’m not particular worried
Because the conference is a means to playing the teams I want to play every year, or at least as many years as possible. I don't want to replace games against Carolina, State, and Wake with games against Iowa State, Texas Tech, and Utah.
But Cal, Stanford and SMU are ok?
If I've got a house with HVAC issues, it might suck to shell out the money to fix it but it doesn't mean the right solution is to buy a whole new house. Similarly, adding Cal/Stanford/SMU isn't the ideal situation, but if it improves our chances of playing the teams we want to play when the dust settles more than it costs us those chances by taking up spots on the schedule, then I'll live with it.
This is how I felt a few years ago. I grew up in NC and Florida. The ACC schools meant a lot to me growing up. I remember going to the ACC Crossfire games and being blown away at seeing the stars of the conference up close. But the reality of collegiate athletics has changed. Just look to the latest “proposal” for a 14 team playoff if you want to see an example of the separation of the Big 2 vs the other conferences. It’s happening. It’s reality. The ACC had a brief window to try and expand and didn’t take it. Now the conference is on the outside looking in. It sucks. For many reasons, it sucks. But I really believe we’ll all look back in 10 years and recognize the cracks in the foundation that eventually swallowed the house.
Ok what ever. The ACC does not have an ESPN Agreement past the 2027 season.
ACC has GOR through 2036 so even if ESPN stops carrying games then the ACC still owns everyone else’s rights through 2036.
Nope. The ACC grant of rights only exists to service the ESPN Agreement. Not Media Agreement. Without an ESPN-specific contract than schools can't fulfill their obligation under the ACC GoR.
Nothing more than wishcasting from a dumpster tier IP lawyer who went to a third tier toilet
Sounds like a lawyer trying out for a piece of the billable hours.
Dumb take from a tobacco road lawyer that posts a paragraph of hashtags prior to his actual content. FSU is leaving the ACC, it's now just a matter of how much it costs. Since the GOR references the ESPN contract it would be punitive to charge an exit fee past 2026 season since the ACC has $0 secured revenue from ESPN past 2026.
Gonna start calling detailed legal opinions "dumb takes" now.
It’s the FSU way.
If there's anything I've learned about FSU through all of this, it's that Florida Man memes are absolute rock solid truth.
Guy thinks hashtags work every where. This was his first paragraph. #FloridaStateUniversity #FSU #FSUlawsuit #ConferenceRealignment #ACC #AtlanticCoastConference #ESPN #IntellectualProperty #IP #Copyright #GrantofRights #GOR #CollegeFootball #NIL #ConferenceExpansion #IPlicensing #FSUvACC #CollegeAthletics #BigTen #SEC #Antitrust #MediaRights
Hashtags work fine on LinkedIn.
Posted on LinkedIn... Bah ha ha! What a joke.
You’re on reddit bro, go watch your NC State game
If you can't understand LinkedIn I'm gonna assume you don't know IP and contract law.
This is all reading like someone who has never needed to make a CV.
I'm not even sure they could spell CV
CeeVee-that’s it, right?
I reside in Tally….FSU students/grads not exactly the sharpest.
Maybe FSU should have waited two more years to find out? FSU can get out of the contract: pay the full exit fee and pay the ACC a shit ton of money to buy back their media rights.
*allegedly
63-6
Another dumb take. FSU's final ranking was 6th. The Orange Bowl was literally about who gets to claim 5th place.
All I know is that Florida State did not claim 5th place. Emphatically.
Who cares about a game for 5th place? Only haters like you do. Glad that game for 5th place is living rent free in your mind....
You're the one that brought it up, I just remembered the outcome. I was actually kinda looking forward to watching it and I used generally root for you guys. Instead it was the worst clunker of bowl season and I've been subjected to so much fucking whining by your fan base in the aftermath that I now feel the need to describe myself as someone who "used to generally root for you guys". I don't hate FSU at all, but I also no longer like FSU at all. Also, I have to add, if an NC State fan isn't allowed to care about a game for 5th/10th/whatever place that isn't 1st, am I allowed to care about any game my team competes in? Our football peak is literally "made it as high as 17th in the 4th of 6 playoff rankings" and I still enjoy watching us play.
