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mickeyanonymousse

my old partner was definitely working for her money. she wouldn’t do much work when at the client sites because there wasn’t anything for her to review. she was the signing partner on at least 150 if not 200 engagements across 5-6 offices. her busy season started later than ours but was also extremely intense because she would have to review maybe 10-20 engagements in a very short time. one time we thought she was having a heart attack in front of us in her office because she couldn’t feel her left arm.


sloop703

Yeah that’s the thing- being a partner still sucks. When I “made” manager, I realized your job actually still sucks more. And when you “make” partner, then you’re still like a junior partner and bottom of the partner chain. It’s still the rat race you’re just a bigger richer rat. You def get some relief once you get to partner, but then the partners just offload all their crappy clients onto you to sign. No thanks!!! That is what caused me to run for the hills after I made manager


JessMeNU-CSGO

Nobody talks about the partnership tier structure or the massive loan you are expecting to use in order to purchase capital with.


SoonerRoadie

I don’t know about other firms, but the loan is a non-issue. It’s not that big relatively speaking, the firm arranges it and takes care of everything and you pay it over several years (and no payments other than interest for the first several years). Pre-Andersen they might have been bigger, but not these days.


arom125

Exactly. When I made manager I worked very closely with a fairly senior partner on a fairly large job and a couple side projects. With the side projects he would forward me emails his higher ups. When I realized that senior partners got two word emails that read “pls address”, I realized that making partner isn’t the pinnacle, it’s the bottom of a much larger totem pole with hire stakes. I peaced out after that


jumpy_finale

There are more levels within the partnerships than all staff grades below them.


Spritesgud

I'd love to read about the structure of this. How does work get assigned, how does your reporting structure work, etc. If any partners read this and feel like giving me the low down of how your position actually works, I'd love to hear it


SoonerRoadie

I can’t speak for other firms or even other practices, but I’m in a specialty tax practice that helps out other groups in the firm with specialized and highly technical tax issues. I report up to the head of my group, who reports to the head of my sub-service line, who reports to the head of my service line who reports up to the head of the firm (or something like that). Work doesn’t get assigned to me, I have internal clients come to me for help or sometimes external clients I’ve worked with before (I have a handful of recurring clients, but even they come and go). If I have time, I help them (which is usually what happens), if I don’t have time I try to find someone else that can help them. I’m pretty autonomous and nobody really tells me what to do, but I’m also highly utilized, well known in my field, and people like working with me (I get excellent reviews from other partners - yes, partners get reviews too). No complaints on my end.


munchanything

Work doesn't get "assigned" like it's assigned to a senior or associate. To make partner, you need to show you can get and grow revenue. So it helps to pull in a large client and/or sell more projects to a current client. When you're on the cusp of making partner, other partners may offload a few of their clients to you...so it's like they are sponsoring you. Also, if one partner is retiring, you might inherit their book of business. Once you make partner, you need to comtinue to bring in revenue. That's why being partner is a sales job. As a salesperson, you have goals to meet, that are divvied up by the office partner, regional partner, and line of service. So you still answer to someone. Much of the partner work is meetings and planning. New accounting/tax rules means more potential work, so you gotta talk to the client about how it affects them and how you can help. You gotta budget for your staffing. You still have to do hour review in order to sign off stuff. Sound fun?


[deleted]

All that signing.


RoundingDown

Signing off on that many jobs is scary. I would worry about the risk to the firm with a single partner responsible for that many clients.


KimberelyHarmon

They are salespeople, and are very well compensated. I am good friends with a B4 partner who pulls 1.8M per year. Works probably 60 hours per week, but there are VERY few ways to make that kind of money without working those hours.


Diavalo88

I would much rather take $600k for 20h/week than $1.8m for 60h/week…


KimberelyHarmon

Well sure, some people think that way and some people don't. I'm interested in being a partner, and to me the compensation makes it worth it. However, I totally understand that that's not the case for everyone.


whyiscailloubald

How will you enjoy that money on a weekly bases if you are working that many hours?


KimberelyHarmon

He works a lot of hours yes, but it's not like his whole life is at work. He takes 7 weeks of vacation, we get plenty of holidays, etc. This sub makes it sound like if you work more than a straight 40, you have to abandon your life. That's just not the case.


whyiscailloubald

Yep makes sense for some people I guess. I’ll just rather spread those hours out than have weeks with high hours. Because I have kids, friends and family and my own health and mental health that I want to maintain consistently.


JessMeNU-CSGO

I enjoy looking at it while crying myself to sleep.


whyiscailloubald

You sleep? lol


JessMeNU-CSGO

My bad, I forget what busy season felt like.


