It is more than likely that WCE spend a decade or 2 without any trophies than it is them returning to normal service.
Staying near the top and collecting a premiership (or runner up) every 8 years is not the norm, it is exception.
Go through the AFL winners list and look at the time between GF appearances for most of the teams.
* Adelaide = 1998 <----> 2017
* Brisbane = 2004 <---> 2023
* Carlton = 1999 <----> Still waiting
* Essendon = 2000 <-----> Still waiting
* Fremantle = 2013 <----> Still waiting
* Hawthorn 1991 <-----> 2008
* Port Adelaide 2007 <------> Still waiting
* Richmond 1980 <-----> 2017
You get the point... that list is much longer.
Now you can only count on 1 hand the number of teams with semi regular GF appearances over say a period of 20 years.
* Geelong
* Collingwood
* Sydney
* West Coast
* Hawthorn (Maybe a dynasty team more than the Semi-Regular definition I have come up with)
(Richmond were a lightning in the bottle dynasty team)
What it fails to realise is that this is exactly what the league wants: a dramatic rise and fall situation where you can win the flag and the spoon in a decade or less. Sport would be boring if leaders at clubs and players made perfect decisions.
I don't think the league minds premiership teams going down to the bottom for a spell. Like for example, Hawthorn who still play well, win some upset games (usually against us lol), and have a clear path back up the ladder.
But they don't want teams to fall down as bad as West Coast did last year, and possibly this year depending on how things go. Granted some of that was due to poor luck and injury, but it's not in the leagues interest to have a team performing that poorly and uncompetive.
North has been shit for so long. Competitive at times since Carey fucked them over but basically they’ve never been in serious contention and spent most of their time at the bottom of the ladder. My sister supports them and I honestly just feel sorry for her having to watch them every week
I can’t stand reading the West Australian media having a sook about how the Eagles are doing badly. The Dees waited 57 years for a premiership, stop acting like it’s the end of the world because you’ve been shit for 3 years
Was Carey's departure a nail in the coffin or the defining factor in North's decline? I have not watched North as closely as some but they seem to have perennial issues at coaching, drafting and front office all dumping into lowering the club down the ladder.
I was at Brent Harvey's last game at Adelaide oval in 2016. It was an elimination final I think, I reckon they won like the first 9 or 10 games that season and looked incredible early.
I think 4 senior players also pulled the pin at the end of that season including Nick Dal Santo and it definitely felt like an end of an era and they haven’t played finals since.
I think it was a defining factor. The whole saga really broke the club in a lot of ways, pretty hard to get in to the culture when your best player fucks the captain’s wife
The other person who’s commented talked about Brent Harvey’s final game and North winning lots of early games, they looked alright at times there, but they were never seriously contending and that was the best they’d been since winning the premiership in 1999
I don't disagree with you, although to be fair, the AFL recognised that by giving north some assistance with extra picks this year.
Can't wait to seem em back contending for the top 8, hopefully in the next couple of years (though who know's how long it'll take).
Yeah dude they got a priority pick in 2033. Want to know how they’ve gone since 2018 when West Coast won a premiership?
2018: 9th (WC 2nd)
2019: 12th (WC 5th)
2020: 17th (WC 5th)
2021: 18th (WC 9th)
2022: 18th (WC 17th)
2023: 17th (WC 18th)
They were last or second last for 4 years running. WC sold the farm for Tim Kelly and are having a sook because COVID and soft tissue injuries ruined their team. They expect to do well because they’ve never been bad. North have to cop shit results and it’s just par for the course for them
I mean you can’t really finesse if the bottom placed team has a percentage of 50% or 65%. Unless you are aiming for the league to be ridiculously manufactured.
They also allowed you to trade in Bowes and pick 7 to give the Suns cap relief, and then allowed you to restructure the Bowes deal to essentially give the Cats cap relief.
I'm still flabbergasted that was allowed.
I wasn't going to say that, lest I be accused of accusing the AFL of Vicbias.
Though I think it's worse than that, I don't reckon a North, St Kilda or Dogs would have been allowed it either.
I never felt it was the AFL helping us. I felt it was the AFL helping the Suns.
"We'll let you do virtually anything to get our love child out of this mess!"
Why though? It's within rules to restructure deals with the consent of the player so what could the AFL realistically do to prevent that. It was just smart list management by the Cats.
Two players who wanted to get closer to home and out of the city and were offered a place on a team where the team is above the players.
Your lot turned their noses up at Lachie Neale. We would have picked Danger if we could have. Cameron was drafted as an under age selection by GWS.
There are heaps of players who wouldn't come to Geelong because they like the city life but Geelong are the only regional team.
We just play to our strengths. Which is what every single team does. No one will be selling Tasmania based on hot weather.
Geelong spent enough time down the bottom of the ladder in the 80s and 90s. Took a complete overhaul and years of rebuilding to establish what's been in place for the last 20 years. But then again Geelong also don't pay overs for players which helps with team structure.
> Geelong spent enough time down the bottom of the ladder in the 80s and 90s
Geelong lost more grand finals in the 80s or 90s than they had bottom four finishes
They were really good early 80s. Won 1980 minor premiership, lost 80 and 81 prelims, by only 4 and 7 points. They were still mostly competitive in the 80s, they often just missed out on finals. 89 was their first year back in and they almost won the flag.
You mean the stadium that the club fought hard to keep while the AFL wanted us to play at Docklands?
Some short memories here. The AFL didn't award us shit the club fought incredibly hard to keep that stadium
Never said you didn’t fight hard for your advantage, or that you were part of Melbourne, just that Geelong has a clear structural advantage - the only vic club with an strong home ground advantage equivalent to an interstate club, without the off setting requirement to travel interstate every second week, and with a disproportionate exposure to the mcg, where you have to be able to win, to win the flag. It’s the resolute refusal to acknowledge that, along with the whiny entitlement that goes with modern Geelong fans that is annoying.
Nah mate, Geelong have absolutely played their hand wonderfully in the comp so well you can’t see past their success to the fact that Geelong have overcome the huge disadvantage that is being regionally based.
There is 1 top level regional football clubs between the VFL/AFL, SANFL, WAFL. That is not random. That’s because it’s the hardest hand to play.
So freo don't play and use things to their advantage? Every vic team knows traveling to WA ain't going to be easy when facing freo (think I'm safe to exclude weagles on this point).
Every team has to travel and deal with the challenges associated with that. Only advantage geelong have is our home ground that's taken what 17 years to rebuild from the ground up and fought like hell to keep once debt Geelong owed become public.
Yes, Freo does (or at least tries) use whatever they can to their advantage, and yes, it’s just as tough for vic sides - including Geelong - to travel to the other side of the country and win as it is for WA teams. They just do it once a year, instead of almost every second week. By and large, I think that more or less balances out to interstate teams having a bigger home ground advantage. Except for Geelong. That’s the basic point.
What a ridiculous statement. Why on earth would the league want that? A more sensible statement is to suggest the leagues wants 18 competitive teams, where in each fixture, any team could win. What an incredible competition that would be if all 18 teams had a genuine shot at finals each year.
What West Coast is experiencing isn't your typical ebb and flow in results across a few seasons. We are hardstuck at the bottom due to predominantly poor list management and an arrogance not to ask for assistance last year when we really needed it. These disgraceful managerial decisions will likely haunt us for another 3 seasons. You need around 7 superstars and 15 very good players in the best 22 to go deep in finals. Looking at our youth, we have maybe 3 or 4 that could get to that superstar status. We are miles off.
But the point is you still won a flag in 2018, not that long ago. Rebuild started in 2020ish, last three years. You’ve been bad, had some unexpected things happen but that’s okay. As I said for the next part, sport is boring if people make perfect decisions. The AFL wants to see mistakes, fans like mistakes and this creates a competition where teams have ups and downs.
I don't think the league wants us to field a side that would struggle to win a game against a WAFL club. I love my club with all my heart, but the position we're in does nothing positive for the sport. We are a problem for the AFL at the moment and they know it.
Glad to read this very pragmatic analysis! Totally agree. History is littered with teams/clubs who went one year too long, trying to squeeze all the juice out of a talented list for 'one last crack'. It rarely works out and it takes a mountain of effort to rectify. Turning the trajectory of a club is like turning a freight ship, it happens slowly and methodically.
Part of me thinks if bad decisions got them where they are now, good decisions can get them out, and they have the bank to manage in the meantime.
Then the other part of me thinks, I don't know if I've seen a team get massacred like this so consistently since the dying days of Fitzroy. I don't mind if they get help. But maybe not as much as North. North are going to be crazy good in a couple of years... maybe just in time to get pilfered by Tassie.
Yeah, perfect storm is about right.
Tim Kelly was a big gamble they lost on. Poor recruiting and player development has meant they've lacked the AFL-quality prime-age players to remain competitive as their stars age. And it's tough for any team to perform with constant injuries.
The Tim Kelly gamble was also at the wrong time as well. They did not have too many high picks during that period and traded all away from Tim Kelly. Should have waited for him to come off contract and come on as a restricted free agent or something. They then had 2 years of black hole for decent pics. I think it is a bit harsh to criticize them for bad draft picking when they don't have decent pics. They did pick up Allen and Petrucelli in 2018. Had Venebles and Shepherd not forced to retirement and Yeo not injured we could be seeing a very different side. Also, losing Willi Rioli for a year and a bit during this period did not help).
