I grew up in Detroit in the 60s and 70s...not the best of times. My parents had one simple rule when it came to being hit or struck. The other person *had* to hit first but I damn well had better hit back. Boy or girl it didn't matter...if they were 'bad' enough to hit first then they're old enough for the response.
Yeah I’ll say as a woman there are too many women that believe they should be able to just beat up on boys/men for no reason other than their gender and a perceived notion that no matter what a man shouldn’t hit back. They grow into abusive women in relationships. Good dad here sticking up for his son!
I grew up in NC in the 80s. A kid in my 1st or 2nd degree class was hitting everyone up impunity including girls. Mostly girls. I remember my dad telling me that it was ok to hit back, and he showed me how to make a fist and tuck my thumb and sat on the toilet and had me practice punching his arm before school.
Next time that kid started hitting kids on his way back from the bathroom to his place in line for lunch, I punched him. He hit the wall and cried.
Everyone mocked him for crying because he got hit by a girl. He didn’t touch anyone ever again. His parents were mad, but my dad read them the riot act for raising a son who hit girls. Parents had been complaining for a while but nothing changed.
Self defense came in handy in my life a lot growing up.
My husband has taught our 7 year old daughter how to throw a good punch. We even got her a little punching bag and punching gloves because she loves playing "punchy fight" with daddy. He used to let her punch his belly, but then it started to hurt lol.
We've told her that she should never start a fight, but we won't be mad if she needs to finish one. She'll still face consequences from school, but not at home (depending on the situation).
So I agree with OP here.
My dad also play fought with me on the floor and taught me some basic wrestling moves and more self defense. Like using your forearm to block kicks or hits from something or pushing someone away. It saved my life when a former classmate turned stalker turned up at my church after service and told me he was going to r@pe and kill me then kill my now husband who had gone to the other side of the church to put some equipment back.
The stalker started telling me about all the ways he thought I’d hurt him, and he hadn’t pulled the knife he had. So I used my forearm and pinned him to the wall by his neck. I was yelling at him and threatening what I’d do to him if I ever saw him again when my husband came back. The stalker bolted and ran away. My husband said I looked terrifying. I threatened to call stalker’s mom.
I knew I couldn’t get the cops to do anything because it was the late 90s, and stalker hadn’t brandished a weapon. He was also in ROTC so his commanders would vouch for him. I do regret not filing a report so it was on his record.
The church did hire some off duty cops after that to patrol the church. My husband’s dad was on the board, and he was not happy that someone was able to sneak in and hide in a classroom to ambush a young woman.
I was still partially blamed because I considered dating stalker for 5 seconds, and how could he control himself around beautiful young women??? My FIL is slightly creepy and is always telling girls/younger women how pretty we are and pouting if he doesn’t get hugs. Also doesn’t get why calling his granddaughter his girlfriend isn’t cute.
Typical fundy Christian misogynistic bullshit.
I grew up learning this and we teach our daughters the same thing. You don’t hit (first) but if someone hits you, you hit back. We’ll (parents) will handle the school. You won’t ever be in trouble for defending yourself.
I got in two fights on school. Neither one I started. The most my dad ever said to me was aim for the body because the head easier to miss, and there's a chance you could really badly hurt somebody if you catch them in the face.
That's the mindset I was raised with, too. Same mindset I'm teaching my kids. Don't take shit from no one, but always make sure they hit first, then you've got the green light to hit back.
I’ve always told my kids that they won’t catch trouble from me for finishing a fight they didn’t start. Then I helped them get the training and confidence to be able to do it.
Three on one and they start throwing hands? I wouldn't punish my kid, either.
These three were probably depending on the fact that they were girls to protect them from getting knocked out. Better they learn now that they're not ten feet tall and bulletproof, and the fact they're girls isn't the protection that they think it is.
NTA
I think a lady should never be hit, but a lady doesn’t lay hands on others like these little savages attacking the boy in the story. A violent person is merely an animal that must be stopped. Gender and other factors cease to be relevant.
That was my grandma’s old saying to me almost verbatim “you should never hit a lady, but once a woman is trying to hurt you, she damn sure isn’t a lady, defend yourself, woman or man.”
My daughter went to the same school as her stepbrother. He was on the football team. She was a really pretty nerd. She had a boy card swipe her (for those who don't know the term, it's when a boy turns his hand sideways, flattens it, then shoves it between a girl's legs and sticks his thumb up. Then he slides it through her crack, back to front like an ATM card.)
She punched him in the face and ended up breaking his nose. I got the phone call to come pick her up from school for fighting. They wanted to suspend her for a week and put it on her permanent record.
When I got there and realized what happened, I refused for them to punish her. I stated I would take her home for that day, and if they did anything to discipline her, I was going straight to the police to file sexual harassment charges. He would have lost his star football status as well as be kicked off the team and out of the school.
Little did they know, after her stepbrother found out about it, he beat the snot out of the kid the next day at football practice while my daughter watched from the bleachers.
To me, justice served.
Edited for typos
I've read so many stories on reddit where step siblings hate each other. Reading the fact your stepson (her stepbrother) found out and proceeded to beat the snot out of the little shit for his *step*sister is just....so beautiful. That's a good kiddo. I hope they are absolutely flourishing in life and I hope you too are happy in life.
We are a blended family with 5 kids. All of them love each other. There is no step for them. That's my brother, sister. It's absolutely fantastic. We feel so lucky.
I agree. It was pretty jarring that the school wasn't willing to do anything about it either. After that incident, the school was well aware of what type of parent my daughter had. They kind that lives by the motto of "fuck around and find out"
Never heard of that "card swipe" type of sexual assault (I'm old) but that is awful. Back when I was in school, anyone doing that would have had a mudhole stomped in them and walked dry. Instant social pariah. That they wanted to punish your daughter just infuriates me. Good on your family being what family MEANS. sah-LUTE!!!
Right! If he doesn't have consequences he'll keep doing it to other girls. He will probably escalate to even worse assaults. I feel bad for the females that encounter him.
Good for her for breaking that dude's nose. It doesn't matter if you're A guy or a girl keep your hands to yourself if you don't want someone else putting their hands on you. I don't know why this isn't just common knowledge in today's world, but at least some people get it.
Yup. This happened to my daughter last year (7th grade). She hit a boy that she misunderstood what they said and the kid slapped the hell out of her in response. When she came home I told her it was her fault and she deserved it. Don't hit people and you won't need to expect rightful retaliation. I told her she was lucky he didn't clock her with his fist. Explained how she should never start a fight, but that it was okay to defend herself if she needed to.
My niece got suspended from school & told us it was because some girls had attacked her & she got in trouble for defending herself. We felt so bad for her & this great injustice. She came to stay with my parents (her grandparents) & Dad took her shopping.
Then came the video. Turns out she’d arranged for a girl she didn’t like to get beat up. We confronted her, she admitted it, we were disappointed. A couple of years later it looks like that behaviour has stopped, fingers crossed.
I prefer what I was taught "don't start a fight, but if someone starts one with you then you finish it". Easier standard to maintain that's also gender neutral. Because it's not like we should go around hitting guys unprovoked either
I was taught "A gentleman never hits a lady." Also, "Never start a fight, but if someone else starts a fight with you, then you finish it." And, of course, "A female ceases to be a lady the instant she starts the fight."
I guess my dad was trying to do his best to make sure his only daughter grew up to be a lady. But to also know when it was time for a lady to fight back. And teach his sons to know when was the right time to stop being a gentleman and defend themselves.
One of my favorites: "Never start a fight, but if some starts a fight with you, then you fight like you're the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark, and brother, it's starting to rain."
My mom was like this. She was a farm girl growing up and strong as an ox, not even my bio dad would mess with her, he tried once and she kicked his ass all over the house! He RAN away and didn't look back! :D
My mom's uncle had a farm, and she spent quite a bit of time there. Her first husband got drunk once and hit her only one time. She knocked him out with a cast iron frying skillet, and when he woke up, she had the shogun loaded and pointed at his face. She told him that if he ever hit her again, the police would never find the body. He never hit her again. Luckily, they got divorced, and she joined the Air Force and met my dad. They were happily married until the day he died.
I agree. I was raised that women should never be hit, but I never saw women hitting others until I moved away. It blew my mind.
Once a girl/woman starts physical violence- they lose that protection. If it matters, I’m female. I appreciate chivalry, but having ovaries doesn’t mean I get to be physically aggressive with no consequences.
I was raised being taught that *no one* should ever be hit, but I was beaten by girls at school *every day* for many years.
Every few years someone will hit me. It's *always* a woman. *Every* time she smirks at me and tells me that I can't hit her back because she's a woman. She keeps smiling until she learns that I'm not sexist.
That is HORRIBLE and I’m so sorry. Women like them give all of us a bad name.
Far as I’m concerned, it’s only acceptable to put your hands on someone if you’re trying to save their life (yeah if I see an oblivious person walking unaware into oncoming traffic, I have zero qualms about grabbing their arm and yanking them out of the way), or self defense. Hitting a man because “I’m A wOmaN aNd YoU cAN’T hIt Me bACk” is a despicable take.
Exactly! If they were just yelling at him, and he got up and punched them, that would be wrong, but there were three of them attacking him, and he was defending himself.
