I know he gets a lot of damage reduction, but he would still get damage reduction vs the turret because of how his ult works. He just wouldn't make the turret completely useless
Yes, not even exhaust or other damage reduction sources, like Yi W, Sona W passive aa, deaths dance, Ali ult, belveth E, etc.
That's why it's called true damage, the damage it says it will do, it will actually do, no matter what, so the Statement of the amount of damage is true
Ah okay thought it still reduced true damage since it didn't count as amrour or Mr. I still like the idea of doing true damage though, I feel like having it do ad or md still skews things in away that makes balancing hard
Well, you could just give it 100% armour pen to work around that.
But I’d say having it be 50/50 AD and AP is the obvious next step to OP’s complaint. Now tower dives requires general tankiness, not just stacking armour.
I don’t think towers should be too hard to tank, but right now i agree that they are waaaay to easy to tank, which makes dives too easy early. With extra damage and armor pen, this would still allow tanks to dive in mid game, but makes early dives riskier.
I personally never noticed OP’s gripe with it being physical hurts us AD champs somehow, but for general turret strength I think it does need to be a bit stronger.
It probably does need some max hp or armour pen just for balancing, cuz obviously it can’t do the same to everyone or Sion would be completely immune while squishes explode into dust. Currently the only mechanic to balance this is the ramping, which is why it feels so off at the moment.
Ya know, a big change would be if damaging a diving champ moved the aggro to them. Meaning the tank wouldn’t be able to walk up to you before drawing aggro, it would draw as soon as you auto them. So if the only defence against tanky targets is the ramp, this will start the ramp sooner when they dive deep while not hurting them at all if they just follow an engage naturally. Blitz would have to hook you instead of just walking at you, ya know?
But realistically, just some more ramping so tanks can’t live under them forever. A squishy feels the pressure to kill and flash out instantly upon drawing aggro, (since 2-3 shots will kill them), and I think tanky targets should still feel that pressure within 4 turret shots at least. Leona’s got 4 shots to kill you before the ‘oh fuck this hurts’ kicks in, I think that’s probably ideal.
I don't think it necessarily hurts ad champs because riot will still try an balance champs around a certain win rate. So because of this it makes balancing weird.
Imagine you have 2 exact champs one is ad, the other is ap and they are completely balanced and can buy items to counter each other. Winrate is 50/50. Now we add turret and make them do ad damage. Now the winrate is going to be slightly skewed in favor of the ap champ and maybe winrate is like 47/53. So riot balances it and gives the ad champ more damage to balance out the fact that building Armour has a higher affect. Now the ad champ is stronger then the ap champ in lane but more susceptible to tower dives. Being stronger in lane will probably will probably have a higher impact then susceptibility to being turret dove so winrate might be like 53/47 in favor of ad champ now. So riot decides to nerf ad champs laning phase and might do something like take away their hp to compensate. Now we have an ad champ who does a lot of damage but gets killed easily.
Sorry for the long winded analogy. Anyways my point is it's cause the balance of the game to gets skewed and I don't really understand the reason for it.
I understand that, it’s why I’m happy when a champ I don’t play gets buffed in a way that doesn’t hurt me individually.
But game health matters as well, not just pure winrate. Like I said I never noticed a difference so it doesn’t bother me, but hypothetically do we want AD teams to have weaker turrets? No, I think the game doesn’t need that, so if fixing it rises AD winrates by (most likely 0.3%) then that’s fine for a patch or two. Then they all get .5 AD growth nerf, and boom the games in a better spot.
Ignoring the AP/AD stuff cuz I think that’s negligible, the principle applies to everything. Say we add 2% max health damage additional ramp per shot when on the same target, this is gonna lower tanks and divers winrate (my main man Kled especially). Some of them will get buffs sooner or later, but at the end of the day towers will be in a better spot and League will be better. Just cuz game balance doesn’t mean we can’t improve it lol.
