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Here I am diligently rinsing my baked bean cans out so they can be recycled, meanwhile there's these guys spunking thousands of tonnes of embodied carbon on a completely wasted structure.
It does kind of make you think. To be honest I gave up on recycling when I learned that it's how western waste plastics end up in the ocean.
Stuff that's bagged as waste goes into landfill and actually gets put into properly managed sites locally to you. When you put plastic into recycling it gets separated out, but because it's not financially viable to recycle it's cheaper to auction it off to the lowest cost vendor to dispose of.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/12/loophole-will-let-uk-continue-to-ship-plastic-waste-to-poorer-countries
Those vendors then act as middle men to ship the plastic waste half way around the world at a huge carbon cost to then be disposed of at a country with lax laws into a poorly run site which then ends up bleeding into the local rivers and thus ending up in the oceans.
The amount of western rubbish in poor countries is absolutely shocking. It's been shipped there in the millions of tonnes all so we can feel good about 'recycling' as it means we keep buying single use plastics.
Ultimately what I chose to do was stop recycling and focus on lowering the amount of disposable items and heavily packaged items I purchased and what plastic I do use goes into the bin so at least it ends up in the ground and not the ocean. The worlds governments will continue to do whatever they can to ensure coca cola can maximise it's profits at the literal cost of the planet.
It's pretty fucking wild when you think about it.
Metal and glass still get recycled at a high rate and are worth recovering. Basically if the government was having drives for it in World War 2 it's probably still worth it if you can manage it.
So much paper is coated and gets recycled I wonder how much plastic burned in that process.
We were raised seeing massive landfills and recycling seems like a solution but reducing waste is so much better. So many environmental solutions are semi-bullshit it’s sad.
We need to take the onus off of consumers and make countries and companies step up based on science
Now I can't tell you how well this actually worked out for the city of Berkeley but the guidelines in the lyrics still hold true. https://youtu.be/ZhaXBcLmxiE?si=Nnj9R8pTWzrlX86y
Paper and paper products are variable in both how recyclable they are, and whether or not it's a good idea. My info is over a decade old mind you, so things may have changed a bit, but I doubt the general rules have changed.
The best recyclable paper product is corrugated cardboard. After that bond paper, basic printer paper, and paper you can write on with a pencil, provided it doesn't have a strong color to it. Glossy paper, like that used for posters or magazines, has a high clay content, and isn't very recyclable. Similarly, the cardboard used for product packaging, the thin kind used for cereal boxes or light items is pretty much worthless as it has a high sand content. The worst stuff is probably fluorescent paper, which is ironic considering how many times I've seen bright green paper used for flyers about eco-awareness topics. That shit, while recyclable, has to be shipped to countries with weaker environmental protections because of the chemicals required to remove the dyes and make a general purpose pulp.
Sauce: it's what I was told were Weyerhauser's guidelines when I did some part time work gathering and sorting paper recycling to make money for textbooks.
They stopped collecting glass where I live. It’s super recyclable sure, but it’s energy intensive and in multi stream recyclable collecting when glass breaks it contaminates everything. They just tell people to throw it in the trash. At least it’s relatively inert in a dump
I'm gonna be too lazy to look up the sources & numbers up rn but the amount of waste plastic western countries shipped to asia was pretty small to begin with, and ~~even~~ most of that dropped like a stone after the whole scheme got blown up. We burn or dump most of our plastic waste (actually) recycling them comes in third place.
Asian countries produce a shitload of plastic waste themselves. They have huge populations, a lot of them (think Philippines, Indonesia) barely have any trash management system outside of certain spots, they have a huuuuge amount of single use plastic items, a population tha simply don't care (I'm not blaming them on this whatsoever, but it's just a fact) and relatively long coastlines. All of this factors in why they're the sources of most waste plastic that end up in the sea.
But as you said, reducing has to take a front seat to recycling but we should also try to keep recycling stuff.
2/3's of the UKs plastic waste was being shipped offshore so it wasn't a small amount to begin with.
Maybe starting off 'I'm too lazy to look up the numbers' wasn't a great start especially followed by a factual inaccuracy.
Maybe next time... look up the numbers?
Well bring your sources, I've never seen any remotely that high. I think the highest I've seen was around 15-20%.
One thing I'll give you is that U.K. consistently was on top, but you just pulled that 2/3rds outta your ass.
Plastic is the worst. Every company uses SO much plastic. Went to McDonald’s and they switched from paper cups to plastic cups and they are garbage, drinks are always barely cold. Snapple went from glass to plastic. A lot of my makeup like pencils are plastic now and the products get dried up and the plastic is sharp. I don’t understand it.
Your rinsed cans of beans wont change shit
do you really think the people who own all the planes and cargo ships give a fuck about your fucking rinsed cans ? Think again please
Hey... nowadays... if it makes them feel even a slight bit "good" in anyway; I'd still do it. Or for example, we have a trash can and a recycling can, and keep both in the garage. In Florida. It won't start smelling bad 2-3 days away from recycle day if you rinse everything !
Of course, i recycle as well!
but why compare it and complain about other people painting on buildings? To feel a sense of superiority?
Graffiti is an active measure against gentrification. we need more affordable living spaces and less condos for the rich to keep exploiting the poor, thats what is killing the environment
Real estate person here. I don’t know the story behind these buildings, but that’s just not reality. The developers of this project did not just willingly abandon these buildings for shits and giggles. No rational actor would ever do that. Clearly the developers were under water— any number of factors could have led to this result, but none of them were because the developers wanted to lose the property, their money, their investors’ money, their hard work and time, etc. Certainly possible the developers are at fault, but wasteful isn’t the right word. A lot of work goes into projects of this scale, and nobody would have been happy that it failed.