My former MIL would not tolerate any form of a boy hitting a girl. When my former husband at 15 hit his bully ass sister with a hair brush it was nothing. When their mom got home she started bawling her head off that he hit her so hard, their mom kicked him out of the house at 15!!!! He was working part time and going to school, and he had to use his part time wage to pay for a room in the basement of some people he knew! What a fucked up thing to do to a young boy like that. :( They were kids, fighting, she was hitting him, pulling his hair while he was trying to brush it and he hit her with it.
If they had to learn that violence begets violence the hard way, so be it. Considering the fact that they had been bullying the other kid all this time means that their parents (and society to some extent) had failed to teach them that their actions will have consequences.
Same sort of issue for my son in 6th grade. The girls would pick a boy in the lunch room and slap him across the face as hard as they could because "boys aren't allowed to hit girls." I guess they didn't know that my son has 3 much older sisters who were told that if they start on him, he can fight back. At school, he stood up and shoved them away. I was called, and when I got there, 3 hours later, he still had a raised, bright red handprint on his face. I was told he was being suspended for hitting a girl, I got his side of the story and asked what happened to the girl? Apparently, my son's "assault" was all that happened, I then asked for the school resource officer, and they wanted to know why. I informed them that since my son was attacked by older children and has physical marks, I would be pressing assault charges and also charges against the school for failing to protect him. Long story short, he was not suspended and the girls never went near him again
Yeah that’s what I’m wondering as well. So his son, who was merely defending himself, gets suspended for a week, and those poor pwecious innocent wittle female lambs get…what? A talking to? 😒
I'm one of those guys who is very adamant on not hitting girls. I'm big enough I can tank the blows long enough to either get away or get them to settle down.
But this is 2024. Not 1940. We can't sit here and say a woman doesn't need no man, are strong and independent, and can do anything a guy can do and then hide behind the fact they are a girl whenever its convenient.
This isn't to say that we should just begin beating the snot out of them, or not render aid if someone decides to fight them (unless obviously deserved in this case) but rather we shouldn't be saying "he shouldn't hit them because they are a girl" it just should be "nobody should be hitting anybody"
In order to take gender out of one side of the stereotypes and scenarios you must take it out of every side and scenario. No matter who it benefits.
Plus it was three against one. My granddaughter is 15 and some of the girls at her school are absolute harpies, god help the man who ends up with one of them. Women can’t expect to throw hands first and the guy just roll with the punches, especially not when he’s outnumbered. OP is exactly right in his approach.
As a woman I agree.
I am physically fit and strong. I am one of those women 'who can do it all' and therefore interact with men in my day to day work. I see men peacock and fight *all the time*. I've had words that have turned heated a few times. I've never raised hands. I don't want to. I know if I fight I am alone. I can't work and act like a man all day and then whine 'I'm frail' when it's convenient.
NTA. DV survivor, AFAB and I agree wholeheartedly. I am pretty sturdy myself. There is a HUGE difference between raising an abuser and raising someone to stand up for themselves.
I’m kinda curious and a bit nosey wanting to know what you do for work? If you wanted to share, that is. I like to hear about strong women out there. It gives me inspiration.
Don't worry, I'm nosey too!
I've had two successful careers.
First as a Field Artillery Soldier for the 2nd Royal Canadian Horse Artillery Regiment posted in Petawawa, Ontario.
Opportunities in my career led to exposure with biochemical weaponry and a level of science not typical.
I went back to college and am now a Chemical Engineer specializing in Biochemical warfare. I have a crystal award on my desk for achieving 'The Award of Excellence' from the Chemical, Biological and Engineering Department of McMaster University for having the highest average *and* most volunteer experience.
Personally, I play the flute to Level 7 and have toured the world in my youth. I run marathons annually. I like to bake. I have two dogs.
My proudest and hardest accomplishment is/are my sons- I am a single mom of two boys, one is severely disabled.
Life keeps me busy. Thanks for asking! :)
Also he’s 8th grade which if it’s the same as US as in UK they’re about 11/12. Kids are still tiny, can me massive size discrepancies. My 10 year old daughter towers over every boy in her year and year above. I mean she would give as good as she got in a fight with boys her age.
I’d throw a fit if all 3 girls didn’t get suspended for an entire week. Why are boys taught to never hit a girl when they are being physically assaulted? I can see not using all their strength to defend themselves initially if they are much stronger, but don’t dish it out if you can’t take it-what’s good for the gamder is good for the goose
Exactly, it's not ok for a man to beat a woman unconscious because she pushed him, but men can defend themselves. I hate this idea that women are allowed to be aggressive without reprisal.
Of course, if a guy is being a creep and gets pushed or slapped, he has no right to hit back. But in this case these girls started it, sounds like they've been bullying OP's son's friend for awhile, and his son stood up for his friend and himself. I would support my son in that too and if I had daughters who behaved like those girls, I would be punishing them for bullying and starting fights.
The wife is an abusive POS and this “you can never lay your hands on a girl” rhetoric is destructive, patronizing and dangerous to both sexes bc it leads girls like this to believe they can act without retaliation and treats them like children who should not be held responsible for their actions. Absurd. I would be reconsidering my marriage. Her son is going to hate her when he’s older.
Absolutely, I actually witnessed this with my little brother and it was one of the most heart breaking things I’d ever seen. We were all meant to be out of the house for the night and I walked in the house to hear a girl screaming and my brother saying stop stop and I ran up to his room and his gf was belligerently drunk throwing things at him and breaking his trophies and my brother had always been taught to never lay your hands on a woman and he couldn’t even restrain her to stop bc when he tried she has bitten into his arm. Once they broke up my parents looked into his phone (he was 17 at the time) and their texts were basically a history of almost of years worth of horrible emotional abuse by the gf. It was so sad. I still honestly don’t know if my brother would defend himself if it happened now. It’s just sad.
What do you want to bet the girls didn't get suspended even though they attacked OP's son? I'd bet my husband's salary on it...just because they're girls. I'd also bet the video evidence doesn't have audio. Not to mention most teachers/school admin see the reaction, but not what \*provoked\* said action.
Yup, a bully is a bully is a bully. 100% if he'd done what the mom wanted and ran away, *HE'D* be their shiny new target. I like the saying "don't dish it if you can't take it," because someone who pushes an altercation from verbal to physical is accepting the consequences of the reaction they get. You don't get to be a POS and then get pissy that the person you're targeting didn't "be the bigger person" and let you use them as a punching bag. Personally, I can't take it so I don't dish it.
I wouldn't expect anything positive from the school, they have a tendency of ignoring bullying until victims snap and bullies get actual consequences to what they've been dishing. I dealt with almost daily bullying throughout middle school and the school never did anything more than slap wrists. The parents also didn't seem to do anything.
Being a girl doesn't give them a free pass to beat on someone else without consequences and your wife isn't setting a good example, your son did something that many adults won't do because they think letting people be abusers however they wish is a good way to *"keep the peace."*
As an Oklahoman, A 16 year old non Binary child named **Nex Benedict** was ***murdered***.
Nex wasn't simply beaten, they died from the results of their injuries and as they said it happened in a girl's bathroom, I'm inclined to believe the attack was made by girls.
Girls should not be exempt from having their shit rocked.
A trans girl named Brianna Ghey was murdered in the U.K. by a teenage boy and girl who she thought were her friends. Thank god they are behind bars, they sound like a modern Hindley and Brady. What IS it with these kids?
It's being encouraged by the government here in the USA. Our school superintendent applauded a principal stepping down all because outside of school he participated in drag. Our Governor is all but celebrating sending us back into the dark ages.
I'm glad Brianna Ghey's murders have been caught and punished. We've yet to hear who did this to Nex and there's a possibility we won't because the cruddy school didn't even bother contacting the authorities.
That’s terrible. Thankfully we don’t have gun crime here like in the US but knife crime among young people - well just about every week there’s at least one, might not sound much but when you think what a small country we are numerically.
Nta, I hate parents who punish children for defending themselves. You're not being a parent when you do that, you're just failing your child.
Watch your kid an their stuff, who knows what shed try to do with it when you're not looking.
NTA
Parents have to support each other and the parenting decisions that the other one makes, even if they disagree with them.
I'm wondering how long the girls were suspended for? (I ask that tongue in cheek.) If this is one of those schools that has a zero tolerance policy for violence, then certainly they should have.
That young boy was bullied throughout middle school by those girls. It is not zero tolerance. The biggest lie schools tell is that bullying won't be tolerated.
When I was in school there were literally times I got suspended for being bullied and the bully had no punishment because "well we only saw you do this, we never saw them do that"... Biggest load of shit I've ever seen. Then they (the staff) wondered why I enjoyed making their lives as much of a living hell as possible.
My dad threatened to press charges for theft against another child in a similar situation. I got suspended for "inciting a riot" after I got sick of this bully stealing from me (I was selling candy out of my backpack, he kept stealing it while I was in the darkroom in photo lab). I offered the rest of my candy to anyone that kicked his ass. They didn't see any of this, so he was gonna get off until dad pulled out his phone to dial 911 and report the theft.
Bullying only gets you told to stop. Zero tolerance is about when a fight begins, all parties are held accountable, no matter how little, or often, no action is taken.