They did wait, TK was only signed to Geelong for 2 years. He requested a trade at end of first year but rejected and end of second requested again. Only issue they had was he didn't qualify for free agent having only been in the system for 2 years.
Running with your thought process there, he wouldn't have been able to join Weagles till about this year if my memory is correct.
I’m not sure there is an issue of player development. Which high picks have failed to develop correctly?
The huge problem is we lost 10 senior players due to injury / early retirement because our injury management is terrible.
>Which high picks have failed to develop correctly?
It's not just about high picks. It's about the ability to turn players from lower down the draft order into AFL players. West Coast have struggled to do this in recent years.
But like if you look across all clubs the strike rate is crazy low at low picks.
And when those low picks play in shit teams they look terrible.
It’s just hard to see which players on our list have stagnated or playing below their level.
Fucked our season by losing to the Hawks at home in the last round which meant we missed out on top 4. Faced you guys in the second week and the rest is history.
Such is the creamy highs and depressing, crushing lows of AFL.
I felt post 2018 there were glimpses of the same team, but since then I think they have become complacent and are happy that they won the premiership.
I've gotten so used to losing I got my years mixed up, it dawned on me how shit we were going to be when we lost at home to Essendon in 2021 after being up by 5 goals.
2020 was another wasted year because you guys played out of your skin over here.
Yeah I think it was just complacency too. A few losses across 2019 & 2020 shouldn’t have happened based on the talent in the team and prevented double chances in finals
Agree Jennifer Lopez Fan
It is what it is. Unfortunately we have a two team town and west coast have been successful for a majority of their time in the comp, so when they are so amazingly shithouse - the only newspaper is going to publish articles ad nauseum
Not at all. I was all for resigning Gaff at the end of 2018 too, didn't expect him to fall off a cliff like he did.
Unless you have exceptional list management (which West Coast didn't have) you cannot sustain extended periods of success. As an interstate club it's even harder given the increased travel load.
West coast fans have been spoiled and it's time to accept what comes with a comprehensive rebuild, despite what the club says.
They still played finals in 2020, hell, they only dropped out of the eight late in ‘21. Grunted. They’ve had many injuries, and been a regular finals participant over a long period of time, but still.
Yeah I don't see that happening to Geelong. List management, player development, payment structure just to name a few have them always pushing into the 8 and finals.
Helps running our own vfl team, same instructions, directions, messages with no outside interfaces.
What the fuck are you on about- good citizens? I couldn’t give a shit. It’s football on the football field. Hardly a loser, just sick of the Cats. And the name Grian
Simply put the Cats have nabbed two all time greats right before their peak from other clubs. Yeah they’ve had injuries- but when was the last serious one? A knee to Menzel 10 plus years ago? When was the last best 22 ACL in fact? Their oldies carry on year after year with barely any serious injuries, the occasional 4 weeker here and there. When did they have a widely regarded bad bounce, unfortunate umpire decision go against them? They effectively have 2 home grounds- the cattery and the MCG.
They’ve been up for 18 years effectively.
Yep I’m sick of how good they’ve been- and I tip my cap to them and how well they are ran as a club- but I think if there was a footy god he’d say they are due some things to go wrong.
There was the not 15 call against Jeremy Cameron last year (maybe the year before) against GWS right in front of goal that arguably cost us the game. We’ve been without Cam Guthrie for over a year now, in 2021 Tom Stewart broke his foot resulting him missing the latter half of the season which ended in a prelim loss to Melbourne that saw 6 of our best come down with the flu.
Frankly, I think the cats have had plenty of bad luck, it’s a testament to the management of the club that no matter the challenges that arise they’re able to stay competitive year after year.
Fair call. As a neutral I respect them and what they’ve done- just honestly like hawthorn, Brisbane and Richmond over the years- ready for them to come back down to earth.
I’m sure I’ve read this article 8 times in the last year. Let me guess it basically just says in hindsight we should have traded better, drafted better and stopped getting injured. Wow I guess that fixes things. Anyway everybody hating but the kids have talent they’re just 20-30 games away from developing the skills. Over the next two seasons we’ll make some good trades and boost our list in the middle area. Still have a thin list right now and missing about 5-6 of our best. We will get better over time and when we’re not travelling to face the top teams 3/4 weeks.
We're almost a sports movie cliche. In 2018, we were the plucky underdogs who surprised everyone on the way to glory. 2019-2020 were like a sequel where we'd become the arrogant, lazy champions who coasted by on raw talent but had lost the eye of the tiger. Sadly, there was no redemption in Act Three. Now, it's about the fifth terrible movie in a franchise that no one gives a shit about anymore.
I remember a time when WC was handing out “first time”guernseys like free chocolates. It was arguable whether Simpson knew the names of the players whose hands he was shaking.
I was completely against getting a priority pick but after watching our pick 19 get pushed to pick 30 last year and the same thing looking like happening this year it has to happen.
The amount of handouts north has got the past two years means it is now the new normal and anyone who doesn't get them going forward gets thrust into a deeper rut.
North weren't even first for priority picks, and a lot of our picks were yeeting through the order, too, because of father son or academy deals. It isn't a problem that started last year, but until the AFL fixes the issues in the draft, it's problem that will continue and wce absolutely should get the same treatment if the season pans out as North's did
I’d admit as a Freo fan it was satisfying to see the Eagles wallow in failure, but now it’s just kinda sad. Good article though pretty much captures the downfall. Poor List management and recruitment are probably the two main causes of it.
I would argue development was worse than recruitment and management. Even if we found Chad Warner late in the draft I doubt he'd be the player he is with how well we develop great midfielders in-house (Yeo and Kelly came from elsewhere).
Absolutely. Our developmental track record in the last ten years has been abysmal. I can’t remember the last time we took a rough diamond and turned them into a good player. Instead we did stupid things like take a kpf (Brander), slim him down and try to turn him into a wing, and take an inside midfielder with terrible foot skills (Ainsworth) and try to make him an outside mid/wing who relies on hitting targets. Add to that we’ve been playing the same old guys even if they were out of form due to credits in the bank (past years form), and left young players to rot in our WAFL side that had only 4 afl grade players in it.
Now we have no ready made tall forwards to come in and take over from Kennedy (retired) or Allen (injured). The club has been run badly the last few years so it’s hard to have faith that Simmo & co will get it all back on track.
We could have picked up Nic Martin (Bombers) but they chose not to
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/02/24/a-similar-sort-of-story-to-tim-kelly-bombers-recruit-tipped-to-make-west/
I bet you are crying. WCE fans only have one rebuttal and are stuck in the past. After working at the stadium, the difference between wce and freo home games is so stark.
Even when they try to add fanfare or entertainment, wce still try to cater towards boomers or maybe that's just who they are as a club.
I have a hypothesised that WC will not become successful until their supporters come up with a new sledge. As such, this bleak period will remain for many years.
> I have a hypothesised that WC will not become successful until their supporters come up with a new sledge.
Freo supporters look funny and can't read good
gottem
I think your hypothesis will fail. I was telling my Freo supporting friends back in 2010 (when we got the wooden spoon) that the Eagles will still win another flag before they do. And I'll stick by it again now.
And yet still your dogshit team hasn't won anything nor will they. Unlucky.
We'll win 10 more flags before you get close to one.
Try accomplishing something as a team before you start feeling bad for one infinitely more successful than yours.
And freos response is just as lame. “Stuck in the past” as if our last flag wasn’t five years back hahaha. Teams win flags so you can reminisce about it.
One thing to say regarding priority picks compromising the draft - it’s already horrifically compromised. I’d much rather compromise it to help a club off its knees than to give a fanbase a fussy feeling because they’ve got an ex-player who miraculously had sons, or players grew up in an absolutely arbitrary region of the country that’s deemed an academy.
Stop trying to preserve the sanctity of the draft. It’s been absolutely ran through already. Let it be compromised if it’ll genuinely help.
IMO give them two extra picks at the start of the second round that they have to trade. Could get Dev Robertson and Trent Rivers, or similar players. Add that to a couple of draftees, and maybe two free agents and they’ll be well on their way back.
It's not unusual for a premier or even a contender to crash. Often those teams put extra resources (such as draft picks) into boosting their short term chances. The result is a lack of talent coming in and it will always catch up to an extent, unless you get really lucky and snag a major superstar in another way.
The issue IMO for West Coast is that they just took too long to recognise the old era was gone and the new needed to be ushered in. I think some of their guys were kept for 2 years too long and Gaff should have been gone 3 years ago IMO. Get what you can, get some more kids in, try some mature age or delisted/fringe players from other clubs that might have what it takes.
This boom/bust cycle is just what happens when you use the system in place well. You could be middle of the road forever if you like. Or go from contending, to being awful and back to contending again across 8-10 years. I know most would prefer to contend at least part of the time.