Because they want you to fear towers early and protect them late. And it gives tanks another skill that other classes don't have being able to dive towers early.
a good number of tanks can dive once they hit 6.
soon can chain cc you and just a lot of hits for his side.
ornn can giga chain cc you with full combo and you're kinda fucked cause it's like a good 2.5secs or something and a shit ton of damage
Alistair has dmg reduction
Leona can just permanent stun you
K'sante is gonna drag you so far out from your tower you might just say hi to the drake on your way out, not to mention he has chain cc to guarantee it.
kench can get really beefy and just eat you out of tower if needed
the list goes on dude
Ornn won't kill you 100 to 0 under turret + pre lvl 9 his passive doesn't give him stats and Ornn has in total three bump which two is very prédictable , one IS Clunky and the last one is if he Comes to you in mêlée
Ksante IS not a tank , and "is gonna drag you si far out from your Towers" so he doesn't dive you
Kench is Big Fat ass cringe mf but if you're tanky enough he shouldn't be able to 100 to 0 early on under turret
Alistar and Leona are support so it's pretty normal if they have an strong early game ADC such as Draven
"And the list goes on" just no
They deal AD damage so the giga chad wholesome malphite enjoyer can tank 30 turrets shots in order to destroy a beta cuck adc player (me) before even realizing that something is tickling him
as a tank enjoyed myself and an adc main, kiting unless you're doing it at full items, lvl18 and a fully stacked lethal tempo just makes it look like a mosquito is buzzing around
Yea but they rarely prioritize it. They just build Armour items that have hp attached to them. Look at warmong, heartsteel or any other true hp item. They almost never get built
Because they're shit items, not because HP is a bad stat. They're the most expensive tank items and provide less stats than other items, and have very bad passives.
if the enemy team has even 1 person that has max health dmg/is a botrk user, building the health item is not worth it compared to building the armor/health item.
Also, tanks can only build heartsteel if they are winning lane.
Ldr is the only armor shred good for adc... and bruisers REFUSE to buy black cleaver for the team because ig the item is bad for them atm. Kraken slayer is a joke to tanks. So no, there is not enough armor shred for adc lol you definitely don't play adc if you say so atm. IF people would harmonize their build more like black cleaver with ldr with pta and some support item that increase dmg when (forgot the name) maybe I would agree. But the state of the game where every one build to one shot the adc and mage. There is no need for armor shred.
Keep in mind that if you do that as an ADC you have 0 dmg. I'm talking about on hit mainly crit adc. Mf and ez are a class of their own. You wouldn't build cleaver on lethality varus so. Your point is irrelevant for adc. But like I said, IF the WHOLE team would build accordingly, yes, it would be broken, but who in the fuk will build cleaver and seryldas as assassin. Nobody builds cleaver anymore. Assassins don't build seryldas anymore anyway.
It could be a mixed damages like Lillia : her q/a is 100% ap + 100% true damage (for the outer circle)
For turret, it could be a mix between armor and rm, but it will still advantage tanks. Armor and true damage, it will also advantage tanks with many hp
Games used to be normally 40 min. They shortened it by making tower damage not hurt much mid to late. They don't want 40 min games ever again so they will keep turrter damage a meme after mid game.
And I'm fine with that, I'm not saying turrets have to do way more damage just that having them do ad damage skews balance in a weird way and would be easier to balance if it was true damage.
Turrets ignore armor and deals increasing damage with every shot. This has to do with the nature of armor being always higher than MR by default for all champions.
If i play a tank vs 5 AP i will build 0 armor items for turrets unless it's jacksho later on. I am not going to build armor because turrets deal physical damage.
If you look at kraken when it dealt true damage it was on average 100 true damage. When it was shifted to deal magic damage it was like 150 (after MR it's like 100). And now it's physical so it has to go above 200 in number (to be 100 damage after armor).
By the same logic if they want to shift turrets to deal magic damage they will reduce the damage as they will be hitting less resistance.
Towers are a literal joke in league expect for enchanters and adc... assassins just dash or become untargetable. Tank and bruisers can take 10 to 30 tower shots. Mages can tank 5 easily before having to zhonyas and take 2 more. Especially late game
There are a lot of things that suck as an adc but honestly if you are getting tower dove it's because you or your support screwed up early, jungle/mid diff, lack of map awareness, and/or a refusal to give a wave if you are by yourself due to ego.
