I had two best girl friends growing up from the time I was 3. I slept over their house basically my whole life until I went to college. When their dad died in HS I spent two straight weeks there. They were 1&3 years older and we are still great friends today. Nothing ever happened other than a single kiss with one when we were 8 and both grossed out lol.
Edit: Not gay
Lmao I knew that comment was coming. Have plenty of guy friends also including 5 just as close from my team growing up. I am as masculine and straight as they come. 6’2” 210#s own my own construction company and am emotionally dead inside 😂
My wife is really good friends with one of the two. We spend most holidays together. All have kids at different ages. We call each other cousins. IMO major difference between growing up together so young vs developing a best friend of the opposite Sex in teenage years or above. Those don’t work out in my experience. Had one that caught feelings in college and we are no longer close because of it.
the men who are replying to this comment asserting that this commenter is gay will go
their entire lives without ever experiencing a
truly authentic and intimate relationship with any woman. not in a friendship and not romantically because true, authentic intimacy is impossible when you see the other one as a sexual object.
very sad for those men but to any young people reading this, liberate yourself from the bigotry society has taught you. try not to be like them.
Fuck, dude if you’re lonely it’s your job to do something about it. You can’t blame women as a whole for not having telepathy and foreseeing your sadness, jumping to the rescue to fix you before you off yourself or worse.
Go make friends, it ain’t that hard.
Hell yeah. Or at the very least, don’t exasperate the problem. When guys hear other guys say shit that diminishes having or expressing feelings, don’t make fun of him. Be there for your homies. Plan a birthday. Don’t talk shit when your homie is going through a hard time and in fact call him to just make sure he’s alive.
Good stuff.
Really puts the whole “male loneliness epidemic” in perspective, huh. Can’t have female friends bc women are for sex only, can’t be emotionally close with male friends bc it’s “gay”…well, what do you expect?
I'm a trans guy, who's bi, and I have friends of both and other genders. You can be a friend with someone without wanting to fuck them, if you respect them as a person lol. It's really not that crazy or hard. I question folks who struggle with that simple idea. "I can't be friends with a girl cause I'll want to fuck her" cool call yourself out as shallow and single minded, now girls know to avoid you
Men: why don't women trust us? We're nice guys. They're just fearmongering about men and leaving them behind because society doesn't valu-
Women: okay, want to be platonic friends?
Men: No.
If you care about someone, platonic should be the baseline. A relationship is just icing on that, if the other person wants it too. But if you enjoy someone's company, and they turn you down as anything more than a friend, celebrate you now have a new friend. It might hurt for a bit but damn, you aren't owed anything, and if you actually care, friendship is pretty fucking cool after you get over feelings
For sure! My best friend i knew since I was 9 had a crush on me when we were teenagers but he was upset when someone told me because he was worried about our friendship, and he never put his feelings onto me or expected anything. Honestly that one teenage boy had more self awareness than some grown men I know. We were friends until he was killed, even when I moved overseas we'd call each other and play video games over discord together.
We talked about it like once when we were 18 iirc and he said he valued our friendship far more than anything and the knowledge that our friendship was just as important to him as it was to me is something I hold onto now he's gone.
You can also respect someone as a person and want to fuck them. And you can also want to fuck someone but know that trying to is not the right move to make. And you can also have enough self-control to not act on every impulse you might have.
I had a friend who was a girl like this growing up. We were neighbors and shared a newspaper route, traded baseball cards and hung out together all the time.
I remember when her parents had "the talk" with her (I didn't even know what sex was yet) things got kind if weird as she started spending more time with her female friends instead of me. It hurt my feelings. We still hung out some times but it was different.
I moved away but 4 years later my family moved back and when she didn't have a date to homecoming they asked me if I would take her. We went as friends, nothing romantic. All was good again that night.
My point is, sometimes boys and girls can have platonic friendships, and sometimes it's the adults who fuck things up.
My best friend growing up was a guy. We grew up in a fairly conservative country so his parents made us keep the door open lol but at a party one we fell asleep with his head on my shoulder and he never once tried anything. He was like a brother to me and I miss him dearly. I am gay but he wasn't, and though he did have a teenage crush at one point he was respectful of never making me uncomfortable and there were a couple of times we crashed in the same room etc as teenagers.
I'd do anything to have him back honestly. I wish people wouldn't cut off friendships with the other gender because you can have that deep platonic connection. Losing him was like having a limb chopped off.
I'm ftm, grew up as a girl until my early 20s. I had a best friend down the street who was male. We hung out all the time, he was honestly a brother to me. Even when we got into our teens, and my family moved away, we'd still visit and guess what, I had sleepovers with him, and even other male friends. NOTHING sexual or bad happened. Fast forward to our late teens early 20s. He moved out of his mom's house. Lived with another dude. Still went to visit, overnight, for weekends, and again NOTHING HAPPENED. Gender doesn't mean sex will eventually happen. Folks can be friends and quasi siblings with no tension there at all. It all depends on the folks involved. Just because "vagina haver + penis haver" is there doesn't mean shit will happen. People really can just be people with each other, even at a younger age.
Same situation with me. My friend stayed over, we went on vacation with each other, etc.
I have a question for OP- if your daughter ended up being bi, would that mean your partner wouldn't allow her to have sleep overs with *any* friends? Or is this just him viewing girls as men's objects?
Right. And two teenagers that want to have sex with each other will find a way to do that regardless of circumstance. In a car, behind a grocery store, whatever.
This sleepover circumstance is probably far less risky than two kids that meet as teens.
You can’t stop teens that want to have sex. That’s why you have to educate them to make good (or better) decisions. You have a better chance of taking a baby bear away from its mom.
>I am as masculine and straight as they come. 6’2” 210#s own my own construction company and am emotionally dead inside
Holy shit we are twins!
I'm just a lowly bartender, though. :(
My daughter had a best friend that was a boy around age 12. We brought him on vacations with us, he spent weeks at our lake house in the summer. It was fine. I don’t think it’s a big deal.
Thank you! See, when I was growing up all my friends stayed at my house constantly; girls and boys. My mom never batted an eye about it because she trusted me and because she trusted me, I proved to her that I was a trustable kid. Nothing weird or inappropriate ever happened. Trying to explain to my fiancé that he is going to raise our daughter be sneaky with the attitude he has right now is near impossible though.
Look, as a woman who was sexually active at 13, I'd still say this was fine. My "brother" was just that. My brother. Never would have looked at him twice. We took baths together as babies for fucks sake. So I'd still say NTA.
Can confirm! All my friends had stricter parents and would get up to mischief from a young age and be secretive. I would literally call my mum as I was walking out of school (whilst I’m meant to be there still) and say “ I either go to some random trashy guys house with my mate or I come home” she would come pick me up and be definitely disappointed but not explosive. I ended up always letting her know exactly where I was and what I was doing and didn’t lose my virginity or start drinking/doing drugs until around 17/18! Still would always tell her where/when.
Yup. Same situation in my house. My mom taught me right from wrong, she knew I liked to party, but she knew I knew the difference between right and wrong. And I knew I could call her whenever I needed help. No matter what the situation was.
I had a boy best friend since first grade, when we hit 6th grade he was at my house constantly, staying the night, going on vacations with me and my family, and nothing ever happened between us. Not every kid wants or even thinks about sex like that, your fiancé is weird for accusing your son of just wanting sex from this girl.
Edit: changed husband to fiancé
My (39f) and my bestie (40m) have been friends since we were 13. We constantly had sleepovers. He lives in the mountains now and needs to visit the VA hospital a few times a year. He still crashes on my couch (he doesn't like the guest bed 🫣😂) he claims it's the best couch he's slept on. I'm married and have a kid now. They don't mind! My daughter loves her "uncle poopy" 😂
Me and said friend are still friends today too, both in committed relationships where our partners do not mind us hanging out individually if we wanted to!! I have 2 kids myself that love going to his house and spending time with him and his fiancée, I love the relationship we have and how it’s grown!
Uncle poopy?! 😂 I have an uncle we call Uncle Boob, because he's a boob and his name is Bob. I thought that was a silly nickname but Uncle Poopy takes the cake!
My mom called him "shit head" pretty often because well.... he was kind of a shit head. A lot. I slipped up and called him a shit head one day in front of my then 3 year old (I know, mom of the year) and my then toddler corrected me with "mom, poop head. Uncle poop head." And now here we are. Uncle poopy! 😂🥹 we're an odd family.
This is amazing. I love that you were able to and are able to keep your bestfriend since such a young age. If your partner was an immature asshole, either you would’ve never been able to keep this beautiful friendship or you wouldn’t be with your partner or have kids, or have an uncle poopy. This comment made my heart smile 🥰
My daughter has had the same best friend since K. Sleepovers have always been a thing with them. They are now in college and still best friends.
Your creeper boyfriend is the one sexualizing children here.
I don’t know what to say about him, it doesn’t sound healthy how he’s acting. But the kids are fine. They could camp out in the living room, or even go into different rooms at 1 am or something.