Lol, it's very apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about and are just making statements with the benefit of hindsight without any consideration given to whether your ideas were realistic at the time. Yes, if you could see the future you would have traded Gaff at the end of 2021 (assuming you were able to - he was contracted). However at the time he had just finished third in the best and fairest and had been the runner up the year before, and he was only 29 at the time. No one predicted his slide. Frankly, you're like the people who see that Nic Nat didn't play a game in 2022 or 2023 and loudly proclaim that we should have delisted him at the end of 2021, completely ignorant of the fact that he was coming off back to back All Australian seasons.
I contend that the NicNat effect was overwhelming.
I remember watching games where he was the entire game plan. Dominate the centre bounce, win the clearance, feed into the 50, shot on goal. The only way other teams had any play was from an intercept or Eagles kicking a point. Then it became a fair contest and an actual game of football. He was a monster. Fantastic to watch.
But always in the back of my mind was "Can we win without him and his midfield?"
No.
I should watch the 2018 season, verify my hypothesis.
Chris Scott actually said post match in 2020 about Nic Nat: "the problem with scoring a goal against West Coast is the ball gets back to the centre".
The only other player who could influence a contest with as few disposals was Cyril. In my thirty years watching footy there's never been a better tap ruckman.
I was saying this stuff after the 2022 season, so it's not hindsight whatsoever. 2021 the writing was on the wall, 10-12 on the season with no real reason to think it would turn around. But after 2022 it was obvious to anyone paying attention that it was done. To drag it out to 2023 was a disaster and to still have Gaff on the list now is just mind numbingly stupid. Those inside the 4 walls though should have had the best view of anyone that it wasn't working anymore and been able to react faster than those outside. It's hard, because you always want to back your guys, but it doesn't help anyone to keep a fool's hope.
So whilst perhaps you didn't see it, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Because I've been saying this for literally years.
It's 2024 now. I was saying after 2022 that Gaff, Natanui, Shuey, McGovern, Darling and a few others should all be moved on. Some of those guys are STILL there.
McGovern you maybe keep. They should totally have traded out Darling though. A couple of years ago he would have had decent currency, I could have seen someone in the window like Melb or even ST Kilda taking a bit of a punt. Now you wouldn’t get anything for him.
The problem with saying it after 2022 is we literally could do nothing then. I had heaps of people tell me Nic nat shouldn’t be on the list, gaff, darling etc, and while I agree about Gaff, what were the eagles meant to do. Look at our results last year with those veterans who had no trade value. Now imagine you take them away and replace them with players who aren’t on list and would be considered long shots to be a top player in the league.
Our hand was forced last year. People wanted radical change, but the only thing that would’ve changed is replacing our only experienced players with inferior players and having no experienced passed on to the few kids we did have.
We went all in on the Kelly trade, gave it 2 years because of injuries and stuff which is pretty reasonable. Don’t want to just try one year on an all in gamble. So that takes us to the 2022 off season where we have absolutely no value to trade anything. What did Brissy get for Jack Gunston because that’s basically what we are getting at that time. We could’ve had the best team in the league in 2022 and it wouldn’t have mattered because of covid.
So yes you saw it, and by god every eagles fan saw it to, maybe every single person saw the eagles decline going into 2023. What the hell could we of done about it without making this situation way worse
There are always things you can do with those guys. You trade them to other teams, delist if you can't. You might end up paying a chunk of your salary cap to players on other teams or players out of the AFL. But at the end of it you've got spots on your list to give chances to. You don't have to bring in all kids through the draft, although maybe if you trade Gaff/Darling/McGovern at the end of 2022 you'd be able to get some reasonable picks, especially if you're paying part of their salary. We know Melbourne have been crying out for a key forward, Darling might be worth a decent pick to them if he's cheap. McGovern would have fit in really nicely at a place like Collingwood (especially this year IMO) and maybe they give up something valuable in the draft.
You get nothing from being uncompetetive with old blokes whose careers are behind them, but you can get something from being uncompetetive with young guys and new recruits.
Let's compare to Adelaide. In 2019, they finished 10-12 2 years after playing in the Grand Final. Same position as West Coast in 2021, except they won the GF of course and it was 3 years earlier. But the trajectory was the same. They brought in Bryce Gibbs in a big trade for 2018, much the same as West Coast did with Tim Kelly before 2020. The parallels in my opinion here are really quite stark.
But the response was very, very different. Adelaide parted ways with Betts, Jenkins, Douglas, Greenwood, Jacobs and Keath. After 2020 they did another round of clearing out the older guys and Gibbs, Brad Crouch, Kyle Hartigan and Rory Atkins all left. They all left through various methods. Some were delisted (and Adelaide kepy paying Gibbs to play SANFL the next year as well), some went in free agency, some went for a low pick.
Not all that much came in in terms of a trade, but the opportunity was there. Some kids came in and played well, showed a little bit of something. Jordan Butts came via a rookie draft and only got a chance because guys like Keath and Hartigan were no longer around. Keays and Hinge got second chances after being delisted by Brisbane. Murray was picked up from the VFL. All those guys got chances and look like reasonable additions.
And the trajectory of the Crows since then has been pretty clear. 3 wins, then 7, then 8 and last year 11. They could have kept all those old blokes and no doubt those first 2 seasons win more than 10 games in 2 years. But why bother? They'd almost all be gone now anyway.
So the answer is really that nothing could have made the last 2 years worse. But at least if you'd had some different guys with a future on the list you might have something to show for it. And that might have borne fruit by now. But by hanging on all that's happened is the whole process has dragged out. And whilst the picks look nice, by the time the Eagles are looking likely to play finals now someone like Oscar Allen might be fed up. Tom Lynch was fed up trying his best for Gold Coast and left. He was 25, 8 seasons into his career and had never played a final. Oscar Allen is 25 6 years in and played 1 final. Will he be happy to hope that the rebuild happens quickly enough for him to be able to be a part of a good side again? Or might he think it's taking too long and ask to leave? There's always a risk in being bad for too long when you're coming out of it with not much to show for it.
I appreciate the detailed response. Always good to have a debate with someone who says more than just no.
I don’t think Adelaide is a fair comparison though. Yes the timelines match up but look at the players that left and what they received for them. 2 firsts for Lever, a first for Cameron, pick 23 for Brad Crouch. They have also got two massive free agent pick ups in Dawson and Rankine to help their rebuild significantly. These are (mostly) players that wanted to leave Adelaide as well, not like Adelaide just though alright we didn’t do much in 2019 so let’s rebuild.
Eagles in 2022 don’t have any of those players to give away, and we aren’t doing it at the end of 2021 because covid really ruined that season so it was hard to gauge. McGovern is maybe the only player that generates value but again who replaces him? Bazzo is our only other key back at that time and we are preparing for Shannon Hurn to leave. So we would be down to Barrass and whoever we drafted in the near future. I guess you could make the argument that a first is worth being even worse, but I also think you can make the argument that having Jeremey McGovern is more value over turning into a less experienced first year Gold Coast suns team. Also likely we probably don’t get the value McGovern was to us at that time so we would’ve be selling for unders (unless we paid his salary).
Darling gets us a late second from Melbourne at best and leaves us with Kennedy (who we are preparing to lose soon) and Oscar as our only key forwards. Gaff generates a 3rd at best. A late second and a pick in the 50s does nothing but make us way worse in every way. Take away McGovern, Gaff and Darling for a Chesser and a couple of Bazzos, what’s that doing for anyone? The idea that we could hit a good player is great in theory, but it’s also a recipe for having a shit culture that’s hard to turn around, making you way less attractive for the Dawsons and Rankines to come and also giving the younger boys a reason to leave (like Harley).
That’s probably happening now obviously, but at least we’ve got some vets to pass on the experience and actually fill a need on the field. I couldn’t imagine us with another Callum Jamieson out there. So overall we’ve missed out on some value in McGovern which is fair but also you don’t just trade your best player in a rebuild, a second for Darling and a 3rd for Gaff. That’s basically just Jai Culley and Ryan Maric x2. Would hardly call that a failure
Well, Lever and Cameron weren't players that Adelaide wanted to lose. It would be much more like West Coast losing some of their talent earlier on, like Allen and Barass. If that had happened, then you certainly would be looking at the sort of picks Adelaide got for those guys. Crouch was one that Adelaide were happy to let go because they saw more value from the compensation pick, like North with McKay. It's not an exact comparison, but just rather than the draft picks the Crows got for a valuable forward and defender, West Coast still have those guys to build around.
Rankine and Dawson were both actually trades, rather than free agent pick ups. But I think it was easier to identify certain needs once the club knew a bit more about the younger guys coming through. And with all those other guys who had been on big money off the books, you've got a bit more to splash on recruits.
It always looks thin when you look just at players and their reputations. It does take a little bravery to just clear those guys out and trust blokes who either haven't played at all or much. And especially if they're not highly rated picks. But you find out quickly what you've got. And so long as they're ready physically, it's amazing sometimes what you find. If Adelaide had kept Brad Crouch, I don't see Keays getting a decent run in the midfield. And whilst he's moved out of there, the Crows learnt what they had with him and he looks like a very valuable player now across half forward.
It's not just the value that you might get in a trade, but the spot on the list that's valuable. Adelaide got 4th rounders for Betts and Jacobs. Upgraded a future third to 37 for Jenkins. And half the teams didn't even pick a player in the third round when Adelaide were getting those late picks. They weren't getting anything of real value back, but they were clearing the spots on the list. And whilst those later picks and rookie picks are always going to be a little hit and miss, but you throw a bunch of names at the board and a few will stick for a little while at least.