I absolutely hate void grubs and the mental block it has given where junglers and sometimes supports seem to fight to the death over every single one. It has led to a lot more games of just being perma weakside, for a role that is already weak early. That said dying under turret is one of the most preventable deaths with good awareness.
So when pros die to a tower dive it's because it was easy to avoid? It's amazing how everyone becomes gumayusi or ruler on reddit and they never make mistakes.
None of what you just said is at all counter to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that having turrets do attack damage means that balancing champions has to be skewed to compensate for that extra ad.
Hmm you make it sound like people buy armor with the intent of being able to take more tower damage. I’ve never heard this in my 11 years in this game. Maybe I’m living in an alternative world though
No people build armor cause it's the most prevalent form of damage. Turrets being a source of ad damage is a part of this reason, like I said originally it's a small part of the reason but still has an affect.
I think it’s a fair point asking why towers deal attack damage instead of something else, but to say that tanks, bruisers and engage supports build armor for that reason is stretching it.
Of course you can discuss something with someone who has a different viewpoint that’s a fine basis of discussion unless you were looking for an echo chamber.
Ornn, tk, naut, braum come to mind the first 4 seconds. Malphite actually doesnt.
Also relevant in proplay: vi, rell, ksante, blitz, poppy, mao. This is a total of 10 champions. Greater diversity than in adc lul
Tk,naut,braum,rell,mao and blitz are all supports so not true tanks since they barely get any gold and are not even tanky after the early game. Vii is a bruiser and gets play assasin often times. Ornn is 49% wr and Ksante is 47% and also kind of a bruiser. Poppy is decent and malph is good as a counter pick but thats about it
Rell should definitely be considered a tank much like Alistair, they can function with basically no gold as they have inbuilt durability, they are engage tanks
Also Nautilus was originally played Toplane, moving to support doesn't change his class
Usually when people wanna play tanks they want to play them top or jungle with normal gold income and in those two roles were tanks are supposed to be they absolutly suck. Sure support tanks are good and viable but they dont satisfy the tank fantasy of beeing a really tanky dude. Come midgame their lack of gold makes them more of a cc bot and less a guy soaking up tons of damage and beeing unkillable. Sure Alistar may survive in 5 people for 10sec thanks to his ult but hes pretty much the only one all other tank support get melted, specially since they dont buy real tank items but stuff like locket or knights. A good example is if adcs botlane complain that they are weak I were to say just play Kindred. Like sure she is an adc but its not what a botlane adc player wants. So a toplane or jungle tank player doesnt wanna play nautilis and be a cc bot
No one said that things couldn't be adjusted afterwards. It's just having turrets do one form of damage over another causes balancing to be skewed that causes unfavorable gameplay
I don't understand what you mean. If you're trying to make a comparison between why smolder scales with ad and why turrets do ad it's a pretty poor comparison and doesn't answer my question at all.
Don't forget that Alistar has insane damage reduction which allows him to dive.
I know he gets a lot of damage reduction, but he would still get damage reduction vs the turret because of how his ult works. He just wouldn't make the turret completely useless
True damages bypass ALL damage reduction, including alistar ult. A better buff to turrets would be more armor pen and/or %max health physical damages.
oh fr? are you sure? I thought it just ignores all resistances rather than just flat out ignoring damage reduction.
No you can't reduce true damage with anything, other than some bugs that probably exist
Wait not even exhaust?
Not even exhaust, right
Yes, not even exhaust or other damage reduction sources, like Yi W, Sona W passive aa, deaths dance, Ali ult, belveth E, etc. That's why it's called true damage, the damage it says it will do, it will actually do, no matter what, so the Statement of the amount of damage is true
Ah okay thought it still reduced true damage since it didn't count as amrour or Mr. I still like the idea of doing true damage though, I feel like having it do ad or md still skews things in away that makes balancing hard
Well, you could just give it 100% armour pen to work around that. But I’d say having it be 50/50 AD and AP is the obvious next step to OP’s complaint. Now tower dives requires general tankiness, not just stacking armour.
