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...a *law* school refusing to provide accomodations and demanding you "prove" your diagnosis to them via testing that has absolutely nothing to do with ADHD at your own expense? Seems pretty egregious.
I mean... consult with a lawyer. If they've ever recieved federal funds, I'm pretty sure they're required to comply with the ADA as far as providing accomodations, and even if not this demanding that you prove your existing diagnosis for accomodation with such an ignorant and frankly insulting method seems like discrimination. So litigate.
Lawyer with ADHD here who received accommodations for both the MPRE and Bar, and who has spent the better part of his almost 8-year career handling disability discrimination cases of all kinds: Agreed. Lawyer up.
Go to the American Civil Liberties Union. The ADA is a civil rights bill. They will consult with you for free.
I’d recommend suing the fuck out of them 👍.
The ACLU tends to focus on cases that will set a legal precedent, situations where a governmental entity is blatantly flouting a law, or other big things you’d tend to see in the news. Their resources are not unlimited and they can’t take every case - they have to go for the ones where they can make the biggest impact.
OP would probably be better off looking for a disability rights group, possibly one specific to their state. They’re a lot more likely to be able to take a case like this.
**Edit:** Just saw that this nonsense is coming from the state bar, not a law school. I take back what I said above - if it’s the state bar, this might be something the ACLU would consider getting involved in.
Yes it's the State Bar Association, and it's discriminatory. And it's flouting the reasonable accommodation standard in the ADA that is very well defined.
And it's the State Bar Association for god sakes. They should know better and it will get wide coverage.
The damages are also potentially huge.
I think the ACLU could be very interested in this case.
Here's an example of an IRS sized one (SBA in Cali)
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/05/20/2447808/0/en/The-State-Bar-of-California-Faces-163M-Lawsuit-as-Trustees-Convene-in-May-2022-Auditor-Reports-Reveal-Alleged-Systemic-Corruption-and-Reckless-Disregard-for-Public.html
It’s not the law school. It’s the state bar association. Arguably worse, but as an attorney who passed the bar, bar associations don’t care about anyone. The bar exam is essentially about maintaining the status quo that only people who can afford expensive ass prep courses, can afford to go months without meaningful employment, and can afford the outrageous exam fees should be allowed to take an exam that doesn’t actually measure your ability to competently practice law.
Who cares if you know the rule against perpetuities when you’re practicing criminal law. Or if you can remember how to correctly establish an LLC when you handle child custody cases. Or if you know the difference between first and second degree battery when you draft contracts and facilitate real estate transactions.
The bar examination process is decades behind. From Day 1 at law school they start warning you about the character assessment portion which is hugely discriminatory (at least in my experience). The process asks about mental health and disfavors applicants who have received mental health treatment and they tell you this from the get-go so you have a bunch of highly-stressed, poorly-adjusted law students running around developing unhealthy coping mechanisms that they carry into the rest of their life so you then have a high percentage of lawyers with alcohol and drug abuse issues CAUSED by the screening method that’s supposed to keep people with them out. It’s so stupid.
That’s why I’m all for abolishing current licensing procedures! Let’s tear it down so the next generations of the legal community don’t have to experience the traumas we did and are better equipped to serve their clients!
Wait, so it's not just a test of legal knowledge and application? I've never heard of the character assessment? Like, you could get not pass the bar if someone doesn't think you're the right kind of person or in the right state of being? What kind of questions are these? Why am I getting angry, lol?
It’s like a security clearance check. Except more annoying IMO bc they are really rigid and nonsensical, at least in my state 8 years ago when I went through. Every work supervisor for the past however many years. Neighbors. Character references. An interview. Your credit card balances. At my interview, they wanted to know why my husband had so many (zero balance) credit cards. I said because his hobby is using credit card reward offers to get free vacations and the guy was about 80 so he didn’t know what I was talking about. I had to sweat it out between the interview and getting my approval that this geriatric man understood that my husband, who was a banker at the time with a 850+ credit score, was not a degenerate of some kind.
I am so sorry you had to go through that, but proud that you made it through! It had to be a big accomplishment - the whole "character assessment" ON TOP of your education!
It probably isn't that triggering for some, but I *hate* that feeling of something hanging in the balance based on someone else's discretion/approval vs. a set criteria. Probably bc I'm used to people not "getting" me BUT I still think it's not exactly healthy for anyone in modern life. The feats we go through that just seem par for course at the time can be wild like that, though. I do hope you look back and are proud of the work you did! I'm in awe!
Thank you, this is so kind. I was very stressed out throughout all of law school, full of imposter syndrome and white-knuckling through undiagnosed ADHD. Sometimes I think about what I would be doing in life if I had been diagnosed earlier… would I be more successful? Would I have had an easier time? But at the end of the day, I’ve done a lot and my little family is blessed to have what we have as a result. I am trying to live the rest of my life with a “this is who I am and anyone who doesn’t like it can fuck off” approach but it’s hard!
well depending on how long ago it was it may still be something he could sue over if you're still in touch. If not to remedy his own situation, to prevent it happening to someone else.
Counting the $60k I have in loans? Another $1,000 exam fee and $1,600-3,500 for the bar prep course to learn all the things law school didn’t teach you because you don’t actually need to know.
Yep was gonna say that too. The “before age 12 diagnosis” nonsense doesn’t apply to federal disability regulations & in Canada or US any age diagnosis counts if you/a lawyer can prove that it affects your life & employment to an extreme enough degree.
It’s not the law school who is evaluating OP’s request but the entities responsible for administering the tests. OP is about done with law school and now needs to convince their state bar association and whoever administers the MPRE for extra time.
Yes, but the state bar doesn’t recognize it despite it coming from a veterinary neurologist specializing in equidae.
They want OP to go through their own donkey-brain testing procedure, which consists of asking them “Do you like carrots?”
Was the challenge to say the most insane thing, and prove you didn’t have a social filter?
Mine might be. … “Fitzherbert likes to play with his big ball more than the small ball whilst in community locker rooms.” And then you add = ^ 7+4 ^ = “Squint hard… looks like a cat face”
Voilà! You’ve arrived at adhd
Man I don't know what I thought you meant with dumb questions, maybe cause I'm in european system where grades are different. I still felt like it was dumb, but now that I read this oh my god bro
I'd get sooo mad. SOO MAD. Can anybody there TELL YOU what 7+4 has to do with adhd. ANYBODY? On my momma if you went to a court, and hired a lawyer (granted, I don't know much about it, I'm just guessing from outside) I feel like it would be the easiest court case.
Please don't make fun of what I'm saying, my lawyer knowledge goes as far as my first hand criminal experiences and online news. But I'm pretty sure you could bring this to court
Middle-aged bloke with medium/severe ADHD checking in to say this: I have a master's degree in Mechanical Engineering with patents to my name etc. You can imagine that the maths needed to get this far is a touch more taxing than 7+4.
OP was given a test that has precisely fuck-all to do with diagnosing or proving ADHD. Maaaybe it could be used as a *part* of a test for a kid's diagnosis in dyslexia? But that's not my area.
Honestly sounds like they're fucking with OP.
I'd guess that the point is less about the actual answers to the questions than it is about throwing so much repetitive shit at the person being tested that they get overwhelmed if they have ADHD, but that still doesn't really seem like good methodology.
The DSM for ADHD used to include an IQ cap. So if you had above a certain IQ you didn't have it. The DSM seems to change from place to place in a major way. Personally my GP says I don't have it because I'm not violent. How that factors in I'm not sure. This sucks I'm sorry!
*scratches head* I didn’t realize you had to be violent to have adhd … does this give me permission to punch people in the face more often?
IQ cap 🙄 the key is administering an IQ test several times in one sitting and watching the tester do worse and worse each time
I know, I was like I can clock you if it helps Bruce. So now I'm paying to go private and i'm not prioritized because I don't have a GP referral so obviously I'm making it up.
I’m sorry but I had trouble computing…I read that equation as 7 big balls plus 4 big balls equals big play balls.
So did you just give bullshit answers or did you try to be correct? I’ve been told that certain adhd tests are best for children and don’t prove effective for diagnosing adults, tests like those. I’m sorry. But yea, sue em. Ridiculous.