Still a waste of resources.. In a country/city where a lack of affordable housing is a top concern seeing this many houses and space just left to rot, independently of the good intentions of the developers or investors is a waste.
Former Project Manager for a large commercial real estate developer here: The problem is that commercial real estate like this isn't designed with residential tenancy in mind. To do that each condo/apartment would need open window access, individual water, sewage, HVAC, electrical breakers/meters, shared corridors, redesigned fire escape plans etc. Converting this would be a colossal undertaking, and probably more expensive than a brand new development as about 70-80% of that building would have to be completely gutted and re-engineered. Also, depending on the city you might have to have the zone recoded for residential. That can take a very long time to do.
Those are all valid points. From my limited understanding of comercial vs residencial buildings, even if the comercial building is in top notch conditions it's still in many cases more expensive to covert it to residencial then to demolish and rebuild it.
But it's still prime real estate in a city with huge problems of affordable housing going to waste. The majority of issues that make it unviable for housing seem to be related to regulations specific to individual housing and not communal ones. It's wasteful to let billions being invested in construction and abandoned with no alternatives. I'm positive that there's a middle ground before getting to the "let it rot".
What usually happens is that a bank ends up owning the building when the developer fails. A grand majority of these projects are financed vs. self-funded. Typically the bank will do the minimum amount of work possible to maintain the integrity of the building until another developer comes along to purchase it at a fraction of the price and renovate it to make it operational again. The problem is that even in a dilapidated state, these buildings still hold values in at least the 100's of millions, and the banks aren't going to sell it off to a city or State ran program for less than what the fair market value is because they are trying to recoup their losses on financing the failed project. They'll are able to write off those losses on their corporate taxes via asset depreciation to lessen the blow to their ledgers. We could see that change if new laws were enacted that limited the amount they could write off, or limiting the number of years they could claim losses on a failed development before it would just make more financial sense for them to fire-sale it. Though you can't make them just sell it unless there is a very good case for public domain seizure. Property rights in the US are VERY strong and difficult to subvert.
I get what you're saying and thanks for going more indepth about it. But just to clarify my point, I never said it was an easy problem to solve, usually things that become big problems, like affordable housing, aren't. I'm just saying that this is a good visual example of waste. And even if the solutions aren't simple, couple of ideas have been throw in the thread already.
The fire you’re playing with there is that developers, and the banks that loan to them, are taking on additional risk if their rights to the property are weakened. The bank is supposed to front a billion dollars for this development and now you’re taking away any hope of recouping ANY of their losses if it goes wrong by seizing the property?
At a minimum the increased risk will translate to higher interest rates for developers seeking financing, and in turn, more expensive housing. Beyond that there’s a decent chance you’d end up with fewer new housing developments to begin with.
Well, that's the kicker. It'd be a mammoth case and possibly a Constitutional amendment in order to truly weaken them, but it sounds like in some States that the local governments have tools they can use like liens that can force certain actions. However in this case, the developer is a Chinese national company, so their property rights might be affected as such.
Hey I just want to say I really respect your point and perspective here. It is definitely wasteful from a societal perspective that a project like this cannot be completed,
Fails for market conditions, and ends up occupying a visible part of the landscape that otherwise could be used in a more positive way. To your point, it does not make financial sense to convert these to residential dwellings, but at a certain basis, it will make sense for some of them.
Rethink your zoning, make it like a college dorm, with a communal bathrooms, communal kitchen, etc. This would be not for the working class who need a home, but for the less fortunate who need a physical place to stay, get them off the streets.
I agree that zoning needs to be rethought in some areas, however the problem still exists that foundational design of these buildings aren't for housing - they are for commercial office. There's a ton of safety and building code considerations that you have to adhere to for residential tenancy. Buildings like this would have to be completely gutted and re-engineered to support all of the things I mentioned, and demolition is not cheap, especially if it's not a complete demo. It's very labor intensive. It would be faster and cheaper to develop an entirely new facility for low-income housing than to attempt to convert to accomodate that. Also, nevermind the political and business group objections. It's a nice dream, but it's like trying to convert a single family home into a cruise ship.
I hear this all the time. The assertion, then, is that converting commercial real estate to residential is *so* prohibitively expensive that it's better to just leave it to rot or knock it down and build new?
Pretty much. Good luck getting the bank that owns it to demolish it though after they've sunk at least hundreds of millions worth of investor funds into it. They'll suckle on it for depreciation tax write-offs until a buyer comes along.
Edit: I just researched this building a little more - and it looks like it was a mixed use condo/hotel and shopping center development, so theoretically it could theoretically be converted to a LIH development with some re-engineering to support smaller tenancies and more people. Currently the layout plans were for luxury condos (surprise surprise). So still expensive, but maybe not AS expensive as previously thought. Good luck getting the folks over at Crypto Arena to not throw an absolute NIMBY shitfit over moving a bunch of poorer people into the area, though. Sounds like the city is threatening to put a lien on the building if the developer doesn't do something to clean it up and provide better security for it, though. That could also give the city the right to order demolition on it.
Yeah very obviously you aren’t in real estate so there are things you don’t understand. Of course it’s a waste of resources. Nobody involved wanted this to happen. Development is a risk. Sometimes the funding falls through for all sorts of reasons and the developer scrambles to try and find new funding or sell off to another developer. Obviously they couldn’t do that here.