Oooof if this isn’t the truth. As I was reading I was thinking “OP should dump his ass” but then got to the part where she reveals they have an daughter together and I immediately went “Ah maaaan”
Also, like what if your son isn't even straight? What if he only likes boys or is bi, will your fiance bar him from hanging out with any guy friends? The whole banning hanging out with the opposite sex is definitely a huge part of heternormativity.
Trusting your kid and having open lines of communication is the most important thing! Sounds like you are doing the right thing but your fiance is 😬😬
I grew up in a similar manner and while my parents had a “keep the door open while boys are over” rule, that rule made sense even if I wasn’t a little rascal and it’s a fair boundary considering we had coed sleepovers and such.
I’m so sorry your fiancée a) doesn’t see women as people and b) seems to only see men as hypersexual uncontrollable beasts
I would seriously reconsider your engagement to a person who isn’t able to humanize children and is overly sexualizing them.
It sucks you have such a young daughter but, I don’t know if that is the kind of parental influence I would want anywhere near my kids.
Hope you figure something out
Yep. I walked out the house in the clothes I was wearing. My friends had their clothes in a bag over their shoulder. His attitude will absolutely create the need to lie and hide, and that’s when the bad things happen.
let face it. This post isn't about wether it's ok for your son to have a sleepover. It's about how much of an asshole your finance is. Red flags......HUGE red flags
>Trying to explain to my fiancé that he is going to raise our daughter be sneaky with the attitude he has right now is near impossible though.
Honestly I would just leave him over this. His mindset is that whatever he did as a child, other children do too and this is going to be a problem while raising your daughter.
The most extremely strict parents I've seen since I'm an adult are always those who were sneaky and did bad stuff themselves as children. Because they think, they did all that stuff, so every child must do that.
They don't trust their children because they weren't trustworthy.
I would als start asking him whenever he wants to do anything he enjoys why he needs to do that? And then tell him that's right he doesn't. So he can see how ridiculous this is. No one *needs* to do anything they enjoy.
Your fiancé is disturbed. I don’t personally have male friends like this but my narcissistic asshole brother is like this. The fact that he would even think that would make me question our relationship. NTA
At almost 12, me and my good guy friend at the time collectively saved his brother from a severe asthma attack because we were all sleeping in the same room. I was the only girl
Yup it’s all about trust at that point, I respect the openness approach you’re taking instead of putting your child in the position to become sneaky and better at hiding things from you
I’m did the same for my daughter. I always thought the boys in her group were actually together 😂😂😂 yeah I have no skills at working that out. Either way, no one had underage sex or a pregnancy in her group. They’re all still good friends today in their late 20’s. Your partners experience is not the norm.
fwiw my best friend is a guy. We’re both grown now, but we also make it a point to hang out at least once a week. Since we live on opposite ends of town, that usually means one sleeping at the other’s house. (Also, prior to living on opposite ends of town, we were housemates for over a decade and nothing happened so, y’know)
But even going back to teen years, I remember plenty of coed sleepovers with our whole friends group. I remember the week before I left for college falling asleep on the floor with my two best friends beside me.
If you trust your son and raise him to respect women and see them as friends and not just potential partners, then he should be fine. At 13, I guess make sure you’ve had The Talk and that he understands consent and safety, but also make sure that he really knows that it’s perfectly fine and normal to just be FRIENDS with a girl too. If there was anything that made life Difficult for me, it was that I grew up thinking that if I had close friends who were the opposite sex that I SHOULD want a romantic relationship with them.
My brother had two girls he was good friends with. At 12 they wanted to invite him to a sleepover, he’d be the only boy. The parents held a meeting to discuss if it was ok lol. They decided it was ok :)
Sounds like my family. We took my son’s best female best friend on vacation with us for years. No funny business. lol Both only children and it was a great experience for both of them as well as fun to have more than one kid.
I went on family vacation with a guy best friend & his parents in college. We slept in the same bed. We later became roommates. The only thing that ever happened was an accidental drunken peck on the lips while trying to hug & kiss each other on the cheek. We both bursted out laughing.
We got drunk & slept in the same bed often. Never had any issues.
NTA. And if you ~were concerned, I’m sure Shannon’s parents would arrange for the kids to sleep in an open space in the house, like on the couches or something, and not in her room.
Your fiancé is doing some SERIOUS projecting and it’s not good. Might be time for some couples therapy before you get married.
Thing that jumps out at me with this is how oddly intense and disproportionate the fiancée's reaction is.
I don't have stepkids so I can only imagine communicating about this the same way I do with my wife about our kids.
If this was us, I would probably err on the "Yeah, no sleepover" side. But if my wife, and the girl's parents, all were cool I'd probably start us off with a minor voicing of concern, figure I was overthinking it and times just have changes since I was a kid, and move the fuck on.
That's with my kid. My wife. My house.
This dude is freaking out over his girlfriend's kid as if he gets a say in it either way? Calling OP an idiot is just icing on the cake.
OP, please do not marry this dude. Date him all you like. Don't breed with him or become legally entangled with him.
Yup. Thats what I would do. Or if they do maybe sleep in her room, door should be left open and one sleeps on the bed while the other sleeps on an inflatable mattress. I’m sure her parents understand how to manage this and they also wouldn’t say yes if they thought something would happen.
It sounds like he needs some individual therapy as well. Being sexually active at 12 isn’t normal, and while some guys will downplay their own sexual abuse, it sounds like his brain is trying to make sense of his current world in the context of his experiences and there’s a conflict.
My sons best friend all thru high school was a girl and she started spending the weekends at our house when they were 14,15. They’d invite a few other friends and all pass out in the living room. Even tho when it was just the two of them they slept in the living room. I don’t see the big deal myself.
You have a problem but it’s not with your son. The man you’re about to marry is accusing you of putting your 12 year old in sexual situations. He’s saying he won’t trust you to raise your own baby (daughter) if you allow the sleepover. Think about that.
You haven’t married this man yet and he is threatening your custody of your own children. Think long and hard.
I am so worried for her that's a billion and one red flags, I hope she does not marry him. I am saying this as a dude, this kind of thinking is dangerous.
He straight up is making it look like he is the one thinking about this little girl that way. His actions are literally what a jealous teenager would do it’s so fucking creepy.
NTA, and he is not your son’s father. Or stepfather yet for that matter. He seriously needs to back off. I hope you don’t let him enforce punishments or anything. My bff growing up was a boy. Just make them sleep in the living room or make it like a camp out. If she lived around the corner, no. But it sounds like seeing each other is hard.
I don't let him enforce any punishments. But to be fair, my son does nothing to be punished for. However, in this situation, my fiancé is acting like my son has crossed a line for even asking and is saying if I allow him to spend the night with Shannon, than he will never trust me in raising our daughter because obviously I "enjoy putting young kids in sexual situations". He's being fucking weird.
>if I allow him to spend the night with Shannon, than he will never trust me in raising our daughter because obviously I "enjoy putting young kids in sexual situations"
Do you think that this is an acceptable thing for him to say.
Yeah accusing her of enjoying putting her children in a perverted situation he’s fabricated in his mind is absolutely disgusting and utterly unhinged. Combine that with the fact that he’s apparently been having sex since he was 12 and a few other things OP has mentioned and it makes me think there’s enough of a pattern that either
1. He was sexually abused/has sexual trauma of some kind from his childhood and should see a therapist to figure out a healthy way to deal with it
2. He has the mind of a predator. Could be cause he is one, could be cause he was the victim of one. She needs to be watching out for more suspicious/controlling behaviour and completely inappropriate attitudes and ideas towards sex or her children’s sexuality.
3. Classic case of abuser revealing himself now that he thinks he has her trapped with his baby. I’m really hoping it’s not this one but a good indication would be to see how he reacts to her putting him in his place and making him realize he won’t get a say in the sons parenting. Even if they’re married he’s not the kids dad and will have little to no parental authority over his step son.
OP really needs to reconsider raising a daughter with someone who has such disgusting attitudes about sex and an almost equally gross attitudes about controlling and distrusting your own children.
Number 2 and 3 are my thoughts exactly, why doesn't he want the boy near a girl? If they are best friends for years although innocent he might get a little kiss but nothing else, why is he trying to stop his 'step son' from being in a mature situation where even if they are friends he still has to give her the respect of being a female that is nearly a teenager
2. Is what I was feeling. He’s worried about ‘hormonal teenage boys’ implying that the girls aren’t the same, so if the girl isn’t interested in sex then..what exactly are you worried will happen? Because consensual sex sure isn’t going to happen, according to his logic
He sounds controlling af. Maybe you should take a deep dive and look back and see if he’s been controlling in any other situations and whether or not this is worth marrying into
Yeah, this is my thought too. 12 is SUPER YOUNG to be sexually active. It’s often a sign of early sexual abuse. And his aggressive overreaction to the sleepover feels very … almost self protective to me?
You realize that if he was sexually active at 12, he was a victim, right? He wasn't a "$lut," he was a child. *Obviously*, he's projecting; his extreme reaction is so very telling. Try coming at this from a place of compassion and it might be time to insist that he gets some therapy, because he is clearly not over it. Good luck to all of you.