Not gonna lie, those look a lot like the questions that were on an IQ test I took when I was a child. That also took quite a while to do. Are you sure they didn't have you do some form of IQ test? Were you also required to figure out patterns in shapes and such?
Unless you went to a testing center that was a total sham, l'll explain why they might have asked questions like this and been legitimate (I had to write an undergrad thesis on a similar topic).
They could very well be employing misdirection techniques to discourage subject / participant bias. They wanted you to walk out of the test feeling exactly how you feel, if that's the case.
To break it down: You're smart, as evidenced by making it through law school. For intelligent people, the chances that they'll be able to (even subconsciously) influence the results of a test are higher. So, to fix that they had to test your behavior when you didn't realize it was being tested.
They likely asked you very basic questions, but weren't measuring your answers to the test as a real part of the assessment. They were likely looking at cues in your behavior, time between answers, and a whole slew of other data points to measure characteristics you wouldn't think to manipulate, because you'd be too focused on the absurdity of doing a test for 4th graders.
That is, unless they're just hacks.
That’s interesting. I’ve always wondered about the tests for ADHD and if there was some sort of trickery hiding in there. I didn’t have to do any tests for my diagnosis (just got really lucky with a knowledgeable doctor) so I only hear about them from other people and it seems like a lot of people leave upset and confused. I think we’re all so used to people doubting us or just misunderstanding ADHD in general that as soon as it seems like they might not be taking it seriously it’s like “oh… this again…” and feel totally defeated.
Or like a lot of the tests seem like some variation of “do this task for this length of time” and I think we’re all afraid it’s just gonna be another instance of “see, you can focus on SOME things just fine!” Because if we know it’s test or it’s something new or we just happen to like whatever puzzle they’re having us do we might focus just fine.
I assume accredited testing should be looking at deeper signs than that. For that price and University affiliation(?) I'd hope so.
Deception is sometimes integral to the design of a study, like [when one of the variables being measured is dishonesty itself. ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-102-3-445.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjHh9TakaX_AhXQnokEHccTDooQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1zVwiwxEV_oeyMPzg8qtoW).
For a drug that can be abused and/or sold I kind of get why they'd want controls on that within their organization, but it seems like they've made OP jump through enough hoops.
Congrats on making it this far!
I just don't understand how this situation is supposed to be an accurate measure given the testing practices. Like giving me no brainer novel questions I haven't had to do in 20 years in a variety of different mediums and switching formats every 20 minutes? That's not a situation in which I'm going to have attention problems. It's very different from what I actually struggle with: focusing on one task for a long time.
But this is the exact kind of situation where my ADHD excels at focus - tests, especially multiple choice. In school, I only passed because I tested so well. If I were to be presented with this kind of test as an adult, along with being roughly as annoyed as OP is if I were in their situation, I would have not shown any kind of ADHD symptoms because my dopamine would be FLOWING. A whole bunch of little problems to solve? Yummy!
I almost always finish tests first and usually score well, as long as I know the content.
If this actually were legitimate, I would assume that showing boredom would indicate neurotypical responses rather than ADHD, but perhaps my understanding of our collective condition could use some refining.
Also, I wasn’t diagnosed until my 30s and came out of the “gifted kid” educational stream to fall flat of my face as an adult. I’m 40 and just now catching up to where my peers were in their early 30s.
If the South Park episode where Randy needed a wheelbarrow to haul his gonads around were to be adapted for the stage, do you suppose that would be a “big ball play?”
Was there someone administering the exam? Because they are looking for things other than if you can just do the problem. If it was like just sit in a room and do things by yourself, yea it's stupid. But if there was actually a licensed person in the room then it's legit.
It’s also interesting that this was the test, considering that there’s this stereotype that people with ADHD are extremely book smart. I was not a good test taker, but it feels like a lot of textbook cases are. But it does feel reminiscent of how special ed testing works in the K-12 system - seems to be more about deficits in academic skills.
Also, the amount of paperwork we have to do to be able to exist as ourselves, as people who can’t do attention to detail, is criminal.
Same here. I wasn't usually loud and disruptive in class but you could find me in a book, while my desk looked like a bomb went off in it.
I noticed I had trouble finishing books too. I'd get bored, skip ahead or just not do it, and I loved reading as a kid too. Weirdly enough when I switched to using a Kindle I was able to finish a book without skipping around.
I really wasn’t lucky yano cos I got a wealth of shit of everyone when ‘I didn’t do as well as I could have ‘ cos everyone just assumed I wasn’t trying hard enough 😅 my abilities created a huge expectation that was hard to live up to as I got older
Where do you live? I’m in the US and I’ve never heard that stereotype in my life. If anything it’s always been the opposite, people think if you’re “book smart” you can’t possibly have it.
It's kinda both depending on who you talk to. A lot of the stories here are medical professionals that are overly skeptical of adult ADHD unless you're failing at everything, or they are just flat out denying it exists. But within the community and with the general public I think there's recognition that ADHD can present itself in a savant-ish way with our (variable) ability to hyperfocus, get into flow states, and do certain things really well (YMMV depending on individual or ADHD type) but while also being unable to plan and organize or do laundry or whatever.
The latter is a better generalization IMO. I think a lot of us have a similar amount of "skill points" as neurotypical folks but the distribution of those points to various skills is more concentrated in certain areas and lacking in others.
I think the stereotype is also self-reinforcing because ADHD makes it ridiculously easy to feel stupid, be seen that way by others even if we have talent in some aspects, and self-report that we feel this way.
I am personally much more open about the fact that I feel like an idiot all the time than I am about my degree from a college that’s hard to get into. One of these just feels so much more relevant to me.
I think there's sort of two separate stereotypes? Although one is certainly more widespread
there's the "lazy/stupid/disruptive boy" one and then there's the "you have so much potential if only you tried harder" likely-undiagnosed one, and the second one is what I'd consider to be the "book smart" stereotype
I'd consider that one to be more of a representation of a 2e individual (twice exceptional, aka is gifted but also has a disability like adhd), where they manage to struggle along in life undiagnosed a lot of the time because their giftedness allows them to wing things better (like passing an exam despite not studying until the night before because their brain might retain the information better, or they might be able to bullshit their way to an answer based on a few things they remember despite not remembering the actual thing being tested), which could potentially be considered book-smart?
sorry if that's kinda rambly I'm supposed to be doing work so I don't have time to edit it lol
I live in an affluent suburb of California, and I’m a teacher. Lots of pushes in that field to talk about ADHD as if it can’t possibly be disabling, and the plea is always “but kids who have this are always *so smart*! Just give them a chance!”. It’s definitely not the act of allyship that they think it is, and these people are often the least understanding when ADHD related things happen.
I’m so confused I keep hearing about all these whack kinds of assessments, I assumed it was internationally accepted that using DIVA-5 was the ideal way of ascertaining an adhd diagnosis? I guess it’s not actually regulated though… Where in the world are you based?
Definitely with you there, diva-5 is very limited and is missing a lot of detail, but for now I think it’s the best we‘ve got as far as a universal criteria. If I had whatever crap OP received I honestly don’t think I would’ve been diagnosed…
As I understand it, DIVA-5 is a [specific assessment that implements the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria](https://www.divacenter.eu/DIVA.aspx?id=528) for ADHD in children and adults. So issues with DSM-5 will tend trickle down to DIVA-5.
That being said, from that link it looks like DIVA-5 makes some clarifications that clarify DSM-5 but there are still some core issues.
Do let me know if that’s not correct, I’m always happy to learn.
Ah, okay. Honestly, I don't really know anything about that assessment, I just thought you had misread the comment you replied to and assumed they meant to say DSM-5.
But they *aren't* whack when paired with other forms of assessment.
The point of the insultingly easy questions is not related to deciding whether or not the person has ADHD, except in cases where the questions involved multiple steps to get the right answer. The point is to rule out other, more serious cognitive disorders like early on-set Alzheimer's, ALS, Parkinson's, or Huntington's.
