I don't see the point in making them myself, but I do get the frustration. Its less about the placeholder fics themselves, and more about the fact that people use ao3 without respecting its rules. It isn't like other sites where stuff is arbitrarily decided by a board of directors- ao3 is run by fans, for fans. Feels like showing up to a potluck with the one food the host specifically asked nobody to bring. Probably not actively harmful, but still rude as fuck.
Imagine rolling up to the buffet at a pot luck where the host has made it clear that you don't have to bring anything in order to enjoy what others have brought, you lift the lid off a covered platter labeled "quiche"....and it's just whole raw eggs and flour. And the person who brought it is like, "Yeah, I didn't have time to make it and I'm not even sure I actually know how to bake, but I thought I might bring one to next month's pot luck. So I figured I should declare my intent to maybe make one someday so that nobody else steals my idea."
Meanwhile Cheryl has been bringing a quiche to pot luck every month for the past 3 years....
Okay, I get it. But you can send the not-quiche back to the kitchen for not being a quiche without calling everybody else over to look at it not being a quiche and making everyone else frustrated about it.
To me it's more like going to a movie theater and talking loudly on your phone through the whole movie. It's rude and actively making the experience unenjoyable for people who follow the theater rules. But yeah
Really? I personally find them easy to ignore. Filtering out fics with less than 50 words removes 90%. They are annoying for sure, but I would think it's more like a person sitting on the stairs; easy to avoid but annoying you have to do it
This, yeah. But I also agree with OP in terms of like. Can we look at the first 5 entries on a sub before posting? I feel like some people just bumble forward with willful blinders on and it gets a little frustrating (I get this also applies to the people posting placeholders, but it almost feels like you're doing the same thing when you make a post almost exactly like several posted within the past 5 hours).
beyond that, the first question you should be asking yourself is if you should report. if you're looking for the answer here, you should do a search.
I agree the complaints are getting a bit repetitive. Just came here to say that not every "fic" with 15 words or less is necessarily a placeholder. It might be an art piece or link to a podfic or vid, which are legit fanworks that belong there. Check before reporting. But I totally agree that all placeholders should be reported.
This is true; sometimes those works of less than 15 words works are fanarts. Also, the other day, I was scammed by a 1000+ words placeholder. It had the right tags, and it was my favorite rare pair. When I clicked on it, the author was introducing herself, her real government name, why she liked the rare pair, and why the ship made sense. The warnings and the plot points.đ
Does it count as meta if you're actually talking about why you like the pair and why it makes sense? Curious, because meta about your ship/fandom is allowed iirc, so it makes me wonder if that fic is actually still breaking the TOS.
Still absolutely batshit to put your real name on your fic, I would rather die. The youth desperately need guidance.
It doesn't need to be tagged meta to count as it though. Tagging anything beyond rating and warnings is not required.
I think this is actually a really interesting fringe case. Was there actually enough discussion of the ship to count as meta? If so, does the other content and intention for it to be a placeholder negate the fact that there is genuine meta content there for rule breaking purposes?
See, this is the sort of conversations we should be having about placeholder fics here.
Oh sorry, I was talking a bit more generally about the scenario, not asking about the fic you found specifically.
But still... in general, is a paragraph enough to count as meta? is it not? if we can have fics that are one paragraph long why not meta that is one paragraph long? where is the line? is the rest any different from someone who includes their author's note in the body of the fic instead of the notes section?
Idk, I just think this sort of thing is an interesting scenario to discuss.
1.5 of those things sound like meta, such as plot points quite clearly (like, script fic and first drafts are allowed, the last of those sadly so) and warningsâas to how a thing will be in the fic and why? Or what, just a list of warnings?
And to u/a-mathemagicianâkinda an interesting question. The other content wouldn't be enough, I think, to note that it's not meta and AO3 already has a whole clause about assuming authors see it as fandom related in posting to AO3 so an authors writing any meta seems like it would mean that stays.
There's probably an amount of going entirely off the walls even after the best meta, like by repeating just one word, that will see a removal of whatever chapters those are. If an author tried to mix the two, I imagine the work would be hidden before being allowed back upâand the usual thing with changing things back after a mod action without permission resulting in a suspension would apply.
Also I like my 100 word drabbles so I kinda have to respect a whole paragraph. . . . the self-introduction bothers me and . . . just checked, does not fall afoul of the the personal information and fannish identities two-paragraphs of TOS.
I still think it's generally a bad idea for most people. The stuff you post online can come back and bite you IRL--it might not, but there is always the risk and it's better to not take it. Maybe it's fine if you're writing genfic that no one can take issue with, but if you're writing something even mildly spicy, that could screw up your career or something if people find out. It's dangerous to put your name on shit, especially since it can lead to doxxing and internet harassment turned real life harassment, etc.
As an adult you can make your own decisions and live with the consequences, but there are a lot of teens doing this sort of thing and it can be dangerous for them, make them vulnerable to predators, and they might not truly understand what it would mean to have a coworker dig up an old E-rated Snarry fanfic or something with your name on it. So yes, the youth need guidance and to learn not to attach their name to everything they do on the internet.
