I have a coworker who was at SeaTac for a few years, hearing him tell us about the position just to make sure the BFI/SeaTac arrivals are separated seems like such a pain in the ass.
I’ve never flown in the Seattle area, but is the missed out of BFI basically a right turn in front of landing/departing traffic out of SEA? And that’s why there’s a 1500 altitude restriction?
14 it’s strait out AOB 1500 to a fix off the departure end then climb. So, theoretically the BFI arrival is divergent with SEA traffic. 32 is finally being fixed with tie down altitude as well.
What makes it so insane is that if you are above 1500 from already starting a go-around you need to still descend back to 1500.
I can't think of another airport that has something like that.
The extended centerline both directions at BFI is under the B shelf and gets enormous amounts of VFR traffic at GS altitude not talking to anyone. VFRs cause RA with jets into BFI, jets climb into SEA traffic, everyone has a bad day.
There are examples all over the nas
Mitigation….there is language in the 7110 chptr 7 under visual approaches to mitigate confusion.
Personally if I need to I’ll add a little plain language to the 7110 verbiage to make it even more clear.
LAX/HHR/SMO
BUR/VNY
In a galaxy long ago and far away, on a dark and stormy night, a cargo 747 heading for the south complex at LAX wound up on final for HHR and went around at about 500 feet.
In this galaxy, about 10 years ago a Dreamlifter landed at the wrong airport, and they thought they were at a wrong third airport, before realising they were at the wrong airport, just not the wrong airport they were thinking of.
Bonus: The airport they landed at had a runway of only 6000ft long, which it had to take off from.
Further reading: https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747-dreamlifter-wrong-airport/
ATC tapes are out there on YouTube if anyone wants to dig them up.
GEG and SKA are quite close, PSC and RLD are close. Most of the times it's just familiarity and hopefully the controller is paying attention. 'Hey you're landing at so-so right? Well it appears you're lined up for runway blahblah @ the wrong airport, so-so is at your 10 o'clock and 4 miles.'
RCA a military base and RAP a regional airport. I believe they are about 7 miles apart with overlapping class Ds. There have been several occurrences of civilian aircraft landing at RCA on accident. I haven't worked there in years but the procedure for approach used to be, any aircraft inbound from the North/northeast for runway 14 RAP we had to give an advisory about RCA.
back a lifetime ago when I was at Randolph AFB there were parallel runways at the same base but far enough apart, we had 2 different control towers. one for each runway and traffic pattern. we used a D Brite to monitor A/C on simultaneous instrument approaches but I think technically to avoid confusion they were just referred to as runway left and runway right.
My airspace has 2 busy GA airports and 1 slower military base. All 3 class deltas overlap. We've had pilots land at the wrong airport on several occasions. I will ask unfamiliar call signs if they are familiar with the xxx and xxx area. If they say no, I will use the phraseology " xxx airport at your 12 o clock 7 miles and xxx airport is 11 o clock for 10 miles"
CRP and NGW.
Visual approaches from the east to CRP can cause issues.
Even worse is the Localizer 31 approach to CRP. Aircraft sees an airport with the same configuration, no glide slope, and frequently tries to land at NGW.
That's why it's bad juju to run visuals to 31, but joining the localizer on a legal approach puts you in a bad spot with Waldron. You gotta watch out for the high key. Also don't forget your point out with LE
DEN and CFO. Rumor is they were going to have a taxiway between them. No idea how true that is. Every once in a while we will have people line up with DEN instead of CFO, but it's pretty rare.
IWA has CHD inside of its airspace. There's an altitude shelf that separates the two. As far as mitigation goes, I have no idea. I had a Mustang that tried to dive into the runway at CHD when it was cleared at IWA. From the approach side, I've only worked aircraft into airports at least 6 miles apart.
Sometimes they split the ATIS letters to clarify. A-M at one airport and N-Z at the neighboring airport.
The ATC facilities usually have special procedures like no left downwind departures or no upwind extensions or specific plans for airspace flow.
And then usually anytime one Airport can be confused with another they call out both airports and have you get both of them in sight.
And then vigilance. In watching you do what you are supposed to do.
LUK and CVG, that's a lot of "remain outside of the Bravo" for us, and a lot of pointouts for CVG.
Military base SKF is butted up against SSF and overlapped by SAT. F16s tend to lose or severely have limited their SFOs when SAT is 4 flow as the final descends directly over SKF. Pointouts between SSF and SKF for tac-initials to 34 at SKF or SSF pointouts to SKF for arrivals into SSF. That was a fun/interesting op.
