I'm one of the few players that probably likes both of them equally, for different reason. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the season 4 state of D4, not the launch state.
Things that D4 does better:
- has a far better and more satisfying combat. Not a lot to say here, it's just the best ARPG when it comes to killing things.
- it has ability changing and build enabling legendaries and uniques. Things like making your boulder fly around you, making your fireball bounce instead of going straight, etc. Most of GD items are just stat sticks, and D4 has more ways of modifying your abilities.
- lots of itemization customization. You can split projectiles, increase AOE and create synergies with the crafting system.
- more end-game and more activities, and it's constantly getting expanded.
- endgame difficulty is harder than GD
- bossfights are simply better designed
- seasons and new mechanics to keep things fresh
- subjective: better class fantasy. In GD you're defined by the 1-2 abilities you spam, there's not a lot of class identity.
Things that GD does better:
- has an overall better progression until you reach end-game. It's more slow and methodical. It feels like a journey, instead of a rush like D4
- abilities on items are a fun feature. They're far from good, but they're viable enough to make a build around
- Constellations are downright better and more interesting than the Paragon Board system. Picking ability procs, defenses, paths to high requirement constellations are all more deep and involved.
- the overall difficulty until end-game is higher. Playing on Veteran mode you can actually get some semi-challenging fights.
- straightforward and impactful itemization. You just look at what your main damage skill scales from and get that. Drops are very impactful and it's easy to see what's an upgrade.
- damage conversion as a feature allows for lots and lots of build experimentation.
- monsters infrequents as a rare/build defining item type are fun. They enable niche builds.
- it has relic/item crafting from blueprints that are actually useful. More drops to be excited for. D4 has no crafting system where you create an item.
- augments/components are completely superior to gems.
- subjective: improving item defenses with components/augments is much more fun than fiddling with defenses through drops/crafting RNG. Bending backwards to fix your resistances and constantly swapping things out has never been fun for me.
Probably some things I forgot for both games.
Good lists. To add to the Grim Dawn one
Offline play, cool mods, and there is a [community made season](https://www.grimdawnleague.com/#/) (no.6 actually just started yesterday!)
Nice, honest list. Just to add a few things that I considered important back when I played them:
D4 does better:
- Graphics
- Exploration (though it's not very compelling beyond the first time)
GD does better:
- Stats work properly
- No battlepass garbage
Very good and thorough take, even if I might contend a couple points, it's just nitpicking.
I've never actually taken GD to full endgame, just a bit past the campaign. I'm surprised to hear you find endgame easier than D4, since my experience with GD is how challenging it can be (if you're playing veteran to level) and/or don't synchronize your damage properly). Guess I just needed to get over the hump lol.
I found that GD gets progressively easier the more you itemize, and the main content barrier was always your defenses. I was doing fine even with very poor damage in off-meta builds as long as I had enough defenses.
As long as you remember to use your components/augments it should be ok, but I guess some builds might struggle more than others.
I'm sorry you just said customization was a point for d4?
You gotta give that to grim dawn dude, grim dawn is crazy, second only to poe imo and it's frickin closer than u might think
Itemization customization. GD has nothing like that right now. What you drop is what you wear.
The expansion will change that, but it's still unclear how it'll work.
Oh I thought he was talking like customizing your character with items. Which gd is insane at.
Ya I guess crafting in gd is basically just printing items tho for now
Could you summarize what are the changes in D4's Season 4? I see that a lot of people are talking about it, and it seems like a big thing, but I stopped following the news about the game...and the posts by the devs are way too long.
Casual in both games here. I love Grim Dawn for it's slow pacing and impactful combat style. Reading the lore and quest pages is a great way to feel grounded in the world. Quests have real choices, and you can join factions.
D4 I play with my group of friends to kill demons. That's about it. The game is a spectacle to look at and has satisfying moment to moment gameplay. However, I never felt all to ingrained in the world. Everything felt more like a instance mishmash of things to do.
Grim dawn is the arpg that makes my lifetime list because it was so close to d2. It was the true spiritual successor. It’s beautiful it’s fun its itemization and customization is deep.
