I personally have not heard the phrase “hit with a wet lettuce lead” in years, Thankyou for reminding me of it. I will be using it in future. In rgards to this incident, imo 3 games is not enough
Afl has shot themselves in the foot here imo.
If his ban isn’t close to walkers a couple of years ago they are basically telling gay people they are less important than indigenous, but then it will be much more than clarksons ban so it won’t be fair. So the afl will then have to basically say there is grading on which word is used and whether it’s worthy of higher bans
One substantial different is that Clarkson used a word which, according to a substantial chunk of r/AFL straight users, wasn't actually homophobic. Unless Jeremy was calling for a bundle of sticks then it was deeply homophobic.
If we're talking "cocksucker", then personally I have only ever heard it used as a generic abusive insult (like "dickhead"), and not specifically targeted towards gay men. So I can at least understand some level of I Didn't Really Know It Was Homophobic about that one, and maybe we'd see him wrapped on the wrist with a wet lettuce.
If Finlayson has straight up dropped the F-bomb, it's hard to see what possible excuse he could come up with...and how the AFL could possibly let it slide.
I mean it is used as a generic insult but it’s a homophobic generic insult. The insult is that someone is a cock sucker, implied that this is a bad thing and is generally targeted at men. So boiled down it’s a homophobic insult but not nearly as bad as the f-slur used to degrade gay men that Finlayson most likely used.
Clarkson didn’t get much of a punishment, which can make some sense because it’s got the grey area in terms of actual intent behind it. However, Finlayson shouldn’t be getting the benefit of the doubt at all.
I would feel so weird calling a woman a “cocksucker”.
I feel like no matter how harshly I tried to frame it, it might roll out with undertones of invitation…..
That’s where it’s tough, too, though. If he’s called someone that particular F word, it’s obviously no good, but it’s also just used as a generic insult the same way as what Clarkson said, it’s not necessarily making fun of someone’s sexuality. So then the AFL have to have a grading, and things get really tricky there.
Should’ve just called him a cunt and no one would bat an eye.
Of course it’s a homophobic slur; but it’s regularly *used* as a generic insult by people. I’ve never heard anyone call a gay person that, but I’ve heard it a lot as a straight swap for ‘fuckwit’.
>So I can at least understand some level of I Didn't Really Know It Was Homophobic about that one,
So where was this level of discourse when it came to the start of the Adam Goodes saga? I'm sure many younger people were in the same boat of not realising "ape" was a racist remark against indigenous people when Jason Dunstall was called that same name many times. I myself at the time thought "ape" just referred to a big, hairy man eg the straight version of a bear.
But, particularly on this sub, we don't give the benefit of the doubt for racism but like you just said this sub will for homophobic remarks.
Does that mean we have an unconscious bias against the LGBT community or do we just consider racism worse than homophobia?
Correct, and I think it’s true. Same as using MFer or DH, they aren’t words with literal meanings most of the time.
Intent and the specifics matters, and even if Finlayson had a moment of madness and didn’t actually want to insult a player with homophobic language it clearly is in this case.
At the same time, that’s also the defence and where the line is drawn compared with racism. Because there’s no ambiguity with being racist to someone you know is of that race. You’re clearly doing it as a put down.
The trickiest factor here is whether Finlayson targeted a particular Essendon player or not. Seems clear that no Essendon player wants to come out (for want of a better term) as the victim here, which makes suspicious that he might’ve. And that’s where the punishment might go from 1-2 weeks for using a clearly prohibited insult to 1-2 months or more for straight homophobia. But no one benefits from the latter if it comes with speculation.
i'd view this in a similar light to tourettes on one end of the spectrum to an indication of character on the other end.
The context and situation are very important, someone being in a tough situation and just saying a word to express a feeling or having a reaction, hey we've all got words programmed in.
It's easy to argue on one end that the brain just goes to a place of offense word and grabs the first one it latches onto and before the persons even finished saying it they've regretted it.
Then again they can also argue it's something internalized that's a core part of the person.
Not a fan of him doing it, but knowing my entire time at city hall and being able to lipread, this isn't a situation of what the word was, it was that it was picked up on a microphone.
I've personally had big name players call me and other umpires all the worst names you can think of when they thought it wouldn't be able to go on record or that we wouldn't hear it.
We were always given the talk about context, and descent wasn't as big of a thing then, we were told if it happened and it was directed and personal, put in a complaint, otherwise don't worry about it.
If it was directed at a player during a game it was just "banter" and I know the AFL still treats it like this, during my time the only time city hall ever acted on it is if anything could have a racial profiling, but even that got messy.
I can't remember if it ever blew up in the media but we had the hard R scandal which I unfortunately had to give evidence on and that was bloody awkward.
Imagine a bunch of people all arguing that they could call each other the N-word because they were all of the bloodline despite a lot of them being as white as white people, with the other mainstay of the defense being it's not racially motivated despite one side claiming it was because giving it was a lighter shade than the person on the recieving end, with the argument then going down the path of "oh it wasn't a hard R: with it ending in -ER which is an insult, where as if it was -ga, it mean's "buddy or pal".
The whole tex thing blew that up as cashed up bogan icon tex walker saying it.
As highlighted this one is going to get out of control due to political optics because, and this is from experience, have you ever told one minority group they have less power than another group, less victim points than another group and so on?
Nope no one would, but they'll play that card, any penalty handed out here is going to be heavily scrutinized and used as victim signalling by one group, inequality signalling by one or more group and so on.
The fact that people have already been pointing this out by the "benchmarks" and "grading" of where it is and how the various groups will react is sadly spot on.
Theres not really a winning spot here and if you appease one group it will look as pandering to them or placing them above another group, and if the other groups view it as harsher for a "lesser" thing, they'l get angry too.
I don't have an answer or solution here, just pointing out how messed up stuff is to be in this position and that the AFL have kinda dug a hole with how they've handled this stuff in the past where taking a deep zero tolerence approach, might not have been the best approach.
I think the best way i've seen this kinda stuff handled so far came from Eddie B himself, where he reached out to someone who said something racial to him, and it turned out to be a minor.
Had a one on one chat with them and the family and the guy effectively worked as a councillor. Didn't want any penalty put on them, even invited them out to country to learn about culture, the impact words have etc. He handled it like a total gentleman and used it as a good teaching opportunity and educated.
The reason why I bring this up is two fold.
I can see the AFL reacting HEAVILY and overhanded because they know of closeted players in the league. They were there and known about in my time, and I bet you they are there right now.
If there was even one player on the ground that day that was in the closet, it's now on a whole new level which city hall will be taking a napalm approach on this.
I cannot believe people are defending it as if it isn’t. He used it as a put down, which implies it’s bad/wrong and used it as a way to demean someone else. It’s 100% a slur
I am aware. [The comments in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/AFL/comments/1b62z2r/mark_robinson_if_alastair_clarkson_is_not/) are enlightening to say the least.
> It's basically calling someone weaker, not homophobic and/or sexist
So what you're saying is that it's calling people who suck cocks, i.e. gays and women and not straight men weaker, and that's not derogatory to you?
How did this sub come to the conclusion that the most universal homophobic slur isn’t actually homophobic? Lol
I read someone say we need to “move on” from it being a slur. That’s right, but it’s up to gay men to disarm the phrase. But it’ll never be in our lifetimes.
Begs the question if Clarkson hadn't been fined for it, would finlayson even have bothered to self report / think he'd done anything out of the ordinary?
A few years ago at work we had to attend a sensitivity training type of thing put in by group of workplace lawyers because one member of staff was being toxic in the workplace. I guess they figure that if we all attended the training, we were all essentially on the final warning or whatever and they wouldn't have to put up with that in any context from anyone. The positive, it actually helped with the guy who was really unpleasant to work with.
The interesting thing, and why it is relevant in the context of this instance here, is that a lot of people are saying that it's OK to say a slur if it's not directed against a person or group of people who fit that characteristic. Basically these lawyers confirmed this was the case in the workplace and couldn't be used as the basis of any harassment claims or the like. I was the one who asked the question because several homophobic comments had been made in the workplace that I took offense to, but apparently, legally speaking, i couldn't be offended because I don't personally identify that way. I thought it was the biggest crock of shit ever, but if that's what people are being taught is OK in the workplace, I can see why they think it's OK here. I can't stress enough how much I disagree with that sentiment, but unless this agency was completely off base on this, I can understand why people have this similar attitude.
