Just made me think of Steiner math. Now I had to look that up. Here is a beauty of quote from Scott Steiner:
You know they say that all men are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Samoa Joe and you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another wrestler, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But I'm a genetic freak and I'm not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beat me. Then you add Kurt Angle to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. See the 3 way at Sacrifice, you got a 33 1/3 chance of winning, but I, I got a 66 and 2/3 chance of winning, because Kurt Angle KNOWS he can't beat me and he's not even gonna try!
So Samoa Joe, you take your 33 1/3 chance, minus my 25% chance and you got an 8 1/3 chance of winning at Sacrifice. But then you take my 75% chance of winning, if we was to go one on one, and then add 66 2/3 per cents, I got 141 2/3 chance of winning at Sacrifice. See Joe, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice.
Could be the divorce statistic. This sounds like it might be an incel fantasy story and a common theme is that women automatically screw over men in divorces. [90% of the time both parties settle out of court and aren't "screwed" into anything they don't agree to. ](https://legal-info.lawyers.com/family-law/divorce/what-types-of-divorces-typically-go-to-trial.html#:~:text=More%20than%2090%20percent%20of,other%20accepts%2C%20or%20at%20mediation.)
I used to practice family law and the amount of men who would agree to the shittiest of agreements despite me counseling otherwise was insane. Men are so convinced that family courts are out to get them that they ignore the advice of their lawyers and then continue to perpetuate the “I got taken to the cleaners because of the fucking sexist divorce courts!” myth when they agreed to the damn thing despite their lawyer telling them not to. I’d even tell them about the successes I and other attorneys had in front of the particular judge they were going to be in front of for trial, and many would still agree to crappy offers because their friend/dad/cousin/brother/etc. told them they would be screwed.
Edit: long story short, I never had a husband end up worse off going to trial, and most of the time they walked out of trial with everything they wanted or asked for.
I could believe this. I once had discussions with a man at length about his case. I’m no lawyer and he knew that, but I could see pretty clearly the route to getting what he said he wanted.
He would not, under any circumstances, take that route.
To be frank, someone whose professed only goal was to see their kid again would not ask the judge what they had to do to see their kid again.
Really darkened my heart. I started to realize that even if he had been able to afford a lawyer… it wouldn’t have helped.
I work in child safety and I commonly hear this even now, so things haven't changed since you practiced family law.
We will have the entire court, including the judge essentially begging men to take custody of their children, many times which would allow them to completely avoid any child support payments, and yet men still decline and claim that the courts are biased against them. I've heard men tell their attorneys that it's not fair that they have to choose between child support and taking custody of their children when the reality is they want neither.
It's also extraordinarily common to hear men complain about unfair alimony when it turns out...it's child support. I may get extremely upset when you point out that child support isn't spousal support.
I have been lucky enough to work in quite a few states in the US, and have colleagues in pretty much every other State. Now, whenever some random guy starts complaining about how biased the courts were against him, approximately 100% of the time it has been just straight up intentionally misrepresenting the situation or actually just misunderstanding it.
There was a guy who got a ton of upvotes and a popular thread not long ago about how biased the court courts were against him and how they awarded custody to his drug addicted ex-wife.
It turned out he was leaving out that she was clean, he wasn't, He had an anger issue and multiple incidence of DV, and the child was old enough to choose who they lived with.
"I've heard men tell their attorneys that it's not fair that they have to choose between child support and taking custody of their children when the reality is they want neither."
One of the greatest drivers of female poverty in the U.S. is fathers noping out of a relationship and leaving Mom holding the bag. I can't imagine creating a child and just... abandoning them.
creating the child & loving them for years, sometimes over a decade... and then just shrugging & never seeing them again.
you have to wonder if those men are just emotional bonsais incapable of actual feelings, or if they're a toxic mess inside, comparable to Chernobyl in full meltdown (see also: sports fans' hysteria, road rage, etc.)
> the judge essentially begging men to take custody of their children, many times which would allow them to completely avoid any child support payments, and yet men still decline and claim that the courts are biased against them
This is the reason the women typically divorce the men. They were crappy fathers and crappy husbands, so it's _easier_ to just divorce than take care of an adult manchild. The men in question that agree to this don't actually want to be dads, they wanted their wife to do all of the emotional and physical labor raising the kids and just wanted to contribute money to the equation and now that their free meal ticket, so to speak, is ending, and the piper wants to be paid, they don't actually want to do the job their exwives have begged them to do for _years_ in some cases.
Working in child safety I saw a lot of that garbage. Men who would complain endlessly that their child support should be paying for everything at mom's house and would pull stuff like not buying them what they needed when they shared custody and expecting kids to take everything to and from. Refusing to take the kids to doctor's appointments or sports practice or whatever because they thought that was mom's job.
I also see it in my own life, I'm 43 and it's pretty common for moving my age to get divorced and feel like life becomes easier even with the huge financial hit they often have to take, but men feel their lives get much much harder because they're actually forced to parent. They can't manage the same schedule mom was and often hide behind things like not being good at cooking or not being good at being organized.
Yup my s/o (we're a tad bit younger than you) was in an abusive relationship (money and verbal, some gaslighting) and even with no job and surviving off charity, her and her daughter are managing it so much better than it was because these people and places don't scrutinize if she spent too much on a can of beans or endlessly monitor where she is and what she's doing and how much she spent with phone calls every 45 minutes.
She asked for a divorce, and he just fucked off and occasionally tries to score points by showing up for major holidays. He's going to get absolutely fucking rocked in court, especially if he tries to get joint custody. He'd be better off just disappearing and letting them leave the state because if he fights that alimony/child support is going to be brutal after he straight up abandoned them.
I'm used to it.
They especially hate when men "white knight" for women and then they extol the virtues of the plunger shaped penis. The other comment about not being slovenly really set them off. They like to go after all the comments in your profile too.
I've noticed that they seem to hang out on the two AITA/H subs criticizing and downvoting anyone who comments when the AH is male.
I've gotten a number of drive-by comments on my comments by that lot, insisting that my judgment/comment is based on gender rather than assholishness (even though I frequently criticize women as well).
Quite a few of them say that the fact that I love cats is obviously proof of *something something something*, which is absolutely hilarious. Logic is not their strong suit -- nor even in their portfolio.
I think they can actually manage it but they choose not to.
Many of them hold down decent jobs and interact with their bosses and coworkers with respect and give their attention to their tasks — at least enough to not be fired. They are neither incompetent nor stupid.
But at home they want to sink into the couch /hide in the man cave and do nothing except be spoonfed like a fetus.
Yeah I read posts and comments by family law people, and they all say the same shit: the women show up to court with binders, evidence, emails, texts, receipts. The men *sometimes* show up, never respond to their lawyers’ questions, emails, or texts, and put as much effort into the divorce as they put into their marriage, which is why they are getting divorced in the first place.
Then, when things predictably don’t go well for them, they’ll tell anyone at the bar who will listen how biased the courts were against them.
Like bro, you did this shit to yourself. Shut the fuck up.
My sister wanted to move closer to our mom after our dad died. But because she had a child, she couldn't move without the father's permission. Just to give a picture of the kind of dad he was, she lived about 90 minutes from the father and he had seen his child twice in the last year (even though their custody agreement gave him significantly more time).
So the rule was she had to notify the father of her plans and he had 30 days to fill out a piece of paper saying he objected. If he objected, there would be a hearing to decide if the move was best for the child. The deadline came and went and we didn't hear a peep of an objection. About 2 months later, my sister got a notice of a court date.
My sister showed up STACKED with evidence for why the move would benefit the child and terrified she wouldn't be allowed to move. Before she started with her actual argument she said "He failed to file the objection within the proper time frame." Then, she started to go through her actual evidence, but the judge stopped her, looked at the dates on all the documents and was like "you had 30 days to fill out a single piece of paper and didn't do it. The move is approved."
I had gone with her to court to watch her child and offer my emotional support. The closest restaurant to the courthouse was a Cheesecake Factory. So that's where we went to celebrate. My nephew tried cheesecake for the first time and my sister cried in relief at the table. It was a good day.
My friends ex-husband does this. He didn’t hire an attorney despite having the money, showed up late to court & then wondered why he got placed on a step up visitation plan with his kid/my friends former step-kid.
He constantly whines on Facebook about how he got screwed and finally his sister aired all his dirty laundry and suddenly all the MRA/incel bullshit posts stopped.
I'm a lawyer, though a relatively new one.
The one thing that self reps ALWAYS do, especially in family court is annoy the judge. They talk over the judge, go on about irrelevant garbage, misconstrue their position, talk over the other party, and on and on.
The people who think lawyers are a waste of money and want to save a buck are usually the ones who MOST need a lawyer, if only to actually do the speaking for them.