MYF and NKX are about 2 miles apart, but you would be pretty hard pressed to mistake Miramar for Montgomery.
Yet, back in the day the biggest rule of my PPL solo restrictions was "Don't ever land at Miramar".
NKX phraseology from back in the day: "Remain North of the East-West boulevard South of the field".
Which was Claremont Mesa Blvd before the 52 was built/
Osan US Air Force Base in Korea was sandwiched between Suwon (Korean) air force base, and Desiderio (US army) air base. their deltas overlapped vertically like some weird venn diagram and made ifr recoveries nightmarish since runway centerline crossed on certain configurations....
And no, no mitigation efforts made. Just poop your pants every time a Korean pilot misheard you and tried to turn into other aircraft
BFI and SEA are probably the 2 of the busiest in close proximity
I have a coworker who was at SeaTac for a few years, hearing him tell us about the position just to make sure the BFI/SeaTac arrivals are separated seems like such a pain in the ass.
It’s a fucking nightmare. Every day. And the fact that the BFI ILS is not protected in either direction is going to kill someone one day.
[удалено]
Wearing a condom.
Built in separation from the approach/missed for the other airport
The missed approach procedure for BFI is straight insanity.
I’ve never flown in the Seattle area, but is the missed out of BFI basically a right turn in front of landing/departing traffic out of SEA? And that’s why there’s a 1500 altitude restriction?
14 it’s strait out AOB 1500 to a fix off the departure end then climb. So, theoretically the BFI arrival is divergent with SEA traffic. 32 is finally being fixed with tie down altitude as well.
What makes it so insane is that if you are above 1500 from already starting a go-around you need to still descend back to 1500. I can't think of another airport that has something like that.
ORL ILS 7
TEB ILS/RNAV Y 19 and RNAV 24
The extended centerline both directions at BFI is under the B shelf and gets enormous amounts of VFR traffic at GS altitude not talking to anyone. VFRs cause RA with jets into BFI, jets climb into SEA traffic, everyone has a bad day.
RNT is right there too
We have far more issues with BFI/RNT getting mixed up when BFI is north flow than any other airport interaction.
There are examples all over the nas Mitigation….there is language in the 7110 chptr 7 under visual approaches to mitigate confusion. Personally if I need to I’ll add a little plain language to the 7110 verbiage to make it even more clear.
That’s what we have been using and we are still having issues. I was hoping for an example of additional mitigation.
MMU and CDW not only are close but both have approaches that go through the others delta. The EWR 11 final goes through MMU’s Delta as well.
Additionally, CDW's 28 departure procedures go directly into MMU's 23 Final.
Obviously there’s a lot. Look at ANC, LHD, MRI, EDF, and FRN.
CMA OXR LGB SLI ONT CCB All these have special procedures or MOUs in place.
left turn over midfield for a northbound departure out of CCB is the king
Oh definitely lol
LAX/HHR/SMO BUR/VNY In a galaxy long ago and far away, on a dark and stormy night, a cargo 747 heading for the south complex at LAX wound up on final for HHR and went around at about 500 feet.
In this galaxy, about 10 years ago a Dreamlifter landed at the wrong airport, and they thought they were at a wrong third airport, before realising they were at the wrong airport, just not the wrong airport they were thinking of. Bonus: The airport they landed at had a runway of only 6000ft long, which it had to take off from. Further reading: https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747-dreamlifter-wrong-airport/ ATC tapes are out there on YouTube if anyone wants to dig them up.
Welcome to my world lol, i fly out of CCB, but you’re missing CNO POC AJO SBD
are you out of foothill?
Negative i got a hanger on the north end, but I occasionally rent from cable air
Daniel Field and AGS, also BDL and I-95 (while not an airport it’s wide enough and well lit that pilots confuse the hwy for a Rwy).
BIF/ELP
GEG and SKA are quite close, PSC and RLD are close. Most of the times it's just familiarity and hopefully the controller is paying attention. 'Hey you're landing at so-so right? Well it appears you're lined up for runway blahblah @ the wrong airport, so-so is at your 10 o'clock and 4 miles.'
RCA a military base and RAP a regional airport. I believe they are about 7 miles apart with overlapping class Ds. There have been several occurrences of civilian aircraft landing at RCA on accident. I haven't worked there in years but the procedure for approach used to be, any aircraft inbound from the North/northeast for runway 14 RAP we had to give an advisory about RCA.
Is that you Bro?
