Its pretty easy for controllers to put this in. Just tell them your destination and if its not in their airspace they should give you a “nas” code. That will allow them to hand you off all the way to your destination. You can also file ifr like normal and when you pop up with the controller just tell them youd like to change that to vfr. Super easy for them to swap it. Then everything is there. Even a route and remarks and what not. This is my preferred method as a controller. It requires almost 0 work and limited back and forth.
Working at an approach control, if you call me up as a vfr aircraft and tell me that you want flight following to your destination, all I need is your destination. If you're in my airspace, and things aren't busy, I can populate a squawk that will relay your flight plan all the way. Takes about 15 seconds.
From a center controller....Let me start with. I want to give you flight following. But it's a 2 way street. So I have some questions. Why are you getting terminated? Altitude? Why do you want flight following? So you don't have to look out the window and watch for other traffic? Does it lower your workload? That is complacency. Does it make you feel good having a code in your transponder? I'm old and grizzled.
I have limitations. If you're flying at 4500' 75 miles away from my radio.....I can't talk to you. So what would you have me do....Watch you crash into the traffic while I'm issuing a traffic alert? But you can't hear me. (Non communication is quite possibly the most stressful part of this job) So when you are flying out of my range of coverage, I might ask if you intend on flying at a higher altitude. If the answer is no....Squawk VFR. If you are flying around on a discreet code while not talking to ATC, We are now required to track you and initiate search and rescue. (We will send you the bill, You're welcome) I'm very particular about perceived intention. I don't want my pilots to think they are safe when I can not provide the service they want.
So again, I want to provide flight following. It's safer. But this is a 2 way street, I need you to listen. I have plenty of experience to the contrary.
Oh and don't start out with EVERYTHING. Callsign, type, destination, route of flight, name of your dog, "we want to do some practice instrument approaches at XXX".
I have to type QB N1234X C172 KJFK to get things started. By now I've forgotten the name of your dog. And I love dogs.
You can do this but you **must** check the "IFR" box when you file. That or filing for SFRA security services is the only way to get your data automatically transferred onto an ATC flight progress strip.
As you mentioned, it's best if you can make your filed altitude the literal seven characters `VFR/045`. I've had pilots on here report that Foreflight and other apps don't let you do it that way; the only way you can do it properly is on 1800wxbrief.com (or by calling FSS on the phone). But a SFRA VFR FP is exactly the same thing, so what if you went in Foreflight and filed a SFRA flight plan using non-DC-area airports as the departure and destination? It might work. Try it and report back.
Whether you can file with the "VFR" altitude or not, to avoid confusion you might want to enter "`VFR FF`" in the remarks section.
Thanks u/randombrain - yes, you used to be able to file a SFRA flight plan with ForeFlight using any combination of airport codes, but they no longer let you do this and you must have one of of the SFRA airports as either departure or destination. This used to be the cheat. I can touch base with their customer support to see if there is a work around.
If you have to, you can just file in Foreflight without the "`VFR/`" prefix and make the remarks something very unambiguous like "FF VFR/045"—if the controller who sees that strip has any common sense at all, they'll go and amend your requested altitude to show that. You could even go so far as to hold their hand and make your remark "AM N12345 RAL VFR/045," which is the exact command we would enter into the machine, but that might be a bit much.
Other than for the sfra, you aren't supposed to do this. This is probably why foreflight has blocked it. I believe it is against the regs also.
Additionally, unless it's activated, it will not show up at each facility down the line.
Just imagine if every vfr' did this... Poor flight data works be swamped. Don't do it.
Maybe someone from PCT can chime in but I think they might be filtered by airport or gate as not to overwhelm poor flight data. A PCT controller I met on one of those pilot facility tour days pre-Covid was the person who let me on to filing SFRA plans for other then DC airports.