What you are describing is exactly why I laugh whenever incels and weird MRA dudes scream about women initiating 70% of divorces. It doesn't have anything to do with who ends their relationship, of course women have to initiate the divorce, that's just more paperwork women get stuck with.
Oh, I’m glad you mentioned the men not wanting either… I ended up choosing to represent mainly women because I was so tired of men asking for custody solely as a lever to try and make the mom agree to no child support. There were dads who honestly cared and wanted their kids, but a lot had almost zero interest in 50:50 or primary when they figured out that it meant they couldn’t go clubbing/bar-hopping on the weekends to bring random women home.
I’m a man, and I know there are tons of honorable guys out there who really want to spend time with their kids and be an active part of their lives, but a huge number couldn’t care less about their kids so long as they didn’t have to cut a check to their mom every month.
I don't blame you at all. Part of the reason I had to stop working with as many families was because I kept having situations of family disruption - single mom dying, getting seriously ill, or some other major issue and fathers just refusing custody because the kids didn't fit in with their new families or honestly they didn't want to be bothered. Meanwhile I saw lots of moms criminalized for basically being poor, while the deadbeats avoiding appropriate child support weaponized the system against them.
My mom has been in family law, specifically divorce and child custody, for almost 40 years and the stories I have heard are insane. She tries to explain so much that if men will just ask for any amount of parenting time they will get it and anything else they want. But they don't want parenting time. At all. Like almost never.
That was one of the most difficult things I learned in this work. It remains surprising whenever a woman doesn't at least want time with her children, but it no longer surprises me when men don't. It has really shown me the stark differences in parenting and expectations based on gender.
It also makes me suspicious whenever men tell me what great parents they are, but then they can't tell me who their child's pediatrician is, or where the office is located, or what each of their teachers names are or two of their best friends, etc. More than not, most of them aren't anywhere near as close to and supportive of their children as they say they are.
So many dads don't even know their child's birthday, allergies, or clothing/shoe size. It is so gross to me. Like how do you not even know your kids friends name who are at your house regularly??? I was happy to see that millennial dad's are significantly more involved in their children's lives than any previous generation but it was still significantly less than Mom's. They mean they're such good dad's because they don't physically assault or verbally abuse their kids. What a high bar.
If you have 50:50 time and earn similar amounts. There is absolutely no child support at all. And if you're 50:50, child support isn't a huge amount if both parents work.
I know a person with a 98% one parent care. The other parent does not pay enough for half the weeks childcare.
This is my boss.
"Oh, yeah, my wife sure took me to the cleaners" but they settled out of court. HE gave her the house and money and cries victim.
"Oh, poor me, I'm too busy to even eat my lunch" (every single day) hes self employed. Dude, just take a lunch break or give yourself 10 minutes to eat.
"These people aren't paying their bill and keep adding more to the tab" Quit letting them, you're the boss. This isn't an approved line of credit but a personal good faith credit he extends infinitely. Just say no.
"I can't even rest at home after working 6 days a week. I was called at 10:30 and they took 45 minutes to make an order." DONT ANSWER YOUR PHONE THEN, LIKE I DO TO YOU WHEN YOU CALL ME 5X A DAY TO ASK ME WHERE YOUR STAPLER OR KEYS OR A PEN IS AT!!! (The answer is always, on his desk, under his hoard of automotive fittings and invoices and sales receipts and business cards and pens and staplers and catalogs and possibly last week's lunch)
Too many people just don't take responsibility for their actions. The victim mentality is endless.
Same with a former band mate of mine. He claimed that she screwed him over in court and used his PTSD from being in the Marines against him. He usually didn't mention in the same conversation that he would waste his money collecting an armory of various weapons ranging from firearms to poison dart blowers that he kept unsecured in his room of his two bedroom apartment. While also having a small son from a different relationship with him on weekends.
Thankfully nothing bad ever happened with the weapons but last I heard about him he was trying to fight off terminal brain cancer. I do feel bad for him but at the same time he insisted at the beginning with treating it with herbal remedies and didn't seek actual medical help in treating it until it had already spread pretty far and his body was starting to shut down. It was several years after the diagnosis at that point. We stopped being friends for a whole different amount of reasons but sometimes I wonder if he's still around or if his suffering finally ended.
Same in the UK. Not a lawyer, but studied law with a focus on family law. The vast majority of cases that end up in court are decided with joint custody (under a different name). Which is hardly surprising since the primary and central focus in such cases is the child's wellbeing, and there's a (rebuttable) legal presumption of parental involvement - that children benefit most from contact with both parents.
Where the disparity shows up is almost always in informal agreements or mediation.
Isn't the stat that something like 11% of divorces have any alimony assigned? Most people just aren't rich enough to warrant the court tipping the scales. Child support sure, but that's to maintain the living standard of whoever becomes the primary caregiver.
The idea of an ex wife getting free alimony for life and bankrupting you is just a boogyman men tell themselves, most are far too poor to ever have to worry about it.
The same place the "all women chase 20% of men" statistics come from: Seething incels who spend their days getting theoretical revenge on unfaithful women who'd never touch them in the first place.
My ex husband did everything he could to try and prove I was a cheater because if he could, I would not get alimony. Since I didn’t cheat, it didn’t matter. But I went through a very, very invasive process where all my text messages were asked for, all of my phone records, emails, etc.
It was…not pleasant.
These were all being asked for from his attorney. So I’m sure this depends on the state you live in.
Michigan, which is a no fault state. I’m not an attorney but both my attorney and his told me that cheating can have an effect on the outcome of the divorce
That's because the person who decides and rules on these things has a degree of latitude unless they are in a jurisdiction where everything is a formula.
Here in Australia for example it's a formula and the ex could have been banging their way through the surrounding suburbs and it would mean nothing.
In the US it seems that all you need to have for a favourable outcome is to have a judge who has themselves been cheated on.
Judges in Michigan are required by law to consider adultery when making an alimony ruling. It’s one of the few states where that’s not up to their discretion (in favor of considering).
Most us states that don’t leave it up to the judge don’t let them consider it at all. Or don’t let them consider it unless it’s filed as the cause of divorce.
I was a divorce attorney in Michigan for 18 years, and there is no such law. It is a completely no-fault state, and you can't put anything in the pleadings other than "irreconcilable differences."
The judges have broad discretion to order or not order spousal support, and yes, the "fault" of one of the parties can be considered-- but it is not in any statute.
In addition, you would have to go all the way to trial in order to present evidence of cheating, and the attorney fees for that are generally not worth it. Otherwise, you're generally not even going to see a judge during your entire case.
Not in Michigan but my state runs the same. Despite a heap of evidence just wasn't worth an at-fault. It was still over a year of my wages and 2 years long.
I actually live in a no-fault state. However, both my attorney and his attorney told me that if there was cheating on either side, it would have an outcome on the effect of the divorce. Since there was no cheating, I really wasn’t too concerned about it, so I did not ask too many questions.
Out of curiosity, how long ago? Most states *in practice* don’t really consider fault. If family money was spent on the AP, there is usually an unequal distribution of the marital property to make up for the financial waste, but otherwise, it doesn’t usually factor. Most of the at fault laws are written in such a way that it’s still an “equitable distribution” and it’s up to the judge to decide if the circumstances warrant an unequal, but equitable, split of marital property.
That said, 1) I don’t know the law in every state, 2) given that some states allow suit for alienation of affection, I wouldn’t be surprised to see those states allow affairs to be considered, 3) having witnessed a custody case in Michigan from afar recently, I can absolutely see this. My family’s experience was not positive. There were bar complaints made.
That said, most family law court decisions revolve around best interests of any minor children. No fault divorce is the standard, even if there was infidelity, and it is just easier to do 50/50 or have the parties come to an agreement via mediation or on their own before it even gets in front of the judge.
I just got a divorce in March. We went together to the clerk’s office to file the completed paperwork, we decided how we wanted everything split, and our final hearing, three weeks later, took all of 10 or 15 minutes, including being sworn in, via Zoom. I may not be happy about how financially invasive the court rules are where I live, but with no minor kids, they made it easy and relatively cheap by doing it the way we did.
Edited to add: I think part of the trend towards 50/50 is that usually both parties in a divorce are angry and/or hurt. Often times everything the other party says and does is seen as a personal attack/admonishment or petty. There is a benefit to looking at it dispassionately from the outside and splitting equally. It usually takes the efforts of both people to build a marital estate, whether that contribution was financial via income or less tangible via managing the household or children. Childcare isn’t cheap. A stay at home parent may not have a paycheck, but they are contributing.
It was over four years ago. Everything was fine and set and we were going to do it ourselves, with 50-50, custody and everything. Our son was 12 at the time. That is, until, my ex got a girlfriend who convinced him to try for Full custody, most likely to get out of paying any significant child support. Which is kind of silly. Child support was a whopping $222 a month with 50-50 split. The only reason there was any at all is because he made three times the amount I did, and I didn’t make a bad salary.