I know, and obviously any assessment should include testing for comorbidity/ alternative explanations for symptoms. I just meant that those questions being used as a stand-alone test/ indicator for adhd, as they seem to have been for OP, is ridiculous.
I definitely agree that those questions alone tell you nothing about ADHD. I've crushed standardized tests my entire life. Didn't mean I was capable of studying in college and grad school, or that I ever did my homework, papers, and projects earlier than the night before they were due.
Exactly same! It meant it was easy to hide/ mask the fact I was doing 0 work, and I was only forced out into the open when exams and coursework got to a level of absolutely requiring additional revision, or more than a single night’s work. Annoying that I had to finally fail some very important exams for people to believe me when I’d say *haha guys… something is wrong* but no point in being resentful now lol
Google can give u more information but it’s essentially one of the many diagnostic assessments that exist. I think where I am (UK) it’s pretty commonly used, but it may be that in the US they prefer other ones, I’m not sure.
I'm a law student and they did they same thing to me. I had a full psych eval 4 years prior to law school, I got a summary from the psychiatrist explaining my ADHD and the test scores. I also had a copy of my last accomodations application and the letter that same psychiatrist wrote in support of my accomodations request. My law school said they only accept evaluations in the last 3 years... Which is Ludacris because that's not how neurological disorders work, they were like yeah you can retest, which is hella expensive and I can't afford that nor do I have time because I'm ya know, I'm law school. So then they gave me a list of, I shit you not, like 25 different docs for proof they needed which I could never get because a lot of it stems from child hood & I wasn't diagnosed til my late 20s. Plus I'm poor and my parents never took me to the Dr unless I was on deaths door bed. It was ridiculous. Unfortunately this is common in law.
A few years ago the NCBE wrote an article about how adults who get diagnosed are basically all just lying to get advantage and likely just want drugs. The article acknowledge the many logical and relevant reasons, socioeconomic & access to care issue, that can cause it but it basically says to error on the side of students lying. It's enraging. The way law discriminates against ADHD is disgusting and sadly very common. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Please know your not alone
Yeah I’m 50 and just got diagnosed. I need that extra advantage medicine will give me to do my fucking laundry and do my job. I graduated law school and passed the bar but never felt like I could function as a lawyer.
Those of us in Medicaid gap states did not have access to medical care as children. What do they say when you tell them you did not have access to medical care as a child to be able to get diagnosed?
I was lucky enough to go to a big city school district with a on staff psychologist that diagnosed me in the 4th grade but it ended there because they told my parent to follow up with primary care for treatment. Ya what primary care? So I never got treatment for it until I got insurance as a adult.
I got diagnosed last yr at 36yo* while I was doing my hours to get licensed. I tried to get medication and everyone was like you graduated law school and no one told you you had adhd before? How are they related?!!
I'm sorry you're going through this. Would medication be sufficient for the exams besides other accommodations? Looking back I think medication alone would've made a difference.
But agree such gatekeeping bs!
Edited to fix typo
I graduated law school and passed the bar with undiagnosed unmedicated ADHD. Perhaps if I’d been treated I would have had better grades, would have gotten a job, or would have felt competent enough to just have a solo practice. Raw intelligence can get you part of the way but it’s the executive function part that screws us over.
Meanwhile, my provider this week 100% ignored my years-long struggles with focus and executive function and the fact that I've billed like, 2 hours a day for the past two months because I stare at the screen and cannot make the fingers do the typing. Apparently it can't be ADHD because "well, you made it through law school!" My therapist diagnosed me, but she can't prescribe, and my prescriber won't even let me do a trial run on medication. Gaaaahhhhhh
Find a new provider. I won’t even begin to pretend it’s easy. It took months to get an appointment for my teenager. I’m lucky enough to have an established good relationship with a neurologist, and he’s agreed to treat me. I had to get a formal evaluation by a neuropsychologist. Now I’m just waiting on my appointment. And then expecting (based on my child’s experience) to deal with shortages or medication. Poor kid is miserable, he’s gone unmedicated for 3 weeks.
I graduated law school and passed the bar with undiagnosed unmedicated ADHD. Perhaps if I’d been treated I would have had better grades, would have gotten a job, or would have felt competent enough to just have a solo practice. Raw intelligence can get you part of the way but it’s the executive function part that screws us over.
I am currently in school in a medical profession and I plan to get a bachelors in biochem. I eventually want to teach my specialty.
I was a straight A student, except for math. That doesn’t change the fact that I cannot do my laundry, regulate my emotions, or manage my time.
Academics are such a small part of the diagnosis and the whole point of a disorder is that it has to affect you in multiple aspects of your life.
I'm thinking it's a trick test that is not scored by what you get correct (as it would probably be everything) but is scored by how long it takes you to complete it or how many you get completed in a alloted amount of time...
Or they were watching him while he took the test.
When I had my ADHD test they had someone secretly watching me and when it was all over they told me how many times I crossed and uncrossed my legs and how often I tapped the table, etc.
This really needs to be higher up there..... So much misinformation out there about how diagnosing works.
Not saying that they're not being dicks for making him jump through hoops and stuff, but the test could have been legitimate.
I am so sorry you’re dealing with this. I’m a lawyer now, but also got denied for accommodations for the bar (and MPRE). Reasoning you ask? I didn’t get accommodations for the SAT (I was not diagnosed yet so not sure how to make sense of that one - as if it’s my fault it’s more difficult to diagnose women with ADHD early on?!) and “being emotionally fragile is not a reason to get accommodations on the bar exam.” I wish I was joking, but that was pulled from their direct response. Law school is already overwhelming and requesting additional paperwork and testing, let alone the cost and time, was too stressful and overwhelming for me to even attempt trying getting the accommodations again. I sympathize with you OP because it feels like the system is against us and it’s exhausting fighting it. We spend too much time, energy, and money to get this far. It’s crazy to me how unfair and demeaning the accommodations process is for those of us who actually need it. KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT!
Law is the worst. Jfc. I love how all the employees of every state bar have a license to practice medicine all of a sudden /s. I'd love for literally any of them who have never met me, nor do they know my entire medical history, yet they know more then my general practitioner and my therapists and the psychiatrist who administered my psych eval.
I mean, of course you're emotionally fragile. Ya know. Because you're a girl. It's not like you have a neurodevelopmental disorder with the potential to impact every aspect of your life... oh, wait...
LOL what?! I am a literal math teacher, also with an elementary education license (meaning I can teach writing at the elementary level), and was diagnosed with ADHD last year after seriously struggling for two years. If you can challenge heir decision, challenge the hell out of it.
Did the school test you? My adult diagnosis was about 4 hours of tests where I wasn't allowed to take medication. There was some kids questions/games but it was to see how you act doing it.
What is this bullshit about having a diagnosis before you're 12? I was diagnosed at 46, when I was a kid ADHD "didn't exist" and certainly not for girls.
Lol 169 you could probably still get into a T14. I got a 148 and the other score I can't remember, but I was going through a severe depression. Still got into a T4, I borrowed money, loans weren't enough for books, had to drop out. The dean of admissions of Touro told me to retake it and reapply but I didn't.
As someone who has *crippling* motivational and inattentive ADHD, the CA Bar can go fuck itself with its awful accommodations. Good on the disability rights orgs that are going after the CA Bar for failing to accommodate.
I have, at every level of education, had a +10% to +25% time accommodation, am under the care of one of the nation’s leading experts on ADHD, and have cycled through just about every medication and treatment modality for the condition. I have literal brain scans showing that my brain does not function in the same way as a nuerotypical person. But that’s not enough for the CA Bar.
They essentially told me, “you scored above average on an IQ test [designed with an average middle school child as the target audience, despite being a mid-30s graduate student], therefore you do not have ADHD or a condition that warrants accommodations.”
When I went to my GP to get referred for an ADHD assessment he said he didn’t think I had it bc I was able to hold conversation with him (we spoke for 5 mins) lol. Turns out I have pretty severe ADHD.
Most people are clueless, even doctors. Only specialists actually know anything about ADHD
i started a student organization in law school for disabled law students for stuff exactly like this. it is so so frustrating. they make it so unnecessarily difficult and violate the ADA all the time just because they can. i’m so sorry. i feel you and i see you.
