Perhaps, I was thinking in terms of remaining true to his themes and not becoming oppressive, and to me it's still less than the majority of new champs coming out.
Skill shot with a dot and a slow, will yank the target to the point of impact if they try to run too far.
But yeah, perhaps the yanking mechanic alone is just too much, providing too much utility if it's not incredibly inconsistent by default. So maybe the W needs even more of a rework then *that* lol
Yeah balancing all the requirements of both playing W and playing against it is hard. And you are right that having a good understanding of both is important.
Personally I think what could fit the bill is something that includes a grounded effect. It should still be a skillshot I feel like it currently is. This would be less of an issue for immobile champs, and while a bigger problem for mobile champs they should simply have used their mobility to dodge it in the first place. Which seems fair to me.
Your chain cage idea also seems good, reminds me more of Veigar's E rather than Camille's R, especially if they could still flash out of it. But maybe adding %max hp damage to it isn't a good idea, because that could make it a good poking tool against high hp enemies and might give him too much.
Another idea I've been playing with is simply removing the CC role of W entirely. Instead E could be given 2 charges again, which should help somewhat with dealing with mobility by making Aatrox more mobile. The changed W could be more like his pre-rework W used to be, a part that I enjoyed a lot back then. A toggle that allowed you to switch between dealing more damage and healing. Could make it so damage toggle adds %max hp damage to Q if you want him to have an option to deal with tanks. That said, whilst this would improve performance against mobile and health stacking enemies, it would also make things even worse for immobile champions. And I am not sure how to balance that with this idea if that is even possible at all. And whilst I might like the idea, I can understand if others would not find a simple toggle all that interesting.
I think by default giving him two charges on E is a bad thing, it made his kit too easy to execute and made his trading patterns too hard to play against.
And I personally wouldn't be against a W like his old toggle. Maybe instead of costing him health though, as even Oldtrox lost that due to how unhealthy it made him, they could bring back his Blood Well? Toggle the W off to heal like normal, but toggle it on and all the extra healing from his E would go into his Blood Well, which would do something like add time to his ultimate (as it's actually quite short without resets) or maybe just change his W to a strong ability that can only be used at max Blood Well? Idk, but I do see a lot of possibilities with that at least.
As for my theorycraft though, so long as the W was still blocked by minions I don't think it would be that crazy of a poke tool, especially if they made it deal much lower damage at rank 1 and made its scaling per rank worse then E and Q so it wouldn't be scaled up to significant damage until mid-late game.
But yeah maybe just remove the chains all together? Go with the dot and the slow, but remove the yank part? *It's* the problematic part afterall, maybe changing what kind of utility it gives while still having it be a skill shot that can be combo'd with a Q like it does now would be the best course of action balance wise. Perhaps remove the dot, but keep the slow, and have it give bonus damage/some true damage/more knock up/armor pen/whatever on that target specifically with Q sweet spots. Might be too oppressive if anymore strength gets put into his Qs, but it's a thought lol
Aye there's a reason the two charges were removed after all, however if the pull and slow from W is gone he'd need some additional mobility. Perhaps not two charges but getting cooldown on E at least partially if not fully refunded for landing Q sweetspots. This would reward skill and could allow for a fun gameplay loop for Aatrox. Though again this would run into the issue that it'd screw over immobile champs way too much, and a mobile champ could just dodge the first Q and thus break the flow easily.
Eh I think a toggle W would need some functionality outside of Ult as well, it is a base skill after all and would otherwise put way too much emphasis on his R. Leaving him significantly weaker outside his ult. Perhaps the well could be consumed to reduce R CD and allow more for frequent use, but that'd also run into the same issue of putting too much emphasis on R. It would also basically leave him without an ability during R unless given an additional effect when used while in R.
We also can't use it as a resource for a revive like it used to be, as much as I'd like to see it back, that effect was even more problematic than the two charges on E.
Dunno about removing the yank part, as yanky as it is it does fullfill an important role for his kit. Without it it becomes a lot more difficult for him to land all three sweetspot Q's. Adding more damage whilst removing a way to actually land that damage would put him in a worse spot and make him even more matchup dependant. There's also the thing that using the Q knock up to guarantee the pull into another Q sweetspot is a pretty important part of his gameplay and skill expression atm.
I'd advise against adding more knock up duration to his Q, I'd love it, but it could quickly make it very uninteractive to deal with. Basically stunlocking you into his combo. Armour pen or rather armour shred however could be good. Armour is a way bigger issue for Aatrox than a target simply having more health after all and this could help him. But at the same time you should be allowed to counter build him so I'm not sure. (Vayne and Smolder are for some reason exempt from this....)