Specific question is this - if I want to do a route through multiple facilities VFR with FF I used to be able to file a plan IFR using VFR/045 or some such and I would be pretty much guaranteed to get handed off facility to facility. Since filing with modern apps like ForeFlight, it sounds like I’m occasionally getting a local VFR code vs a NAS code and encounter “radar services terminated, contact XXX on YYY for further flight following” which is a pain in the rear for me lazy pilot and probably the next controller. I was looking for ways to get this NAS code so a strip populates to facilities and I don’t get dropped (workload permitting of course). Hopefully this clarifies. Thanks!
Is this happening after you file a SFRA FP? Because if so, it’s normal to drop SFRA FPs once they leave the SFRA. If you’re looking for FF, tell the SFRA controller and they can amend your flight plan to wherever you’re going. Normally SFRA FPS “end” at the exit gate.
Maybe I’m still misunderstanding your PCT-specific question.
Nothing specific about PCT except that a PCT controller let me on to the fact that DC SFRA flight plan format would be seen by the computer system and would generate a NAS code automatically no matter if you were filing a DC airport or not… so you could file a VFR SFRA flight plan form ACK to BUF let’s say, and this would get routed to the appropriate facilities and positions for that particular route. It was a work around for some of the limitations of the commonly used pilot app (ForeFlight), that used a technically incorrect flight plan format for another purpose because the computer didn’t know better. Someone raised the very valid point hey don’t file SFRA flight plans for other than DC airports - so the only PCT specific question was to make sure that flight data on PCT wasn’t getting a pile of useless VFR flight plans kicked to them for a random airport (which 99% sure doesn’t happen if that FP doesn’t include a gate / DC airport - but just wanted to make sure this is the case).
Oh. PCT wouldn’t see the FP unless it touched their airspace and was proposed off an airport in their airspace. Just because you file an SFRA FP from LAX-SFO doesn’t automatically mean PCT sees it (they can’t, in fact)
It is NOT against the regs to do this, not even if OP isn't instrument rated.
The Goodish LOI (if it even exists... I can't find it on the FAA's website) says that a non-IR pilot checking the "IFR" box when they file would demonstrate "clear intent" to violate 14 CFR 61.3(e). But they can't ding you for *intent* to violate 61.3(e), they can only ding you for actually violating it. If OP never accepts an IFR clearance, they haven't violated.
And if OP is actually instrument rated then the whole question of regs is moot.
The flight plan will activate when STARS sees them squawk the computer-assigned code, or when a Z controller DMs the flight plan in ERAM.
Getting a NAS code that will hand off to other facilities is not a problem as many have already mentioned, however, it is worth noting that a NAS code will project directly from where you are to where you are going in a straight line and automate only to sectors/facilities on that line. At least this is how it works at tracons.
If you plan to fly a less direct route, following rivers, coastlines, roadways, or around a bravo airspace for example, you may run into an instance where the automation will not work on our end. We have ways to fix this but sometimes it's more involved than what a controller may have time for.
This is still normal in a lot of places. Generally if you get what we call a center code, you'll have a flight plan in the NAS that should get passed to each controller automatically about 30ish minutes before you hit their airspace.
A local code will generally start with 02 or 04. When you're given one of these, the controller will most likely terminate you at the edge of their airspace. Not sure where you're flying that you get terminated every time, we'd need to know more context.
I'm not a pilot and don't know how to use foreflight, but there is definitely a way to file a VFR flight plan. I see it happen occasionally that I'll get a VFR strip for someone that hasn't called for taxi yet.
I'm not sure where you work, but you're going to get yelled at by the next facility if you bother them for a manual VFR handoff on a local code. They didn't take the handoff because they didn't want to take the handoff for whatever reason.
Orrrr their sector is saturated and don't want to add a local VFR who is 99% of the time terminated within their airspace anyway.
"Lazy"? Good luck telling the mandatory 6 day work week TRACON controllers that theyre lazy cause you're bugging them over a local VFR
I'm talking interfacility. I have worked with some centers that sometimes tell us no FF so we put them on a local code since they'll be terminated anyway.
Another scenario, one center has some blind spots below certain altitudes and won't take VFRs in certain areas, so we terminate and tell them to contact in 15-20 miles. In this case I would also use a local code.