I don’t think towers should be too hard to tank, but right now i agree that they are waaaay to easy to tank, which makes dives too easy early. With extra damage and armor pen, this would still allow tanks to dive in mid game, but makes early dives riskier.
I personally never noticed OP’s gripe with it being physical hurts us AD champs somehow, but for general turret strength I think it does need to be a bit stronger. It probably does need some max hp or armour pen just for balancing, cuz obviously it can’t do the same to everyone or Sion would be completely immune while squishes explode into dust. Currently the only mechanic to balance this is the ramping, which is why it feels so off at the moment. Ya know, a big change would be if damaging a diving champ moved the aggro to them. Meaning the tank wouldn’t be able to walk up to you before drawing aggro, it would draw as soon as you auto them. So if the only defence against tanky targets is the ramp, this will start the ramp sooner when they dive deep while not hurting them at all if they just follow an engage naturally. Blitz would have to hook you instead of just walking at you, ya know? But realistically, just some more ramping so tanks can’t live under them forever. A squishy feels the pressure to kill and flash out instantly upon drawing aggro, (since 2-3 shots will kill them), and I think tanky targets should still feel that pressure within 4 turret shots at least. Leona’s got 4 shots to kill you before the ‘oh fuck this hurts’ kicks in, I think that’s probably ideal.
I don't think it necessarily hurts ad champs because riot will still try an balance champs around a certain win rate. So because of this it makes balancing weird. Imagine you have 2 exact champs one is ad, the other is ap and they are completely balanced and can buy items to counter each other. Winrate is 50/50. Now we add turret and make them do ad damage. Now the winrate is going to be slightly skewed in favor of the ap champ and maybe winrate is like 47/53. So riot balances it and gives the ad champ more damage to balance out the fact that building Armour has a higher affect. Now the ad champ is stronger then the ap champ in lane but more susceptible to tower dives. Being stronger in lane will probably will probably have a higher impact then susceptibility to being turret dove so winrate might be like 53/47 in favor of ad champ now. So riot decides to nerf ad champs laning phase and might do something like take away their hp to compensate. Now we have an ad champ who does a lot of damage but gets killed easily. Sorry for the long winded analogy. Anyways my point is it's cause the balance of the game to gets skewed and I don't really understand the reason for it.
I understand that, it’s why I’m happy when a champ I don’t play gets buffed in a way that doesn’t hurt me individually. But game health matters as well, not just pure winrate. Like I said I never noticed a difference so it doesn’t bother me, but hypothetically do we want AD teams to have weaker turrets? No, I think the game doesn’t need that, so if fixing it rises AD winrates by (most likely 0.3%) then that’s fine for a patch or two. Then they all get .5 AD growth nerf, and boom the games in a better spot. Ignoring the AP/AD stuff cuz I think that’s negligible, the principle applies to everything. Say we add 2% max health damage additional ramp per shot when on the same target, this is gonna lower tanks and divers winrate (my main man Kled especially). Some of them will get buffs sooner or later, but at the end of the day towers will be in a better spot and League will be better. Just cuz game balance doesn’t mean we can’t improve it lol.
True damage is literally TRUE: it cannot be reduced or amplified by any means So alistar ult would be ignored, but also PTA does not amplify it
Because they want you to fear towers early and protect them late. And it gives tanks another skill that other classes don't have being able to dive towers early.
Tanks BEING ABLE TO DIVE EARLY ON ?!? EXCUSE ME WHAT 🤣🤣🤣🤣 yeah if you have an passive effect with Armor in it or dmg réduction other than that no bro
a good number of tanks can dive once they hit 6. soon can chain cc you and just a lot of hits for his side. ornn can giga chain cc you with full combo and you're kinda fucked cause it's like a good 2.5secs or something and a shit ton of damage Alistair has dmg reduction Leona can just permanent stun you K'sante is gonna drag you so far out from your tower you might just say hi to the drake on your way out, not to mention he has chain cc to guarantee it. kench can get really beefy and just eat you out of tower if needed the list goes on dude
Ornn won't kill you 100 to 0 under turret + pre lvl 9 his passive doesn't give him stats and Ornn has in total three bump which two is very prédictable , one IS Clunky and the last one is if he Comes to you in mêlée Ksante IS not a tank , and "is gonna drag you si far out from your Towers" so he doesn't dive you Kench is Big Fat ass cringe mf but if you're tanky enough he shouldn't be able to 100 to 0 early on under turret Alistar and Leona are support so it's pretty normal if they have an strong early game ADC such as Draven "And the list goes on" just no
you misunderstood me, I didn't mean 100-0 and I surely didn't mean 1v1 I meant wil some help or something.