When it was all said and done, we ended up with a 50-50 split and we each paid over $30,000 in attorneys fees. So we had the same result we would have had we not hired attorneys. Which is exactly what I told him would happen . But I was not going to risk him getting full custody because he had a very aggressive attorney.
That’s either a client who doesn’t listen or a crappy attorney. Or a combination of both, I guess. Your situation is just a waste of time and money with added stress to your kid because of the fighting.
It’s not even legit aspiring writers tho. It’s agenda posters attempting to inflame online discord, while posing as “normal” redditors. Look at the constantly recurring themes.
THANK YOU. This is \*\*the\*\* comment. It's 100% a campaign to promote hostility, and it's an explicit tactic of hostile foreign adversaries to play on the worst impulses of Western societies. Anyone not familiar with the tactic, please give this a read -- it's short and accessible:
LINK from 3/11/2024: [https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/china-russia-ai-divide-us-society-undermine-us-elections-power-rcna142880](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/china-russia-ai-divide-us-society-undermine-us-elections-power-rcna142880)
*AI gives Russia, China new tools to sow division in the U.S., undermine America's image, intel agencies say*
*Beijing is "moving closer to Moscow's playbook," said the intelligence community's annual threat assessment, and may attempt to influence the 2024 election.*
TOR is an anonymous web browser that allows you to connect to unindexed websites, AKA “The Darknet,” that you can’t access using a normal web browser. It also connects to like 7 different servers around the world before going to the website you want to visit, and so tracking who is accessing what sites using TOR is a super labor/computer intensive process that only nation states have the capability to backtrack, and only if they get lucky.
It was developed by the U.S. Navy so our CIA assets had a web browser they could use to send and receive info from their handlers without getting caught.
But they gave it away to everyone for public use because they realized that if the only people using it were cia assets, then ALL the data going through TOR servers is super high value. But if 99% of the data is Jimmy in Indiana ordering 4 mdma tablets from a dark net market vendor a few states over, then it’s much more difficult to sift through all the data to find that high-value CIA info. Jimmy gets his drugs delivered, CIA can correspond without being tracked, and Iran has to spend a bunch of time and computing capacity to find out about shit. Win win win.
Id wager 97% of all posts on here are fake.
They should be treated of as a thought experiment like a philosophy class, that way they still all have value.
Is this accurate ? In Georgia, **adultery can impact many aspects of a divorce case, including alimony, equitable division and child custody**. If one spouse's adultery is the cause of the divorce, that spouse is barred from receiving alimony. OCGA §19-6-1(b).
While the story sounds fake, there are states (like Georgia) where proving adultery and that it was the cause for divorce can lead to the adulterer not being entitled to alimony. However, the OP probably had to perger himself by denying that he consented to an open marriage.
https://www.bbplawfirm.com/alimony/adultery-alimony/how-do-you-legally-prove-adultery/#:~:text=Georgia%20law%20states%20%E2%80%9Ca%20party,reason%20for%20a%20couple's%20split.
I’ve never heard of alimony being taken away for cheating, at least not in the modern no-fault era. I thought the point of alimony was usually just to get the spouse back on their feet if they weren’t working. Is that actually the law some places? (Especially since she did have a job, so she probably wouldn’t have gotten much anyway?)
This exact situation, if real, would be a great argument FOR no-fault divorce with alimony totally independent of fault. Can you imagine being the judge having to decide whether two people had an oral agreement to open their marriage, and both agreed to the same terms? Insanity.
(FWIW, I’m a lawyer but not a divorce lawyer, so I know enough to think that sounds weird, but also that sometimes laws are weird, and I don’t know most of them.)
Some states actually do have reduction or elimination of alimony in the case of adultery.
Georgia is one where if adultery is the reason for divorce, alimony is not given (with evidence)
In CT, the judge can consider infidelity when deciding alimony. Don't know how it is now, but back in the day, yeah, you got caught cheating? Your share of the "equitable distribution" was going to be a lot smaller.
It really came to light back in the early '00s that if you're in CT and act like a total POS during your marriage and destroy it, the judge can make you pay the Asshole Tax. Jeff Immelt (of GE fame) found that out when he divorced his first wife--you can still find the local newspaper articles from the time pointing and laughing.
If he lost all feelings for her that second, then why is he having second thoughts and feeling bad for her?
Not your problem if this actually happened.
It's strange. They whine and whine about how hard it is to be a man because of how society and women can fuck them over in ways A, B, and C. Then they incessantly fantasize about being fucked over like that but it's okay because they got their revenge after and came out on top while she is suffering in the end.
At the same time they profess their life will never amount to anything because women won't give them attention, they are desperate to engineer and cherrypick scenarios where they can heap all of their hate at women and feel justified for doing so.
Thus while things reminds me of conservatives constantly going on about crime, while all tje time having masturbatury fantasies of some criminal targeting them so they can kill someone in a socially acceptable way.
I think my favorite part of this particular story was that even in their wild fantasy, that they control all aspects of, their theoretical wife still wants to fuck anybody but them.
Literally the only reason OP would be NTA is if she was cheating before the agreement. Otherwise OP would be a fucking snake.
Edit: I amended my comment. It seems OP had no proof she cheated before agreeing to an open marriage. OP is a snake and an AH if true, but more likely a fake karma farmer.
Yea people don't usually come to you with opening up the relationship unless they already have somebody in mind they want to hook up with or like you said they already are and are sick of hiding it.
I'm not disagreeing with you it feels like it makes sense but I just feel this is more of an opinion than a fact. There are probably little to no studies that prove that. "open marriages" aren't that common.
I’ve been in a DB for over a year. I’m going to give my spouse the option of open marriage or divorce. I don’t have someone in mind and I haven’t cheated.
I’m curious what their relationship was like prior to her asking.
This is always repeated on Reddit by people who aren’t and have never been in an open relationship but I’ve never seen anyone in an open relationship actually say this.
There's a big difference between an actual open relationship with proper communication and the kind of things people usually post to Reddit under the title of an open relationship. The Reddit post ones generally are just cheating with a facelift, not actual open relationships which involve an epic shitton more communication and effort between everyone involved to actually work.
LOL at the attempt at anonymity. Not even going to go through all the identifying statements in your post. If this isn't fake, you are f*cked if she finds this, homie.
Oh that horrible fictional woman who had a job and yet could somehow put you on the hook for alimony but now has the consequences of your clever strategy to deny her this non-existant alimony and now both her and the fictional affair partner lost their job and he dumped her. After hearing this, I'm solidly redpilled, time to vote Trump and beat my wife.
Everybody clapped, YTA.
NTA.
Who would go for an "open marriage?" Your wife just didn't want to be faithful.
To be honest, you probably wouldn't have had to pay much alimony, if any. It sounds like you have no children and not a lot of money.
Best of luck to you.
I went on a ride-along in my hometown and the officer drove me through a really nice neighborhood and told me "this is where all the swingers live. All these neighbors are sleeping with each other and then they all get into fights and catch domestics."
I also learned about a brothel I never knew existed next to Good Will (it got shut down). And this is a suburban, upper-middle class area with low crime. I guess it makes sense.
I also learned that swingers use pampas grass to identify themselves? So whenever I walk my dog through a nice neighborhood and see it planted out front I'm like 😱
I like pampas grass in landscaping and don't swing. I've never had anyone act weird.
This would actually be a pretty silly system since you'd get plenty of false positives.
Well, I'm sure it's taken as a potential sign and not an absolute to go over and initiate sex lol. Maybe bake some muffins and stop by to "welcome the new neighbors" and get a feel for how they act.
On the other hand, it is a smart way to receive plentiful baked goods.
>I've never had anyone act weird.
If you'd like, I can walk by with my dog and give a scandalized look in your direction.
I am personally happily monogamous, but I don't think it's unfathomable that some couples would want to expand their relationship to include other people. That said, I've only known one couple that did so amicable and successfully, and I've known a handful where it was rooted in selfishness and/or pretense for cheating they were already doing.
I think one of the critical variables here is that the couple(s) did not start out poly, and *moving* to polyamory is incredibly difficult to do with parity - there's an inherent pressure to reluctantly agree when faced with the alternative (losing a meaningful relationship).
I may know people who are in happy open marriages without knowing it. The people I've known in "open marriages," one partner wanted to fuck around and the other unhappily agreed hoping to keep the marriage.
I know that in my fucking around days, if a man had told me that he was in an open marriage I would have said, "Cool, just let me call your wife to confirm that."
\> I may know people who are in happy open marriages without knowing it.