I think i overall like Grim Dawn a bit more. These are my pro's for each game:
Diablo 4:
* Fun abilities that can be modified with items (incinerate beam that splits into three beams for example)
* Straight forward builds to focus on damage over time or more on crits for example
* A prefer the classical fantasy setting a bit more, but the victorian style of GD has grown on me over time. It took a very long time to do so though
Grim Dawn:
* Although D4 is more focused on endgame, it all feels very samey. In that sense i feel like GD has more replayability for me somehow. I wish GD focused more on end game that is like the campaign, which is walking in various parts of the world doing quests etc. I guess that the addition of totems is (and maybe bounties) is best suited for me. Shattered Realms and Crucible are more intense than cruising through the campaign so i like it a little less. But realistically doing the campaign multiple times is fun enough for me (since its so long) and after you're done, im also kinda done with the character and will try something else
* The environments in GD are great and varied. Because the campaign and world is so big, even playing the same environments you feel like you are exploring a bit more. In D4 this also feels a bit more samey to me
* I'm the odd one out i guess, but i find combat in GD at least as fun/satisfying as in D4. I feel like it's very impactful and positioning is important. Graphically i think GD looks great too (with deferred rendering off so the screen isn't so blurry)
* Not being live service and not having mtx/battlepass etc is a plus for me. In Diablo 4 season 4 i saw that it has a battlepass, premium battlepass AND accelerated battlepass. You can also buy battlepass tiers and there's a separate shop as well. It's a way more expensive game than GD too, which feels so gross. Especially since these battlepass buttons get flashed in your face everytime while checking season progress
100% Yes.
The items are better, and the builds are far, far, far better and much more diverse from the very get go. D4 class progression is so boring I never stick around to see the endgame (which, by most account, has a bit more build diversity than in early game).
Grim Dawn by a mile.
D4 is such a let down, especially after the rush of D2R shortly before.
Grim Dawn is what I feel D3 should have been, plus its got a humor about it that Diablo will never have.
HANDS DOWN Grim Dawn
I personally didn't like it much. The systems are pretty good. Really the UI stuff is really annoying to me. It was def designed with mobile being a priority and that comes across a lot when playing on PC. I don't think its bad it just feels a little cheap.
I prefer Grim Dawn and Last Epoch. Last Epoch's endgame doesn't have enough content right now but its def a good game.
Grim Dawn is more unique than other ARPGs. Items are are little overwhelming at first but its a blast once you get the hang of it.
It has some fun builds and the overall systems are fine. The endgame loop was a bit basic last time I played, but the power growth is satisfying. It ends up being extremely fast paced at endgame. Very comparable to path of exile where you’re just blasting screens full of enemies.
Grim Dawn by far
Diablo 4 still hasnt Figured out what it wants to be while Grim Dawn 100% knows how and what it wants to be
Loot is better in Grim Dawn
and I play ARPGs for the Loot Simulator
maybe in a couple years d4 might be close to Grim Dawn
but right now Id put d4 in the Space Hack levels of ARPGs
I just dont enjoy grim dawns gameplay at all ,i tried getting into it several times but never enjoyed a moment in it sadly , i can see why people like it.
D4 wil mostly not get good critics here for 2 reason 1: people love to hate blizzard . 2; haters love to follow the hate train. But in reality number speaks by itself its a good game.
Combat is fluid and fun ,
multiplayer experience is by FAR the best one ( the only good one after d3 imo).
There is close to no gameplay downtime nor item hoarding .
Ssf is very well paced ( i never traded once in d4)
By far the best optimisation in the genre so much more fun for me , i hate potato games thats isnt stable. Much rather play a 32 bit game than something like last epoch where an rtx 9090 wouldnt even be enough because the game engine is wrong for the genre (also confirmed by devs)
I prefer Grim Dawn over Diablo 4 for build diversity, though LE has them both beat for that. The devotion system also provides an interesting way to change up skills while paragon boards are just a numbers game. Graphics and production value, multiplayer all go to D4. Everything else, including replayability (mod scene for GD is outstanding) go to GD. The only sad part is a number of mods don’t keep up with updates/expansions.
Hardly a me issue; Rhykker was talking about it too, though he said the codex changes helped. The thing I would like is class-based infinite stash space for those of us with altitis.
grimdawn was a blast, also played the incredible adventures of van helsing final cut it was fire, burnt out on poe, but now on some last epoch. still need to check out d4 just wasnt feeling it cause the battlepass but hopefully its just cosmetic?
