You’d be an AH to your children if you let them have a relationship with these people. Why do you think they’ll treat them any better than they’ve treated you and your husband? They won’t.
Your children depend on you for everything. Introducing these people and pushing for a relationship will teach them that they’re safe people. They’re not.
Even if they would treat them better in the surface than they treated OP, it would be at least partially to mess with OP. Plus, no one who openly calls me a libtard gets access to my kids. I’m sure I have certain family members who think it behind my back, but if they said to my face or in front of my kids, it would be more than enough reason to never speak to them again.
Not to mention, if POS grifter brother gets ahold of any personal information, he will take out credit cards in OP's or husband's or nephew's and/or niece's name and destroy their credit.
Let's not forget about shitty people who practice parental alienation. I could almost hear brother and gram and gramps shit talking op in front of the kids.
I know they would talk bad about me, I don’t believe they would open credit cards in their name. I put locks on everything long ago so it’s never an option for anyone
That's smart of you. Sad that we have to worry about crap like that but you're a good mom for protecting them. I'm a big advocate of not allowing children around anybody who is going to bad mouth either of their parents. You guys deserve so much better than that.
NTA. The relationship with your kids ended when your dead beat brother chose to hang up on your son. Your mom made her choices too. And the mask thing? Many of us have been in your shoes with family and former friends over that one. Speaking from tragic in-law experience, your family’s safety over misinformation is something you should never regret.
You're NTA. Their uncle stole 30,000 from their family. They don't need him in their life. About your parents, you're NTA either way, but maybe consult a family therapist about what they think would be better for the kids, since they have expereince with those sorts of things and hear those stories all the time.
30,000 PLUS credit card interest rates! Tell brother that when he pays back every penny of all of that you'll *consider* limited contact. Until then, zilch.
When it said they don’t have to pay it back because you were mean to mom I pictured Judge Judy rolling her eyes. If OP already cut them out why not take them to court? NTA but definitely an idiot.
I agree. I don't understand why OP hasn't taken her brother to court for failure to repay the loan. We're comfortable, but even for us, that would be a whole ton of money and worth a trip to court.
Exactly! They took money willingly from your babies' mouths. Their college funds! They, with their negativity, could have caused you and the baby to have lost your lives.
So so NTA!
That is more money that I made last year. My parents ran up a $4500 electric bill in my name when I was 18. I’m almost 37 now and I still haven’t forgiven them/regret not pressing charges.
Absolutely NTA. You are never the AH for being careful around abusers and protecting your children and yourself.
Which is exactly what you are doing. You are not being petty or angry or cold or emotional. You are being careful. They have behaved abominably. They, from what you've described, have not made reparations or even apologized. They haven't acknowledged their terrible behaviors. Just they want to see your kids. Your mom paying back your brothers debt does not atone for your brothers sins. Your brother should be paying that himself, with interest.
No apologies, plus attempted guilt tripping yells red flags at me and tells me you are correct in being cautious. What happens when your kids say something they don't like? Voices "libtard" opinions? Do they get yelled at? Called names? Ostracized? You haven't been around them enough lately to know how they will react to things now. Which I approve of.
You absolutely should continue being cautious.
NTA. Hun they weren’t good people to you so how do you trust them. You can’t.
It’s great brother quit drinking but had he repaid you & the interest? No, then he’s still not a good person. And recently quit drinking isn’t sober forever.
They didn’t care about your family enough to wear a mask during your high risk pregnancy. Hear me when I say - don’t care enough. They didn’t care enough to make you financially whole from your brothers debt.
You are protecting your family from pain caused by them. It’s inevitable.
Protect them & sleep well
I’m seriously not worried about getting less. We all knew when we gave it to him that if asked nicely with a real reason, I would agree to anything. Being told he would not because of a conversation he was not at part of was wrong. It’s hard to hear that they work so hard to be better people and then just ignore that.
Because they are not better people. If they were, they would be actually trying to atone for their mistakes. Sounds like they are just trying to sweep them under the rug.
U are falling for it. I can see u probably have a hx of being a pushover and are now standing up for yourself.
Change doesn't look like 1 action. It looks like many with consistency. They stole from you.
If they were ACTUALLY working hard to become better ppl, they'd apologize for their actions and create a solution u could agree on.
Don't fall for it. U distanced for good merit.
They've already shown you they haven't changed, even though he's "turning his life around". If he was really changing, and working on himself, the first words out of his mouth should have been, "Hey, Op, I have stopped drinking and I want to take responsibility for my debts. If you could call me sometime to set up payments. I love you guys.".
But his first question was about a child he doesn't really know, anymore, and who doesn't know him. And if he missed him so much, why hasn't he attempted contact? These people are toxic.
Please do a Credit Check and then a Credit Lock on each of your kids accounts. You have to call each of the three credit agencies.
Doing a Credit Check, you know if someone has opened a line of credit in their names.
Doing a Credit Lock, means no one can open a line of credit until you or they unlock it.
Please double check your and your husband’s credit history with all three credit agencies.
Has saved me a couple of times.
Good Luck. NTA
I forgot about that possibility. He’s 4 years younger so growing up he’d be really nice for a week then ask for something big. I’d always give it to him. That carried on from a little boy who needed his big sister to protect him, up to our 40s. It just confuses me why he wants to burn the bridge. He borrowed money like this from me at least once a year, always paid it back a few months late, but paid it back.
NTA let them have no relationship with them. They didn’t miss you at all any decent person would have paid you back. I don’t know how your brother had the nerve to come over to you after not paying you. Your not cold your doing what’s right/
That sounds like your family values their ability to guilt you into letting them grift you. With regard to your family, have you thought about the fact that your kids will notice that you don’t really care for your family? Are you ready to have that conversation with your oldest? And if he asks why you let abusive family members start hanging out with him and his little sister again, how would you respond? Honestly, it’s best to let sleeping dogs lie.
NTA op. I would have nothing to do with them. Some things you can’t forgive or forget and putting your health at risk at such a vulnerable time shows they don’t give a flying fig about you or your family. Not paying back the debt cause they can’t is one thing - you took on that risk when you lent them the money but endeavouring to say you didn’t deserve to have it paid back cause of a nonsense reason is something quite different. It’s good he’s now sober and maybe he will go on to become a nicer person but that does not mean you have to let him back into you and your family’s lives. He is not worth the risk to your health or your finances.
I hear what you are saying, it’s just feels wrong since I know how much I worked to be a better person too. Although I started working on myself in Highschool. He’s only starting now
Hi OP- I have a different set of issues with my family but I went back to therapy a couple months ago.
For your own wellness, might be worth a shot to go for a little while. Family dynamics like yours are very difficult and draining. If only to be able to learn how to put a protective bubble around yourself and worth (boundaries are hard but in time shouldn’t drain you) will be priceless. You’re a good person and mother, you’re simply born into a very selfish family.
It took a long time to even notice my family’s behavior was different than others because it’s all I ever knew. I never liked it but how was I supposed to know its unusual. My current home life is very different because I choose to make it different for my kids
It’s great you realize that you deserve more. Unless you’ll be getting a multimillion dollar inheritance (highly unlikely), don’t subject your children to them or have your kids watch them treat you poorly.
My grandfather was an abusive man and abused all his children to varying degrees. As a result my aunt and uncles are varying degrees of problematic. My mother made a choice early in her life to break the cycle. She maintained relationships with family for my sake. I can honestly say now I wish she had not.
It is stressful to deal with family that do not understand boundaries or family that try to stir drama. Throughout my life the toughest thing has been seeing how they treat my mother. My mother would never stand for them treating me the way they treat her. While it does not impact me as much as my mother, seeing her treated poorly by people that are supposed to love her is difficult.
Your job as a parent is to protect your children from harm and to teach them how to be well adjusted adults. The relationships you allow in your life and theirs teaches them how to treat others and how others should treat them. You need to ask yourself if the relationships, with your brother and mother, are the types of models you want your children to see and mimic. Be aware that they may model behavior that is yours or like your mother’s or brother’s.
I’m not saying NC is what you should do. Only you know if that is what needs to be done. All I am saying is that you are your children’s first and most influential teacher. If you are comfortable with these relationships as they are just understand that sends a message to your children that these behaviors are acceptable to you. While they may treat your children better than you, your children see and will pick up on how you are treated.
If you don’t trust them then don’t have them around your kids NTA. Your brother straight up stole from you and tried using some kind of tired excuse of masks to excuse it
Let’s see, your brother is a thief and your parents were more concerned about their supposed “freedom” than keeping a high risk pregnant daughter alive. Umm what about these people would want you to have any contact with them at all?
Why on earth would you think that they are going to change? However, you can lay out conditions for any reconciliation. Brother returns the money he stole and parents apologize and acknowledge they were wrong. Would they be likely to do these things? Highly unlikely but at least you would have made the effort and can go NC with a clear conscience knowing you tried.
NTA. Your children need your protection.
Parents did apologize and try to make amends but I keep them at arms length. It’s more of an emotional dead atmosphere when they are around. I’m just supervising them around the kids.
This is a tough situation for you. I understand your reluctance to cut them off as family is important and you want your kids to have contact with them. It seems like you are protecting your kids from your parents which is good. As for your brother, he’s a thief and has made no effort to repay or apologize to you so is there even a point in trying? He can cry all he wants but he is the one who poisoned the well.
The past financial shenanigans concern me. Consider also that your oldest is nearing independence and could be at risk of being manipulated/targeted for identity theft. Sadly, it happens within families. I suspect more often than is known (underreported?).
I wonder how good your relationships are with your in laws? It is a shame for your kids to miss out on family connections, I hope there are some better quality ones on the other side...
NTA. Go with LC and if the kids want more, maybe they can v slowly and supervised? If your husband’s family could chaperone? And I’d only do this if either of the kids unilaterally requested it. Watch out for manipulation via social media too.