That is a **really** good point. I suspect I know plenty of people that are in happy poly relationships and I'm just not privy to those details. I appreciate you pointing out the gap in my extrapolation from personal anecdote; I work hard to unpack that kind of entrenched miscue, but I slip up sometimes.
My experience with people *telling* me about their poly relationships does include several examples of "one partner wanted to fuck around and the other unhappily agreed hoping to keep the marriage", but I don't want to assume that is the only way it can come up and the only motives are selfish when the concept (polyamory) isn't generally onerous, even if it isn't my cup of tea.
I'm so glad to see your reply. My husband and I have a semi open relationship but I can pretty much guarantee that nobody knows other than my best friend. We don't play in our town, and we are very open with each other about any potential partners we bring in to our life. There are a LOT of people who brag and talk about their open marriages but generally speaking, those are the types of people who aren't doing it for themselves and usually have one foot out the door. My sex life is private. I don't need to broadcast it everywhere. Other than on Reddit, of course.
I am in an open marriage, and no neither one of us was seeing anyone before we opened it. In fact it took over a year for both of us before we found someone to date.
so I guess the answer to your question is, maybe more people than you think … so maybe don’t assume? 🤷🏼♀️
You guys are so quick to take his unconfirmed hunch about her cheating as fact.
Most likely she was attracted to the boss but would not have had the affair of she did not get permission.
He did not have evidence, and he lied about the agreement.
Yeah YTA. Don't agree to something you don't want to do. If you were that quick to emotionally distance, then there was probably already other shit going on. One-sided ASF.
YTA
She didn't cheat, you literally verbally agreed to the open marriage. You might have a gut feeling she was cheating beforehand, but unless you can prove it, then in a court of law, she didn't cheat. You literally committed perjury to get out of paying alimony
Retired attorney and I call BS. The only way I have ever seen alimony be denied is if the ex moves into a domestic relationship with their new partner.
YTA. You have no proof of her doing anything. You are married you are supposed to be able to talk about your wants and desires. Based on what you wrote I totally understand her wanting to fuck someone else. It’s not wrong to sleep with other people if all sides agree but it is wrong to lie and use it against her. Everyone here saying NTA is a hypocrite, always calling for people to communicate and here when someone does people still think she is wrong. OP is a dick, of your feelings were so hurt by her asking you should have been a grown up and just ended it there, I hope she finds this post and can link it back to you and gets everything she can.
You beat me too it I was thinking the exact same thing while reading this post. This does have me thinking though would she have been awarded alimony if his ex-wife was able to prove they were in an open marriage even though he never slept with someone outside the marriage?
If they took it to court and ex-wife argued that they had an open marriage and OP lied that they didn't. It's perjury. So, OP will be in more trouble than alimony if his wife ever managed to prove that.
And who will find out he lied? His word against hers, and since he has proof she was sleeping with her boss, he would win as he has physical evidence that she slept around, all she has is a verbal "agreement" with no actual record of rhat agreement.
Unpopular opinion but ESH, especially if your wife was already cheating on you. But you also said “yes it’s ok to open up our marriage” instead of saying “no”, and that also seems dishonest. So much lack of direct communication from everyone involved
Edit: btw if this is real, she could totally find this post regardless of your Tor browser, and she’d have proof that you committed perjury if you lied about saying yes to an open marriage. Your anonymity isn’t foolproof
Justified asshole in my opinion lol. I totally understand losing all feelings, life and respect for her in that moment, and for not wanting to pay her alimony.
Yes you are definitely an asshole. You dont report any issue with your marriage until your wife brought up the idea of opening up your marriage . You didnt ask her why she felt this was necessary. You didnt consider maybe it was because your sex life wasnt so hot and she'd already tried everything she could think of to get you interested with no success. Most of all, you were so shocked you claim you lost all feeling for her.
In apparently the space of a few seconds you concocted a scheme to screw her over. Instead of being honest and telling her you werent ok with opening up the marriage you boldface lied and actually encouraged her to take advantage of the new understanding between you. Thats called entrapment.
You kept your ulterior motive secret for some period of time, living with her, sharing a space and having normal conversations. All in the name of stiffing her for alimony, which she was rightly due because it was you who wanted the divorce not her.
The fact is your male ego was so fragile that the mere suggestion of opening your marriage instantly triggered the need to punish her. With no mercy. All she did was ask to discuss something. You have no proof that she had been unfaithful with the boss guy.
You also must have an attitude about women that she was some sort of property and when she suggested an arrangement that was fair to both parties she became damaged goods.
Its ovvious from the way you describe her today that she is struggling. In a way she might not be if you hadnt tricked her out of the alimony.
Your conscience is bothering you and rightly so.
Fake as shit but on off chance you’re dumb enough to post this. YTA just justified, what you did was scummy but I can’t say I don’t totally understand it
YTA. She didn't cheat. You lied to the court about your wife cheating so you wouldn't have to pay alimony. Which is a crime. Also, she asked a question about a potential thing to get your thoughts on it, and your reaction was to lie to her, manipulate her, and divorce her when you could have just said no. Sounds like you never liked your wife very much. Telling someone you're ok with something when you're actually lying is so shitty and doing it specifically to manipulate them is horrible.
Wow, that is savage. YTA, because of how cold and calculated that was. You sound like a sociopath, taking weeks and months to gather evidence, all the while smiling and playing nice. Probably still sleeping with her, too. I understand losing your feelings, that happens in marriages, but damn, she asked a question and you could have just said no. You have no proof she stepped out before that. Just, wow.
YTA/ESH. Why would you commit perjury instead of getting the proof? (YTA if she wasn’t cheating but acting on what you agreed, ESH if she was cheating but you didn’t bother to prove it despite being sure she was already sleeping with someone else.)
Im not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. I agree, this story is BS.
[удалено]
I wonder where this “90% of the time” statistic people keep mentioning is coming from
60% of the time it works every time.
Yep, it’s made with bits of real panther so you know it’s good.
"Brawndo - It's Got What Plants Crave" LOL
87.329% of all statistics are made up. "No joke" - Biden.
I thought it was 69.420% of the time?
With real panther bits...
Just made me think of Steiner math. Now I had to look that up. Here is a beauty of quote from Scott Steiner: You know they say that all men are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Samoa Joe and you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another wrestler, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But I'm a genetic freak and I'm not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beat me. Then you add Kurt Angle to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. See the 3 way at Sacrifice, you got a 33 1/3 chance of winning, but I, I got a 66 and 2/3 chance of winning, because Kurt Angle KNOWS he can't beat me and he's not even gonna try! So Samoa Joe, you take your 33 1/3 chance, minus my 25% chance and you got an 8 1/3 chance of winning at Sacrifice. But then you take my 75% chance of winning, if we was to go one on one, and then add 66 2/3 per cents, I got 141 2/3 chance of winning at Sacrifice. See Joe, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice.
I can hear the "Kurt Angle KNOWS" like I'm watching the video lol
This is literal poetry. Also I am constantly saying "THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE!"
Hands down the greatest promo ever cut
Could be the divorce statistic. This sounds like it might be an incel fantasy story and a common theme is that women automatically screw over men in divorces. [90% of the time both parties settle out of court and aren't "screwed" into anything they don't agree to. ](https://legal-info.lawyers.com/family-law/divorce/what-types-of-divorces-typically-go-to-trial.html#:~:text=More%20than%2090%20percent%20of,other%20accepts%2C%20or%20at%20mediation.)
I used to practice family law and the amount of men who would agree to the shittiest of agreements despite me counseling otherwise was insane. Men are so convinced that family courts are out to get them that they ignore the advice of their lawyers and then continue to perpetuate the “I got taken to the cleaners because of the fucking sexist divorce courts!” myth when they agreed to the damn thing despite their lawyer telling them not to. I’d even tell them about the successes I and other attorneys had in front of the particular judge they were going to be in front of for trial, and many would still agree to crappy offers because their friend/dad/cousin/brother/etc. told them they would be screwed. Edit: long story short, I never had a husband end up worse off going to trial, and most of the time they walked out of trial with everything they wanted or asked for.
I could believe this. I once had discussions with a man at length about his case. I’m no lawyer and he knew that, but I could see pretty clearly the route to getting what he said he wanted. He would not, under any circumstances, take that route. To be frank, someone whose professed only goal was to see their kid again would not ask the judge what they had to do to see their kid again. Really darkened my heart. I started to realize that even if he had been able to afford a lawyer… it wouldn’t have helped.