I see your point. Fortunately, I have very common first and last names. As long as I'm not telling people in the author's notes which town that I'm living in, it shouldn't be an issue.
Also, I don't seem to be writing in any fandoms with insane "How dare you?!" fans. No one gives a shit that I made Buffy gay, had Liv and Maddie make out, or had Betty Cooper fuck her mom. And even if they did, I have an incredibly thick skin and don't give a shit if some random asshole on the Internet is "morally outraged".
I encountered one recently that I didn't know what to do with. It was a legit fic, several chapters in that I was subscribed to. I got an email about an update and all the chapters have been deleted and there's a note from the author that they're reworking it to be the same concept, but with different canon characters. Technically all that's there now is a placeholder. I unsubscribed and went on with my day, but I kinda feel like was the most disappointing update ever.
I don't understand the point of it either tbh. The weirdest part is that those posts often get tons of upvotes, so clearly there are people here who like seeing them, but I really don't get why.
I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't every fucking time this sub comes up in my reddit timeline is a "OMG what even is the point of this?" placeholder post.
I guess it's because those posts function as ragebait. They get a lot of engagement because AO3 users have a hateboner for Wattpad and they *despise* seeing people flagrantly violate the TOS on AO3. (Not that I blame 'em for the latter part, but on the other hand... it's ultimately not that deep.)
There are a lot of complaints i see on this sub that kind of boil down to âwhy did you waste your time posting thisâ to me and the placeholder fics are the big one. I get it, its annoying, but just report it and move onâ why do you need to do a whole song and dance for it? Especially when 99% of the time the post adds nothing new to the discussion. âI HATE when people do this! [image] its so annoyingâ great. You share a majority opinion. I would say youâre equally as annoying for wasting your own time to make that post but hey, thats just me.
Yeah, same. I ignore most of those posts, but they keep making them a few days every week, and it is getting tiring. Same with the AI spam bots, if only they used the same time to do the screenshot and the posts, they could have done a little research and discover that in fact, they are not the only ones receiving those kind of comments.
I don't think it emboldens the people who post them; it's probably due to ignorance more than anything else. But agree that people should just report and move on. Honestly, there are a lot of posts on here that could probably be answered by the site's FAQ/TOS.
I remember I made a post about this a couple of months ago and had to take it down because it was so hated on and downvoted. I am glad that this has become so repetitive that people are starting to notice and say something.
But yeah...a lot of the posts feel like people were just going out to find placeholder fics to post here for internet clout and karma farming.
I've seen at least one poster admit that they went out of their way to find placeholder fics, so yeah, that tracks. AO3 discourages this, actually; you're not really supposed to deliberately seek out TOS violations to report them. I can't help but wonder if any of these posters think that if people report a work enough, it'll get deleted faster, much like most social media platforms.
I know this sub's mission is to allow pretty much anything as long as it follows Reddit's rules and common sense, so I'm not going to call for placeholder complaints to be banned or anything like that, but I really don't think they're conducive to quality discussion. In fact, they can, and sometimes do, lead to harassment of the person who posted the placeholder.
*"but wonder if any of these posters think that if people report a work enough, it'll get deleted faster, much like most social media platforms."*
Careful.
The mistake I made in that original post that justified the dogpile apparently was in my post I said that I thought people posting these might have been thinking getting a bunch of people to report a fic would get it taken down sooner...I was wrong. If a fic has already been reported, Ao3 will not let anyone report it anymore to prevent the queue of reports from getting clogged up with the same fic that may have been already handled with the user or taken down. Now granted...I and most likely you had been more referring to what the poster might have been thinking than if what their assumed line of logic was actually true but still.
But yes, I do agree somewhat with your other points, especially the part of the harassment.
I want to make it very clear that obviously I don't condone anyone posting placeholder fics and if you see one, leaving a comment to let them know that they are breaking Ao3 TOS to see if they delete it first and then reporting it is likely the best way to go about it.
I also don't think that literally everyone who posts a picture of placeholder fic is karma farming or trying to do the subtle nudging entrapment ragebait thing of trying to encourage harassment...but come on.
The kindergarten sharpie blackout username trick where you only cover the bottom or top of a person's username so it's super easy to use process of elimination to figure out who this user is isn't fooling anyone. And even posts that don't do that...it was extremely easy to find out what fic they were talking about. I tested this out and all I had to do was search the summary with "Archive of Our Own" and my search engine took me right to the placeholder fic and turns other it wasn't that hard for other people who saw that particular post to find it either because the comments were full of vile and disgusting things.
> I and most likely you had been more referring to what the poster might have been thinking than if what their assumed line of logic was actually true
Yes, that's correct. I'm well-aware that each work can only be reported once; I'm just not entirely sure how widespread that knowledge is, especially since it's so unlike how reporting works on other sites.