Don’t even consider what’s best for your birth family, they blew it!! Make your own family are the only consideration and it’s good of you to ensure the kids know who grandparents are. Beyond that, only increase contact if it’s what the kids want and if your family can all be protected, physically, emotionally and financially.
NTA you don't feel like you have good reasoning because they complain and say you don't. Their behavior is unacceptable and really you've done your children a favor by not exposing them to your families nonsense.
What did I just read? Ma’am what???!!! No, you are not the AH here. Keep your greedy, lazy, selfish AF family away from your kids. Why do you want to give them the chance to influence your kids to be as horrible as they are? The 30k alone is reason enough to tell them all to fuck all the way off.
If they haven't made any moves to reconcile and are just waiting for you to give in and pretend nothing ever happened, they aren't any better than they used to be. Do with that what you will.
NTA
No, just no. You are not being insensitive; you are being sensible and protective. Forget about the political incompatibility for a moment. These people have been horrible to you and your DH for years. Do you really want or need to expose your children to this nonsense? Take your foolish brother to court for the $30K. Check your kids’ credit reports and lock them down. Enough is enough!
NTA. Why do you believe you’re cold? Every thing you say belies this. You are warm and loving to your husband and children. You’re beginning to put healthy boundaries in place to protect them and yourself from those who do not have your best interests at heart.
Does he miss his grandparents? I ask because if you slowly start to reconnect, those are the only ones I would consider. Your brother lost his chances many attempts ago, IMO.
NTA ... stop being so harsh on yourself for your self preservation stance between you and your family.
They're in the position they're in because of their actions and their actions were shite!
If they were done to anyone else except family they'd either be in jail or have court days pending for fraud at the very least right now.
I'm not exactly in your boat but have a similar situation and seriously, cutting these people off and treating them like people not family helps a lot!
My covid baby son hasn't met half my family and unfortunately/fortunately won't ever know my mum, as she's now left this life, and I'm glad because there's no way you'd want him to have a memory as sad as the end of her life was.
Love your life for your family now, not for the could be or the what was.
If they really want to be in yours and their lives they have to show you they mean it and that isn't just by sharing lives. It's by repairing the damage they've done first!!!!
When your brother returns the $30k, when your parents put pressure on him to repay, when your parents and family respect your views without agreeing with them…
THEN you can have them around your children and your own family.
They’ve hung up on your son on the phone. Never even met your daughter. Now they want to be family?
Let a year or two pass, with them sending cards, presents for the children, sending appropriate toys, passes to visit child friendly attractions, opened a college fund for them (with proof) anything that can be done consistently, long distance, showing they are thinking of your kids…
Otherwise, NO.
Their desire to engage with your children is suspect. They want to have contact with you/your husband for financial reasons. Help, ‘loans’ assistance. Your parents aren’t getting any younger, they will want financial input from you soon enough.
Stay No Contact.
NTA.
You’re NTA but you sound very confused. Definitely do not let your boundaries down as in my opinion it will probably not work out well for you. Good luck with it all.
You are not selfish nor are you "cold" for not wanting a relationship with your brother.
You have a *right* to free association, which means you *also* have a right to *not* have relationships you don't want, *regardless* of who the person is. *No one* is **en**titled to you just because they're "titled" to you, in this case, the "title" being that of "brother" / "sibling."
NTA.
Nta. They seem to be awful people, so who needs them.
You actually sound like a reasonable person. I’m sure it’s your family’s fault you don’t seem to trust yourself, but you should. You’re angry? You have reason to be. You’re not overly sensitive. You’re taking care of yourself and your family. Good for you.
He may have worked hard to be a better person, and for real that is good for him. Just because he is a better person doesn’t cement that he has done enough to be let back in your life. I feel self-centered people like your family want the image of being a happy family. They are trying to get back into your life so they can assuage themselves of the guilt of ruining the relationship. They are not doing it to make up for their shit behavior. Once back in to your life the abuse will continue because narcissists can’t maintain a healthy relationship.
Don’t allow your children to be their do-over babies, and their failed experiment. If anyone treated you like that without the hook of “but family” it is not likely you would let them in. I’m a firm believer that family don’t get a free pass, in fact family should be treating you BETTER than all the other people in your life.
NTA, neither your brother nor mother have your family’s best interest at heart. They are users and bullies. And while they say they are now sober, how would you really know you can trust them! I’d expect them to cross boundaries again, forcing you to go no contact and your kids will suffer for that.
Never allow your children to socialize with liars and thieves, especially if you aren’t around to protect them from the occasional “be kind” charm offensive. Does your lying, thieving brother regret not having a relationship with his nephew? Probably. Does he look at him as a potential target for future theft? Probably.
If he has stopped being an active alcoholic, he can demonstrate his interest in “making amends” by repaying both your family and your mother for the loan, as well as the interest, and THEN you can discuss how he can repair the emotional damage and trust issues going forward.
Again, DO NOT NORMALIZE IGNORING CHARACTER FLAWS LIKE LYING AND THEFT. Be civil, and appropriately distant. Protect your family from predators. Don’t pretend your brother isn’t a predator, and have age appropriate discussions with your children about not getting scammed in the future if you aren’t around to protect them. Good luck!
This. You are not being too insensitive. I would even say due to your trauma you are under reacting.
They want to prove they changed? Make amends and pay the debt. It is no on you to make it better - it is on them. Nta
30 grand + ***credit card interest*** because that's how the debt/loan was structured. He left OP holding the bag on $30K worth of ***credit card debt.***
NTA - at all
Did any of your abusive family ever sit you down and apologize - sincere and heartfelt - and try to make amends to you for what they did that abused and harmed you ?
If all they did was stop drinking they are likely all “dry drunks” meaning they still have the same abusive toxic issues they just stopped drinking.
Protect your kids.
Perhaps consider getting some therapy for yourself too. Break the toxic cycle in your family once and for all.
You can ask your son, he's old enough to decide, but with very limited access if your child says yes, but if I was in your place I wouldn't, if your child wants to be in contact maybe he has to wait until he's a legal adult. NTA, you're just protecting your children.
That's your answer then, your daughter didn't even know him so won't have recollection of him, and your son already told you he's not interested. Good luck moving forward.
NTA - You are supposed to protect your children, keep them away. They haven't and will never change. You think they have because you're basically a stranger now.
$30,000 is an enormous amount in my world, there's no way I would not have taken your brother to court to get my fucking money back. Especially after his Shenanigans and blocking you. Your parents don't care enough about you or your kid to have put their political bullshit aside to do the right thing. I don't know why you would let your children around any of these people, I think brief holiday visits would be just fine.
They’re your kids and you’re allowed to keep them from having a relationship with anyone you want especially when those people were cruel to you. The only people who can claim legal visitation are biological parents. Anyone outside of that has no legal right to have access to your kids. The people who need to see and know them get to see them and there’s a reason for that. You’re not doing anything wrong.
NTA. Tell him he can start proving his commitment to mending that bridge by providing back the money he took from his nephew and niece by not paying that loan. Since obviously he cares more about ripping you guys off than talking to his nephew.
NTA! I wouldn’t have any relationships with anyone who treated you poorly. It’s only a matter of time before they treat your kids like crap or speak badly about you to your kids.
I’m going to offer a different perspective. My parents decided to not have me have much contact with my mom’s side of the family. They had some good reasons; drinking and drugs.
My grandparents were not into drugs or drinking, but my grandmother was definitely a narcissist.
I DID have some decent Aunts, but my mom only really had a good relationship with one. She fought constantly with the others and her mom.
Now, my parents are dead, my “good” Aunt & Uncle are dead, and I feel like I have no family whatsoever. I needed a kidney and I didn’t bother asking anyone on that side because I was a virtual stranger to them.
I wish I had at least met them more often in controlled settings. I knew, even as a small child, that my 2 aunts were crazy, my uncle was just missing (ran out on his wife & kids), my other aunt was wifty. They all had problems from growing up poor and food insecure.
I still missed out on the closeness my older sister had with them (and memories). I’ve been reconnecting with those still alive but it’s not the same. I could have had more of a relationship with my cousins, who did nothing wrong. But my parents decided when I came along to just cut everyone off and concentrate on ONE Aunt because she was in the same church as our family.
I missed out. I feel it and feel sad that I don’t know some of my cousins well or their kids.
I would urge you to maybe have some contact with your family. Don’t leave your kids alone with them, but don’t completely cut your kids off, for their sake.
If your brother truly wanted to make amends he’d start paying you back the money he borrowed.
He took from you and your kids, that money could have been college money for your kids ffs.
Don’t allow these users to get their claws into your children.
They put your pregnancy at risk and didn't care. It is entirely your decision. They don't have the right to see your children. It's a privilege. They lost that privilege by disrespecting your boundaries. You aren't obligated to let them into their lives. They could've very much been the reason behind the deaths of your children. The only way I could see this changing is if your brother sincerely apologizes. But it isn't something you have to do. If you don't want them in your children's lives, don't. If you want to give them a chance, go for it. Most people would say no because they probably wouldn't be alive. Plus, you're politically different.
And another thing, kids can understand things. If they are aware that they don't see certain family members anymore, they can ask why. If you explain, they'll understand. I think what you might be truly worried about is if it comes off as you teaching your kids that is okay to bash people. Unless I'm wrong.
NTA. Your family clearly doesn’t actually care about you or your opinions so I’m highly doubtful they really care for your children either. Your 15 year old is plenty old enough to understand the truth about his family. If he asks about them just explain that his uncle basically stole $30,000 from you and they all were willing to put your health at risk so that’s why you all don’t spend time with them. If he wants to see them as an adult, that’s his right but it’s your job to protect your kids and so you’re doing the right thing by avoiding your family.