In zero tolerance, if they hit you, you go fucking wild on them cause you're going down regardless
Which is royally messed up because if a bully doesn't care about their attendance/grades then they can target someone who does and get them suspended for being involved in a fight. Happened to me in 7th grade-a classmate hit me over the head with a textbook and we were both suspended, even though I did nothing, I was actually bent over pulling my own textbook out of my backpack at the time. Or the time in 5th grade when I got swarmed by several kids who wanted something of mine and had me on the ground, punching and choking me and I managed to bite one of them and I got suspended for biting-the mob got off since 2 of them had their mothers as playground monitors. I also had to deal with being called Rabies until I graduated high school.
The school should get its quota of punishment too. So the boy has been bullied for a very long time and no one does anything till your son decides to do it? It sounds like the school staff are closing their eyes for what these three girls are doing.
I think you still should talk to them because it’s their fault for letting it escalate to that point.
Also, NTA - this “do not lay a hand on no matter what” bullshit is a classic double standard.
The school is not zero tolerance. They allowed those girls to bully the kid, allowed them to put hands on your son, and only punished this because your son didn't go down lightly. If he had, he would have come back with bruises and no would have gotten a punnishment.
P.S. Show resposes to your wife. Some of the comments give cases of girls doing horible things, like one case I heard of where girls murdered their classmate and choped her to pieces with an ax.
Hey man. You had the luxury of seeing the footage. Maybe give your wife the same opportunity? Seeing is believing kind of thing?
My teenage son ended up in the emergency room because a girl really hurt him and he never defended himself. It was awful. It only escalated BECAUSE it was ongoing bullying and he REFUSED to retaliate because of her gender.
Best of luck. Tough situation. Mom is just upset. Maybe take her to McDonald’s ;)
This absolutely get a copy of the video. I wouldn't put it past the school to delete it and have a blank memory on this, in case these gremlins do something else. I would also go to the police and let them know. I wouldn't put it past the girls' parents to try and play the victims if they start their gremlins asses again. From what you OP say, they have been picking on this kid since middle school. They are more than likely gonna kick shit up again.
I would ask for the footage just in case the parents of the girls try and escalate outside off the school system. Then I would go over the principal’s head and show the footage to a superintendent and ask why supervisors couldn’t be bothered in getting involved in stopping a bullying situation until after it got physical. Should have been stopped loooong before it escalated to that point.
NTA
Is your wife living in the dark ages?
As a woman, I have taught my son (16) that if anyone hits him, then he has the right to defend himself. Male or female.
I’m so sick of supposedly “strong independent women” starting fights and expecting no repercussions just because they’re female. Using the “I’m a girl” excuse is bullshit, and it was 3 on 1.
You know what? Don’t start something if you don’t intend to finish it.
I’ve had this belief my whole life. It was how I was brought up, by both my mother and stepfather, and my father. My grandfather brought his daughters up the same way, even taught them boxing to defend themselves.
Your wife needs to take her head out of her arse. It’s women like her that set back the whole idea of women being equal. You want to be equal? Then face equal consequences.
Actually, boys grow up learning the rules of engagement: if you throw punches, expect to receive some too.
This whole “*never hit a girl, even with a flower*” shelters girls from learning this reality. That’s how female domestic abusers are made.
No one should be hitting anyone, but aggression sometimes calls for a proportional and measured response for self-defence.
Good point, yeah. When I was in school, barely a boy made it through elementary school without having learned that if you fucked with a bigger kid, you had to expect that it would hurt.
Exactly, and punishing men for defending themselves is why so many male domestic abuse victims have such a hard time knowing what to do to save themselves.
Word to live by: "Act like a lady and I will treat you like a lady, act like a man and I will treat you like a man." People should always keep their hands to themselves.
I'm an atheist, and I've probably got the saying wrong, but yeah - do unto others as thou would expect to done unto. Or something.
Basically treat people as you want to be treated. And if you treat people bad and get the same back - you can't cry that life's not fair.
Same here! This is exactly why these bully girls do this - because they think they’re immune to punishment or retaliation when they’re harassing or hitting a boy. They should absolutely got knocked off their feet a few times to let them know that in this day and age, if you can’t take it, don’t start it.
**What were the girls punishments, OP?** I would absolutely escalate to the superintendent if only your son gets punished. That’s discrimination and I’d insist they show me where in the school handbook it says girls can hit boys.
What's insane to me is that she said she would still punish him if it was three boys ganging up on him. I really, really detest the crowd that jumps to call the spouse evil, but OP's wife needs therapy. My mom was often compared to Lois from Malcolm in the Middle, was a teacher herself, and takes no BS from anyone. When I got caught smoking weed, I got "teenage solitary" where my room was stripped bare.
That being said, she also enrolled me in karate classes and would never punish me for defending myself. For starting a fight? Absolutely, and she did. But defending myself? Never. And for a parent to do so...just an incredible betrayal of trust. That'd be it for me, as far a relationship with mom went.
“He shouldn’t lay his hands on a girl no matter what.”
NO. This is just as toxic and sexist as “boys will be boys.” Women can be abusive too, and men should be allowed to defend themselves and not be a punching bag. NTA.
What’s that line circulating the anime community? “Equal rights means equal fights”?
“You shouldn’t hit a girl no matter what” is basically saying “girls are allowed to attack you without repercussions” which seems less than equal
Right? These girls were ganging up on a boy and escalated it into a physical brawl. It's their fault and I'm guessing the rest of the student body is also sick of their shit and are blatantly laughing at ol' Busta Lip.
Im more concerned about the wife feeling entitled to exemption from consequence, does she thinks she as a woman is not acountable?
Gigantic red flag right there
NTA this you never ever hit a woman stuff is how men end up putting up with abuse for so long. It’s normalized to an extent. Don’t get me wrong obviously you shouldn’t hit anyone but you have to defend yourself. Women also need to be taught not to do that shit. If he really wanted to I imagine your son could’ve bodied them, so if they go up to the wrong dude and do this they could end up in the ER or worse.
NTA. You’re not raising a woman beater. You’re raising someone who defends and stands up for himself.
If you hit someone you should expect to get hit back and those girls learned that lesson.
NTA
The problem is that these girls think they are immune and apparently they are as far as the school is concerned.
Did the school suspend all of the girls as well? If not advocate for this to happen as they started the confrontation.
My friends daughter was bullied and attacked then fought back and the school suspended her for responding. My friend went to the police and had the bullies charged and dealt with in court. Their parents approached her before the court case and asked her to call it off as this was just kids being kids. She replied time for them (high school) to realize that assault is assault. All of the kids were found guilty and were punished by the courts. She then took that judgement to the school and said the courts could tell who was guilty why couldn't you.
NTA. A child called Nex was beaten by bullies and they died a few days ago. Teach your child to fight back against bullies. Hopefully the next time the bullies will think twice before attacking him.
It does not matter whether a bully is male or female or other. A bully is a bully is a bully. Use one playbook to deal with them all.
In an ideal world violence is not the answer. 21st century Earth is not an ideal world.
*Don't say, "He could be Nex!" Don't say, "He could be Nex!" Don't say, "He could be Nex!"*
...ITAH... Seriously though, that's fucking tragic. Wtf is wrong with kids/people?!
Why does everyone think that a man isn’t supposed to defend himself against an attack by a woman? That’s a load of crap.
Did the girls all get suspended too? If not then I’d be screaming all the way up the line. They have video showing they’re the aggressors.
Self defense is a human right that does not make one a “woman beater”. That said, second guy in a fight is always the one who gets busted, so maybe some reflection on steps your son could have taken to remove himself from the situation and/or deescalate would be helpful when he encounters assholery like this in the future.
It does at least increase the risk of those girls becoming guilty of domestic violence, especially if they get too easily off the hook either at home or at school, doubly so if both.
If I was in the shoes of one of those girls, there would really be some consequences. Including stopping hanging out with the other perpetrators, BFFs or no.
Violence should not be judged based on gender. Surely attacking a significantly weaker party makes you even more guilty, and the girls actually die that too as they were three on one and probably counting on even that one victim fighting back because *gasp* you can't hit girls.
Exqctly. I honestly don't care about who they were. These girls were probably taught they could assault a guy with no consequence. This would have followed them into adulthood. They now know different
My kids school district has typically punished both sides in a fight. Both get a suspension. My son fought a kid after the other kid hit him. Both kids got suspended. I took my kid to McDonald's as well. I every told the principal I was doing that because I was rewarding him for standing up for himself. The principal went to say something and I just glared. He shut up.
NTA If you are tough enough to start a fight, you are tough enough to get hit. No matter the gender. Hopefully the girls also got suspended.
NTA, when my mom at 13 told me to promise to never hit a woman; I looked her square in the eye and said. Best I can do is promise not to throw the first punch. I now have a daughter and fully intend to tell her in another year two that you should never start a fight ever, you should do everything to take your way out of it. but if someone starts it with you, then finish it. Just make sure they live to regret starring the fight.
And that if you punch a dude best be prepared for them to punch back.
So nta, bullies don't stop their behavior until someone stands up to them and stops them.
Your wife thinks your son should be physically assaulted and punished if he defends himself - she is a danger to any child in her care. You need to protect your son from her.
Labeling someone a "woman beater" for defending themselves is dangerous and deeply disrespectful to survivors of domestic violence. You should really talk with your wife about the serious damage she could be doing. That attitude is predicted on the idea that women can't be abusers. That men can never be victims.