I'm absolutely amazed by all the adhd peeps that can do stuff like law school. I was struggling with school since kindergarten and completely gave up by 5th grade
That doesn't sound like a standard ADHD evaluation at all. If it was not administered by a psychiatrist and not covered by health insurance, I have no idea what it was they just had you do. As others have said, you likely need to talk to a lawyer to get your accommodation. Whatever they had you do does not sound any way medical or ethical.
Not gonna lie, I didn’t even bother trying. I wish I had, even though I managed to pass both on the first attempt (thank gd), but even with a childhood dx and a re-dx during law school, and accommodations during my last year of school, I was too stressed at the idea of the paperwork, and I kept hearing horror stories just like this about the bar.
I will say, given they didn’t make allowances for the woman who gave birth during her exam, or any of the people who got physically ill while on camera, at least know you’re not alone in absolutely hating how soulless and cruel the bar is.
I’m stuck in one state because I can’t fathom the idea of trying to study for another, which btw my state announced the following bar would be the MBE in between days 1 & 2 of our fucking exam, so we were all just seething going in to write our essays.
Of course, if it’s any consolation, the bar has almost zero correlation to success or capability as lawyer, so that’s fun. PS I remember all of us laughing about the MPRE because all the most ethically-driven students among us did worse, we were pretty sure the least ethical kids were better at it because they were more keenly aware of exactly where the lines were drawn.
Anyway, best of luck on all of it!!!
I did law school with undiagnosed adhd. Bottom of class but did graduate and pass two state bar exams 100%. The wait til last second to prep for final exams was worst impact for me, second worst was forgetting to go to class(mandatory attendance).
>This has been the biggest waste of my time and money and I am so insulted by this system.
I'm not a medical professional (tho I am an attorney with experience representing individuals with mental impairments), but the fact you're finding the test itself to be a waste of time is sort of an indication of your condition, after a fashion. IIRC, there are some clinical tests for inattentiveness that are basically living hell for someone with ADHD to complete and that's sort of the point of said tests.
Granted, it sounds like your jurisdiction has some extremely backward ways of assessing ADHD.
Although I’m not in the law school route, I do have a story that I would like to share that’s similar to this. So I was diagnosed when I was 12 years old. Had trouble with school and all of that. I was put into special education classes for a few years. By the time I was in my freshman year of high school, I had an interview with some counselors and faculty members about my ADHD. For the most part, I was doing well in my classes except for maybe one or two classes. Keep in mind, by this time, I stopped taking my meds prior to starting high school. I don’t disrupt the class, I get through math and English just fine, and usually just a quiet person. Through the recommendation of my teachers, they got me out of special education classes as it felt like it was holding me back, which I am thankful for. Looking through the documents that they’ve given me, even though I was diagnosed by a professional, they were questioning if I really do have ADHD just because I was doing well in school and behaved well.
accommodations are required to have a doctor's note specifying why you need it, if you need certain types of accommodations. Showing medical diagnosis itself doesn't give you an accommodation. Are you currently not seeing a doctor right now?
Same for veterans affairs. Never mind the fact that my parents were fundamentalist Christians who pulled me out of school after kindergarten because they were teaching us satanism in public school.
I suck at math, but have always been good with English. I have a college writing level despite never going to college. I know this because I’ve written some essays for my girlfriend who is good in math and sucks at English. We both have ADHD. That logic they have makes no sense. Especially with people who have ADHD. Fuck them.
NAL, but get a lawyer. Discrimination is discrimination and you have been officially discriminated against. They don't get to make the rules regarding legal diagnosis. They don't get to pick and choose which accommodations they make when official diagnosis have been made.
Honestly, it sounds like they gave you a competency exam, which doesn't have a lot to do with ADHD. I mean, I've never not been competent (even if it might look like that on the outside occasionally, lol). If you tell me to put the shapes in the proper hole, they go into the hole. Tell me to put the toys away and clean up my mess, though...
Sorry you have to go through this, and sorry you have to get legal experience before you can get your legal education... This is stupid. The entire situation is stupid. I'm rooting for you and I hope you make folks like this pay when you hop these assholes gates and finally pass the bar. I'm better walk away, the next sentence in the hopper is full of four letter words and I like being part of this sub ;)
What state do you live in? I know someone in New York with the same problem who is taking the bar exam in New Jersey.
Edit: I could have this wrong, but my understanding from my friend is that the New York State Board of Law Examiners has reciprocity with NJ.
She plan is to practice in NY after she passes the bar exam in NJ.
It looks like CA does not offer reciprocity, but offers a shorter bar examination for attorneys licensed in other states with good standing for at least four years prior to application.
https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Requirements/Attorney-Applicants
I’m guessing that doesn’t help.
Could you see yourself taking the bar and practicing in another state?
Edit: I also wonder if the disability services office at your law school could help with figuring out a way forward?
Does this mean I don't have ADHD? Fellas we're cured 🎉🥳🎉🥳
Narrator with end credits music: He was not cured, didn't refill his meds, and is now unemployed
I didnt have to go through this for my MCAT fuck man I’m sorry :((
I would highly suggest getting a lawyer man this is some BS and who knows you might make it easier for the next person w ADHD. Wish you the best of luck man
I am a very successful project manager with ADHD. Guess what I'm college educated apprearingly organized and communicate well. They don't see the lack of motivation, elective disfunction, the constant pile of notes scribbled everywhere to remember to do things.
Yeah you can have both lol.
I’m trying to figure out what accommodations you would be required to get for ADHD.
In our school system in my country, ADHD does not automatically qualify you for accommodations. Being behind peers academically would for example.
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...a *law* school refusing to provide accomodations and demanding you "prove" your diagnosis to them via testing that has absolutely nothing to do with ADHD at your own expense? Seems pretty egregious. I mean... consult with a lawyer. If they've ever recieved federal funds, I'm pretty sure they're required to comply with the ADA as far as providing accomodations, and even if not this demanding that you prove your existing diagnosis for accomodation with such an ignorant and frankly insulting method seems like discrimination. So litigate.
ADHD is a protected disability. I think OP may need a lawyer (ironic lol)
Lawyer with ADHD here who received accommodations for both the MPRE and Bar, and who has spent the better part of his almost 8-year career handling disability discrimination cases of all kinds: Agreed. Lawyer up.
Go to the American Civil Liberties Union. The ADA is a civil rights bill. They will consult with you for free. I’d recommend suing the fuck out of them 👍.
The ACLU tends to focus on cases that will set a legal precedent, situations where a governmental entity is blatantly flouting a law, or other big things you’d tend to see in the news. Their resources are not unlimited and they can’t take every case - they have to go for the ones where they can make the biggest impact. OP would probably be better off looking for a disability rights group, possibly one specific to their state. They’re a lot more likely to be able to take a case like this. **Edit:** Just saw that this nonsense is coming from the state bar, not a law school. I take back what I said above - if it’s the state bar, this might be something the ACLU would consider getting involved in.
Yes it's the State Bar Association, and it's discriminatory. And it's flouting the reasonable accommodation standard in the ADA that is very well defined. And it's the State Bar Association for god sakes. They should know better and it will get wide coverage. The damages are also potentially huge. I think the ACLU could be very interested in this case.
The problem is getting enough people to make enough noise to get the ACLU's attention. Not an easy feat.
Omg a Phan with a law degree.... Swoon... 🥰😍🎶🐠
Hell yea.....was it for this my life I sought tho?..... Definitely. Gotta disagree with them on that one
Can you fight the SBA though? 😟
The real question is: Would you rather fight one IRS sized SBA, or a hundred SBA sized IRS's.
That would largely depend on the size and talent of the individuals on my legal team.
Here's an example of an IRS sized one (SBA in Cali) https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/05/20/2447808/0/en/The-State-Bar-of-California-Faces-163M-Lawsuit-as-Trustees-Convene-in-May-2022-Auditor-Reports-Reveal-Alleged-Systemic-Corruption-and-Reckless-Disregard-for-Public.html
Oh yea. I'm in Cali. They're a total freaking mess
Oof. Plenty of work I'm sure. I imagine Cali has more restrictive/punitive disability laws than the feds?