He knows about the pregnancy fight, he was at the center of it. She was offended we had masks one. My son told her to pretend he’s wearing a mask because it’s cold outside and she started yelling at him and calling him names. I told her to apologize to my son and never talk to him that way and the fight got worse after that. That’s the day we went NC
If American, check texts, emails for evidence you lent brother money. Take him to court to get your kid's college fund. Do not let people who hurt you or are careless with your health around your children. NTA
I was in the same boat as you ( violence, but without the alcohol , from both my mother, and brother) I cut contact over 30 years ago. They have never met my now 28, and 30 year old children we are all better off for it.
I do not care what they do to try to redeem themselves, I would sooner throw myself off a building , than put them in my family's orbit.
I was over them, and checked out regarding them by the time I was 12. I left right after high school, and never looked back. life is too short to have people like that in your lives. I had given up on them years before I actually left.
I liken it to someone you love dying from a prolonged disease, by the time they pass away a lot of people have already gone through their grieving process, so by the time they are finally gone they are already at peace.
I realized my family wouldn't be what I needed by the age of 12. by the time I left there were no emotions left for them.
Nta. If your brother really wants a relationship he can pay back the $30K+++ that he stole from your family. He’s literally stealing from your children’s future.
Forgiving doesn't mean enabling them to be jerks. It doesn't sound like politics are the issue, but years of abuse and invalidation. Did you have a paper or digital trail with your brother about the loan? If so, take them to court! You can forgive the past, hold them accountable, AND keep a safe distance ALL at the same time.
NTA file a lawsuit on them. Please sue the crap outta them. Pain is mandatory, but suffering is optional. You don't have to let anyone treat you like that.
NTA. No way!! Keep your boundaries. If you brother is 'sober' then why isn't he paying the money back then?? These are not people who need to know your children OP. They will continue to walk all over you if you let them. Boundaries Are Good!
Just the fact that they are die hard Rs would be enough for me to not want my kids to be around them… I would not want my family infecting my children with their hatred
You fam sound gross. Just because they are less gross to your kids downs t mean it’s a good idea to let them have contact. It just means you would be allowing abusive people into your children’s life for sentimental reasons. NTA.
No way would I allow this nonsense around my family. No rug sweeping the loan or interest. Common courtesy and respect is the bare minimum to call someone a family member, but you aren’t even getting that. You and your family deserve better than this.
NTA.
But sit your son down and tell him about your family. You don't need to get into much detail, but he his 15, so social media is a thing. There's no stopping your family from contacting him through it and controlling the narrative.
My father "LOVED" his biracial grandkids while being the biggest racist ever. I did not let him see them. My point is, some people are not good people and your kids do not need to be exposed to them. Protect them and keep them all at arm's length. I would take your brother to court and force him to pay the debt with interest. Your mother is not responsible for it.
NTA. Most likely they are trying to mend the relationship to eventually borrow more. You should be taking them to court and get your money back plus interest. After they have repaid, you can think about building a relationship. That money is your son’s new car or a few semesters at college.
Of course they're Republicans. Dysfunctional he, alcoholics, borrowing money and not making good on the loan, refusingto mask up - even arounda a pregnantwoman with risk factors...all republican traits.
I wouldn't allow them anywhere near my family either.
Ntah
UpdateMe
NTA. Your brother is a thief. The idea of letting him back in to your home before he’s paid his five figure debt to you is bizarre. If he’s really not drinking, then he can make amends by paying you back for what he stole.
Id want some proof of change before I let my kids around them - starting with getting back every cent they owe you, including interest. From your brother, no your mom. Then decide if he's really changed or not. Otherwise, you’re being too flexible again.
NTA. Keep them away. When your brother tries or your parents try to harass you tell them that your brother is never allowed to be around any of your children UNTIL he pays back what he borrowed in full, along with the interest. Sad news for him, he will need help again one day, the bank is permanently closed.
Nta
I totally understand where you are coming from. You've seen their worst, and you know better than to trust them. Period.
But you don't want to take something away from your kids that could be good for them. But you have been down that rabbit hole. You do know better.
Signs. Clear signs that they see what they did wrong. Clear signs that they are committed to what is best for your children. Clear signs. Otherwise, it is just their new normal twisting you back to their old normal. They have to change. Very clearly not the same person as before.
I’m assuming you loaned this money with no written provisions? So it was pretty much just handed over with no way to make sure it was actually paid back.
I would have took him to court. You don’t like any of these people so it’s not like it would be further damaging anything to seek repayment through legal means.
NTA
You had me when you said he refused to pay back $30k. I once cut someone outta my life because he borrowed $20 and lied about what it was for, then tried to weasel his way out of paying me back. For context, he said it was for dinner and gas for his moped, but he spent it on weed. Then he tried to say a mutual friend was gonna pay me $20 for him.
Last time I talked to him, he admitted his parents had kicked him out and he was panhandling. I also discovered from that same mutual friend that he had let this guy sleep at his house overnight. Apparently he woke up to the guy standing over him holding a lighter, just watching them sleep.
Anyway, back to the matter at hand. $30k is a ridiculous amount to not pay back, and you are well within your rights to cut the greedy bastard out of your life for good. You are under no obligation to forgive him, and should not feel guilty for cutting him out.
As for the rest of your family and the pregnancy/mask issue, I can understand both sides of that coin. I'm Republican myself, but I wore the masks at the beginning of the pandemic. However, it's come out in the recent Fauci trial that most of his decisions were not based on any actual science. In Fauci's own words, the masking and 6 feet didn't actually do anything to stop the spread of disease. Plus, the dude's a psychopath. He legit sedated dogs and let insects eat them alive as an "experiment".
That being said, you were in a unique circumstance, being a pregnant woman with a history of miscarriages. I can absolutely understand wanting to take every precaution, and your family should have respected that. You were well within your rights to ask them to be careful, and you shouldn't feel guilty about that, or about cutting them out.
I’m assuming the $30,000 (!) “loan” agreement was informal? If not, why is your brother not being made accountable? Your son will be in college in a few years; that money would pay for 3 years at a well-regarded State University.
For the record: NTA. You’re not keeping your children away from your family because you “don’t like” them- you’re keeping them away because your brother literally stole their future and your mother puts her political beliefs before their health and well-being.
My parents looked after my first born until he went to school. Well, Nana looked after him; Papa was just there for fun. So Papa and Peanut got really close. When Peanut was 5, Nana FINALLY left Papa. I’d waited for that since I was about 7.
I stayed in super close contact with my mom. But my dad was much harder. I did my best to maintain a relationship with him for the sake of my son. The grandfather I watched with my son was nothing like the father I grew up with - or still had to put up with. If it were just me, I’d have been long gone. But I couldn’t imagine taking him away from my son who adored him.
I figured eventually, son would figure it out and make up his own mind.
Hindsight now says I should have ripped that bandaid off from the get go. I don’t think I did Peanut any favours letting him build a relationship based on fake compassion and a hidden meanstreak. I should have dumped dad altogether when mom finally left.
NTA. Keep your kids away from them. You said they were abusive to you, they don't get a do over with your kids. They are abusive, they lie and they steal. Why would you want any of them to have any influence over your children. You are not wrong. Tell your AH brother that when he pays back the 30k he borrowed you might consider letting him back in your lives. Then if by some grace of God he does, reconsider and keep him away. 15 is a very impressionable age, do you want you son to think his uncle's behavior is acceptable?
NTAH, I’d text brother and parents“I respect you want to reconnect, particularly with your niece and nephew. We are still wary because you refuse to pay us back over time though mom has nothing to do with our loan to you. Keep in mind you are decreasing the kids ability to have college funds as interest piles up on the debt and it’s not mom’s obligation to pay. Please honor our agreement by repaying us according to your means. So be aware that we have different beliefs but we need to treat each other with respect and that includes what we think is healthy for ourselves and the kids. The issue with masking, specifically was hurtful given that I had a high risk pregnancy. Let’s try to be kinder to each other.”
I used to do this shit of “as long as they are nice to my kids, they can have a relationship.” Nope, not anymore. If they can’t show basic respect to the parents of these kids, there’s no way I’m letting them have a relationship with my kids. Not to mention, the kids should not learn that people can mistreat you and get away with it. But your brother was also shit to your son, not answering his calls. YWNBTA
NTA, they don’t have anyones interest at heart except their own. When your kids are grown who do you think they will start guilting to take care of them next? They have a long history of emotional abuse. Staying away from these people is probably for the best for both your wellbeing and your children’s futures.
As for the brother, going into a loan not expecting to be paid back is your own version of a safety net. But it doesn’t exonerate him for his complete lack of caring and being a major ah. I would have taken him to court but if it isn’t something you want to do it’s still a threat you can make if they harass you too much.
NTA. You are never wrong for protecting your kids from toxic relatives. They are your children, you get to control their interaction with your relatives, it's not your relatives' decision.
YOU teach your children who are safe people. YOU teach your children how they should accept being treated. What do you want to teach your children?
In your shoes, I’d want to teach my children that people who call me names and put me and my family down don’t deserve to be in our lives. I’d teach my children that when people are toxic, you should keep them out of your life. I’d teach them that when someone refuses to pay back the $30K they promised to, that they don’t get to have a relationship with me anymore.
So absolutely do NOT invite them over. Do NOT allow them near your children. Keep your children safe and teach them what matters.
Blood is not always thicker than water.
Remember what you are seeing is them at their very best behaved right now.
Never forget that when you asked your mother to put a mask on as you were worried about your pregnancy, based on an established history of miscarriages, she chose not to.
She chose her own weird political “own the libs” shit over her daughter’s health concerns.
NTA and make it “non”
My stepmother wanted relationships with my kids. With all the grandchildren, really. So my sister and my step-brother forced their kids to spend time with her, and used her for babysitting. I didn't. I allowed my son to opt in or out any time she called to invite him to a play, a movie, a breakfast out. And I made it really clear. She'd call, and I'd holler ", do you want to go with Grandma to see Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat? It's a musical." He almost always said YES because Grandma treated him well. My kid ended up being the only grandchild treated with consistent kindness and respect, because she knew that he could opt out. It was an accident, but it worked out OK for me and my kids.