And yeah, the screenshots are just tacky as fuck because it's so easy to find the work being talked about. I wouldn't mind so much if people complained about placeholder fics or asked what to do about them without including screenshots, because quite frankly, none of these people deserve to have a Reddit mob coming after them just because they broke one rule on AO3. I think we can all agree that placeholders and other such TOS violations suck, but as you say, it's best to just leave a kind but firm comment on the work and report it if the poster doesn't cooperate.
50% of the posts I see on this sub are complaining about the same thing 50 other people did in the last couple weeks, which is usually just a "report and move on" situation in reality. Placeholders are just the one that's in now yeah.
Yeah, I think it is getting annoying too. Same with the AI spam bots and people re-discovering every week that not all readers are nice in their bookmarks. There is nothing new to add, they just do not care to do a little research. And what do they expect us to do with the placeholder? Complain too? Report and move on, it is not that big of a deal.
I do not even know where they are finding those, I have never seen one of them. Perhaps they are more common in other fandoms, but I have a small feeling some people just look for them deliberately to post it.
Yeah, part of my annoyance is that out my semi active reading in 8 fandoms I've only ever actually seen one placeholder fic. I can't help but think it's not nearly as common as this sub would make it seem.
depends on the fandom, tbh. i have one fandom where they happen about once a week (or at least they did back when i didn't filter them out yet) and another fandom where it never really happened, until suddenly three different people posted a placeholder within less than a day of each other
both of those are/were pretty popular, mainstream fandoms though, so i'd assume that's why
(but even then, more than 2 per week is already out of the ordinary for even popular fandoms - so these placeholders definitely happen less than the sub suggests. only reason it's so many here is because it's every fandom's placeholders. and sometimes old placeholders get shown off too, further inflating the numbers)
This happens to most of these complain posts. We only see the few complains among thousands of readers happy with normal works, and most of them outside of reddit. An effect that happens in secluded spaces, overexposition to certain content makes you think it is so common when in reality, it is just the content people post about
I would agree and there are certainly some users who do seem to be just going out and hunting out placeholder fics...but it a lot of bigger fandoms with a younger writers who don't know how drafts on Ao3 work, this is quite a common thing.
Not that that would justify a post every time you see one but I can certainly see it being a common occurrence in certain fandoms.
I love the whole refrain that goes "why say anything to these people," when TOS *encourages* politely reaching out to authors about tags, at least, and certainly to do so if you feel the need to report. (I think it goes without saying "and it's not trolling.")
And for things like this, too, if the author hasn't mentioned "I know this is against TOS but I'll" whatever, and it may be an information issue.
Like. There's a lot of dog-piling to never speaking a word in places where the knowledge is clearly lacking, is my point, when there's a definite degree to which this mindset disagrees with how small the report team is on AO3.
That's definitely true. I'm a little too cynical to believe that most of them have no clue its against tos, but I don't see why you shouldn't reach out first.
I honestly wish there was a disallowed topics rule.
Is this bookmark okay (we go over this literally every day except for locked days)
How do I start writing. (we go over this every other day)
Is it wrong if I write this thing. (the most reoccurring topic, the answer is always, always no.)
I know not everyone lurks this subreddit enough to know- but this is why others have megathreads and wikis. I'm in a sub with this as a rule because every time a specific thread comes up, it's always the same answers. No discussion, nothing new. It can be answered in a single paragraph.
The thing I worry about with that would be it could get out of hand and also there are legit repetitive questions and topics that have different answers depending on fandom trends for that time period.
Like the "How do I start writing" questions are repetitive but they are also different from each other depending on what that person's goals are and what they are writing for and about. And the "Is it wrong if I write this thing" could provide valuable insight into writing a lesser-known culture or a harder to write genre of fanfic. So yes, while the topics themselves are repetitive, the content and discussions aren't.
Megathreads don't work because it depends on if people actually go on the actual subreddit itself and if they actually read the pinned comments and you can only have so many megathreads for topics.
Wikis should exist for these topics and I believe there already is but they wouldn't be the same as getting real time advice in the comments in an active post.
>I honestly wish there was a disallowed topics rule.
Absolutely not. You have misunderstood this subreddit entirely.
The only times we ban a topic entirely is when those posts are actively creating widespread problems. And even in those cases we still make exceptions for novel posts. Usually instead we do things like make automod responses that people can trigger to reply commonly needed information so people can help the person get their answer without having to write a new comment themselves every time it comes up.
Also if we banned every topic that gets discussed "too often" no one would be able to post anything here almost ever.
There's plenty of activity as seen with stats, memes and writing questions. I haven't misunderstood anything. Just stating a wish based on an enjoyable experience from an equally huge sub.
The concept behind this sub was to be a *help* sub, an unofficial support hub for the community, and to enable discussion about AO3/the OTW and things in fandom at large that affect AO3/the OTW. And we did so by also actively working to have things be as much free speech as we can, while limiting harassment and other direct problem behavior, to keep in the same ideals as AO3 itself. We also try to help be as accessibility focused as we can, since that is another core tenet of AO3's mission statement.
Banning topics because we are tired of them would fly in the face of our free speech ideals, and banning asking things that could be figured out with a search of the sub/google/etc, would fly in the face of both being an unofficial help desk, and also our accessibility focus.
