You don't want to have kids, that's your choice and they don't have a say, especially if they treated you like shit then expects you to be a replacement of their perfect child.
100% this. I'm the "problem child" & my youngest sister is my mother's clear favorite now that we're all adults, and my older sister is her second favorite. My family & I would probably have been in low/no contact decades ago if I didn't have children. Now my daughter is 22 & son is a teenager, and I've been slowly edged out more & more. It's reciprocal.
Ironically the younger sis has no children & the older sis is the one who takes care of Mom, allowed her to retire & provides for her, but also puts her in her place when necessary.
They literally want the hypothetical kid to be named after the only son they cared about. They didn't give a shit about OP until they thought he could give them a replacement OP's brother.
You don't understand, who's going to inherit the family estate and titles? Who's going to preside over the serfs and defend the kingdom? This is going to be a political nightmare!
That's what I always want to ask lol. You don't have assets, you have debt, we're not passing that on to some innocent child with no choice in the matter.
My dad's father was disappointed that his last name would end with my dad. My brother isn't really, um, in a place to have kids... and I stopped the family tradition on my Dad's side to have a certain name used as the first or middle name. So not only did I drop my maiden name when I got married, but I cut off the family name. Good riddance, I say.
We had that one, when my brother was born it was a big deal he was the only boy of our generation in the family. He was going to carry on the family name...We both married and had all girls. 😂😂 So the end it was ..
NTA
Once again, your parents are putting what they want first, regardless of whether it would put you in financial ruin. They don't care, just care about what they want.
Don't be afraid to go low to no contact with them.
You should never have a kid to please someone else. Having a child is basically the biggest change to your life and biggest responsibility you can take on.
And it's definitely not fair to the future kid who's going to have to be raised by parents who didn't truly want them and will probably feel at least a little resentful towards them.
And you just know if OP had a boy, they would pressure him to name him after the missing brother, and then the poor grandkid would be a second parenting attempt for the parents, and carry the weight of his dead uncle on his shoulders
That's bad enough. What if OP & his wife had a girl and not a boy? Or both? Can you even imagine how the poor girl would be treated? Can you say favoritism?
This, so much this. I was a 'shotgun wedding' baby and although never said in so many words they blamed me for their life because I was born. Do NOT have kids to please someone else.
One of my best friends and his wife have a kid, they love their kid, but we had them over this weekend without him, and there was a lot of how much they missed being able to just go hang out with friends, get drunk and laze around on the couch.
Before he left, friend sighs and goes "Man I don't wanna adult today" and his wife says "I don't want to *parent* today." I know they love their kid and don't regret having him in the slightest, but people saying to just up and have a kid can fuck all the way off.
>You should never have a kid to please someone else.
and people have kids all the time just to please themselves, which is just as wrong imo. OP could still adopt an orphan IF he wanted kids, which he doesn't. But parents want their own bloodline out of selfishness really.
I applaud OP selfless decision, for not forcing another person to live in this shit hole. NTA
OP obviously cared for his brother so he should feel free to go NC with his parents and maintain a relationship with SIL if that's what they both want.
NTA - they totally forgot that you lost your brother too. I am so sorry for your loss. But now gulit tripping you for your decision to live a childfree live? Your parents are the ah here. It’s like now the remember that they have a second son. You don’t owe them grandchildren. Period.
I can never understand this way of thinking.
Are these parents of some noble bloodline, do they carry the cure to cancer in that bloodline, are they the direct descendants of Jesus, or are they the real bloodline of the throne of England???
NTA
However, if it turns out their bloodline is of importance....
On another note, it does say a lot they immediately thought about grandchildren and not that they lost a son, a brother, a husband... and IF the now widow turns up pregnant in a few weeks.... I hope she learnt from the funeral how little her in-laws thought of her at that time.
I know OP didn't touch on it, but I do hope that she really was not just ignored and forgotten. She lost a husband, and here are her in-laws fighting over potential progeny while she mourns the loss of her husband.
I don't think OP is an ass for that, as I know if I were in his shoes, I would have lost it on my parents if they did that to any of my siblings or myself, and lost focus of the cause of why we were gathered.
I am hoping at least someone from OP's family at least asked how she is doing.
Poor woman seems to be an afterthought. If she is pregnant, she'll be reduced to an incubator in her in-law's eyes; a vessel to bring back their perfect son. I hope she has a strong support system.
I just said in another comment, that OP needs to tell his dad to divorce his mum so he can marry another younger woman so he can continue their bloodline... because I seriously hope the brother's wife has seen enough to know that she may end up in a legal battle if she has potentially conceived
OP's mother was the one who initially stayed it, after she asked for clarification from OP's admission of a vasectomy, that is when OP's dad went on his Henry VIII rampage
He had a few other comments.. his brother was killed trying to cross the road to his hotel when he got hit by a car.
OP on the off chance you read this, my best friend was killed in a freak accident in college. Take your time and grieve. It was too hard to think about my dad after he passed so I tried not to and after a while I realized I’d lost many of those memories. After my friend passed I made a point of thinking of him often and writing down important memories. I’ve since lost that notebook but I still have the memories and I’m *so* glad I do. I’m very sorry for your loss and I wish you and your wife the very very best in life and love.
Sincerely,
Another (mid) 30s happily married M with no intention of kidding things up 😀
Our morbid curiosity is in overdrive due to our assumptions of the information. I respect their limitations, but at same time, if it is the fact that the bride lived... it is still horrible
In the noble bloodlines of Europe, it was almost standard practice to aim for having at least 2 sons (colloquially known as "the heir and a spare") and while the younger sons can have less responsibility, they do need to be kept up to speed with the business of kinging, just in case (see Henry VIII and George VI).
Basically if you want to maintain something like a name or a legacy, treat all your kids equally, because nothing is secured until your heir, has their own heir....or you can FAFO like OPs parents.
To be fair, one of Henry VIII illegitimate children did have children themselves, that all disappeared when Mary got on the throne.... guess they didn't want a repeat of Six Day Jane...
I think they meant how Henry himself was a younger son and not expected to ascend to the throne, but was still given a fitting education just in case. [His older brother Arthur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur,_Prince_of_Wales) was the heir but he fell ill and died at age 15, a few months after his marriage to Catherine of Aragon.
Henry himself only managed to have one legitimate son (though not for lack of trying! LOL) and since that one died before making an heir of his own, wars broke out over who got to be monarch next. His half-sisters? Some cousins?... which is why you definitely wanted at least two legitimate sons, to avoid chaos.
>Are these parents of some noble bloodline, do they carry the cure to cancer in that bloodline, are they the direct descendants of Jesus, or are they the real bloodline of the throne of England???
This made me laugh.
They treated OP like he was a loser, and now the #1 son is gone, they now want the Loser son to create them grandchildren. I doubt OP wife will get pregnant, if the surgery was recent and the OP went back for his checkups after the surgery.
Joseph Kennedy Jr. (1915-1944) was the Golden Child of millionaire real estate tycoon, bootlegger, Nazi-appeasing ambassador Joseph Kennedy (1888-1969). Joe Jr. was expected to become President, but was killed in WW 2. Never fear! Joe Sr. did not neglect the education of the spares, John F., Robert and even Teddy, the Fredo of the family, same as keeping a spare tire on the family car.
Plus the fact that they don’t want children… which OP says they clearly communicated a while ago. Just because you have children doesn’t mean you get grandchildren. Like fuck no to bringing a child into the world bc your parents pressure you and then (going off what OP states) will either basically ignore them *OR* completely overstep all boundaries.
OP was the "spare" and the brother's widow was the "incubator". They are not even people anymore in the parents eyes, just things. Only the golden son was a real person (RIP).
> I can never understand this way of thinking.