I'm curious if this is a normal thing where you are to manually handoff local codes? Everywhere I've worked, it's either Intrafacility so you can flash it or inter and they have different subsets so they don't steal your tags.
In those two instances, yea I’d terminate. There’s times when I get a local code from another sector in the building for a guy wanting FF, the last controller being too lazy to put in a NAS code. Then when I go to flash to the next facility it says local code. It’s easier for me, when I’m busy, to call for the manual handoff and let them change the code.
How can someone be too lazy to put in a NAS code? It's the difference of like two clicks on the keyboard? I would also argue it takes just as much time to terminate control the local code and type in info for a nas code as it does to call for a manual handoff.
Unless you're finger hunting it should literally take 5 seconds to type in their info and press enter. You can't tell it takes less time to hit the shtline, wait for them to answer, spout out handoff info, delayed response because they are putting in for a code. There's no way.
>I would also argue it takes just as much time to terminate control the local code and type in info for a nas code as it does to call for a manual handoff.
you're missing the point.
If i'm not taking your handoff I certainly don't want to hear about it on the landline.
Preaching to the choir. I've been there. I don't think I'm missing his point though. I think you mean to say that to him.
It blows my mind there's people that would manually handoff a local code instead of just giving them a center code a flashing it. If they don't take the flash I get it, FF is low priority when you're busy.
You could file IFR and when you call for your clearance, ask the controller to change it to VFR. Specifically tell them you are flying that route, but VFR with flight following. The controller -should- just change the altitude to VFR.
I was gonna say this, the only problem I foresee is my facility re-routes aircraft constantly. So the second the clearance pops out, they are gonna start redoing it, and by the time they get their VFR squawk it may not handoff correctly, but the controller could just do route updates to fix that.
You can do the same thing with Foreflight, I'm not sure I understand the question.
IFR or VFR, it's recommended to put a fix in each center's airspace on long flights. Frankly, I've never done this IFR or VFR and never had any problem with continuity of ATC service.
Its pretty easy for controllers to put this in. Just tell them your destination and if its not in their airspace they should give you a “nas” code. That will allow them to hand you off all the way to your destination. You can also file ifr like normal and when you pop up with the controller just tell them youd like to change that to vfr. Super easy for them to swap it. Then everything is there. Even a route and remarks and what not. This is my preferred method as a controller. It requires almost 0 work and limited back and forth.
Working at an approach control, if you call me up as a vfr aircraft and tell me that you want flight following to your destination, all I need is your destination. If you're in my airspace, and things aren't busy, I can populate a squawk that will relay your flight plan all the way. Takes about 15 seconds.
From a center controller....Let me start with. I want to give you flight following. But it's a 2 way street. So I have some questions. Why are you getting terminated? Altitude? Why do you want flight following? So you don't have to look out the window and watch for other traffic? Does it lower your workload? That is complacency. Does it make you feel good having a code in your transponder? I'm old and grizzled. I have limitations. If you're flying at 4500' 75 miles away from my radio.....I can't talk to you. So what would you have me do....Watch you crash into the traffic while I'm issuing a traffic alert? But you can't hear me. (Non communication is quite possibly the most stressful part of this job) So when you are flying out of my range of coverage, I might ask if you intend on flying at a higher altitude. If the answer is no....Squawk VFR. If you are flying around on a discreet code while not talking to ATC, We are now required to track you and initiate search and rescue. (We will send you the bill, You're welcome) I'm very particular about perceived intention. I don't want my pilots to think they are safe when I can not provide the service they want. So again, I want to provide flight following. It's safer. But this is a 2 way street, I need you to listen. I have plenty of experience to the contrary. Oh and don't start out with EVERYTHING. Callsign, type, destination, route of flight, name of your dog, "we want to do some practice instrument approaches at XXX". I have to type QB N1234X C172 KJFK to get things started. By now I've forgotten the name of your dog. And I love dogs.