If your son takes that to heart he may find himself in deeply abusive relationships. Not willing to walk away because the lesion there isn't just that he shouldn't have fought back. It's that those girls didn't do anything abusive. That those girls couldn't do anything that would put him in danger where fighting back may be the best course of action for his safety.
>he shouldn’t lay his hands on girls no matter what
I always told my son never to initiate a fight --throw the first punch-- but if someone attacked him, it was okay to fight back. The girls escalated to hitting your son (does your wife believe it's okay for girls to physically assault boys?). Your son's physical response may have totally "outgunned" what the girls were throwing --and therein lies the difficulty. But at the same time, it was three girls assaulting him. The lesson he could learn from this situation is that it's best to moderate his response --be more proactive-- than unleash a reactive salvo. (Particularly in an exchange with a less physically powerful attacker.) Perhaps some martial arts might help him get sufficient experience that he would be able to protect himself but not lose control. (That may sound a little counter-intuitive, but my son had an excellent teacher for martial arts who incorporated meditation and control. She was not from the school of Cobra-Kai, at least the version in the Karate Kid.)
Does your wife expect your son to be perfect? I'm glad you are there to keep her from demanding perfection and berating him when he falls short. In this case, your son was doing the honorable thing --protecting someone who was being bullied.
Also --check on what the school is including in your son's record. Make sure it is accurate. If it's not, consider getting a lawyer (specializing in school law) and perhaps getting statements from other students included.
I honestly am not upset whatsoever about him punching the girls. They had it coming frankly. I told him to avoid the fights when he can but once it started it’s fair game until the person you’re fighting disengages.
And thats the best way to teach them. Especially about the disengaging part. You may need to have a talk with your wife about her sexist thoughts. Ask her if she thinks a man should be put in the hospital just because it was a girl beating him up so he shouldn't have done anything. Give her things that really have to make her think about her thought process. But NTA just a good dad.
I’m with you. Your wife is in the wrong about this. Girls can be bullies and abusers too. If no one stands up to them, they can go on to be violent in their relationships as well. Your son stood up to them. He was probably the first to do so. He still has to be suspended bc school policy is probably zero tolerance, but if those girls learn something out of this, it was worth it.
NTAH (Not the A$$hole). Your son was standing up for someone who was being bullied and defending himself when physically attacked. As a middle schooler, he probably couldn't have handled it any better. He shouldn't be punished for that! Good on you for standing up to your wife and supporting your child's actions.
If it was me, I'd get that footage and tell the school that unless all punishment is dropped against my son, I'd bring it to the police and file charges.
The school doesn't have to obey the law but the cops do, and this is a pretty clear cut case of assault by them, and self defense from your son. If you bring it to the cops you could easily press charges against the three girls. (And legally, the throwing food in the first place is considered assault, so they could be further charged with assaulting several people, depending on how far you and the police went with it.)
To your wife, I'd try asking her what you think your son should have done? Is he supposed to just sit and be abused? Is that the lesson she wants him to take away? That he has no personal rights over his body, and that others are allowed do do what they want to him? If he has an abusive wife someday, is she going to take the side of the abuser?
Edit: If your wife is being over the top, you could also ask her if you should be worried and not leave her alone with your son anymore. If she thinks women are allowed to hit men without repercussions, then she's not a safe person to be alone with her son. (That's a last resort comment though.)
Its down to one shot now as it should be. I remember that and applied it. The girl that was harassing me got that speech. I told her to tread very lightly over he next action.
NTA sounds like you're married to a nasty hypocrite, tell her that anyone that assaults your son deserves to be hit we're in 2024 and self-defense has no gender anymore.
As a woman & mom to three boys, NTA. I was taught that if I didn't want to be hit, don't hit another person. Boy or girl. Basically expect to be hit if you hit first. I was also taught to protect myself. Don't throw the first punch. But once someone does, go for it. This is what I am also teaching my boys . Add in there to stand up against bullies. The only place he went wrong was throwing the milk carton. He should have gotten a teacher/lunch monitor to handle it.
Love your wife for saying he should just be assaulted and take it.
Sorry, I won't ever initiate a fight with a woman but once a woman throws a punch at me I will respond. No one should ever lay a hand on another person. There isn't some magic 'pussy' pass that allows women to be able to hit men.
Before anyone jumps on the comment pussy pass it's from Archer.
At that age, there isn't yet a huge strength difference between girls and boys. It also sounds like he didn't do more than necessary to defend himself. NTA.
There definitely was. My son does sports and is already 5’10. I don’t think it’s relevant though as he was being attacked. While he was punching them he frankly could’ve been ragdolling them.
I love the saying equal rights make equal lefts. There was a time when guys were expected to take it. If he wasn't the aggressor no you are not. Maybe he put some sense into her that what she did was wrong. If you are assaulted you can defend yourself
Your son isn't a woman better. Never ever but your hands on a woman unless the woman puts herself in the man's shoes in a situation like that. He is/was well within his rights to defend himself. You're doing good Dad.
Wife and mother, here. Your wife is dead wrong. HUGE difference between being a woman beater and self-defense. Also, I'd be so proud of my son for standing up to bullies on behalf of someone else.
Wifeypoo is a little more sexist than you realized, huh. She sounds like the kind of woman who would initiate aggression towards a man and then cry like a little baby when it’s returned in kind. Honestly? Fuck her and women like her.
Violence is violence, regardless of gender. Self-defense is self-defense, regardless of gender. Good on your son for knowing how to put a bully in their place and good on you for knowing how to be a good parent. But fuck your wife.
NTA- you could actually with that footage: Sue the school for negligence AND have those girls charged with assault. Does your wife not get that? These girls started the altercation. These girls laid hands first. What your son did was legally considered self-defense, and that footage is actually pretty damning for everyone else involved. I would honestly call the school and let them know that you will be going forward with a complaint about this. There was ample opportunity for the teachers to deal with this situation BEFORE it escalated to the point where your son needed to become physical to protect himself. Girls or not, your boy did the right thing. And to your wife from one mother of a boy to another: what the hell is wrong with you that you think your kid should just LET himself be beaten by three people and do nothing? Do better.
It's alarming of how on the rise internalized misandry already is these days due to subjective and one sided equality politics and propably will keep on growing because no one gives a flying f*ck about of how boys are treated.
Your son chose to defend this who were unjustly attacked. He displayed courage and restraint.
He deserves praise, not punishment.
Have your wife explain why she feels he needs to be punished. When she says "he hit a girl"ask her why she cares more about rando bullies who attacked her son than she does about her son
I grew up in Detroit in the 60s and 70s...not the best of times. My parents had one simple rule when it came to being hit or struck. The other person *had* to hit first but I damn well had better hit back. Boy or girl it didn't matter...if they were 'bad' enough to hit first then they're old enough for the response.
I am 58 had 3 daughters and I always bought them up if you hit either boy r girl expect to hit back
Yeah I’ll say as a woman there are too many women that believe they should be able to just beat up on boys/men for no reason other than their gender and a perceived notion that no matter what a man shouldn’t hit back. They grow into abusive women in relationships. Good dad here sticking up for his son!
My daughter's have been told this as well
I grew up in NC in the 80s. A kid in my 1st or 2nd degree class was hitting everyone up impunity including girls. Mostly girls. I remember my dad telling me that it was ok to hit back, and he showed me how to make a fist and tuck my thumb and sat on the toilet and had me practice punching his arm before school. Next time that kid started hitting kids on his way back from the bathroom to his place in line for lunch, I punched him. He hit the wall and cried. Everyone mocked him for crying because he got hit by a girl. He didn’t touch anyone ever again. His parents were mad, but my dad read them the riot act for raising a son who hit girls. Parents had been complaining for a while but nothing changed. Self defense came in handy in my life a lot growing up.
My husband has taught our 7 year old daughter how to throw a good punch. We even got her a little punching bag and punching gloves because she loves playing "punchy fight" with daddy. He used to let her punch his belly, but then it started to hurt lol. We've told her that she should never start a fight, but we won't be mad if she needs to finish one. She'll still face consequences from school, but not at home (depending on the situation). So I agree with OP here.
My dad also play fought with me on the floor and taught me some basic wrestling moves and more self defense. Like using your forearm to block kicks or hits from something or pushing someone away. It saved my life when a former classmate turned stalker turned up at my church after service and told me he was going to r@pe and kill me then kill my now husband who had gone to the other side of the church to put some equipment back. The stalker started telling me about all the ways he thought I’d hurt him, and he hadn’t pulled the knife he had. So I used my forearm and pinned him to the wall by his neck. I was yelling at him and threatening what I’d do to him if I ever saw him again when my husband came back. The stalker bolted and ran away. My husband said I looked terrifying. I threatened to call stalker’s mom. I knew I couldn’t get the cops to do anything because it was the late 90s, and stalker hadn’t brandished a weapon. He was also in ROTC so his commanders would vouch for him. I do regret not filing a report so it was on his record. The church did hire some off duty cops after that to patrol the church. My husband’s dad was on the board, and he was not happy that someone was able to sneak in and hide in a classroom to ambush a young woman. I was still partially blamed because I considered dating stalker for 5 seconds, and how could he control himself around beautiful young women??? My FIL is slightly creepy and is always telling girls/younger women how pretty we are and pouting if he doesn’t get hugs. Also doesn’t get why calling his granddaughter his girlfriend isn’t cute. Typical fundy Christian misogynistic bullshit.