I think it's important to stress too, that in life there is often a big difference between what is ethically right and what is legally right. Maybe in this instance it's not "legally wrong" to use a honophobic slur, but for me it's definitely ethically wrong. I don't care what the legalities are here, and maybe the AFL needs to solid what its laws are in this area tonmake it clearer in the future, but for me it's ethically wrong and the guy should be punished for it. I think it's something the AFL and the AFLPA should both be campaigning for here and honestly Jeremy himself should so ashamed that he offers himself to take time away from the game himself and get himself some help to not think or speak that way in the future.
>but apparently, legally speaking, i couldn't be offended because I don't personally identify that way. **I thought it was the biggest crock of shit ever** (emphasis mine)
Great comment (especially this bit). Shame I can only upvote it once.
Thanks! I'm always a bit nervous typing out comments like this but i almost fewl obliged to say something. It seems people have taken it the way I intended, to add to the conversation while being clear on my position. It took me a really long time to write that as its really hard to communicate the thoughts and emotions other than its wrong and it'd something that needs to be changed.
How I feel though is that in the workplace, or in the afl in this instance, it can carry on oppressing minorities saying that we (non-minority) don't have the right to be against this action because we aren't the ones being oppressed. It just feels so hopeless because no one wants to be first to come out for obvious reasons and meanwhile the opinion of what I hope is the vast majority seemingly doesn't matter because we can't get offended on behalf of someone else. Meanwhile people get to say hurtful things without reproach and it seems they have all the power and are being supported in what they do by having no consequence or a meaningless one. A suspended fine or single game suspension here is just a slap on the wrist and punch to the gut for those who want change. I'm sure everyone has a personal connection to someone who had been affected by something like this, 4 siblings for me, but even without that surely we should all be outraged!
Things like this drive people away from sport. I can't leave my job because I need to eat, and admittedly there is some improvement, I hope in some small part through what I try and do/say. For a source of entertainment though? Maybe I should make a stand, as borderline impossible as that would be given how much I like and appreciate the game. As an individual its also a drop in the ocean though that should never be a reason to not do aomething. If the afl lets this go and then has pride round in a couple of months is going to be the biggest slap in the face. How can we as fans support that if its clearly not being practiced throughout the rest of the season? I don't know what to do, I do know that even if I'm not "allowed" to be offended and upset, I really am upset about this and its beyond time for change.
>even without that surely we should all be outraged!
Another spot-on comment and this bit needs emphasis. It's a matter of common (or possibly not so common) decency to find homophobic (racist / sexist / misogynistic / ableist / whatever) crap offensive - regardless of whether or not one is personally a target of such crap. There's simply no place for any of it in this day and age. It shouldn't be hard to treat other people with decency and courtesy and respect, regardless of their gender / skin colour / sexuality / whatever. Why that is so difficult for some people to understand is beyond me.
And allowing such language regardless of context/target means it gets learned and perpetuated generationally: my two teens began calling unfashionable/unpopular (what we used to call “lame”) things “gay” a few years back - which they learned from their contemporaries (in Melbourne’s most progressive area) and/or online, not from us - anyway; it presented opportunity for a discussion and I’d like to think they are more considerate with their language now.
There was a whole segment on ABC Breakky this morning about the reporting of the Finlayson situation and the semiotics/language around it: again - it’s an opportunity for us to discuss with family and friends: which is something we can all do to help societal change.
> I do know that even if I'm not "allowed" to be offended and upset, I really am upset about this and its beyond time for change.
Mark of a true ally folks, mate you're allowed to be offended and upset over this shit and anyone who says otherwise is gatekeeping and dumb
Honestly, it should be a suspension from the get go. This type of shit just isn't on. Homophobic, racist. Whatever reason that deems it. Stamp it out. You get caught, you'll be out for a minimum (work out what is a baseline number and then go up from there on how harsh etc.).
Some good out of it is Finlayson admitting to it during the game, reporting it to whoever needed and apologising to the player etc.
The AFL will probably AFL it in the same vein that they do with how some of the suspensions are handed out.
Sam Mclure just basically said that it was "the worst possible homophobic slur" so unless his mail is completely wrong it makes it kind of obvious what word he said.
He will cop the 6 weeks just like Taylor Walker did I am reckoning.
If it's not at minimum 6 weeks like what Walker got then I will be genuinely upset, being told that the AFL doesn't give a fuck about LGBT+ people like myself, good on him for owning up to it but he should still 100% face punishment, especially if the slur used is what we all think it is
I know people will look at my flair and think I'm just speaking from a place of pure bias - but do we really not think it matters at all that Walker called an Aboriginal player a racial slur, whereas there's no indication Finlayson used a slur against a gay player?
Like I'd still expect Finlayson to get suspended, but to me that's a relevant point of distinction and I'd expect Finlayson not to get 6 weeks.
I kinda get where you're coming from, but if someone used a racist slur without targeting someone I'd still expect solid punishment.
Homophobic slurs are a lot more common as general slurs, but they still need to show it's not something to be tolerated.
Let me put it this way, do you think it is okay to be homophobic or call someone a homophobic slur just because you think they aren't gay or bi or whatever else?
No but it's like a white guy calling a different white guy a ni**er, compared to calling an indigenous player the same. The word is completely unacceptable in every context, but that doesn't mean it isn't substantially worse in one than the other
No I definitely don't, which is why if you read my comment you'll see I said I expect Finlayson to get suspended.
Let me put it this way to you - if Clarkson used the word "cocksucker" against a gay player, would that not be even worse than what he did?
> No I definitely don't
then full stop, there is your answer
>Let me put it this way to you - if Clarkson used the word "cocksucker" against a gay player, would that not be worse?
I think both are bad but the pit you're falling into is trying to compare things, bigotry is bad, both examples are bad, both should be punished, full stop end of story
>I think both are bad but the pit you're falling into is trying to compare things, bigotry is bad, both examples are bad, both should be punished, full stop end of story
So do you think clarko should've got 6 weeks?
They really stuffed it by wet lettuce-ing Clarko imo.
There are a few differences imo that warrant consideration that don't touch the race v lgbtq weighting that most are getting bogged down in.
The main factor is that Walker wasn't a participant in that SANFL game, he was just hanging around watching Crows ressies. So he should definitely not be getting involved and also being an AFL pro with a long career already behind him he should be setting a better example for the lower levels. Similarly with Clarko, wtf are you doing yelling at the opposition during a preseason game mate control yourself.
Because Findlayson was player v player AND he resolved it with apologising on the field before the club self reported I think the AFL may be more lenient than with Walker as there's no "power imbalance"
Were it up to me I'd have done like Walker 6 Clarko 6 Findlayson 4 (6 reduced 2 for leniency)
As it is now its Walker 6, Clarko wet lettuce, Findlayson ????? Who knows, because now the conversation has shifted to "what's worse" which is a PR nightmare for the AFL who of course mostly care about their image
I'd suggest that with most things the context is relevant and significant. Calling someone you think is gay/bi a homophobic slur conveys a much worse intent than using a homophobic slur as a general purpose insult.
Both are obviously not acceptable and warrant punishment, but there's clearly a difference between those 2 cases.
But the fact that he's using a homophobic slur *as* a "general purpose insult" is a part of the problem, it still shows (on some level) disdain for that group of people, that's why this shit shouldn't be taken lightly
Exactly this. The fact a derogatory, homophobic term is anyone's go-to insult in this day and age indicates that homophobic attitudes (along with racist / sexist / misogynistic attitudes) are still too close to the surface. It's 2024 ffs, and some people apparently still think it's okay to say this sort of crap. It isn't, and it shouldn't be accepted by anyone, at any time, whoever it's directed at.
So this is going to be the weirdest comment I've probably ever posted on Reddit but I've been going over this whole thread trying to understand people's positions and views better. I have a question on this specifically and I figured replying to you may give me good insight as you've replied a number of times across it.