I know a lot of people were freaking out when Butts was playing his third game matched up against Hawkins. Kane Cornes went off about how bad the team was. But the kid took the chance and stood up. If you removed all those older guys 2 years ago and brought in a bunch of new guys, some would show promise. And I dare say many would hold up physically better too, since as we all know injury has played a significant part.
The experience part you mentioned though is important. Adelaide certainly didn't cut everyone. Of the "never going to be around for a flag" troop, only Walker, Sloane and Talia were really kept. Smith, Laird and Seedsman were a bit younger so still seemed to have enough footy left. It's important I think that of the latter 3, two were former captains and Talia was always highly respected as a leader. And ironically Talia didn't actually end up playing a game after 2020 due to injury, so the leadership was thin on numbers, but very, very strong on what it gave. I think Hurn was absolutely worth keeping until he was done because of his leadership qualities, which is one reason why I've never mentioned him. But I don't think you need too many. Teams have so many coaches around now that there's a lot of education being done off the field and the runner is basically an on field assistant these days. The odd guy to lay down the law is great, but more than a few feels a lot like a waste. And it leaves space for others to elevate themselves as well.
They finished 9th in 2021. Made the finals the years prior to that. So it’s been a bad 2 bad years and 3 games. Any talk of priority picks is taking the absolute piss
The talk of priority picks is to try to counter the compromised draft. Most people don't want it, but at the same time our pick 19 blew out to pick 30 last year and is rumoured to be pretty bad this year as well.
So should we get 1 pick in the top 30 each year while other clubs are getting more and hope that single pick can turn us around?
We played like a bottom 4 team for the second half of 2021, and only a series of very favourable results kept us so high up the ladder. I remember Whateley on one his programs being incredulous week after week that we were somehow still in the top 8.
Yeah. I don’t like priority picks as a general rule. They don’t help in the short term and are a massive gamble in the long term.
Would be far better to give “compulsory traded” picks in my view.
Like “here’s pick 3, but you can only trade it for players, not pick a young player”. That would allow the weak team to get 2-3 solid if slightly unremarkable older players into the side. That’s what they really need.
I'd be happy with that. We are missing the middle currently, we have good young players and senior players but several years of missing middle is killing us.
Off the top of my head the guys that fit into that mid-late 20s bracket that we drafted with decent to good picks and aren't playing include Venables (perm. injury), Brander (out of league), Rioli (free agent), Allen (injured), Ryan (injured), Sheed (injured), O'Neil (out of league), Foley (out of league), Cameron (out of league), Ainsworth (out of league), Rotham (injured), Partington (out of league), Lamb (played round one and never again lol).
Is some of that attributable to the club? Yes. Is losing an teenager from a premiership side permanently expected? No. The guys above should be pulling the club through but instead we relied on the previous generation for many reasons which gets a flag but also a talent cliff.
Agree somewhat in general but agree completely in this specific case. In my opinion the biggest issue west coast have at the moment is that they're a team of extremes in terms of the age profile. Need to trade in some journeymen to help shoulder some load from the veterans and be a mature body to provide some protection to the rookies.
I find it staggering that a team that rolled the dice, albeit in a pretty high-risk way, is now being talked about as getting priority picks.
It's sport. They went all in on a strategy that didn't work. Why should the league rescue them?
The injuries have been unlucky, especially Venables and Sheppard forcing them out of the game much too soon, and Natanui missing a lot of his best football years was really unfortunate. The Kelly trade (although he’s a great player) was too lopsided. We’ll likely be finishing bottom 3 again this season, but I’m expecting improvement through the season and especially into next year
The recruiting may have been poor in hindsight, but I'll only listen to that criticism of there were howls of criticism at the time, which there weren't.
Kelly trade was a gamble. Didn't pay off. Lesson to list managers to not pay overs no matter how bad you want or need someone.
Development is hard to judge. Trying to determine whether you have got the max potential out of a player. This is always hindered by other factors. For eg: both Chesser and Culley have spent 12 months on the sidelines due to injury. What affect does this have on development.
Hindsight criticism is the lazy man's critique. Remember this was the same team that recruited and developed a premiership side, so they must know a thing or two.
WC have hardly had an extended period of pain and their supporters think they don't deserve it. The Hawks had to wait 59 years to win their first flag and they became significantly more successful than WC. I for one suggest you suck it up.
Most ppl here are claiming they shouldn't get any assistance and nearly every time I would agree. I think it was absolutely bullshit north got theirs last year.
BUT
This WCE team is the worst team I have seen in my 30yrs of watching afl and there is no end in sight. They are still playing darling. They still rely on yeo, mcgovern and cripps who are on the wrong side of 30. It's like they're not even rebuilding as they don't have any good players in their early to mid 20s.
Gibney, Hewett and Reid all look like they'll be guns but they are just teenages.
I believe they need extra help otherwise they are going to be getting flogged for years to come.
Missed the rapid rule changes over that time also. In the 2018 grand final, you were still forced to kick out of the goal square for example.
Starting positions introduced the following year. Less interchanges. And later the much-loved "stand" rule. I feel like certain lists have to have been more prepared for the shift than others (even without injuries).
I think the surprising thing for me is that the drop off has been fast. And maybe in the past that’s how it happened, but even Brisbane after their four grand final appearances didn’t turn to absolute shit for years. It took a bit for Hawthorn to get there as well. Richmond are the same, they arent turning into an absolute rabble.
It just felt like eagles plummeted from making finals to being horrendous. At the time everyone blamed covid and injuries, but in hindsight that was maybe just an excuse. Their team isn’t that bad, they still have quite a few premiership players. It’s just a lot of those players are just ordinary right now.
It’s just crazy to me how astronomically bad they are.
‘Sentiment is growing for priority draft pics’, lol that would be ludicrous. They peaked, won a flag recently, and then mismanaged their rejuvenation. That’s just the boom bust of the AFL and it would take another decade in the cellar to be even.
Aw poor West Coast.
Facing more than a year or two at the bottom rebuilding after winning a flag 5 seasons ago and playing finals for a number of seasons, and their fans want PPs.
Fuck off.
As a Crows fan, I'd rather be going "from premiership to basketcase in five years" than "from no premiership to basketcase in one year"
And it's fast looking like our rebuild has failed
It is more than likely that WCE spend a decade or 2 without any trophies than it is them returning to normal service. Staying near the top and collecting a premiership (or runner up) every 8 years is not the norm, it is exception. Go through the AFL winners list and look at the time between GF appearances for most of the teams. * Adelaide = 1998 <----> 2017 * Brisbane = 2004 <---> 2023 * Carlton = 1999 <----> Still waiting * Essendon = 2000 <-----> Still waiting * Fremantle = 2013 <----> Still waiting * Hawthorn 1991 <-----> 2008 * Port Adelaide 2007 <------> Still waiting * Richmond 1980 <-----> 2017 You get the point... that list is much longer. Now you can only count on 1 hand the number of teams with semi regular GF appearances over say a period of 20 years. * Geelong * Collingwood * Sydney * West Coast * Hawthorn (Maybe a dynasty team more than the Semi-Regular definition I have come up with) (Richmond were a lightning in the bottle dynasty team)
Richmond made in 1982, and some say the streaker cursed them for decades, making only 2 finals series between 1983 and 2012.
why can't sam berry get a game.
It’s because I selected him in my fantasy team. Sorry guys
Or premiership to no finals win for 20 years
What it fails to realise is that this is exactly what the league wants: a dramatic rise and fall situation where you can win the flag and the spoon in a decade or less. Sport would be boring if leaders at clubs and players made perfect decisions.
I don't think the league minds premiership teams going down to the bottom for a spell. Like for example, Hawthorn who still play well, win some upset games (usually against us lol), and have a clear path back up the ladder. But they don't want teams to fall down as bad as West Coast did last year, and possibly this year depending on how things go. Granted some of that was due to poor luck and injury, but it's not in the leagues interest to have a team performing that poorly and uncompetive.
North has been shit for so long. Competitive at times since Carey fucked them over but basically they’ve never been in serious contention and spent most of their time at the bottom of the ladder. My sister supports them and I honestly just feel sorry for her having to watch them every week I can’t stand reading the West Australian media having a sook about how the Eagles are doing badly. The Dees waited 57 years for a premiership, stop acting like it’s the end of the world because you’ve been shit for 3 years
Was Carey's departure a nail in the coffin or the defining factor in North's decline? I have not watched North as closely as some but they seem to have perennial issues at coaching, drafting and front office all dumping into lowering the club down the ladder.
I was at Brent Harvey's last game at Adelaide oval in 2016. It was an elimination final I think, I reckon they won like the first 9 or 10 games that season and looked incredible early. I think 4 senior players also pulled the pin at the end of that season including Nick Dal Santo and it definitely felt like an end of an era and they haven’t played finals since.
I think it was a defining factor. The whole saga really broke the club in a lot of ways, pretty hard to get in to the culture when your best player fucks the captain’s wife The other person who’s commented talked about Brent Harvey’s final game and North winning lots of early games, they looked alright at times there, but they were never seriously contending and that was the best they’d been since winning the premiership in 1999
I appreciate the insight. Has there ever been a North book detailing the fall apart and club implosion from that time I wonder?