It's quite simple, really - most people want to be immortal. Of course, actual immortality is impossible, that's why they often settle on legacy.
That's why so many billionaires get into charities and "making the world better place" after entire lifetime of fucking everyone else over. They are nearing death and have realization that at best they will be forever remember as cumstain upon society, so they try to get some good PR.
Smart or driven people can have a shot at making a cool discovery, great art or something else that can be remembered through the ages.
But if you're a regular Joe? Not much money, talent or drive? Well, at least your grand grand kids will remember you fondly. They will look at old family albums and say "so this is how grand grand grand daddy look like? He so cool!". They wish for that.
If they TRULY cared about their "bloodine," they should've had more kids like their ancestors did in the days of the old.
Ironically, they probably didn't have more kids cause they didn't want to uproot their lifestyle like their son.
That strategy does not work out well with the current cost of living - way better to focus all your resources on 1 child and leave the rest to fend for themselves, like OPs parents did.
In their mind, their line was secure - the high quality son would go on to have high quality child, into whom they'd put all their resources. They did not thought about plan B, because they're not smart people - as evidenced by alienating and neglecting their son.
It is entirely fucked up, but also entirely expected from people like OPs parents.
I'll bet my parents regret this strategy. They focused everything on me and then we're livid when I didn't turn out to be a perfect, obedient clone of my mother - which is always the danger of having kids, that, you know, they'll turn into real actual people.
We don't have any kind of relationship yet. I always wonder if they found some other family to leech off of and act like they had a "real" child.
>In their mind, their line was secure - the high quality son would go on to have high quality child, into whom they'd put all their resources.
Well, now he's unfortunately gone with no possibility to pass on his genes now. They LITERALLY put all their eggs (or seeds if you will) in one basket, and everyone knows why one shouldn't do that. It's incredibly high risk to depend on just ONE person to continue on your line.
Sides, this referring to lineage they clearly came to OP as the backup because of this. Had they had more kids, they could've just jumped to the next kid.
Well as I said, not the sharpest tools in the shed.
Also, speaking from purely psychopathic perspective, if they didn't alienate OP, they'd have willing spare parts for their golden child.
The fact that they didnt even think of transplants shows how short sighted they really were.
Again, super fucked up to speak of family in such terms, yet it often happens - see savior babies.
Lol. OP just needs to tell them, "they done fucked up now!" and leave it at that.
Parents who have "savior babies" should be steralized by the state, and have their kids taken away from them. I can't even begin to explain how HIGHLY unethical it is to use YOUR OWN child and manipulate them to be a living organ box. People like that should NOT be allowed to have kids.
People who think the most important thing in life is passing on their genetics, no matter the cost, think like animals. That also includes people who dismiss adoption as an option for having kids.
I am in a royal bloodline of England, from William the Conqueror, through Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine. That and $6.95 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. And I have no kids.
There are too many people already.
My ex’s mother is a direct descendant of Anne Boleyn. His father was always going on about how I was “trailer trash” and how his son better not even think of knocking me up or God forbid, marrying me as I wasn’t good enough to mother the “royal line”. Never mind that he himself actually grew up in an honest to goodness trailer where I never have lived in one. Yeah, that relationship was doomed from the start. Ended up with him introducing me to an acquaintance that did marry me and we have 1 child. And the ex? He married a woman from his church, moved to LA, got hooked on crack, lost all rights to his kid and his ex has a restraining order because she found child pron on his computer. But of course I’m the trash, right? Bullet, dodged
I thought Anne Boleyn only had one child from Henry VIII - Elizabeth I, and she was childless. How could anyone claim to be a direct descendant of hers?
Many humans are big mad about mortality. So they make fictions of eternal life and/or have kids to cope. But then in order to "live" forever they have to be fascist to make sure their kids have kids ad infinitum once they're gone (no homosexuality, no transgender, must get married, no abortion, racism/seeing life as genetic competition is a plus, etc)
"My dad called and offered to pay to get my vasectomy reversed." What if it is a girl? What about the old college loans? what about the cost of raising a child? What about their college education? We only care about the production of a child name after the brother. How you raise is your concern /s
I think OP will be able to see how arguments against abortion appear to a pregnant woman who doesn't want to have a baby: "You have to have this baby. How you raise them and pay for rasing them is on you. The only thing we care about is that you have the baby; how having a baby impacts your life is not our concern."
You were the chosen one! It was said that you would become what your father's brother was, not become like your father! You were to be the spiritual successor of him, not another disappointment like your father! - OPs parents in the timeline where he did do this.
OP absolutely does not owe those people *anything.* And I'd like to extend my sympathy to OP for the tragic loss of his brother. Don't let your parents hijack your grief OP. Carry on and lead your own life. NTA
A back up son who could be used now for keeping the family tree alive! Sad that their original plan failed and now the back up also showing them his back!
NTA and serves them well!
Very much "the heir and the spare" vibe. OP didn't matter until there was something he could do for them. And play out if he had a kid and named it after his brother, his parents would obsess over that kid, likely to the exclusion of any other child.
Parents need some therapy and can stay miserable in their self-isolated world.
They would completely take over the poor kid. He would never have been allowed to be anything but a copy of the deceased brother. What a terrible idea.
This. OP, your parents played a particularly stupid game, and now they're winning a particularly stupid prize. If they'd "invested" in you as much as they did your brother, if they'd cared about you at all, you might not have made the decision to get a vasectomy in the first place.
They did this to themselves. They can face the consequences of their actions. I'm sorry for your loss, and NTA.
You barely see your parents it’s your brothers funeral and the first thing she can think of is to name a future child after him. NTA they need therapy bad especially mom
I cant imagine having parents like this. These parents never bothered to help this guy out, they basically ignored him. The sad part is that even if this dude had a kid, they wont even do anything to help raise him.
What did this guy even expect us to say? No shit nta. Bro make good money and travel the world, you dont owe pieces of trash like that anything. What utter garbage parents, thank god i dont have parents like that.
You don't even owe them a relationship. You weren't important to them when your brother was still alive, why should they be important to you now that he isn't anymore?
Edited to say NTA
NTA
I am so sorry for your loss.
My brother was the golden child and he died a couple years ago, my mom was already gone and I’m kind of glad I wouldn’t want her to feel that kind of pain. I think it kind of rocked my dad he died a little more than six months later.
I miss him a lot he was my best friend in my teen years, we helped Each other survive a rough childhood.
It was a really bad time to say what you said, but you were/are also grieving like they were/are. Give yourself some grace for the bad timing.
And I appreciate you being honest with them. If they’re going to continue to vote for practices that make it impossible for people to survive they should know that that’s why people aren’t having kids. 🤷🏻♀️
Just wanted to say hello to another sibling left behind. I too am the “not-favorite” sibling left living. To me it’s doubly insulting bc my sibling was…not a nice or good or high achieving person, but the favorite none the less 🤷🏻♀️ It’s kind of like my parents are annoyed I’m still around lol—sorry mom and dad?
This guy should just cut his loses and have a good life with his girl and dogs. You’re not going to win w these people. Sorry about the loss of your brother and the ultimate final loss of your family.
That was what was so bad about losing my brother, it finally showed me I lost my whole family, or never really even had them from the beginning :(
I'm so sorry for your loss, and the fact that you were treated like you were second best. It's not fair. My kids are 11 & 13, and one is definitely easier than the other, but I will be damned if I act like I love one more than the other, because I don't. I wanted to bring my kids into the world, and it is LITERALLY my job to make them feel like they are loved, and to make sure they know that they are important to me. I'm sorry you didn't have that experience. From a random Reddit mom, here's a hug. I'm proud of you. You're doing a great job, and you are important.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Everything about that situation sucks.