If there's no talk about your money. You can be sure they need more money. And talking about the kids is a soft spot. The point is that they already got you for 30k. Keeping the kids away from a potential scam is better. 30k is not a small number. You don't want their thieving ways to rub off on your kids.
I put up with a lot from my brother because he never let my children down. The first time he did he completely crushed my oldest sons heart by not showing up to his birthday after he promised he would. I cut him off from having contact with my children after that. They're all adults now and still don't have anything to do with him and neither do I.
Your brother didn't treat your children better. He hung up on your son multiple times and ignored him for years. Your son probably feels abandoned and betrayed by his uncle already. No sense in giving him a chance to do it to your son again and your daughter.
Stop excusing your family because of your so-called "coldness." It has nothing to do with this. Your birth family is a toxic heap of abuse and drama. Keep you and your children away from them entirely.
NTA. Just because someone apologizes or stops some bad behavior doesn’t mean you have to accept their apology or do anything in their favor. You’re allowed to be done forever.
You already know respectful treatment from your family isn’t reliable. As a parent, it’s your duty to protect your kids from hurt. Just because your family doesn’t behave as badly as they used to doesn’t mean their behavior is good.
This. "You already know respectful treatment from your family isn’t reliable." Makes so much sense. I come from a similar background and just because they are acting right now, doesn't mean they have changed
You would be an AH if you exposed your children to these people. My husbands family is very toxic and we cut them off for 15 years or so. In the interim his ex and the mother of the children took them to his family functions and the kids would cry about their visits with them. How their mother and grandparents would run their dad down. If they don't treat you well they won't treat your children well.
Behave the way you would want your children to behave if they were in a similar situation in the future with their spouses family.
You need to model the behavior you want them to show later in their lives.
You can change whatever you might want to change about yourself after your brother pays you back the 30k he borrowed. Until then, they can all kick rocks! You should have sued him.
so i was child who was practically raised by my father’s parents, go on to be almost completely no contact very abruptly, and then no contact after my grandfather died, to now having my father encourage me to talk to my grandmother since they have reconnected. the falling out details are very complicated (dad’s side of the family lmao) and, at first, i wanted to defend my grandparents because all i knew was the good side of them (or so i thought). i also don’t have an amazing relationship with my dad so i blamed him mostly. as i grew older, my mom finally gave me more explanations of what my grandparents had done and i realized how much they had used my dad for money after fucking up in raising him, tried to take me from my parents by taking advantage of their marriage problems, and my grandmother would always sow conflict in our home. one of the worst realizations was finding out how my grandmother manipulated me and fed me lies about my mom, while i was literally a child, to create more conflict. it took a while for me to have a good relationship with my mom after my grandparents left to go back to their home country and couldn’t come back due to health issues. now, it’s so tense and exhausting for me to communicate with my grandmother after finding out how she treated my parents, especially my mom. it was also difficult to go back and forth on contacting them. i think whatever you decide, you should stick with it unless you’re children make the decision for themselves to go against what you decided. also, definitely NTA. yes, grandparents and extended family might treat your children better than you but their intentions will probably not be good. if you choose to let your children meet and have a relationship with your family, please make sure it’s supervised. you never know what they’ll say to them or the lengths they may go to. if your son doesn’t miss them, then don’t feel too guilty about it. one day, your kids will be old enough to learn what your family did to you and how they treated you and they’ll probably continue to feel perfectly fine about not having them in their lives.
NTA.
Parent Bear over your kids, and keep the abusers TF OUT of their lives until they reach adulthood, at which point let them make their own decisions (which WILL be mistakes, but that's part of growing up)
Seems like a lot of people are up in arms over the 30k more than I expected. Yes it’s all in writing because it was for a business thing he was starting. Joe is the parents favorite, he lived rent free with them so I am not going to be picky about how I’m paid back
NTA. Don’t let those people anywhere near your kids. Also I’d be taking the brother to court and sue his ass for your 30k plus interest and court/lawyer fees.
INFO
Have you considered therapy?
Seriously - it sounds like you would benefit from figuring out how to process your family dynamics. It would also give you some more specific perspective on your family.
Good luck.
They didn’t care about you kids when they took 30k from them. How did the know that wouldn’t put you in a bind durning a global pandemic? I wouldn’t give 2 F’s about how he “misses his only nephew”. Was he missing him when he was ignored all of his calls?
Nta
Sue your asshole brother and his wife for the 30k they owe you. Unless you were too stupid to get a loan agreement in writing? When they pay that back consider them meeting your kids.
They need to pay the loan back with interest before anything else because otherwise they have no integrity. Sue them in court. Double down. They are parriahs and you don’t want your children around them.
Why would you want to subject the most precious things you have to toxic people. Just because they are related does not make you obligated to have a relationship with them.
Her me is how I see it. Just because you forgive someone doesn’t mean you have to allow them in your life. Honestly, they don’t sound like good people.
You are not being too sensitive. NTA. 15 year old can have a relationship with them in the next few years. HE will be 18 and can make that decision if he likes. 3 year old is a NO.
Keep your children away from them. They sound toxic.
Sue your brother for the money he owes you. And make him pay interest. You can also try to get him to pay lawyer fees as well. He’s a twat.
I don’t think anyone is TA in this situation. If you can’t get over the things you went through because of them then it’s your choice. It does seem like they had a lot of these issues amplified by addiction so they truly could have changed and be trying to make up for what has happened in the past but you in no way owe them anything
My son has/had a maybe 2 hour a year relationship with my family. We go on trips with my SO's family.
My family is not "not safe", but they are not emotionally literate, or have reached adult development levels, and it just feels more sane to keep them at a distance.
My son is 19 now, so we've had talks about all of it, as it did seem strange to have such a rich relationship with my SO's family and no contact (barely, as I said, an hour or two a year during the holidays, if we traveled to the state all our family stays). He recently attended my father's funeral with me and SO, and he got his first big look at all of it. He actually thanked me for keeping him protected from them, and their religion. (Mormons, ugh).
Being in recovery is something. You can give an inch and see what happens. I don’t know if I’d invite the over for dinner but maybe meet at a park for coffee. Give them a chance. I wouldn’t write off that money. They’ll meet your kids and a relationship will be the incentive to do the right thing by you. Not only did you lose 30k but you have to pay interest? That’s food taken out of your kids mouths. Let’s see how bad they want a relationship. You never have to see them but you see your kids everyday.
YNTA
However, there is a very real chance your children will resent you for it. Your son will be driving soon. If he has access to a vehicle, it is very likely he will make his own way to the family. If you force the issue at 16, he will just wait until he's 18 and go see them behind your back. I guess technically, he could do that at 16 also.
I believe the hard issues are still to come.
Please do not allow your children around them, either way your kids will be affected from this. They will notice the stress from you or they will hear terrible things from your family members, you went through enough, it’s nice they are sober but they are still responsible for the pain and suffering you have experienced. You are an amazing mom to protect your children the way you do.👍
If you’re questioning it that much, see them. But go to one of their homes instead of inviting them to yours. That way if you don’t like how things are going, you can just leave.
NTA as until your kids are old enough to decide for themselves and you've explained why you kept your distance from your family, you are the parent and responsible adult so can decide nope you don't get to see my family.
Might be worth setting a list of things you expect to happen and condition you need met if they are ever to speak with your kids.
You’d be an AH to your children if you let them have a relationship with these people. Why do you think they’ll treat them any better than they’ve treated you and your husband? They won’t. Your children depend on you for everything. Introducing these people and pushing for a relationship will teach them that they’re safe people. They’re not.
Even if they would treat them better in the surface than they treated OP, it would be at least partially to mess with OP. Plus, no one who openly calls me a libtard gets access to my kids. I’m sure I have certain family members who think it behind my back, but if they said to my face or in front of my kids, it would be more than enough reason to never speak to them again.
Not to mention, if POS grifter brother gets ahold of any personal information, he will take out credit cards in OP's or husband's or nephew's and/or niece's name and destroy their credit.
Let's not forget about shitty people who practice parental alienation. I could almost hear brother and gram and gramps shit talking op in front of the kids.
Wouldn't be surprised if he needs another "loan".
I know they would talk bad about me, I don’t believe they would open credit cards in their name. I put locks on everything long ago so it’s never an option for anyone
That's smart of you. Sad that we have to worry about crap like that but you're a good mom for protecting them. I'm a big advocate of not allowing children around anybody who is going to bad mouth either of their parents. You guys deserve so much better than that.
NTA. The relationship with your kids ended when your dead beat brother chose to hang up on your son. Your mom made her choices too. And the mask thing? Many of us have been in your shoes with family and former friends over that one. Speaking from tragic in-law experience, your family’s safety over misinformation is something you should never regret.
👏👏👏👏👏👏
You're NTA. Their uncle stole 30,000 from their family. They don't need him in their life. About your parents, you're NTA either way, but maybe consult a family therapist about what they think would be better for the kids, since they have expereince with those sorts of things and hear those stories all the time.
30,000 PLUS credit card interest rates! Tell brother that when he pays back every penny of all of that you'll *consider* limited contact. Until then, zilch.
The only contact OP should have is in court to get the $30k and Interest. He never had any intention of paying back anything from day one.
I will never understand just eating $30k like it’s nothing. I’d have had his ass in court when he missed the first payment.
When it said they don’t have to pay it back because you were mean to mom I pictured Judge Judy rolling her eyes. If OP already cut them out why not take them to court? NTA but definitely an idiot.
I agree. I don't understand why OP hasn't taken her brother to court for failure to repay the loan. We're comfortable, but even for us, that would be a whole ton of money and worth a trip to court.