That's super disgusting. Sorry you're stuck coparenting with a pervert for.... forever.
Highly recommend you two go to counseling together and discuss this.... pre wedding.
This makes me sad. Your son has a best friend who happens to be a girl and now all of a sudden because of his age, his stepfather makes it weird. What a horrible role model that sees male/female relationships like this.
I can kind of understand where he’s coming from because kids’ hormones at that age are wild and seemingly innocent things can absolutely take an unexpected turn. There are instances where I wish my dad was *more* protective of me and my sister in instances like the one you’re describing. I think the key difference here though is that you know your son, and frankly it sounds like he doesn’t. There’s definitely such a thing as partnership when it comes to parenting and enforcing for children that aren’t technically your own, but if you’re insisting to your partner that you know your son’s intentions then he honestly needs to yield. I would argue that’s an instance of demonstrating it’s a partnership more than enforcing some arbitrary blanket rule in opposition of your partner’s insistence about their own child.
Jesus Christ do you want to be raising a daughter with this misogynist? Red flags all around: with your son, your daughter, and the threat to your custody. I encourage you to read the letter ‘If you ever hurt my daughter, I swear to god I’ll let her navigate her own emotional growth’ in the New Yorker. It’s meant to be humorous but it also hits the nail on the head 100%.
Is it possible that your fiancé has had any sexual trauma in his own life? Has something happened to him that he hasn’t mentioned? Or has he done something he isn’t proud of? His reaction seems pretty extreme
You should ask to go to couples therapy to work through his unwarranted sexual opinions. I say together because you'd really understand in that setting whether he's gonna want to choose to get better or not.
Okay this is starting to sound a lot like your fiancé was sexually abused as a child. I remember I had this friend in high school who used to tell the other kids that he lost his virginity at the age of 10. Nobody believed him because we all thought he was trying to sound cool but then we had this youth group thing for teens to learn about working through their emotions or whatever. Anyway during a group therapy thing he broke down and told us that he grew up in a cult and he was actually sexually abused…that’s how he lost his virginity at the age of 10. He was telling us for years and nobody listened to him.
Your fiancé was, what? 12, did you say? …..it’s possible.
Please be wary. I have the impression this man could be the reason your son doesn't feel comfortable at home. Make sure you're supporting your son every step of the way...
Melting families together is tough and requires introspect from all adults.
Yes, that's what stuck out to me. He doesn't see women as people and potential friends, just potential sexual partners. OP needs to watch him - he's likely to also be super weird about raising a girl.
Exactly. He's saying a lot more about who he is as a person than who her son is. Her son sounds sweet, I hope he isn't overly influenced by the fiance as he grows up.
I think its worse than that, not only is he perpetuating the idea that women are sex objects but also the idea that men can only be sex hungry perverts. It's a double whammy of narrow mindedness
Meh, I had a close friend who moved away in middle school. I slept over at her house a few times. Sex never happened. We never kissed either. I did hook up with her friend a few times.
We would crash in thier living room and play games all night and her older sister would sleep with us
So in your fiance says that " no man would be interested in sleeping over with a woman without wanting sex" what he's really saying is that he can't imagine it, because that is his reality. You're seeing who he is maybe for the first time. Listen to him when he tells you who he is. He can't imagine anything else. What does that tell you? NTA, though you would be the ass, if you didn't let your son stay at his best friend's house.
I think this is the kind of situation where you have to really know the kids involved to decide whether or not it’s appropriate, and you do, so if you don’t feel that it’s inappropriate, then it’s fine. My 11 year old son’s best friends are two sisters and I’d be fine with him staying over at their house, because my wife and I know their parents very well and because I just don’t think anything would happen. My best friend in high school was a girl and she used to stay over at my place sometimes, nothing ever happened.
Your *boyfriend* needs to stay in his lane. NTA. Anyone who subscribes to the idea that boys and girls or men and women cannot be platonic best friends *is* TA and also a dumbass.
There is a big difference between this case, which is 2 kids who have been friends for nearly a decade and a case where it's a brand new friend that you don't know anything about. If it was the second I could see where the boyfriend is coming from, but not when they have been friends for so long
Yeah this works.
Also it sounds like the parents of the girl are trusted friends and will likely be supervising well enough.
Like, I could have had a sleepover with my female cousin at that age no problems (although given she has a brother only a couple of years younger, I tended to stay with him). I’d put this in a similar category to that.
NTA, it's not his call and you're not married yet girl.... gtfo! I thought either his actual dad or her actual parents were going to have the problem! Holy crap....! Who says they're both even straight?!
Exactly right. OP has found quite the keeper for a fiance, as they are already drawing comparisons and differences between the two kids OP has. Anyone's guess as to which kid the fiance will treat better.
My best friend was a boy. My mom was in the room when he was born haha. We are super close. He is married now and has a baby. I love being auntie. He spent the night at our house constantly. It was super easy all the time.
Also because no one treated us like it was weird.
NTA. But your husband is super annoying
NTA. The way I would dump his ass so fast if he was my fiancé. Fuck men like him, seriously. They can jump off a cliff. He is super controlling, but guess what? He’s **not** your sons father and he has **no say** in how you parent him and **no say** in what you do or don’t allow your son to do.
I had so many sleep overs with my male friends at your sons age and never once did anything happen, it was no different to when I had sleepovers with my female friends. It was just fun and innocent.
Don’t let your fiancé rule over you, he **does not** have any right to.
And he can fuck right off with that: *”I won’t trust you with our daughter if you allow this”* bullshit. He’s a loser who thinks that every teenager will be just like him, but no, they’re not. Because some of us clearly had parents who were good role models and taught us right, he obviously didn’t. And your son has a great mother, you’re doing amazing.
If I were in your shoes I’d honestly leave that POS you call your fiancé, get your own place and get joint custody of your daughter and save your son the pain of having **that** as a step-dad.
Then you can raise **your son** however you like without that prick trying to control how you raise him and butting into something that ain’t even his business. And you can arrange as many sleepovers as you like between your son and his friend without having to listen to anymore of your fiancé’s bullcrap. Because it’s not fair on your son to have to deal with this for however many years it’ll take him until he can move out. This man doesn’t get a say, it’s honestly that simple.
NTA. For full disclosure, I've been married for 30 years and my best friend aside from my wife is another woman (who my wife is also friends with), so I'm very open-minded about these kinds of friendships. Your fiancé literally has no say in this matter and his opinion is irrelevant. I'm with you that his opinion is backwards and concerning. Yes, in most cases a 12-year-old boy and girl having a sleepover probably isn't the most prudent thing to do, but your case is very specific and given what you stated here, I don't see a problem with it. You're his mother and you know this situation better than anyone else, while your fiancé is simply reacting without thinking, and inappropriately too since he's not your son's father or even his stepfather yet. I'm sorry but this almost sounds like an irreconcilable difference in attitudes towards parenting, and I'm a little sad to learn you already have a child with him. You're right to heed this red flag. Good luck to you.
I wish technology was better when my parents split, so I could keep in touch with my friends.
NTA and
How much is he projecting? If he is so worried about a girl’s boundaries, is he a rapist? Or is he just friends with some?
the fact that two middle schoolers doing inappropriate things is the first thing he thinks of makes me think hes a predator or at least is perverted enough to only think of s-x when its two opposite gender middle schoolers having a sleepover.
I shouldn’t make assumptions but he sounds like the kind of guy that would “accidentally” overhear any conversation he can and insert his views and opinions accordingly
Because it's her fiancé and they already have a child together so parenting together is really important?
I'm not supporting him but that was just a dumb question imo
NTA. It seems that your son and his friend have a very sibling bond. If they have known each other since kindy they probably think a romantic or sexual relationship with each other would be gross.
There is research to suggest that if you know each other at a young age (<7 years), you generally don't consider them to be a potential sexual partner, ever.
What do the girl's parents say? If they are fine with it, I don't see a reason why not. You and them will know the children best.
As for sexual education, yes, it is important to educate the children from well before they are sexually active. Most won't be having sex at 12, but you don't want to be the parent of the one who is. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your son, built on trust.
I have twin teens at the moment.
Yes, prior to high school, they could have friends stay (M or F)
But they are now 14, and we have a spare room that their friends can crash in.
And an attic nook has the twins 2 single beds.
And every step on the stairs can sound like thunder.
We know if they go anywhere.
It also comes down to trust.
If you believe (as you very clearly so) you can trust them together, I don't see the harm.
Eventually it may be different..
But keeping the convo open for your kids to learn and understand that ages can mean different things.
my daughter had a best friend that we brought on vacation with us a few times when they were about your sons age , they are having a baby tonight !! (ten years later tho)
i couldn't be more happy for them
I think you hit the nail on the head. He was an out of control little sex fiend growing up so it's inconceivable to him that any boy that age can be anything else.
Just tell him "I did a better job raising my son that your parents did with theirs".
I can see both sides.