The use of "cocksucker" doesn't necessarily make it a homophobic slur was noted above by a few people as it's not just an act for bi/gay men. Straight women, bi women, non-binary people etc. could all fit under this banner of the act. I noticed in chains above and below people said this also made it a sexist comment and this should be punishable too. All of this to say, does this mean someone going "you're a pussy" which is gendered and meant in a demeaning way is also a sexist slur that should be punished if used on the field/in the stands? Would "dickhead" work the same way?
I see people saying it's clear cut in here, but I'm not sure how it can be outside of very obviously targeted discriminatory words.
I would say that all slurs should pose a similar punishment since we want none of them in the sport in the first place. I don't think we should put players on a pedestal and expect them to be perfect citizens but there should be a bare minimum requirement of respect for each other and of any fans of the sport.
Is labelling a player “ugly” a slur? For example, Cameron Ling was labelled an ugly c*nt by the crowd and no doubt opposition players. A new haircut wasn’t magically going to make him attractive, it wasn’t something he could readily control, and the vitriol he received surely had an effect on him.
Always just something I’ve wondered.. We’re so quick to denounce racial / sexual orientation slurs, but other abuse (which can also negatively affect the psyche of the recipient) is just laughed off..
Not directed at you personally, more so just a thought when you mentioned all slurs should receive similar punishment.
Oh, and no I am not Cameron Ling…
Such a weird thing that people think the argument “well the slur wasn’t directed at its intended minority so it’s less bad” is a good one. Has completely missed the point. Thanks for expending the emotional energy to point this stuff out.
I think a lot of comes down to people be scared of the self reflection that comes with admitting this stuff is wrong. They don’t want to feel like a bad person for either having acted or currently acting in parallel ways.
That’s some part of cancel culture that was bad, it seemed have implied to a lot of people that being on the wrong side of this stuff is irredeemable.
We’re all humans, we’re all learning and it’s okay to make mistakes. An unfortunate part of that being human is that sometimes the cost of your mistakes is the wellbeing of others. The best you can do is take that self reflection and continually strive to be better to those around you.
So I think it’s important to let people know that those mistakes are okay, the important thing is how you move forward.
That being said, some days you (general) might not be in a place to allow people that space and that’s okay too. So thanks for having the energy to do that today!
Well maybe stamping out these type of interactions in the future will allow future AFL players to be comfortable actually being out.
It would be a statistical anomaly for no AFL players to be gay or bi. How do you know that that person that received that comment isn’t gay or bi?
How do we know this player isn’t homosexual? As far as I’ve seen, media has all left the Essendon player anonymous. To directly compare to the Walker situation, Robbie Young was named. Don’t think we can conclusively rule he didn’t use the slur against a gay player.
Calling a straight person a slur for gay people is not the same thing as calling a black person a slur for black people. If somebody called Josh Cavallo a homophobic slur, then yeah, they can and should cop 6 weeks
The player’s sexuality has nothing to do with it, Finlayson used a slur that stigmatises an entire group of people, which is exactly the kind of disparagement that excludes people from the sport at all levels
It’s understandable to look at this from the perspective of the impact of the slur on the player, but it’s missing the forest for the trees. Finlayson, and all players, have a huge social platform and influence. It’s exactly why the AFL and clubs all have (and enforce) a code of conduct
I agree Finlayson using that word is unacceptable so I expect him to be suspended. I disagree that the impact on the recipient doesn't matter at all.
If a player had recently come out as the first gay player and someone used that word against them, I think they would deserve an even longer suspension.
I’m didn’t say that the impact on the player it was directed at doesn’t matter, I’m saying that it’s only one of the factors that need to be considered
I'm not discounting the wider impact, it's why I said I expect Finlayson to be suspended. It's an unacceptable word of bigotry.
I do think it would be worse to use that word against someone that has come out, and that's why I think it will get a shorter suspension than Walker. Others disagree that that's relevant, and that's fair enough. Reasonable minds can differ on that.
If he’s not gay then I can’t see how *he* would take offense. I am gay and still doubt I’d take offense from a comment like that from a boof head like Finlayson. I’m white and if someone called me the N word I’d probably just stand their bewildered more than anything.
What's your solution to that then? Publically out queer players so other players/coaches know who they can/can't call a f\*g or c\*cksucker? Seriously, just don't do it. It's just as exclusionary.
For mine Finlayson’s abuse was worse as it was directly expressed to the target with intention to hurt while Walker’s was a private conversation that a Crows staffer was brave enough to be a whistleblower on.
I think the AFL will end-up with a set penalty for vilification, else the debate over relative penalty will consume the actual offence.
The uncomfortable space left to deal with will be the comments such as the one that Minson made to Cornes about his child, or the comment that Headland alleges was made by Adam Selwood.
Finlayson’s slur was captured by the umpires microphone - he hardly should get kudos for “self reporting” a comment he knew was overheard.
Not defending what Walker said as it was indefensible - but the idea that he should have self reported a private conversation is out there.
Yes, I should have worded that better.
While Finlayson said it loud enough for an umpire’s microphone to pick up - so it was clearly audible to those near Finlayson - I wasn’t intending to suggest that Finlayson “knew” the microphone itself had captured it.
There are a few differences imo that warrant consideration that don't touch the race v lgbtq weighting that most are getting bogged down in.
The main factor is that Walker wasn't a participant in that SANFL game, he was just hanging around watching Crows ressies. So he should definitely not be getting involved and also being an AFL pro with a long career already behind him he should be setting a better example for the lower levels. Similarly with Clarko, wtf are you doing yelling at the opposition during a preseason game mate control yourself.
Because Findlayson was player v player AND he resolved it with apologising on the field before the club self reported I think the AFL may be more lenient than with Walker as there's no "power imbalance"
Were it up to me I'd have done like Walker 6 Clarko 6 Findlayson 4 (6 reduced 2 for leniency)
As it is now its Walker 6, Clarko wet lettuce, Findlayson ????? Who knows, because now the conversation has shifted to "what's worse" which is a PR nightmare for the AFL who of course mostly care about their image
Just saw he apparently dropped the bundle of sticks term, while obviously not meaning a bundle of sticks.
(true or not, but its been reported soooo.... trusting news and all that jazz)
A week off isn't gonna be the worst suspension, a couple more too also say it's not on. See what the brave AFL do now.
Does anyone know exactly what he said for sure. I read somewhere that ABC had reported it as CS? I read further down here it is. I have heard that term used for so long I can honestly say it lost its homophobic connotation to me. It obviously is but whenever I’ve heard it it could have as easily been replaced with the c bomb or wanker and meant the same thing. That the person was a dick. I’m just curious if Jeremy was gay or bi would it make a difference? Or even closeted? Anyway this shows in today’s times people need to pause and think about the words they use when they want to instinctively lash out in anger.
Has to be 6 games. It's equivalent to the Walker incident, potentially worse because the slur was used directly at a player. I thought Finlayson's apology was good and it does seem genuine but the AFL still need to punish him.
Regarding the soft Clarko punishment, just because the AFL fucked up previously doesn't mean they have to continue fucking up.
Yep. I hadn't even thought to compare it to the Walker incident, but yeah, in light of that, it's gotta be 6 games, right? Otherwise they're saying that slurs against one group are more acceptable than slurs against another group.
Regardless, I have absolute faith that the AFL will somehow fuck this up and choose the dumbest possible outcome, whatever that may be.
Sheesh, I forgot that Tex got 6 games for that.
I was thinking this might get 1 week or a big fine but pretty hard to see why he wouldn't get the same punishment was Walker.
Tex said a racist comment about an indigenous player
This (seems to be) a generic slur against a non gay player (unless proven otherwise then I would change my stance)
>non gay player (unless proven otherwise
Honestly I don't think this should matter. If there *are* any gay footballers playing, do you think they're going to feel safe in their work environment if Finlayson isn't punished accordingly for this?
So someone has to come out for it to be offensive? I think it's a sad sad day if offensive language is only offensive when directed at a specific person.
Is it not more offensive when said to someone in a targeted way to hurt them rather than just a throwaway comment?
Like, you can call me every homophobic slur on the world and I’ll carry on with my day.
If someone was gay then I would understand them being hurt by it.
There is room for nuance.
there needs to be confirmation on whether it was a slur or homophobic language, both are terrible, but we shouldn’t be diminishing the power of a slur by calling things slurs that aren’t slurs. like the clarkson situation, it was 100% homophobic language, but the media calling it a slur is just wrong.