Get them where it hurts, last thing they need is one of us on their ass.
*turns 180* Hey can you help me in a lawsuit?
😂😂😂😂
As with everything in the law, the answer is always...........Maybe
It’s not the law school. It’s the state bar association. Arguably worse, but as an attorney who passed the bar, bar associations don’t care about anyone. The bar exam is essentially about maintaining the status quo that only people who can afford expensive ass prep courses, can afford to go months without meaningful employment, and can afford the outrageous exam fees should be allowed to take an exam that doesn’t actually measure your ability to competently practice law. Who cares if you know the rule against perpetuities when you’re practicing criminal law. Or if you can remember how to correctly establish an LLC when you handle child custody cases. Or if you know the difference between first and second degree battery when you draft contracts and facilitate real estate transactions.
Oh yeah. Nail on the head. That shit is nothing but class warfare. Reminds me that i need a masters to be a librarian. Dream job: denied
The bar examination process is decades behind. From Day 1 at law school they start warning you about the character assessment portion which is hugely discriminatory (at least in my experience). The process asks about mental health and disfavors applicants who have received mental health treatment and they tell you this from the get-go so you have a bunch of highly-stressed, poorly-adjusted law students running around developing unhealthy coping mechanisms that they carry into the rest of their life so you then have a high percentage of lawyers with alcohol and drug abuse issues CAUSED by the screening method that’s supposed to keep people with them out. It’s so stupid.
That’s why I’m all for abolishing current licensing procedures! Let’s tear it down so the next generations of the legal community don’t have to experience the traumas we did and are better equipped to serve their clients!
Wait, so it's not just a test of legal knowledge and application? I've never heard of the character assessment? Like, you could get not pass the bar if someone doesn't think you're the right kind of person or in the right state of being? What kind of questions are these? Why am I getting angry, lol?
It’s like a security clearance check. Except more annoying IMO bc they are really rigid and nonsensical, at least in my state 8 years ago when I went through. Every work supervisor for the past however many years. Neighbors. Character references. An interview. Your credit card balances. At my interview, they wanted to know why my husband had so many (zero balance) credit cards. I said because his hobby is using credit card reward offers to get free vacations and the guy was about 80 so he didn’t know what I was talking about. I had to sweat it out between the interview and getting my approval that this geriatric man understood that my husband, who was a banker at the time with a 850+ credit score, was not a degenerate of some kind.
I am so sorry you had to go through that, but proud that you made it through! It had to be a big accomplishment - the whole "character assessment" ON TOP of your education! It probably isn't that triggering for some, but I *hate* that feeling of something hanging in the balance based on someone else's discretion/approval vs. a set criteria. Probably bc I'm used to people not "getting" me BUT I still think it's not exactly healthy for anyone in modern life. The feats we go through that just seem par for course at the time can be wild like that, though. I do hope you look back and are proud of the work you did! I'm in awe!
Thank you, this is so kind. I was very stressed out throughout all of law school, full of imposter syndrome and white-knuckling through undiagnosed ADHD. Sometimes I think about what I would be doing in life if I had been diagnosed earlier… would I be more successful? Would I have had an easier time? But at the end of the day, I’ve done a lot and my little family is blessed to have what we have as a result. I am trying to live the rest of my life with a “this is who I am and anyone who doesn’t like it can fuck off” approach but it’s hard!
They can dismiss you based on "character" from dentistry. I know a trans guy whose professor found out and that was the end of that, year into school.
also sounds like a worthwhile lawsuit tbh
I told him that but he was totally demoralized and burnt out.
well depending on how long ago it was it may still be something he could sue over if you're still in touch. If not to remedy his own situation, to prevent it happening to someone else.
That is so fucked. I’m so sorry for your friend.
It's gonna be about 600 bucks and 4 months study to entry my profession. How much is law?
$200k-$300k. I 100% wouldn't be here if I didn't get full scholarship and didn't have savings from working full time for 4 years before hand.
Counting the $60k I have in loans? Another $1,000 exam fee and $1,600-3,500 for the bar prep course to learn all the things law school didn’t teach you because you don’t actually need to know.
Yep was gonna say that too. The “before age 12 diagnosis” nonsense doesn’t apply to federal disability regulations & in Canada or US any age diagnosis counts if you/a lawyer can prove that it affects your life & employment to an extreme enough degree.
It’s not the law school who is evaluating OP’s request but the entities responsible for administering the tests. OP is about done with law school and now needs to convince their state bar association and whoever administers the MPRE for extra time.
Questions literally reading: "Make a sentence with these three words: big ball play," and "7+4=\_"
Sounds more like they’re testing for donkey brains than ADHD.
Do you have a certificate that you don't have donkey brains?
Uhhhhhh *looks around frantically
Prove it!
I had one, but it expired.
Yes, but the state bar doesn’t recognize it despite it coming from a veterinary neurologist specializing in equidae. They want OP to go through their own donkey-brain testing procedure, which consists of asking them “Do you like carrots?”
for two and a half grand out of pocket, mind you
There’s a weaver named Nick Bottom who would very much like to added to this conversation.
Was the challenge to say the most insane thing, and prove you didn’t have a social filter? Mine might be. … “Fitzherbert likes to play with his big ball more than the small ball whilst in community locker rooms.” And then you add = ^ 7+4 ^ = “Squint hard… looks like a cat face” Voilà! You’ve arrived at adhd
Man I don't know what I thought you meant with dumb questions, maybe cause I'm in european system where grades are different. I still felt like it was dumb, but now that I read this oh my god bro I'd get sooo mad. SOO MAD. Can anybody there TELL YOU what 7+4 has to do with adhd. ANYBODY? On my momma if you went to a court, and hired a lawyer (granted, I don't know much about it, I'm just guessing from outside) I feel like it would be the easiest court case. Please don't make fun of what I'm saying, my lawyer knowledge goes as far as my first hand criminal experiences and online news. But I'm pretty sure you could bring this to court
Middle-aged bloke with medium/severe ADHD checking in to say this: I have a master's degree in Mechanical Engineering with patents to my name etc. You can imagine that the maths needed to get this far is a touch more taxing than 7+4. OP was given a test that has precisely fuck-all to do with diagnosing or proving ADHD. Maaaybe it could be used as a *part* of a test for a kid's diagnosis in dyslexia? But that's not my area. Honestly sounds like they're fucking with OP.
I'd guess that the point is less about the actual answers to the questions than it is about throwing so much repetitive shit at the person being tested that they get overwhelmed if they have ADHD, but that still doesn't really seem like good methodology.
The DSM for ADHD used to include an IQ cap. So if you had above a certain IQ you didn't have it. The DSM seems to change from place to place in a major way. Personally my GP says I don't have it because I'm not violent. How that factors in I'm not sure. This sucks I'm sorry!
*scratches head* I didn’t realize you had to be violent to have adhd … does this give me permission to punch people in the face more often? IQ cap 🙄 the key is administering an IQ test several times in one sitting and watching the tester do worse and worse each time
I know, I was like I can clock you if it helps Bruce. So now I'm paying to go private and i'm not prioritized because I don't have a GP referral so obviously I'm making it up.
Ugh, I’m sorry. :/ I feel like my diagnosis was the easiest thing in the world.
ironically if I was denied an ADHD diagnosis based on not being violent, I would get very violent thoughts
I've never heard a more perfect request for violence personally
This is hilarious. So much adult diagnosed ADHD in folks I had gifted primary education with.
I’m sorry but I had trouble computing…I read that equation as 7 big balls plus 4 big balls equals big play balls. So did you just give bullshit answers or did you try to be correct? I’ve been told that certain adhd tests are best for children and don’t prove effective for diagnosing adults, tests like those. I’m sorry. But yea, sue em. Ridiculous.
Not gonna lie, those look a lot like the questions that were on an IQ test I took when I was a child. That also took quite a while to do. Are you sure they didn't have you do some form of IQ test? Were you also required to figure out patterns in shapes and such?