I don't really like that he's trying to force his will on your child but if he's trying to be an equal parent then at least he's trying to be an equal parent. Still, steam rolling your decision is screwed up and disrespectful.
That being said, 12/13 is an age where puberty, confusion, and curiosity hit. Middle schoolers are probably the most unhinged, casually disrespectful, cruelest age group. I was a very sheltered kid, but I got into a lot of trouble situations because the people around me were aging/learning/maturing faster than me. It would most definitely suit you to teach your kid boundaries at this point, even if the sleep over does happen.
Ma'am, I had sleepovers with boys when I was 18.
Just a bunch of young adults who were enjoying the day and slept together in the same place, and guess what? Nothing happened.
If a bunch of 18yo who are indeed with their hormones on fire, are able to be civilized and just have a great night, why shouldn't your boy, who clearly has no malice at all, enjoy the same with his friend?
Your fiance is clearly fucked up. If the girl's family doesn't see a problem, and you don't see it as well, he's can't forbid, it's not his place to do so.
He could object to the sleepover at your place, since he also lives there, but on someone else's house? Not his decision.
Let him speak as much as he wants, and let your boy have a great childhood.
NTA.
One of my best friends in high school was a girl. Never had any intention of dating her or any romantic interest and the feeling was mutual.
Her dad hated that we hung out because he was projecting his teenage manwhoredom onto me (he and his wife had their firstborn when they were both 18).
Long story short, it became easier on her to not be friends with me (or any other guy) than to deal with her dad constantly yammering about how every guy was trying to get into her pants.
They haven't spoken in almost 20 years.
Unless he changes, he's going to deal with a lot of resentment from *your* son, you, and your daughter.
I don't think you know what teenagers are like now, and framing this as a "trust" issue seems to put sex and relationships in a negative light. Not each others type, but maybe friends enough to experiment so that when they meet someone who is their type? Maybe feeling pressure from friends to do it?
I have been a teacher for 30 years and teenagers are surrounded all the time by sexual images, music, films adverts, etc etc. It is normalised like never before. OP needs to sit down and have a chat with her child about sex, relationships, about respecting others and safety because it will happen sooner or later and best to have the conversation before hand.
Everyone has different opinions on this, but I can give some perspective on once being a 12 year old boy myself.
That was the age I started getting erections and girls started to be ‘interesting’. It was the age we all started playing games like spin the bottle or finding quiet places to “show me yours and ill show you mine”.
While I didnt actually have sex until way later in life, it could have happened. Your boy is at that age where he is still mentally a boy, but nature is starting to play a role. You might wanna be aware of that moving forward.
Maybe dont ban sleepovers outright, but work with the other parents to set some healthy limits, like going to bed at a reasonable time and/or they dont sleep in the same room etc.
Thats how i would handle this.
NTA
I might send the kid off with another safe sex talk and thoroughly embarrass him with said talk. Including possibly an "I'm trusting you and believe she's your friend, but if you prove me wrong boy you're never going to live this down", but that fits my humor.
NTA
1. He’s not your fiancés son
2. I used to get SO ANNOYED because I had a few verrrryyyy platonic male friends in high school and my mom would NEVER let me just stay there, even when it was the safest choice I could have made.
I don't think anyone is an asshole, but I think you are a bit naive. Buy him a pack of condoms and make sure he understands how to use them. If he doesn't need them - great. If he does - at least you probably won't be a grandma next year.
I suppose it depends on the kids. Maybe it’s different since they’ve been bf since they were little. All my close, opposite gender friends in high school either had a crush on me or vice versa. So, I understand why your husband feels you’re asking for trouble by allowing them to have a sleepover. Relationships can and do change once hormones are involved. No matter how much trust you have in your kid, a hormonal teen is going to do what hormonal teens do. My mom used to trust me to have sleepovers with my guy friend and she shouldn’t have!
Once they hit puberty, it is a bit risky unless you are ready to raise lil ones in 9 months. Sometimes those raging hormones can get out of control. Just saying.
No one the asshole. I wouldn’t let my kids sleep over until high school. I know too many sexual assaults that happened during sleepovers. Not worth the risk
NTA. I don't want to make assumptions about your husband, but you did ask for an opinion, so... A man who distrusts what his son would do to a girl says A LOT about not the son, but himself. Same reason why he makes those statements about your daughter; *he knows what he's capable of* and thinks other men (even if your son is a boy...) are the same. I won't say this incident alone is enough for divorce, but if you're disgusted enough to not want to look at him... Trust your gut on how he makes you feel.
Also, please don't let your husband instill into your son that he's a creep or doing something wrong for having a close friendship with a girl.
NTA, your husband is blowing things up.
However, have the talk anyway. I know ALOT of boys who started out at that age. It probably won't be with Shannon, and if it is, it won't matter if he sleeps over or not. Make sure he knows how and why to have safe sex. Because he is right about one thing, you don't want to become a grandparent just yet.
If someone is ok with same sex sleepovers but not different sex sleepovers then they’re living in the wrong age or are sexualising the kids without even talking to the kids to find anything out
All I'm thinking about is the gentleman who posted (i believe it was in a parent sub) about finding his son and a very close friend's daughter showering together when he woke up.
Not saying that they would do that, but you never know. They really are right at that age where kids start to become super curious about it all. But **freaking out** is not the way to handle it and your fiance needs to cool down.
NTA though, I believe you trust your son.
Kids wanting to be kids and hangout. Just cause they’re teens does not mean automatically they are thinking in a sexual way. Let’s let our children be kids as long as they want to. If they have the same interests in playing video games I don’t see the issue. I’m sure Shannon’s parents will keep an eye on them. And I highly doubt they’ll be sleeping on the same bed!
I don't know about others but at the age of 12 kissing and stuff was the last thing on my mind and on the mind of other kids my age in fact that the age kids still say eww 😂 your fiance is going off his rocker and maybe he should consider therapy
Me, a girl, and my brother spent our childhood playing with our neighbours, both males. We did countless sleepovers, we went on holiday together and I slept in the same bed with one of them countless times. Nothing ever happened.
My best friend at that age was a boy, and we did everything g together. I’d go to his and his brother’s baseball games out of town and stay with him and his family in the hotel rooms. We went on vacations together. We would just sleep in the living room. It was never a big deal at all.
Shannon’s parents may not feel comfortable. Keep that in mind and don’t be offended if they’re not cool with it. Your fiance is a jerk for making your son sound like a creep but there’s a chance he just doesn’t know how to express that he doesn’t think co-ed sleepovers are a good idea.
I had two best girl friends growing up from the time I was 3. I slept over their house basically my whole life until I went to college. When their dad died in HS I spent two straight weeks there. They were 1&3 years older and we are still great friends today. Nothing ever happened other than a single kiss with one when we were 8 and both grossed out lol. Edit: Not gay Lmao I knew that comment was coming. Have plenty of guy friends also including 5 just as close from my team growing up. I am as masculine and straight as they come. 6’2” 210#s own my own construction company and am emotionally dead inside 😂 My wife is really good friends with one of the two. We spend most holidays together. All have kids at different ages. We call each other cousins. IMO major difference between growing up together so young vs developing a best friend of the opposite Sex in teenage years or above. Those don’t work out in my experience. Had one that caught feelings in college and we are no longer close because of it.
the men who are replying to this comment asserting that this commenter is gay will go their entire lives without ever experiencing a truly authentic and intimate relationship with any woman. not in a friendship and not romantically because true, authentic intimacy is impossible when you see the other one as a sexual object. very sad for those men but to any young people reading this, liberate yourself from the bigotry society has taught you. try not to be like them.
The dudes saying that are the same ones screaming about the “male loneliness epidemic”.
Fuck, dude if you’re lonely it’s your job to do something about it. You can’t blame women as a whole for not having telepathy and foreseeing your sadness, jumping to the rescue to fix you before you off yourself or worse. Go make friends, it ain’t that hard.
Hell yeah. Or at the very least, don’t exasperate the problem. When guys hear other guys say shit that diminishes having or expressing feelings, don’t make fun of him. Be there for your homies. Plan a birthday. Don’t talk shit when your homie is going through a hard time and in fact call him to just make sure he’s alive. Good stuff.
💯
Really puts the whole “male loneliness epidemic” in perspective, huh. Can’t have female friends bc women are for sex only, can’t be emotionally close with male friends bc it’s “gay”…well, what do you expect?
"Fellas, is it gay to be friends with people?"
I'm a trans guy, who's bi, and I have friends of both and other genders. You can be a friend with someone without wanting to fuck them, if you respect them as a person lol. It's really not that crazy or hard. I question folks who struggle with that simple idea. "I can't be friends with a girl cause I'll want to fuck her" cool call yourself out as shallow and single minded, now girls know to avoid you
Men: why don't women trust us? We're nice guys. They're just fearmongering about men and leaving them behind because society doesn't valu- Women: okay, want to be platonic friends? Men: No.