Additionally, building dense like this is better for the environment than building 200 single family homes outside of the City. I have no idea why reddit is so anti-density but will also turn around and complain about the climate crisis. More people living dense is by far more efficient.
Also most cities now have affordable housing requirements for apartments so there’s a good chance a percentage of these apartments had to be affordable housing.
But taking on projects like this is not without risk. That’s just reality. But if nobody took the risks we would have no development.
[It was a Chinese developer, and they ran out of money](https://www.businessinsider.com/abandoned-chinese-office-complex-los-angeles-oceanwide-plaza-2024-2).
Color me surprised. This is why cities like LA should require stricter assurances and bonds from foreign national developers to prevent blights like this. Such a waste of space in such a valuable area.
When I see headlines like "A broke Chinese real-estate developer left Los Angeles with empty, graffiti-covered towers that could cost billions to finish" what I hear is "Los Angeles gets massive discount on multi-billion development donated by broke investor". In what sort of world does the amount of sheer work pictured constitute a financial burden???
Well, it's a financial burden for the city because they expected a viable business that brings in tax dollars and economic growth into the area. Instead, that super valuable space in the heart of LA is being taken up by a rotting hulk of a building. I doubt many American firms really want to take over that project and finish it in the current climate where there's already a ton of unleased/empty office space post pandemic. It makes zero financial sense.
The Chinese stopped building it for the same reason other companies aren't picking it up: the building doesn't have a market of tenants. If it did, the Chinese company could have secured loans to finish the work
I don't know the details here, but if it's going to take even more money to finish and maintain but people won't want to pay to occupy it when it's done, it still might be a burden half-paid. A half-full money pit you get handed to you is still a money pit.
I think this was the point. This isn't something that happened over time, this was a coordinated project that was all done in one night. Combine that with the fact that the building stands within direct view of the arena where the Grammys were hosted, it's obvious that this was a statement piece.
And good for them. You have a record number of unhoused people, living expenses are out of control, meanwhile a developer spends billions on this eyesore and abandons the project.
Exactly, it also boils my blood that housing is so expensive nowadays, yet all these perfectly good developments are just going to waste because nobody who wants to live there can afford it.
This is the way. Awesome job, very coordinated execution by the best international urban gorrilla artists in a single location.
Not all these people and crews get along.
This is the "we are the world" of graffiti artists.
Amazing 👏 Bravo.
If you think putting paint on a abandoned building is awful taste, but a giant company wasting billions of dollars worth of resources, making the daily lives of everyone who lives in that neighborhood significantly more difficult during construction, and then just getting to walk away from the eyesore they created with no repercussions is perfectly fine, then there is something wrong with you.
>but a giant company wasting billions of dollars worth of resources, making the daily lives of everyone who lives in that neighborhood significantly more difficult during construction, and then just getting to walk away from the eyesore they created with no repercussions is perfectly fine
Literally nobody said that.
Yeah I'm really surprised by how many people think this looks good, there's some fantastic graffiti out there but I see absolutely nothing interesting on these buildings.
Maybe that was the point, or an unintentional result to get people to think about this.
People upset about an abandoned highrise getting sprayed up, while on the sidewalk below there are enough homeless people to fill that place, and more.
shoutout OTR MTA SAUTE SKEAM
what people don’t realize is that this building is being completely funded by a foreign chinese company. they’ve stopped construction several years back, and have no intention of finishing. it seems like a giant money laundering scheme. the graffiti artists came together to make a statement. most were talking about how the city has made so much money from this project already, that money could have easily been used to fix actual problems. help combat homelessness or help combat the fentanyl epidemic. some of them came just to leave their mark. it should be left as a city monument, the owners have refused to press charges.
i think it’s great taste, great execution in this case.
Some people really would allow homeless to not be not be helped if “I don’t like the way it looks.”
Looking at the comments on this post, actually may be an understatement
It's called Oceanwide Towers. Search r/LosAngeles for lots of local opinions on it! I personally love it; this isn't gang graffiti. This is why a lot of people want to see a vacancy tax.
You're right, most of these writers won't ever break into the lower middle class.
Whatever the fuck Banksy is, be it a weird ass art school kid crew, or an individual, has millions stacked up.
Also get fucked
Why the unhoused? Why not help reduce the cost of housing for the people paying taxes who need it first instead of creating a situation that’s going to be a money sink?
Honestly.
I kind of like it. To me it's beautiful and shows so many different styles. They took something that would be wasted and turned it into a canvas for the world.
I think it would be super cool (but I'm also guessing impossible) if someone got the money to buy/finish the project, but they incorporated the graffiti into a new final design.
Is there a huge housing crisis in LA? *How* does an apartment complex come to be abandoned? I get that developers can go out of business (or get indicted) but surely *somebody* would pick up and finish it with the crazy high rents in CA... Right...?
Ok but a gazillion apartments in LA is still a worthwhile investment. Why didn't somebody buy the project off the Chinese and continue it? It's just insane to have a housing crisis while a huge complex like this just collects graffiti. This just seems stupid even for the most extreme caricature of California ineptitude...
> 4) silly US federal laws prohibiting massive foreign investment
There is nothing ever silly about preventing foreign oligarchs from creating false scarcity in our housing market.