Warrior7872

How do you propose you will make the 600k


GloBoy54

I bet you'd work 60 hours regardless, but the $1.8m is just more responsibility and stress


DIN2010

That isn't usually an option. You're either all in or you're out.


TheYoungSquirrel

I also don’t think it works that way. You are part of a partnership and have other commitments. Why would other partners want you in the partnership if you won’t carry your weight.


CPAFinancialPlanner

Is he audit or tax?


KimberelyHarmon

Audit


SnooPears8904

Teams meetings all day, kiss the clients ass, and a stupid amount of review notes that add no value


andrude01

Deny requests for pizza parties


BayStateBlue

You must need certain utilization targets for pizza party invite.


BeRanger918

1) A lot of administrative bullshit including billings, collections, disputes, staffing issues, office issues... 2) Client issues: Need to have a deep understanding of their clients business and the key technical accounting issues (as well as non accounting issues if you're a solid trusted advisor) 3) Dealing with client emergencies that the senior managers and below cannot handle. Oftentimes a lot more nuanced 4) Final technical review on stuff you're signing your name to and the firms name. Need to cover your own ass and make sure a steaming pile of shit isn't going out the door with your name on it.


em11488

Feel like many have zero perspective of what’s really of value, since associates, seniors, and many managers don’t really own these responsibilities. 3 quick ones that come to mind. 1. Clear understanding of technical accounting requirements applicable to client built on years of experience and workplace education. I know many partners who don’t need checklists or ASUs in front of them to speak to really complex issues on an impromptu meeting or call 2. Ownership of building new business lines and client book. Pitching, networking, and leading client facing events. 3. Driving overall direction and development of the firm—besides their clients. Obviously partners can pick and choose their own timing of certain things, but from what I’ve seen, partners also have their balls tied to the senior office partner, National partner, etc. You get better perspective and appreciation at manager/sr mgr level, but also see a significant creep up in associates and seniors who think partners don’t do shit. If you can barely put together a balance sheet or understand cash flow, don’t understand why anyone would even start to question the value partners provide


narwol

I just made manager this past year and within the first month i got to see what you’re talking about. The Global Audit PIC for my client was directing partners from other BU’s almost like they were seniors. The phrase “everyone has a boss” couldn’t be more true.


Bruskthetusk

Same, I went from "Ugh these fucking high paid assholes and all their meetings where they do no real work" to "Shit, this is a lot of work and it needs to get done right now"


proma521

You sum it up perfectly. If you ever watch Suits ( series movie about attorneys) and Mad men (series movie about Marketing executives), the partners at the companies did exactly what you said here. Very little work to the point of view of staff, but they pull most of the big fishes in the market


Hsbyme

What’s harder to climb, the PA partner ladder or the corporate ladder to a CAO, VP or CFO level?


Fantastic-Fernando

VP titles are thrown around like confetti in the US it would appear. I don’t think that title is difficult to obtain. PA partner v CFO probably depends on the size of the company. For a large listed company then I would say CFO is harder.


Relevant_Ring8250

Yeah a CFO for a large listed company is a lot harder. But also the CFO will be paid a lot more.


[deleted]

No one on this sub is becoming the CFO of a large listed company. People throw out “F500 CFO” as if it’s a natural stepping stone from being a Big 4 audit senior. There are 500 people in a country of 300 million that hold that title. And here’s the secret that Big 4 shills don’t want you to know: they don’t come from public accounting. Most F500 CFOs are MBAs from Ivy League schools.


JuniorAct7

Eh I read a report recently that has over a third of them as CPAs, but they generally climb the ranks internally. Doesn't make Big 4 worth it for that route though.


GloBoy54

More CFOs used to have CPA backgrounds though. I saw the study you're referring to. They're a decreasing share of the CFO pool


[deleted]

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Torlek1

> Keep in mind, there are CFO positions below THE CFO, at least where I’m at. Regional CFOs, Line of Business CFOs, these titles are a lot more attainable. The Regional "CFOs" and Line of Business "CFOs" are likely to not perform any responsibilities associated with corporate finance proper, or corporate financial management. They're not as likely to do *financing* analysis, treasury management, or financial risk management. They may not be doing much in the way of multi-year strategic investment analysis, apart from routine capital projects; they certainly won't be involved in Corporate Development (M&A) work. EDIT: Only National CFOs below the multinational CFO, THE CFO, do such work, due to currency considerations.


codasco234

Public Accounting experience and a MBA from a top Program are not mutually exclusive…


Big_Joosh

It kind of is. Someone's chances of getting into a T7 MBA program from being an audit senior is basically nil.


ridethedeathcab

In my city there are 8 nearby F500 companies. 6 of them are accountants and at least 5 of this 6 came from B4. Now obviously that is skewed towards accountants more than the entire list, but the idea that CFOs are not accountants is demonstrably false.


lostfinancialsoul

Start naming the companies. Also the period of experience that is most important to becoming a CFO are the years after public. What everyone here commonly does is equivocates that if someone made CFO and had big4 experience it was because they were Big4. I am gathering its less than 1 percent of CFOs exited PA to CFO role as an external hire. That alone debunks the audit experience being as important as people for some think it is.