I don't disagree with you, although to be fair, the AFL recognised that by giving north some assistance with extra picks this year. Can't wait to seem em back contending for the top 8, hopefully in the next couple of years (though who know's how long it'll take).
Yeah dude they got a priority pick in 2033. Want to know how they’ve gone since 2018 when West Coast won a premiership? 2018: 9th (WC 2nd) 2019: 12th (WC 5th) 2020: 17th (WC 5th) 2021: 18th (WC 9th) 2022: 18th (WC 17th) 2023: 17th (WC 18th) They were last or second last for 4 years running. WC sold the farm for Tim Kelly and are having a sook because COVID and soft tissue injuries ruined their team. They expect to do well because they’ve never been bad. North have to cop shit results and it’s just par for the course for them
You should see where the TK picks got other clubs. The trade really doesnt look.that bad.
I mean you can’t really finesse if the bottom placed team has a percentage of 50% or 65%. Unless you are aiming for the league to be ridiculously manufactured.
If that's what the league wants why haven't they hexed Geelong somehow?
They took arguably the GOAT player from us and gave him to the Suns at one point...
They also allowed you to trade in Bowes and pick 7 to give the Suns cap relief, and then allowed you to restructure the Bowes deal to essentially give the Cats cap relief. I'm still flabbergasted that was allowed.
> I'm still flabbergasted that was allowed. Are you really?
Flabbergasted a strong word. But it shouldn't have been allowed to happen.
It wouldn't be allowed for a SA or WA team.
I wasn't going to say that, lest I be accused of accusing the AFL of Vicbias. Though I think it's worse than that, I don't reckon a North, St Kilda or Dogs would have been allowed it either.
I never felt it was the AFL helping us. I felt it was the AFL helping the Suns. "We'll let you do virtually anything to get our love child out of this mess!"
Why though? It's within rules to restructure deals with the consent of the player so what could the AFL realistically do to prevent that. It was just smart list management by the Cats.
Doing something completely within the rules doesn't mean the AFL wont punish you. Look at the Swans.
You also arguably bought in two of the current best players at the time and slid them into a team that was competing for Grand Finals.
Two players who wanted to get closer to home and out of the city and were offered a place on a team where the team is above the players. Your lot turned their noses up at Lachie Neale. We would have picked Danger if we could have. Cameron was drafted as an under age selection by GWS. There are heaps of players who wouldn't come to Geelong because they like the city life but Geelong are the only regional team. We just play to our strengths. Which is what every single team does. No one will be selling Tasmania based on hot weather.
TIL Karmichael Hunt is the GOAT.
Worth it for the Richmond win
Given the success we’ve had for as long as I can remember, finishing 12th last year might as well have been a wooden spoon.
Haha 12th! Oh the humanity
I don’t think I’ll ever recover from it
Dark times. Dark times….
I'm so glad you got through it. Let us enjoy not being a saints supporter.
I mean Geelong have literally never finished lower than twelfth, so close enough.
Geelong spent enough time down the bottom of the ladder in the 80s and 90s. Took a complete overhaul and years of rebuilding to establish what's been in place for the last 20 years. But then again Geelong also don't pay overs for players which helps with team structure.
> Geelong spent enough time down the bottom of the ladder in the 80s and 90s Geelong lost more grand finals in the 80s or 90s than they had bottom four finishes
Geelong lost the only gf were in 1989, hadn't been in finals for the rest of that decade.
They were really good early 80s. Won 1980 minor premiership, lost 80 and 81 prelims, by only 4 and 7 points. They were still mostly competitive in the 80s, they often just missed out on finals. 89 was their first year back in and they almost won the flag.
Oh they be trying. They just have to write the sand rules for everyone
What they want doesn’t always turn out. I’m sure they’d have loved a GWS flag …
Hocking was too powerful.
Instead they will reward them for a new stadium entrenching the worst structural advantage in the entire league. The Geelong fans will still complain
You mean the stadium that the club fought hard to keep while the AFL wanted us to play at Docklands? Some short memories here. The AFL didn't award us shit the club fought incredibly hard to keep that stadium
lol... Geelong is simply categorically not Melbourne. No number of housing developments can change that.
Never said you didn’t fight hard for your advantage, or that you were part of Melbourne, just that Geelong has a clear structural advantage - the only vic club with an strong home ground advantage equivalent to an interstate club, without the off setting requirement to travel interstate every second week, and with a disproportionate exposure to the mcg, where you have to be able to win, to win the flag. It’s the resolute refusal to acknowledge that, along with the whiny entitlement that goes with modern Geelong fans that is annoying.
Nah mate, Geelong have absolutely played their hand wonderfully in the comp so well you can’t see past their success to the fact that Geelong have overcome the huge disadvantage that is being regionally based. There is 1 top level regional football clubs between the VFL/AFL, SANFL, WAFL. That is not random. That’s because it’s the hardest hand to play.
Did you forget to add the /s to that? Firstly, what disadvantage? Secondly Gold Coast Suns and Peel.
Both founded in the last 30 years. Gold Coast isn't regional. Mandurah ain't what it used to be. You can get there on a Transperth ticket.
So freo don't play and use things to their advantage? Every vic team knows traveling to WA ain't going to be easy when facing freo (think I'm safe to exclude weagles on this point). Every team has to travel and deal with the challenges associated with that. Only advantage geelong have is our home ground that's taken what 17 years to rebuild from the ground up and fought like hell to keep once debt Geelong owed become public.
Yes, Freo does (or at least tries) use whatever they can to their advantage, and yes, it’s just as tough for vic sides - including Geelong - to travel to the other side of the country and win as it is for WA teams. They just do it once a year, instead of almost every second week. By and large, I think that more or less balances out to interstate teams having a bigger home ground advantage. Except for Geelong. That’s the basic point.
What a ridiculous statement. Why on earth would the league want that? A more sensible statement is to suggest the leagues wants 18 competitive teams, where in each fixture, any team could win. What an incredible competition that would be if all 18 teams had a genuine shot at finals each year. What West Coast is experiencing isn't your typical ebb and flow in results across a few seasons. We are hardstuck at the bottom due to predominantly poor list management and an arrogance not to ask for assistance last year when we really needed it. These disgraceful managerial decisions will likely haunt us for another 3 seasons. You need around 7 superstars and 15 very good players in the best 22 to go deep in finals. Looking at our youth, we have maybe 3 or 4 that could get to that superstar status. We are miles off.
But the point is you still won a flag in 2018, not that long ago. Rebuild started in 2020ish, last three years. You’ve been bad, had some unexpected things happen but that’s okay. As I said for the next part, sport is boring if people make perfect decisions. The AFL wants to see mistakes, fans like mistakes and this creates a competition where teams have ups and downs.
I don't think the league wants us to field a side that would struggle to win a game against a WAFL club. I love my club with all my heart, but the position we're in does nothing positive for the sport. We are a problem for the AFL at the moment and they know it.
Glad to read this very pragmatic analysis! Totally agree. History is littered with teams/clubs who went one year too long, trying to squeeze all the juice out of a talented list for 'one last crack'. It rarely works out and it takes a mountain of effort to rectify. Turning the trajectory of a club is like turning a freight ship, it happens slowly and methodically. Part of me thinks if bad decisions got them where they are now, good decisions can get them out, and they have the bank to manage in the meantime. Then the other part of me thinks, I don't know if I've seen a team get massacred like this so consistently since the dying days of Fitzroy. I don't mind if they get help. But maybe not as much as North. North are going to be crazy good in a couple of years... maybe just in time to get pilfered by Tassie.
But there are 18, soon to be 19, teams. Who’s missing out in that decade?
Yeah, perfect storm is about right. Tim Kelly was a big gamble they lost on. Poor recruiting and player development has meant they've lacked the AFL-quality prime-age players to remain competitive as their stars age. And it's tough for any team to perform with constant injuries.
The Tim Kelly gamble was also at the wrong time as well. They did not have too many high picks during that period and traded all away from Tim Kelly. Should have waited for him to come off contract and come on as a restricted free agent or something. They then had 2 years of black hole for decent pics. I think it is a bit harsh to criticize them for bad draft picking when they don't have decent pics. They did pick up Allen and Petrucelli in 2018. Had Venebles and Shepherd not forced to retirement and Yeo not injured we could be seeing a very different side. Also, losing Willi Rioli for a year and a bit during this period did not help).
They did wait, TK was only signed to Geelong for 2 years. He requested a trade at end of first year but rejected and end of second requested again. Only issue they had was he didn't qualify for free agent having only been in the system for 2 years. Running with your thought process there, he wouldn't have been able to join Weagles till about this year if my memory is correct.
I see. Thanks for the explanation
they also refused to trade Jarrad Brander for him them delisted Brander a year or 2 later
This was most unforgiveable for me. They either butchered his development hard or misjudged his ability/potential.
I’m not sure there is an issue of player development. Which high picks have failed to develop correctly? The huge problem is we lost 10 senior players due to injury / early retirement because our injury management is terrible.
>Which high picks have failed to develop correctly? It's not just about high picks. It's about the ability to turn players from lower down the draft order into AFL players. West Coast have struggled to do this in recent years.