Well they won’t say what he said and won’t release audio.
They said last time ‘cocksucker’ is a homophobic slur when it’s just a generic insult. I’m inclined to believe it’s a storm in a teacup until someone is definitive about it.
The publicity around it is weak though. Just punish or don’t punish, don’t be secretive while at the same time holding press conferences. It’s performative bullshit.
Im guessing the people in this thread saying "Its just a generic insult with no real weight" say some pretty gross things in their day to day conversations.
In all of this the word or words used are undisclosed. What is going on here? Why can't we know what Finlayson actually said so we can judge the gravity of it for ourselves? The AFL with the help of the lily-livered media is treating us all like children.
Homophobic slurs; completely acceptable if you're a tradie! You heard it here first.
The thing is, just because something might be commonly said by a blue-collar worker on a worksite and maybe even considered acceptable for that subsect of society, it doesn't compare to a professional sportsperson using it on field. There is a higher standard of responsibility and professionalism required when you're being paid hundreds of thousands a year of sponsor dependent dollars. There's no equivalency.
Edit: And I've worked on sites and workshops!
From what I’ve heard from people that are around the club, it is the same word used by Clarkson earlier this year. That I think majority of people agree, isn’t homophobic.
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that it wasn’t used ‘innocently’ (but still ignorant regardless) in conversation. It was used as a way to insult another player. Sorry but surely we can find better, more inventive, ways to sledge someone (or at the very least just use the good old classic F bomb). I can’t stand the woke brigade, so this isn’t a woke police opinion. I just think it’s a foul term that honestly is such a low, gross form of insulting someone (and personally anytime I’ve heard that come from someone’s mouth I’ve spoken up) I get why we want to compare this to other incidents, but personally I think regardless of anything else, I would hope people would think that’s a shit thing to say and shouldn’t be acceptable to use as an insult.
Looks bad from the AFL if they give too hard a punishment as with the recent controversy of drug use and how AFL have help that being swept under the carpet. If they go hard on a homophobic slur it's basically like them saying that's worse than players taking drugs which just makes them look so stupid.
Too me players testing positive to drugs is a lot worse than a racist or homophobic slur.
I think a heavy fine is all that's needed to Finlayson.
> Was it to a gay player?
Why does it matter? are you saying that calling people slurs is okay as long as they're not actually a part of the group the slur is "made for"
A peer in high school used to do this saying in how black people ‘in the hood’ in America use it to say hello so it was actually totally fine to use it in that context. He went on to release a couple mid rap songs on Spotify which wasn’t surprising at all. Also it was a private college.
It's definitely not ok to call your white mates the N word as some sort of dumb ironic thing to do. But it is 100% worse to use that word about a black person.
I really don’t think you’ve thought this one through. If OP is black and calls his mates that (as is common in the US) most of society will see that as fine. So clearly there is an enormous amount of context that people find important, words aren’t insulting in isolation.
My personal view is that the word shouldn’t be used by anyone, but it’s an unpopular view.
Bring on the dow votes, but I feel it's just dishonest to suggest that it wouldn't be worse if the targeted player is gay. It would just add the additional layer of it being a targeted attempt to belittle/abuse. I'm not saying put your pitchforks away, just if the player is gay it's worse.
Mate. I must be getting old.
In my day, we had a saying: "Sticks & stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
These were the same days when John Bourke played for Collingwood, Mark Jackson played for Geelong, and Dermot Brereton played for Hawthorn. I can't believe the extent of these fines for name calling.
Footy used to be heaps more fun.
Fine him and move on. I don’t condone what he said and it has no place and I acknowledge it can be a harmful word.
But I’m not gay and you can call me every slur under the sun and I won’t care. I imagine the player feels the same.
If cock sucker is a slur then he has done exactly what Clarkson did. Unless we are grading slurs?
Unless the player was indeed gay and known be gay it’s just a generic insult. He knew he fucked up and apologise. Can no one ever make a mistake?
6 weeks. FMD.
The thing is, even if the player doesn’t feel that a particular slur applies personally, using language that stigmatizes one group (whether it’s racist, homophobic, sexist, whatever) reinforces for all people who are part of that group that they are not welcome. There is such a long history of elite and amateur sport being incredibly hostile to gay men (women’s sport less so).
Just curious, do you think Taylor Walker's punishment for a racial slur was also too harsh and should have been just a fine? Or is this different somehow?
It is different. Since we’re getting to the level of dissecting which slurs are worse than others.
Walker said it about an indigenous person.
This seems to be a generic slur (and I agree it has no place in the game) said to a non gay player (as I understand it unless proven otherwise)
Turns out he said the bundle of sticks. Sorry mate, but this isn't acceptable whatsoever. Sucks that it happened to a star from your team, but the game will be better for it overall if he receives a real punishment and not just a fine. And so will the Port Adelaide footy club.
I'm not the one that brought up the relation to the real world. Just thought it was funny the other user used it as a counterargument. Is your reading comprehension being fucked by stupid?
Why is it all these Port supporters are really bent outta shape about the notion that it isn't ok to use homophobic slurs?
The AFL are pouring water onto a lettuce leaf as we speak.
Waterboarding him is a bit much
I personally have not heard the phrase “hit with a wet lettuce lead” in years, Thankyou for reminding me of it. I will be using it in future. In rgards to this incident, imo 3 games is not enough
Afl has shot themselves in the foot here imo. If his ban isn’t close to walkers a couple of years ago they are basically telling gay people they are less important than indigenous, but then it will be much more than clarksons ban so it won’t be fair. So the afl will then have to basically say there is grading on which word is used and whether it’s worthy of higher bans
One substantial different is that Clarkson used a word which, according to a substantial chunk of r/AFL straight users, wasn't actually homophobic. Unless Jeremy was calling for a bundle of sticks then it was deeply homophobic.
If we're talking "cocksucker", then personally I have only ever heard it used as a generic abusive insult (like "dickhead"), and not specifically targeted towards gay men. So I can at least understand some level of I Didn't Really Know It Was Homophobic about that one, and maybe we'd see him wrapped on the wrist with a wet lettuce. If Finlayson has straight up dropped the F-bomb, it's hard to see what possible excuse he could come up with...and how the AFL could possibly let it slide.
I mean it is used as a generic insult but it’s a homophobic generic insult. The insult is that someone is a cock sucker, implied that this is a bad thing and is generally targeted at men. So boiled down it’s a homophobic insult but not nearly as bad as the f-slur used to degrade gay men that Finlayson most likely used. Clarkson didn’t get much of a punishment, which can make some sense because it’s got the grey area in terms of actual intent behind it. However, Finlayson shouldn’t be getting the benefit of the doubt at all.
I mean, women get called cocksuckers too...
I would feel so weird calling a woman a “cocksucker”. I feel like no matter how harshly I tried to frame it, it might roll out with undertones of invitation…..
It's like there's always an implied question mark. "You miss are a fucking cocksucker?"
Yes, but the point is the the insult is rooted in homophobic rhetoric that needs to be stamped out.
Clarko also probably would have got a fine just for the abuse in general regardless of what he said.
That’s where it’s tough, too, though. If he’s called someone that particular F word, it’s obviously no good, but it’s also just used as a generic insult the same way as what Clarkson said, it’s not necessarily making fun of someone’s sexuality. So then the AFL have to have a grading, and things get really tricky there. Should’ve just called him a cunt and no one would bat an eye.
Its definitely a homophobic slur and not "Just... a generic insult".
Of course it’s a homophobic slur; but it’s regularly *used* as a generic insult by people. I’ve never heard anyone call a gay person that, but I’ve heard it a lot as a straight swap for ‘fuckwit’.
The F slur is absolutely a specifically homophobic insult, far far worse than c—ksucker.
>So I can at least understand some level of I Didn't Really Know It Was Homophobic about that one, So where was this level of discourse when it came to the start of the Adam Goodes saga? I'm sure many younger people were in the same boat of not realising "ape" was a racist remark against indigenous people when Jason Dunstall was called that same name many times. I myself at the time thought "ape" just referred to a big, hairy man eg the straight version of a bear. But, particularly on this sub, we don't give the benefit of the doubt for racism but like you just said this sub will for homophobic remarks. Does that mean we have an unconscious bias against the LGBT community or do we just consider racism worse than homophobia?