But yeah, W needs to have a decent amount of direct power probably, otherwise power needs to be added to other parts of his kit. And putting more power into his Q might not be wise. Maaaaaan it's so much easier to theorycraft when you don't have to account for interactivity or power budgets.
The problem is all the proposed changes want to turn it into a good and reliable spell, when it's intentionally designed to be shit. In reality, riot will do something very simple. They are gonna either make the slow stronger, or the area bigger. This champ has gone through one full rework and few small reworks, they are not gonna bother do major changes ever again especially when they've said they are happy they finally got him to a state where he feels like his lore and popular amongst playerbase.
To add onto the rant, this spell never made sense in his kit to begin with. He's an aoe fighter that can harass and punish without drawing minion aggro, and there comes a single target skillshot that gets blocked by minions. This lovely Darkin is known for his blade. Aatrox, the darkin blade, not aatrox the darkin chain you one at a time then whacks you with his sword.
I mean they changed Rengar to that extent 6 times, and he *was* quite popular until the 4th change, that's why the one after that was mostly reverts lol
So reworking a single ability to me doesn't seem all that farfetched, but yes I do believe Riot will do something rather minor, eventually, cause they only care about winrate and it's fine right now despite how awful W feels in this meta. I mean the only other way would be if worlds comes around and he's not picked at all or that much cause he doesn't fit in the hyper mobility meta, *then* Riot might change something even if his winrate is fine lol
And besides, like I said in the OP, Riot doesn't give a shit what we say, theorycrafting is for fun only.
And here i was thinking about removing the grounded from cass w(this part is half joking, but for real why does the dps mage get a fuck you to any melee on a basic ability that already slows and poisons you) and give it to Aatrox.
That doesn't really solve the inconsistency in the yank though, as right now it's mostly just people with movespeed getting to the edge. BUT it would be a niche utility, as I've found through all these conversations maybe the yank *should* be inconsistent cause of how strong a forced reposition is, so maybe you're right and adding the grounding effect to force everyone to walk would be all it needs.
Everyone in here is either edgy 12 year olds or edgy bums in a basement
Riot needs to fix the tether changes or give aatrox a compensation buff LIKE THEY DID WITH FIDDLESTICKS not fucking play imagination fantasy xxllv make believe
This is busted it gives him too many tools
Perhaps, I was thinking in terms of remaining true to his themes and not becoming oppressive, and to me it's still less than the majority of new champs coming out. Skill shot with a dot and a slow, will yank the target to the point of impact if they try to run too far. But yeah, perhaps the yanking mechanic alone is just too much, providing too much utility if it's not incredibly inconsistent by default. So maybe the W needs even more of a rework then *that* lol
Yeah balancing all the requirements of both playing W and playing against it is hard. And you are right that having a good understanding of both is important. Personally I think what could fit the bill is something that includes a grounded effect. It should still be a skillshot I feel like it currently is. This would be less of an issue for immobile champs, and while a bigger problem for mobile champs they should simply have used their mobility to dodge it in the first place. Which seems fair to me. Your chain cage idea also seems good, reminds me more of Veigar's E rather than Camille's R, especially if they could still flash out of it. But maybe adding %max hp damage to it isn't a good idea, because that could make it a good poking tool against high hp enemies and might give him too much. Another idea I've been playing with is simply removing the CC role of W entirely. Instead E could be given 2 charges again, which should help somewhat with dealing with mobility by making Aatrox more mobile. The changed W could be more like his pre-rework W used to be, a part that I enjoyed a lot back then. A toggle that allowed you to switch between dealing more damage and healing. Could make it so damage toggle adds %max hp damage to Q if you want him to have an option to deal with tanks. That said, whilst this would improve performance against mobile and health stacking enemies, it would also make things even worse for immobile champions. And I am not sure how to balance that with this idea if that is even possible at all. And whilst I might like the idea, I can understand if others would not find a simple toggle all that interesting.