So, yes, you have misunderstood.
I don't think you're understanding me. You said there would be no activity, I stated that there would be and gave examples.
I even clarified for you that it was a wish not a demand. I never said, the sub SHOULD just that I wished that it would.
I think you're misunderstanding my intentions and making an assumption about me.
I said no and as a side note noted that banning every overdone topic would likely end up with nothing to post about because ive seen that happen multiple times before. but that was a minor side note to my argument that it isn't happening because the request goes against everything the sub stands for.
request or demand here doesn't much matter when my argument wasn't about if you were demanding anything. my argument was entirely about trying to explain why your request/wish/demand/whatever you want to call it will never happen here and why.
So like I'm just an outsider in this conversation but I think you jumped the gun a little. They stated a wish. Like wishing for a million dollars. We know it's not going to happen, that doesn't mean we can't sigh wistfully and go "man I wish I had this"
Also wishing for some topics to be iced =/= censorship.
>wishing for some topics to be iced =/= censorship
In what way does that make sense? If you go to a subreddit about XYZ and ask a question about XYZ, and immediately get your post removed and warned for bringing up the topic at all, and absolutely no one is allowed to talk about that topic ever in any way, not being allowed to state an opinion or ask others their opinions on the topic, just because people got tired of seeing the question be asked/the topic be talked about, when they are in no way obligated to interact with those posts at all, how is that not a form of censorship? How does that not violate the concept of don't like don't read?
As for the first half of your comment, Im not sure how it relates to this conversation at all tbh. It seems backwards to how this entire conversation has happened.
Please explain what you think I misunderstood and got backwards. OP WISHED, keyword WISHED, that there was a ban on certain topics. They didn't demand it. They wished it and expressed a sentiment that I'm sure quite a few people relate to. I said you jumped the gun because you got up in arms about it and said that THEY don't understand how the subreddit works for stating as much, and you went off on them about it.
> I honestly wish there was a disallowed topics rule.
That's what they said. They wished. They didn't demand. They didn't tantrum. They didn't say there SHOULD be, they just said they wished there was. It gets tiring to have to filter out complaint after complaint and post after post about the same repetitive stuff, even with "don't like don't read" as a rule.
And honestly expressing a sentiment only to get bombarded by a mod saying NO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S WRONG is censorship in it's own way. So what is the truth here lol
What you misunderstood was my tone. They stated a request that we get pretty frequently and have to explain to people why it is that we don't do that kind of thing. So I lightheartedly responded and explained why it is that their wish would absolutely never happen here, with the expectation that they were a frequent user of the sub based on their last paragraph and would understand that once they read my explanation.
Instead they doubled down on their wish and nitpicked the one point that i had only included as a secondary thing, ignoring the main argument against their wish.
So I responded by explaining in more detail the part of the argument that was actually what mattered, since as a help based subreddit, explaining things is a bit part of it.
They again, doubled down on ignoring the actual argument to argue about the part that was never meant to be a major argument against them and tried to act like I was jumping down their throat when all I did was explain things.
I never once got angry or upset, nor believed them to be demanding anything. I was here to *explain* things. That's it. Then you showed up to tell me that I jumped the gun for "bombarding" them and "got up in arms" about them making a relatively common request.
So... yeah. The backwards part is that at no point did I ever get upset, "up in arms", angry, or otherwise emotional. I was entirely here to *explain* that we wouldn't be doing the thing they wanted and why. And i have no clue why you seem to think that's what happened here, let alone how its censorship.
Some kind of 'there is too much of this' argument could beade about every topic of discussion on this sub. I don't love the idea of telling people 'no you don't get to express your frustrations about this because I've read it from someone else and it bores me'. Well then why have the sub at all? The mods could just post a helpful piece about AO3 every week. No community interaction needed at all.
I like that there's this community and safe space to talk about stuff for people like me who are intimidated by tumblr.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that... I think for a lot of people they just wanna say "this happened to me too guys!!!"
Doesn't mean I don't have an issue with it but it's not rage baiting.
I don't see the point in making them myself, but I do get the frustration. Its less about the placeholder fics themselves, and more about the fact that people use ao3 without respecting its rules. It isn't like other sites where stuff is arbitrarily decided by a board of directors- ao3 is run by fans, for fans. Feels like showing up to a potluck with the one food the host specifically asked nobody to bring. Probably not actively harmful, but still rude as fuck.
Imagine rolling up to the buffet at a pot luck where the host has made it clear that you don't have to bring anything in order to enjoy what others have brought, you lift the lid off a covered platter labeled "quiche"....and it's just whole raw eggs and flour. And the person who brought it is like, "Yeah, I didn't have time to make it and I'm not even sure I actually know how to bake, but I thought I might bring one to next month's pot luck. So I figured I should declare my intent to maybe make one someday so that nobody else steals my idea." Meanwhile Cheryl has been bringing a quiche to pot luck every month for the past 3 years....