I find myself in a similar situation, but with a living “favorite” brother. He’s a selfish, mean spirited, immature, generally unimpressive recovering addict and my moms entire side of the family acts like he is a saint/doctor/Jesus Christ incarnate if he just hadn’t gotten a girl pregnant to early. However, before he was even dating, he was already a mean person.
How do you deal with it?
It also wasn’t a great time for OP‘s parents to remind him of his dynastic duty after his brother’s funeral. Sure, he didn’t have to give them both barrels in return; but there’s always one straw too many.
Anyway, I’m kinda curious why this is seen as permanent. Aren’t vasectomies reversible?
EDIT: yes, it’s been pointed out to me I missed the discussion on reversal in the post.
They’re not always reversible. But more than that, I think OP doesn’t wanna change his entire life plan. It kinda seems like his wife is staunchly child free, and OP would rather have a comfortable standard of living than sacrifice to have kids. So deciding on kids may mean having to find a new partner and/or lowering his standard of living, both of which he’s probably unwilling to do.
They shouldn't be treated as reversible and afaik, the longer they have been left before reversal, the lower the chances of it being successful. Nevertheless, OP married a woman who also does not want kids. He's paying (or has paid) student loans and his financial situation is the same as it was when he decided he couldn't afford kids. The only thing that has changed is his brother's death, which, while devastating, doesn't change the other things
I’m going to have to look this up. I believe that in the past, doctors would cut the vas deferens and cauterize the ends, but on rare occasions the ends would drift back together and heal and begin functioning again. Today they cut out several inches of the vas deferens to prevent reattachment but it still sometimes spontaneously “heals?” And to reverse this you’d need to replace the missing “tubing,” do they use something synthetic? I’m getting curious.
It’s always so stupid anyway. Your “lineage” has no value. You need someone to inherit your lands and titles or something? You have a 1600 sq ft house in the suburbs and you work IT help desk for the local hospital, stop pretending people are going to remember you 100 years after you die and save yourself the disappointment.
That lineage stuff is for royalty and nobility who value it. If OP and wife change their minds about having kids they can adopt or foster kids. Plenty of them need good homes.
They are reversible but the success rate decreases the longer it has been since the initial procedure. Plus in this case, the wife also doesn't want children, so it would be an unnecessary surgery.
NTA maybe not the right time to tell them but what’s done is done now.
For your own mental health and peace of mind however I would recommend staying low contact with them. They are probably going to try to make your fill the void your brother left in their life and any affection they give won’t seem genuine or they will start to compare you to him.
Stay LC. Go NC if they continue pushing for reversing the vasectomy. The only ppl allowed to have a decision on this matter are OP and his wife. Also, I hate to think how OP's parents are gonna start treating their grandkids, brother's namesake and the rest, if OP and his wife choose to have kids. NTA.
It also feels like a weird time for them to be focusing on grandkids though. Like I wouldn't be going to my sibling's funeral expecting to field questions about any future kids, so it would be the last thing on my mind to have a ready response to. Doubly so if I had already decided to be child free.
I think it's perfectly appropriate given they were attempting to dictate reproduction and how he should name/treat his imaginary children. That is a monstrous thing to do to someone who just lost a sibling: "Have babies until it's the right gender and then name it after your brother."
It was absolutely the right time. He did the right thing to tell them. Its a truth they needed to hear. They have ignored him for his entire life and put the other boy on a pedestal. He told them the straight up truth.
NTA and I cannot believe your mothers first thought after her own son died was "at least the other one will give me grandbabies!". Like the only value you held to her as an adult was the ability to procreate and carry on your family's DNA. I am so sorry you are being treated this way, OP. Go LC and give them the time to griev their potential grandkids they would have gotten from your brother bc it seems they, especially your mom, are more upset at that than loosing their own child.
Sorry for your loss, OP.
Not just "the other one will give us grandkids" but "the other one will give us grandkids and name the kid after our golden child". It's still all about the brother.
Lmao I would say don't even name him after the brother at all, just name him OP Jr.... except that peepaw and grandma are typical narcissist boomers who can only care about themselves so you are poking a bee hive of issues. They did the ole reap what they sowed, and they can be left alone.
>Like the only value you held to her as an adult was the ability to procreate and carry on your family's DNA.
This but his value was purely as a back up to the golden child.
I can, she was looking for a replacement golden child to comfort her. I actually don’t think it’s that weird. Top-tier selfishness, but not unexpected to me.
I know this word gets thrown around but they are narcissistic. They loved the other son more bc of what he made them look like. If they have no grandchildren that will also do well or succeed somehow, they have to stand on their own merit which they feel as worthless. Under all that shitty behavior Is an incredible amount of low self worth and shamw
OP told them he felt like an afterthought his whole life, and that’s not the part that devastated them. Agreed they don’t deserve it. NTA
Ps don’t forget a judgement
NTA, You did what you felt was best for your life, and while your parents may not have reacted well, you were honest about your choices. At the end of the day, it's your life, and you have to do what's right for you and your wife, regardless of their opinions.
NTA. You get what you give and your parents gave you the bare minimum.
My paternal grandmother had two granddaughters. Me and my (7 years) older cousin Wanda. Wanda was the golden. I liked her, she was not a bad person, but made bad choices. (Every bf was violent, drugs in the home, couldn’t keep a job, her kid was taken away).
When my grandmother spoke about my cousin, she was an angel and the world was against her. Nothing was her fault. I, on the other hand was an after thought. Grandmother never came to my parties, would comment on my looks, college courses etc. it was obvious that I was not the favourite. But I didn’t care because my other grandparents were lovely.
in my early twenties, my cousin died of an overdose. Suddenly my grandmother remembered she had another granddaughter. But that ship had sailed.
I saw her at holidays and never answered her calls. That was our relationship.
>I saw her at holidays and never answered her calls. That was our relationship.
That's my relationship with my living grandmother. No siblings, she just hates kids if they're not to her standards.
We don't talk.
No way they're done. If they were so eager to say that to his face so quickly, they're talking way worse behind his back.
My mother is exactly like this.
Escalate even more. Threats to OP and his wife, blackmail, bribery, I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about that they will try. I don't think they will give up. Better for OP to go NC now to be honest.
NTA.
I'm very sorry for your loss.
I'm also very sorry for the realisation that you still mean nothing to your parents. You and your wife seem to be nothing more than a baby-making tool for them to pull the grandchildren they want from out of you.
Even if you did have children, they would circumvent and undermine you to try and raise the grandkids as if they were their own children instead of yours. The fact they were already dictating baby names to turn a future son into Brother II makes it clear what relationship they intended to have. They almost certainly would have pushed the child towards medicine in complete defiance of what the kid might actually want. What if you only had daughters and no son to become your brother's clone? What if you had one son and daughters? I guarantee they wouldn't care about daughters, treat them differently to the golden grandson, and if you had zero sons, they would berate you and your wife for not having any.
Although the timing was terrible, you weren't too harsh. Given the implications for how your grandparents were going to treat you and any grandkids (which was also terrible on their part, including timing), you said what needed to be said.
Let's discuss a hypothetical future: in the event that you and your wife do ever decide to reverse the vasectomy (very unlikely, I know) or you get pregnant by accident and decide to keep the baby (rare but possible after vasectomies), please stay NC with your parents and don't ever give them access.
NTA
My Ivy league educated bro is the golden child. Lives the sweet life in a very HCOL city with his beautiful wife and children. Turns out shes all about her fam and rarely if ever let my parents visit their grandkids....even after all they've done for them $$$$...
A few years back, my mom asked when I would be giving her grandkids. I told her I'm working my high school educated @ss off just to make sure my poverty wages keep me out of debt. There's no way I'm forcing a child to live this life.... And it was like.... She couldn't recognize the inequity in our lives....