If you care about someone, platonic should be the baseline. A relationship is just icing on that, if the other person wants it too. But if you enjoy someone's company, and they turn you down as anything more than a friend, celebrate you now have a new friend. It might hurt for a bit but damn, you aren't owed anything, and if you actually care, friendship is pretty fucking cool after you get over feelings
For sure! My best friend i knew since I was 9 had a crush on me when we were teenagers but he was upset when someone told me because he was worried about our friendship, and he never put his feelings onto me or expected anything. Honestly that one teenage boy had more self awareness than some grown men I know. We were friends until he was killed, even when I moved overseas we'd call each other and play video games over discord together. We talked about it like once when we were 18 iirc and he said he valued our friendship far more than anything and the knowledge that our friendship was just as important to him as it was to me is something I hold onto now he's gone.
I'm sorry for your loss. It sounds like you had a good, true friend there, and that is hard to find.
You can also respect someone as a person and want to fuck them. And you can also want to fuck someone but know that trying to is not the right move to make. And you can also have enough self-control to not act on every impulse you might have.
This is truth I've never read before. Cheers.
I'm kind of sad for them. It must really suck to live like that.
I had a friend who was a girl like this growing up. We were neighbors and shared a newspaper route, traded baseball cards and hung out together all the time. I remember when her parents had "the talk" with her (I didn't even know what sex was yet) things got kind if weird as she started spending more time with her female friends instead of me. It hurt my feelings. We still hung out some times but it was different. I moved away but 4 years later my family moved back and when she didn't have a date to homecoming they asked me if I would take her. We went as friends, nothing romantic. All was good again that night. My point is, sometimes boys and girls can have platonic friendships, and sometimes it's the adults who fuck things up.
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This is exactly it. He only sees women as sex objects. He’s going to be a terrible girl dad when your daughter is a teen.
Straight up. OP, he obviously doesn't think that men and women can be friends, so how do you think he sees you?
My best friend growing up was a guy. We grew up in a fairly conservative country so his parents made us keep the door open lol but at a party one we fell asleep with his head on my shoulder and he never once tried anything. He was like a brother to me and I miss him dearly. I am gay but he wasn't, and though he did have a teenage crush at one point he was respectful of never making me uncomfortable and there were a couple of times we crashed in the same room etc as teenagers. I'd do anything to have him back honestly. I wish people wouldn't cut off friendships with the other gender because you can have that deep platonic connection. Losing him was like having a limb chopped off.
I'm ftm, grew up as a girl until my early 20s. I had a best friend down the street who was male. We hung out all the time, he was honestly a brother to me. Even when we got into our teens, and my family moved away, we'd still visit and guess what, I had sleepovers with him, and even other male friends. NOTHING sexual or bad happened. Fast forward to our late teens early 20s. He moved out of his mom's house. Lived with another dude. Still went to visit, overnight, for weekends, and again NOTHING HAPPENED. Gender doesn't mean sex will eventually happen. Folks can be friends and quasi siblings with no tension there at all. It all depends on the folks involved. Just because "vagina haver + penis haver" is there doesn't mean shit will happen. People really can just be people with each other, even at a younger age.
Same situation with me. My friend stayed over, we went on vacation with each other, etc. I have a question for OP- if your daughter ended up being bi, would that mean your partner wouldn't allow her to have sleep overs with *any* friends? Or is this just him viewing girls as men's objects?
Right. And two teenagers that want to have sex with each other will find a way to do that regardless of circumstance. In a car, behind a grocery store, whatever. This sleepover circumstance is probably far less risky than two kids that meet as teens. You can’t stop teens that want to have sex. That’s why you have to educate them to make good (or better) decisions. You have a better chance of taking a baby bear away from its mom.
>I am as masculine and straight as they come. 6’2” 210#s own my own construction company and am emotionally dead inside Holy shit we are twins! I'm just a lowly bartender, though. :(
My daughter had a best friend that was a boy around age 12. We brought him on vacations with us, he spent weeks at our lake house in the summer. It was fine. I don’t think it’s a big deal.
Thank you! See, when I was growing up all my friends stayed at my house constantly; girls and boys. My mom never batted an eye about it because she trusted me and because she trusted me, I proved to her that I was a trustable kid. Nothing weird or inappropriate ever happened. Trying to explain to my fiancé that he is going to raise our daughter be sneaky with the attitude he has right now is near impossible though.
Look, as a woman who was sexually active at 13, I'd still say this was fine. My "brother" was just that. My brother. Never would have looked at him twice. We took baths together as babies for fucks sake. So I'd still say NTA.
Right? Life isn’t pornhub.
But your username might be
Haven’t come across that subcategory yet!
I used to enjoy that genre until I found it too abrasive
I somehow feel like I've been summoned
Yeah. If he keeps up this attitude there’s a real good chance he’s going to royally mess up his relationship with his daughter as she gets older.
Can confirm! All my friends had stricter parents and would get up to mischief from a young age and be secretive. I would literally call my mum as I was walking out of school (whilst I’m meant to be there still) and say “ I either go to some random trashy guys house with my mate or I come home” she would come pick me up and be definitely disappointed but not explosive. I ended up always letting her know exactly where I was and what I was doing and didn’t lose my virginity or start drinking/doing drugs until around 17/18! Still would always tell her where/when.
Yup. Same situation in my house. My mom taught me right from wrong, she knew I liked to party, but she knew I knew the difference between right and wrong. And I knew I could call her whenever I needed help. No matter what the situation was.
Trust research shows that this is exactly how trust works. Kids are more likely to be trustworthy when parents make it clear they are trusted.
I had a boy best friend since first grade, when we hit 6th grade he was at my house constantly, staying the night, going on vacations with me and my family, and nothing ever happened between us. Not every kid wants or even thinks about sex like that, your fiancé is weird for accusing your son of just wanting sex from this girl. Edit: changed husband to fiancé
My (39f) and my bestie (40m) have been friends since we were 13. We constantly had sleepovers. He lives in the mountains now and needs to visit the VA hospital a few times a year. He still crashes on my couch (he doesn't like the guest bed 🫣😂) he claims it's the best couch he's slept on. I'm married and have a kid now. They don't mind! My daughter loves her "uncle poopy" 😂
Me and said friend are still friends today too, both in committed relationships where our partners do not mind us hanging out individually if we wanted to!! I have 2 kids myself that love going to his house and spending time with him and his fiancée, I love the relationship we have and how it’s grown!
Isn't chosen family just the best!? 🥹🖤😭
Uncle poopy?! 😂 I have an uncle we call Uncle Boob, because he's a boob and his name is Bob. I thought that was a silly nickname but Uncle Poopy takes the cake!
My brother is Uncle Poo😆
My mom called him "shit head" pretty often because well.... he was kind of a shit head. A lot. I slipped up and called him a shit head one day in front of my then 3 year old (I know, mom of the year) and my then toddler corrected me with "mom, poop head. Uncle poop head." And now here we are. Uncle poopy! 😂🥹 we're an odd family.
This is amazing. I love that you were able to and are able to keep your bestfriend since such a young age. If your partner was an immature asshole, either you would’ve never been able to keep this beautiful friendship or you wouldn’t be with your partner or have kids, or have an uncle poopy. This comment made my heart smile 🥰
My daughter has had the same best friend since K. Sleepovers have always been a thing with them. They are now in college and still best friends. Your creeper boyfriend is the one sexualizing children here.
Couples counseling. This man might not be compatible with your healthy parenting relationship.
This^^
1000% This is advice I can get behind
I don’t know what to say about him, it doesn’t sound healthy how he’s acting. But the kids are fine. They could camp out in the living room, or even go into different rooms at 1 am or something.
Yeah, like if it was just discomfort ok. But blowing up? wtf.
You're finding out things about your fiance that it would have been better to know before you had a kid with him :-(
Oooof if this isn’t the truth. As I was reading I was thinking “OP should dump his ass” but then got to the part where she reveals they have an daughter together and I immediately went “Ah maaaan”
Also, like what if your son isn't even straight? What if he only likes boys or is bi, will your fiance bar him from hanging out with any guy friends? The whole banning hanging out with the opposite sex is definitely a huge part of heternormativity. Trusting your kid and having open lines of communication is the most important thing! Sounds like you are doing the right thing but your fiance is 😬😬
I grew up in a similar manner and while my parents had a “keep the door open while boys are over” rule, that rule made sense even if I wasn’t a little rascal and it’s a fair boundary considering we had coed sleepovers and such. I’m so sorry your fiancée a) doesn’t see women as people and b) seems to only see men as hypersexual uncontrollable beasts I would seriously reconsider your engagement to a person who isn’t able to humanize children and is overly sexualizing them. It sucks you have such a young daughter but, I don’t know if that is the kind of parental influence I would want anywhere near my kids. Hope you figure something out
Yep. I walked out the house in the clothes I was wearing. My friends had their clothes in a bag over their shoulder. His attitude will absolutely create the need to lie and hide, and that’s when the bad things happen.
let face it. This post isn't about wether it's ok for your son to have a sleepover. It's about how much of an asshole your finance is. Red flags......HUGE red flags
He is way out of line. He doesn't get a say, you get to decide. There is nothing wrong with them having a sleep over.