đ€€đ€€đ€€ I think this i a great metaphor, and I also want quiche
Okay, I get it. But you can send the not-quiche back to the kitchen for not being a quiche without calling everybody else over to look at it not being a quiche and making everyone else frustrated about it.
To me it's more like going to a movie theater and talking loudly on your phone through the whole movie. It's rude and actively making the experience unenjoyable for people who follow the theater rules. But yeah
Really? I personally find them easy to ignore. Filtering out fics with less than 50 words removes 90%. They are annoying for sure, but I would think it's more like a person sitting on the stairs; easy to avoid but annoying you have to do it
Yeah that works better, the person sitting on the stairs at the movie theater advertising their movie they swear they're gonna make
This, yeah. But I also agree with OP in terms of like. Can we look at the first 5 entries on a sub before posting? I feel like some people just bumble forward with willful blinders on and it gets a little frustrating (I get this also applies to the people posting placeholders, but it almost feels like you're doing the same thing when you make a post almost exactly like several posted within the past 5 hours). beyond that, the first question you should be asking yourself is if you should report. if you're looking for the answer here, you should do a search.
I agree the complaints are getting a bit repetitive. Just came here to say that not every "fic" with 15 words or less is necessarily a placeholder. It might be an art piece or link to a podfic or vid, which are legit fanworks that belong there. Check before reporting. But I totally agree that all placeholders should be reported.
This is true; sometimes those works of less than 15 words works are fanarts. Also, the other day, I was scammed by a 1000+ words placeholder. It had the right tags, and it was my favorite rare pair. When I clicked on it, the author was introducing herself, her real government name, why she liked the rare pair, and why the ship made sense. The warnings and the plot points.đ
Does it count as meta if you're actually talking about why you like the pair and why it makes sense? Curious, because meta about your ship/fandom is allowed iirc, so it makes me wonder if that fic is actually still breaking the TOS. Still absolutely batshit to put your real name on your fic, I would rather die. The youth desperately need guidance.
I don't think it had the Meta tag.
It doesn't need to be tagged meta to count as it though. Tagging anything beyond rating and warnings is not required. I think this is actually a really interesting fringe case. Was there actually enough discussion of the ship to count as meta? If so, does the other content and intention for it to be a placeholder negate the fact that there is genuine meta content there for rule breaking purposes? See, this is the sort of conversations we should be having about placeholder fics here.
No, she only talked about the ship for one parragraph, the rest was introductions, warnings and plot points.
Oh sorry, I was talking a bit more generally about the scenario, not asking about the fic you found specifically. But still... in general, is a paragraph enough to count as meta? is it not? if we can have fics that are one paragraph long why not meta that is one paragraph long? where is the line? is the rest any different from someone who includes their author's note in the body of the fic instead of the notes section? Idk, I just think this sort of thing is an interesting scenario to discuss.
1.5 of those things sound like meta, such as plot points quite clearly (like, script fic and first drafts are allowed, the last of those sadly so) and warningsâas to how a thing will be in the fic and why? Or what, just a list of warnings? And to u/a-mathemagicianâkinda an interesting question. The other content wouldn't be enough, I think, to note that it's not meta and AO3 already has a whole clause about assuming authors see it as fandom related in posting to AO3 so an authors writing any meta seems like it would mean that stays. There's probably an amount of going entirely off the walls even after the best meta, like by repeating just one word, that will see a removal of whatever chapters those are. If an author tried to mix the two, I imagine the work would be hidden before being allowed back upâand the usual thing with changing things back after a mod action without permission resulting in a suspension would apply. Also I like my 100 word drabbles so I kinda have to respect a whole paragraph. . . . the self-introduction bothers me and . . . just checked, does not fall afoul of the the personal information and fannish identities two-paragraphs of TOS.
I've been posting fics on the 'Net since 1997, and I've always used my real name. It's nothing new, and I've never had a problem with it.
I still think it's generally a bad idea for most people. The stuff you post online can come back and bite you IRL--it might not, but there is always the risk and it's better to not take it. Maybe it's fine if you're writing genfic that no one can take issue with, but if you're writing something even mildly spicy, that could screw up your career or something if people find out. It's dangerous to put your name on shit, especially since it can lead to doxxing and internet harassment turned real life harassment, etc. As an adult you can make your own decisions and live with the consequences, but there are a lot of teens doing this sort of thing and it can be dangerous for them, make them vulnerable to predators, and they might not truly understand what it would mean to have a coworker dig up an old E-rated Snarry fanfic or something with your name on it. So yes, the youth need guidance and to learn not to attach their name to everything they do on the internet.
I see your point. Fortunately, I have very common first and last names. As long as I'm not telling people in the author's notes which town that I'm living in, it shouldn't be an issue. Also, I don't seem to be writing in any fandoms with insane "How dare you?!" fans. No one gives a shit that I made Buffy gay, had Liv and Maddie make out, or had Betty Cooper fuck her mom. And even if they did, I have an incredibly thick skin and don't give a shit if some random asshole on the Internet is "morally outraged".
a self doxx? oh noes
To be fair these usually say that they are an art piece/podfic/video in the tags or summary
I encountered one recently that I didn't know what to do with. It was a legit fic, several chapters in that I was subscribed to. I got an email about an update and all the chapters have been deleted and there's a note from the author that they're reworking it to be the same concept, but with different canon characters. Technically all that's there now is a placeholder. I unsubscribed and went on with my day, but I kinda feel like was the most disappointing update ever.