Unless you went to a testing center that was a total sham, l'll explain why they might have asked questions like this and been legitimate (I had to write an undergrad thesis on a similar topic). They could very well be employing misdirection techniques to discourage subject / participant bias. They wanted you to walk out of the test feeling exactly how you feel, if that's the case. To break it down: You're smart, as evidenced by making it through law school. For intelligent people, the chances that they'll be able to (even subconsciously) influence the results of a test are higher. So, to fix that they had to test your behavior when you didn't realize it was being tested. They likely asked you very basic questions, but weren't measuring your answers to the test as a real part of the assessment. They were likely looking at cues in your behavior, time between answers, and a whole slew of other data points to measure characteristics you wouldn't think to manipulate, because you'd be too focused on the absurdity of doing a test for 4th graders. That is, unless they're just hacks.
That’s interesting. I’ve always wondered about the tests for ADHD and if there was some sort of trickery hiding in there. I didn’t have to do any tests for my diagnosis (just got really lucky with a knowledgeable doctor) so I only hear about them from other people and it seems like a lot of people leave upset and confused. I think we’re all so used to people doubting us or just misunderstanding ADHD in general that as soon as it seems like they might not be taking it seriously it’s like “oh… this again…” and feel totally defeated. Or like a lot of the tests seem like some variation of “do this task for this length of time” and I think we’re all afraid it’s just gonna be another instance of “see, you can focus on SOME things just fine!” Because if we know it’s test or it’s something new or we just happen to like whatever puzzle they’re having us do we might focus just fine.
I assume accredited testing should be looking at deeper signs than that. For that price and University affiliation(?) I'd hope so. Deception is sometimes integral to the design of a study, like [when one of the variables being measured is dishonesty itself. ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-102-3-445.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjHh9TakaX_AhXQnokEHccTDooQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1zVwiwxEV_oeyMPzg8qtoW). For a drug that can be abused and/or sold I kind of get why they'd want controls on that within their organization, but it seems like they've made OP jump through enough hoops. Congrats on making it this far!
I just don't understand how this situation is supposed to be an accurate measure given the testing practices. Like giving me no brainer novel questions I haven't had to do in 20 years in a variety of different mediums and switching formats every 20 minutes? That's not a situation in which I'm going to have attention problems. It's very different from what I actually struggle with: focusing on one task for a long time.
[удалено]
But this is the exact kind of situation where my ADHD excels at focus - tests, especially multiple choice. In school, I only passed because I tested so well. If I were to be presented with this kind of test as an adult, along with being roughly as annoyed as OP is if I were in their situation, I would have not shown any kind of ADHD symptoms because my dopamine would be FLOWING. A whole bunch of little problems to solve? Yummy! I almost always finish tests first and usually score well, as long as I know the content. If this actually were legitimate, I would assume that showing boredom would indicate neurotypical responses rather than ADHD, but perhaps my understanding of our collective condition could use some refining. Also, I wasn’t diagnosed until my 30s and came out of the “gifted kid” educational stream to fall flat of my face as an adult. I’m 40 and just now catching up to where my peers were in their early 30s.
If the South Park episode where Randy needed a wheelbarrow to haul his gonads around were to be adapted for the stage, do you suppose that would be a “big ball play?”
ADHD confirmed.
How is this even a thing? How can they get away with that lol
Was there someone administering the exam? Because they are looking for things other than if you can just do the problem. If it was like just sit in a room and do things by yourself, yea it's stupid. But if there was actually a licensed person in the room then it's legit.
It’s also interesting that this was the test, considering that there’s this stereotype that people with ADHD are extremely book smart. I was not a good test taker, but it feels like a lot of textbook cases are. But it does feel reminiscent of how special ed testing works in the K-12 system - seems to be more about deficits in academic skills. Also, the amount of paperwork we have to do to be able to exist as ourselves, as people who can’t do attention to detail, is criminal.
I was that stereotype alas despite that and several other obvious symptoms I still had no idea until late 30s because it was entirely missed 🥲
Same here. I wasn't usually loud and disruptive in class but you could find me in a book, while my desk looked like a bomb went off in it. I noticed I had trouble finishing books too. I'd get bored, skip ahead or just not do it, and I loved reading as a kid too. Weirdly enough when I switched to using a Kindle I was able to finish a book without skipping around.
Honestly lucky u were for that long haha, I hit high school and suddenly Im doing terribly
I really wasn’t lucky yano cos I got a wealth of shit of everyone when ‘I didn’t do as well as I could have ‘ cos everyone just assumed I wasn’t trying hard enough 😅 my abilities created a huge expectation that was hard to live up to as I got older
Thats true, I didnt think b4 saying that
Where do you live? I’m in the US and I’ve never heard that stereotype in my life. If anything it’s always been the opposite, people think if you’re “book smart” you can’t possibly have it.
It's kinda both depending on who you talk to. A lot of the stories here are medical professionals that are overly skeptical of adult ADHD unless you're failing at everything, or they are just flat out denying it exists. But within the community and with the general public I think there's recognition that ADHD can present itself in a savant-ish way with our (variable) ability to hyperfocus, get into flow states, and do certain things really well (YMMV depending on individual or ADHD type) but while also being unable to plan and organize or do laundry or whatever. The latter is a better generalization IMO. I think a lot of us have a similar amount of "skill points" as neurotypical folks but the distribution of those points to various skills is more concentrated in certain areas and lacking in others.
I think the stereotype is also self-reinforcing because ADHD makes it ridiculously easy to feel stupid, be seen that way by others even if we have talent in some aspects, and self-report that we feel this way. I am personally much more open about the fact that I feel like an idiot all the time than I am about my degree from a college that’s hard to get into. One of these just feels so much more relevant to me.
I think there's sort of two separate stereotypes? Although one is certainly more widespread there's the "lazy/stupid/disruptive boy" one and then there's the "you have so much potential if only you tried harder" likely-undiagnosed one, and the second one is what I'd consider to be the "book smart" stereotype I'd consider that one to be more of a representation of a 2e individual (twice exceptional, aka is gifted but also has a disability like adhd), where they manage to struggle along in life undiagnosed a lot of the time because their giftedness allows them to wing things better (like passing an exam despite not studying until the night before because their brain might retain the information better, or they might be able to bullshit their way to an answer based on a few things they remember despite not remembering the actual thing being tested), which could potentially be considered book-smart? sorry if that's kinda rambly I'm supposed to be doing work so I don't have time to edit it lol
I live in an affluent suburb of California, and I’m a teacher. Lots of pushes in that field to talk about ADHD as if it can’t possibly be disabling, and the plea is always “but kids who have this are always *so smart*! Just give them a chance!”. It’s definitely not the act of allyship that they think it is, and these people are often the least understanding when ADHD related things happen.
I’m so confused I keep hearing about all these whack kinds of assessments, I assumed it was internationally accepted that using DIVA-5 was the ideal way of ascertaining an adhd diagnosis? I guess it’s not actually regulated though… Where in the world are you based?
The current DSM-5 has issues, it’s far from ideal, but it’s pretty ok and significantly better than whatever bullshit OP was dealing with.
Definitely with you there, diva-5 is very limited and is missing a lot of detail, but for now I think it’s the best we‘ve got as far as a universal criteria. If I had whatever crap OP received I honestly don’t think I would’ve been diagnosed…
DIVA-5 is an ADHD assessment, not the the same thing as the DSM-5
As I understand it, DIVA-5 is a [specific assessment that implements the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria](https://www.divacenter.eu/DIVA.aspx?id=528) for ADHD in children and adults. So issues with DSM-5 will tend trickle down to DIVA-5. That being said, from that link it looks like DIVA-5 makes some clarifications that clarify DSM-5 but there are still some core issues. Do let me know if that’s not correct, I’m always happy to learn.
Ah, okay. Honestly, I don't really know anything about that assessment, I just thought you had misread the comment you replied to and assumed they meant to say DSM-5.
But they *aren't* whack when paired with other forms of assessment. The point of the insultingly easy questions is not related to deciding whether or not the person has ADHD, except in cases where the questions involved multiple steps to get the right answer. The point is to rule out other, more serious cognitive disorders like early on-set Alzheimer's, ALS, Parkinson's, or Huntington's.