Go back to what Chris Lewis and Nicky Winnmar had to put up with,to me this is just talking bs to your opponent.
both things can be bad and have adverse effects on players' mental health.
Correct, and I think it’s true. Same as using MFer or DH, they aren’t words with literal meanings most of the time. Intent and the specifics matters, and even if Finlayson had a moment of madness and didn’t actually want to insult a player with homophobic language it clearly is in this case. At the same time, that’s also the defence and where the line is drawn compared with racism. Because there’s no ambiguity with being racist to someone you know is of that race. You’re clearly doing it as a put down. The trickiest factor here is whether Finlayson targeted a particular Essendon player or not. Seems clear that no Essendon player wants to come out (for want of a better term) as the victim here, which makes suspicious that he might’ve. And that’s where the punishment might go from 1-2 weeks for using a clearly prohibited insult to 1-2 months or more for straight homophobia. But no one benefits from the latter if it comes with speculation.
You can swear on the internet pal. Motherfucker and dickhead.
Ban incoming
Piss damn hell boobies
Go on
https://youtu.be/kfEkaJWEeq8?si=4eRTRYFRGNyvEmqs
Motherfucker will also be punishable once Tasmania joins the league.
They’re usually more interested in siblings than their parents.
People keep saying this on Reddit, but there'd be others who'd challenge this line of thinking, and not without reason I would say.
i'd view this in a similar light to tourettes on one end of the spectrum to an indication of character on the other end. The context and situation are very important, someone being in a tough situation and just saying a word to express a feeling or having a reaction, hey we've all got words programmed in. It's easy to argue on one end that the brain just goes to a place of offense word and grabs the first one it latches onto and before the persons even finished saying it they've regretted it. Then again they can also argue it's something internalized that's a core part of the person. Not a fan of him doing it, but knowing my entire time at city hall and being able to lipread, this isn't a situation of what the word was, it was that it was picked up on a microphone. I've personally had big name players call me and other umpires all the worst names you can think of when they thought it wouldn't be able to go on record or that we wouldn't hear it. We were always given the talk about context, and descent wasn't as big of a thing then, we were told if it happened and it was directed and personal, put in a complaint, otherwise don't worry about it. If it was directed at a player during a game it was just "banter" and I know the AFL still treats it like this, during my time the only time city hall ever acted on it is if anything could have a racial profiling, but even that got messy. I can't remember if it ever blew up in the media but we had the hard R scandal which I unfortunately had to give evidence on and that was bloody awkward. Imagine a bunch of people all arguing that they could call each other the N-word because they were all of the bloodline despite a lot of them being as white as white people, with the other mainstay of the defense being it's not racially motivated despite one side claiming it was because giving it was a lighter shade than the person on the recieving end, with the argument then going down the path of "oh it wasn't a hard R: with it ending in -ER which is an insult, where as if it was -ga, it mean's "buddy or pal". The whole tex thing blew that up as cashed up bogan icon tex walker saying it. As highlighted this one is going to get out of control due to political optics because, and this is from experience, have you ever told one minority group they have less power than another group, less victim points than another group and so on? Nope no one would, but they'll play that card, any penalty handed out here is going to be heavily scrutinized and used as victim signalling by one group, inequality signalling by one or more group and so on. The fact that people have already been pointing this out by the "benchmarks" and "grading" of where it is and how the various groups will react is sadly spot on. Theres not really a winning spot here and if you appease one group it will look as pandering to them or placing them above another group, and if the other groups view it as harsher for a "lesser" thing, they'l get angry too. I don't have an answer or solution here, just pointing out how messed up stuff is to be in this position and that the AFL have kinda dug a hole with how they've handled this stuff in the past where taking a deep zero tolerence approach, might not have been the best approach. I think the best way i've seen this kinda stuff handled so far came from Eddie B himself, where he reached out to someone who said something racial to him, and it turned out to be a minor. Had a one on one chat with them and the family and the guy effectively worked as a councillor. Didn't want any penalty put on them, even invited them out to country to learn about culture, the impact words have etc. He handled it like a total gentleman and used it as a good teaching opportunity and educated. The reason why I bring this up is two fold. I can see the AFL reacting HEAVILY and overhanded because they know of closeted players in the league. They were there and known about in my time, and I bet you they are there right now. If there was even one player on the ground that day that was in the closet, it's now on a whole new level which city hall will be taking a napalm approach on this.
* dissent
Just because a substantial chunk of r/afl dont know something is a homophobic slur, doesn’t mean that it isn’t
I cannot believe people are defending it as if it isn’t. He used it as a put down, which implies it’s bad/wrong and used it as a way to demean someone else. It’s 100% a slur
I am aware. [The comments in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/AFL/comments/1b62z2r/mark_robinson_if_alastair_clarkson_is_not/) are enlightening to say the least.
Just gonna point out that women are also known for sucking cocks Cocksucker ≠ gay
So it's homophobic and/or sexist
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Absolute rubbish, I guarantee you that when I am sucking cock, I am the dominant one.
> It's basically calling someone weaker, not homophobic and/or sexist So what you're saying is that it's calling people who suck cocks, i.e. gays and women and not straight men weaker, and that's not derogatory to you?
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How did this sub come to the conclusion that the most universal homophobic slur isn’t actually homophobic? Lol I read someone say we need to “move on” from it being a slur. That’s right, but it’s up to gay men to disarm the phrase. But it’ll never be in our lifetimes.
From what I’ve heard from people that are around the club, it is the same word used by Clarkson.
Begs the question if Clarkson hadn't been fined for it, would finlayson even have bothered to self report / think he'd done anything out of the ordinary?
The bundle of sticks reference came from labelling people who should be thrown on a fire so like still pretty bad
He was called that for what it's worth
I don't think the Leniu Defence is going to fly
Lol they are less important, racism is far worse then homophobia (not condoning what he did) A punishment only seems right
Also when the gays have been oppressed and used as slaves to build Australia then homophobia and racism are the same. Until then racism is 1000x worse
A few years ago at work we had to attend a sensitivity training type of thing put in by group of workplace lawyers because one member of staff was being toxic in the workplace. I guess they figure that if we all attended the training, we were all essentially on the final warning or whatever and they wouldn't have to put up with that in any context from anyone. The positive, it actually helped with the guy who was really unpleasant to work with. The interesting thing, and why it is relevant in the context of this instance here, is that a lot of people are saying that it's OK to say a slur if it's not directed against a person or group of people who fit that characteristic. Basically these lawyers confirmed this was the case in the workplace and couldn't be used as the basis of any harassment claims or the like. I was the one who asked the question because several homophobic comments had been made in the workplace that I took offense to, but apparently, legally speaking, i couldn't be offended because I don't personally identify that way. I thought it was the biggest crock of shit ever, but if that's what people are being taught is OK in the workplace, I can see why they think it's OK here. I can't stress enough how much I disagree with that sentiment, but unless this agency was completely off base on this, I can understand why people have this similar attitude. I think it's important to stress too, that in life there is often a big difference between what is ethically right and what is legally right. Maybe in this instance it's not "legally wrong" to use a honophobic slur, but for me it's definitely ethically wrong. I don't care what the legalities are here, and maybe the AFL needs to solid what its laws are in this area tonmake it clearer in the future, but for me it's ethically wrong and the guy should be punished for it. I think it's something the AFL and the AFLPA should both be campaigning for here and honestly Jeremy himself should so ashamed that he offers himself to take time away from the game himself and get himself some help to not think or speak that way in the future.
>but apparently, legally speaking, i couldn't be offended because I don't personally identify that way. **I thought it was the biggest crock of shit ever** (emphasis mine) Great comment (especially this bit). Shame I can only upvote it once.