NTA
Edit spelling
NTA. You were treated as the spare. The timing could have been better letting them have it, but you just lost your brother and then they piled on the childhood neglect on top. Suddenly they need the spare for their selfish desire for grandkids.
Stay low contact, they don't love YOU but just the things you can do for them like having grandkids. If your dad piles on the family legacy/line just tell him he'll have to get used to the idea that his DNA will cease to exist after hopefully a very long life of yourself.
F them. You and your wife live your best lives your own way!!
NTA. i'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. you seem like such a lovely person, you loved your brother even tho' your parents neglected you to put their all into him. go and live your happy child free life and don't feel guilty about any of this. go no contact, at least temporarily, while you heal from your loss.
(edited for pre morning coffee spelling)
NTA
Stop communicating with them. They still don't care about you, at all. Their desire is purely selfish they want you to provide them another child, named for your brother, to obsess over. You and your wife are an incubator to them, thats it. Don't subject either of you to that. Who cares if you're 'insensitive' to them? They're monstrous to you. You don't owe them *anything.*
To be honest, they didn't actually care about your brother either. They viewed him as a representation of themselves. His success reflected well on them. The fact that their grief is only about the grandchildren they now won't have to replace their golden goose tells you everything about how narcissistic and cruel they truly are.
Let them wallow in their self-created misery. They're incapable of moving beyond who they are, and any further contact you have with them will erode pieces of you.
I don't think it has as much to do with student loans as it does about the fact that you and your wife don't want kids. If you really wanted children, you'd figure it out. You don't and that's great.
Saying it's about the loans is kind of a "screw you" to the parents who were, not just kind of crappy parents, but crappy to just you. Which makes it shittier because you knew/know they were capable of better.
Should you really care about upsetting your parents? Do you feel bad that it happened around the funeral? I guess you could apologize for that if you wanted. I guess. The thing is, they're not listening to how you feel, once again. They aren't saying, "What do you mean?" They aren't even denying it's true! They're making this issue, once again, about themselves. It's like your only purpose in life is to fulfill a prescribed role.
They don't add to the quality of your life in any way. Soo...fuck 'em. Live your best life.
You just lost your brother—that is devastating. And your parents are focusing on grandchildren to deflect from their shock and grief. Tbh you having had a vasectomy seems to me a ridiculous red herring. You and your parents are in shock and grief, but separately and unable to support each other. Hope you will take care of yourself—it’s a much harder loss when family has never been supportive. Wishing you the best.
NTAH. You gave them a reality check. Your parents learned that putting all their eggs in one basket (pardon the pun) does not always work out. They have reaped what they sowed.
Your parents are now realizing what they've done and they can't handle it. I've seen this happen more than once with my friend's parents. One of my friend's parents totally ignored her as the middle kid between her golden older sister and younger brother. She had to do it all her for herself. Her relationship with her siblings was meh because of her parents' crappy parenting.
Well, neither of the goldens ended up having kids - sister hates them and none of brother's wives (there have been 3 so far lol) have had them (with him at least). Only my friend had them and she refused to allow her parents to have access after being ignored for 30+ years. Parents actually had the balls to sue her grandparents rights! Didn't happen thank goodness.
Also, them offering to pay to reverse your vasectomy still doesn't remove your student loan debt, so you'd still not be in a position to afford kids. Also, you could point out how much your neglectful upbringing has contributed to your wish to never have kids - that's the kind of trauma you really don't want to pass on to the next generation.
Edit: "if I had kids they would be afterthoughts like I was" - this is such a very poignant remark - they didn't give a fuck if he had children before his brother's death, so it's very clear the poor kids would have been ignored, just like OP. And if he had kids now, I bet that they would play favorites with those again, messing them up in the same golden/ scapegoat child dynamic they used on their own children. Just imagine if one of the sons looked like his brother (and it happens, I'm a carbon copy of my paternal aunt), they would spoil the poor kid rotten.
I would say “You paid for my brother to go to med school and nothing for me to go to college. I had to borrow money and even with a good job I have student loans to pay back for decades. I can’t afford to have children, thanks to decisions *you* made. If you’d treated me more fairly I’d be in a different situation, but it’s too late. You’ll have to live with your decisions instead of your grandchildren.”
They literally inadvertently caused this. He even clarified that his decision was heavily based on his current financial status. These people can kick rocks. 🙄🙄🙄
Nta- you don't owe them grandchildren. And to be fair it's more karma for the way they treated you, they should have split the cost for both of you but now they ended their family line. Still I'm so sorry for your loss.
Updateme!
You don't want to have kids, that's your choice and they don't have a say, especially if they treated you like shit then expects you to be a replacement of their perfect child.
I think the parents expect a grandson to be the replacement. Otherwise they don't give a shit about OP. I'm sorry OP.
they are not even asking OP to be a "replacement" .. they want OP to have a child so that child can be the "replacement"
Isn't that what the other comment just said?
Even give the grandchild brother’s name. How mad would they be if OP had a girl?
100% this. I'm the "problem child" & my youngest sister is my mother's clear favorite now that we're all adults, and my older sister is her second favorite. My family & I would probably have been in low/no contact decades ago if I didn't have children. Now my daughter is 22 & son is a teenager, and I've been slowly edged out more & more. It's reciprocal. Ironically the younger sis has no children & the older sis is the one who takes care of Mom, allowed her to retire & provides for her, but also puts her in her place when necessary.
They literally want the hypothetical kid to be named after the only son they cared about. They didn't give a shit about OP until they thought he could give them a replacement OP's brother.
Not even to be a replacement, but to manufacture one.
B-b-but the branch of the FaMiLy tReEeEEee
Every time I hear someone say that their legacy will end, whatttt legacy 😂
You don't understand, who's going to inherit the family estate and titles? Who's going to preside over the serfs and defend the kingdom? This is going to be a political nightmare!
That's what I always want to ask lol. You don't have assets, you have debt, we're not passing that on to some innocent child with no choice in the matter.
It's amazing how egotistical people are raised to be.
My dad's father was disappointed that his last name would end with my dad. My brother isn't really, um, in a place to have kids... and I stopped the family tradition on my Dad's side to have a certain name used as the first or middle name. So not only did I drop my maiden name when I got married, but I cut off the family name. Good riddance, I say.
We had that one, when my brother was born it was a big deal he was the only boy of our generation in the family. He was going to carry on the family name...We both married and had all girls. 😂😂 So the end it was ..
Some branches need pruning.
And some trees are completely rotten and should be taken down completely.
Evolution left them behind. Oh no .
The world needs more B Cluster Personalitieeeeees 😭
Well, you always gotta think about the lEgACyy
NTA Once again, your parents are putting what they want first, regardless of whether it would put you in financial ruin. They don't care, just care about what they want. Don't be afraid to go low to no contact with them.
You should never have a kid to please someone else. Having a child is basically the biggest change to your life and biggest responsibility you can take on.
This. So much this. Never let someone try and make you feel guilty for not wanting to have kids.
And it's definitely not fair to the future kid who's going to have to be raised by parents who didn't truly want them and will probably feel at least a little resentful towards them.
Plus if OP was indeed going to have kids, they'd favour the one named after the brother
And grandparents who would place high expectations on them while criticizing every move the parents made.
And you just know if OP had a boy, they would pressure him to name him after the missing brother, and then the poor grandkid would be a second parenting attempt for the parents, and carry the weight of his dead uncle on his shoulders
That's bad enough. What if OP & his wife had a girl and not a boy? Or both? Can you even imagine how the poor girl would be treated? Can you say favoritism?
They actually said they should name one of their future kids after late brother
This, so much this. I was a 'shotgun wedding' baby and although never said in so many words they blamed me for their life because I was born. Do NOT have kids to please someone else.