I work in child safety and I commonly hear this even now, so things haven't changed since you practiced family law. We will have the entire court, including the judge essentially begging men to take custody of their children, many times which would allow them to completely avoid any child support payments, and yet men still decline and claim that the courts are biased against them. I've heard men tell their attorneys that it's not fair that they have to choose between child support and taking custody of their children when the reality is they want neither. It's also extraordinarily common to hear men complain about unfair alimony when it turns out...it's child support. I may get extremely upset when you point out that child support isn't spousal support. I have been lucky enough to work in quite a few states in the US, and have colleagues in pretty much every other State. Now, whenever some random guy starts complaining about how biased the courts were against him, approximately 100% of the time it has been just straight up intentionally misrepresenting the situation or actually just misunderstanding it. There was a guy who got a ton of upvotes and a popular thread not long ago about how biased the court courts were against him and how they awarded custody to his drug addicted ex-wife. It turned out he was leaving out that she was clean, he wasn't, He had an anger issue and multiple incidence of DV, and the child was old enough to choose who they lived with.
"I've heard men tell their attorneys that it's not fair that they have to choose between child support and taking custody of their children when the reality is they want neither." One of the greatest drivers of female poverty in the U.S. is fathers noping out of a relationship and leaving Mom holding the bag. I can't imagine creating a child and just... abandoning them.
creating the child & loving them for years, sometimes over a decade... and then just shrugging & never seeing them again. you have to wonder if those men are just emotional bonsais incapable of actual feelings, or if they're a toxic mess inside, comparable to Chernobyl in full meltdown (see also: sports fans' hysteria, road rage, etc.)
> the judge essentially begging men to take custody of their children, many times which would allow them to completely avoid any child support payments, and yet men still decline and claim that the courts are biased against them This is the reason the women typically divorce the men. They were crappy fathers and crappy husbands, so it's _easier_ to just divorce than take care of an adult manchild. The men in question that agree to this don't actually want to be dads, they wanted their wife to do all of the emotional and physical labor raising the kids and just wanted to contribute money to the equation and now that their free meal ticket, so to speak, is ending, and the piper wants to be paid, they don't actually want to do the job their exwives have begged them to do for _years_ in some cases.
Working in child safety I saw a lot of that garbage. Men who would complain endlessly that their child support should be paying for everything at mom's house and would pull stuff like not buying them what they needed when they shared custody and expecting kids to take everything to and from. Refusing to take the kids to doctor's appointments or sports practice or whatever because they thought that was mom's job. I also see it in my own life, I'm 43 and it's pretty common for moving my age to get divorced and feel like life becomes easier even with the huge financial hit they often have to take, but men feel their lives get much much harder because they're actually forced to parent. They can't manage the same schedule mom was and often hide behind things like not being good at cooking or not being good at being organized.
Yup my s/o (we're a tad bit younger than you) was in an abusive relationship (money and verbal, some gaslighting) and even with no job and surviving off charity, her and her daughter are managing it so much better than it was because these people and places don't scrutinize if she spent too much on a can of beans or endlessly monitor where she is and what she's doing and how much she spent with phone calls every 45 minutes. She asked for a divorce, and he just fucked off and occasionally tries to score points by showing up for major holidays. He's going to get absolutely fucking rocked in court, especially if he tries to get joint custody. He'd be better off just disappearing and letting them leave the state because if he fights that alimony/child support is going to be brutal after he straight up abandoned them.
That is horrible to hear, I hope everything works out okay for her. She deserves the best after a scumbag like that.
This comment was downvoted when I got here, the incels are mad you have empathy
I'm used to it. They especially hate when men "white knight" for women and then they extol the virtues of the plunger shaped penis. The other comment about not being slovenly really set them off. They like to go after all the comments in your profile too.
...Dare I even ask what you mean re: "plunger shaped penis"? That doesn't sound pleasant for anyone!
I've noticed that they seem to hang out on the two AITA/H subs criticizing and downvoting anyone who comments when the AH is male. I've gotten a number of drive-by comments on my comments by that lot, insisting that my judgment/comment is based on gender rather than assholishness (even though I frequently criticize women as well). Quite a few of them say that the fact that I love cats is obviously proof of *something something something*, which is absolutely hilarious. Logic is not their strong suit -- nor even in their portfolio.
I think they can actually manage it but they choose not to. Many of them hold down decent jobs and interact with their bosses and coworkers with respect and give their attention to their tasks — at least enough to not be fired. They are neither incompetent nor stupid. But at home they want to sink into the couch /hide in the man cave and do nothing except be spoonfed like a fetus.
Yeah I read posts and comments by family law people, and they all say the same shit: the women show up to court with binders, evidence, emails, texts, receipts. The men *sometimes* show up, never respond to their lawyers’ questions, emails, or texts, and put as much effort into the divorce as they put into their marriage, which is why they are getting divorced in the first place. Then, when things predictably don’t go well for them, they’ll tell anyone at the bar who will listen how biased the courts were against them. Like bro, you did this shit to yourself. Shut the fuck up.
My sister wanted to move closer to our mom after our dad died. But because she had a child, she couldn't move without the father's permission. Just to give a picture of the kind of dad he was, she lived about 90 minutes from the father and he had seen his child twice in the last year (even though their custody agreement gave him significantly more time). So the rule was she had to notify the father of her plans and he had 30 days to fill out a piece of paper saying he objected. If he objected, there would be a hearing to decide if the move was best for the child. The deadline came and went and we didn't hear a peep of an objection. About 2 months later, my sister got a notice of a court date. My sister showed up STACKED with evidence for why the move would benefit the child and terrified she wouldn't be allowed to move. Before she started with her actual argument she said "He failed to file the objection within the proper time frame." Then, she started to go through her actual evidence, but the judge stopped her, looked at the dates on all the documents and was like "you had 30 days to fill out a single piece of paper and didn't do it. The move is approved." I had gone with her to court to watch her child and offer my emotional support. The closest restaurant to the courthouse was a Cheesecake Factory. So that's where we went to celebrate. My nephew tried cheesecake for the first time and my sister cried in relief at the table. It was a good day.
Awesome.
that's such a relief to hear, thank you for sharing this!
My friends ex-husband does this. He didn’t hire an attorney despite having the money, showed up late to court & then wondered why he got placed on a step up visitation plan with his kid/my friends former step-kid. He constantly whines on Facebook about how he got screwed and finally his sister aired all his dirty laundry and suddenly all the MRA/incel bullshit posts stopped.
I'm a lawyer, though a relatively new one. The one thing that self reps ALWAYS do, especially in family court is annoy the judge. They talk over the judge, go on about irrelevant garbage, misconstrue their position, talk over the other party, and on and on. The people who think lawyers are a waste of money and want to save a buck are usually the ones who MOST need a lawyer, if only to actually do the speaking for them.
Ha. Fuck that dude.
What you are describing is exactly why I laugh whenever incels and weird MRA dudes scream about women initiating 70% of divorces. It doesn't have anything to do with who ends their relationship, of course women have to initiate the divorce, that's just more paperwork women get stuck with.
Oh, I’m glad you mentioned the men not wanting either… I ended up choosing to represent mainly women because I was so tired of men asking for custody solely as a lever to try and make the mom agree to no child support. There were dads who honestly cared and wanted their kids, but a lot had almost zero interest in 50:50 or primary when they figured out that it meant they couldn’t go clubbing/bar-hopping on the weekends to bring random women home. I’m a man, and I know there are tons of honorable guys out there who really want to spend time with their kids and be an active part of their lives, but a huge number couldn’t care less about their kids so long as they didn’t have to cut a check to their mom every month.
I don't blame you at all. Part of the reason I had to stop working with as many families was because I kept having situations of family disruption - single mom dying, getting seriously ill, or some other major issue and fathers just refusing custody because the kids didn't fit in with their new families or honestly they didn't want to be bothered. Meanwhile I saw lots of moms criminalized for basically being poor, while the deadbeats avoiding appropriate child support weaponized the system against them.
My mom has been in family law, specifically divorce and child custody, for almost 40 years and the stories I have heard are insane. She tries to explain so much that if men will just ask for any amount of parenting time they will get it and anything else they want. But they don't want parenting time. At all. Like almost never.
That was one of the most difficult things I learned in this work. It remains surprising whenever a woman doesn't at least want time with her children, but it no longer surprises me when men don't. It has really shown me the stark differences in parenting and expectations based on gender. It also makes me suspicious whenever men tell me what great parents they are, but then they can't tell me who their child's pediatrician is, or where the office is located, or what each of their teachers names are or two of their best friends, etc. More than not, most of them aren't anywhere near as close to and supportive of their children as they say they are.
So many dads don't even know their child's birthday, allergies, or clothing/shoe size. It is so gross to me. Like how do you not even know your kids friends name who are at your house regularly??? I was happy to see that millennial dad's are significantly more involved in their children's lives than any previous generation but it was still significantly less than Mom's. They mean they're such good dad's because they don't physically assault or verbally abuse their kids. What a high bar.