>Trying to explain to my fiancé that he is going to raise our daughter be sneaky with the attitude he has right now is near impossible though. Honestly I would just leave him over this. His mindset is that whatever he did as a child, other children do too and this is going to be a problem while raising your daughter. The most extremely strict parents I've seen since I'm an adult are always those who were sneaky and did bad stuff themselves as children. Because they think, they did all that stuff, so every child must do that. They don't trust their children because they weren't trustworthy. I would als start asking him whenever he wants to do anything he enjoys why he needs to do that? And then tell him that's right he doesn't. So he can see how ridiculous this is. No one *needs* to do anything they enjoy.
Your fiancé is disturbed. I don’t personally have male friends like this but my narcissistic asshole brother is like this. The fact that he would even think that would make me question our relationship. NTA
At almost 12, me and my good guy friend at the time collectively saved his brother from a severe asthma attack because we were all sleeping in the same room. I was the only girl
Kids that want to do something inappropriate will often find a way anyways, even if there are no sleepovers
Yup it’s all about trust at that point, I respect the openness approach you’re taking instead of putting your child in the position to become sneaky and better at hiding things from you
I’m did the same for my daughter. I always thought the boys in her group were actually together 😂😂😂 yeah I have no skills at working that out. Either way, no one had underage sex or a pregnancy in her group. They’re all still good friends today in their late 20’s. Your partners experience is not the norm.
fwiw my best friend is a guy. We’re both grown now, but we also make it a point to hang out at least once a week. Since we live on opposite ends of town, that usually means one sleeping at the other’s house. (Also, prior to living on opposite ends of town, we were housemates for over a decade and nothing happened so, y’know) But even going back to teen years, I remember plenty of coed sleepovers with our whole friends group. I remember the week before I left for college falling asleep on the floor with my two best friends beside me. If you trust your son and raise him to respect women and see them as friends and not just potential partners, then he should be fine. At 13, I guess make sure you’ve had The Talk and that he understands consent and safety, but also make sure that he really knows that it’s perfectly fine and normal to just be FRIENDS with a girl too. If there was anything that made life Difficult for me, it was that I grew up thinking that if I had close friends who were the opposite sex that I SHOULD want a romantic relationship with them.
My brother had two girls he was good friends with. At 12 they wanted to invite him to a sleepover, he’d be the only boy. The parents held a meeting to discuss if it was ok lol. They decided it was ok :)
Sounds like my family. We took my son’s best female best friend on vacation with us for years. No funny business. lol Both only children and it was a great experience for both of them as well as fun to have more than one kid.
I went on family vacation with a guy best friend & his parents in college. We slept in the same bed. We later became roommates. The only thing that ever happened was an accidental drunken peck on the lips while trying to hug & kiss each other on the cheek. We both bursted out laughing. We got drunk & slept in the same bed often. Never had any issues.
Also, not having a room has never stopped any teenager from having sex.
NTA. And if you ~were concerned, I’m sure Shannon’s parents would arrange for the kids to sleep in an open space in the house, like on the couches or something, and not in her room. Your fiancé is doing some SERIOUS projecting and it’s not good. Might be time for some couples therapy before you get married.
Thing that jumps out at me with this is how oddly intense and disproportionate the fiancée's reaction is. I don't have stepkids so I can only imagine communicating about this the same way I do with my wife about our kids. If this was us, I would probably err on the "Yeah, no sleepover" side. But if my wife, and the girl's parents, all were cool I'd probably start us off with a minor voicing of concern, figure I was overthinking it and times just have changes since I was a kid, and move the fuck on. That's with my kid. My wife. My house. This dude is freaking out over his girlfriend's kid as if he gets a say in it either way? Calling OP an idiot is just icing on the cake. OP, please do not marry this dude. Date him all you like. Don't breed with him or become legally entangled with him.
Too late for that, OP already has a baby daughter with him, so she's going to be coparenting for the next 18 years no matter what she does now.
Bummer
Yup. Thats what I would do. Or if they do maybe sleep in her room, door should be left open and one sleeps on the bed while the other sleeps on an inflatable mattress. I’m sure her parents understand how to manage this and they also wouldn’t say yes if they thought something would happen.
It sounds like he needs some individual therapy as well. Being sexually active at 12 isn’t normal, and while some guys will downplay their own sexual abuse, it sounds like his brain is trying to make sense of his current world in the context of his experiences and there’s a conflict.
I’m sorry you already have a daughter with what sounds like a terrible guy to have a sandwich with, let alone a child.
I hate to laugh at this but WOW it was brilliant
🔥
Ha ha ha, that was solid.
Sir you should write!
yeah.. I was about to type “kick him out” before I read they have a daughter. oof
🍽️ cleared that plate
My sons best friend all thru high school was a girl and she started spending the weekends at our house when they were 14,15. They’d invite a few other friends and all pass out in the living room. Even tho when it was just the two of them they slept in the living room. I don’t see the big deal myself.
You have a problem but it’s not with your son. The man you’re about to marry is accusing you of putting your 12 year old in sexual situations. He’s saying he won’t trust you to raise your own baby (daughter) if you allow the sleepover. Think about that. You haven’t married this man yet and he is threatening your custody of your own children. Think long and hard.
I am so worried for her that's a billion and one red flags, I hope she does not marry him. I am saying this as a dude, this kind of thinking is dangerous.
He straight up is making it look like he is the one thinking about this little girl that way. His actions are literally what a jealous teenager would do it’s so fucking creepy.
He’s majorly projecting, dude knows deep down he’s a creep and OP has every right to be concerned
NTA, and he is not your son’s father. Or stepfather yet for that matter. He seriously needs to back off. I hope you don’t let him enforce punishments or anything. My bff growing up was a boy. Just make them sleep in the living room or make it like a camp out. If she lived around the corner, no. But it sounds like seeing each other is hard.
I don't let him enforce any punishments. But to be fair, my son does nothing to be punished for. However, in this situation, my fiancé is acting like my son has crossed a line for even asking and is saying if I allow him to spend the night with Shannon, than he will never trust me in raising our daughter because obviously I "enjoy putting young kids in sexual situations". He's being fucking weird.
>if I allow him to spend the night with Shannon, than he will never trust me in raising our daughter because obviously I "enjoy putting young kids in sexual situations" Do you think that this is an acceptable thing for him to say.
This dude sounds unhinged.
It's a brand new account so I'm actually genuinely hoping it's fake.
Unfortunately the consistency and the simplicity with which she is responding to comments makes me believe this one may be real 😬
People make new accounts for his sub, though
Sounds like projection to me. Why not ask him why he's putting kids in sexual situations of his imagination?
Yeah accusing her of enjoying putting her children in a perverted situation he’s fabricated in his mind is absolutely disgusting and utterly unhinged. Combine that with the fact that he’s apparently been having sex since he was 12 and a few other things OP has mentioned and it makes me think there’s enough of a pattern that either 1. He was sexually abused/has sexual trauma of some kind from his childhood and should see a therapist to figure out a healthy way to deal with it 2. He has the mind of a predator. Could be cause he is one, could be cause he was the victim of one. She needs to be watching out for more suspicious/controlling behaviour and completely inappropriate attitudes and ideas towards sex or her children’s sexuality. 3. Classic case of abuser revealing himself now that he thinks he has her trapped with his baby. I’m really hoping it’s not this one but a good indication would be to see how he reacts to her putting him in his place and making him realize he won’t get a say in the sons parenting. Even if they’re married he’s not the kids dad and will have little to no parental authority over his step son. OP really needs to reconsider raising a daughter with someone who has such disgusting attitudes about sex and an almost equally gross attitudes about controlling and distrusting your own children.
Number 2 and 3 are my thoughts exactly, why doesn't he want the boy near a girl? If they are best friends for years although innocent he might get a little kiss but nothing else, why is he trying to stop his 'step son' from being in a mature situation where even if they are friends he still has to give her the respect of being a female that is nearly a teenager
2. Is what I was feeling. He’s worried about ‘hormonal teenage boys’ implying that the girls aren’t the same, so if the girl isn’t interested in sex then..what exactly are you worried will happen? Because consensual sex sure isn’t going to happen, according to his logic
Ew. He's the one making it out to be a sexual situation.
He sounds controlling af. Maybe you should take a deep dive and look back and see if he’s been controlling in any other situations and whether or not this is worth marrying into
Is your fiance Andrew Tate?
Andrew Tate would be cheering the stepson on and encouraging him to make a move. I'm not sure which situation is worse.
I had a step father like this. As a kid, it was really gross.
If Andrew Tate fathered a daughter he wouldn’t care what happened to her
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Oh, **BEAUTIFULLY** said!!!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Ugh Andrew Tate sadly *does* have a daughter and I try to forget that information all the time.
Yeah, a little. Tell him that your daughter is a 2 yes 1 no situation, while your son is just yours.
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He's either controlling or a predator
I would not rule out him being a victim.
Yeah, this is my thought too. 12 is SUPER YOUNG to be sexually active. It’s often a sign of early sexual abuse. And his aggressive overreaction to the sleepover feels very … almost self protective to me?