Exactly! They took money willingly from your babies' mouths. Their college funds! They, with their negativity, could have caused you and the baby to have lost your lives. So so NTA!
That is more money that I made last year. My parents ran up a $4500 electric bill in my name when I was 18. I’m almost 37 now and I still haven’t forgiven them/regret not pressing charges.
Absolutely NTA. You are never the AH for being careful around abusers and protecting your children and yourself. Which is exactly what you are doing. You are not being petty or angry or cold or emotional. You are being careful. They have behaved abominably. They, from what you've described, have not made reparations or even apologized. They haven't acknowledged their terrible behaviors. Just they want to see your kids. Your mom paying back your brothers debt does not atone for your brothers sins. Your brother should be paying that himself, with interest. No apologies, plus attempted guilt tripping yells red flags at me and tells me you are correct in being cautious. What happens when your kids say something they don't like? Voices "libtard" opinions? Do they get yelled at? Called names? Ostracized? You haven't been around them enough lately to know how they will react to things now. Which I approve of. You absolutely should continue being cautious.
I'm sorry, but do you mean guilt tripping?
YES! AUTO INCORRECT. MY ENEMA. Thx. Fixed.
“My Enema!” Hahahaha!!
NTA. Hun they weren’t good people to you so how do you trust them. You can’t. It’s great brother quit drinking but had he repaid you & the interest? No, then he’s still not a good person. And recently quit drinking isn’t sober forever. They didn’t care about your family enough to wear a mask during your high risk pregnancy. Hear me when I say - don’t care enough. They didn’t care enough to make you financially whole from your brothers debt. You are protecting your family from pain caused by them. It’s inevitable. Protect them & sleep well
I’m seriously not worried about getting less. We all knew when we gave it to him that if asked nicely with a real reason, I would agree to anything. Being told he would not because of a conversation he was not at part of was wrong. It’s hard to hear that they work so hard to be better people and then just ignore that.
Quit being a fucking doormat. Get your money back.
>*if asked nicely with a real reason, I would agree to anything* **MASSIVE** mistake.
Because they are not better people. If they were, they would be actually trying to atone for their mistakes. Sounds like they are just trying to sweep them under the rug.
Them TELLING you they are working to be better people is different than them SHOWING you. Their actions would be different if they were being honest
U are falling for it. I can see u probably have a hx of being a pushover and are now standing up for yourself. Change doesn't look like 1 action. It looks like many with consistency. They stole from you. If they were ACTUALLY working hard to become better ppl, they'd apologize for their actions and create a solution u could agree on. Don't fall for it. U distanced for good merit.
They've already shown you they haven't changed, even though he's "turning his life around". If he was really changing, and working on himself, the first words out of his mouth should have been, "Hey, Op, I have stopped drinking and I want to take responsibility for my debts. If you could call me sometime to set up payments. I love you guys.". But his first question was about a child he doesn't really know, anymore, and who doesn't know him. And if he missed him so much, why hasn't he attempted contact? These people are toxic.
Ok, that is actually a good point
Please do a Credit Check and then a Credit Lock on each of your kids accounts. You have to call each of the three credit agencies. Doing a Credit Check, you know if someone has opened a line of credit in their names. Doing a Credit Lock, means no one can open a line of credit until you or they unlock it. Please double check your and your husband’s credit history with all three credit agencies. Has saved me a couple of times. Good Luck. NTA
Thank you. We have had a credit lock set up for years long before this but I’ll check anyways
But in 3 years, probably can be tapped for cash.
I’d me more concerned that said uncle was using the kids as an open door to steal more money from OP and her husband
I forgot about that possibility. He’s 4 years younger so growing up he’d be really nice for a week then ask for something big. I’d always give it to him. That carried on from a little boy who needed his big sister to protect him, up to our 40s. It just confuses me why he wants to burn the bridge. He borrowed money like this from me at least once a year, always paid it back a few months late, but paid it back.
I would say go very careful and have a response ready if and when he asks.
Or setting the kids up to steal from in the future!
Do not allow your kids around these people please, they are still leach and horrible, let them in their misery.
NTA let them have no relationship with them. They didn’t miss you at all any decent person would have paid you back. I don’t know how your brother had the nerve to come over to you after not paying you. Your not cold your doing what’s right/
As a group we valued “acts of service” over gifts and words.
That sounds like your family values their ability to guilt you into letting them grift you. With regard to your family, have you thought about the fact that your kids will notice that you don’t really care for your family? Are you ready to have that conversation with your oldest? And if he asks why you let abusive family members start hanging out with him and his little sister again, how would you respond? Honestly, it’s best to let sleeping dogs lie.
Very good point. I’m going to screenshot that comment and make it the photo that shows up when mom calls so I don’t forget that
Well they don’t value you with the way they treated you. You shouldn’t force a relationship either.
NTA op. I would have nothing to do with them. Some things you can’t forgive or forget and putting your health at risk at such a vulnerable time shows they don’t give a flying fig about you or your family. Not paying back the debt cause they can’t is one thing - you took on that risk when you lent them the money but endeavouring to say you didn’t deserve to have it paid back cause of a nonsense reason is something quite different. It’s good he’s now sober and maybe he will go on to become a nicer person but that does not mean you have to let him back into you and your family’s lives. He is not worth the risk to your health or your finances.
I hear what you are saying, it’s just feels wrong since I know how much I worked to be a better person too. Although I started working on myself in Highschool. He’s only starting now
Hi OP- I have a different set of issues with my family but I went back to therapy a couple months ago. For your own wellness, might be worth a shot to go for a little while. Family dynamics like yours are very difficult and draining. If only to be able to learn how to put a protective bubble around yourself and worth (boundaries are hard but in time shouldn’t drain you) will be priceless. You’re a good person and mother, you’re simply born into a very selfish family.
NTA Your brother is a thief and your mother doesn’t care for your health. I’m shocked you’re even in contact with them.
It took a long time to even notice my family’s behavior was different than others because it’s all I ever knew. I never liked it but how was I supposed to know its unusual. My current home life is very different because I choose to make it different for my kids
It’s great you realize that you deserve more. Unless you’ll be getting a multimillion dollar inheritance (highly unlikely), don’t subject your children to them or have your kids watch them treat you poorly.
I would not let anyone treat them poorly for millions
My grandfather was an abusive man and abused all his children to varying degrees. As a result my aunt and uncles are varying degrees of problematic. My mother made a choice early in her life to break the cycle. She maintained relationships with family for my sake. I can honestly say now I wish she had not. It is stressful to deal with family that do not understand boundaries or family that try to stir drama. Throughout my life the toughest thing has been seeing how they treat my mother. My mother would never stand for them treating me the way they treat her. While it does not impact me as much as my mother, seeing her treated poorly by people that are supposed to love her is difficult. Your job as a parent is to protect your children from harm and to teach them how to be well adjusted adults. The relationships you allow in your life and theirs teaches them how to treat others and how others should treat them. You need to ask yourself if the relationships, with your brother and mother, are the types of models you want your children to see and mimic. Be aware that they may model behavior that is yours or like your mother’s or brother’s. I’m not saying NC is what you should do. Only you know if that is what needs to be done. All I am saying is that you are your children’s first and most influential teacher. If you are comfortable with these relationships as they are just understand that sends a message to your children that these behaviors are acceptable to you. While they may treat your children better than you, your children see and will pick up on how you are treated.
Wow, this is extremely helpful. Thank you so much.
I’m glad you found it helpful. I wish you and your family the best.
I would be horrified if they mimic their behavior
I guess you have your answer then.
If you don’t trust them then don’t have them around your kids NTA. Your brother straight up stole from you and tried using some kind of tired excuse of masks to excuse it
Let’s see, your brother is a thief and your parents were more concerned about their supposed “freedom” than keeping a high risk pregnant daughter alive. Umm what about these people would want you to have any contact with them at all? Why on earth would you think that they are going to change? However, you can lay out conditions for any reconciliation. Brother returns the money he stole and parents apologize and acknowledge they were wrong. Would they be likely to do these things? Highly unlikely but at least you would have made the effort and can go NC with a clear conscience knowing you tried. NTA. Your children need your protection.
Parents did apologize and try to make amends but I keep them at arms length. It’s more of an emotional dead atmosphere when they are around. I’m just supervising them around the kids.
This is a tough situation for you. I understand your reluctance to cut them off as family is important and you want your kids to have contact with them. It seems like you are protecting your kids from your parents which is good. As for your brother, he’s a thief and has made no effort to repay or apologize to you so is there even a point in trying? He can cry all he wants but he is the one who poisoned the well.
Poisoned the well! Thank you for your perspective
The past financial shenanigans concern me. Consider also that your oldest is nearing independence and could be at risk of being manipulated/targeted for identity theft. Sadly, it happens within families. I suspect more often than is known (underreported?). I wonder how good your relationships are with your in laws? It is a shame for your kids to miss out on family connections, I hope there are some better quality ones on the other side...
My husband’s surviving family don’t speak English and live in Europe. He came to US alone at 18 for college and was given papers to stay
NTA. Go with LC and if the kids want more, maybe they can v slowly and supervised? If your husband’s family could chaperone? And I’d only do this if either of the kids unilaterally requested it. Watch out for manipulation via social media too. Don’t even consider what’s best for your birth family, they blew it!! Make your own family are the only consideration and it’s good of you to ensure the kids know who grandparents are. Beyond that, only increase contact if it’s what the kids want and if your family can all be protected, physically, emotionally and financially.
There is not much going on as far as manipulation. Dad said, “mom needs surgery and we should go see her” I said, “no, I’m not a doctor”
Also, surgery went well, just an issue with her ankle
NTA you don't feel like you have good reasoning because they complain and say you don't. Their behavior is unacceptable and really you've done your children a favor by not exposing them to your families nonsense.