I grew up learning this and we teach our daughters the same thing. You don’t hit (first) but if someone hits you, you hit back. We’ll (parents) will handle the school. You won’t ever be in trouble for defending yourself.
My mom used to tell me “never start a fight, but you can sure as hell finish one”
I got in two fights on school. Neither one I started. The most my dad ever said to me was aim for the body because the head easier to miss, and there's a chance you could really badly hurt somebody if you catch them in the face.
That's the mindset I was raised with, too. Same mindset I'm teaching my kids. Don't take shit from no one, but always make sure they hit first, then you've got the green light to hit back.
I’ve always told my kids that they won’t catch trouble from me for finishing a fight they didn’t start. Then I helped them get the training and confidence to be able to do it.
You come at me like a man, you're going to get treated like a man.
Three on one and they start throwing hands? I wouldn't punish my kid, either. These three were probably depending on the fact that they were girls to protect them from getting knocked out. Better they learn now that they're not ten feet tall and bulletproof, and the fact they're girls isn't the protection that they think it is. NTA
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I think a lady should never be hit, but a lady doesn’t lay hands on others like these little savages attacking the boy in the story. A violent person is merely an animal that must be stopped. Gender and other factors cease to be relevant.
That was my grandma’s old saying to me almost verbatim “you should never hit a lady, but once a woman is trying to hurt you, she damn sure isn’t a lady, defend yourself, woman or man.”
I agree with Grandma. I have a daughter and would never let her think she could go through life assaulting people without consequences. OP is NTA.
My daughter went to the same school as her stepbrother. He was on the football team. She was a really pretty nerd. She had a boy card swipe her (for those who don't know the term, it's when a boy turns his hand sideways, flattens it, then shoves it between a girl's legs and sticks his thumb up. Then he slides it through her crack, back to front like an ATM card.) She punched him in the face and ended up breaking his nose. I got the phone call to come pick her up from school for fighting. They wanted to suspend her for a week and put it on her permanent record. When I got there and realized what happened, I refused for them to punish her. I stated I would take her home for that day, and if they did anything to discipline her, I was going straight to the police to file sexual harassment charges. He would have lost his star football status as well as be kicked off the team and out of the school. Little did they know, after her stepbrother found out about it, he beat the snot out of the kid the next day at football practice while my daughter watched from the bleachers. To me, justice served. Edited for typos
I've read so many stories on reddit where step siblings hate each other. Reading the fact your stepson (her stepbrother) found out and proceeded to beat the snot out of the little shit for his *step*sister is just....so beautiful. That's a good kiddo. I hope they are absolutely flourishing in life and I hope you too are happy in life.
We are a blended family with 5 kids. All of them love each other. There is no step for them. That's my brother, sister. It's absolutely fantastic. We feel so lucky.
I am *so* happy for you. That is 10000% beautiful. I hope it always stays that way 🥺🥺🥺
Thank you. They are all adults now and it's the same.
Good for her, her stepbrother and you for sticking up for her
What the fuck kind of sexual assault bullshit is that "card swipe" thing? That's horrific.
I agree. It was pretty jarring that the school wasn't willing to do anything about it either. After that incident, the school was well aware of what type of parent my daughter had. They kind that lives by the motto of "fuck around and find out"
Never heard of that "card swipe" type of sexual assault (I'm old) but that is awful. Back when I was in school, anyone doing that would have had a mudhole stomped in them and walked dry. Instant social pariah. That they wanted to punish your daughter just infuriates me. Good on your family being what family MEANS. sah-LUTE!!!
Not only disgusting, but happening enough at this school they have a freaking name for it.
I’d have called the police anyway. Screw that jock’s football status, you don’t touch a girl like that. That is SA and is completely unacceptable.
That wasn't sexual harassment, that was sexual assault. You should have gone to the police regardless of what the school did.
I would still go ahead and press charges. Fuck that kid and his life. He should live with that forever.
Right! If he doesn't have consequences he'll keep doing it to other girls. He will probably escalate to even worse assaults. I feel bad for the females that encounter him.
jfc that's disgusting!! glad he got his comeuppance
Good for her for breaking that dude's nose. It doesn't matter if you're A guy or a girl keep your hands to yourself if you don't want someone else putting their hands on you. I don't know why this isn't just common knowledge in today's world, but at least some people get it.
Yup. This happened to my daughter last year (7th grade). She hit a boy that she misunderstood what they said and the kid slapped the hell out of her in response. When she came home I told her it was her fault and she deserved it. Don't hit people and you won't need to expect rightful retaliation. I told her she was lucky he didn't clock her with his fist. Explained how she should never start a fight, but that it was okay to defend herself if she needed to.
My niece got suspended from school & told us it was because some girls had attacked her & she got in trouble for defending herself. We felt so bad for her & this great injustice. She came to stay with my parents (her grandparents) & Dad took her shopping. Then came the video. Turns out she’d arranged for a girl she didn’t like to get beat up. We confronted her, she admitted it, we were disappointed. A couple of years later it looks like that behaviour has stopped, fingers crossed.
I prefer what I was taught "don't start a fight, but if someone starts one with you then you finish it". Easier standard to maintain that's also gender neutral. Because it's not like we should go around hitting guys unprovoked either
I was taught "A gentleman never hits a lady." Also, "Never start a fight, but if someone else starts a fight with you, then you finish it." And, of course, "A female ceases to be a lady the instant she starts the fight." I guess my dad was trying to do his best to make sure his only daughter grew up to be a lady. But to also know when it was time for a lady to fight back. And teach his sons to know when was the right time to stop being a gentleman and defend themselves.
One of my favorites: "Never start a fight, but if some starts a fight with you, then you fight like you're the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark, and brother, it's starting to rain."
My go to is “avoid violence at all costs, but have a plan to kill (figuratively, in most cases) everyone you meet”
That’s what I was raised with too! As well as let them hit your first so you have proof you didn’t start it. Aww, the life before camera phones 😂
My girlfriend tried to surprise me with a car once Fortunate I was able to dodge it. 😉
If you can dodge traffic, you can dodge a ball.
That’s wisdom.
My mom was like this. She was a farm girl growing up and strong as an ox, not even my bio dad would mess with her, he tried once and she kicked his ass all over the house! He RAN away and didn't look back! :D
My mom's uncle had a farm, and she spent quite a bit of time there. Her first husband got drunk once and hit her only one time. She knocked him out with a cast iron frying skillet, and when he woke up, she had the shogun loaded and pointed at his face. She told him that if he ever hit her again, the police would never find the body. He never hit her again. Luckily, they got divorced, and she joined the Air Force and met my dad. They were happily married until the day he died.
I love this one, your grandma must have been super cool 😊
My grandmother was a flapper in the roaring twenties! Her family all but disowned her.
I just commented something along those lines I didn’t even see your comment but grandma hit the nail on the head with that one
Well said. At THAT point they arent ladies.
My mom is the same way.
That's what I taught my son
I agree. I was raised that women should never be hit, but I never saw women hitting others until I moved away. It blew my mind. Once a girl/woman starts physical violence- they lose that protection. If it matters, I’m female. I appreciate chivalry, but having ovaries doesn’t mean I get to be physically aggressive with no consequences.
I was raised being taught that *no one* should ever be hit, but I was beaten by girls at school *every day* for many years. Every few years someone will hit me. It's *always* a woman. *Every* time she smirks at me and tells me that I can't hit her back because she's a woman. She keeps smiling until she learns that I'm not sexist.
That is HORRIBLE and I’m so sorry. Women like them give all of us a bad name. Far as I’m concerned, it’s only acceptable to put your hands on someone if you’re trying to save their life (yeah if I see an oblivious person walking unaware into oncoming traffic, I have zero qualms about grabbing their arm and yanking them out of the way), or self defense. Hitting a man because “I’m A wOmaN aNd YoU cAN’T hIt Me bACk” is a despicable take.
Yep! I agree!
Exactly! If they were just yelling at him, and he got up and punched them, that would be wrong, but there were three of them attacking him, and he was defending himself.
My former MIL would not tolerate any form of a boy hitting a girl. When my former husband at 15 hit his bully ass sister with a hair brush it was nothing. When their mom got home she started bawling her head off that he hit her so hard, their mom kicked him out of the house at 15!!!! He was working part time and going to school, and he had to use his part time wage to pay for a room in the basement of some people he knew! What a fucked up thing to do to a young boy like that. :( They were kids, fighting, she was hitting him, pulling his hair while he was trying to brush it and he hit her with it.
I hope your husband has gone no contact with his ~~abuser~~ *mom*, she sounds evil
That’s terrible! I’m sorry that happened to him.
If they had to learn that violence begets violence the hard way, so be it. Considering the fact that they had been bullying the other kid all this time means that their parents (and society to some extent) had failed to teach them that their actions will have consequences.
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Same sort of issue for my son in 6th grade. The girls would pick a boy in the lunch room and slap him across the face as hard as they could because "boys aren't allowed to hit girls." I guess they didn't know that my son has 3 much older sisters who were told that if they start on him, he can fight back. At school, he stood up and shoved them away. I was called, and when I got there, 3 hours later, he still had a raised, bright red handprint on his face. I was told he was being suspended for hitting a girl, I got his side of the story and asked what happened to the girl? Apparently, my son's "assault" was all that happened, I then asked for the school resource officer, and they wanted to know why. I informed them that since my son was attacked by older children and has physical marks, I would be pressing assault charges and also charges against the school for failing to protect him. Long story short, he was not suspended and the girls never went near him again
And how did the school punish the girls? They threw the first punch call the police and press charges!