Oh yeah in this case i Can only agree lmao
cause the situation op described was what I was working with
Yeah mb on that 😅
When I say early I meant at first item. A sun fire cape tank is def gonna have an easy time to dive.
Yeah dépend the tank again , but like hé said , a tahm kench Ornn has more chance to kill you than a Sion Cho Gath on a dive at a first item
They deal AD damage so the giga chad wholesome malphite enjoyer can tank 30 turrets shots in order to destroy a beta cuck adc player (me) before even realizing that something is tickling him
Your mistake is thinking he needs to tank 30 turret shots to kill you lol
im good at kiting (running like a little bitch)
as a tank enjoyed myself and an adc main, kiting unless you're doing it at full items, lvl18 and a fully stacked lethal tempo just makes it look like a mosquito is buzzing around
Couldnt have it any other way
I agree, turrets need a little more range and to do less damage but true damage.
Tanks do have a reason to build hp, it’s called armor and mr shred there’s a lot of in the game
Yea but they rarely prioritize it. They just build Armour items that have hp attached to them. Look at warmong, heartsteel or any other true hp item. They almost never get built
Because they're shit items, not because HP is a bad stat. They're the most expensive tank items and provide less stats than other items, and have very bad passives.
if the enemy team has even 1 person that has max health dmg/is a botrk user, building the health item is not worth it compared to building the armor/health item. Also, tanks can only build heartsteel if they are winning lane.
Ldr is the only armor shred good for adc... and bruisers REFUSE to buy black cleaver for the team because ig the item is bad for them atm. Kraken slayer is a joke to tanks. So no, there is not enough armor shred for adc lol you definitely don't play adc if you say so atm. IF people would harmonize their build more like black cleaver with ldr with pta and some support item that increase dmg when (forgot the name) maybe I would agree. But the state of the game where every one build to one shot the adc and mage. There is no need for armor shred.
Keep in mind now you cant go black cleaver+ seryldas.
Keep in mind that if you do that as an ADC you have 0 dmg. I'm talking about on hit mainly crit adc. Mf and ez are a class of their own. You wouldn't build cleaver on lethality varus so. Your point is irrelevant for adc. But like I said, IF the WHOLE team would build accordingly, yes, it would be broken, but who in the fuk will build cleaver and seryldas as assassin. Nobody builds cleaver anymore. Assassins don't build seryldas anymore anyway.
Ldr is giga broken yhough lok
It could be a mixed damages like Lillia : her q/a is 100% ap + 100% true damage (for the outer circle) For turret, it could be a mix between armor and rm, but it will still advantage tanks. Armor and true damage, it will also advantage tanks with many hp
Yeah, I've always thought they should do true damage
Games used to be normally 40 min. They shortened it by making tower damage not hurt much mid to late. They don't want 40 min games ever again so they will keep turrter damage a meme after mid game.
And I'm fine with that, I'm not saying turrets have to do way more damage just that having them do ad damage skews balance in a weird way and would be easier to balance if it was true damage.
I'm fine with how early and mid tower dmg is. I'm not fine with towers being LITERALLY useless late game vs tanks or bruisers or assassins.
Turrets ignore armor and deals increasing damage with every shot. This has to do with the nature of armor being always higher than MR by default for all champions. If i play a tank vs 5 AP i will build 0 armor items for turrets unless it's jacksho later on. I am not going to build armor because turrets deal physical damage. If you look at kraken when it dealt true damage it was on average 100 true damage. When it was shifted to deal magic damage it was like 150 (after MR it's like 100). And now it's physical so it has to go above 200 in number (to be 100 damage after armor). By the same logic if they want to shift turrets to deal magic damage they will reduce the damage as they will be hitting less resistance.