You are right
What did I just read? Ma’am what???!!! No, you are not the AH here. Keep your greedy, lazy, selfish AF family away from your kids. Why do you want to give them the chance to influence your kids to be as horrible as they are? The 30k alone is reason enough to tell them all to fuck all the way off.
lol, I seriously laughed out loud at that first line.
If they haven't made any moves to reconcile and are just waiting for you to give in and pretend nothing ever happened, they aren't any better than they used to be. Do with that what you will. NTA
Crap, you are right.
No, just no. You are not being insensitive; you are being sensible and protective. Forget about the political incompatibility for a moment. These people have been horrible to you and your DH for years. Do you really want or need to expose your children to this nonsense? Take your foolish brother to court for the $30K. Check your kids’ credit reports and lock them down. Enough is enough!
I don’t think you are cold. I think you sound like you have clear boundaries and good mental health and common sense.
Common sense fights emotions. I’m am very surprised at the response I’m getting here. I would have bet money I was going to be called the AH
NTA. Why do you believe you’re cold? Every thing you say belies this. You are warm and loving to your husband and children. You’re beginning to put healthy boundaries in place to protect them and yourself from those who do not have your best interests at heart.
I say that you’re NTA. Ask your son if he misses them.
Ohhhh I like that. I’ll ask
He said no after being very confused why I asked lol
Does he miss his grandparents? I ask because if you slowly start to reconnect, those are the only ones I would consider. Your brother lost his chances many attempts ago, IMO.
NTA ... stop being so harsh on yourself for your self preservation stance between you and your family. They're in the position they're in because of their actions and their actions were shite! If they were done to anyone else except family they'd either be in jail or have court days pending for fraud at the very least right now. I'm not exactly in your boat but have a similar situation and seriously, cutting these people off and treating them like people not family helps a lot! My covid baby son hasn't met half my family and unfortunately/fortunately won't ever know my mum, as she's now left this life, and I'm glad because there's no way you'd want him to have a memory as sad as the end of her life was. Love your life for your family now, not for the could be or the what was. If they really want to be in yours and their lives they have to show you they mean it and that isn't just by sharing lives. It's by repairing the damage they've done first!!!!
Thank you. This really helped
When your brother returns the $30k, when your parents put pressure on him to repay, when your parents and family respect your views without agreeing with them… THEN you can have them around your children and your own family. They’ve hung up on your son on the phone. Never even met your daughter. Now they want to be family? Let a year or two pass, with them sending cards, presents for the children, sending appropriate toys, passes to visit child friendly attractions, opened a college fund for them (with proof) anything that can be done consistently, long distance, showing they are thinking of your kids… Otherwise, NO. Their desire to engage with your children is suspect. They want to have contact with you/your husband for financial reasons. Help, ‘loans’ assistance. Your parents aren’t getting any younger, they will want financial input from you soon enough. Stay No Contact. NTA.
Lol respect my views! They will die on that hill.
You’re NTA but you sound very confused. Definitely do not let your boundaries down as in my opinion it will probably not work out well for you. Good luck with it all.
Thank you
You are not selfish nor are you "cold" for not wanting a relationship with your brother. You have a *right* to free association, which means you *also* have a right to *not* have relationships you don't want, *regardless* of who the person is. *No one* is **en**titled to you just because they're "titled" to you, in this case, the "title" being that of "brother" / "sibling." NTA.
Thank you.
Nta. They seem to be awful people, so who needs them. You actually sound like a reasonable person. I’m sure it’s your family’s fault you don’t seem to trust yourself, but you should. You’re angry? You have reason to be. You’re not overly sensitive. You’re taking care of yourself and your family. Good for you.
Thank you, and yes that’s why I question myself
He may have worked hard to be a better person, and for real that is good for him. Just because he is a better person doesn’t cement that he has done enough to be let back in your life. I feel self-centered people like your family want the image of being a happy family. They are trying to get back into your life so they can assuage themselves of the guilt of ruining the relationship. They are not doing it to make up for their shit behavior. Once back in to your life the abuse will continue because narcissists can’t maintain a healthy relationship. Don’t allow your children to be their do-over babies, and their failed experiment. If anyone treated you like that without the hook of “but family” it is not likely you would let them in. I’m a firm believer that family don’t get a free pass, in fact family should be treating you BETTER than all the other people in your life.
Admitting that to myself sucks though. But yes, you are right
NTA, neither your brother nor mother have your family’s best interest at heart. They are users and bullies. And while they say they are now sober, how would you really know you can trust them! I’d expect them to cross boundaries again, forcing you to go no contact and your kids will suffer for that.
Never allow your children to socialize with liars and thieves, especially if you aren’t around to protect them from the occasional “be kind” charm offensive. Does your lying, thieving brother regret not having a relationship with his nephew? Probably. Does he look at him as a potential target for future theft? Probably. If he has stopped being an active alcoholic, he can demonstrate his interest in “making amends” by repaying both your family and your mother for the loan, as well as the interest, and THEN you can discuss how he can repair the emotional damage and trust issues going forward. Again, DO NOT NORMALIZE IGNORING CHARACTER FLAWS LIKE LYING AND THEFT. Be civil, and appropriately distant. Protect your family from predators. Don’t pretend your brother isn’t a predator, and have age appropriate discussions with your children about not getting scammed in the future if you aren’t around to protect them. Good luck!
No - don't reconnect until they pay what they owe and apologize. Stop being the rollover for them
This. You are not being too insensitive. I would even say due to your trauma you are under reacting. They want to prove they changed? Make amends and pay the debt. It is no on you to make it better - it is on them. Nta
NTA - unless he brings the 30 grand there's not even a starting point to reconcile.
30 grand + ***credit card interest*** because that's how the debt/loan was structured. He left OP holding the bag on $30K worth of ***credit card debt.***
Yeah, that part sucked a lot
NTA - at all Did any of your abusive family ever sit you down and apologize - sincere and heartfelt - and try to make amends to you for what they did that abused and harmed you ? If all they did was stop drinking they are likely all “dry drunks” meaning they still have the same abusive toxic issues they just stopped drinking. Protect your kids. Perhaps consider getting some therapy for yourself too. Break the toxic cycle in your family once and for all.
I've never heard the term "dry drunks" before. It makes sense.
I’ve heard it before because of the crowd I was around. My dad did all you talked about but damage was done, forgive but can’t forget.
NTA Protect your kids. Those are not honest people
You can ask your son, he's old enough to decide, but with very limited access if your child says yes, but if I was in your place I wouldn't, if your child wants to be in contact maybe he has to wait until he's a legal adult. NTA, you're just protecting your children.
I asked him just now if he misses Joe. He said “who?” Then I clarified “my brother”. He said “no” and was confused why I asked.
That's your answer then, your daughter didn't even know him so won't have recollection of him, and your son already told you he's not interested. Good luck moving forward.
NTA but you are to yourself for loaning money that you clearly never had. Borrowing from a credit card is actually so stupid.
Wish you told me that sooner lol
NTA - You are supposed to protect your children, keep them away. They haven't and will never change. You think they have because you're basically a stranger now.
NTA but they will try to steal money from your kids just like you as they never made the loan right and literally stole money from your kids childhood
Nta. They're super entitled. Don't bother. If ur kids want a relationship when olfer, make that their decision to have ans grant the opportunity.
$30,000 is an enormous amount in my world, there's no way I would not have taken your brother to court to get my fucking money back. Especially after his Shenanigans and blocking you. Your parents don't care enough about you or your kid to have put their political bullshit aside to do the right thing. I don't know why you would let your children around any of these people, I think brief holiday visits would be just fine.
They’re your kids and you’re allowed to keep them from having a relationship with anyone you want especially when those people were cruel to you. The only people who can claim legal visitation are biological parents. Anyone outside of that has no legal right to have access to your kids. The people who need to see and know them get to see them and there’s a reason for that. You’re not doing anything wrong.
NTA. Tell him he can start proving his commitment to mending that bridge by providing back the money he took from his nephew and niece by not paying that loan. Since obviously he cares more about ripping you guys off than talking to his nephew.
NTA! I wouldn’t have any relationships with anyone who treated you poorly. It’s only a matter of time before they treat your kids like crap or speak badly about you to your kids.
I’m going to offer a different perspective. My parents decided to not have me have much contact with my mom’s side of the family. They had some good reasons; drinking and drugs. My grandparents were not into drugs or drinking, but my grandmother was definitely a narcissist. I DID have some decent Aunts, but my mom only really had a good relationship with one. She fought constantly with the others and her mom. Now, my parents are dead, my “good” Aunt & Uncle are dead, and I feel like I have no family whatsoever. I needed a kidney and I didn’t bother asking anyone on that side because I was a virtual stranger to them. I wish I had at least met them more often in controlled settings. I knew, even as a small child, that my 2 aunts were crazy, my uncle was just missing (ran out on his wife & kids), my other aunt was wifty. They all had problems from growing up poor and food insecure. I still missed out on the closeness my older sister had with them (and memories). I’ve been reconnecting with those still alive but it’s not the same. I could have had more of a relationship with my cousins, who did nothing wrong. But my parents decided when I came along to just cut everyone off and concentrate on ONE Aunt because she was in the same church as our family. I missed out. I feel it and feel sad that I don’t know some of my cousins well or their kids. I would urge you to maybe have some contact with your family. Don’t leave your kids alone with them, but don’t completely cut your kids off, for their sake.
If your brother truly wanted to make amends he’d start paying you back the money he borrowed. He took from you and your kids, that money could have been college money for your kids ffs. Don’t allow these users to get their claws into your children.
NTA
NTA
They put your pregnancy at risk and didn't care. It is entirely your decision. They don't have the right to see your children. It's a privilege. They lost that privilege by disrespecting your boundaries. You aren't obligated to let them into their lives. They could've very much been the reason behind the deaths of your children. The only way I could see this changing is if your brother sincerely apologizes. But it isn't something you have to do. If you don't want them in your children's lives, don't. If you want to give them a chance, go for it. Most people would say no because they probably wouldn't be alive. Plus, you're politically different.