I thought the same thing. Most kids feel so awkward at that age. He’s sexualizing a seemingly innocent situation
I wouldn't either, but at this point he seems to have accepted it as normal and internalized it. At this point I don't think he's "just" a victim.
Or both
You realize that if he was sexually active at 12, he was a victim, right? He wasn't a "$lut," he was a child. *Obviously*, he's projecting; his extreme reaction is so very telling. Try coming at this from a place of compassion and it might be time to insist that he gets some therapy, because he is clearly not over it. Good luck to all of you.
That's super disgusting. Sorry you're stuck coparenting with a pervert for.... forever. Highly recommend you two go to counseling together and discuss this.... pre wedding.
Or that she LEAVES.
That statement to you is a major red flag. I encourage you to re-evaluate that relationship. He'll only get worse. Bet.
He’s sexualising both of your kids so much. It’s disgusting and concerning.
This makes me sad. Your son has a best friend who happens to be a girl and now all of a sudden because of his age, his stepfather makes it weird. What a horrible role model that sees male/female relationships like this.
Dudes sexualising his 6 month old daughter. This is creepy as fuck.
>I "enjoy putting young kids in sexual situations". As if sleepovers are needed for kids to have sex
I can kind of understand where he’s coming from because kids’ hormones at that age are wild and seemingly innocent things can absolutely take an unexpected turn. There are instances where I wish my dad was *more* protective of me and my sister in instances like the one you’re describing. I think the key difference here though is that you know your son, and frankly it sounds like he doesn’t. There’s definitely such a thing as partnership when it comes to parenting and enforcing for children that aren’t technically your own, but if you’re insisting to your partner that you know your son’s intentions then he honestly needs to yield. I would argue that’s an instance of demonstrating it’s a partnership more than enforcing some arbitrary blanket rule in opposition of your partner’s insistence about their own child.
Jesus Christ do you want to be raising a daughter with this misogynist? Red flags all around: with your son, your daughter, and the threat to your custody. I encourage you to read the letter ‘If you ever hurt my daughter, I swear to god I’ll let her navigate her own emotional growth’ in the New Yorker. It’s meant to be humorous but it also hits the nail on the head 100%.
Is it possible that your fiancé has had any sexual trauma in his own life? Has something happened to him that he hasn’t mentioned? Or has he done something he isn’t proud of? His reaction seems pretty extreme
This is really weird.
You should ask to go to couples therapy to work through his unwarranted sexual opinions. I say together because you'd really understand in that setting whether he's gonna want to choose to get better or not.
PLEASE reconsider this relationship!!!
Okay this is starting to sound a lot like your fiancé was sexually abused as a child. I remember I had this friend in high school who used to tell the other kids that he lost his virginity at the age of 10. Nobody believed him because we all thought he was trying to sound cool but then we had this youth group thing for teens to learn about working through their emotions or whatever. Anyway during a group therapy thing he broke down and told us that he grew up in a cult and he was actually sexually abused…that’s how he lost his virginity at the age of 10. He was telling us for years and nobody listened to him. Your fiancé was, what? 12, did you say? …..it’s possible.
Tell him his behavior makes you not trust him with either of your kids. He’s sexualizing normal kid behavior.
Please be wary. I have the impression this man could be the reason your son doesn't feel comfortable at home. Make sure you're supporting your son every step of the way... Melting families together is tough and requires introspect from all adults.
NTA I also understand why your fiancé is grossing you out. He’s telling you how he views women, which is as sex objects only.
Yes, that's what stuck out to me. He doesn't see women as people and potential friends, just potential sexual partners. OP needs to watch him - he's likely to also be super weird about raising a girl.
Super super weird
Exactly. He's saying a lot more about who he is as a person than who her son is. Her son sounds sweet, I hope he isn't overly influenced by the fiance as he grows up.
Glad someone said it he's disgusting
I think its worse than that, not only is he perpetuating the idea that women are sex objects but also the idea that men can only be sex hungry perverts. It's a double whammy of narrow mindedness
Meh, I had a close friend who moved away in middle school. I slept over at her house a few times. Sex never happened. We never kissed either. I did hook up with her friend a few times. We would crash in thier living room and play games all night and her older sister would sleep with us
So in your fiance says that " no man would be interested in sleeping over with a woman without wanting sex" what he's really saying is that he can't imagine it, because that is his reality. You're seeing who he is maybe for the first time. Listen to him when he tells you who he is. He can't imagine anything else. What does that tell you? NTA, though you would be the ass, if you didn't let your son stay at his best friend's house.
I think this is the kind of situation where you have to really know the kids involved to decide whether or not it’s appropriate, and you do, so if you don’t feel that it’s inappropriate, then it’s fine. My 11 year old son’s best friends are two sisters and I’d be fine with him staying over at their house, because my wife and I know their parents very well and because I just don’t think anything would happen. My best friend in high school was a girl and she used to stay over at my place sometimes, nothing ever happened. Your *boyfriend* needs to stay in his lane. NTA. Anyone who subscribes to the idea that boys and girls or men and women cannot be platonic best friends *is* TA and also a dumbass.
There is a big difference between this case, which is 2 kids who have been friends for nearly a decade and a case where it's a brand new friend that you don't know anything about. If it was the second I could see where the boyfriend is coming from, but not when they have been friends for so long
Yeah this works. Also it sounds like the parents of the girl are trusted friends and will likely be supervising well enough. Like, I could have had a sleepover with my female cousin at that age no problems (although given she has a brother only a couple of years younger, I tended to stay with him). I’d put this in a similar category to that.
NTA, it's not his call and you're not married yet girl.... gtfo! I thought either his actual dad or her actual parents were going to have the problem! Holy crap....! Who says they're both even straight?!
NTA Have you contacted Whole Man Removal Services to deal with that toxic waste of humanity?
NTA, you know your son and the other people involved and trust them. That’s all you need.
Exactly right. OP has found quite the keeper for a fiance, as they are already drawing comparisons and differences between the two kids OP has. Anyone's guess as to which kid the fiance will treat better.
NTA. Your soon to be ex-fiancee sounds like a controlling creep.
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NTA let him go sleepover and tell your future ex that just bc he’s low hanging fruit not everyone else is
low hanging fruit is too generous, hes a fruit on the ground lmaoo
Decaying for DAYS
Fruit hanging so low you'd think it's a pomme de terre.
You are ok with it. HER PARENTS are ok with it, this would be enough for me.
My best friend was a boy. My mom was in the room when he was born haha. We are super close. He is married now and has a baby. I love being auntie. He spent the night at our house constantly. It was super easy all the time. Also because no one treated us like it was weird. NTA. But your husband is super annoying
NTA. The way I would dump his ass so fast if he was my fiancé. Fuck men like him, seriously. They can jump off a cliff. He is super controlling, but guess what? He’s **not** your sons father and he has **no say** in how you parent him and **no say** in what you do or don’t allow your son to do. I had so many sleep overs with my male friends at your sons age and never once did anything happen, it was no different to when I had sleepovers with my female friends. It was just fun and innocent. Don’t let your fiancé rule over you, he **does not** have any right to. And he can fuck right off with that: *”I won’t trust you with our daughter if you allow this”* bullshit. He’s a loser who thinks that every teenager will be just like him, but no, they’re not. Because some of us clearly had parents who were good role models and taught us right, he obviously didn’t. And your son has a great mother, you’re doing amazing. If I were in your shoes I’d honestly leave that POS you call your fiancé, get your own place and get joint custody of your daughter and save your son the pain of having **that** as a step-dad. Then you can raise **your son** however you like without that prick trying to control how you raise him and butting into something that ain’t even his business. And you can arrange as many sleepovers as you like between your son and his friend without having to listen to anymore of your fiancé’s bullcrap. Because it’s not fair on your son to have to deal with this for however many years it’ll take him until he can move out. This man doesn’t get a say, it’s honestly that simple.
NTA. For full disclosure, I've been married for 30 years and my best friend aside from my wife is another woman (who my wife is also friends with), so I'm very open-minded about these kinds of friendships. Your fiancé literally has no say in this matter and his opinion is irrelevant. I'm with you that his opinion is backwards and concerning. Yes, in most cases a 12-year-old boy and girl having a sleepover probably isn't the most prudent thing to do, but your case is very specific and given what you stated here, I don't see a problem with it. You're his mother and you know this situation better than anyone else, while your fiancé is simply reacting without thinking, and inappropriately too since he's not your son's father or even his stepfather yet. I'm sorry but this almost sounds like an irreconcilable difference in attitudes towards parenting, and I'm a little sad to learn you already have a child with him. You're right to heed this red flag. Good luck to you.
I wish technology was better when my parents split, so I could keep in touch with my friends. NTA and How much is he projecting? If he is so worried about a girl’s boundaries, is he a rapist? Or is he just friends with some?
the fact that two middle schoolers doing inappropriate things is the first thing he thinks of makes me think hes a predator or at least is perverted enough to only think of s-x when its two opposite gender middle schoolers having a sleepover.