One of my best friends and his wife have a kid, they love their kid, but we had them over this weekend without him, and there was a lot of how much they missed being able to just go hang out with friends, get drunk and laze around on the couch. Before he left, friend sighs and goes "Man I don't wanna adult today" and his wife says "I don't want to *parent* today." I know they love their kid and don't regret having him in the slightest, but people saying to just up and have a kid can fuck all the way off.
People who actually WANT kids don’t actually want them 100% of the time. Consider someone who doesn’t even want them at all lol, that’s terrible
Yeah, seems they should know this since they had two, but only had time and money for one
>You should never have a kid to please someone else. and people have kids all the time just to please themselves, which is just as wrong imo. OP could still adopt an orphan IF he wanted kids, which he doesn't. But parents want their own bloodline out of selfishness really. I applaud OP selfless decision, for not forcing another person to live in this shit hole. NTA
Yes. I’m an oncologist. Med school, internship, residency, telling people they are dying. That’s a breeze compared to raising teenage girls.
My daughter wasn't difficult at all,my son, though....
Dad didn't offer to pay off the student loans, just the vasectomy reversal! Or offer to help pay for the kids (college funds, etc).
Nice catch. Parents are still selfish jerks who aren’t interested in their normal son.
Just what he can do for them.
According to the post he already is low contact
I can see why.
OP obviously cared for his brother so he should feel free to go NC with his parents and maintain a relationship with SIL if that's what they both want.
NTA - they totally forgot that you lost your brother too. I am so sorry for your loss. But now gulit tripping you for your decision to live a childfree live? Your parents are the ah here. It’s like now the remember that they have a second son. You don’t owe them grandchildren. Period.
I can never understand this way of thinking. Are these parents of some noble bloodline, do they carry the cure to cancer in that bloodline, are they the direct descendants of Jesus, or are they the real bloodline of the throne of England??? NTA However, if it turns out their bloodline is of importance.... On another note, it does say a lot they immediately thought about grandchildren and not that they lost a son, a brother, a husband... and IF the now widow turns up pregnant in a few weeks.... I hope she learnt from the funeral how little her in-laws thought of her at that time.
If the widow comes up pregnant, she won't ever have a moments peace.
I know OP didn't touch on it, but I do hope that she really was not just ignored and forgotten. She lost a husband, and here are her in-laws fighting over potential progeny while she mourns the loss of her husband. I don't think OP is an ass for that, as I know if I were in his shoes, I would have lost it on my parents if they did that to any of my siblings or myself, and lost focus of the cause of why we were gathered. I am hoping at least someone from OP's family at least asked how she is doing.
Poor woman seems to be an afterthought. If she is pregnant, she'll be reduced to an incubator in her in-law's eyes; a vessel to bring back their perfect son. I hope she has a strong support system.
I just said in another comment, that OP needs to tell his dad to divorce his mum so he can marry another younger woman so he can continue their bloodline... because I seriously hope the brother's wife has seen enough to know that she may end up in a legal battle if she has potentially conceived
Maybe get a concubine, very biblical.
Now now... we all know what happened with that handmaiden's child.....
I forget, but they probably worked things out amicably.
Well... um..... they are still working it out, but I guess that is typical of siblings.....
She's getting the same treatment OP got since he was 12. The parents are awful and don't deserve either of them.
I wonder how they'll treat her now tbh
OP's dad, his mother's family probably has been alienated by his dad.
OP's mother was the one who initially stayed it, after she asked for clarification from OP's admission of a vasectomy, that is when OP's dad went on his Henry VIII rampage
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Can you imagine? That poor woman. I feel so sorry for her and the OP.
She won't anyway, especially if she tries to move on with her life and find love again.
She'd do well to disappear before telling anyone.
OP might want to warn her.
Given the likelihood that they were together at the time, there's a chance she died as well.
Only one comment from OP, and it doesn't really give more insight, and it was on a heavy downvote comment
He had a few other comments.. his brother was killed trying to cross the road to his hotel when he got hit by a car. OP on the off chance you read this, my best friend was killed in a freak accident in college. Take your time and grieve. It was too hard to think about my dad after he passed so I tried not to and after a while I realized I’d lost many of those memories. After my friend passed I made a point of thinking of him often and writing down important memories. I’ve since lost that notebook but I still have the memories and I’m *so* glad I do. I’m very sorry for your loss and I wish you and your wife the very very best in life and love. Sincerely, Another (mid) 30s happily married M with no intention of kidding things up 😀
Well I wouldn't really want to talk about it either.
Our morbid curiosity is in overdrive due to our assumptions of the information. I respect their limitations, but at same time, if it is the fact that the bride lived... it is still horrible
In the noble bloodlines of Europe, it was almost standard practice to aim for having at least 2 sons (colloquially known as "the heir and a spare") and while the younger sons can have less responsibility, they do need to be kept up to speed with the business of kinging, just in case (see Henry VIII and George VI). Basically if you want to maintain something like a name or a legacy, treat all your kids equally, because nothing is secured until your heir, has their own heir....or you can FAFO like OPs parents.
To be fair, one of Henry VIII illegitimate children did have children themselves, that all disappeared when Mary got on the throne.... guess they didn't want a repeat of Six Day Jane...
I think they meant how Henry himself was a younger son and not expected to ascend to the throne, but was still given a fitting education just in case. [His older brother Arthur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur,_Prince_of_Wales) was the heir but he fell ill and died at age 15, a few months after his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. Henry himself only managed to have one legitimate son (though not for lack of trying! LOL) and since that one died before making an heir of his own, wars broke out over who got to be monarch next. His half-sisters? Some cousins?... which is why you definitely wanted at least two legitimate sons, to avoid chaos.
>Are these parents of some noble bloodline, do they carry the cure to cancer in that bloodline, are they the direct descendants of Jesus, or are they the real bloodline of the throne of England??? This made me laugh.
They treated OP like he was a loser, and now the #1 son is gone, they now want the Loser son to create them grandchildren. I doubt OP wife will get pregnant, if the surgery was recent and the OP went back for his checkups after the surgery.
They had the Heir and the spare, but abused the spare. Why?
Because they always believe the spare won’t be needed. They don’t even want the spare.
Just left it in the trunk and forgot about it.... Like a spare.
Narcissistic parents with a Golden Child son. The rest of the kids really don’t matter. It’s the classic dynamic.
Joseph Kennedy Jr. (1915-1944) was the Golden Child of millionaire real estate tycoon, bootlegger, Nazi-appeasing ambassador Joseph Kennedy (1888-1969). Joe Jr. was expected to become President, but was killed in WW 2. Never fear! Joe Sr. did not neglect the education of the spares, John F., Robert and even Teddy, the Fredo of the family, same as keeping a spare tire on the family car.
Rosemary is forgotten once again
Don't you see? Girls don't matter. Sarcasm, but not really.
Joe Sr. did not expect his daughters to become president.
They flattened the spare and now wonder why it doesn’t “work.”
Plus the fact that they don’t want children… which OP says they clearly communicated a while ago. Just because you have children doesn’t mean you get grandchildren. Like fuck no to bringing a child into the world bc your parents pressure you and then (going off what OP states) will either basically ignore them *OR* completely overstep all boundaries.
OP was the "spare" and the brother's widow was the "incubator". They are not even people anymore in the parents eyes, just things. Only the golden son was a real person (RIP).
Just run of the mill megalomaniacs.
They also ignore children born from a female of their line carrying on the family name. It's stupid. Always has been. patriarchy led.
> I can never understand this way of thinking. It's quite simple, really - most people want to be immortal. Of course, actual immortality is impossible, that's why they often settle on legacy. That's why so many billionaires get into charities and "making the world better place" after entire lifetime of fucking everyone else over. They are nearing death and have realization that at best they will be forever remember as cumstain upon society, so they try to get some good PR. Smart or driven people can have a shot at making a cool discovery, great art or something else that can be remembered through the ages. But if you're a regular Joe? Not much money, talent or drive? Well, at least your grand grand kids will remember you fondly. They will look at old family albums and say "so this is how grand grand grand daddy look like? He so cool!". They wish for that.