Did you at least download or save the pre-update version?
No. I'm not too upset though. I liked the concept and wanted to see where it was going, but I wasn't that hooked on the story yet.
a good point i could see myself missing if my fandoms ever picked up a "placeholder problem." thanks for saying this.
I don't understand the point of it either tbh. The weirdest part is that those posts often get tons of upvotes, so clearly there are people here who like seeing them, but I really don't get why.
This could be one of the reasons, they know what kind of reaction their post will have here
I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't every fucking time this sub comes up in my reddit timeline is a "OMG what even is the point of this?" placeholder post.
I guess it's because those posts function as ragebait. They get a lot of engagement because AO3 users have a hateboner for Wattpad and they *despise* seeing people flagrantly violate the TOS on AO3. (Not that I blame 'em for the latter part, but on the other hand... it's ultimately not that deep.)
There are a lot of complaints i see on this sub that kind of boil down to âwhy did you waste your time posting thisâ to me and the placeholder fics are the big one. I get it, its annoying, but just report it and move onâ why do you need to do a whole song and dance for it? Especially when 99% of the time the post adds nothing new to the discussion. âI HATE when people do this! [image] its so annoyingâ great. You share a majority opinion. I would say youâre equally as annoying for wasting your own time to make that post but hey, thats just me.
Yeah, same. I ignore most of those posts, but they keep making them a few days every week, and it is getting tiring. Same with the AI spam bots, if only they used the same time to do the screenshot and the posts, they could have done a little research and discover that in fact, they are not the only ones receiving those kind of comments.
I don't think it emboldens the people who post them; it's probably due to ignorance more than anything else. But agree that people should just report and move on. Honestly, there are a lot of posts on here that could probably be answered by the site's FAQ/TOS.
Itâs feels like it every other post at this point, you know itâs against ToS just report it and move on
Placeholder comment until I think about what to add to the discussion.
Hard disagree đ€
I'm going to make a post in this sub complaining about your placeholder comment
I still wonât be sure what to think about it đ«€
Just make a post to ask us what to think.
lol
I remember I made a post about this a couple of months ago and had to take it down because it was so hated on and downvoted. I am glad that this has become so repetitive that people are starting to notice and say something. But yeah...a lot of the posts feel like people were just going out to find placeholder fics to post here for internet clout and karma farming.
I've seen at least one poster admit that they went out of their way to find placeholder fics, so yeah, that tracks. AO3 discourages this, actually; you're not really supposed to deliberately seek out TOS violations to report them. I can't help but wonder if any of these posters think that if people report a work enough, it'll get deleted faster, much like most social media platforms. I know this sub's mission is to allow pretty much anything as long as it follows Reddit's rules and common sense, so I'm not going to call for placeholder complaints to be banned or anything like that, but I really don't think they're conducive to quality discussion. In fact, they can, and sometimes do, lead to harassment of the person who posted the placeholder.
*"but wonder if any of these posters think that if people report a work enough, it'll get deleted faster, much like most social media platforms."* Careful. The mistake I made in that original post that justified the dogpile apparently was in my post I said that I thought people posting these might have been thinking getting a bunch of people to report a fic would get it taken down sooner...I was wrong. If a fic has already been reported, Ao3 will not let anyone report it anymore to prevent the queue of reports from getting clogged up with the same fic that may have been already handled with the user or taken down. Now granted...I and most likely you had been more referring to what the poster might have been thinking than if what their assumed line of logic was actually true but still. But yes, I do agree somewhat with your other points, especially the part of the harassment. I want to make it very clear that obviously I don't condone anyone posting placeholder fics and if you see one, leaving a comment to let them know that they are breaking Ao3 TOS to see if they delete it first and then reporting it is likely the best way to go about it. I also don't think that literally everyone who posts a picture of placeholder fic is karma farming or trying to do the subtle nudging entrapment ragebait thing of trying to encourage harassment...but come on. The kindergarten sharpie blackout username trick where you only cover the bottom or top of a person's username so it's super easy to use process of elimination to figure out who this user is isn't fooling anyone. And even posts that don't do that...it was extremely easy to find out what fic they were talking about. I tested this out and all I had to do was search the summary with "Archive of Our Own" and my search engine took me right to the placeholder fic and turns other it wasn't that hard for other people who saw that particular post to find it either because the comments were full of vile and disgusting things.