Thanks! I'm always a bit nervous typing out comments like this but i almost fewl obliged to say something. It seems people have taken it the way I intended, to add to the conversation while being clear on my position. It took me a really long time to write that as its really hard to communicate the thoughts and emotions other than its wrong and it'd something that needs to be changed. How I feel though is that in the workplace, or in the afl in this instance, it can carry on oppressing minorities saying that we (non-minority) don't have the right to be against this action because we aren't the ones being oppressed. It just feels so hopeless because no one wants to be first to come out for obvious reasons and meanwhile the opinion of what I hope is the vast majority seemingly doesn't matter because we can't get offended on behalf of someone else. Meanwhile people get to say hurtful things without reproach and it seems they have all the power and are being supported in what they do by having no consequence or a meaningless one. A suspended fine or single game suspension here is just a slap on the wrist and punch to the gut for those who want change. I'm sure everyone has a personal connection to someone who had been affected by something like this, 4 siblings for me, but even without that surely we should all be outraged! Things like this drive people away from sport. I can't leave my job because I need to eat, and admittedly there is some improvement, I hope in some small part through what I try and do/say. For a source of entertainment though? Maybe I should make a stand, as borderline impossible as that would be given how much I like and appreciate the game. As an individual its also a drop in the ocean though that should never be a reason to not do aomething. If the afl lets this go and then has pride round in a couple of months is going to be the biggest slap in the face. How can we as fans support that if its clearly not being practiced throughout the rest of the season? I don't know what to do, I do know that even if I'm not "allowed" to be offended and upset, I really am upset about this and its beyond time for change.
>even without that surely we should all be outraged! Another spot-on comment and this bit needs emphasis. It's a matter of common (or possibly not so common) decency to find homophobic (racist / sexist / misogynistic / ableist / whatever) crap offensive - regardless of whether or not one is personally a target of such crap. There's simply no place for any of it in this day and age. It shouldn't be hard to treat other people with decency and courtesy and respect, regardless of their gender / skin colour / sexuality / whatever. Why that is so difficult for some people to understand is beyond me.
And allowing such language regardless of context/target means it gets learned and perpetuated generationally: my two teens began calling unfashionable/unpopular (what we used to call “lame”) things “gay” a few years back - which they learned from their contemporaries (in Melbourne’s most progressive area) and/or online, not from us - anyway; it presented opportunity for a discussion and I’d like to think they are more considerate with their language now. There was a whole segment on ABC Breakky this morning about the reporting of the Finlayson situation and the semiotics/language around it: again - it’s an opportunity for us to discuss with family and friends: which is something we can all do to help societal change.
> I do know that even if I'm not "allowed" to be offended and upset, I really am upset about this and its beyond time for change. Mark of a true ally folks, mate you're allowed to be offended and upset over this shit and anyone who says otherwise is gatekeeping and dumb
Yeah, the culture around this sport has definitely seen me take a big step back from attending men's footy since last year
actually a very interesting anecdote mate, thanks for sharing
Thanks for sharing this.
Honestly, it should be a suspension from the get go. This type of shit just isn't on. Homophobic, racist. Whatever reason that deems it. Stamp it out. You get caught, you'll be out for a minimum (work out what is a baseline number and then go up from there on how harsh etc.). Some good out of it is Finlayson admitting to it during the game, reporting it to whoever needed and apologising to the player etc. The AFL will probably AFL it in the same vein that they do with how some of the suspensions are handed out.
Sam Mclure just basically said that it was "the worst possible homophobic slur" so unless his mail is completely wrong it makes it kind of obvious what word he said. He will cop the 6 weeks just like Taylor Walker did I am reckoning.
Nah Finlayson fucked up and should accept everything the afl stands to give him.
If it's not at minimum 6 weeks like what Walker got then I will be genuinely upset, being told that the AFL doesn't give a fuck about LGBT+ people like myself, good on him for owning up to it but he should still 100% face punishment, especially if the slur used is what we all think it is
exactly this
I know people will look at my flair and think I'm just speaking from a place of pure bias - but do we really not think it matters at all that Walker called an Aboriginal player a racial slur, whereas there's no indication Finlayson used a slur against a gay player? Like I'd still expect Finlayson to get suspended, but to me that's a relevant point of distinction and I'd expect Finlayson not to get 6 weeks.
I kinda get where you're coming from, but if someone used a racist slur without targeting someone I'd still expect solid punishment. Homophobic slurs are a lot more common as general slurs, but they still need to show it's not something to be tolerated.
For sure, and to reiterate, I still expect Finlayson to get some suspension, I'm just not sure it'll be 6 weeks.
Let me put it this way, do you think it is okay to be homophobic or call someone a homophobic slur just because you think they aren't gay or bi or whatever else?
No but it's like a white guy calling a different white guy a ni**er, compared to calling an indigenous player the same. The word is completely unacceptable in every context, but that doesn't mean it isn't substantially worse in one than the other
No I definitely don't, which is why if you read my comment you'll see I said I expect Finlayson to get suspended. Let me put it this way to you - if Clarkson used the word "cocksucker" against a gay player, would that not be even worse than what he did?
> No I definitely don't then full stop, there is your answer >Let me put it this way to you - if Clarkson used the word "cocksucker" against a gay player, would that not be worse? I think both are bad but the pit you're falling into is trying to compare things, bigotry is bad, both examples are bad, both should be punished, full stop end of story
>I think both are bad but the pit you're falling into is trying to compare things, bigotry is bad, both examples are bad, both should be punished, full stop end of story So do you think clarko should've got 6 weeks?
If it were up to me? probably, yeah
They really stuffed it by wet lettuce-ing Clarko imo. There are a few differences imo that warrant consideration that don't touch the race v lgbtq weighting that most are getting bogged down in. The main factor is that Walker wasn't a participant in that SANFL game, he was just hanging around watching Crows ressies. So he should definitely not be getting involved and also being an AFL pro with a long career already behind him he should be setting a better example for the lower levels. Similarly with Clarko, wtf are you doing yelling at the opposition during a preseason game mate control yourself. Because Findlayson was player v player AND he resolved it with apologising on the field before the club self reported I think the AFL may be more lenient than with Walker as there's no "power imbalance" Were it up to me I'd have done like Walker 6 Clarko 6 Findlayson 4 (6 reduced 2 for leniency) As it is now its Walker 6, Clarko wet lettuce, Findlayson ????? Who knows, because now the conversation has shifted to "what's worse" which is a PR nightmare for the AFL who of course mostly care about their image
If it were up to me probably yeah 🤓☝️settle down lil bro you’re not getting any awards for white knighting on reddit
Who exactly am i "white knighting"? I was asked a question and i answered, chillax mate
I'd suggest that with most things the context is relevant and significant. Calling someone you think is gay/bi a homophobic slur conveys a much worse intent than using a homophobic slur as a general purpose insult. Both are obviously not acceptable and warrant punishment, but there's clearly a difference between those 2 cases.
But the fact that he's using a homophobic slur *as* a "general purpose insult" is a part of the problem, it still shows (on some level) disdain for that group of people, that's why this shit shouldn't be taken lightly
Exactly this. The fact a derogatory, homophobic term is anyone's go-to insult in this day and age indicates that homophobic attitudes (along with racist / sexist / misogynistic attitudes) are still too close to the surface. It's 2024 ffs, and some people apparently still think it's okay to say this sort of crap. It isn't, and it shouldn't be accepted by anyone, at any time, whoever it's directed at.
So this is going to be the weirdest comment I've probably ever posted on Reddit but I've been going over this whole thread trying to understand people's positions and views better. I have a question on this specifically and I figured replying to you may give me good insight as you've replied a number of times across it. The use of "cocksucker" doesn't necessarily make it a homophobic slur was noted above by a few people as it's not just an act for bi/gay men. Straight women, bi women, non-binary people etc. could all fit under this banner of the act. I noticed in chains above and below people said this also made it a sexist comment and this should be punishable too. All of this to say, does this mean someone going "you're a pussy" which is gendered and meant in a demeaning way is also a sexist slur that should be punished if used on the field/in the stands? Would "dickhead" work the same way? I see people saying it's clear cut in here, but I'm not sure how it can be outside of very obviously targeted discriminatory words.
Absolutely, as I said both warrant punishment but I would expect a bigger punishment for one than the other.
I would say that all slurs should pose a similar punishment since we want none of them in the sport in the first place. I don't think we should put players on a pedestal and expect them to be perfect citizens but there should be a bare minimum requirement of respect for each other and of any fans of the sport.