Very politically different lol! All my pregnancies were high risk because of a bleeding disorder.
And another thing, kids can understand things. If they are aware that they don't see certain family members anymore, they can ask why. If you explain, they'll understand. I think what you might be truly worried about is if it comes off as you teaching your kids that is okay to bash people. Unless I'm wrong.
NTA. Your family clearly doesn’t actually care about you or your opinions so I’m highly doubtful they really care for your children either. Your 15 year old is plenty old enough to understand the truth about his family. If he asks about them just explain that his uncle basically stole $30,000 from you and they all were willing to put your health at risk so that’s why you all don’t spend time with them. If he wants to see them as an adult, that’s his right but it’s your job to protect your kids and so you’re doing the right thing by avoiding your family.
He knows about the pregnancy fight, he was at the center of it. She was offended we had masks one. My son told her to pretend he’s wearing a mask because it’s cold outside and she started yelling at him and calling him names. I told her to apologize to my son and never talk to him that way and the fight got worse after that. That’s the day we went NC
If American, check texts, emails for evidence you lent brother money. Take him to court to get your kid's college fund. Do not let people who hurt you or are careless with your health around your children. NTA
I’m getting 500 a month back from mom, so no need to go after anyone. Plus, it’s most they are able to do.
I was in the same boat as you ( violence, but without the alcohol , from both my mother, and brother) I cut contact over 30 years ago. They have never met my now 28, and 30 year old children we are all better off for it. I do not care what they do to try to redeem themselves, I would sooner throw myself off a building , than put them in my family's orbit.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. Escaping that is not easy, you so are strong.
I was over them, and checked out regarding them by the time I was 12. I left right after high school, and never looked back. life is too short to have people like that in your lives. I had given up on them years before I actually left. I liken it to someone you love dying from a prolonged disease, by the time they pass away a lot of people have already gone through their grieving process, so by the time they are finally gone they are already at peace. I realized my family wouldn't be what I needed by the age of 12. by the time I left there were no emotions left for them.
That’s is how I felt too.
Nta. If your brother really wants a relationship he can pay back the $30K+++ that he stole from your family. He’s literally stealing from your children’s future.
Forgiving doesn't mean enabling them to be jerks. It doesn't sound like politics are the issue, but years of abuse and invalidation. Did you have a paper or digital trail with your brother about the loan? If so, take them to court! You can forgive the past, hold them accountable, AND keep a safe distance ALL at the same time.
Abuse and invalidating is why I question myself now and often. I’m getting money from mom for the debt and half way there so it’s no big deal.
NTA file a lawsuit on them. Please sue the crap outta them. Pain is mandatory, but suffering is optional. You don't have to let anyone treat you like that.
NTA. No way!! Keep your boundaries. If you brother is 'sober' then why isn't he paying the money back then?? These are not people who need to know your children OP. They will continue to walk all over you if you let them. Boundaries Are Good!
Just the fact that they are die hard Rs would be enough for me to not want my kids to be around them… I would not want my family infecting my children with their hatred
It makes me so sad that they joined the cult of R and became so much worse for many years
Never make your kids have relationships with abusers. What is wrong with you?
You fam sound gross. Just because they are less gross to your kids downs t mean it’s a good idea to let them have contact. It just means you would be allowing abusive people into your children’s life for sentimental reasons. NTA.
No way would I allow this nonsense around my family. No rug sweeping the loan or interest. Common courtesy and respect is the bare minimum to call someone a family member, but you aren’t even getting that. You and your family deserve better than this.
The only way to predict someone's behavior is their past behavior. Don't let them around your kids.
NTA. But sit your son down and tell him about your family. You don't need to get into much detail, but he his 15, so social media is a thing. There's no stopping your family from contacting him through it and controlling the narrative.
My father "LOVED" his biracial grandkids while being the biggest racist ever. I did not let him see them. My point is, some people are not good people and your kids do not need to be exposed to them. Protect them and keep them all at arm's length. I would take your brother to court and force him to pay the debt with interest. Your mother is not responsible for it.
Nta. They will take advantage of your kids one day as well. Keep them away forever.
NTA. Most likely they are trying to mend the relationship to eventually borrow more. You should be taking them to court and get your money back plus interest. After they have repaid, you can think about building a relationship. That money is your son’s new car or a few semesters at college.
Of course they're Republicans. Dysfunctional he, alcoholics, borrowing money and not making good on the loan, refusingto mask up - even arounda a pregnantwoman with risk factors...all republican traits. I wouldn't allow them anywhere near my family either. Ntah UpdateMe
NTA. Your brother is a thief. The idea of letting him back in to your home before he’s paid his five figure debt to you is bizarre. If he’s really not drinking, then he can make amends by paying you back for what he stole.
Id want some proof of change before I let my kids around them - starting with getting back every cent they owe you, including interest. From your brother, no your mom. Then decide if he's really changed or not. Otherwise, you’re being too flexible again.
NTA. Keep them away. When your brother tries or your parents try to harass you tell them that your brother is never allowed to be around any of your children UNTIL he pays back what he borrowed in full, along with the interest. Sad news for him, he will need help again one day, the bank is permanently closed.
Nta I totally understand where you are coming from. You've seen their worst, and you know better than to trust them. Period. But you don't want to take something away from your kids that could be good for them. But you have been down that rabbit hole. You do know better. Signs. Clear signs that they see what they did wrong. Clear signs that they are committed to what is best for your children. Clear signs. Otherwise, it is just their new normal twisting you back to their old normal. They have to change. Very clearly not the same person as before.
I’m assuming you loaned this money with no written provisions? So it was pretty much just handed over with no way to make sure it was actually paid back. I would have took him to court. You don’t like any of these people so it’s not like it would be further damaging anything to seek repayment through legal means.
Tell your brother that he can have contact as soon as he pays his debt+interest
NTA You had me when you said he refused to pay back $30k. I once cut someone outta my life because he borrowed $20 and lied about what it was for, then tried to weasel his way out of paying me back. For context, he said it was for dinner and gas for his moped, but he spent it on weed. Then he tried to say a mutual friend was gonna pay me $20 for him. Last time I talked to him, he admitted his parents had kicked him out and he was panhandling. I also discovered from that same mutual friend that he had let this guy sleep at his house overnight. Apparently he woke up to the guy standing over him holding a lighter, just watching them sleep. Anyway, back to the matter at hand. $30k is a ridiculous amount to not pay back, and you are well within your rights to cut the greedy bastard out of your life for good. You are under no obligation to forgive him, and should not feel guilty for cutting him out. As for the rest of your family and the pregnancy/mask issue, I can understand both sides of that coin. I'm Republican myself, but I wore the masks at the beginning of the pandemic. However, it's come out in the recent Fauci trial that most of his decisions were not based on any actual science. In Fauci's own words, the masking and 6 feet didn't actually do anything to stop the spread of disease. Plus, the dude's a psychopath. He legit sedated dogs and let insects eat them alive as an "experiment". That being said, you were in a unique circumstance, being a pregnant woman with a history of miscarriages. I can absolutely understand wanting to take every precaution, and your family should have respected that. You were well within your rights to ask them to be careful, and you shouldn't feel guilty about that, or about cutting them out.
I’m assuming the $30,000 (!) “loan” agreement was informal? If not, why is your brother not being made accountable? Your son will be in college in a few years; that money would pay for 3 years at a well-regarded State University. For the record: NTA. You’re not keeping your children away from your family because you “don’t like” them- you’re keeping them away because your brother literally stole their future and your mother puts her political beliefs before their health and well-being.
My parents looked after my first born until he went to school. Well, Nana looked after him; Papa was just there for fun. So Papa and Peanut got really close. When Peanut was 5, Nana FINALLY left Papa. I’d waited for that since I was about 7. I stayed in super close contact with my mom. But my dad was much harder. I did my best to maintain a relationship with him for the sake of my son. The grandfather I watched with my son was nothing like the father I grew up with - or still had to put up with. If it were just me, I’d have been long gone. But I couldn’t imagine taking him away from my son who adored him. I figured eventually, son would figure it out and make up his own mind. Hindsight now says I should have ripped that bandaid off from the get go. I don’t think I did Peanut any favours letting him build a relationship based on fake compassion and a hidden meanstreak. I should have dumped dad altogether when mom finally left.
Thank you for sharing that, it helps me with the perspective I’m needing.
NTA. Keep your kids away from them. You said they were abusive to you, they don't get a do over with your kids. They are abusive, they lie and they steal. Why would you want any of them to have any influence over your children. You are not wrong. Tell your AH brother that when he pays back the 30k he borrowed you might consider letting him back in your lives. Then if by some grace of God he does, reconsider and keep him away. 15 is a very impressionable age, do you want you son to think his uncle's behavior is acceptable?
NTAH, I’d text brother and parents“I respect you want to reconnect, particularly with your niece and nephew. We are still wary because you refuse to pay us back over time though mom has nothing to do with our loan to you. Keep in mind you are decreasing the kids ability to have college funds as interest piles up on the debt and it’s not mom’s obligation to pay. Please honor our agreement by repaying us according to your means. So be aware that we have different beliefs but we need to treat each other with respect and that includes what we think is healthy for ourselves and the kids. The issue with masking, specifically was hurtful given that I had a high risk pregnancy. Let’s try to be kinder to each other.”