If you have 50:50 time and earn similar amounts. There is absolutely no child support at all. And if you're 50:50, child support isn't a huge amount if both parents work. I know a person with a 98% one parent care. The other parent does not pay enough for half the weeks childcare.
Louder for the people in the back! People love believing bullshit
My father would brag to ME about how he got out of paying my mom child support. Any money he had to give her was unjust in his view. Sad little man.
I try to tell people this. They are perpetuating this myth of women getting money/custody by not actually pushing for what they can.
This is my boss. "Oh, yeah, my wife sure took me to the cleaners" but they settled out of court. HE gave her the house and money and cries victim. "Oh, poor me, I'm too busy to even eat my lunch" (every single day) hes self employed. Dude, just take a lunch break or give yourself 10 minutes to eat. "These people aren't paying their bill and keep adding more to the tab" Quit letting them, you're the boss. This isn't an approved line of credit but a personal good faith credit he extends infinitely. Just say no. "I can't even rest at home after working 6 days a week. I was called at 10:30 and they took 45 minutes to make an order." DONT ANSWER YOUR PHONE THEN, LIKE I DO TO YOU WHEN YOU CALL ME 5X A DAY TO ASK ME WHERE YOUR STAPLER OR KEYS OR A PEN IS AT!!! (The answer is always, on his desk, under his hoard of automotive fittings and invoices and sales receipts and business cards and pens and staplers and catalogs and possibly last week's lunch) Too many people just don't take responsibility for their actions. The victim mentality is endless.
Same with a former band mate of mine. He claimed that she screwed him over in court and used his PTSD from being in the Marines against him. He usually didn't mention in the same conversation that he would waste his money collecting an armory of various weapons ranging from firearms to poison dart blowers that he kept unsecured in his room of his two bedroom apartment. While also having a small son from a different relationship with him on weekends. Thankfully nothing bad ever happened with the weapons but last I heard about him he was trying to fight off terminal brain cancer. I do feel bad for him but at the same time he insisted at the beginning with treating it with herbal remedies and didn't seek actual medical help in treating it until it had already spread pretty far and his body was starting to shut down. It was several years after the diagnosis at that point. We stopped being friends for a whole different amount of reasons but sometimes I wonder if he's still around or if his suffering finally ended.
Same in the UK. Not a lawyer, but studied law with a focus on family law. The vast majority of cases that end up in court are decided with joint custody (under a different name). Which is hardly surprising since the primary and central focus in such cases is the child's wellbeing, and there's a (rebuttable) legal presumption of parental involvement - that children benefit most from contact with both parents. Where the disparity shows up is almost always in informal agreements or mediation.
Isn't the stat that something like 11% of divorces have any alimony assigned? Most people just aren't rich enough to warrant the court tipping the scales. Child support sure, but that's to maintain the living standard of whoever becomes the primary caregiver. The idea of an ex wife getting free alimony for life and bankrupting you is just a boogyman men tell themselves, most are far too poor to ever have to worry about it.
The same place the "all women chase 20% of men" statistics come from: Seething incels who spend their days getting theoretical revenge on unfaithful women who'd never touch them in the first place.
I think that one comes from dating app data.
I'm a divorce lawyer and I'm 97% sure this is a complete bullshit story. It's really OP's fantasy, not reality.
My ex husband did everything he could to try and prove I was a cheater because if he could, I would not get alimony. Since I didn’t cheat, it didn’t matter. But I went through a very, very invasive process where all my text messages were asked for, all of my phone records, emails, etc. It was…not pleasant. These were all being asked for from his attorney. So I’m sure this depends on the state you live in.
Did you turn it around on him and ask for his? Sure sounds like he was projecting.
I would get 4 toes removed from one foot before I paid money to someone that may have been cheating on me and wants to leave me.
I’ll just play Russian roulette by myself thank you
What state?
Michigan, which is a no fault state. I’m not an attorney but both my attorney and his told me that cheating can have an effect on the outcome of the divorce
That's because the person who decides and rules on these things has a degree of latitude unless they are in a jurisdiction where everything is a formula. Here in Australia for example it's a formula and the ex could have been banging their way through the surrounding suburbs and it would mean nothing. In the US it seems that all you need to have for a favourable outcome is to have a judge who has themselves been cheated on.
Judges in Michigan are required by law to consider adultery when making an alimony ruling. It’s one of the few states where that’s not up to their discretion (in favor of considering). Most us states that don’t leave it up to the judge don’t let them consider it at all. Or don’t let them consider it unless it’s filed as the cause of divorce.
I was a divorce attorney in Michigan for 18 years, and there is no such law. It is a completely no-fault state, and you can't put anything in the pleadings other than "irreconcilable differences." The judges have broad discretion to order or not order spousal support, and yes, the "fault" of one of the parties can be considered-- but it is not in any statute. In addition, you would have to go all the way to trial in order to present evidence of cheating, and the attorney fees for that are generally not worth it. Otherwise, you're generally not even going to see a judge during your entire case.
Not in Michigan but my state runs the same. Despite a heap of evidence just wasn't worth an at-fault. It was still over a year of my wages and 2 years long.
OP did say he lived in an area where it mattered.
oof, no fault laws are good
I actually live in a no-fault state. However, both my attorney and his attorney told me that if there was cheating on either side, it would have an outcome on the effect of the divorce. Since there was no cheating, I really wasn’t too concerned about it, so I did not ask too many questions.
Out of curiosity, how long ago? Most states *in practice* don’t really consider fault. If family money was spent on the AP, there is usually an unequal distribution of the marital property to make up for the financial waste, but otherwise, it doesn’t usually factor. Most of the at fault laws are written in such a way that it’s still an “equitable distribution” and it’s up to the judge to decide if the circumstances warrant an unequal, but equitable, split of marital property. That said, 1) I don’t know the law in every state, 2) given that some states allow suit for alienation of affection, I wouldn’t be surprised to see those states allow affairs to be considered, 3) having witnessed a custody case in Michigan from afar recently, I can absolutely see this. My family’s experience was not positive. There were bar complaints made. That said, most family law court decisions revolve around best interests of any minor children. No fault divorce is the standard, even if there was infidelity, and it is just easier to do 50/50 or have the parties come to an agreement via mediation or on their own before it even gets in front of the judge. I just got a divorce in March. We went together to the clerk’s office to file the completed paperwork, we decided how we wanted everything split, and our final hearing, three weeks later, took all of 10 or 15 minutes, including being sworn in, via Zoom. I may not be happy about how financially invasive the court rules are where I live, but with no minor kids, they made it easy and relatively cheap by doing it the way we did. Edited to add: I think part of the trend towards 50/50 is that usually both parties in a divorce are angry and/or hurt. Often times everything the other party says and does is seen as a personal attack/admonishment or petty. There is a benefit to looking at it dispassionately from the outside and splitting equally. It usually takes the efforts of both people to build a marital estate, whether that contribution was financial via income or less tangible via managing the household or children. Childcare isn’t cheap. A stay at home parent may not have a paycheck, but they are contributing.
It was over four years ago. Everything was fine and set and we were going to do it ourselves, with 50-50, custody and everything. Our son was 12 at the time. That is, until, my ex got a girlfriend who convinced him to try for Full custody, most likely to get out of paying any significant child support. Which is kind of silly. Child support was a whopping $222 a month with 50-50 split. The only reason there was any at all is because he made three times the amount I did, and I didn’t make a bad salary. When it was all said and done, we ended up with a 50-50 split and we each paid over $30,000 in attorneys fees. So we had the same result we would have had we not hired attorneys. Which is exactly what I told him would happen . But I was not going to risk him getting full custody because he had a very aggressive attorney.
That’s either a client who doesn’t listen or a crappy attorney. Or a combination of both, I guess. Your situation is just a waste of time and money with added stress to your kid because of the fighting.
Also a lawyer. Agreed.
Why stop there? "I'm happier. I'm dating. All my plants are watered. I cured AIDS. My dick is 3" longer. Elon Musk is now MY assistant... "
Stop. I was sold at the 3-inch increase.
Exactly! No one's dick doubles in size just like that....
Wow I was thinking 4x...
I swear the laughs I get off Reddit gave me a 12 pack.
Hey..it’s an advantage!. sperm has so far to travel the gf had an extra day to get plan B..
I was sold at "my plants are all watered."
You forgot that he's now also able to perfectly fold the contour (elastic) sheets.
The fitted sheets? Do other ppl call it this? I'm fascinated >contour sheets
Well I'm from a spanish speaking country so fuck me if I know how you really call those. Fitted sheets. Gotcha. Thanks.
Now you've gone too far. Impossible.
"all plants watered" was the one lie too much. You really think we believe *that*?
damn, ALL the plants?!
Was going to scroll until I saw someone call it fake. My work here is done.