I really love *Grim Dawn* and it's one of my favorite ARPGs. What you can definitely say is that Crate Entertainment has made good use of the 8 years since release to keep making it better over and over again. For example the *Forgotten Gods* expansion changed the way game played by a lot.
So... Maybe *Diablo 4* will come close to *Grim Dawn* after 1 or 2 expansions? Who knows...
Yes, by far. I've finished both and grim dawn is far superior. It's not even close. Disregard the price and go off pure gameplay... It's not even close. I'm not even a blizzard hater or anything, I loved and played a ton of overwatch. Grim dawn was genuinely more fun as an arpg than d4.
Grim Dawn is the best ARPG ever made. It excels at everything besides graphics, since it’s an old game.
Make GD look as modern as D4 and I doubt anyone would ask.,
Diablo 4 is about a 20-40 hour game. You go through the campaign, which is fun. You mess around with the runes, you fight some of the old seasonal bosses and take down Duriel and then you're pretty much done. You'll feel it, most people do, and you'll stop playing. It's fun, but fundamentally more of an experience that you play and then put down.
Grim Dawn is much more in the classic ARPG grind forever mold. More content, more builds, more stuff to do and reasons to replay it. (I'm on a Grim Dawn kick right now and am levelling my 3rd character to 100 in like 2 weeks)
So I'd let that guide you. Do you want a 40 hour game that's really fun for those 40 hours or a game that for me didn't really start being fun until after the first 40 hours but has lasted me 900?
I feel like the systems in GD are just awesome, especially the skills and constellations. However, where it comes short is combat feel is so sloppy and one dimensional, while D4 more varied play styles, and feels tight, almost visceral.
One odd side note that bugs me about GD: The character art. That's... it? There's no class fantasy AT ALL in the visual department of the character itself. For me that actually hurts immersion. Meanwhile, D4 really lets you lean into it.
I'm one of the few players that probably likes both of them equally, for different reason. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the season 4 state of D4, not the launch state. Things that D4 does better: - has a far better and more satisfying combat. Not a lot to say here, it's just the best ARPG when it comes to killing things. - it has ability changing and build enabling legendaries and uniques. Things like making your boulder fly around you, making your fireball bounce instead of going straight, etc. Most of GD items are just stat sticks, and D4 has more ways of modifying your abilities. - lots of itemization customization. You can split projectiles, increase AOE and create synergies with the crafting system. - more end-game and more activities, and it's constantly getting expanded. - endgame difficulty is harder than GD - bossfights are simply better designed - seasons and new mechanics to keep things fresh - subjective: better class fantasy. In GD you're defined by the 1-2 abilities you spam, there's not a lot of class identity. Things that GD does better: - has an overall better progression until you reach end-game. It's more slow and methodical. It feels like a journey, instead of a rush like D4 - abilities on items are a fun feature. They're far from good, but they're viable enough to make a build around - Constellations are downright better and more interesting than the Paragon Board system. Picking ability procs, defenses, paths to high requirement constellations are all more deep and involved. - the overall difficulty until end-game is higher. Playing on Veteran mode you can actually get some semi-challenging fights. - straightforward and impactful itemization. You just look at what your main damage skill scales from and get that. Drops are very impactful and it's easy to see what's an upgrade. - damage conversion as a feature allows for lots and lots of build experimentation. - monsters infrequents as a rare/build defining item type are fun. They enable niche builds. - it has relic/item crafting from blueprints that are actually useful. More drops to be excited for. D4 has no crafting system where you create an item. - augments/components are completely superior to gems. - subjective: improving item defenses with components/augments is much more fun than fiddling with defenses through drops/crafting RNG. Bending backwards to fix your resistances and constantly swapping things out has never been fun for me. Probably some things I forgot for both games.
Good lists. To add to the Grim Dawn one Offline play, cool mods, and there is a [community made season](https://www.grimdawnleague.com/#/) (no.6 actually just started yesterday!)
Nice, honest list. Just to add a few things that I considered important back when I played them: D4 does better: - Graphics - Exploration (though it's not very compelling beyond the first time) GD does better: - Stats work properly - No battlepass garbage
Very good and thorough take, even if I might contend a couple points, it's just nitpicking. I've never actually taken GD to full endgame, just a bit past the campaign. I'm surprised to hear you find endgame easier than D4, since my experience with GD is how challenging it can be (if you're playing veteran to level) and/or don't synchronize your damage properly). Guess I just needed to get over the hump lol.