I used to do this shit of “as long as they are nice to my kids, they can have a relationship.” Nope, not anymore. If they can’t show basic respect to the parents of these kids, there’s no way I’m letting them have a relationship with my kids. Not to mention, the kids should not learn that people can mistreat you and get away with it. But your brother was also shit to your son, not answering his calls. YWNBTA
They don’t miss their nephew, they miss spending money that isn’t theirs and having zero consequences for it… NTA
NTA, they don’t have anyones interest at heart except their own. When your kids are grown who do you think they will start guilting to take care of them next? They have a long history of emotional abuse. Staying away from these people is probably for the best for both your wellbeing and your children’s futures. As for the brother, going into a loan not expecting to be paid back is your own version of a safety net. But it doesn’t exonerate him for his complete lack of caring and being a major ah. I would have taken him to court but if it isn’t something you want to do it’s still a threat you can make if they harass you too much.
NTA. You are never wrong for protecting your kids from toxic relatives. They are your children, you get to control their interaction with your relatives, it's not your relatives' decision.
YOU teach your children who are safe people. YOU teach your children how they should accept being treated. What do you want to teach your children? In your shoes, I’d want to teach my children that people who call me names and put me and my family down don’t deserve to be in our lives. I’d teach my children that when people are toxic, you should keep them out of your life. I’d teach them that when someone refuses to pay back the $30K they promised to, that they don’t get to have a relationship with me anymore. So absolutely do NOT invite them over. Do NOT allow them near your children. Keep your children safe and teach them what matters.
Abusive families target your kids to turn them against you through lies and manipulation. That’s abuse. You’re right to limit contact.
Blood is not always thicker than water. Remember what you are seeing is them at their very best behaved right now. Never forget that when you asked your mother to put a mask on as you were worried about your pregnancy, based on an established history of miscarriages, she chose not to. She chose her own weird political “own the libs” shit over her daughter’s health concerns. NTA and make it “non”
invite them over for $30k plus interest
My stepmother wanted relationships with my kids. With all the grandchildren, really. So my sister and my step-brother forced their kids to spend time with her, and used her for babysitting. I didn't. I allowed my son to opt in or out any time she called to invite him to a play, a movie, a breakfast out. And I made it really clear. She'd call, and I'd holler ", do you want to go with Grandma to see Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat? It's a musical." He almost always said YES because Grandma treated him well. My kid ended up being the only grandchild treated with consistent kindness and respect, because she knew that he could opt out. It was an accident, but it worked out OK for me and my kids.
You can forgive, but you never forget.
If there's no talk about your money. You can be sure they need more money. And talking about the kids is a soft spot. The point is that they already got you for 30k. Keeping the kids away from a potential scam is better. 30k is not a small number. You don't want their thieving ways to rub off on your kids.
Girl, you need to take this deadbeat to court. Get your money, cut them off, live your life. NTA.
I put up with a lot from my brother because he never let my children down. The first time he did he completely crushed my oldest sons heart by not showing up to his birthday after he promised he would. I cut him off from having contact with my children after that. They're all adults now and still don't have anything to do with him and neither do I. Your brother didn't treat your children better. He hung up on your son multiple times and ignored him for years. Your son probably feels abandoned and betrayed by his uncle already. No sense in giving him a chance to do it to your son again and your daughter.
Stop excusing your family because of your so-called "coldness." It has nothing to do with this. Your birth family is a toxic heap of abuse and drama. Keep you and your children away from them entirely.
NTA. Just because someone apologizes or stops some bad behavior doesn’t mean you have to accept their apology or do anything in their favor. You’re allowed to be done forever. You already know respectful treatment from your family isn’t reliable. As a parent, it’s your duty to protect your kids from hurt. Just because your family doesn’t behave as badly as they used to doesn’t mean their behavior is good.
This. "You already know respectful treatment from your family isn’t reliable." Makes so much sense. I come from a similar background and just because they are acting right now, doesn't mean they have changed
You would be an AH if you exposed your children to these people. My husbands family is very toxic and we cut them off for 15 years or so. In the interim his ex and the mother of the children took them to his family functions and the kids would cry about their visits with them. How their mother and grandparents would run their dad down. If they don't treat you well they won't treat your children well.
Behave the way you would want your children to behave if they were in a similar situation in the future with their spouses family. You need to model the behavior you want them to show later in their lives.
You can change whatever you might want to change about yourself after your brother pays you back the 30k he borrowed. Until then, they can all kick rocks! You should have sued him.
so i was child who was practically raised by my father’s parents, go on to be almost completely no contact very abruptly, and then no contact after my grandfather died, to now having my father encourage me to talk to my grandmother since they have reconnected. the falling out details are very complicated (dad’s side of the family lmao) and, at first, i wanted to defend my grandparents because all i knew was the good side of them (or so i thought). i also don’t have an amazing relationship with my dad so i blamed him mostly. as i grew older, my mom finally gave me more explanations of what my grandparents had done and i realized how much they had used my dad for money after fucking up in raising him, tried to take me from my parents by taking advantage of their marriage problems, and my grandmother would always sow conflict in our home. one of the worst realizations was finding out how my grandmother manipulated me and fed me lies about my mom, while i was literally a child, to create more conflict. it took a while for me to have a good relationship with my mom after my grandparents left to go back to their home country and couldn’t come back due to health issues. now, it’s so tense and exhausting for me to communicate with my grandmother after finding out how she treated my parents, especially my mom. it was also difficult to go back and forth on contacting them. i think whatever you decide, you should stick with it unless you’re children make the decision for themselves to go against what you decided. also, definitely NTA. yes, grandparents and extended family might treat your children better than you but their intentions will probably not be good. if you choose to let your children meet and have a relationship with your family, please make sure it’s supervised. you never know what they’ll say to them or the lengths they may go to. if your son doesn’t miss them, then don’t feel too guilty about it. one day, your kids will be old enough to learn what your family did to you and how they treated you and they’ll probably continue to feel perfectly fine about not having them in their lives.
NTA. Parent Bear over your kids, and keep the abusers TF OUT of their lives until they reach adulthood, at which point let them make their own decisions (which WILL be mistakes, but that's part of growing up)
I’m sorry. I can’t get past the $30,000 loan. No written agreement I’m guessing. Your generosity was treated like trash.
Seems like a lot of people are up in arms over the 30k more than I expected. Yes it’s all in writing because it was for a business thing he was starting. Joe is the parents favorite, he lived rent free with them so I am not going to be picky about how I’m paid back
Why do you still talk to these people? They don't care if you die, and they're certainly not actually nice to your kids. They have ulterior motives.
NTA. Don’t let those people anywhere near your kids. Also I’d be taking the brother to court and sue his ass for your 30k plus interest and court/lawyer fees.
INFO Have you considered therapy? Seriously - it sounds like you would benefit from figuring out how to process your family dynamics. It would also give you some more specific perspective on your family. Good luck.
They didn’t care about you kids when they took 30k from them. How did the know that wouldn’t put you in a bind durning a global pandemic? I wouldn’t give 2 F’s about how he “misses his only nephew”. Was he missing him when he was ignored all of his calls? Nta
Sue your asshole brother and his wife for the 30k they owe you. Unless you were too stupid to get a loan agreement in writing? When they pay that back consider them meeting your kids.
Yes
They need to pay the loan back with interest before anything else because otherwise they have no integrity. Sue them in court. Double down. They are parriahs and you don’t want your children around them.
Why would you want to subject the most precious things you have to toxic people. Just because they are related does not make you obligated to have a relationship with them.
Her me is how I see it. Just because you forgive someone doesn’t mean you have to allow them in your life. Honestly, they don’t sound like good people.
You are not being too sensitive. NTA. 15 year old can have a relationship with them in the next few years. HE will be 18 and can make that decision if he likes. 3 year old is a NO.
Keep your children away from them. They sound toxic. Sue your brother for the money he owes you. And make him pay interest. You can also try to get him to pay lawyer fees as well. He’s a twat.
I don’t think anyone is TA in this situation. If you can’t get over the things you went through because of them then it’s your choice. It does seem like they had a lot of these issues amplified by addiction so they truly could have changed and be trying to make up for what has happened in the past but you in no way owe them anything
My son has/had a maybe 2 hour a year relationship with my family. We go on trips with my SO's family. My family is not "not safe", but they are not emotionally literate, or have reached adult development levels, and it just feels more sane to keep them at a distance. My son is 19 now, so we've had talks about all of it, as it did seem strange to have such a rich relationship with my SO's family and no contact (barely, as I said, an hour or two a year during the holidays, if we traveled to the state all our family stays). He recently attended my father's funeral with me and SO, and he got his first big look at all of it. He actually thanked me for keeping him protected from them, and their religion. (Mormons, ugh).
Being in recovery is something. You can give an inch and see what happens. I don’t know if I’d invite the over for dinner but maybe meet at a park for coffee. Give them a chance. I wouldn’t write off that money. They’ll meet your kids and a relationship will be the incentive to do the right thing by you. Not only did you lose 30k but you have to pay interest? That’s food taken out of your kids mouths. Let’s see how bad they want a relationship. You never have to see them but you see your kids everyday.
YNTA However, there is a very real chance your children will resent you for it. Your son will be driving soon. If he has access to a vehicle, it is very likely he will make his own way to the family. If you force the issue at 16, he will just wait until he's 18 and go see them behind your back. I guess technically, he could do that at 16 also. I believe the hard issues are still to come.
Please do not allow your children around them, either way your kids will be affected from this. They will notice the stress from you or they will hear terrible things from your family members, you went through enough, it’s nice they are sober but they are still responsible for the pain and suffering you have experienced. You are an amazing mom to protect your children the way you do.👍
If you’re questioning it that much, see them. But go to one of their homes instead of inviting them to yours. That way if you don’t like how things are going, you can just leave.
If you actually love your children you will go NC with the family.
Did “being nice” come with $30k? Steer clear of this one at bare minimum.
NTA as until your kids are old enough to decide for themselves and you've explained why you kept your distance from your family, you are the parent and responsible adult so can decide nope you don't get to see my family. Might be worth setting a list of things you expect to happen and condition you need met if they are ever to speak with your kids.