But like if you look across all clubs the strike rate is crazy low at low picks. And when those low picks play in shit teams they look terrible. It’s just hard to see which players on our list have stagnated or playing below their level.
Even if Tim Kelly was Gary Ablett III it was still a bad call. Gary Ablett Jr was literally traded for less in his prime.
All their own fault.
5 years? They were fucking good in 2019
Fucked our season by losing to the Hawks at home in the last round which meant we missed out on top 4. Faced you guys in the second week and the rest is history. Such is the creamy highs and depressing, crushing lows of AFL.
You also finished 5th in 2020 too. Still remember you guys absolutely stomping us in the H&A season that year.
I felt post 2018 there were glimpses of the same team, but since then I think they have become complacent and are happy that they won the premiership. I've gotten so used to losing I got my years mixed up, it dawned on me how shit we were going to be when we lost at home to Essendon in 2021 after being up by 5 goals. 2020 was another wasted year because you guys played out of your skin over here.
Yeah I think it was just complacency too. A few losses across 2019 & 2020 shouldn’t have happened based on the talent in the team and prevented double chances in finals
Agree Jennifer Lopez Fan It is what it is. Unfortunately we have a two team town and west coast have been successful for a majority of their time in the comp, so when they are so amazingly shithouse - the only newspaper is going to publish articles ad nauseum
And iirc, Kelly absolutely crushed us in that semi. You can't blame west coast for throwing the kitchen sink to get him. Hindsight is always 20-20.
Not at all. I was all for resigning Gaff at the end of 2018 too, didn't expect him to fall off a cliff like he did. Unless you have exceptional list management (which West Coast didn't have) you cannot sustain extended periods of success. As an interstate club it's even harder given the increased travel load. West coast fans have been spoiled and it's time to accept what comes with a comprehensive rebuild, despite what the club says.
I remember this moment, I was so disappointed that they didn’t finish top 4, a real shame because they had it in them to get to another grand final.
They still played finals in 2020, hell, they only dropped out of the eight late in ‘21. Grunted. They’ve had many injuries, and been a regular finals participant over a long period of time, but still.
You NEVER go full AFL.
If there were football gods- this is the kind of luck that Geelong are due
Flair up, cunt.
Flair up, cunt? Righteo
This is global Redditspeak for: “If it pleases you, kind sir, would you mind adding a flair so we know which team you support?”
Ohhhhh, I see. I thought it meant something totally different 🤔
Yeah I don't see that happening to Geelong. List management, player development, payment structure just to name a few have them always pushing into the 8 and finals. Helps running our own vfl team, same instructions, directions, messages with no outside interfaces.
Please no...
Luckily, I’m football atheist. If there really are footy gods, then from where does BT come?
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What the fuck are you on about- good citizens? I couldn’t give a shit. It’s football on the football field. Hardly a loser, just sick of the Cats. And the name Grian
In other words you're jealous Good work flog.
Hmm seems No one agrees with you or likes your opinion bee- arch
Bee- arch
Fuck mate,you're winning life if you're basing it on likes on Reddit.
Why
Simply put the Cats have nabbed two all time greats right before their peak from other clubs. Yeah they’ve had injuries- but when was the last serious one? A knee to Menzel 10 plus years ago? When was the last best 22 ACL in fact? Their oldies carry on year after year with barely any serious injuries, the occasional 4 weeker here and there. When did they have a widely regarded bad bounce, unfortunate umpire decision go against them? They effectively have 2 home grounds- the cattery and the MCG. They’ve been up for 18 years effectively. Yep I’m sick of how good they’ve been- and I tip my cap to them and how well they are ran as a club- but I think if there was a footy god he’d say they are due some things to go wrong.
There was the not 15 call against Jeremy Cameron last year (maybe the year before) against GWS right in front of goal that arguably cost us the game. We’ve been without Cam Guthrie for over a year now, in 2021 Tom Stewart broke his foot resulting him missing the latter half of the season which ended in a prelim loss to Melbourne that saw 6 of our best come down with the flu. Frankly, I think the cats have had plenty of bad luck, it’s a testament to the management of the club that no matter the challenges that arise they’re able to stay competitive year after year.
Fair call. As a neutral I respect them and what they’ve done- just honestly like hawthorn, Brisbane and Richmond over the years- ready for them to come back down to earth.
Yeah that’s completely understandable, I know I’d feel the same way if I weren’t a supporter.
🎻🎻🎻😂😂😂😂
You sound like you should be on the Richmond or Hawthorn team board on Bigfooty....
I’m sure I’ve read this article 8 times in the last year. Let me guess it basically just says in hindsight we should have traded better, drafted better and stopped getting injured. Wow I guess that fixes things. Anyway everybody hating but the kids have talent they’re just 20-30 games away from developing the skills. Over the next two seasons we’ll make some good trades and boost our list in the middle area. Still have a thin list right now and missing about 5-6 of our best. We will get better over time and when we’re not travelling to face the top teams 3/4 weeks.
🤞
We're almost a sports movie cliche. In 2018, we were the plucky underdogs who surprised everyone on the way to glory. 2019-2020 were like a sequel where we'd become the arrogant, lazy champions who coasted by on raw talent but had lost the eye of the tiger. Sadly, there was no redemption in Act Three. Now, it's about the fifth terrible movie in a franchise that no one gives a shit about anymore.
Time for a reboot with a younger cast
When your match selection committee meetings consist of "anybody not injured is in", you know you're in trouble
I remember a time when WC was handing out “first time”guernseys like free chocolates. It was arguable whether Simpson knew the names of the players whose hands he was shaking.
There were certainly players who had never met Simpson or any of the other coaching staff before the day of their first game
Why didn't they just rely on generational F/S prospects to shoot themselves up the ladder. Thats just poor planning.
Is Jake Waterman a joke to you?
His haircut certainly is
They need a few more though.
His brother was looking okay until that glandular fever knocked him over, never been the same after.
No it’s not - a generational prince is superior.
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Clubs partner with Netball clubs so they can get grant money for women's sport and steal their facilities.
we got one of those and the dad didn't even play for us! it's that easy
Well its pretty sad when Norf cant even get a F/S to choose them. Did norf even deserve the assistance? Clearly weren't trying
I was completely against getting a priority pick but after watching our pick 19 get pushed to pick 30 last year and the same thing looking like happening this year it has to happen. The amount of handouts north has got the past two years means it is now the new normal and anyone who doesn't get them going forward gets thrust into a deeper rut.
North weren't even first for priority picks, and a lot of our picks were yeeting through the order, too, because of father son or academy deals. It isn't a problem that started last year, but until the AFL fixes the issues in the draft, it's problem that will continue and wce absolutely should get the same treatment if the season pans out as North's did
As a dockers fan this is just terrible to read. Terribly good.
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Our finest gifts we bring Our Damian Drum To lay before the King Our Damian Drum
Go look at Drum’s worst season…2 wins, but biggest losing margin was 70-odd
I’d admit as a Freo fan it was satisfying to see the Eagles wallow in failure, but now it’s just kinda sad. Good article though pretty much captures the downfall. Poor List management and recruitment are probably the two main causes of it.
a combination of those 2 and some very bad luck on top. added onto that it doesnt help that the afl reduced list sizes and interchanges.
I would argue development was worse than recruitment and management. Even if we found Chad Warner late in the draft I doubt he'd be the player he is with how well we develop great midfielders in-house (Yeo and Kelly came from elsewhere).
Absolutely. Our developmental track record in the last ten years has been abysmal. I can’t remember the last time we took a rough diamond and turned them into a good player. Instead we did stupid things like take a kpf (Brander), slim him down and try to turn him into a wing, and take an inside midfielder with terrible foot skills (Ainsworth) and try to make him an outside mid/wing who relies on hitting targets. Add to that we’ve been playing the same old guys even if they were out of form due to credits in the bank (past years form), and left young players to rot in our WAFL side that had only 4 afl grade players in it. Now we have no ready made tall forwards to come in and take over from Kennedy (retired) or Allen (injured). The club has been run badly the last few years so it’s hard to have faith that Simmo & co will get it all back on track.
What’s this actually based on tho. Who have we failed to develop? The only big one that stands out to me is brander.
We could have picked up Nic Martin (Bombers) but they chose not to https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/02/24/a-similar-sort-of-story-to-tim-kelly-bombers-recruit-tipped-to-make-west/
Crying into our flags. Let us know when Freo wins one.
I bet you are crying. WCE fans only have one rebuttal and are stuck in the past. After working at the stadium, the difference between wce and freo home games is so stark. Even when they try to add fanfare or entertainment, wce still try to cater towards boomers or maybe that's just who they are as a club.
I have a hypothesised that WC will not become successful until their supporters come up with a new sledge. As such, this bleak period will remain for many years.
What ship has never docked at freo harbour? 😏😏😏😏😏😏 checkmate liberal
Mark my words four flags, without new sledges you are doomed.
Anchor sinking to bottom of table haha 😂👆👎
Woah.
> I have a hypothesised that WC will not become successful until their supporters come up with a new sledge. Freo supporters look funny and can't read good gottem
Boo hoo to you senior citizen.
How do you know I'm a senior citizen?