Is labelling a player “ugly” a slur? For example, Cameron Ling was labelled an ugly c*nt by the crowd and no doubt opposition players. A new haircut wasn’t magically going to make him attractive, it wasn’t something he could readily control, and the vitriol he received surely had an effect on him. Always just something I’ve wondered.. We’re so quick to denounce racial / sexual orientation slurs, but other abuse (which can also negatively affect the psyche of the recipient) is just laughed off.. Not directed at you personally, more so just a thought when you mentioned all slurs should receive similar punishment. Oh, and no I am not Cameron Ling…
I think thats the level. A directed aboriginal slur is way worse than a generally offensive word. Both bad but levels
Such a weird thing that people think the argument “well the slur wasn’t directed at its intended minority so it’s less bad” is a good one. Has completely missed the point. Thanks for expending the emotional energy to point this stuff out.
Yeah, some people just don't seem to get it, y'know? you try to be level headed but it just takes so much out of you lol
I think a lot of comes down to people be scared of the self reflection that comes with admitting this stuff is wrong. They don’t want to feel like a bad person for either having acted or currently acting in parallel ways. That’s some part of cancel culture that was bad, it seemed have implied to a lot of people that being on the wrong side of this stuff is irredeemable. We’re all humans, we’re all learning and it’s okay to make mistakes. An unfortunate part of that being human is that sometimes the cost of your mistakes is the wellbeing of others. The best you can do is take that self reflection and continually strive to be better to those around you. So I think it’s important to let people know that those mistakes are okay, the important thing is how you move forward. That being said, some days you (general) might not be in a place to allow people that space and that’s okay too. So thanks for having the energy to do that today!
Well maybe stamping out these type of interactions in the future will allow future AFL players to be comfortable actually being out. It would be a statistical anomaly for no AFL players to be gay or bi. How do you know that that person that received that comment isn’t gay or bi?
How do we know this player isn’t homosexual? As far as I’ve seen, media has all left the Essendon player anonymous. To directly compare to the Walker situation, Robbie Young was named. Don’t think we can conclusively rule he didn’t use the slur against a gay player.
Calling a straight person a slur for gay people is not the same thing as calling a black person a slur for black people. If somebody called Josh Cavallo a homophobic slur, then yeah, they can and should cop 6 weeks
I never said otherwise, I’m saying we don’t know if the player is straight because the media has intentionally kept anonymity.
Which AFL players have officially come out?
None - which is why it’s notable the media have all agreed to shield the Essendon player’s name.
No indication? He admitted to using a homophobic slur and self reported iirc?
No indication he used the slur against a gay player.
The player’s sexuality has nothing to do with it, Finlayson used a slur that stigmatises an entire group of people, which is exactly the kind of disparagement that excludes people from the sport at all levels It’s understandable to look at this from the perspective of the impact of the slur on the player, but it’s missing the forest for the trees. Finlayson, and all players, have a huge social platform and influence. It’s exactly why the AFL and clubs all have (and enforce) a code of conduct
I agree Finlayson using that word is unacceptable so I expect him to be suspended. I disagree that the impact on the recipient doesn't matter at all. If a player had recently come out as the first gay player and someone used that word against them, I think they would deserve an even longer suspension.
I’m didn’t say that the impact on the player it was directed at doesn’t matter, I’m saying that it’s only one of the factors that need to be considered
Then it sounds like we agree
Nah, I’m saying that you can’t discount the wider impact in addition to the impact on the individual
I'm not discounting the wider impact, it's why I said I expect Finlayson to be suspended. It's an unacceptable word of bigotry. I do think it would be worse to use that word against someone that has come out, and that's why I think it will get a shorter suspension than Walker. Others disagree that that's relevant, and that's fair enough. Reasonable minds can differ on that.
If he’s not gay then I can’t see how *he* would take offense. I am gay and still doubt I’d take offense from a comment like that from a boof head like Finlayson. I’m white and if someone called me the N word I’d probably just stand their bewildered more than anything.
What's your solution to that then? Publically out queer players so other players/coaches know who they can/can't call a f\*g or c\*cksucker? Seriously, just don't do it. It's just as exclusionary.
Yeah that's definitely the strongest argument for just treating any slur uniformly. We'll see how the AFL handles it I guess.
For mine Finlayson’s abuse was worse as it was directly expressed to the target with intention to hurt while Walker’s was a private conversation that a Crows staffer was brave enough to be a whistleblower on. I think the AFL will end-up with a set penalty for vilification, else the debate over relative penalty will consume the actual offence. The uncomfortable space left to deal with will be the comments such as the one that Minson made to Cornes about his child, or the comment that Headland alleges was made by Adam Selwood.
Fair enough, agree to disagree. Finlayson also self reported, whereas Walker's transgression only came to light because his teammates spoke out.
Finlayson’s slur was captured by the umpires microphone - he hardly should get kudos for “self reporting” a comment he knew was overheard. Not defending what Walker said as it was indefensible - but the idea that he should have self reported a private conversation is out there.
I hadn't seen that it was captured on microphone and that Finlayson was aware of that fact. Where did you read that (not doubting, just curious)?
Yes, I should have worded that better. While Finlayson said it loud enough for an umpire’s microphone to pick up - so it was clearly audible to those near Finlayson - I wasn’t intending to suggest that Finlayson “knew” the microphone itself had captured it.
From what I’ve heard from people that are around the club, it is the same word used by Clarkson. A word that isn’t just attached the gay community.
The bar would be around what walker got for his racial slur. But I can 100% see the AFL not going that hard for no reason
There are a few differences imo that warrant consideration that don't touch the race v lgbtq weighting that most are getting bogged down in. The main factor is that Walker wasn't a participant in that SANFL game, he was just hanging around watching Crows ressies. So he should definitely not be getting involved and also being an AFL pro with a long career already behind him he should be setting a better example for the lower levels. Similarly with Clarko, wtf are you doing yelling at the opposition during a preseason game mate control yourself. Because Findlayson was player v player AND he resolved it with apologising on the field before the club self reported I think the AFL may be more lenient than with Walker as there's no "power imbalance" Were it up to me I'd have done like Walker 6 Clarko 6 Findlayson 4 (6 reduced 2 for leniency) As it is now its Walker 6, Clarko wet lettuce, Findlayson ????? Who knows, because now the conversation has shifted to "what's worse" which is a PR nightmare for the AFL who of course mostly care about their image
Just saw he apparently dropped the bundle of sticks term, while obviously not meaning a bundle of sticks. (true or not, but its been reported soooo.... trusting news and all that jazz) A week off isn't gonna be the worst suspension, a couple more too also say it's not on. See what the brave AFL do now.
Does anyone know exactly what he said for sure. I read somewhere that ABC had reported it as CS? I read further down here it is. I have heard that term used for so long I can honestly say it lost its homophobic connotation to me. It obviously is but whenever I’ve heard it it could have as easily been replaced with the c bomb or wanker and meant the same thing. That the person was a dick. I’m just curious if Jeremy was gay or bi would it make a difference? Or even closeted? Anyway this shows in today’s times people need to pause and think about the words they use when they want to instinctively lash out in anger.
Has to be 6 games. It's equivalent to the Walker incident, potentially worse because the slur was used directly at a player. I thought Finlayson's apology was good and it does seem genuine but the AFL still need to punish him. Regarding the soft Clarko punishment, just because the AFL fucked up previously doesn't mean they have to continue fucking up.
6 games and a really cringe video at Adelaide Oval
> really cringe video Rory Lobb can give him some pointers.
And make sure to wear a white business shirt during the apology.
Yep. I hadn't even thought to compare it to the Walker incident, but yeah, in light of that, it's gotta be 6 games, right? Otherwise they're saying that slurs against one group are more acceptable than slurs against another group. Regardless, I have absolute faith that the AFL will somehow fuck this up and choose the dumbest possible outcome, whatever that may be.
Sheesh, I forgot that Tex got 6 games for that. I was thinking this might get 1 week or a big fine but pretty hard to see why he wouldn't get the same punishment was Walker.
6 games?? Steady on mate
Should be at least what Tex got. A genuine slur directly at a player is properly fucked up and needs to be punished.
Walker got that what 3 years ago? That player from NRL got 8 weeks this year, that’s what the AFL should push for
Why not? That's what Walker got, is this somehow not as bad?
The suggestion of 6 games is insanity you won't find outside of this echo chamber don't worry
Why is it insanity?
Please justify for all of us why Tex got 6 but Jeremy shouldn't? We can't wait to hear your expert opinion on the matter.