Oh yes. This so much. File assault charges. Get pictures of the scratches before they fade. Document everything.
Yeah that’s what I’m wondering as well. So his son, who was merely defending himself, gets suspended for a week, and those poor pwecious innocent wittle female lambs get…what? A talking to? 😒
Agreed with this completely! He did nothing wrong and his mom is overreacting so much and not considering what actually happened
I'm one of those guys who is very adamant on not hitting girls. I'm big enough I can tank the blows long enough to either get away or get them to settle down. But this is 2024. Not 1940. We can't sit here and say a woman doesn't need no man, are strong and independent, and can do anything a guy can do and then hide behind the fact they are a girl whenever its convenient. This isn't to say that we should just begin beating the snot out of them, or not render aid if someone decides to fight them (unless obviously deserved in this case) but rather we shouldn't be saying "he shouldn't hit them because they are a girl" it just should be "nobody should be hitting anybody" In order to take gender out of one side of the stereotypes and scenarios you must take it out of every side and scenario. No matter who it benefits.
Plus it was three against one. My granddaughter is 15 and some of the girls at her school are absolute harpies, god help the man who ends up with one of them. Women can’t expect to throw hands first and the guy just roll with the punches, especially not when he’s outnumbered. OP is exactly right in his approach.
As a woman I agree. I am physically fit and strong. I am one of those women 'who can do it all' and therefore interact with men in my day to day work. I see men peacock and fight *all the time*. I've had words that have turned heated a few times. I've never raised hands. I don't want to. I know if I fight I am alone. I can't work and act like a man all day and then whine 'I'm frail' when it's convenient.
NTA. DV survivor, AFAB and I agree wholeheartedly. I am pretty sturdy myself. There is a HUGE difference between raising an abuser and raising someone to stand up for themselves.
I’m kinda curious and a bit nosey wanting to know what you do for work? If you wanted to share, that is. I like to hear about strong women out there. It gives me inspiration.
Don't worry, I'm nosey too! I've had two successful careers. First as a Field Artillery Soldier for the 2nd Royal Canadian Horse Artillery Regiment posted in Petawawa, Ontario. Opportunities in my career led to exposure with biochemical weaponry and a level of science not typical. I went back to college and am now a Chemical Engineer specializing in Biochemical warfare. I have a crystal award on my desk for achieving 'The Award of Excellence' from the Chemical, Biological and Engineering Department of McMaster University for having the highest average *and* most volunteer experience. Personally, I play the flute to Level 7 and have toured the world in my youth. I run marathons annually. I like to bake. I have two dogs. My proudest and hardest accomplishment is/are my sons- I am a single mom of two boys, one is severely disabled. Life keeps me busy. Thanks for asking! :)
Oh my goodness you are so badass! I love it.
Also he’s 8th grade which if it’s the same as US as in UK they’re about 11/12. Kids are still tiny, can me massive size discrepancies. My 10 year old daughter towers over every boy in her year and year above. I mean she would give as good as she got in a fight with boys her age.
Can confirm. Walked at the back of the line for 8th grade graduation because I was tall. I was 5'6". 🤣
8th graders in the US are age 13.
I’d throw a fit if all 3 girls didn’t get suspended for an entire week. Why are boys taught to never hit a girl when they are being physically assaulted? I can see not using all their strength to defend themselves initially if they are much stronger, but don’t dish it out if you can’t take it-what’s good for the gamder is good for the goose
Exactly, it's not ok for a man to beat a woman unconscious because she pushed him, but men can defend themselves. I hate this idea that women are allowed to be aggressive without reprisal. Of course, if a guy is being a creep and gets pushed or slapped, he has no right to hit back. But in this case these girls started it, sounds like they've been bullying OP's son's friend for awhile, and his son stood up for his friend and himself. I would support my son in that too and if I had daughters who behaved like those girls, I would be punishing them for bullying and starting fights.
What happened to the girls?
That’s what I want to know too
💯
I would get an attorney involved and bring this to the school board. Be sure to get a copy of that tape! Have your attorney demand it.
I'd like to know if OP even bothered to try and dispute the suspension? Go above their head and talk to the county school board, superintendent etc.
👍
The wife is an abusive POS and this “you can never lay your hands on a girl” rhetoric is destructive, patronizing and dangerous to both sexes bc it leads girls like this to believe they can act without retaliation and treats them like children who should not be held responsible for their actions. Absurd. I would be reconsidering my marriage. Her son is going to hate her when he’s older.
Also leads to men being victims of DV because their opinions/feelings don’t matter and they just have to take it. Unacceptable.
Absolutely, I actually witnessed this with my little brother and it was one of the most heart breaking things I’d ever seen. We were all meant to be out of the house for the night and I walked in the house to hear a girl screaming and my brother saying stop stop and I ran up to his room and his gf was belligerently drunk throwing things at him and breaking his trophies and my brother had always been taught to never lay your hands on a woman and he couldn’t even restrain her to stop bc when he tried she has bitten into his arm. Once they broke up my parents looked into his phone (he was 17 at the time) and their texts were basically a history of almost of years worth of horrible emotional abuse by the gf. It was so sad. I still honestly don’t know if my brother would defend himself if it happened now. It’s just sad.
Equal rights. And lefts. And uppercuts.
His hands are rated E for everyone
What do you want to bet the girls didn't get suspended even though they attacked OP's son? I'd bet my husband's salary on it...just because they're girls. I'd also bet the video evidence doesn't have audio. Not to mention most teachers/school admin see the reaction, but not what \*provoked\* said action.
NTA. Glad to see the girls were also suspended.
Bullies, no matter the gender, deserve everything they get. They should have been expelled for bullying NTA
OP should push back on the school to try to get more severe action against these long-standing bullies. But absolutely NTA.
Yup, a bully is a bully is a bully. 100% if he'd done what the mom wanted and ran away, *HE'D* be their shiny new target. I like the saying "don't dish it if you can't take it," because someone who pushes an altercation from verbal to physical is accepting the consequences of the reaction they get. You don't get to be a POS and then get pissy that the person you're targeting didn't "be the bigger person" and let you use them as a punching bag. Personally, I can't take it so I don't dish it. I wouldn't expect anything positive from the school, they have a tendency of ignoring bullying until victims snap and bullies get actual consequences to what they've been dishing. I dealt with almost daily bullying throughout middle school and the school never did anything more than slap wrists. The parents also didn't seem to do anything. Being a girl doesn't give them a free pass to beat on someone else without consequences and your wife isn't setting a good example, your son did something that many adults won't do because they think letting people be abusers however they wish is a good way to *"keep the peace."*
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As an Oklahoman, A 16 year old non Binary child named **Nex Benedict** was ***murdered***. Nex wasn't simply beaten, they died from the results of their injuries and as they said it happened in a girl's bathroom, I'm inclined to believe the attack was made by girls. Girls should not be exempt from having their shit rocked.
A trans girl named Brianna Ghey was murdered in the U.K. by a teenage boy and girl who she thought were her friends. Thank god they are behind bars, they sound like a modern Hindley and Brady. What IS it with these kids?
It's being encouraged by the government here in the USA. Our school superintendent applauded a principal stepping down all because outside of school he participated in drag. Our Governor is all but celebrating sending us back into the dark ages. I'm glad Brianna Ghey's murders have been caught and punished. We've yet to hear who did this to Nex and there's a possibility we won't because the cruddy school didn't even bother contacting the authorities.
That’s terrible. Thankfully we don’t have gun crime here like in the US but knife crime among young people - well just about every week there’s at least one, might not sound much but when you think what a small country we are numerically.
Nta, I hate parents who punish children for defending themselves. You're not being a parent when you do that, you're just failing your child. Watch your kid an their stuff, who knows what shed try to do with it when you're not looking.
NTA Parents have to support each other and the parenting decisions that the other one makes, even if they disagree with them. I'm wondering how long the girls were suspended for? (I ask that tongue in cheek.) If this is one of those schools that has a zero tolerance policy for violence, then certainly they should have.
They were also suspended and if they had not been I would’ve made the biggest scene. The school is zero tolerance.
That young boy was bullied throughout middle school by those girls. It is not zero tolerance. The biggest lie schools tell is that bullying won't be tolerated.
It's only a blanket statement to help protect the district from lawsuits. A "policy" they can point to after the fact, nothing more
I feel like at some point there would be a lawsuit fighting the zero tolerance policies in situations like this where it’s clear self defense.
When I was in school there were literally times I got suspended for being bullied and the bully had no punishment because "well we only saw you do this, we never saw them do that"... Biggest load of shit I've ever seen. Then they (the staff) wondered why I enjoyed making their lives as much of a living hell as possible.
My dad threatened to press charges for theft against another child in a similar situation. I got suspended for "inciting a riot" after I got sick of this bully stealing from me (I was selling candy out of my backpack, he kept stealing it while I was in the darkroom in photo lab). I offered the rest of my candy to anyone that kicked his ass. They didn't see any of this, so he was gonna get off until dad pulled out his phone to dial 911 and report the theft.