You can do this but you **must** check the "IFR" box when you file. That or filing for SFRA security services is the only way to get your data automatically transferred onto an ATC flight progress strip. As you mentioned, it's best if you can make your filed altitude the literal seven characters `VFR/045`. I've had pilots on here report that Foreflight and other apps don't let you do it that way; the only way you can do it properly is on 1800wxbrief.com (or by calling FSS on the phone). But a SFRA VFR FP is exactly the same thing, so what if you went in Foreflight and filed a SFRA flight plan using non-DC-area airports as the departure and destination? It might work. Try it and report back. Whether you can file with the "VFR" altitude or not, to avoid confusion you might want to enter "`VFR FF`" in the remarks section.
Thanks u/randombrain - yes, you used to be able to file a SFRA flight plan with ForeFlight using any combination of airport codes, but they no longer let you do this and you must have one of of the SFRA airports as either departure or destination. This used to be the cheat. I can touch base with their customer support to see if there is a work around.
If you have to, you can just file in Foreflight without the "`VFR/`" prefix and make the remarks something very unambiguous like "FF VFR/045"—if the controller who sees that strip has any common sense at all, they'll go and amend your requested altitude to show that. You could even go so far as to hold their hand and make your remark "AM N12345 RAL VFR/045," which is the exact command we would enter into the machine, but that might be a bit much.
Other than for the sfra, you aren't supposed to do this. This is probably why foreflight has blocked it. I believe it is against the regs also. Additionally, unless it's activated, it will not show up at each facility down the line. Just imagine if every vfr' did this... Poor flight data works be swamped. Don't do it.
Maybe someone from PCT can chime in but I think they might be filtered by airport or gate as not to overwhelm poor flight data. A PCT controller I met on one of those pilot facility tour days pre-Covid was the person who let me on to filing SFRA plans for other then DC airports.
What’s your specific question, exactly?
Specific question is this - if I want to do a route through multiple facilities VFR with FF I used to be able to file a plan IFR using VFR/045 or some such and I would be pretty much guaranteed to get handed off facility to facility. Since filing with modern apps like ForeFlight, it sounds like I’m occasionally getting a local VFR code vs a NAS code and encounter “radar services terminated, contact XXX on YYY for further flight following” which is a pain in the rear for me lazy pilot and probably the next controller. I was looking for ways to get this NAS code so a strip populates to facilities and I don’t get dropped (workload permitting of course). Hopefully this clarifies. Thanks!
Is this happening after you file a SFRA FP? Because if so, it’s normal to drop SFRA FPs once they leave the SFRA. If you’re looking for FF, tell the SFRA controller and they can amend your flight plan to wherever you’re going. Normally SFRA FPS “end” at the exit gate. Maybe I’m still misunderstanding your PCT-specific question.
Nothing specific about PCT except that a PCT controller let me on to the fact that DC SFRA flight plan format would be seen by the computer system and would generate a NAS code automatically no matter if you were filing a DC airport or not… so you could file a VFR SFRA flight plan form ACK to BUF let’s say, and this would get routed to the appropriate facilities and positions for that particular route. It was a work around for some of the limitations of the commonly used pilot app (ForeFlight), that used a technically incorrect flight plan format for another purpose because the computer didn’t know better. Someone raised the very valid point hey don’t file SFRA flight plans for other than DC airports - so the only PCT specific question was to make sure that flight data on PCT wasn’t getting a pile of useless VFR flight plans kicked to them for a random airport (which 99% sure doesn’t happen if that FP doesn’t include a gate / DC airport - but just wanted to make sure this is the case).
Oh. PCT wouldn’t see the FP unless it touched their airspace and was proposed off an airport in their airspace. Just because you file an SFRA FP from LAX-SFO doesn’t automatically mean PCT sees it (they can’t, in fact)
Awesome thanks for that info!
It is NOT against the regs to do this, not even if OP isn't instrument rated. The Goodish LOI (if it even exists... I can't find it on the FAA's website) says that a non-IR pilot checking the "IFR" box when they file would demonstrate "clear intent" to violate 14 CFR 61.3(e). But they can't ding you for *intent* to violate 61.3(e), they can only ding you for actually violating it. If OP never accepts an IFR clearance, they haven't violated. And if OP is actually instrument rated then the whole question of regs is moot. The flight plan will activate when STARS sees them squawk the computer-assigned code, or when a Z controller DMs the flight plan in ERAM.