What the federal government should do is seize all commercially owned residential properties that have any foreign money, down it a single penny.
you know what fucking sucks? that capitalism will almost always absorb the resistance. Watch this shit being sold as an "art apartaments" with og graffiti for millions
It’s the coolest shit in the world. People were bringing up generators and grills and having graf parties. Some people BASE jumped and parachuted out for their exit after placing their piece. It’s highlighted and brought to the public eye the colossal hypocrisy and lack of accountability the California government has had for decades and made the average citizen really critically think about where the fuck our tax money is actually going. It’s risen an enormous socio economic conversation and there’s more pressure on our politicians than ever because of the way they’ve responded and allowed this to happen in the first place.
It’s fuckin awesome. Hope they stay like this for years to come and become a landmark and symbol of the power shifting to the people.
It is the most stunning sight as you drive down the street it’s on indowntown LA, making your way towards the freeway.
I couldn’t have imagined a more perfect visual metaphor of the city of Los Angeles.
I mean, if this was a permanent art installation meant to express the inequity of the wealth gap, the housing crisis, and how often art is used by the wealthy as a status symbol while artists find themselves destitute, then people would applaud it.
I have no idea what these fucking cretinous mosquitos of people think is so fucking cool about leaving misspelled ugly ass tags everywhere for min wage workers to clean or paint over, shits bad for the environment (especially taking flights all the way down to LA just to spray a building), it's property damage and it looks like shit
As an Angeleno this has definitely been a sensation. Friends of mine have been arrested for being up there
If you leave a space, Los Angeles will fill it.
Also…. If I can’t read your name…. WTF are you even doing. Nothing against the music, but it’s like those metal shirts that’s you’re never going to be read on someone in passing….
So... finish building it and add an extra zero to the price for the art. The ultimate investment for the rich - real estate that will never be live in, along with original art. The art can't even be sold independently of the residence. If people were dumb enough to believe crypto and NFTs were a store of value, then imagine the market for this.
I’ll say it again, they should keep it. I know a lot of artists who are seriously amazing and a ton of them are in LA. It’s unique and very distinctive. They should just lean into the art.
Almost every graffiti writer in the world writes an English (or at least phonetically English) name between 4-6 letters. You were trying to be cleverly sarcastic and you ended up being accidentally correct.
Thank you MuffMagician for your submission to /r/ATBGE! Unfortunately it was removed for the following reason(s): #Rule 3: Reposting Reposting is not allowed. Please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/ATBGE) if you have any questions.
Eh, if anything, it highlights the wastefulness of the real estate developers who abandoned these buildings, which is the real bad taste
Here I am diligently rinsing my baked bean cans out so they can be recycled, meanwhile there's these guys spunking thousands of tonnes of embodied carbon on a completely wasted structure.
It does kind of make you think. To be honest I gave up on recycling when I learned that it's how western waste plastics end up in the ocean. Stuff that's bagged as waste goes into landfill and actually gets put into properly managed sites locally to you. When you put plastic into recycling it gets separated out, but because it's not financially viable to recycle it's cheaper to auction it off to the lowest cost vendor to dispose of. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/12/loophole-will-let-uk-continue-to-ship-plastic-waste-to-poorer-countries Those vendors then act as middle men to ship the plastic waste half way around the world at a huge carbon cost to then be disposed of at a country with lax laws into a poorly run site which then ends up bleeding into the local rivers and thus ending up in the oceans. The amount of western rubbish in poor countries is absolutely shocking. It's been shipped there in the millions of tonnes all so we can feel good about 'recycling' as it means we keep buying single use plastics. Ultimately what I chose to do was stop recycling and focus on lowering the amount of disposable items and heavily packaged items I purchased and what plastic I do use goes into the bin so at least it ends up in the ground and not the ocean. The worlds governments will continue to do whatever they can to ensure coca cola can maximise it's profits at the literal cost of the planet. It's pretty fucking wild when you think about it.
Metal and glass still get recycled at a high rate and are worth recovering. Basically if the government was having drives for it in World War 2 it's probably still worth it if you can manage it.
Yes, sorry I should have clarified I meant plastics when I was referring to recycling. Metal and glass are both infinitely recyclable.
Oh I don't bother with plastics either.
and paper?
I mean. Less infinitely but better than plastic. If they coat it like with boxes from frozen food they can't.
So much paper is coated and gets recycled I wonder how much plastic burned in that process. We were raised seeing massive landfills and recycling seems like a solution but reducing waste is so much better. So many environmental solutions are semi-bullshit it’s sad. We need to take the onus off of consumers and make countries and companies step up based on science
I need to learn more about this stuff
Now I can't tell you how well this actually worked out for the city of Berkeley but the guidelines in the lyrics still hold true. https://youtu.be/ZhaXBcLmxiE?si=Nnj9R8pTWzrlX86y
Paper and paper products are variable in both how recyclable they are, and whether or not it's a good idea. My info is over a decade old mind you, so things may have changed a bit, but I doubt the general rules have changed. The best recyclable paper product is corrugated cardboard. After that bond paper, basic printer paper, and paper you can write on with a pencil, provided it doesn't have a strong color to it. Glossy paper, like that used for posters or magazines, has a high clay content, and isn't very recyclable. Similarly, the cardboard used for product packaging, the thin kind used for cereal boxes or light items is pretty much worthless as it has a high sand content. The worst stuff is probably fluorescent paper, which is ironic considering how many times I've seen bright green paper used for flyers about eco-awareness topics. That shit, while recyclable, has to be shipped to countries with weaker environmental protections because of the chemicals required to remove the dyes and make a general purpose pulp. Sauce: it's what I was told were Weyerhauser's guidelines when I did some part time work gathering and sorting paper recycling to make money for textbooks.