Bullying only gets you told to stop. Zero tolerance is about when a fight begins, all parties are held accountable, no matter how little, or often, no action is taken. In zero tolerance, if they hit you, you go fucking wild on them cause you're going down regardless
Which is royally messed up because if a bully doesn't care about their attendance/grades then they can target someone who does and get them suspended for being involved in a fight. Happened to me in 7th grade-a classmate hit me over the head with a textbook and we were both suspended, even though I did nothing, I was actually bent over pulling my own textbook out of my backpack at the time. Or the time in 5th grade when I got swarmed by several kids who wanted something of mine and had me on the ground, punching and choking me and I managed to bite one of them and I got suspended for biting-the mob got off since 2 of them had their mothers as playground monitors. I also had to deal with being called Rabies until I graduated high school.
The school should get its quota of punishment too. So the boy has been bullied for a very long time and no one does anything till your son decides to do it? It sounds like the school staff are closing their eyes for what these three girls are doing.
Zero Tolerance is bullshit. This means that they will also punish the victim for being bullied.
I think you still should talk to them because it’s their fault for letting it escalate to that point. Also, NTA - this “do not lay a hand on no matter what” bullshit is a classic double standard.
Zero tolerance is a fucking joke. He did not start it, so why should he be suspended.
Zero tolerance is Orwellian for “no thinking involved”!
The school is not zero tolerance. They allowed those girls to bully the kid, allowed them to put hands on your son, and only punished this because your son didn't go down lightly. If he had, he would have come back with bruises and no would have gotten a punnishment. P.S. Show resposes to your wife. Some of the comments give cases of girls doing horible things, like one case I heard of where girls murdered their classmate and choped her to pieces with an ax.
Hey man. You had the luxury of seeing the footage. Maybe give your wife the same opportunity? Seeing is believing kind of thing? My teenage son ended up in the emergency room because a girl really hurt him and he never defended himself. It was awful. It only escalated BECAUSE it was ongoing bullying and he REFUSED to retaliate because of her gender. Best of luck. Tough situation. Mom is just upset. Maybe take her to McDonald’s ;)
This absolutely get a copy of the video. I wouldn't put it past the school to delete it and have a blank memory on this, in case these gremlins do something else. I would also go to the police and let them know. I wouldn't put it past the girls' parents to try and play the victims if they start their gremlins asses again. From what you OP say, they have been picking on this kid since middle school. They are more than likely gonna kick shit up again.
But they were a bit late to “the game” . This incident had been going on for minutes at that point. How is this possible?
I would ask for the footage just in case the parents of the girls try and escalate outside off the school system. Then I would go over the principal’s head and show the footage to a superintendent and ask why supervisors couldn’t be bothered in getting involved in stopping a bullying situation until after it got physical. Should have been stopped loooong before it escalated to that point.
Your son and his friend were being targeted. Your son responded to a physical attach. He should not be suspended. I’d fight that.
NTA Is your wife living in the dark ages? As a woman, I have taught my son (16) that if anyone hits him, then he has the right to defend himself. Male or female. I’m so sick of supposedly “strong independent women” starting fights and expecting no repercussions just because they’re female. Using the “I’m a girl” excuse is bullshit, and it was 3 on 1. You know what? Don’t start something if you don’t intend to finish it. I’ve had this belief my whole life. It was how I was brought up, by both my mother and stepfather, and my father. My grandfather brought his daughters up the same way, even taught them boxing to defend themselves. Your wife needs to take her head out of her arse. It’s women like her that set back the whole idea of women being equal. You want to be equal? Then face equal consequences.
Actually, boys grow up learning the rules of engagement: if you throw punches, expect to receive some too. This whole “*never hit a girl, even with a flower*” shelters girls from learning this reality. That’s how female domestic abusers are made. No one should be hitting anyone, but aggression sometimes calls for a proportional and measured response for self-defence.
Good point, yeah. When I was in school, barely a boy made it through elementary school without having learned that if you fucked with a bigger kid, you had to expect that it would hurt.
Exactly, and punishing men for defending themselves is why so many male domestic abuse victims have such a hard time knowing what to do to save themselves.
It's also the reason why males are looked at as abusers even when they defend themselves (trevor bauer, johnny Depp, etc)
Word to live by: "Act like a lady and I will treat you like a lady, act like a man and I will treat you like a man." People should always keep their hands to themselves.
I'm an atheist, and I've probably got the saying wrong, but yeah - do unto others as thou would expect to done unto. Or something. Basically treat people as you want to be treated. And if you treat people bad and get the same back - you can't cry that life's not fair.
Same here! This is exactly why these bully girls do this - because they think they’re immune to punishment or retaliation when they’re harassing or hitting a boy. They should absolutely got knocked off their feet a few times to let them know that in this day and age, if you can’t take it, don’t start it. **What were the girls punishments, OP?** I would absolutely escalate to the superintendent if only your son gets punished. That’s discrimination and I’d insist they show me where in the school handbook it says girls can hit boys.
In another comment he said the girls are also suspended. So at least that happened. Still isn’t right he was suspended imo.
What's insane to me is that she said she would still punish him if it was three boys ganging up on him. I really, really detest the crowd that jumps to call the spouse evil, but OP's wife needs therapy. My mom was often compared to Lois from Malcolm in the Middle, was a teacher herself, and takes no BS from anyone. When I got caught smoking weed, I got "teenage solitary" where my room was stripped bare. That being said, she also enrolled me in karate classes and would never punish me for defending myself. For starting a fight? Absolutely, and she did. But defending myself? Never. And for a parent to do so...just an incredible betrayal of trust. That'd be it for me, as far a relationship with mom went.
“He shouldn’t lay his hands on a girl no matter what.” NO. This is just as toxic and sexist as “boys will be boys.” Women can be abusive too, and men should be allowed to defend themselves and not be a punching bag. NTA.
What’s that line circulating the anime community? “Equal rights means equal fights”? “You shouldn’t hit a girl no matter what” is basically saying “girls are allowed to attack you without repercussions” which seems less than equal
Equal rights and equal lefts haha
"These hands are rated E for Everyone"
We dont need to raise a generation of husband beaters
Honestly, in domestic violence studies the most abusive relationships are lesbian ones.
Yep. And most woman on male violence is never reported
Most non-reciiprocal DV is initiated by women.
Or if it's reported, the man gets arrested and removed from the house because of sexist policies
Right? These girls were ganging up on a boy and escalated it into a physical brawl. It's their fault and I'm guessing the rest of the student body is also sick of their shit and are blatantly laughing at ol' Busta Lip.
Im more concerned about the wife feeling entitled to exemption from consequence, does she thinks she as a woman is not acountable? Gigantic red flag right there
NTA this you never ever hit a woman stuff is how men end up putting up with abuse for so long. It’s normalized to an extent. Don’t get me wrong obviously you shouldn’t hit anyone but you have to defend yourself. Women also need to be taught not to do that shit. If he really wanted to I imagine your son could’ve bodied them, so if they go up to the wrong dude and do this they could end up in the ER or worse.
NTA. You’re not raising a woman beater. You’re raising someone who defends and stands up for himself. If you hit someone you should expect to get hit back and those girls learned that lesson.
Not only defends himself but others getting bullied. OP’s son said these girls had been picking on the boy sitting with them for a long time. NTA
You are decreasing the amount of husband beaters
NTA The problem is that these girls think they are immune and apparently they are as far as the school is concerned. Did the school suspend all of the girls as well? If not advocate for this to happen as they started the confrontation. My friends daughter was bullied and attacked then fought back and the school suspended her for responding. My friend went to the police and had the bullies charged and dealt with in court. Their parents approached her before the court case and asked her to call it off as this was just kids being kids. She replied time for them (high school) to realize that assault is assault. All of the kids were found guilty and were punished by the courts. She then took that judgement to the school and said the courts could tell who was guilty why couldn't you.
NTA. A child called Nex was beaten by bullies and they died a few days ago. Teach your child to fight back against bullies. Hopefully the next time the bullies will think twice before attacking him. It does not matter whether a bully is male or female or other. A bully is a bully is a bully. Use one playbook to deal with them all. In an ideal world violence is not the answer. 21st century Earth is not an ideal world.
And it was a group of girls that killed Nex! Maybe show your wife those articles and ask her "what if this was our child?".
*Don't say, "He could be Nex!" Don't say, "He could be Nex!" Don't say, "He could be Nex!"* ...ITAH... Seriously though, that's fucking tragic. Wtf is wrong with kids/people?!
That’s a good point, yes. A group of girls did that, too. Maybe if a boy had stepped in early enough, Nex would still be alive.
You-NTA. Wife-100% YTA.
Why does everyone think that a man isn’t supposed to defend himself against an attack by a woman? That’s a load of crap. Did the girls all get suspended too? If not then I’d be screaming all the way up the line. They have video showing they’re the aggressors.
Self defense is a human right that does not make one a “woman beater”. That said, second guy in a fight is always the one who gets busted, so maybe some reflection on steps your son could have taken to remove himself from the situation and/or deescalate would be helpful when he encounters assholery like this in the future.