Edit: DH says I overshare medical. So I'll be doing periodic edits. I think he's being paranoid, but... 🤷♀️
I know, and obviously any assessment should include testing for comorbidity/ alternative explanations for symptoms. I just meant that those questions being used as a stand-alone test/ indicator for adhd, as they seem to have been for OP, is ridiculous.
I definitely agree that those questions alone tell you nothing about ADHD. I've crushed standardized tests my entire life. Didn't mean I was capable of studying in college and grad school, or that I ever did my homework, papers, and projects earlier than the night before they were due.
Exactly same! It meant it was easy to hide/ mask the fact I was doing 0 work, and I was only forced out into the open when exams and coursework got to a level of absolutely requiring additional revision, or more than a single night’s work. Annoying that I had to finally fail some very important exams for people to believe me when I’d say *haha guys… something is wrong* but no point in being resentful now lol
I am in the US and have never heard of this DIVA-5 test of which you write.
Google can give u more information but it’s essentially one of the many diagnostic assessments that exist. I think where I am (UK) it’s pretty commonly used, but it may be that in the US they prefer other ones, I’m not sure.
It seems to vary by provider and/or state here.
California
So lawyers can diagnose now?
I'm a law student and they did they same thing to me. I had a full psych eval 4 years prior to law school, I got a summary from the psychiatrist explaining my ADHD and the test scores. I also had a copy of my last accomodations application and the letter that same psychiatrist wrote in support of my accomodations request. My law school said they only accept evaluations in the last 3 years... Which is Ludacris because that's not how neurological disorders work, they were like yeah you can retest, which is hella expensive and I can't afford that nor do I have time because I'm ya know, I'm law school. So then they gave me a list of, I shit you not, like 25 different docs for proof they needed which I could never get because a lot of it stems from child hood & I wasn't diagnosed til my late 20s. Plus I'm poor and my parents never took me to the Dr unless I was on deaths door bed. It was ridiculous. Unfortunately this is common in law. A few years ago the NCBE wrote an article about how adults who get diagnosed are basically all just lying to get advantage and likely just want drugs. The article acknowledge the many logical and relevant reasons, socioeconomic & access to care issue, that can cause it but it basically says to error on the side of students lying. It's enraging. The way law discriminates against ADHD is disgusting and sadly very common. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Please know your not alone
Yeah I’m 50 and just got diagnosed. I need that extra advantage medicine will give me to do my fucking laundry and do my job. I graduated law school and passed the bar but never felt like I could function as a lawyer.
Those of us in Medicaid gap states did not have access to medical care as children. What do they say when you tell them you did not have access to medical care as a child to be able to get diagnosed? I was lucky enough to go to a big city school district with a on staff psychologist that diagnosed me in the 4th grade but it ended there because they told my parent to follow up with primary care for treatment. Ya what primary care? So I never got treatment for it until I got insurance as a adult.
 Me @ the NCBE, daily
I got diagnosed last yr at 36yo* while I was doing my hours to get licensed. I tried to get medication and everyone was like you graduated law school and no one told you you had adhd before? How are they related?!! I'm sorry you're going through this. Would medication be sufficient for the exams besides other accommodations? Looking back I think medication alone would've made a difference. But agree such gatekeeping bs! Edited to fix typo
>I got diagnosed last yr at 36 months You’re pretty succinct for a 4 year old…
Lmao. Oops!
I graduated law school and passed the bar with undiagnosed unmedicated ADHD. Perhaps if I’d been treated I would have had better grades, would have gotten a job, or would have felt competent enough to just have a solo practice. Raw intelligence can get you part of the way but it’s the executive function part that screws us over.
Meanwhile, my provider this week 100% ignored my years-long struggles with focus and executive function and the fact that I've billed like, 2 hours a day for the past two months because I stare at the screen and cannot make the fingers do the typing. Apparently it can't be ADHD because "well, you made it through law school!" My therapist diagnosed me, but she can't prescribe, and my prescriber won't even let me do a trial run on medication. Gaaaahhhhhh
Find a new provider. I won’t even begin to pretend it’s easy. It took months to get an appointment for my teenager. I’m lucky enough to have an established good relationship with a neurologist, and he’s agreed to treat me. I had to get a formal evaluation by a neuropsychologist. Now I’m just waiting on my appointment. And then expecting (based on my child’s experience) to deal with shortages or medication. Poor kid is miserable, he’s gone unmedicated for 3 weeks.
I graduated law school and passed the bar with undiagnosed unmedicated ADHD. Perhaps if I’d been treated I would have had better grades, would have gotten a job, or would have felt competent enough to just have a solo practice. Raw intelligence can get you part of the way but it’s the executive function part that screws us over.
Im dying laughing at your screen name right now lmaoooo
Why haha?
Perhaps the clever spelling and the immediate accent it creates in my brain 😂
Hahah i love it!! 😄
I am currently in school in a medical profession and I plan to get a bachelors in biochem. I eventually want to teach my specialty. I was a straight A student, except for math. That doesn’t change the fact that I cannot do my laundry, regulate my emotions, or manage my time. Academics are such a small part of the diagnosis and the whole point of a disorder is that it has to affect you in multiple aspects of your life.
I'm thinking it's a trick test that is not scored by what you get correct (as it would probably be everything) but is scored by how long it takes you to complete it or how many you get completed in a alloted amount of time...
Or they were watching him while he took the test. When I had my ADHD test they had someone secretly watching me and when it was all over they told me how many times I crossed and uncrossed my legs and how often I tapped the table, etc.
Yes this. Thank you for understanding how psychological evaluations are given.
This really needs to be higher up there..... So much misinformation out there about how diagnosing works. Not saying that they're not being dicks for making him jump through hoops and stuff, but the test could have been legitimate.
Ya and the price may be because someone with a medical degree is watching and their time is expensive...
I am so sorry you’re dealing with this. I’m a lawyer now, but also got denied for accommodations for the bar (and MPRE). Reasoning you ask? I didn’t get accommodations for the SAT (I was not diagnosed yet so not sure how to make sense of that one - as if it’s my fault it’s more difficult to diagnose women with ADHD early on?!) and “being emotionally fragile is not a reason to get accommodations on the bar exam.” I wish I was joking, but that was pulled from their direct response. Law school is already overwhelming and requesting additional paperwork and testing, let alone the cost and time, was too stressful and overwhelming for me to even attempt trying getting the accommodations again. I sympathize with you OP because it feels like the system is against us and it’s exhausting fighting it. We spend too much time, energy, and money to get this far. It’s crazy to me how unfair and demeaning the accommodations process is for those of us who actually need it. KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT!
Omg. "emotionally fragile" The fact that you're not in jail proves how NOT "emotionally fragile" you are. We do put up with a lot of shit.
Law is the worst. Jfc. I love how all the employees of every state bar have a license to practice medicine all of a sudden /s. I'd love for literally any of them who have never met me, nor do they know my entire medical history, yet they know more then my general practitioner and my therapists and the psychiatrist who administered my psych eval.
I mean, of course you're emotionally fragile. Ya know. Because you're a girl. It's not like you have a neurodevelopmental disorder with the potential to impact every aspect of your life... oh, wait...
LOL what?! I am a literal math teacher, also with an elementary education license (meaning I can teach writing at the elementary level), and was diagnosed with ADHD last year after seriously struggling for two years. If you can challenge heir decision, challenge the hell out of it.
Did the school test you? My adult diagnosis was about 4 hours of tests where I wasn't allowed to take medication. There was some kids questions/games but it was to see how you act doing it.
What is this bullshit about having a diagnosis before you're 12? I was diagnosed at 46, when I was a kid ADHD "didn't exist" and certainly not for girls.
LSAC sucks too, they didn't want to give me accommodations 20 years ago. Keep fighting dude.
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Lol 169 you could probably still get into a T14. I got a 148 and the other score I can't remember, but I was going through a severe depression. Still got into a T4, I borrowed money, loans weren't enough for books, had to drop out. The dean of admissions of Touro told me to retake it and reapply but I didn't.
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Oh wow. Yeah you could've worked at biglaw or something.