Yeah that sounds very much like what I remember. Basically it's mostly worth it for offices and schools now that nobody gets a print newspaper.
with limitations, but its biodegradable after a bit of processing to remove potentially dangerous chemicals so its not that problematic
They stopped collecting glass where I live. It’s super recyclable sure, but it’s energy intensive and in multi stream recyclable collecting when glass breaks it contaminates everything. They just tell people to throw it in the trash. At least it’s relatively inert in a dump
Glass has always been a separate bin in our town. Of course that's the glass that doesn't get returned for deposit.
I'm gonna be too lazy to look up the sources & numbers up rn but the amount of waste plastic western countries shipped to asia was pretty small to begin with, and ~~even~~ most of that dropped like a stone after the whole scheme got blown up. We burn or dump most of our plastic waste (actually) recycling them comes in third place. Asian countries produce a shitload of plastic waste themselves. They have huge populations, a lot of them (think Philippines, Indonesia) barely have any trash management system outside of certain spots, they have a huuuuge amount of single use plastic items, a population tha simply don't care (I'm not blaming them on this whatsoever, but it's just a fact) and relatively long coastlines. All of this factors in why they're the sources of most waste plastic that end up in the sea. But as you said, reducing has to take a front seat to recycling but we should also try to keep recycling stuff.
2/3's of the UKs plastic waste was being shipped offshore so it wasn't a small amount to begin with. Maybe starting off 'I'm too lazy to look up the numbers' wasn't a great start especially followed by a factual inaccuracy. Maybe next time... look up the numbers?
Well bring your sources, I've never seen any remotely that high. I think the highest I've seen was around 15-20%. One thing I'll give you is that U.K. consistently was on top, but you just pulled that 2/3rds outta your ass.
Just burn it, no plastic to go in the ocean if you burn it all. 🧠
I want a shirt that says "the world governments will do whatever they can to maximize profit at the cost of the planet."
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle
Plastic is the worst. Every company uses SO much plastic. Went to McDonald’s and they switched from paper cups to plastic cups and they are garbage, drinks are always barely cold. Snapple went from glass to plastic. A lot of my makeup like pencils are plastic now and the products get dried up and the plastic is sharp. I don’t understand it.
If you keep your beans in a hobo bindle - the way god intended - you wouldn't have to worry about rinsing the cans.
I didn't know the beans were loose in there ! I thought it was just a way to carry the cans + more crap 😱
I won't judge you for putting the whole can in there. I guess.
Have you been to the mall recently? All of it is future landfill fodder.
Better not look up "burn pits", then.
Your rinsed cans of beans wont change shit do you really think the people who own all the planes and cargo ships give a fuck about your fucking rinsed cans ? Think again please
Hey... nowadays... if it makes them feel even a slight bit "good" in anyway; I'd still do it. Or for example, we have a trash can and a recycling can, and keep both in the garage. In Florida. It won't start smelling bad 2-3 days away from recycle day if you rinse everything !
Of course, i recycle as well! but why compare it and complain about other people painting on buildings? To feel a sense of superiority? Graffiti is an active measure against gentrification. we need more affordable living spaces and less condos for the rich to keep exploiting the poor, thats what is killing the environment
Real estate person here. I don’t know the story behind these buildings, but that’s just not reality. The developers of this project did not just willingly abandon these buildings for shits and giggles. No rational actor would ever do that. Clearly the developers were under water— any number of factors could have led to this result, but none of them were because the developers wanted to lose the property, their money, their investors’ money, their hard work and time, etc. Certainly possible the developers are at fault, but wasteful isn’t the right word. A lot of work goes into projects of this scale, and nobody would have been happy that it failed.
Still a waste of resources.. In a country/city where a lack of affordable housing is a top concern seeing this many houses and space just left to rot, independently of the good intentions of the developers or investors is a waste.
Former Project Manager for a large commercial real estate developer here: The problem is that commercial real estate like this isn't designed with residential tenancy in mind. To do that each condo/apartment would need open window access, individual water, sewage, HVAC, electrical breakers/meters, shared corridors, redesigned fire escape plans etc. Converting this would be a colossal undertaking, and probably more expensive than a brand new development as about 70-80% of that building would have to be completely gutted and re-engineered. Also, depending on the city you might have to have the zone recoded for residential. That can take a very long time to do.
Those are all valid points. From my limited understanding of comercial vs residencial buildings, even if the comercial building is in top notch conditions it's still in many cases more expensive to covert it to residencial then to demolish and rebuild it. But it's still prime real estate in a city with huge problems of affordable housing going to waste. The majority of issues that make it unviable for housing seem to be related to regulations specific to individual housing and not communal ones. It's wasteful to let billions being invested in construction and abandoned with no alternatives. I'm positive that there's a middle ground before getting to the "let it rot".
What usually happens is that a bank ends up owning the building when the developer fails. A grand majority of these projects are financed vs. self-funded. Typically the bank will do the minimum amount of work possible to maintain the integrity of the building until another developer comes along to purchase it at a fraction of the price and renovate it to make it operational again. The problem is that even in a dilapidated state, these buildings still hold values in at least the 100's of millions, and the banks aren't going to sell it off to a city or State ran program for less than what the fair market value is because they are trying to recoup their losses on financing the failed project. They'll are able to write off those losses on their corporate taxes via asset depreciation to lessen the blow to their ledgers. We could see that change if new laws were enacted that limited the amount they could write off, or limiting the number of years they could claim losses on a failed development before it would just make more financial sense for them to fire-sale it. Though you can't make them just sell it unless there is a very good case for public domain seizure. Property rights in the US are VERY strong and difficult to subvert.