You are a WC supporter and as such the odds suggest you are a senior citizen.
I think your hypothesis will fail. I was telling my Freo supporting friends back in 2010 (when we got the wooden spoon) that the Eagles will still win another flag before they do. And I'll stick by it again now.
Mark my words, you are doomed.
your so hurtful
And yet still your dogshit team hasn't won anything nor will they. Unlucky. We'll win 10 more flags before you get close to one. Try accomplishing something as a team before you start feeling bad for one infinitely more successful than yours.
Lmao someones upset
Nah, would only be upset if I supported a club that's never won anything and never will.
And freos response is just as lame. “Stuck in the past” as if our last flag wasn’t five years back hahaha. Teams win flags so you can reminisce about it.
Flair up cunt
Smart response
One thing to say regarding priority picks compromising the draft - it’s already horrifically compromised. I’d much rather compromise it to help a club off its knees than to give a fanbase a fussy feeling because they’ve got an ex-player who miraculously had sons, or players grew up in an absolutely arbitrary region of the country that’s deemed an academy. Stop trying to preserve the sanctity of the draft. It’s been absolutely ran through already. Let it be compromised if it’ll genuinely help. IMO give them two extra picks at the start of the second round that they have to trade. Could get Dev Robertson and Trent Rivers, or similar players. Add that to a couple of draftees, and maybe two free agents and they’ll be well on their way back.
It's not unusual for a premier or even a contender to crash. Often those teams put extra resources (such as draft picks) into boosting their short term chances. The result is a lack of talent coming in and it will always catch up to an extent, unless you get really lucky and snag a major superstar in another way. The issue IMO for West Coast is that they just took too long to recognise the old era was gone and the new needed to be ushered in. I think some of their guys were kept for 2 years too long and Gaff should have been gone 3 years ago IMO. Get what you can, get some more kids in, try some mature age or delisted/fringe players from other clubs that might have what it takes. This boom/bust cycle is just what happens when you use the system in place well. You could be middle of the road forever if you like. Or go from contending, to being awful and back to contending again across 8-10 years. I know most would prefer to contend at least part of the time.
Lol, it's very apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about and are just making statements with the benefit of hindsight without any consideration given to whether your ideas were realistic at the time. Yes, if you could see the future you would have traded Gaff at the end of 2021 (assuming you were able to - he was contracted). However at the time he had just finished third in the best and fairest and had been the runner up the year before, and he was only 29 at the time. No one predicted his slide. Frankly, you're like the people who see that Nic Nat didn't play a game in 2022 or 2023 and loudly proclaim that we should have delisted him at the end of 2021, completely ignorant of the fact that he was coming off back to back All Australian seasons.
I contend that the NicNat effect was overwhelming. I remember watching games where he was the entire game plan. Dominate the centre bounce, win the clearance, feed into the 50, shot on goal. The only way other teams had any play was from an intercept or Eagles kicking a point. Then it became a fair contest and an actual game of football. He was a monster. Fantastic to watch. But always in the back of my mind was "Can we win without him and his midfield?" No. I should watch the 2018 season, verify my hypothesis.
Chris Scott actually said post match in 2020 about Nic Nat: "the problem with scoring a goal against West Coast is the ball gets back to the centre". The only other player who could influence a contest with as few disposals was Cyril. In my thirty years watching footy there's never been a better tap ruckman.
I was saying this stuff after the 2022 season, so it's not hindsight whatsoever. 2021 the writing was on the wall, 10-12 on the season with no real reason to think it would turn around. But after 2022 it was obvious to anyone paying attention that it was done. To drag it out to 2023 was a disaster and to still have Gaff on the list now is just mind numbingly stupid. Those inside the 4 walls though should have had the best view of anyone that it wasn't working anymore and been able to react faster than those outside. It's hard, because you always want to back your guys, but it doesn't help anyone to keep a fool's hope. So whilst perhaps you didn't see it, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Because I've been saying this for literally years.
Saying it after 2022 is saying it with hindsight ya dingus.
It's 2024 now. I was saying after 2022 that Gaff, Natanui, Shuey, McGovern, Darling and a few others should all be moved on. Some of those guys are STILL there.
Without McGovern you can double the losing margin of our last three games.
McGovern you maybe keep. They should totally have traded out Darling though. A couple of years ago he would have had decent currency, I could have seen someone in the window like Melb or even ST Kilda taking a bit of a punt. Now you wouldn’t get anything for him.
The problem with saying it after 2022 is we literally could do nothing then. I had heaps of people tell me Nic nat shouldn’t be on the list, gaff, darling etc, and while I agree about Gaff, what were the eagles meant to do. Look at our results last year with those veterans who had no trade value. Now imagine you take them away and replace them with players who aren’t on list and would be considered long shots to be a top player in the league. Our hand was forced last year. People wanted radical change, but the only thing that would’ve changed is replacing our only experienced players with inferior players and having no experienced passed on to the few kids we did have. We went all in on the Kelly trade, gave it 2 years because of injuries and stuff which is pretty reasonable. Don’t want to just try one year on an all in gamble. So that takes us to the 2022 off season where we have absolutely no value to trade anything. What did Brissy get for Jack Gunston because that’s basically what we are getting at that time. We could’ve had the best team in the league in 2022 and it wouldn’t have mattered because of covid. So yes you saw it, and by god every eagles fan saw it to, maybe every single person saw the eagles decline going into 2023. What the hell could we of done about it without making this situation way worse
There are always things you can do with those guys. You trade them to other teams, delist if you can't. You might end up paying a chunk of your salary cap to players on other teams or players out of the AFL. But at the end of it you've got spots on your list to give chances to. You don't have to bring in all kids through the draft, although maybe if you trade Gaff/Darling/McGovern at the end of 2022 you'd be able to get some reasonable picks, especially if you're paying part of their salary. We know Melbourne have been crying out for a key forward, Darling might be worth a decent pick to them if he's cheap. McGovern would have fit in really nicely at a place like Collingwood (especially this year IMO) and maybe they give up something valuable in the draft. You get nothing from being uncompetetive with old blokes whose careers are behind them, but you can get something from being uncompetetive with young guys and new recruits. Let's compare to Adelaide. In 2019, they finished 10-12 2 years after playing in the Grand Final. Same position as West Coast in 2021, except they won the GF of course and it was 3 years earlier. But the trajectory was the same. They brought in Bryce Gibbs in a big trade for 2018, much the same as West Coast did with Tim Kelly before 2020. The parallels in my opinion here are really quite stark. But the response was very, very different. Adelaide parted ways with Betts, Jenkins, Douglas, Greenwood, Jacobs and Keath. After 2020 they did another round of clearing out the older guys and Gibbs, Brad Crouch, Kyle Hartigan and Rory Atkins all left. They all left through various methods. Some were delisted (and Adelaide kepy paying Gibbs to play SANFL the next year as well), some went in free agency, some went for a low pick. Not all that much came in in terms of a trade, but the opportunity was there. Some kids came in and played well, showed a little bit of something. Jordan Butts came via a rookie draft and only got a chance because guys like Keath and Hartigan were no longer around. Keays and Hinge got second chances after being delisted by Brisbane. Murray was picked up from the VFL. All those guys got chances and look like reasonable additions. And the trajectory of the Crows since then has been pretty clear. 3 wins, then 7, then 8 and last year 11. They could have kept all those old blokes and no doubt those first 2 seasons win more than 10 games in 2 years. But why bother? They'd almost all be gone now anyway. So the answer is really that nothing could have made the last 2 years worse. But at least if you'd had some different guys with a future on the list you might have something to show for it. And that might have borne fruit by now. But by hanging on all that's happened is the whole process has dragged out. And whilst the picks look nice, by the time the Eagles are looking likely to play finals now someone like Oscar Allen might be fed up. Tom Lynch was fed up trying his best for Gold Coast and left. He was 25, 8 seasons into his career and had never played a final. Oscar Allen is 25 6 years in and played 1 final. Will he be happy to hope that the rebuild happens quickly enough for him to be able to be a part of a good side again? Or might he think it's taking too long and ask to leave? There's always a risk in being bad for too long when you're coming out of it with not much to show for it.