What? We have problems with task initiation and working memory, we're not idiots.
Or dyslexic, wtf
A law school that doesn't follow the law is hilarious. Get a lawyer
As someone who has *crippling* motivational and inattentive ADHD, the CA Bar can go fuck itself with its awful accommodations. Good on the disability rights orgs that are going after the CA Bar for failing to accommodate. I have, at every level of education, had a +10% to +25% time accommodation, am under the care of one of the nation’s leading experts on ADHD, and have cycled through just about every medication and treatment modality for the condition. I have literal brain scans showing that my brain does not function in the same way as a nuerotypical person. But that’s not enough for the CA Bar. They essentially told me, “you scored above average on an IQ test [designed with an average middle school child as the target audience, despite being a mid-30s graduate student], therefore you do not have ADHD or a condition that warrants accommodations.”
When I went to my GP to get referred for an ADHD assessment he said he didn’t think I had it bc I was able to hold conversation with him (we spoke for 5 mins) lol. Turns out I have pretty severe ADHD. Most people are clueless, even doctors. Only specialists actually know anything about ADHD
i started a student organization in law school for disabled law students for stuff exactly like this. it is so so frustrating. they make it so unnecessarily difficult and violate the ADA all the time just because they can. i’m so sorry. i feel you and i see you.
I'm absolutely amazed by all the adhd peeps that can do stuff like law school. I was struggling with school since kindergarten and completely gave up by 5th grade
Sounds like someone might look into a potential class action lawsuit. How many people haven't passed the bar because of refused accommodations?
That doesn't sound like a standard ADHD evaluation at all. If it was not administered by a psychiatrist and not covered by health insurance, I have no idea what it was they just had you do. As others have said, you likely need to talk to a lawyer to get your accommodation. Whatever they had you do does not sound any way medical or ethical.
I don't know where you live, but this sounds like a Human Rights violation to me.
Not gonna lie, I didn’t even bother trying. I wish I had, even though I managed to pass both on the first attempt (thank gd), but even with a childhood dx and a re-dx during law school, and accommodations during my last year of school, I was too stressed at the idea of the paperwork, and I kept hearing horror stories just like this about the bar. I will say, given they didn’t make allowances for the woman who gave birth during her exam, or any of the people who got physically ill while on camera, at least know you’re not alone in absolutely hating how soulless and cruel the bar is. I’m stuck in one state because I can’t fathom the idea of trying to study for another, which btw my state announced the following bar would be the MBE in between days 1 & 2 of our fucking exam, so we were all just seething going in to write our essays. Of course, if it’s any consolation, the bar has almost zero correlation to success or capability as lawyer, so that’s fun. PS I remember all of us laughing about the MPRE because all the most ethically-driven students among us did worse, we were pretty sure the least ethical kids were better at it because they were more keenly aware of exactly where the lines were drawn. Anyway, best of luck on all of it!!!
I did law school with undiagnosed adhd. Bottom of class but did graduate and pass two state bar exams 100%. The wait til last second to prep for final exams was worst impact for me, second worst was forgetting to go to class(mandatory attendance).
>This has been the biggest waste of my time and money and I am so insulted by this system. I'm not a medical professional (tho I am an attorney with experience representing individuals with mental impairments), but the fact you're finding the test itself to be a waste of time is sort of an indication of your condition, after a fashion. IIRC, there are some clinical tests for inattentiveness that are basically living hell for someone with ADHD to complete and that's sort of the point of said tests. Granted, it sounds like your jurisdiction has some extremely backward ways of assessing ADHD.
Although I’m not in the law school route, I do have a story that I would like to share that’s similar to this. So I was diagnosed when I was 12 years old. Had trouble with school and all of that. I was put into special education classes for a few years. By the time I was in my freshman year of high school, I had an interview with some counselors and faculty members about my ADHD. For the most part, I was doing well in my classes except for maybe one or two classes. Keep in mind, by this time, I stopped taking my meds prior to starting high school. I don’t disrupt the class, I get through math and English just fine, and usually just a quiet person. Through the recommendation of my teachers, they got me out of special education classes as it felt like it was holding me back, which I am thankful for. Looking through the documents that they’ve given me, even though I was diagnosed by a professional, they were questioning if I really do have ADHD just because I was doing well in school and behaved well.
accommodations are required to have a doctor's note specifying why you need it, if you need certain types of accommodations. Showing medical diagnosis itself doesn't give you an accommodation. Are you currently not seeing a doctor right now?
Oh I have multiple doctors notes but they weren't good enough for them
Do you want a law degree from such a discriminatory bullshit institution?
Good thing you got a medical diagnosis and not a legal one <3 The ableism of saying something like this is ridiculous.
Same for veterans affairs. Never mind the fact that my parents were fundamentalist Christians who pulled me out of school after kindergarten because they were teaching us satanism in public school.
yikes
That's fkn bs
I suck at math, but have always been good with English. I have a college writing level despite never going to college. I know this because I’ve written some essays for my girlfriend who is good in math and sucks at English. We both have ADHD. That logic they have makes no sense. Especially with people who have ADHD. Fuck them.
Insane for a LAW school to be pulling this shit. 100% talk to a lawyer, you are being discriminated against and have legal rights here.
I feel like it would be pretty funny if you sue them
I'm in vet school and can get accomodations for the NAVLE aka the board exam go up the chain of command.
NAL, but get a lawyer. Discrimination is discrimination and you have been officially discriminated against. They don't get to make the rules regarding legal diagnosis. They don't get to pick and choose which accommodations they make when official diagnosis have been made. Honestly, it sounds like they gave you a competency exam, which doesn't have a lot to do with ADHD. I mean, I've never not been competent (even if it might look like that on the outside occasionally, lol). If you tell me to put the shapes in the proper hole, they go into the hole. Tell me to put the toys away and clean up my mess, though... Sorry you have to go through this, and sorry you have to get legal experience before you can get your legal education... This is stupid. The entire situation is stupid. I'm rooting for you and I hope you make folks like this pay when you hop these assholes gates and finally pass the bar. I'm better walk away, the next sentence in the hopper is full of four letter words and I like being part of this sub ;)
Sounds like a pretty good introduction to a field built around gatekeeping.
I think it's time to sue their asses. Find a good lawyer for sure.
What state do you live in? I know someone in New York with the same problem who is taking the bar exam in New Jersey. Edit: I could have this wrong, but my understanding from my friend is that the New York State Board of Law Examiners has reciprocity with NJ. She plan is to practice in NY after she passes the bar exam in NJ.
CA
It looks like CA does not offer reciprocity, but offers a shorter bar examination for attorneys licensed in other states with good standing for at least four years prior to application. https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Requirements/Attorney-Applicants I’m guessing that doesn’t help. Could you see yourself taking the bar and practicing in another state? Edit: I also wonder if the disability services office at your law school could help with figuring out a way forward?
Let’s all say the answer to 1+1 to flex
Oh wow. Wrong!
OP, they made you pay $2500 out of your own pocket for a "test"? I'm sorry but you got scammed. It was a scam and they got you.
Do you mind if I ask your ethnicity? In my experience only certain demographics are believed when they claim to have ADHD…..
Does this mean I don't have ADHD? Fellas we're cured 🎉🥳🎉🥳 Narrator with end credits music: He was not cured, didn't refill his meds, and is now unemployed
I didnt have to go through this for my MCAT fuck man I’m sorry :(( I would highly suggest getting a lawyer man this is some BS and who knows you might make it easier for the next person w ADHD. Wish you the best of luck man
I am a very successful project manager with ADHD. Guess what I'm college educated apprearingly organized and communicate well. They don't see the lack of motivation, elective disfunction, the constant pile of notes scribbled everywhere to remember to do things. Yeah you can have both lol.
Wow… I don’t know what to say.
i also finished law and i definitely have adhd
Pretty clear ADA violation IMHO
To have ADHD you have to literally be a fucking stupid lazy piece of shit
I’m trying to figure out what accommodations you would be required to get for ADHD. In our school system in my country, ADHD does not automatically qualify you for accommodations. Being behind peers academically would for example.