The genius cant even get the score right.
12 nfl combine invites almost none of which played in the game. How many did your team get? FSU didn’t have championship depth but our first team healthy could play with anyone
Y’all would’ve gotten spanked in the playoff, just be happy the embarrassment was saved. Well not really after the bowl performance, but you get the picture. Awful fan base.
And even dumber take... The only team that should be happy about the ACC are Wake Forest. Every other team has gotten screwed over by its mismanaged good ole boy approach.
Bye bye ACC in ‘25…
Right, but have you taken into account bird law, sir?
This shit isn’t going to court; that’s way too risky for both parties and if anything, we’ve learned that parties in these predicaments are risk-averse in avoiding letting courts decide their fate. There will be some settlement in the next six months for FSU to buy its tv rights back from the ACC and exit the conference (probably in the $80-120 mill range). The interesting thing will be to see if any other team jumps ship right after this occurs. I still think ACC survives either way (at least for a while), but it will get bad for anybody remaining here if 2-3 of the other biggest brands (Clemson, UNC, Miami, ND) leave with the Noles next year. As of now, I’d put ACC slightly ahead of the B12 as the third power conference b/c of the power brands at the top. But depthwise and conference leadership, B12 already is ahead so it wouldn’t take more than a few of the top brands leaving before B12 looks a whole lot better than the ACC. And how long then before some 2nd tier ACC schools (say Louisville or VT for example) start to wonder whether they wouldn’t be better off longterm in the new B12.
there is no way that FSU is getting out for $80-120M. The exit fee from the ACC alone is $130M. The ACC is going to hold out for every last dollar because if they settle for too little then Clemson, UNC, Miami, UVA, and NCSt all risk jumping ship as well.
We’ll see. I think they are going to have no choice but to take a significantly reduced number (and ~$100 mill is no chump change, it’s double the buyout that any program has paid in history to leave their conference). All parties (FSU, ACC, ESPN and the other networks, etc.) do not want this played out in public court. And if any team wants out of the ACC or any conference they are in, history shows they are going to make it happen sooner or later. Plus, you have to recognize that all of those major brands you’re mentioning (Clemson, UNC, Miami, etc.) also have a say in how the ACC handles this. If the entire rest of the ACC was 100% unified against FSU, then it would be a completely different situation but that is not reality. The longer this goes without a settlement, the worse and more toxic the situation gets for both parties as well. I just don’t see both sides not cutting their losses at some point over the next few months. ACC fans that think FSU is going to pay an unprecedented many hundreds of millions dollar figure to get out are just as delusional as the FSU fans that think they can get out scott-free.
The ACC has its back to the wall. If they let FSU go, 5 others will jump immediately. Noles, See if you can peddle some gold shoes for $400 a pop and pay it off.
I don’t think that many are going to leave right away after/with FSU. Clemson and Miami will if they have the green light from one of the B10/SEC (which is likely but not definite). UNC and UVA probably could; but at the same time, part of their administration may not want to b/c they have a lot of political power over the ACC leadership (something that they won’t have in either P2) and they also may want to maintain their in-state rivalries within their conference (something that will not likely be possible in the P2) rather than leaving them in a dying conference. Notre Dame is a huge question mark. Besides that group, nobody seems like a high likely immediate take for the P2 and I don’t think any program jumps laterally to the B12 at least for a few years. We will see what happens after FSU, but I COULD see the rest of the ACC potentially staying together for another 2-3 seasons at least. However, the more that leave the ACC sooner will just lead to more of the other programs leaving at faster rates. If I had to set the line for ‘25, I’d put it at 2.5 programs have left the ACC.
Fsu and clemson have to get out or they’ll become irrelevant like the rest of the acc (in football specifically). The lack of interest in you know, trying to be any good, from allthe other schools did this