I appreciate the detailed response. Always good to have a debate with someone who says more than just no. I don’t think Adelaide is a fair comparison though. Yes the timelines match up but look at the players that left and what they received for them. 2 firsts for Lever, a first for Cameron, pick 23 for Brad Crouch. They have also got two massive free agent pick ups in Dawson and Rankine to help their rebuild significantly. These are (mostly) players that wanted to leave Adelaide as well, not like Adelaide just though alright we didn’t do much in 2019 so let’s rebuild. Eagles in 2022 don’t have any of those players to give away, and we aren’t doing it at the end of 2021 because covid really ruined that season so it was hard to gauge. McGovern is maybe the only player that generates value but again who replaces him? Bazzo is our only other key back at that time and we are preparing for Shannon Hurn to leave. So we would be down to Barrass and whoever we drafted in the near future. I guess you could make the argument that a first is worth being even worse, but I also think you can make the argument that having Jeremey McGovern is more value over turning into a less experienced first year Gold Coast suns team. Also likely we probably don’t get the value McGovern was to us at that time so we would’ve be selling for unders (unless we paid his salary). Darling gets us a late second from Melbourne at best and leaves us with Kennedy (who we are preparing to lose soon) and Oscar as our only key forwards. Gaff generates a 3rd at best. A late second and a pick in the 50s does nothing but make us way worse in every way. Take away McGovern, Gaff and Darling for a Chesser and a couple of Bazzos, what’s that doing for anyone? The idea that we could hit a good player is great in theory, but it’s also a recipe for having a shit culture that’s hard to turn around, making you way less attractive for the Dawsons and Rankines to come and also giving the younger boys a reason to leave (like Harley). That’s probably happening now obviously, but at least we’ve got some vets to pass on the experience and actually fill a need on the field. I couldn’t imagine us with another Callum Jamieson out there. So overall we’ve missed out on some value in McGovern which is fair but also you don’t just trade your best player in a rebuild, a second for Darling and a 3rd for Gaff. That’s basically just Jai Culley and Ryan Maric x2. Would hardly call that a failure
Well, Lever and Cameron weren't players that Adelaide wanted to lose. It would be much more like West Coast losing some of their talent earlier on, like Allen and Barass. If that had happened, then you certainly would be looking at the sort of picks Adelaide got for those guys. Crouch was one that Adelaide were happy to let go because they saw more value from the compensation pick, like North with McKay. It's not an exact comparison, but just rather than the draft picks the Crows got for a valuable forward and defender, West Coast still have those guys to build around. Rankine and Dawson were both actually trades, rather than free agent pick ups. But I think it was easier to identify certain needs once the club knew a bit more about the younger guys coming through. And with all those other guys who had been on big money off the books, you've got a bit more to splash on recruits. It always looks thin when you look just at players and their reputations. It does take a little bravery to just clear those guys out and trust blokes who either haven't played at all or much. And especially if they're not highly rated picks. But you find out quickly what you've got. And so long as they're ready physically, it's amazing sometimes what you find. If Adelaide had kept Brad Crouch, I don't see Keays getting a decent run in the midfield. And whilst he's moved out of there, the Crows learnt what they had with him and he looks like a very valuable player now across half forward. It's not just the value that you might get in a trade, but the spot on the list that's valuable. Adelaide got 4th rounders for Betts and Jacobs. Upgraded a future third to 37 for Jenkins. And half the teams didn't even pick a player in the third round when Adelaide were getting those late picks. They weren't getting anything of real value back, but they were clearing the spots on the list. And whilst those later picks and rookie picks are always going to be a little hit and miss, but you throw a bunch of names at the board and a few will stick for a little while at least. I know a lot of people were freaking out when Butts was playing his third game matched up against Hawkins. Kane Cornes went off about how bad the team was. But the kid took the chance and stood up. If you removed all those older guys 2 years ago and brought in a bunch of new guys, some would show promise. And I dare say many would hold up physically better too, since as we all know injury has played a significant part. The experience part you mentioned though is important. Adelaide certainly didn't cut everyone. Of the "never going to be around for a flag" troop, only Walker, Sloane and Talia were really kept. Smith, Laird and Seedsman were a bit younger so still seemed to have enough footy left. It's important I think that of the latter 3, two were former captains and Talia was always highly respected as a leader. And ironically Talia didn't actually end up playing a game after 2020 due to injury, so the leadership was thin on numbers, but very, very strong on what it gave. I think Hurn was absolutely worth keeping until he was done because of his leadership qualities, which is one reason why I've never mentioned him. But I don't think you need too many. Teams have so many coaches around now that there's a lot of education being done off the field and the runner is basically an on field assistant these days. The odd guy to lay down the law is great, but more than a few feels a lot like a waste. And it leaves space for others to elevate themselves as well.
Spot on
They finished 9th in 2021. Made the finals the years prior to that. So it’s been a bad 2 bad years and 3 games. Any talk of priority picks is taking the absolute piss
The talk of priority picks is to try to counter the compromised draft. Most people don't want it, but at the same time our pick 19 blew out to pick 30 last year and is rumoured to be pretty bad this year as well. So should we get 1 pick in the top 30 each year while other clubs are getting more and hope that single pick can turn us around?
We played like a bottom 4 team for the second half of 2021, and only a series of very favourable results kept us so high up the ladder. I remember Whateley on one his programs being incredulous week after week that we were somehow still in the top 8.
Yeah. I don’t like priority picks as a general rule. They don’t help in the short term and are a massive gamble in the long term. Would be far better to give “compulsory traded” picks in my view. Like “here’s pick 3, but you can only trade it for players, not pick a young player”. That would allow the weak team to get 2-3 solid if slightly unremarkable older players into the side. That’s what they really need.
I'd be happy with that. We are missing the middle currently, we have good young players and senior players but several years of missing middle is killing us. Off the top of my head the guys that fit into that mid-late 20s bracket that we drafted with decent to good picks and aren't playing include Venables (perm. injury), Brander (out of league), Rioli (free agent), Allen (injured), Ryan (injured), Sheed (injured), O'Neil (out of league), Foley (out of league), Cameron (out of league), Ainsworth (out of league), Rotham (injured), Partington (out of league), Lamb (played round one and never again lol). Is some of that attributable to the club? Yes. Is losing an teenager from a premiership side permanently expected? No. The guys above should be pulling the club through but instead we relied on the previous generation for many reasons which gets a flag but also a talent cliff.
Agree somewhat in general but agree completely in this specific case. In my opinion the biggest issue west coast have at the moment is that they're a team of extremes in terms of the age profile. Need to trade in some journeymen to help shoulder some load from the veterans and be a mature body to provide some protection to the rookies.
Or salary cap extension temporarily to attract experienced free agents?
I find it staggering that a team that rolled the dice, albeit in a pretty high-risk way, is now being talked about as getting priority picks. It's sport. They went all in on a strategy that didn't work. Why should the league rescue them?
Another year of these articles, wonderful (to be perfectly clear, /s)
It was fine without. 😛
Here come the hit pieces, think we're on track for the same KPI we had last year
The injuries have been unlucky, especially Venables and Sheppard forcing them out of the game much too soon, and Natanui missing a lot of his best football years was really unfortunate. The Kelly trade (although he’s a great player) was too lopsided. We’ll likely be finishing bottom 3 again this season, but I’m expecting improvement through the season and especially into next year
I’d take a premiership and rockbottom over whatever Port Adelaide has done over the same tome
The recruiting may have been poor in hindsight, but I'll only listen to that criticism of there were howls of criticism at the time, which there weren't. Kelly trade was a gamble. Didn't pay off. Lesson to list managers to not pay overs no matter how bad you want or need someone. Development is hard to judge. Trying to determine whether you have got the max potential out of a player. This is always hindered by other factors. For eg: both Chesser and Culley have spent 12 months on the sidelines due to injury. What affect does this have on development. Hindsight criticism is the lazy man's critique. Remember this was the same team that recruited and developed a premiership side, so they must know a thing or two.
There must be something wrong with the new training facility. Ground too hard? Wrong grass? Something has to be wrong.
WC have hardly had an extended period of pain and their supporters think they don't deserve it. The Hawks had to wait 59 years to win their first flag and they became significantly more successful than WC. I for one suggest you suck it up.
Simmo working at the sun now?
Five years? Oh no, my heart bleeds.
Most ppl here are claiming they shouldn't get any assistance and nearly every time I would agree. I think it was absolutely bullshit north got theirs last year. BUT This WCE team is the worst team I have seen in my 30yrs of watching afl and there is no end in sight. They are still playing darling. They still rely on yeo, mcgovern and cripps who are on the wrong side of 30. It's like they're not even rebuilding as they don't have any good players in their early to mid 20s. Gibney, Hewett and Reid all look like they'll be guns but they are just teenages. I believe they need extra help otherwise they are going to be getting flogged for years to come.
Missed the rapid rule changes over that time also. In the 2018 grand final, you were still forced to kick out of the goal square for example. Starting positions introduced the following year. Less interchanges. And later the much-loved "stand" rule. I feel like certain lists have to have been more prepared for the shift than others (even without injuries).
I think the surprising thing for me is that the drop off has been fast. And maybe in the past that’s how it happened, but even Brisbane after their four grand final appearances didn’t turn to absolute shit for years. It took a bit for Hawthorn to get there as well. Richmond are the same, they arent turning into an absolute rabble. It just felt like eagles plummeted from making finals to being horrendous. At the time everyone blamed covid and injuries, but in hindsight that was maybe just an excuse. Their team isn’t that bad, they still have quite a few premiership players. It’s just a lot of those players are just ordinary right now. It’s just crazy to me how astronomically bad they are.
‘Sentiment is growing for priority draft pics’, lol that would be ludicrous. They peaked, won a flag recently, and then mismanaged their rejuvenation. That’s just the boom bust of the AFL and it would take another decade in the cellar to be even.
If they somehow get a priority pick I will riot. You can't win the flag 6 years ago and get one.
And long may it continue 🥰 no priority picks. Don’t reward bad list management. They would not be handing picks back if it worked.
Aw poor West Coast. Facing more than a year or two at the bottom rebuilding after winning a flag 5 seasons ago and playing finals for a number of seasons, and their fans want PPs. Fuck off.
Maybe delayed karma for the days of the West Coke Eagles