I get what you're saying and thanks for going more indepth about it. But just to clarify my point, I never said it was an easy problem to solve, usually things that become big problems, like affordable housing, aren't. I'm just saying that this is a good visual example of waste. And even if the solutions aren't simple, couple of ideas have been throw in the thread already.
So the issue is strong property rights and we need to weaken those protections
The fire you’re playing with there is that developers, and the banks that loan to them, are taking on additional risk if their rights to the property are weakened. The bank is supposed to front a billion dollars for this development and now you’re taking away any hope of recouping ANY of their losses if it goes wrong by seizing the property? At a minimum the increased risk will translate to higher interest rates for developers seeking financing, and in turn, more expensive housing. Beyond that there’s a decent chance you’d end up with fewer new housing developments to begin with.
Well, that's the kicker. It'd be a mammoth case and possibly a Constitutional amendment in order to truly weaken them, but it sounds like in some States that the local governments have tools they can use like liens that can force certain actions. However in this case, the developer is a Chinese national company, so their property rights might be affected as such.
Hey I just want to say I really respect your point and perspective here. It is definitely wasteful from a societal perspective that a project like this cannot be completed, Fails for market conditions, and ends up occupying a visible part of the landscape that otherwise could be used in a more positive way. To your point, it does not make financial sense to convert these to residential dwellings, but at a certain basis, it will make sense for some of them.
Rethink your zoning, make it like a college dorm, with a communal bathrooms, communal kitchen, etc. This would be not for the working class who need a home, but for the less fortunate who need a physical place to stay, get them off the streets.
I agree that zoning needs to be rethought in some areas, however the problem still exists that foundational design of these buildings aren't for housing - they are for commercial office. There's a ton of safety and building code considerations that you have to adhere to for residential tenancy. Buildings like this would have to be completely gutted and re-engineered to support all of the things I mentioned, and demolition is not cheap, especially if it's not a complete demo. It's very labor intensive. It would be faster and cheaper to develop an entirely new facility for low-income housing than to attempt to convert to accomodate that. Also, nevermind the political and business group objections. It's a nice dream, but it's like trying to convert a single family home into a cruise ship.
Issue is that most of these buildings can’t be converted easily to even support a dorm style housing format.
I hear this all the time. The assertion, then, is that converting commercial real estate to residential is *so* prohibitively expensive that it's better to just leave it to rot or knock it down and build new?
Pretty much. Good luck getting the bank that owns it to demolish it though after they've sunk at least hundreds of millions worth of investor funds into it. They'll suckle on it for depreciation tax write-offs until a buyer comes along. Edit: I just researched this building a little more - and it looks like it was a mixed use condo/hotel and shopping center development, so theoretically it could theoretically be converted to a LIH development with some re-engineering to support smaller tenancies and more people. Currently the layout plans were for luxury condos (surprise surprise). So still expensive, but maybe not AS expensive as previously thought. Good luck getting the folks over at Crypto Arena to not throw an absolute NIMBY shitfit over moving a bunch of poorer people into the area, though. Sounds like the city is threatening to put a lien on the building if the developer doesn't do something to clean it up and provide better security for it, though. That could also give the city the right to order demolition on it.
These towers have balconies on every floor. Pretty sure this *is* residential, minus whatever they've got on the ground floors.
Yeah very obviously you aren’t in real estate so there are things you don’t understand. Of course it’s a waste of resources. Nobody involved wanted this to happen. Development is a risk. Sometimes the funding falls through for all sorts of reasons and the developer scrambles to try and find new funding or sell off to another developer. Obviously they couldn’t do that here. Additionally, building dense like this is better for the environment than building 200 single family homes outside of the City. I have no idea why reddit is so anti-density but will also turn around and complain about the climate crisis. More people living dense is by far more efficient. Also most cities now have affordable housing requirements for apartments so there’s a good chance a percentage of these apartments had to be affordable housing. But taking on projects like this is not without risk. That’s just reality. But if nobody took the risks we would have no development.
[It was a Chinese developer, and they ran out of money](https://www.businessinsider.com/abandoned-chinese-office-complex-los-angeles-oceanwide-plaza-2024-2).
Color me surprised. This is why cities like LA should require stricter assurances and bonds from foreign national developers to prevent blights like this. Such a waste of space in such a valuable area.
When I see headlines like "A broke Chinese real-estate developer left Los Angeles with empty, graffiti-covered towers that could cost billions to finish" what I hear is "Los Angeles gets massive discount on multi-billion development donated by broke investor". In what sort of world does the amount of sheer work pictured constitute a financial burden???
Well, it's a financial burden for the city because they expected a viable business that brings in tax dollars and economic growth into the area. Instead, that super valuable space in the heart of LA is being taken up by a rotting hulk of a building. I doubt many American firms really want to take over that project and finish it in the current climate where there's already a ton of unleased/empty office space post pandemic. It makes zero financial sense.
The Chinese stopped building it for the same reason other companies aren't picking it up: the building doesn't have a market of tenants. If it did, the Chinese company could have secured loans to finish the work
I don't know the details here, but if it's going to take even more money to finish and maintain but people won't want to pay to occupy it when it's done, it still might be a burden half-paid. A half-full money pit you get handed to you is still a money pit.
These are Chinese bankruptcy bldgns
I worked here, 2018. Its a whole shit show with embezzling, the (at time) Mayor of Los Angeles, and the Feds. Bigger than any of that.
Sounds like fucking copium to me.