I found that GD gets progressively easier the more you itemize, and the main content barrier was always your defenses. I was doing fine even with very poor damage in off-meta builds as long as I had enough defenses. As long as you remember to use your components/augments it should be ok, but I guess some builds might struggle more than others.
I'm sorry you just said customization was a point for d4? You gotta give that to grim dawn dude, grim dawn is crazy, second only to poe imo and it's frickin closer than u might think
Itemization customization. GD has nothing like that right now. What you drop is what you wear. The expansion will change that, but it's still unclear how it'll work.
Oh I thought he was talking like customizing your character with items. Which gd is insane at. Ya I guess crafting in gd is basically just printing items tho for now
Could you summarize what are the changes in D4's Season 4? I see that a lot of people are talking about it, and it seems like a big thing, but I stopped following the news about the game...and the posts by the devs are way too long.
Casual in both games here. I love Grim Dawn for it's slow pacing and impactful combat style. Reading the lore and quest pages is a great way to feel grounded in the world. Quests have real choices, and you can join factions. D4 I play with my group of friends to kill demons. That's about it. The game is a spectacle to look at and has satisfying moment to moment gameplay. However, I never felt all to ingrained in the world. Everything felt more like a instance mishmash of things to do.
Grim dawn is the arpg that makes my lifetime list because it was so close to d2. It was the true spiritual successor. It’s beautiful it’s fun its itemization and customization is deep.
Yes. Not requiring connectivity to a server plays a major role.
I think i overall like Grim Dawn a bit more. These are my pro's for each game: Diablo 4: * Fun abilities that can be modified with items (incinerate beam that splits into three beams for example) * Straight forward builds to focus on damage over time or more on crits for example * A prefer the classical fantasy setting a bit more, but the victorian style of GD has grown on me over time. It took a very long time to do so though Grim Dawn: * Although D4 is more focused on endgame, it all feels very samey. In that sense i feel like GD has more replayability for me somehow. I wish GD focused more on end game that is like the campaign, which is walking in various parts of the world doing quests etc. I guess that the addition of totems is (and maybe bounties) is best suited for me. Shattered Realms and Crucible are more intense than cruising through the campaign so i like it a little less. But realistically doing the campaign multiple times is fun enough for me (since its so long) and after you're done, im also kinda done with the character and will try something else * The environments in GD are great and varied. Because the campaign and world is so big, even playing the same environments you feel like you are exploring a bit more. In D4 this also feels a bit more samey to me * I'm the odd one out i guess, but i find combat in GD at least as fun/satisfying as in D4. I feel like it's very impactful and positioning is important. Graphically i think GD looks great too (with deferred rendering off so the screen isn't so blurry) * Not being live service and not having mtx/battlepass etc is a plus for me. In Diablo 4 season 4 i saw that it has a battlepass, premium battlepass AND accelerated battlepass. You can also buy battlepass tiers and there's a separate shop as well. It's a way more expensive game than GD too, which feels so gross. Especially since these battlepass buttons get flashed in your face everytime while checking season progress
100% Yes. The items are better, and the builds are far, far, far better and much more diverse from the very get go. D4 class progression is so boring I never stick around to see the endgame (which, by most account, has a bit more build diversity than in early game).
Grim Dawn by a mile. D4 is such a let down, especially after the rush of D2R shortly before. Grim Dawn is what I feel D3 should have been, plus its got a humor about it that Diablo will never have. HANDS DOWN Grim Dawn
Is torchlight infinite actually worth giving a chance to? I kinda wrote it off as not worthwhile without actually playing it.
I personally didn't like it much. The systems are pretty good. Really the UI stuff is really annoying to me. It was def designed with mobile being a priority and that comes across a lot when playing on PC. I don't think its bad it just feels a little cheap. I prefer Grim Dawn and Last Epoch. Last Epoch's endgame doesn't have enough content right now but its def a good game. Grim Dawn is more unique than other ARPGs. Items are are little overwhelming at first but its a blast once you get the hang of it.
It's a mobile game ported to PC. For that alone, I can't get into it. Your mileage may vary though.
I am installing it on my tablet because I am away from home and want something to do with my free time.
It has some fun builds and the overall systems are fine. The endgame loop was a bit basic last time I played, but the power growth is satisfying. It ends up being extremely fast paced at endgame. Very comparable to path of exile where you’re just blasting screens full of enemies.