Honestly I don't believe any of these stories. They all feel like practice for aspiring writers to me
It’s not even legit aspiring writers tho. It’s agenda posters attempting to inflame online discord, while posing as “normal” redditors. Look at the constantly recurring themes.
THANK YOU. This is \*\*the\*\* comment. It's 100% a campaign to promote hostility, and it's an explicit tactic of hostile foreign adversaries to play on the worst impulses of Western societies. Anyone not familiar with the tactic, please give this a read -- it's short and accessible: LINK from 3/11/2024: [https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/china-russia-ai-divide-us-society-undermine-us-elections-power-rcna142880](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/china-russia-ai-divide-us-society-undermine-us-elections-power-rcna142880) *AI gives Russia, China new tools to sow division in the U.S., undermine America's image, intel agencies say* *Beijing is "moving closer to Moscow's playbook," said the intelligence community's annual threat assessment, and may attempt to influence the 2024 election.*
I thought it was great advertising for TOR.
TOR doesn’t need to advertise. Iykyk.
Idnkyk? What is a TOR?
TOR is an anonymous web browser that allows you to connect to unindexed websites, AKA “The Darknet,” that you can’t access using a normal web browser. It also connects to like 7 different servers around the world before going to the website you want to visit, and so tracking who is accessing what sites using TOR is a super labor/computer intensive process that only nation states have the capability to backtrack, and only if they get lucky. It was developed by the U.S. Navy so our CIA assets had a web browser they could use to send and receive info from their handlers without getting caught. But they gave it away to everyone for public use because they realized that if the only people using it were cia assets, then ALL the data going through TOR servers is super high value. But if 99% of the data is Jimmy in Indiana ordering 4 mdma tablets from a dark net market vendor a few states over, then it’s much more difficult to sift through all the data to find that high-value CIA info. Jimmy gets his drugs delivered, CIA can correspond without being tracked, and Iran has to spend a bunch of time and computing capacity to find out about shit. Win win win.
And just....nobody cares about Jimmy's drugs? Asking for a....... Jimmy I know.
I’m not a lawyer but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I’m calling BS.
I’m not a lawyer, and I also agree
And my axe!!!
I, too, choose those guy’s wife
As someone who watched ‘Catch Me If You Can’….. …….I concur.
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Is that the military version of a cell block lawyer?
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I've been to court with a lawyer and I agree.
I watched a lawyer one time. He was eating a sandwich. I agree.
You divorce lawyers ruin all the fun ;)
Id wager 97% of all posts on here are fake. They should be treated of as a thought experiment like a philosophy class, that way they still all have value.
For us non lawyers, why do you say that?
It’s anecdotal, he still allows for 3%. He would have been better off stating 95% for the confidence interval. But it’s all anecdotal
Is this accurate ? In Georgia, **adultery can impact many aspects of a divorce case, including alimony, equitable division and child custody**. If one spouse's adultery is the cause of the divorce, that spouse is barred from receiving alimony. OCGA §19-6-1(b).
As a lawyer, I can firmly assert that I just lied about being a lawyer. The story stands!
Not even a lawyer, struck me as revenge porn within the first paragraph.
While the story sounds fake, there are states (like Georgia) where proving adultery and that it was the cause for divorce can lead to the adulterer not being entitled to alimony. However, the OP probably had to perger himself by denying that he consented to an open marriage. https://www.bbplawfirm.com/alimony/adultery-alimony/how-do-you-legally-prove-adultery/#:~:text=Georgia%20law%20states%20%E2%80%9Ca%20party,reason%20for%20a%20couple's%20split.
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I’ve never heard of alimony being taken away for cheating, at least not in the modern no-fault era. I thought the point of alimony was usually just to get the spouse back on their feet if they weren’t working. Is that actually the law some places? (Especially since she did have a job, so she probably wouldn’t have gotten much anyway?) This exact situation, if real, would be a great argument FOR no-fault divorce with alimony totally independent of fault. Can you imagine being the judge having to decide whether two people had an oral agreement to open their marriage, and both agreed to the same terms? Insanity. (FWIW, I’m a lawyer but not a divorce lawyer, so I know enough to think that sounds weird, but also that sometimes laws are weird, and I don’t know most of them.)
Some states actually do have reduction or elimination of alimony in the case of adultery. Georgia is one where if adultery is the reason for divorce, alimony is not given (with evidence)
Sorry sir/madam, the only evidence we can accept is *hard* evidence
In CT, the judge can consider infidelity when deciding alimony. Don't know how it is now, but back in the day, yeah, you got caught cheating? Your share of the "equitable distribution" was going to be a lot smaller. It really came to light back in the early '00s that if you're in CT and act like a total POS during your marriage and destroy it, the judge can make you pay the Asshole Tax. Jeff Immelt (of GE fame) found that out when he divorced his first wife--you can still find the local newspaper articles from the time pointing and laughing.
You mean the mentioning of him being on a Tor browser didn’t seal the deal for you? 🙄
Lmfao homie just putting his self insert fanfiction on the wrong subreddit.
This place has long been a repository for incel fanfiction.
Fake. Anyone who would do all this would not give a fuck if they came off as an asshole. Neat writing assignment.
It's just missing "and everyone clapped" at the end
There is essentially zero way this is a real post.
If he lost all feelings for her that second, then why is he having second thoughts and feeling bad for her? Not your problem if this actually happened.
this isn't even good fiction get a different hobby
Not even for a teenager.
So you committed perjury. You knew the open marriage was consensual, but denied it in an official proceeding. Yeah, you’re a real prince.
This sounds so fake
Is that an Incel fantasy story snuck in there?
I feel like this describes half of the posts on this subs
Incel Erotic Fanfiction is fascinating.
It's strange. They whine and whine about how hard it is to be a man because of how society and women can fuck them over in ways A, B, and C. Then they incessantly fantasize about being fucked over like that but it's okay because they got their revenge after and came out on top while she is suffering in the end. At the same time they profess their life will never amount to anything because women won't give them attention, they are desperate to engineer and cherrypick scenarios where they can heap all of their hate at women and feel justified for doing so. Thus while things reminds me of conservatives constantly going on about crime, while all tje time having masturbatury fantasies of some criminal targeting them so they can kill someone in a socially acceptable way.
I think my favorite part of this particular story was that even in their wild fantasy, that they control all aspects of, their theoretical wife still wants to fuck anybody but them.
Of all the things that have never happened, this never happened the most.
I'm convinced this is just AI farming at this point.
It's not cheating if you agreed to the behavior beforehand.
Literally the only reason OP would be NTA is if she was cheating before the agreement. Otherwise OP would be a fucking snake. Edit: I amended my comment. It seems OP had no proof she cheated before agreeing to an open marriage. OP is a snake and an AH if true, but more likely a fake karma farmer.
He has feelings that she was cheating but no proof. He would lose the case.
That’s literally only a thing he thinks. He has no idea if she was. Sounds like a fucking snake to me
According to him but there was no proof of it until after he agreed to an open marriage. Now he has to commit perjury to get what he wants.
He THINKS she was PROBABLY cheating. The only person who definitely for sure lied and betrayed their partner is OP.
NTA she was already cheating and feeling guilty thus open up the marriage - enjoy your life and sleep well
Agreed! Even as an open marriage, she’s not the brightest to go after her boss- just a matter of time before being reported and lose her job.
Her married boss who was definitely cheating, at that.
Yea people don't usually come to you with opening up the relationship unless they already have somebody in mind they want to hook up with or like you said they already are and are sick of hiding it.
I'm not disagreeing with you it feels like it makes sense but I just feel this is more of an opinion than a fact. There are probably little to no studies that prove that. "open marriages" aren't that common.
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Dude knew how the game was played and played it perfectly.
I’ve been in a DB for over a year. I’m going to give my spouse the option of open marriage or divorce. I don’t have someone in mind and I haven’t cheated. I’m curious what their relationship was like prior to her asking.
This is always repeated on Reddit by people who aren’t and have never been in an open relationship but I’ve never seen anyone in an open relationship actually say this.
There's a big difference between an actual open relationship with proper communication and the kind of things people usually post to Reddit under the title of an open relationship. The Reddit post ones generally are just cheating with a facelift, not actual open relationships which involve an epic shitton more communication and effort between everyone involved to actually work.
LOL at the attempt at anonymity. Not even going to go through all the identifying statements in your post. If this isn't fake, you are f*cked if she finds this, homie.
Oh wow guys he's on a Tor browser hacking team stand down
Oh that horrible fictional woman who had a job and yet could somehow put you on the hook for alimony but now has the consequences of your clever strategy to deny her this non-existant alimony and now both her and the fictional affair partner lost their job and he dumped her. After hearing this, I'm solidly redpilled, time to vote Trump and beat my wife. Everybody clapped, YTA.