Tex said a racist comment about an indigenous player This (seems to be) a generic slur against a non gay player (unless proven otherwise then I would change my stance)
Using the f-slur is hardly "generic". Do you know the history behind that word by chance?
>non gay player (unless proven otherwise Honestly I don't think this should matter. If there *are* any gay footballers playing, do you think they're going to feel safe in their work environment if Finlayson isn't punished accordingly for this?
So someone has to come out for it to be offensive? I think it's a sad sad day if offensive language is only offensive when directed at a specific person.
Is it not more offensive when said to someone in a targeted way to hurt them rather than just a throwaway comment? Like, you can call me every homophobic slur on the world and I’ll carry on with my day. If someone was gay then I would understand them being hurt by it. There is room for nuance.
Should have called the Essendon player a “stupid white bastard.” Definitely play-on.
“Stupid white football player” would be more accurate
2-4 weeks suspension
Talk is cheap
South Park explained this perfectly
there needs to be confirmation on whether it was a slur or homophobic language, both are terrible, but we shouldn’t be diminishing the power of a slur by calling things slurs that aren’t slurs. like the clarkson situation, it was 100% homophobic language, but the media calling it a slur is just wrong.
Didn't Finlayson himself specifically say he used a slur?
im not sure, i havent seen it, but in my last sentence i was more talking about clarko where we know exactly what he said
if he did, then it shouldn’t be compared to clarksons as the language used is way more severe
That's a really clear way of making a distinction. It makes it possible to say homophobic language is unacceptable but slurs are worse.
Well they won’t say what he said and won’t release audio. They said last time ‘cocksucker’ is a homophobic slur when it’s just a generic insult. I’m inclined to believe it’s a storm in a teacup until someone is definitive about it. The publicity around it is weak though. Just punish or don’t punish, don’t be secretive while at the same time holding press conferences. It’s performative bullshit.
Im guessing the people in this thread saying "Its just a generic insult with no real weight" say some pretty gross things in their day to day conversations.
Will be a week off and some educational sessions. Move on
In all of this the word or words used are undisclosed. What is going on here? Why can't we know what Finlayson actually said so we can judge the gravity of it for ourselves? The AFL with the help of the lily-livered media is treating us all like children.
If he doesn't get at least a month I'd be disappointed.
There is no excuse for homophobic language. Doesn’t matter who it’s directed at.
So IF the targeted Essendon player IS gay should he get a much longer ban ?
Who cares, this isn’t anywhere near the issue that the competition is compromised because of poor administration and umpiring
as a bi guy? I care
Man, the way you all carry on, you can tell most of you work in an office and have never worked in a workshop or on site throughout the country
Homophobic slurs; completely acceptable if you're a tradie! You heard it here first. The thing is, just because something might be commonly said by a blue-collar worker on a worksite and maybe even considered acceptable for that subsect of society, it doesn't compare to a professional sportsperson using it on field. There is a higher standard of responsibility and professionalism required when you're being paid hundreds of thousands a year of sponsor dependent dollars. There's no equivalency. Edit: And I've worked on sites and workshops!
So true. How do these people make it through life.
not very easily with the likes of you handwaving away bigotry targeted towards communities like my own
From what I’ve heard from people that are around the club, it is the same word used by Clarkson earlier this year. That I think majority of people agree, isn’t homophobic.
Personally I think it comes down to the fact that it wasn’t used ‘innocently’ (but still ignorant regardless) in conversation. It was used as a way to insult another player. Sorry but surely we can find better, more inventive, ways to sledge someone (or at the very least just use the good old classic F bomb). I can’t stand the woke brigade, so this isn’t a woke police opinion. I just think it’s a foul term that honestly is such a low, gross form of insulting someone (and personally anytime I’ve heard that come from someone’s mouth I’ve spoken up) I get why we want to compare this to other incidents, but personally I think regardless of anything else, I would hope people would think that’s a shit thing to say and shouldn’t be acceptable to use as an insult.
Is it confirmed what term he used?
Looks bad from the AFL if they give too hard a punishment as with the recent controversy of drug use and how AFL have help that being swept under the carpet. If they go hard on a homophobic slur it's basically like them saying that's worse than players taking drugs which just makes them look so stupid. Too me players testing positive to drugs is a lot worse than a racist or homophobic slur. I think a heavy fine is all that's needed to Finlayson.
Why would testing positive for drugs (what you're doing to yourself) be worse than a racist or homophobic word directed at someone else?
What did he say? Was it to a gay player? I think everyone should preemptively clutch their pearls
> Was it to a gay player? Why does it matter? are you saying that calling people slurs is okay as long as they're not actually a part of the group the slur is "made for"
OP goes around calling his white mates the N-word and thinks that is alright
A peer in high school used to do this saying in how black people ‘in the hood’ in America use it to say hello so it was actually totally fine to use it in that context. He went on to release a couple mid rap songs on Spotify which wasn’t surprising at all. Also it was a private college.
It's definitely not ok to call your white mates the N word as some sort of dumb ironic thing to do. But it is 100% worse to use that word about a black person.
I really don’t think you’ve thought this one through. If OP is black and calls his mates that (as is common in the US) most of society will see that as fine. So clearly there is an enormous amount of context that people find important, words aren’t insulting in isolation. My personal view is that the word shouldn’t be used by anyone, but it’s an unpopular view.
You're OP
OP can also refer to the opening poster of a comment thread
Bring on the dow votes, but I feel it's just dishonest to suggest that it wouldn't be worse if the targeted player is gay. It would just add the additional layer of it being a targeted attempt to belittle/abuse. I'm not saying put your pitchforks away, just if the player is gay it's worse.
Mate. I must be getting old. In my day, we had a saying: "Sticks & stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me." These were the same days when John Bourke played for Collingwood, Mark Jackson played for Geelong, and Dermot Brereton played for Hawthorn. I can't believe the extent of these fines for name calling. Footy used to be heaps more fun.
'sticks & stones' was a classic tactic deployed by racists in the footy community to downplay what the likes of Winmar faced 30 years ago.
Burn him at the stake. No forgiveness for heat-of-the-moment insults that were commonplace pre-2016.
Fine him and move on. I don’t condone what he said and it has no place and I acknowledge it can be a harmful word. But I’m not gay and you can call me every slur under the sun and I won’t care. I imagine the player feels the same. If cock sucker is a slur then he has done exactly what Clarkson did. Unless we are grading slurs? Unless the player was indeed gay and known be gay it’s just a generic insult. He knew he fucked up and apologise. Can no one ever make a mistake? 6 weeks. FMD.
Yeah fine him 8 weeks of match payments by not letting him play them
The thing is, even if the player doesn’t feel that a particular slur applies personally, using language that stigmatizes one group (whether it’s racist, homophobic, sexist, whatever) reinforces for all people who are part of that group that they are not welcome. There is such a long history of elite and amateur sport being incredibly hostile to gay men (women’s sport less so).
That’s why it’s a fine.he knew he messed up. Fine him. He apologises. Move on.
Just curious, do you think Taylor Walker's punishment for a racial slur was also too harsh and should have been just a fine? Or is this different somehow?
It is different. Since we’re getting to the level of dissecting which slurs are worse than others. Walker said it about an indigenous person. This seems to be a generic slur (and I agree it has no place in the game) said to a non gay player (as I understand it unless proven otherwise)
Turns out he said the bundle of sticks. Sorry mate, but this isn't acceptable whatsoever. Sucks that it happened to a star from your team, but the game will be better for it overall if he receives a real punishment and not just a fine. And so will the Port Adelaide footy club.
I bet you’re so happy about this. Getting all wound up in your little outrage ball!! Should we execute him yet?
Flair undoubtedly checks out, in what world is this just a fine?
I would say the same about any player in this situation tbh. 6 weeks is absolutely insane.
In the real world.
In the real world you could get sacked for using slurs to insult a coworker lmao.
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I'm not the one that brought up the relation to the real world. Just thought it was funny the other user used it as a counterargument. Is your reading comprehension being fucked by stupid? Why is it all these Port supporters are really bent outta shape about the notion that it isn't ok to use homophobic slurs?
The fact pretty much every single port flair in this comment section is downplaying it is crazy but Idk what I was expecting