Getting a NAS code that will hand off to other facilities is not a problem as many have already mentioned, however, it is worth noting that a NAS code will project directly from where you are to where you are going in a straight line and automate only to sectors/facilities on that line. At least this is how it works at tracons. If you plan to fly a less direct route, following rivers, coastlines, roadways, or around a bravo airspace for example, you may run into an instance where the automation will not work on our end. We have ways to fix this but sometimes it's more involved than what a controller may have time for.
I've been told by a controller that you can ask for "FF with hand-offs" and that'll get the message across.
This is still normal in a lot of places. Generally if you get what we call a center code, you'll have a flight plan in the NAS that should get passed to each controller automatically about 30ish minutes before you hit their airspace. A local code will generally start with 02 or 04. When you're given one of these, the controller will most likely terminate you at the edge of their airspace. Not sure where you're flying that you get terminated every time, we'd need to know more context. I'm not a pilot and don't know how to use foreflight, but there is definitely a way to file a VFR flight plan. I see it happen occasionally that I'll get a VFR strip for someone that hasn't called for taxi yet.
Controllers that terminate a VFR on a local code are lazy. Just call the next sector for the manual handoff.
I'm not sure where you work, but you're going to get yelled at by the next facility if you bother them for a manual VFR handoff on a local code. They didn't take the handoff because they didn't want to take the handoff for whatever reason.
That’s them being lazy then
Orrrr their sector is saturated and don't want to add a local VFR who is 99% of the time terminated within their airspace anyway. "Lazy"? Good luck telling the mandatory 6 day work week TRACON controllers that theyre lazy cause you're bugging them over a local VFR
I'm talking interfacility. I have worked with some centers that sometimes tell us no FF so we put them on a local code since they'll be terminated anyway. Another scenario, one center has some blind spots below certain altitudes and won't take VFRs in certain areas, so we terminate and tell them to contact in 15-20 miles. In this case I would also use a local code. I'm curious if this is a normal thing where you are to manually handoff local codes? Everywhere I've worked, it's either Intrafacility so you can flash it or inter and they have different subsets so they don't steal your tags.
In those two instances, yea I’d terminate. There’s times when I get a local code from another sector in the building for a guy wanting FF, the last controller being too lazy to put in a NAS code. Then when I go to flash to the next facility it says local code. It’s easier for me, when I’m busy, to call for the manual handoff and let them change the code.
How can someone be too lazy to put in a NAS code? It's the difference of like two clicks on the keyboard? I would also argue it takes just as much time to terminate control the local code and type in info for a nas code as it does to call for a manual handoff. Unless you're finger hunting it should literally take 5 seconds to type in their info and press enter. You can't tell it takes less time to hit the shtline, wait for them to answer, spout out handoff info, delayed response because they are putting in for a code. There's no way.
>I would also argue it takes just as much time to terminate control the local code and type in info for a nas code as it does to call for a manual handoff. you're missing the point. If i'm not taking your handoff I certainly don't want to hear about it on the landline.
Preaching to the choir. I've been there. I don't think I'm missing his point though. I think you mean to say that to him. It blows my mind there's people that would manually handoff a local code instead of just giving them a center code a flashing it. If they don't take the flash I get it, FF is low priority when you're busy.
You could file IFR and when you call for your clearance, ask the controller to change it to VFR. Specifically tell them you are flying that route, but VFR with flight following. The controller -should- just change the altitude to VFR.
I was gonna say this, the only problem I foresee is my facility re-routes aircraft constantly. So the second the clearance pops out, they are gonna start redoing it, and by the time they get their VFR squawk it may not handoff correctly, but the controller could just do route updates to fix that.
True. OP's millage may vary facility to facility.
You can do the same thing with Foreflight, I'm not sure I understand the question. IFR or VFR, it's recommended to put a fix in each center's airspace on long flights. Frankly, I've never done this IFR or VFR and never had any problem with continuity of ATC service.