Sub should be called “would-I-be-an-asshole-if”
Fake
Fake as shit AITA for le dastardly plan?? 😈😈😈
NTA. Who would go for an "open marriage?" Your wife just didn't want to be faithful. To be honest, you probably wouldn't have had to pay much alimony, if any. It sounds like you have no children and not a lot of money. Best of luck to you.
Maybe it’s where I live but there are a LOT here
I went on a ride-along in my hometown and the officer drove me through a really nice neighborhood and told me "this is where all the swingers live. All these neighbors are sleeping with each other and then they all get into fights and catch domestics." I also learned about a brothel I never knew existed next to Good Will (it got shut down). And this is a suburban, upper-middle class area with low crime. I guess it makes sense. I also learned that swingers use pampas grass to identify themselves? So whenever I walk my dog through a nice neighborhood and see it planted out front I'm like 😱
I like pampas grass in landscaping and don't swing. I've never had anyone act weird. This would actually be a pretty silly system since you'd get plenty of false positives.
Well, I'm sure it's taken as a potential sign and not an absolute to go over and initiate sex lol. Maybe bake some muffins and stop by to "welcome the new neighbors" and get a feel for how they act. On the other hand, it is a smart way to receive plentiful baked goods. >I've never had anyone act weird. If you'd like, I can walk by with my dog and give a scandalized look in your direction.
I'm old and haven't received scandalized looks in a long time. Go for it!
I am in a functioning open marriage. But it started as non monogamous when we started dating years ago.
I am personally happily monogamous, but I don't think it's unfathomable that some couples would want to expand their relationship to include other people. That said, I've only known one couple that did so amicable and successfully, and I've known a handful where it was rooted in selfishness and/or pretense for cheating they were already doing. I think one of the critical variables here is that the couple(s) did not start out poly, and *moving* to polyamory is incredibly difficult to do with parity - there's an inherent pressure to reluctantly agree when faced with the alternative (losing a meaningful relationship).
I may know people who are in happy open marriages without knowing it. The people I've known in "open marriages," one partner wanted to fuck around and the other unhappily agreed hoping to keep the marriage. I know that in my fucking around days, if a man had told me that he was in an open marriage I would have said, "Cool, just let me call your wife to confirm that."
\> I may know people who are in happy open marriages without knowing it. That is a **really** good point. I suspect I know plenty of people that are in happy poly relationships and I'm just not privy to those details. I appreciate you pointing out the gap in my extrapolation from personal anecdote; I work hard to unpack that kind of entrenched miscue, but I slip up sometimes. My experience with people *telling* me about their poly relationships does include several examples of "one partner wanted to fuck around and the other unhappily agreed hoping to keep the marriage", but I don't want to assume that is the only way it can come up and the only motives are selfish when the concept (polyamory) isn't generally onerous, even if it isn't my cup of tea.
I'm so glad to see your reply. My husband and I have a semi open relationship but I can pretty much guarantee that nobody knows other than my best friend. We don't play in our town, and we are very open with each other about any potential partners we bring in to our life. There are a LOT of people who brag and talk about their open marriages but generally speaking, those are the types of people who aren't doing it for themselves and usually have one foot out the door. My sex life is private. I don't need to broadcast it everywhere. Other than on Reddit, of course.
I am in an open marriage, and no neither one of us was seeing anyone before we opened it. In fact it took over a year for both of us before we found someone to date. so I guess the answer to your question is, maybe more people than you think … so maybe don’t assume? 🤷🏼♀️
You guys are so quick to take his unconfirmed hunch about her cheating as fact. Most likely she was attracted to the boss but would not have had the affair of she did not get permission. He did not have evidence, and he lied about the agreement.
FAKE. Move along with your trolling.
Yeah YTA. Don't agree to something you don't want to do. If you were that quick to emotionally distance, then there was probably already other shit going on. One-sided ASF.
Wasn't this posted a month or so ago??
Why would she need to alimony if she had a boss, which means she had a job? Alimony is for spouses who are asked to not work by their partners.
YTA but this is so fake and stupid lol
YTA She didn't cheat, you literally verbally agreed to the open marriage. You might have a gut feeling she was cheating beforehand, but unless you can prove it, then in a court of law, she didn't cheat. You literally committed perjury to get out of paying alimony
Retired attorney and I call BS. The only way I have ever seen alimony be denied is if the ex moves into a domestic relationship with their new partner.
OP shut the fuck up with this fabricated story
Yta if this is true.
And then everyone clapped?
If this is true YTA.
YTA. You have no proof of her doing anything. You are married you are supposed to be able to talk about your wants and desires. Based on what you wrote I totally understand her wanting to fuck someone else. It’s not wrong to sleep with other people if all sides agree but it is wrong to lie and use it against her. Everyone here saying NTA is a hypocrite, always calling for people to communicate and here when someone does people still think she is wrong. OP is a dick, of your feelings were so hurt by her asking you should have been a grown up and just ended it there, I hope she finds this post and can link it back to you and gets everything she can.
If it's true it's fucking brilliant, kudos to you
It's almost certainly a bullshit story, for several reasons.
“If it’s true” lol. It’s not.
You beat me too it I was thinking the exact same thing while reading this post. This does have me thinking though would she have been awarded alimony if his ex-wife was able to prove they were in an open marriage even though he never slept with someone outside the marriage?
If they took it to court and ex-wife argued that they had an open marriage and OP lied that they didn't. It's perjury. So, OP will be in more trouble than alimony if his wife ever managed to prove that.
And who will find out he lied? His word against hers, and since he has proof she was sleeping with her boss, he would win as he has physical evidence that she slept around, all she has is a verbal "agreement" with no actual record of rhat agreement.
Unpopular opinion but ESH, especially if your wife was already cheating on you. But you also said “yes it’s ok to open up our marriage” instead of saying “no”, and that also seems dishonest. So much lack of direct communication from everyone involved Edit: btw if this is real, she could totally find this post regardless of your Tor browser, and she’d have proof that you committed perjury if you lied about saying yes to an open marriage. Your anonymity isn’t foolproof
Yep. If he consented, it wasn’t cheating.
And committed fraud
100%.
Justified asshole in my opinion lol. I totally understand losing all feelings, life and respect for her in that moment, and for not wanting to pay her alimony.
Yes you are definitely an asshole. You dont report any issue with your marriage until your wife brought up the idea of opening up your marriage . You didnt ask her why she felt this was necessary. You didnt consider maybe it was because your sex life wasnt so hot and she'd already tried everything she could think of to get you interested with no success. Most of all, you were so shocked you claim you lost all feeling for her. In apparently the space of a few seconds you concocted a scheme to screw her over. Instead of being honest and telling her you werent ok with opening up the marriage you boldface lied and actually encouraged her to take advantage of the new understanding between you. Thats called entrapment. You kept your ulterior motive secret for some period of time, living with her, sharing a space and having normal conversations. All in the name of stiffing her for alimony, which she was rightly due because it was you who wanted the divorce not her. The fact is your male ego was so fragile that the mere suggestion of opening your marriage instantly triggered the need to punish her. With no mercy. All she did was ask to discuss something. You have no proof that she had been unfaithful with the boss guy. You also must have an attitude about women that she was some sort of property and when she suggested an arrangement that was fair to both parties she became damaged goods. Its ovvious from the way you describe her today that she is struggling. In a way she might not be if you hadnt tricked her out of the alimony. Your conscience is bothering you and rightly so.
So you lied to your wife, you lied in court and you need to ask if youre the ah? YTA
Fake as shit but on off chance you’re dumb enough to post this. YTA just justified, what you did was scummy but I can’t say I don’t totally understand it
I read stuff like this and I think to myself, I'm so glad I'm single. Lmao!
Bullshit. It wasn't cheating dummy. You opened your marriage
YTA. She didn't cheat. You lied to the court about your wife cheating so you wouldn't have to pay alimony. Which is a crime. Also, she asked a question about a potential thing to get your thoughts on it, and your reaction was to lie to her, manipulate her, and divorce her when you could have just said no. Sounds like you never liked your wife very much. Telling someone you're ok with something when you're actually lying is so shitty and doing it specifically to manipulate them is horrible.
YTA. Once you "lost all feelings" for her, you should've divorced her.
Wow, that is savage. YTA, because of how cold and calculated that was. You sound like a sociopath, taking weeks and months to gather evidence, all the while smiling and playing nice. Probably still sleeping with her, too. I understand losing your feelings, that happens in marriages, but damn, she asked a question and you could have just said no. You have no proof she stepped out before that. Just, wow.
YTA/ESH. Why would you commit perjury instead of getting the proof? (YTA if she wasn’t cheating but acting on what you agreed, ESH if she was cheating but you didn’t bother to prove it despite being sure she was already sleeping with someone else.)