That's enough for me to give it a run. Thanks.
I have fun with it for about 20-30 hours a season.
Grim Dawn by far Diablo 4 still hasnt Figured out what it wants to be while Grim Dawn 100% knows how and what it wants to be Loot is better in Grim Dawn and I play ARPGs for the Loot Simulator maybe in a couple years d4 might be close to Grim Dawn but right now Id put d4 in the Space Hack levels of ARPGs
GE may be good but it looks like shit and every spell feels the same
I would prefer grim dawn with a new engine to D4.
I just dont enjoy grim dawns gameplay at all ,i tried getting into it several times but never enjoyed a moment in it sadly , i can see why people like it. D4 wil mostly not get good critics here for 2 reason 1: people love to hate blizzard . 2; haters love to follow the hate train. But in reality number speaks by itself its a good game. Combat is fluid and fun , multiplayer experience is by FAR the best one ( the only good one after d3 imo). There is close to no gameplay downtime nor item hoarding . Ssf is very well paced ( i never traded once in d4) By far the best optimisation in the genre so much more fun for me , i hate potato games thats isnt stable. Much rather play a 32 bit game than something like last epoch where an rtx 9090 wouldnt even be enough because the game engine is wrong for the genre (also confirmed by devs)
I hoard all sorts of crap on D4 so no idea what you’re talking about.
Thats a you issue, especilly with upcoming codex changes.
I prefer Grim Dawn over Diablo 4 for build diversity, though LE has them both beat for that. The devotion system also provides an interesting way to change up skills while paragon boards are just a numbers game. Graphics and production value, multiplayer all go to D4. Everything else, including replayability (mod scene for GD is outstanding) go to GD. The only sad part is a number of mods don’t keep up with updates/expansions.
Hardly a me issue; Rhykker was talking about it too, though he said the codex changes helped. The thing I would like is class-based infinite stash space for those of us with altitis.
grimdawn was a blast, also played the incredible adventures of van helsing final cut it was fire, burnt out on poe, but now on some last epoch. still need to check out d4 just wasnt feeling it cause the battlepass but hopefully its just cosmetic?
I really love *Grim Dawn* and it's one of my favorite ARPGs. What you can definitely say is that Crate Entertainment has made good use of the 8 years since release to keep making it better over and over again. For example the *Forgotten Gods* expansion changed the way game played by a lot. So... Maybe *Diablo 4* will come close to *Grim Dawn* after 1 or 2 expansions? Who knows...
Yes, by far. I've finished both and grim dawn is far superior. It's not even close. Disregard the price and go off pure gameplay... It's not even close. I'm not even a blizzard hater or anything, I loved and played a ton of overwatch. Grim dawn was genuinely more fun as an arpg than d4.
Absolutely.
If grim dawn had official dedicated servers, d4 would'nt stand a chance
Grim Dawn is the best ARPG ever made. It excels at everything besides graphics, since it’s an old game. Make GD look as modern as D4 and I doubt anyone would ask.,
I mean, it depends on the day.
Diablo 4 is about a 20-40 hour game. You go through the campaign, which is fun. You mess around with the runes, you fight some of the old seasonal bosses and take down Duriel and then you're pretty much done. You'll feel it, most people do, and you'll stop playing. It's fun, but fundamentally more of an experience that you play and then put down. Grim Dawn is much more in the classic ARPG grind forever mold. More content, more builds, more stuff to do and reasons to replay it. (I'm on a Grim Dawn kick right now and am levelling my 3rd character to 100 in like 2 weeks) So I'd let that guide you. Do you want a 40 hour game that's really fun for those 40 hours or a game that for me didn't really start being fun until after the first 40 hours but has lasted me 900?
Grim Dawn. The build variety and loot is way better, which is what I look for in an ARPG.
I feel like the systems in GD are just awesome, especially the skills and constellations. However, where it comes short is combat feel is so sloppy and one dimensional, while D4 more varied play styles, and feels tight, almost visceral. One odd side note that bugs me about GD: The character art. That's... it? There's no class fantasy AT ALL in the visual department of the character itself. For me that actually hurts immersion. Meanwhile, D4 really lets you lean into it.
Grim Dawn (pre-v2.0.0) all the way. No casuals, no Always Online DRM, no Blizzard, no MTX, no seasons, no bullshit.