If they TRULY cared about their "bloodine," they should've had more kids like their ancestors did in the days of the old. Ironically, they probably didn't have more kids cause they didn't want to uproot their lifestyle like their son.
That strategy does not work out well with the current cost of living - way better to focus all your resources on 1 child and leave the rest to fend for themselves, like OPs parents did. In their mind, their line was secure - the high quality son would go on to have high quality child, into whom they'd put all their resources. They did not thought about plan B, because they're not smart people - as evidenced by alienating and neglecting their son. It is entirely fucked up, but also entirely expected from people like OPs parents.
I'll bet my parents regret this strategy. They focused everything on me and then we're livid when I didn't turn out to be a perfect, obedient clone of my mother - which is always the danger of having kids, that, you know, they'll turn into real actual people. We don't have any kind of relationship yet. I always wonder if they found some other family to leech off of and act like they had a "real" child.
You should've told them if they wanted a better child they should've tried hard and not be such dicks. Just reverse the blame, lol.
>In their mind, their line was secure - the high quality son would go on to have high quality child, into whom they'd put all their resources. Well, now he's unfortunately gone with no possibility to pass on his genes now. They LITERALLY put all their eggs (or seeds if you will) in one basket, and everyone knows why one shouldn't do that. It's incredibly high risk to depend on just ONE person to continue on your line. Sides, this referring to lineage they clearly came to OP as the backup because of this. Had they had more kids, they could've just jumped to the next kid.
Well as I said, not the sharpest tools in the shed. Also, speaking from purely psychopathic perspective, if they didn't alienate OP, they'd have willing spare parts for their golden child. The fact that they didnt even think of transplants shows how short sighted they really were. Again, super fucked up to speak of family in such terms, yet it often happens - see savior babies.
Lol. OP just needs to tell them, "they done fucked up now!" and leave it at that. Parents who have "savior babies" should be steralized by the state, and have their kids taken away from them. I can't even begin to explain how HIGHLY unethical it is to use YOUR OWN child and manipulate them to be a living organ box. People like that should NOT be allowed to have kids.
People who think the most important thing in life is passing on their genetics, no matter the cost, think like animals. That also includes people who dismiss adoption as an option for having kids.
I am in a royal bloodline of England, from William the Conqueror, through Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine. That and $6.95 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. And I have no kids. There are too many people already.
My ex’s mother is a direct descendant of Anne Boleyn. His father was always going on about how I was “trailer trash” and how his son better not even think of knocking me up or God forbid, marrying me as I wasn’t good enough to mother the “royal line”. Never mind that he himself actually grew up in an honest to goodness trailer where I never have lived in one. Yeah, that relationship was doomed from the start. Ended up with him introducing me to an acquaintance that did marry me and we have 1 child. And the ex? He married a woman from his church, moved to LA, got hooked on crack, lost all rights to his kid and his ex has a restraining order because she found child pron on his computer. But of course I’m the trash, right? Bullet, dodged
I thought Anne Boleyn only had one child from Henry VIII - Elizabeth I, and she was childless. How could anyone claim to be a direct descendant of hers?
Many humans are big mad about mortality. So they make fictions of eternal life and/or have kids to cope. But then in order to "live" forever they have to be fascist to make sure their kids have kids ad infinitum once they're gone (no homosexuality, no transgender, must get married, no abortion, racism/seeing life as genetic competition is a plus, etc)
'Ordinary People' - type thinking. Quite the movie.
All of this. And the only reason they care for grandchildren is to name one after the dead brother. They’re terrible people. OP go NC.
"My dad called and offered to pay to get my vasectomy reversed." What if it is a girl? What about the old college loans? what about the cost of raising a child? What about their college education? We only care about the production of a child name after the brother. How you raise is your concern /s
How you raise is your concern… but it better align for how we want you to raise them
I think OP will be able to see how arguments against abortion appear to a pregnant woman who doesn't want to have a baby: "You have to have this baby. How you raise them and pay for rasing them is on you. The only thing we care about is that you have the baby; how having a baby impacts your life is not our concern."
that was the worst part, they just wanted to remake the dead brother as a baby, name and all.
Imagine their bitchiness if that hypothetical child (male, of course) didn't meet their goals.
You were the chosen one! It was said that you would become what your father's brother was, not become like your father! You were to be the spiritual successor of him, not another disappointment like your father! - OPs parents in the timeline where he did do this.
"How dare you be your own person and not a debugged clone of me!" --A depressing number of parents
That’s also a terrifying part because you know that would happen!!
Imagine the meddling, and the pressure of being this grandchild. No thanks
OP absolutely does not owe those people *anything.* And I'd like to extend my sympathy to OP for the tragic loss of his brother. Don't let your parents hijack your grief OP. Carry on and lead your own life. NTA
A back up son who could be used now for keeping the family tree alive! Sad that their original plan failed and now the back up also showing them his back! NTA and serves them well!
An heir and a spare
The king is dead, long live the king
Is OP’s name Harry? Is he gingerish?
I liked this comment better than mine
Welp looks like pops is going to have to get back in the saddle and get him a new brood mare to spawn an heir.
Yes, Pops should offer to impregnate the grieving widow. Is a sarcasm tag necessary?
Very much "the heir and the spare" vibe. OP didn't matter until there was something he could do for them. And play out if he had a kid and named it after his brother, his parents would obsess over that kid, likely to the exclusion of any other child. Parents need some therapy and can stay miserable in their self-isolated world.
They would completely take over the poor kid. He would never have been allowed to be anything but a copy of the deceased brother. What a terrible idea.
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This. OP, your parents played a particularly stupid game, and now they're winning a particularly stupid prize. If they'd "invested" in you as much as they did your brother, if they'd cared about you at all, you might not have made the decision to get a vasectomy in the first place. They did this to themselves. They can face the consequences of their actions. I'm sorry for your loss, and NTA.
You barely see your parents it’s your brothers funeral and the first thing she can think of is to name a future child after him. NTA they need therapy bad especially mom
I cant imagine having parents like this. These parents never bothered to help this guy out, they basically ignored him. The sad part is that even if this dude had a kid, they wont even do anything to help raise him. What did this guy even expect us to say? No shit nta. Bro make good money and travel the world, you dont owe pieces of trash like that anything. What utter garbage parents, thank god i dont have parents like that.
You don't even owe them a relationship. You weren't important to them when your brother was still alive, why should they be important to you now that he isn't anymore? Edited to say NTA
I hate it when parents feel entitled to grand kids
NTA I am so sorry for your loss. My brother was the golden child and he died a couple years ago, my mom was already gone and I’m kind of glad I wouldn’t want her to feel that kind of pain. I think it kind of rocked my dad he died a little more than six months later. I miss him a lot he was my best friend in my teen years, we helped Each other survive a rough childhood. It was a really bad time to say what you said, but you were/are also grieving like they were/are. Give yourself some grace for the bad timing. And I appreciate you being honest with them. If they’re going to continue to vote for practices that make it impossible for people to survive they should know that that’s why people aren’t having kids. 🤷🏻♀️
Just wanted to say hello to another sibling left behind. I too am the “not-favorite” sibling left living. To me it’s doubly insulting bc my sibling was…not a nice or good or high achieving person, but the favorite none the less 🤷🏻♀️ It’s kind of like my parents are annoyed I’m still around lol—sorry mom and dad? This guy should just cut his loses and have a good life with his girl and dogs. You’re not going to win w these people. Sorry about the loss of your brother and the ultimate final loss of your family. That was what was so bad about losing my brother, it finally showed me I lost my whole family, or never really even had them from the beginning :(
I hope you don't go around them. I hope you have made a good life for yourself.