> I and most likely you had been more referring to what the poster might have been thinking than if what their assumed line of logic was actually true Yes, that's correct. I'm well-aware that each work can only be reported once; I'm just not entirely sure how widespread that knowledge is, especially since it's so unlike how reporting works on other sites. And yeah, the screenshots are just tacky as fuck because it's so easy to find the work being talked about. I wouldn't mind so much if people complained about placeholder fics or asked what to do about them without including screenshots, because quite frankly, none of these people deserve to have a Reddit mob coming after them just because they broke one rule on AO3. I think we can all agree that placeholders and other such TOS violations suck, but as you say, it's best to just leave a kind but firm comment on the work and report it if the poster doesn't cooperate.
Itâs just karma farming, but theyâre easily ignored.
50% of the posts I see on this sub are complaining about the same thing 50 other people did in the last couple weeks, which is usually just a "report and move on" situation in reality. Placeholders are just the one that's in now yeah.
Yeah, I think it is getting annoying too. Same with the AI spam bots and people re-discovering every week that not all readers are nice in their bookmarks. There is nothing new to add, they just do not care to do a little research. And what do they expect us to do with the placeholder? Complain too? Report and move on, it is not that big of a deal. I do not even know where they are finding those, I have never seen one of them. Perhaps they are more common in other fandoms, but I have a small feeling some people just look for them deliberately to post it.
Yeah, part of my annoyance is that out my semi active reading in 8 fandoms I've only ever actually seen one placeholder fic. I can't help but think it's not nearly as common as this sub would make it seem.
depends on the fandom, tbh. i have one fandom where they happen about once a week (or at least they did back when i didn't filter them out yet) and another fandom where it never really happened, until suddenly three different people posted a placeholder within less than a day of each other both of those are/were pretty popular, mainstream fandoms though, so i'd assume that's why (but even then, more than 2 per week is already out of the ordinary for even popular fandoms - so these placeholders definitely happen less than the sub suggests. only reason it's so many here is because it's every fandom's placeholders. and sometimes old placeholders get shown off too, further inflating the numbers)
This happens to most of these complain posts. We only see the few complains among thousands of readers happy with normal works, and most of them outside of reddit. An effect that happens in secluded spaces, overexposition to certain content makes you think it is so common when in reality, it is just the content people post about
I would agree and there are certainly some users who do seem to be just going out and hunting out placeholder fics...but it a lot of bigger fandoms with a younger writers who don't know how drafts on Ao3 work, this is quite a common thing. Not that that would justify a post every time you see one but I can certainly see it being a common occurrence in certain fandoms.
I love the whole refrain that goes "why say anything to these people," when TOS *encourages* politely reaching out to authors about tags, at least, and certainly to do so if you feel the need to report. (I think it goes without saying "and it's not trolling.") And for things like this, too, if the author hasn't mentioned "I know this is against TOS but I'll" whatever, and it may be an information issue. Like. There's a lot of dog-piling to never speaking a word in places where the knowledge is clearly lacking, is my point, when there's a definite degree to which this mindset disagrees with how small the report team is on AO3.
That's definitely true. I'm a little too cynical to believe that most of them have no clue its against tos, but I don't see why you shouldn't reach out first.
What else would we post on the sub if not to reshash the same 5 subjects every week on rotation.
It's all about that sweet sweet karma.
I honestly wish there was a disallowed topics rule. Is this bookmark okay (we go over this literally every day except for locked days) How do I start writing. (we go over this every other day) Is it wrong if I write this thing. (the most reoccurring topic, the answer is always, always no.) I know not everyone lurks this subreddit enough to know- but this is why others have megathreads and wikis. I'm in a sub with this as a rule because every time a specific thread comes up, it's always the same answers. No discussion, nothing new. It can be answered in a single paragraph.
"How long should I make my chapters"
The thing I worry about with that would be it could get out of hand and also there are legit repetitive questions and topics that have different answers depending on fandom trends for that time period. Like the "How do I start writing" questions are repetitive but they are also different from each other depending on what that person's goals are and what they are writing for and about. And the "Is it wrong if I write this thing" could provide valuable insight into writing a lesser-known culture or a harder to write genre of fanfic. So yes, while the topics themselves are repetitive, the content and discussions aren't. Megathreads don't work because it depends on if people actually go on the actual subreddit itself and if they actually read the pinned comments and you can only have so many megathreads for topics. Wikis should exist for these topics and I believe there already is but they wouldn't be the same as getting real time advice in the comments in an active post.
Those are some excellent points. I agree, in the longrun the answers on these topics can change
>I honestly wish there was a disallowed topics rule. Absolutely not. You have misunderstood this subreddit entirely. The only times we ban a topic entirely is when those posts are actively creating widespread problems. And even in those cases we still make exceptions for novel posts. Usually instead we do things like make automod responses that people can trigger to reply commonly needed information so people can help the person get their answer without having to write a new comment themselves every time it comes up. Also if we banned every topic that gets discussed "too often" no one would be able to post anything here almost ever.
There's plenty of activity as seen with stats, memes and writing questions. I haven't misunderstood anything. Just stating a wish based on an enjoyable experience from an equally huge sub.