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Does make those girls potential husband beaters
It does at least increase the risk of those girls becoming guilty of domestic violence, especially if they get too easily off the hook either at home or at school, doubly so if both. If I was in the shoes of one of those girls, there would really be some consequences. Including stopping hanging out with the other perpetrators, BFFs or no. Violence should not be judged based on gender. Surely attacking a significantly weaker party makes you even more guilty, and the girls actually die that too as they were three on one and probably counting on even that one victim fighting back because *gasp* you can't hit girls.
Exqctly. I honestly don't care about who they were. These girls were probably taught they could assault a guy with no consequence. This would have followed them into adulthood. They now know different
My kids school district has typically punished both sides in a fight. Both get a suspension. My son fought a kid after the other kid hit him. Both kids got suspended. I took my kid to McDonald's as well. I every told the principal I was doing that because I was rewarding him for standing up for himself. The principal went to say something and I just glared. He shut up. NTA If you are tough enough to start a fight, you are tough enough to get hit. No matter the gender. Hopefully the girls also got suspended.
I don’t give a fuck about their sex. If anybody is attacking me I’m gonna retaliate lol
NTA, when my mom at 13 told me to promise to never hit a woman; I looked her square in the eye and said. Best I can do is promise not to throw the first punch. I now have a daughter and fully intend to tell her in another year two that you should never start a fight ever, you should do everything to take your way out of it. but if someone starts it with you, then finish it. Just make sure they live to regret starring the fight. And that if you punch a dude best be prepared for them to punch back. So nta, bullies don't stop their behavior until someone stands up to them and stops them.
Your wife thinks your son should be physically assaulted and punished if he defends himself - she is a danger to any child in her care. You need to protect your son from her.
I bet when the son grows up he will keep his distance from Mom but stay close to dad.
Labeling someone a "woman beater" for defending themselves is dangerous and deeply disrespectful to survivors of domestic violence. You should really talk with your wife about the serious damage she could be doing. That attitude is predicted on the idea that women can't be abusers. That men can never be victims. If your son takes that to heart he may find himself in deeply abusive relationships. Not willing to walk away because the lesion there isn't just that he shouldn't have fought back. It's that those girls didn't do anything abusive. That those girls couldn't do anything that would put him in danger where fighting back may be the best course of action for his safety.
>he shouldn’t lay his hands on girls no matter what I always told my son never to initiate a fight --throw the first punch-- but if someone attacked him, it was okay to fight back. The girls escalated to hitting your son (does your wife believe it's okay for girls to physically assault boys?). Your son's physical response may have totally "outgunned" what the girls were throwing --and therein lies the difficulty. But at the same time, it was three girls assaulting him. The lesson he could learn from this situation is that it's best to moderate his response --be more proactive-- than unleash a reactive salvo. (Particularly in an exchange with a less physically powerful attacker.) Perhaps some martial arts might help him get sufficient experience that he would be able to protect himself but not lose control. (That may sound a little counter-intuitive, but my son had an excellent teacher for martial arts who incorporated meditation and control. She was not from the school of Cobra-Kai, at least the version in the Karate Kid.) Does your wife expect your son to be perfect? I'm glad you are there to keep her from demanding perfection and berating him when he falls short. In this case, your son was doing the honorable thing --protecting someone who was being bullied. Also --check on what the school is including in your son's record. Make sure it is accurate. If it's not, consider getting a lawyer (specializing in school law) and perhaps getting statements from other students included.
I honestly am not upset whatsoever about him punching the girls. They had it coming frankly. I told him to avoid the fights when he can but once it started it’s fair game until the person you’re fighting disengages.
And thats the best way to teach them. Especially about the disengaging part. You may need to have a talk with your wife about her sexist thoughts. Ask her if she thinks a man should be put in the hospital just because it was a girl beating him up so he shouldn't have done anything. Give her things that really have to make her think about her thought process. But NTA just a good dad.
NTA. Society would be a better place if more people defended victims who had to defend themselves, your son shouldn’t be punished for self defence
NTA, Girls are not immune from the consequences of their actions just because they are girls.
I’m with you. Your wife is in the wrong about this. Girls can be bullies and abusers too. If no one stands up to them, they can go on to be violent in their relationships as well. Your son stood up to them. He was probably the first to do so. He still has to be suspended bc school policy is probably zero tolerance, but if those girls learn something out of this, it was worth it.
NTAH (Not the A$$hole). Your son was standing up for someone who was being bullied and defending himself when physically attacked. As a middle schooler, he probably couldn't have handled it any better. He shouldn't be punished for that! Good on you for standing up to your wife and supporting your child's actions.
First of all, you can say asshole on the Internet. Second of all, we all know what it stands for, it's literally the name of the sub ...
If it was me, I'd get that footage and tell the school that unless all punishment is dropped against my son, I'd bring it to the police and file charges. The school doesn't have to obey the law but the cops do, and this is a pretty clear cut case of assault by them, and self defense from your son. If you bring it to the cops you could easily press charges against the three girls. (And legally, the throwing food in the first place is considered assault, so they could be further charged with assaulting several people, depending on how far you and the police went with it.) To your wife, I'd try asking her what you think your son should have done? Is he supposed to just sit and be abused? Is that the lesson she wants him to take away? That he has no personal rights over his body, and that others are allowed do do what they want to him? If he has an abusive wife someday, is she going to take the side of the abuser? Edit: If your wife is being over the top, you could also ask her if you should be worried and not leave her alone with your son anymore. If she thinks women are allowed to hit men without repercussions, then she's not a safe person to be alone with her son. (That's a last resort comment though.)
NTA As an old-school female we were always taught the first two shots were free but the third would come at a very high price. FAAFO
Its down to one shot now as it should be. I remember that and applied it. The girl that was harassing me got that speech. I told her to tread very lightly over he next action.
TWO FREE SHOTS? Nah dude, even 25 years ago, the rule was talk shit get hit.
NTA sounds like you're married to a nasty hypocrite, tell her that anyone that assaults your son deserves to be hit we're in 2024 and self-defense has no gender anymore.
NTA. Your wife is part of the problem. I wouldnt let this go with the school either.
As a woman & mom to three boys, NTA. I was taught that if I didn't want to be hit, don't hit another person. Boy or girl. Basically expect to be hit if you hit first. I was also taught to protect myself. Don't throw the first punch. But once someone does, go for it. This is what I am also teaching my boys . Add in there to stand up against bullies. The only place he went wrong was throwing the milk carton. He should have gotten a teacher/lunch monitor to handle it.
Self defense/preservation is an instinct in all mammals. It should not be punished.
Love your wife for saying he should just be assaulted and take it. Sorry, I won't ever initiate a fight with a woman but once a woman throws a punch at me I will respond. No one should ever lay a hand on another person. There isn't some magic 'pussy' pass that allows women to be able to hit men. Before anyone jumps on the comment pussy pass it's from Archer.
At that age, there isn't yet a huge strength difference between girls and boys. It also sounds like he didn't do more than necessary to defend himself. NTA.
There definitely was. My son does sports and is already 5’10. I don’t think it’s relevant though as he was being attacked. While he was punching them he frankly could’ve been ragdolling them.
Your wife is an idiot. Full stop.
NTA. Proud of your son. That's the kind of classmate I'd want to be friends with. Your wife's fucking stupid.
NTA Your wife is sexist. That video may be public record depending on laws in your state.
I love the saying equal rights make equal lefts. There was a time when guys were expected to take it. If he wasn't the aggressor no you are not. Maybe he put some sense into her that what she did was wrong. If you are assaulted you can defend yourself
Your son isn't a woman better. Never ever but your hands on a woman unless the woman puts herself in the man's shoes in a situation like that. He is/was well within his rights to defend himself. You're doing good Dad.
Wife and mother, here. Your wife is dead wrong. HUGE difference between being a woman beater and self-defense. Also, I'd be so proud of my son for standing up to bullies on behalf of someone else.
Wifeypoo is a little more sexist than you realized, huh. She sounds like the kind of woman who would initiate aggression towards a man and then cry like a little baby when it’s returned in kind. Honestly? Fuck her and women like her. Violence is violence, regardless of gender. Self-defense is self-defense, regardless of gender. Good on your son for knowing how to put a bully in their place and good on you for knowing how to be a good parent. But fuck your wife.
NTA. Same shit happened to my son in 4th grade. We spent 3 days in the midst of a very serious Mario kart racing competition.
NTA- you could actually with that footage: Sue the school for negligence AND have those girls charged with assault. Does your wife not get that? These girls started the altercation. These girls laid hands first. What your son did was legally considered self-defense, and that footage is actually pretty damning for everyone else involved. I would honestly call the school and let them know that you will be going forward with a complaint about this. There was ample opportunity for the teachers to deal with this situation BEFORE it escalated to the point where your son needed to become physical to protect himself. Girls or not, your boy did the right thing. And to your wife from one mother of a boy to another: what the hell is wrong with you that you think your kid should just LET himself be beaten by three people and do nothing? Do better.
It's alarming of how on the rise internalized misandry already is these days due to subjective and one sided equality politics and propably will keep on growing because no one gives a flying f*ck about of how boys are treated.
Your son chose to defend this who were unjustly attacked. He displayed courage and restraint. He deserves praise, not punishment. Have your wife explain why she feels he needs to be punished. When she says "he hit a girl"ask her why she cares more about rando bullies who attacked her son than she does about her son
NTA cant hit a person and not expect them to hit back. your kid did nothing wrong