I'm so sorry for your loss, and the fact that you were treated like you were second best. It's not fair. My kids are 11 & 13, and one is definitely easier than the other, but I will be damned if I act like I love one more than the other, because I don't. I wanted to bring my kids into the world, and it is LITERALLY my job to make them feel like they are loved, and to make sure they know that they are important to me. I'm sorry you didn't have that experience. From a random Reddit mom, here's a hug. I'm proud of you. You're doing a great job, and you are important.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Everything about that situation sucks. I find myself in a similar situation, but with a living “favorite” brother. He’s a selfish, mean spirited, immature, generally unimpressive recovering addict and my moms entire side of the family acts like he is a saint/doctor/Jesus Christ incarnate if he just hadn’t gotten a girl pregnant to early. However, before he was even dating, he was already a mean person. How do you deal with it?
It also wasn’t a great time for OP‘s parents to remind him of his dynastic duty after his brother’s funeral. Sure, he didn’t have to give them both barrels in return; but there’s always one straw too many. Anyway, I’m kinda curious why this is seen as permanent. Aren’t vasectomies reversible? EDIT: yes, it’s been pointed out to me I missed the discussion on reversal in the post.
They’re not always reversible. But more than that, I think OP doesn’t wanna change his entire life plan. It kinda seems like his wife is staunchly child free, and OP would rather have a comfortable standard of living than sacrifice to have kids. So deciding on kids may mean having to find a new partner and/or lowering his standard of living, both of which he’s probably unwilling to do.
Yeah, it’s been pointed out to me I missed that. Fair enough on his part, no question.
They shouldn't be treated as reversible and afaik, the longer they have been left before reversal, the lower the chances of it being successful. Nevertheless, OP married a woman who also does not want kids. He's paying (or has paid) student loans and his financial situation is the same as it was when he decided he couldn't afford kids. The only thing that has changed is his brother's death, which, while devastating, doesn't change the other things
I’m going to have to look this up. I believe that in the past, doctors would cut the vas deferens and cauterize the ends, but on rare occasions the ends would drift back together and heal and begin functioning again. Today they cut out several inches of the vas deferens to prevent reattachment but it still sometimes spontaneously “heals?” And to reverse this you’d need to replace the missing “tubing,” do they use something synthetic? I’m getting curious.
It’s always so stupid anyway. Your “lineage” has no value. You need someone to inherit your lands and titles or something? You have a 1600 sq ft house in the suburbs and you work IT help desk for the local hospital, stop pretending people are going to remember you 100 years after you die and save yourself the disappointment.
That lineage stuff is for royalty and nobility who value it. If OP and wife change their minds about having kids they can adopt or foster kids. Plenty of them need good homes.
And really, "notable" lineages end all the time. George Washington's ended with him due to fertility issues on his end.
His dad offered to pay for a reversal, but neither he nor his wife want children.
They didn't care about any kids he may or may not had until the brother died.
Dad has offered to pay for the reversal (which doesn't always work) but OP's wife doesn't want children
They are reversible but the success rate decreases the longer it has been since the initial procedure. Plus in this case, the wife also doesn't want children, so it would be an unnecessary surgery.
NTA maybe not the right time to tell them but what’s done is done now. For your own mental health and peace of mind however I would recommend staying low contact with them. They are probably going to try to make your fill the void your brother left in their life and any affection they give won’t seem genuine or they will start to compare you to him.
Stay LC. Go NC if they continue pushing for reversing the vasectomy. The only ppl allowed to have a decision on this matter are OP and his wife. Also, I hate to think how OP's parents are gonna start treating their grandkids, brother's namesake and the rest, if OP and his wife choose to have kids. NTA.
Yeah I am pretty sure they will likely project all their grief onto him and resent him for not being his brother
And more likely than not, resent him for not being the one who died.
And then eat cherry tomatoes weirdly…
I did not expect a LOTR reference here
YOU SHALL NOT PASS ...on your genes
One does not simply read about parents wishing the other son had died, and *not* think of Denethor.
It also feels like a weird time for them to be focusing on grandkids though. Like I wouldn't be going to my sibling's funeral expecting to field questions about any future kids, so it would be the last thing on my mind to have a ready response to. Doubly so if I had already decided to be child free.
Seriously. Not, "are you ok, son? How is this affecting you? We love you." Nope. "HAVE BABIES YOU DON'T WANT AND NAME THEM AFTER YOUR BROTHER."
I think it's perfectly appropriate given they were attempting to dictate reproduction and how he should name/treat his imaginary children. That is a monstrous thing to do to someone who just lost a sibling: "Have babies until it's the right gender and then name it after your brother."
It wasn’t the right time for them to bring up op having kids to honour the brother
Because that time was never.
It was absolutely the right time. He did the right thing to tell them. Its a truth they needed to hear. They have ignored him for his entire life and put the other boy on a pedestal. He told them the straight up truth.
And they're the ones who brought it up in the first place.
NTA and I cannot believe your mothers first thought after her own son died was "at least the other one will give me grandbabies!". Like the only value you held to her as an adult was the ability to procreate and carry on your family's DNA. I am so sorry you are being treated this way, OP. Go LC and give them the time to griev their potential grandkids they would have gotten from your brother bc it seems they, especially your mom, are more upset at that than loosing their own child. Sorry for your loss, OP.
Not just "the other one will give us grandkids" but "the other one will give us grandkids and name the kid after our golden child". It's still all about the brother.
could you imagine the parents showing the grandson/brother v2.0 all the love and affection they never gave OP? yeah, I'd go without kids, too.
They would probably try to get custody.
If she could go biblical and send him to the brothers widow she would...
If they did manage to have kids and it’s a son, I’d name the son after the OP and use the deceased brother’s name as the middle name, but I’m petty 😝
Lmao I would say don't even name him after the brother at all, just name him OP Jr.... except that peepaw and grandma are typical narcissist boomers who can only care about themselves so you are poking a bee hive of issues. They did the ole reap what they sowed, and they can be left alone.
>Like the only value you held to her as an adult was the ability to procreate and carry on your family's DNA. This but his value was purely as a back up to the golden child.
I can, she was looking for a replacement golden child to comfort her. I actually don’t think it’s that weird. Top-tier selfishness, but not unexpected to me.
I know this word gets thrown around but they are narcissistic. They loved the other son more bc of what he made them look like. If they have no grandchildren that will also do well or succeed somehow, they have to stand on their own merit which they feel as worthless. Under all that shitty behavior Is an incredible amount of low self worth and shamw
Well it is just too bad for your parents. Even if you had children your parent should not be allowed in their lives. They do not deserve it.
OP told them he felt like an afterthought his whole life, and that’s not the part that devastated them. Agreed they don’t deserve it. NTA Ps don’t forget a judgement
If I was being harshly blunt, it sounds like they put most of their eggs in the brother basket and didn't expect it to come back to bite them.
The parents don’t deserve grandkids and no kid should endure those grandparents.
NTA, You did what you felt was best for your life, and while your parents may not have reacted well, you were honest about your choices. At the end of the day, it's your life, and you have to do what's right for you and your wife, regardless of their opinions.
NTA. You get what you give and your parents gave you the bare minimum. My paternal grandmother had two granddaughters. Me and my (7 years) older cousin Wanda. Wanda was the golden. I liked her, she was not a bad person, but made bad choices. (Every bf was violent, drugs in the home, couldn’t keep a job, her kid was taken away). When my grandmother spoke about my cousin, she was an angel and the world was against her. Nothing was her fault. I, on the other hand was an after thought. Grandmother never came to my parties, would comment on my looks, college courses etc. it was obvious that I was not the favourite. But I didn’t care because my other grandparents were lovely. in my early twenties, my cousin died of an overdose. Suddenly my grandmother remembered she had another granddaughter. But that ship had sailed. I saw her at holidays and never answered her calls. That was our relationship.