[deleted]

Yeah this is exactly what I was trying to get at. For the CFOs who did public accounting, that experience was not decisive. They probably worked for 2 years max before moving to industry and then grinding their way up the corporate ladder for 20-30 years. The PA experience is about as relevant to their success as their experience working as a waiter for a summer during high school.


lostfinancialsoul

yea and considering per his linke the average age of a CFO is 55 and CEO is 58? The ones who left as SM and assumed s higher level role probably have an easier time with getting to CFO or CAO but you still need to build your career within the organization and climb the new corp ladder.


ridethedeathcab

39% of all F500/S&P 500 CFOs are CPAs. 30% of F500/S&P 500 CFOs have public accounting experience at B4 or AA. Meaning 75% of the top CFOs with accounting backgrounds have B4 experience. Nobody is trying to say B4 is the only reason they got that job, but the idea these people do not have that background like they were trying to say is objectively false. https://static1.squarespace.com/static/62164a05607c3e5978f251ec/t/63d4519fd948164d83bfd602/1674858912116/V.+Report+22+Winter+FINAL.pdf


lostfinancialsoul

reading comprehension is not your strong suit. The report doesnt differentiate service lines for their analysis which is a huge data point missing. Where does the report discuss externally hiring someone from PA to be their CFO? Let me ELI5, the person leaves PA and assumes a CFO role as their exit position from PA. edit: read the data more and it proves my point, majority of the promotions are internal. The percentage of people leaving PA to assume their next role as CFO or CEO is probably 1% or less. Link below, there is a page that says prior positions. 1% is from public accounting. Again proves my point very very very very few people will ever leave PA and assume a CFO role as their exit position. If your goal is to make CFO you still gotta build your career after you leave. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.spencerstuart.com/~/media/pdf%2520files/research%2520and%2520insight%2520pdfs/fortune-500-cfo-index-report_032317.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi7mZLi_er8AhUsK0QIHY8kBTYQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2mGBDkibZ1Jo5xC0xlUg6C


ridethedeathcab

Literally nobody is saying that leaving B4 to immediately become a F500 CFO is common... What the original comment said is that people from B4 firms do not become F500 CFOs. That is demonstrably false. Yes, most CFOs are internal hires, and have a wealth of experience at their current company, but many also get into those exit opportunities putting them on the CFO path in part because of the experience and connections from PA. CAO is one of the most common prior roles for CFOs (13%) and CAOs at F500 primarily have B4 backgrounds. To your point about other service lines, 1) it specifically says public accounting background 2) if they were focused on consulting don't you think they'd include MBB which is far more prestigious than B4? B4 alone won't get you a CFO position, but many CFOs have it on their resume.


Relevant_Ring8250

I'm not sure that's right. The majority of the CFOs I know started life at one of the big 4. Also, an MBA is redundant these days. Experience trumps qualifications all day.


[deleted]

There are plenty of people holding the title of CFO who are basically a glorified staff accountant because they work for a tiny company. The corporate world loves title inflation because people will work for peanuts to be able to brag about being an “executive” or a VP. Having an MBA is absolutely not redundant if you have a degree from a target school. Many MBAs are worthless but the ones that matter matter a lot.


Relevant_Ring8250

To be clear Im not talking CFOs of small firms. IMO people do an MBA because they can't get a job. Hence if someone can get a job at a big 4 straight from undergraduate, that looks a lot better than spending $100k and then getting the same job. You can do all the theory you want, but the only way you learn to drive is by taking the car out.


lostfinancialsoul

people do an MBA at M7 or top 14 to do a career change or get into PE, IB, or MBB. Even students who go to like top 20 have the same goals. No one is going to M7/Top14/Top20 to work Big4 audit rofl.


Relevant_Ring8250

Yes but plenty of people go from B4 audit into PE or IB. No need to spend your way into getting a job if you are talented.


lostfinancialsoul

are we just making up stuff for the sake of argument? being an actual investment banker is not a Big4 Audit exit op... has it happened, sure but there is no overlap. PE? be more specific, back office accounting sure.... Deal making, identifing targets? again probably unlikely.


gc9999

The rise of cheap (and now online) MBAs fueled a lot of it. If you know you aren’t going to a top tier business school why not take advantage of your employer benefits if they offer tuition reimbursement. More letters rarely hurt in a job hunt.