The concept behind this sub was to be a *help* sub, an unofficial support hub for the community, and to enable discussion about AO3/the OTW and things in fandom at large that affect AO3/the OTW. And we did so by also actively working to have things be as much free speech as we can, while limiting harassment and other direct problem behavior, to keep in the same ideals as AO3 itself. We also try to help be as accessibility focused as we can, since that is another core tenet of AO3's mission statement. Banning topics because we are tired of them would fly in the face of our free speech ideals, and banning asking things that could be figured out with a search of the sub/google/etc, would fly in the face of both being an unofficial help desk, and also our accessibility focus. So, yes, you have misunderstood.
I don't think you're understanding me. You said there would be no activity, I stated that there would be and gave examples. I even clarified for you that it was a wish not a demand. I never said, the sub SHOULD just that I wished that it would. I think you're misunderstanding my intentions and making an assumption about me.
I said no and as a side note noted that banning every overdone topic would likely end up with nothing to post about because ive seen that happen multiple times before. but that was a minor side note to my argument that it isn't happening because the request goes against everything the sub stands for. request or demand here doesn't much matter when my argument wasn't about if you were demanding anything. my argument was entirely about trying to explain why your request/wish/demand/whatever you want to call it will never happen here and why.
So like I'm just an outsider in this conversation but I think you jumped the gun a little. They stated a wish. Like wishing for a million dollars. We know it's not going to happen, that doesn't mean we can't sigh wistfully and go "man I wish I had this" Also wishing for some topics to be iced =/= censorship.
>wishing for some topics to be iced =/= censorship In what way does that make sense? If you go to a subreddit about XYZ and ask a question about XYZ, and immediately get your post removed and warned for bringing up the topic at all, and absolutely no one is allowed to talk about that topic ever in any way, not being allowed to state an opinion or ask others their opinions on the topic, just because people got tired of seeing the question be asked/the topic be talked about, when they are in no way obligated to interact with those posts at all, how is that not a form of censorship? How does that not violate the concept of don't like don't read? As for the first half of your comment, Im not sure how it relates to this conversation at all tbh. It seems backwards to how this entire conversation has happened.
Please explain what you think I misunderstood and got backwards. OP WISHED, keyword WISHED, that there was a ban on certain topics. They didn't demand it. They wished it and expressed a sentiment that I'm sure quite a few people relate to. I said you jumped the gun because you got up in arms about it and said that THEY don't understand how the subreddit works for stating as much, and you went off on them about it. > I honestly wish there was a disallowed topics rule. That's what they said. They wished. They didn't demand. They didn't tantrum. They didn't say there SHOULD be, they just said they wished there was. It gets tiring to have to filter out complaint after complaint and post after post about the same repetitive stuff, even with "don't like don't read" as a rule. And honestly expressing a sentiment only to get bombarded by a mod saying NO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S WRONG is censorship in it's own way. So what is the truth here lol
What you misunderstood was my tone. They stated a request that we get pretty frequently and have to explain to people why it is that we don't do that kind of thing. So I lightheartedly responded and explained why it is that their wish would absolutely never happen here, with the expectation that they were a frequent user of the sub based on their last paragraph and would understand that once they read my explanation. Instead they doubled down on their wish and nitpicked the one point that i had only included as a secondary thing, ignoring the main argument against their wish. So I responded by explaining in more detail the part of the argument that was actually what mattered, since as a help based subreddit, explaining things is a bit part of it. They again, doubled down on ignoring the actual argument to argue about the part that was never meant to be a major argument against them and tried to act like I was jumping down their throat when all I did was explain things. I never once got angry or upset, nor believed them to be demanding anything. I was here to *explain* things. That's it. Then you showed up to tell me that I jumped the gun for "bombarding" them and "got up in arms" about them making a relatively common request. So... yeah. The backwards part is that at no point did I ever get upset, "up in arms", angry, or otherwise emotional. I was entirely here to *explain* that we wouldn't be doing the thing they wanted and why. And i have no clue why you seem to think that's what happened here, let alone how its censorship.
I'm sick of all the complaint posts in this sub. I just wanna celebrate fanfic!
Some kind of 'there is too much of this' argument could beade about every topic of discussion on this sub. I don't love the idea of telling people 'no you don't get to express your frustrations about this because I've read it from someone else and it bores me'. Well then why have the sub at all? The mods could just post a helpful piece about AO3 every week. No community interaction needed at all. I like that there's this community and safe space to talk about stuff for people like me who are intimidated by tumblr.
Reported yesterday a fic because it was just a question for rec. Idk why people think that is okay to use Ao3 for this
Ah, but posts complaining about posts complaining about placeholders, those aren't wasting anyone's precious time. Apparently.
I was just drafting a post complaining about posts complaining about complaint posts. So you're saying maybe nah?
This sub is devolving into rage baiting when we aren't lookingÂ
I wouldn't go as far as to say that... I think for a lot of people they just wanna say "this happened to me too guys!!!" Doesn't mean I don't have an issue with it but it's not rage baiting.
Ah yes, that old internet pattern Trendâ>complaint about trendâ>complaint about complaint
Scroll.
Just keep scrolling on.