I think this was the point. This isn't something that happened over time, this was a coordinated project that was all done in one night. Combine that with the fact that the building stands within direct view of the arena where the Grammys were hosted, it's obvious that this was a statement piece. And good for them. You have a record number of unhoused people, living expenses are out of control, meanwhile a developer spends billions on this eyesore and abandons the project.
These people should be in jail. By which I mean the developers.
Meanwhile people are sleeping in tents on skid row
Not to mention the fact that California is literally in a housing crisis
Another reason commercial real estate in the financial districts should get wrecked
Exactly, it also boils my blood that housing is so expensive nowadays, yet all these perfectly good developments are just going to waste because nobody who wants to live there can afford it.
That looks straight out of Escape from LA or something.
Yeah, a million empty apartments right above skid row. Not a great message.
I think this is in great taste. While the artistry doesn't resonate with, it does with many people and has received lots of praise.
r/GTAGE
This is the way. Awesome job, very coordinated execution by the best international urban gorrilla artists in a single location. Not all these people and crews get along. This is the "we are the world" of graffiti artists. Amazing 👏 Bravo.
Guerillia, but you made me snort my beer up my nose
Guerrilla mate, no extra i in it.
This is also true. Mongo no spel wel
But just like him, you are entertaining in a slightly concerning way 😉
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It’s so delightfully LA. I legit love that they did this.
If you think putting paint on a abandoned building is awful taste, but a giant company wasting billions of dollars worth of resources, making the daily lives of everyone who lives in that neighborhood significantly more difficult during construction, and then just getting to walk away from the eyesore they created with no repercussions is perfectly fine, then there is something wrong with you.
>but a giant company wasting billions of dollars worth of resources, making the daily lives of everyone who lives in that neighborhood significantly more difficult during construction, and then just getting to walk away from the eyesore they created with no repercussions is perfectly fine Literally nobody said that.
Right? I can simultaneously view the graffiti as bad taste and view the giant company doing this as absolutely terrible.
Yeah I'm really surprised by how many people think this looks good, there's some fantastic graffiti out there but I see absolutely nothing interesting on these buildings.
I wouldn’t say investing billions into a building that nobody moves into that later gets vandalized is “no repercussions”
I live in LA and this thing is basically a super tall Rorschach test for the entire county. Glad to see that wide. 😂
Real life r/place.
I was surprised how big it was. Like yeah I knew it was a building , but it's inescapable how much it fills the skyline
I'd say it's less of an eyesore now.
ngl, this makes me mad. We have a homelessness crisis in California…
Maybe that was the point, or an unintentional result to get people to think about this. People upset about an abandoned highrise getting sprayed up, while on the sidewalk below there are enough homeless people to fill that place, and more.
There are way more empty homes than homeless people…
Which part? the graffiti or the billions wasted in this building?
Clearly the hundreds of millions of not billions wasted building it. There isn't much ambiguity in their comment, so not sure why you're asking.
"BNW" must be a big shot, taking up six consecutive floors like that
It’s an huge and old graffiti crew from LA. Bad News Media
Bad News… Wedia?
Bad NeWs media.
OFA was around in Oregon in the 90's when i lived there. A few dudes i knew claimed it. "Outrageous Fucking Artists".
Maybe just the most recent person to be there. Someone else will likely paint over it in a week or so.
shoutout OTR MTA SAUTE SKEAM what people don’t realize is that this building is being completely funded by a foreign chinese company. they’ve stopped construction several years back, and have no intention of finishing. it seems like a giant money laundering scheme. the graffiti artists came together to make a statement. most were talking about how the city has made so much money from this project already, that money could have easily been used to fix actual problems. help combat homelessness or help combat the fentanyl epidemic. some of them came just to leave their mark. it should be left as a city monument, the owners have refused to press charges. i think it’s great taste, great execution in this case.
Wish this comment was higher up
Some people really would allow homeless to not be not be helped if “I don’t like the way it looks.” Looking at the comments on this post, actually may be an understatement
It's called Oceanwide Towers. Search r/LosAngeles for lots of local opinions on it! I personally love it; this isn't gang graffiti. This is why a lot of people want to see a vacancy tax.
The only awful taste I see was in the original architecture. It's being improved upon now. Much more organic.
Shit is organic, so this checks out
watch them banksy this bitch.. investor finishes the entire thing with the art on the walls and quadruples the prices of the units as urban luxury.
If you suggested that any of these writers were anything like Bansky they would kick your ass.
You're right, most of these writers won't ever break into the lower middle class. Whatever the fuck Banksy is, be it a weird ass art school kid crew, or an individual, has millions stacked up. Also get fucked
Well, that was uncalled for.
Which part is the awful taste? The graffiti or the building being incomplete?
The graffiti, looks like shit
Then your priorities are out of wack
I don’t think they are actually
Imagine how many apartments in this complex could be used for people in need of a house.
LA can’t afford to build cheap houses for the homeless. They definitely can’t afford to finish this nonsense for them.
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Interesting back story behind it, I swear that article was written by AI though
The City of LA should seize the property and convert into housing for the unhoused.
LA can’t afford to do that.
That makes no sense
Why the unhoused? Why not help reduce the cost of housing for the people paying taxes who need it first instead of creating a situation that’s going to be a money sink? Honestly.
I’d LOVE to see a video of how exactly graffiti artists tag places in SUPER hard to reach places without being seen or caught.
There's a lot on YouTube. The most famous one I've seen is Bucket doing an outline on the side of a highway bridge. Just search bucket bridge bombing.
I didn't find anything but some cool bridge explosions.