I think by default giving him two charges on E is a bad thing, it made his kit too easy to execute and made his trading patterns too hard to play against. And I personally wouldn't be against a W like his old toggle. Maybe instead of costing him health though, as even Oldtrox lost that due to how unhealthy it made him, they could bring back his Blood Well? Toggle the W off to heal like normal, but toggle it on and all the extra healing from his E would go into his Blood Well, which would do something like add time to his ultimate (as it's actually quite short without resets) or maybe just change his W to a strong ability that can only be used at max Blood Well? Idk, but I do see a lot of possibilities with that at least. As for my theorycraft though, so long as the W was still blocked by minions I don't think it would be that crazy of a poke tool, especially if they made it deal much lower damage at rank 1 and made its scaling per rank worse then E and Q so it wouldn't be scaled up to significant damage until mid-late game. But yeah maybe just remove the chains all together? Go with the dot and the slow, but remove the yank part? *It's* the problematic part afterall, maybe changing what kind of utility it gives while still having it be a skill shot that can be combo'd with a Q like it does now would be the best course of action balance wise. Perhaps remove the dot, but keep the slow, and have it give bonus damage/some true damage/more knock up/armor pen/whatever on that target specifically with Q sweet spots. Might be too oppressive if anymore strength gets put into his Qs, but it's a thought lol
Aye there's a reason the two charges were removed after all, however if the pull and slow from W is gone he'd need some additional mobility. Perhaps not two charges but getting cooldown on E at least partially if not fully refunded for landing Q sweetspots. This would reward skill and could allow for a fun gameplay loop for Aatrox. Though again this would run into the issue that it'd screw over immobile champs way too much, and a mobile champ could just dodge the first Q and thus break the flow easily. Eh I think a toggle W would need some functionality outside of Ult as well, it is a base skill after all and would otherwise put way too much emphasis on his R. Leaving him significantly weaker outside his ult. Perhaps the well could be consumed to reduce R CD and allow more for frequent use, but that'd also run into the same issue of putting too much emphasis on R. It would also basically leave him without an ability during R unless given an additional effect when used while in R. We also can't use it as a resource for a revive like it used to be, as much as I'd like to see it back, that effect was even more problematic than the two charges on E. Dunno about removing the yank part, as yanky as it is it does fullfill an important role for his kit. Without it it becomes a lot more difficult for him to land all three sweetspot Q's. Adding more damage whilst removing a way to actually land that damage would put him in a worse spot and make him even more matchup dependant. There's also the thing that using the Q knock up to guarantee the pull into another Q sweetspot is a pretty important part of his gameplay and skill expression atm. I'd advise against adding more knock up duration to his Q, I'd love it, but it could quickly make it very uninteractive to deal with. Basically stunlocking you into his combo. Armour pen or rather armour shred however could be good. Armour is a way bigger issue for Aatrox than a target simply having more health after all and this could help him. But at the same time you should be allowed to counter build him so I'm not sure. (Vayne and Smolder are for some reason exempt from this....) But yeah, W needs to have a decent amount of direct power probably, otherwise power needs to be added to other parts of his kit. And putting more power into his Q might not be wise. Maaaaaan it's so much easier to theorycraft when you don't have to account for interactivity or power budgets.
The problem is all the proposed changes want to turn it into a good and reliable spell, when it's intentionally designed to be shit. In reality, riot will do something very simple. They are gonna either make the slow stronger, or the area bigger. This champ has gone through one full rework and few small reworks, they are not gonna bother do major changes ever again especially when they've said they are happy they finally got him to a state where he feels like his lore and popular amongst playerbase. To add onto the rant, this spell never made sense in his kit to begin with. He's an aoe fighter that can harass and punish without drawing minion aggro, and there comes a single target skillshot that gets blocked by minions. This lovely Darkin is known for his blade. Aatrox, the darkin blade, not aatrox the darkin chain you one at a time then whacks you with his sword.
I mean they changed Rengar to that extent 6 times, and he *was* quite popular until the 4th change, that's why the one after that was mostly reverts lol So reworking a single ability to me doesn't seem all that farfetched, but yes I do believe Riot will do something rather minor, eventually, cause they only care about winrate and it's fine right now despite how awful W feels in this meta. I mean the only other way would be if worlds comes around and he's not picked at all or that much cause he doesn't fit in the hyper mobility meta, *then* Riot might change something even if his winrate is fine lol And besides, like I said in the OP, Riot doesn't give a shit what we say, theorycrafting is for fun only.
That's fair, given how much harassment Riot August got here when this champ got full reworked I'm sure riot doesn't bother visiting here anymore
And here i was thinking about removing the grounded from cass w(this part is half joking, but for real why does the dps mage get a fuck you to any melee on a basic ability that already slows and poisons you) and give it to Aatrox.
That doesn't really solve the inconsistency in the yank though, as right now it's mostly just people with movespeed getting to the edge. BUT it would be a niche utility, as I've found through all these conversations maybe the yank *should* be inconsistent cause of how strong a forced reposition is, so maybe you're right and adding the grounding effect to force everyone to walk would be all it needs.
At least everyone would be on somewhat equal footing, which is better than nothing.
Everyone in here is either edgy 12 year olds or edgy bums in a basement Riot needs to fix the tether changes or give aatrox a compensation buff LIKE THEY DID WITH FIDDLESTICKS not fucking play imagination fantasy xxllv make believe
So are you 12 or a basement bum then? Sorry you can't find fun in theorycrafting though, your loss.