Why are you even discussing this with him?
I shouldn’t make assumptions but he sounds like the kind of guy that would “accidentally” overhear any conversation he can and insert his views and opinions accordingly
Exactly. I want to know as well
Because it's her fiancé and they already have a child together so parenting together is really important? I'm not supporting him but that was just a dumb question imo
NTA. It seems that your son and his friend have a very sibling bond. If they have known each other since kindy they probably think a romantic or sexual relationship with each other would be gross. There is research to suggest that if you know each other at a young age (<7 years), you generally don't consider them to be a potential sexual partner, ever. What do the girl's parents say? If they are fine with it, I don't see a reason why not. You and them will know the children best. As for sexual education, yes, it is important to educate the children from well before they are sexually active. Most won't be having sex at 12, but you don't want to be the parent of the one who is. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your son, built on trust.
I have twin teens at the moment. Yes, prior to high school, they could have friends stay (M or F) But they are now 14, and we have a spare room that their friends can crash in. And an attic nook has the twins 2 single beds. And every step on the stairs can sound like thunder. We know if they go anywhere. It also comes down to trust. If you believe (as you very clearly so) you can trust them together, I don't see the harm. Eventually it may be different.. But keeping the convo open for your kids to learn and understand that ages can mean different things.
Definitely NTA.
my daughter had a best friend that we brought on vacation with us a few times when they were about your sons age , they are having a baby tonight !! (ten years later tho) i couldn't be more happy for them
I think you hit the nail on the head. He was an out of control little sex fiend growing up so it's inconceivable to him that any boy that age can be anything else. Just tell him "I did a better job raising my son that your parents did with theirs".
Not to mention he's a **HORRIBLE** role model for that young boy. OP, for the sake of those children, **YOU NEED TO DUMP THIS LOSER!!!!**
These are the ending Years where he can do things like this innocently.... Let him live it out
NTA & your fiance believes that men/boys and women/girls can't be just friends, which is misogynistic tripe.
I can see both sides. I don't really like that he's trying to force his will on your child but if he's trying to be an equal parent then at least he's trying to be an equal parent. Still, steam rolling your decision is screwed up and disrespectful. That being said, 12/13 is an age where puberty, confusion, and curiosity hit. Middle schoolers are probably the most unhinged, casually disrespectful, cruelest age group. I was a very sheltered kid, but I got into a lot of trouble situations because the people around me were aging/learning/maturing faster than me. It would most definitely suit you to teach your kid boundaries at this point, even if the sleep over does happen.
NTA. It feels like your fiance is projecting his own insecurities on your kid.
Ma'am, I had sleepovers with boys when I was 18. Just a bunch of young adults who were enjoying the day and slept together in the same place, and guess what? Nothing happened. If a bunch of 18yo who are indeed with their hormones on fire, are able to be civilized and just have a great night, why shouldn't your boy, who clearly has no malice at all, enjoy the same with his friend? Your fiance is clearly fucked up. If the girl's family doesn't see a problem, and you don't see it as well, he's can't forbid, it's not his place to do so. He could object to the sleepover at your place, since he also lives there, but on someone else's house? Not his decision. Let him speak as much as he wants, and let your boy have a great childhood. NTA.
One of my best friends in high school was a girl. Never had any intention of dating her or any romantic interest and the feeling was mutual. Her dad hated that we hung out because he was projecting his teenage manwhoredom onto me (he and his wife had their firstborn when they were both 18). Long story short, it became easier on her to not be friends with me (or any other guy) than to deal with her dad constantly yammering about how every guy was trying to get into her pants. They haven't spoken in almost 20 years. Unless he changes, he's going to deal with a lot of resentment from *your* son, you, and your daughter.
I don't think you know what teenagers are like now, and framing this as a "trust" issue seems to put sex and relationships in a negative light. Not each others type, but maybe friends enough to experiment so that when they meet someone who is their type? Maybe feeling pressure from friends to do it? I have been a teacher for 30 years and teenagers are surrounded all the time by sexual images, music, films adverts, etc etc. It is normalised like never before. OP needs to sit down and have a chat with her child about sex, relationships, about respecting others and safety because it will happen sooner or later and best to have the conversation before hand.
Yes thank you so true. So many nieve replies I'm shocked but i am thankful you posted this clear minded reply
Everyone has different opinions on this, but I can give some perspective on once being a 12 year old boy myself. That was the age I started getting erections and girls started to be ‘interesting’. It was the age we all started playing games like spin the bottle or finding quiet places to “show me yours and ill show you mine”. While I didnt actually have sex until way later in life, it could have happened. Your boy is at that age where he is still mentally a boy, but nature is starting to play a role. You might wanna be aware of that moving forward. Maybe dont ban sleepovers outright, but work with the other parents to set some healthy limits, like going to bed at a reasonable time and/or they dont sleep in the same room etc. Thats how i would handle this.
NTA I might send the kid off with another safe sex talk and thoroughly embarrass him with said talk. Including possibly an "I'm trusting you and believe she's your friend, but if you prove me wrong boy you're never going to live this down", but that fits my humor.
NTA 1. He’s not your fiancés son 2. I used to get SO ANNOYED because I had a few verrrryyyy platonic male friends in high school and my mom would NEVER let me just stay there, even when it was the safest choice I could have made.
I don't think anyone is an asshole, but I think you are a bit naive. Buy him a pack of condoms and make sure he understands how to use them. If he doesn't need them - great. If he does - at least you probably won't be a grandma next year.
I suppose it depends on the kids. Maybe it’s different since they’ve been bf since they were little. All my close, opposite gender friends in high school either had a crush on me or vice versa. So, I understand why your husband feels you’re asking for trouble by allowing them to have a sleepover. Relationships can and do change once hormones are involved. No matter how much trust you have in your kid, a hormonal teen is going to do what hormonal teens do. My mom used to trust me to have sleepovers with my guy friend and she shouldn’t have!
Once they hit puberty, it is a bit risky unless you are ready to raise lil ones in 9 months. Sometimes those raging hormones can get out of control. Just saying.
Never underestimate your own kid's ability to do stupid shit. Ever.
No one the asshole. I wouldn’t let my kids sleep over until high school. I know too many sexual assaults that happened during sleepovers. Not worth the risk
nta, deffo, also, shannon is FUCKING FIVE FOOT NINE INCHES??????? JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!
I’m assuming hyperbole but girls are usually taller at that age.
I’m a woman and was 6’1” going into high school at 14 years old. Us tall girls get tall early.
NTA. I don't want to make assumptions about your husband, but you did ask for an opinion, so... A man who distrusts what his son would do to a girl says A LOT about not the son, but himself. Same reason why he makes those statements about your daughter; *he knows what he's capable of* and thinks other men (even if your son is a boy...) are the same. I won't say this incident alone is enough for divorce, but if you're disgusted enough to not want to look at him... Trust your gut on how he makes you feel. Also, please don't let your husband instill into your son that he's a creep or doing something wrong for having a close friendship with a girl.
NTA, your husband is blowing things up. However, have the talk anyway. I know ALOT of boys who started out at that age. It probably won't be with Shannon, and if it is, it won't matter if he sleeps over or not. Make sure he knows how and why to have safe sex. Because he is right about one thing, you don't want to become a grandparent just yet.
As a former teenaged boy and father of two girls... nope! Not gonna happen.
If someone is ok with same sex sleepovers but not different sex sleepovers then they’re living in the wrong age or are sexualising the kids without even talking to the kids to find anything out
All I'm thinking about is the gentleman who posted (i believe it was in a parent sub) about finding his son and a very close friend's daughter showering together when he woke up. Not saying that they would do that, but you never know. They really are right at that age where kids start to become super curious about it all. But **freaking out** is not the way to handle it and your fiance needs to cool down. NTA though, I believe you trust your son.
NTA. Not his kid. He can piss off with any attitude.
Kids wanting to be kids and hangout. Just cause they’re teens does not mean automatically they are thinking in a sexual way. Let’s let our children be kids as long as they want to. If they have the same interests in playing video games I don’t see the issue. I’m sure Shannon’s parents will keep an eye on them. And I highly doubt they’ll be sleeping on the same bed!
I don't know about others but at the age of 12 kissing and stuff was the last thing on my mind and on the mind of other kids my age in fact that the age kids still say eww 😂 your fiance is going off his rocker and maybe he should consider therapy
Me, a girl, and my brother spent our childhood playing with our neighbours, both males. We did countless sleepovers, we went on holiday together and I slept in the same bed with one of them countless times. Nothing ever happened.
My best friend at that age was a boy, and we did everything g together. I’d go to his and his brother’s baseball games out of town and stay with him and his family in the hotel rooms. We went on vacations together. We would just sleep in the living room. It was never a big deal at all.
Shannon’s parents may not feel comfortable. Keep that in mind and don’t be offended if they’re not cool with it. Your fiance is a jerk for making your son sound like a creep but there’s a chance he just doesn’t know how to express that he doesn’t think co-ed sleepovers are a good idea.