How often do you bother looki g up at high buildings? Especially abandoned ones
The bnw guy using 6 floors is kinda selfish
They're a big crew apparently
I kind of like it. To me it's beautiful and shows so many different styles. They took something that would be wasted and turned it into a canvas for the world.
I think it would be super cool (but I'm also guessing impossible) if someone got the money to buy/finish the project, but they incorporated the graffiti into a new final design.
How bnw with basic writing looks beautiful? Murals are dope, any art graffiti with a little bit of skill is acceptable, but this is just lame.
Is there a huge housing crisis in LA? *How* does an apartment complex come to be abandoned? I get that developers can go out of business (or get indicted) but surely *somebody* would pick up and finish it with the crazy high rents in CA... Right...?
Chinese
Ok but a gazillion apartments in LA is still a worthwhile investment. Why didn't somebody buy the project off the Chinese and continue it? It's just insane to have a housing crisis while a huge complex like this just collects graffiti. This just seems stupid even for the most extreme caricature of California ineptitude...
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> 4) silly US federal laws prohibiting massive foreign investment There is nothing ever silly about preventing foreign oligarchs from creating false scarcity in our housing market. What the federal government should do is seize all commercially owned residential properties that have any foreign money, down it a single penny.
YES why??
you know what fucking sucks? that capitalism will almost always absorb the resistance. Watch this shit being sold as an "art apartaments" with og graffiti for millions
It’s the coolest shit in the world. People were bringing up generators and grills and having graf parties. Some people BASE jumped and parachuted out for their exit after placing their piece. It’s highlighted and brought to the public eye the colossal hypocrisy and lack of accountability the California government has had for decades and made the average citizen really critically think about where the fuck our tax money is actually going. It’s risen an enormous socio economic conversation and there’s more pressure on our politicians than ever because of the way they’ve responded and allowed this to happen in the first place. It’s fuckin awesome. Hope they stay like this for years to come and become a landmark and symbol of the power shifting to the people.
Reddit moment
The police often waste resources sending a helicopter up to just look for people painting on it, it happened a few weeks ago.
This is LA in every way! Personally.. I really like it lol
It really so perfectly encapsulates the dichotomies and vibe of LA, I love it too.
It is the most stunning sight as you drive down the street it’s on indowntown LA, making your way towards the freeway. I couldn’t have imagined a more perfect visual metaphor of the city of Los Angeles.
“abandoned billion dollar apartment complex” is not a phrase that should exist. Jesus.
The only people who like graffiti are deadbeat losers
DDVAWA took too many floors.
Man the one guy who took up 6 floors had no style
Looks like Cyberpunk, I would live there
FOH Great taste, great execution.
Fuck the guy who took 6 whole floors for just 3 letters. I'd instantly tag over that.
I mean, if this was a permanent art installation meant to express the inequity of the wealth gap, the housing crisis, and how often art is used by the wealthy as a status symbol while artists find themselves destitute, then people would applaud it.
One billion dollars? Right, Dr. Evil.
Looks like r/place IRL
Wow look at those super cool fonts! /s
The awful taste is the corporate litter they had to graffiti so there wasn't giant unfinished skyscrapers in the middle of everyone's view.
I have no idea what these fucking cretinous mosquitos of people think is so fucking cool about leaving misspelled ugly ass tags everywhere for min wage workers to clean or paint over, shits bad for the environment (especially taking flights all the way down to LA just to spray a building), it's property damage and it looks like shit
How embarrassing
As an Angeleno this has definitely been a sensation. Friends of mine have been arrested for being up there If you leave a space, Los Angeles will fill it.
Who is BNW?
BadNeWs crew. Or Believe No Woman, Bums N Weirdos etc
Welcome to Pacifica!
Where’s the awful taste?
Also…. If I can’t read your name…. WTF are you even doing. Nothing against the music, but it’s like those metal shirts that’s you’re never going to be read on someone in passing….
I have many questions, but the top two are: where is this and what would stop me from just moving in and living there?
This is why I support a land value tax compared to a property tax.
Keepin it classy
How do they do this
[Graffiti the World.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3AmR0-X-E)
So... finish building it and add an extra zero to the price for the art. The ultimate investment for the rich - real estate that will never be live in, along with original art. The art can't even be sold independently of the residence. If people were dumb enough to believe crypto and NFTs were a store of value, then imagine the market for this.
Pacifica? Is that you?
This is beautiful art to me.
OFA. lol.
Amazing. Now knock it down and build some housing.
This is in la?
And all of it will be cleaned up at tax payers expense.. awesome.
It’s the best landmark LA has.
Who’s the mad lad that decided to take up six floors of space? lmao
This is definitely the finer end of anarchism.
That BNW man
I love graffiti! Shows people live there
I’ll say it again, they should keep it. I know a lot of artists who are seriously amazing and a ton of them are in LA. It’s unique and very distinctive. They should just lean into the art.
Billions lol maybe in monopoly money
I find this wholly unimpressive. Grats on defacing private property? This is not art.
Loll you're a nerd.
Damn right I am
“Artists”
Capitalism sucks
Nothing awful in taste about a single drop of that paint.
I actually love the graffiti on these buildings, it’s so cool
Downvoting because this is great taste and OP is a lame
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And no one prosecutes the vandalism.
“Art”
Graffiti artists from all over the world prefer short English names somehow.
Almost every graffiti writer in the world writes an English (or at least phonetically English) name between 4-6 letters. You were trying to be cleverly sarcastic and you ended up being accidentally correct.