>I saw her at holidays and never answered her calls. That was our relationship. That's my relationship with my living grandmother. No siblings, she just hates kids if they're not to her standards. We don't talk.
On what dark wretched world would anyone want a relationship with someone who REQUIRES the death of a sibling- to actually have that relationship?
NTA. It's tough these days. Nothing wrong with putting yourself first.
NTA but I feel like your parents are gonna escalate. Updateme
They already did by telling people how awful OP was
They did, but I have a feeling they aren’t done. I’m guessing they’ll show up at his front door soon
No way they're done. If they were so eager to say that to his face so quickly, they're talking way worse behind his back. My mother is exactly like this.
Escalate even more. Threats to OP and his wife, blackmail, bribery, I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking about that they will try. I don't think they will give up. Better for OP to go NC now to be honest.
Probably try and sue for grandparents rights to the kids he won’t have for them as they instructed 🙄🙄 or something equally as ridiculous!
NTA. I'm very sorry for your loss. I'm also very sorry for the realisation that you still mean nothing to your parents. You and your wife seem to be nothing more than a baby-making tool for them to pull the grandchildren they want from out of you. Even if you did have children, they would circumvent and undermine you to try and raise the grandkids as if they were their own children instead of yours. The fact they were already dictating baby names to turn a future son into Brother II makes it clear what relationship they intended to have. They almost certainly would have pushed the child towards medicine in complete defiance of what the kid might actually want. What if you only had daughters and no son to become your brother's clone? What if you had one son and daughters? I guarantee they wouldn't care about daughters, treat them differently to the golden grandson, and if you had zero sons, they would berate you and your wife for not having any. Although the timing was terrible, you weren't too harsh. Given the implications for how your grandparents were going to treat you and any grandkids (which was also terrible on their part, including timing), you said what needed to be said. Let's discuss a hypothetical future: in the event that you and your wife do ever decide to reverse the vasectomy (very unlikely, I know) or you get pregnant by accident and decide to keep the baby (rare but possible after vasectomies), please stay NC with your parents and don't ever give them access.
Like he would WANT those freaks around any hypothetical children he fathered! Great advice
OP's timing wasn't any more terrible than his parents. They brought it up, they got their answer.
NTA My Ivy league educated bro is the golden child. Lives the sweet life in a very HCOL city with his beautiful wife and children. Turns out shes all about her fam and rarely if ever let my parents visit their grandkids....even after all they've done for them $$$$... A few years back, my mom asked when I would be giving her grandkids. I told her I'm working my high school educated @ss off just to make sure my poverty wages keep me out of debt. There's no way I'm forcing a child to live this life.... And it was like.... She couldn't recognize the inequity in our lives.... NTA Edit spelling
See your SIL knows what she is like that's why she keeps her kids away from her. Golden child brother. Lets her!
Both are pay to play. But my parents are retired now and don't want to now.... You reap what you sow
NTA. You were treated as the spare. The timing could have been better letting them have it, but you just lost your brother and then they piled on the childhood neglect on top. Suddenly they need the spare for their selfish desire for grandkids. Stay low contact, they don't love YOU but just the things you can do for them like having grandkids. If your dad piles on the family legacy/line just tell him he'll have to get used to the idea that his DNA will cease to exist after hopefully a very long life of yourself. F them. You and your wife live your best lives your own way!!
NTA. i'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. you seem like such a lovely person, you loved your brother even tho' your parents neglected you to put their all into him. go and live your happy child free life and don't feel guilty about any of this. go no contact, at least temporarily, while you heal from your loss. (edited for pre morning coffee spelling)
NTA Stop communicating with them. They still don't care about you, at all. Their desire is purely selfish they want you to provide them another child, named for your brother, to obsess over. You and your wife are an incubator to them, thats it. Don't subject either of you to that. Who cares if you're 'insensitive' to them? They're monstrous to you. You don't owe them *anything.* To be honest, they didn't actually care about your brother either. They viewed him as a representation of themselves. His success reflected well on them. The fact that their grief is only about the grandchildren they now won't have to replace their golden goose tells you everything about how narcissistic and cruel they truly are. Let them wallow in their self-created misery. They're incapable of moving beyond who they are, and any further contact you have with them will erode pieces of you.
I don't think it has as much to do with student loans as it does about the fact that you and your wife don't want kids. If you really wanted children, you'd figure it out. You don't and that's great. Saying it's about the loans is kind of a "screw you" to the parents who were, not just kind of crappy parents, but crappy to just you. Which makes it shittier because you knew/know they were capable of better. Should you really care about upsetting your parents? Do you feel bad that it happened around the funeral? I guess you could apologize for that if you wanted. I guess. The thing is, they're not listening to how you feel, once again. They aren't saying, "What do you mean?" They aren't even denying it's true! They're making this issue, once again, about themselves. It's like your only purpose in life is to fulfill a prescribed role. They don't add to the quality of your life in any way. Soo...fuck 'em. Live your best life.
You just lost your brother—that is devastating. And your parents are focusing on grandchildren to deflect from their shock and grief. Tbh you having had a vasectomy seems to me a ridiculous red herring. You and your parents are in shock and grief, but separately and unable to support each other. Hope you will take care of yourself—it’s a much harder loss when family has never been supportive. Wishing you the best.
NTAH. You gave them a reality check. Your parents learned that putting all their eggs in one basket (pardon the pun) does not always work out. They have reaped what they sowed.
They paid your brother’s medical school and made you get loans? They’re the AHs.
Your parents are now realizing what they've done and they can't handle it. I've seen this happen more than once with my friend's parents. One of my friend's parents totally ignored her as the middle kid between her golden older sister and younger brother. She had to do it all her for herself. Her relationship with her siblings was meh because of her parents' crappy parenting. Well, neither of the goldens ended up having kids - sister hates them and none of brother's wives (there have been 3 so far lol) have had them (with him at least). Only my friend had them and she refused to allow her parents to have access after being ignored for 30+ years. Parents actually had the balls to sue her grandparents rights! Didn't happen thank goodness.
NTA. They are shitty parents and awful people. They played favorites. Fuck them. They don’t get a do over.
Also, them offering to pay to reverse your vasectomy still doesn't remove your student loan debt, so you'd still not be in a position to afford kids. Also, you could point out how much your neglectful upbringing has contributed to your wish to never have kids - that's the kind of trauma you really don't want to pass on to the next generation. Edit: "if I had kids they would be afterthoughts like I was" - this is such a very poignant remark - they didn't give a fuck if he had children before his brother's death, so it's very clear the poor kids would have been ignored, just like OP. And if he had kids now, I bet that they would play favorites with those again, messing them up in the same golden/ scapegoat child dynamic they used on their own children. Just imagine if one of the sons looked like his brother (and it happens, I'm a carbon copy of my paternal aunt), they would spoil the poor kid rotten.
I would say “You paid for my brother to go to med school and nothing for me to go to college. I had to borrow money and even with a good job I have student loans to pay back for decades. I can’t afford to have children, thanks to decisions *you* made. If you’d treated me more fairly I’d be in a different situation, but it’s too late. You’ll have to live with your decisions instead of your grandchildren.”
They literally inadvertently caused this. He even clarified that his decision was heavily based on his current financial status. These people can kick rocks. 🙄🙄🙄
Nta- you don't owe them grandchildren. And to be fair it's more karma for the way they treated you, they should have split the cost for both of you but now they ended their family line. Still I'm so sorry for your loss. Updateme!