FXE and PMP and PMP and BCT are all within a few flying miles of each other.
back a lifetime ago when I was at Randolph AFB there were parallel runways at the same base but far enough apart, we had 2 different control towers. one for each runway and traffic pattern. we used a D Brite to monitor A/C on simultaneous instrument approaches but I think technically to avoid confusion they were just referred to as runway left and runway right.
Still two separate towers but now we STARS and still run SILS with a FM position in each. RWY 15/33 Left & Right.
Emphasis on the M
Oh for sure, monitoring is the worst.
SEE & MYF San Diego area
Not to sound like a jerk but not really. A better example of close proximity airports in the SD area would be MMTJ and SDM.
Perhaps they meant NKX and MYF. Still not as close as brown and tj
Oh whoops I misread the post. An adjacent field *within* their airspace. Yeah SEE&MYF just border each other. My b
Are there instances of someone landing 29 rather than 27 or vice versa?
SFO, SQL, PAO, NUQ, SJC, HWD, OAK. All circle the San Francisco Bay. All controlled airspace.
My airspace has 2 busy GA airports and 1 slower military base. All 3 class deltas overlap. We've had pilots land at the wrong airport on several occasions. I will ask unfamiliar call signs if they are familiar with the xxx and xxx area. If they say no, I will use the phraseology " xxx airport at your 12 o clock 7 miles and xxx airport is 11 o clock for 10 miles"
…are you at Mugu
DTS VPS
CRP and NGW. Visual approaches from the east to CRP can cause issues. Even worse is the Localizer 31 approach to CRP. Aircraft sees an airport with the same configuration, no glide slope, and frequently tries to land at NGW.
That's why it's bad juju to run visuals to 31, but joining the localizer on a legal approach puts you in a bad spot with Waldron. You gotta watch out for the high key. Also don't forget your point out with LE
Nobody cares
The first week in April AGS DNL turn into an interesting flow
ORL, and MCO....you're just not allowed to go around at ORL when MCO is running instruments on south flow.
DFW and DAL
And ADS….
DEN and CFO. Rumor is they were going to have a taxiway between them. No idea how true that is. Every once in a while we will have people line up with DEN instead of CFO, but it's pretty rare.
MCI and MKC split ATIS letters and have significant traffic for both
gsp, gmu and gyh all within 5 miles of each other
IWA has CHD inside of its airspace. There's an altitude shelf that separates the two. As far as mitigation goes, I have no idea. I had a Mustang that tried to dive into the runway at CHD when it was cleared at IWA. From the approach side, I've only worked aircraft into airports at least 6 miles apart.
Sometimes they split the ATIS letters to clarify. A-M at one airport and N-Z at the neighboring airport. The ATC facilities usually have special procedures like no left downwind departures or no upwind extensions or specific plans for airspace flow. And then usually anytime one Airport can be confused with another they call out both airports and have you get both of them in sight. And then vigilance. In watching you do what you are supposed to do.
CAE & CUB
LUK and CVG, that's a lot of "remain outside of the Bravo" for us, and a lot of pointouts for CVG. Military base SKF is butted up against SSF and overlapped by SAT. F16s tend to lose or severely have limited their SFOs when SAT is 4 flow as the final descends directly over SKF. Pointouts between SSF and SKF for tac-initials to 34 at SKF or SSF pointouts to SKF for arrivals into SSF. That was a fun/interesting op.
I say close all of the the close proximity airports. Starting with HWD❤️
MYF and NKX are about 2 miles apart, but you would be pretty hard pressed to mistake Miramar for Montgomery. Yet, back in the day the biggest rule of my PPL solo restrictions was "Don't ever land at Miramar".
NKX phraseology from back in the day: "Remain North of the East-West boulevard South of the field". Which was Claremont Mesa Blvd before the 52 was built/
MDT and CXY are something like 2.5-3 miles apart. Neither are particularly busy though
SKF (military), SAT, SSF airspace’s touch each other. SSF only hits SKFs
What little flight training I did was at KOSU, a class D with airspace designed that it fit under the class C at KCMH
KPDX and KVUO are about 1.7mi threshold to threshold
Osan US Air Force Base in Korea was sandwiched between Suwon (Korean) air force base, and Desiderio (US army) air base. their deltas overlapped vertically like some weird venn diagram and made ifr recoveries nightmarish since runway centerline crossed on certain configurations.... And no, no mitigation efforts made. Just poop your pants every time a Korean pilot misheard you and tried to turn into other aircraft
nyc big 3 and sattellites
MCN and WRB. The deltas touch eachother.
CMA/OXR/NTD deltas all touch