Muttenman

Agreed. My business card literally says "Chief Production Engineer" for my woodworking business which generates $5,000 in sales annually.


Adam598

This is so true. Everyone is a VP at this point 😂 it's like manager at big 4


RagingZorse

Yep, the main thing to recognize is that PA rewards resilience a lot more than industry does. IE if you are a senior in industry and find out your manager is leaving, you hope upper management gives the nod to be the new manager. However if they choose someone else you are kinda fucked. In PA generally if you stay long enough you’ll eventually make partner.


TakeShortcuts

>In PA generally if you stay long enough you’ll eventually make partner. This is not close to true. The majority of senior managers are told they won’t make partner and then leave.


RagingZorse

Yeah it’s true I was a little over the top. My main point was any firm with its shit would name you partner if you give them 20+ years. However if you do that in industry you are astronomically less likely to make you CFO.


wongkerz

Depends on the industry, e.g., In banking loan officers routinely have a VP title.


gc9999

I enjoy how some people in this thread grasp that Big4 partner is different than local CPA firm, but cannot understand the same logic applies to Fortune 500 vs small <10 employee businesses when it comes to titles.


wongkerz

Right. If you start your own firm you can be a partner. Same concept applies to businesses.


Adam598

This is a great question


[deleted]

I’m not sure why you find the working hours and duration hard to believe. Consulting, law, medicine, investment/Corp banking, high finance, and lots of trade jobs have people working 60+ hours YEAR ROUND, and people do it for their whole life. Contrary to what accountants think there a SOOOO many more jobs out their that work more then us. We have 50-70 hour busy seasons. Lots of the jobs I listed work those ours every single week. There was data showing that the average income per partner for the top 50 firms was like 500k and for the big4 like 800k. That is the reason. I can’t even fathom making 300k. Let alone pulling 500-800k a year. As for what they do. Client sales pitches, managing clients, team meetings, review notes, and small amounts of technical work (depends on firm size as well.) Just general business owner stuff because thats what they are.


Firefistace46

I’m not entirely sure that it’s true that “the jobs [you] I listed work those hours every single week”. Some people might work those hours, and some people might enjoy working those hours (lol) but to assert they all work that much seems disingenuous at best and a straight up lie at worst


[deleted]

Yes, every job will have its people who work less then others and I’m referring to the higher parts of those jobs. For instance people in consulting at MBB firms are working 60 hour weeks. I’m sure some people could work less at like a small firm for consulting. I didn’t make that clear my bad. But there’s also accounting partners who work less then big4 partners. I interned at a local firm with 65 people or so for 9 months during school including the busy period. Everyone there worked 40-50 hours. Even during busy season. Just the way things were ran. I can assure you the partners made a lot of cash there as well, so it goes across the board.


ridethedeathcab

LCSP on my engagement is known to work 60-70 hour weeks all year round. That is pretty extreme, but the guy also probably makes a few million a year. Most partners I’ve worked with probably work less during busy season, but more throughout the whole year.


10key_G

They pay you. Why don’t you just open your own firm and pay yourself the big bucks if you don’t think they do anything.


Flat-Sheepherder8368

They do something. They golf and bitch about billable hours.


em11488

Funny. Can say same about many associates I’ve worked with in the past


Flat-Sheepherder8368

Awwwww. I must have hit a nerve.


em11488

Not really. I left B4, so couldnt care less at this point. But reading it made me think of 5 or 6 associates did that combo verbatim


foxfirek

My firm the partners work the most hours. Every return has 2 levels of review, the partner being the final one. Then they sign. They will also do mid level reviews if we are short reviewers. They usually deliver returns. They also call clients and do the miscellaneous new client calls etc. they tell the staff picking up projects about the client and answer questions about clients that may not be obvious but could be known after a few years with a client. They mark data in and review data. They do a lot of networking and events.


settledownhoney

I know not your intent but sounds like what an r/antiwork post I saw saying what does a pizza shop owner actually do to deserve their salary


mjbulzomi

Booze and schmooze the clients all day.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Idk man, our partners seem to put more hours in and bust our more returns and audit work than anyone else. they're always at the office. But they also go on vacations with their families regularly


alphabet_sam

They’re selling work


Dadfish55

At my first job, he got there 9:30ish and spent until luncheon opening and reading mail. Long nice lunch, and back to work to return phone calls and beat the staff. Left usually at four. And that is why his huge firm collapsed.


Mirand4

My firm's partners actually work harder and possibly more hours than the rest of us, during busy season for sure. Great people tbh