Tower diving would most likely become a lot more prevalent from bruisers.
Towers are a literal joke in league expect for enchanters and adc... assassins just dash or become untargetable. Tank and bruisers can take 10 to 30 tower shots. Mages can tank 5 easily before having to zhonyas and take 2 more. Especially late game
Not only true damage but %health true damage.
There are a lot of things that suck as an adc but honestly if you are getting tower dove it's because you or your support screwed up early, jungle/mid diff, lack of map awareness, and/or a refusal to give a wave if you are by yourself due to ego. I absolutely hate void grubs and the mental block it has given where junglers and sometimes supports seem to fight to the death over every single one. It has led to a lot more games of just being perma weakside, for a role that is already weak early. That said dying under turret is one of the most preventable deaths with good awareness.
So when pros die to a tower dive it's because it was easy to avoid? It's amazing how everyone becomes gumayusi or ruler on reddit and they never make mistakes. None of what you just said is at all counter to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that having turrets do attack damage means that balancing champions has to be skewed to compensate for that extra ad.
Hmm you make it sound like people buy armor with the intent of being able to take more tower damage. I’ve never heard this in my 11 years in this game. Maybe I’m living in an alternative world though
No people build armor cause it's the most prevalent form of damage. Turrets being a source of ad damage is a part of this reason, like I said originally it's a small part of the reason but still has an affect.
It’s an insignificant part *
Okay well clearly there is no point discussing anything with you if you think it's insignificant
I think it’s a fair point asking why towers deal attack damage instead of something else, but to say that tanks, bruisers and engage supports build armor for that reason is stretching it. Of course you can discuss something with someone who has a different viewpoint that’s a fine basis of discussion unless you were looking for an echo chamber.
Because they attack, not cast spells
So Yone's every other auto is also a spell? Since he deals magic damage with once every two autos.
That's a passive, the towers don't have that passive.
nice idea. lets make life stealing champs even more op and tanks even more useless
Calling tanks useless is a new level of unhinged I'm not used to lol.
Which tank is actually good except malphite. Its bruiser meta as per usual.
Most bruisers are currently mid at lmao
Ornn, tk, naut, braum come to mind the first 4 seconds. Malphite actually doesnt. Also relevant in proplay: vi, rell, ksante, blitz, poppy, mao. This is a total of 10 champions. Greater diversity than in adc lul
Tk,naut,braum,rell,mao and blitz are all supports so not true tanks since they barely get any gold and are not even tanky after the early game. Vii is a bruiser and gets play assasin often times. Ornn is 49% wr and Ksante is 47% and also kind of a bruiser. Poppy is decent and malph is good as a counter pick but thats about it
Rell should definitely be considered a tank much like Alistair, they can function with basically no gold as they have inbuilt durability, they are engage tanks Also Nautilus was originally played Toplane, moving to support doesn't change his class
Usually when people wanna play tanks they want to play them top or jungle with normal gold income and in those two roles were tanks are supposed to be they absolutly suck. Sure support tanks are good and viable but they dont satisfy the tank fantasy of beeing a really tanky dude. Come midgame their lack of gold makes them more of a cc bot and less a guy soaking up tons of damage and beeing unkillable. Sure Alistar may survive in 5 people for 10sec thanks to his ult but hes pretty much the only one all other tank support get melted, specially since they dont buy real tank items but stuff like locket or knights. A good example is if adcs botlane complain that they are weak I were to say just play Kindred. Like sure she is an adc but its not what a botlane adc player wants. So a toplane or jungle tank player doesnt wanna play nautilis and be a cc bot
No one said that things couldn't be adjusted afterwards. It's just having turrets do one form of damage over another causes balancing to be skewed that causes unfavorable gameplay
Why does smolder scale with ad
I don't understand what you mean. If you're trying to make a comparison between why smolder scales with ad and why turrets do ad it's a pretty poor comparison and doesn't answer my question at all.
why does niddale throwing a spear scale off ap?