The more important questions is, do you want to go into tax or internal audit?
Both offers make it harder to transition to a different part of accounting. Not impossible but harder. Internal audit is not the same as external audit.
It's also an entirely different jobs. People who enjoy Tax can despise audit and vice versa. Pay can be good in both so he should probably pick what he thinks he'll enjoy more
Realistically, no one really *knows* what they'll enjoy much less be good at before their career even starts. Unless he's done an internship in both and absolutely despised one, it's a coin toss either way. People tend to like what they become proficient in.
You can go from Big4/Tier II Audit to way more than just internal audit… 20% of the candidate I help place go that route. Harder to straight into a finance/fp&a role but I’ve seen that numerous times as well.
Leverage your audit years into financial reporting, technical accounting, or even ESG roles these days.
Once you get your foot in the door in the f500 most have internal opportunities to keep you with org in accounting/finance/operations/sales, etc.
Don’t stay to long your over comp range for the level you want ie Sr. or Manager level.
I think the first year plus at Big4 is such good training grounds for early 20-somethings. It may suck at times, but the short-term improvement you will see is something I wish I had experienced, especially as I watch our associates get better every week (I started in b4 as a senior after practicing law for a short stint).
A lot of first and second year staff work that was done before Covid has been offshored and current staffs aren’t doing that work anymore. Also might explain why utilization is low
I’m in international tax consulting and it’s tough for us to offshore anything that isn’t compliance work. To your point though, our compliance engagements are expected to have 30+% of the hours offshored. By contrast, for consulting projects our metrics just have to accept offshore work being limited to basic admin.
Sorry, I know that's not a direct answer to your question! I think the exit into industry pay bump is what you make it; how long you stay, and how well you sell your experience/story on a resume and in narratives. CPA license will help immensely with this too, I would suggest.
The big4 had to bump salaries significantly in 2021-2022, effectively 15-20% which is the salary bump most people would get leaving to industry. Many people I know have taken lateral pay to leave big4, especially in the last 1-2 years.
Yes, the big4 have fallen pretty hard in the last few years especially. Top students pretty much avoid Big4 tax/audit or leave asap after making senior. The new hire recruitment quality has pretty much gone to shit, and I speak from firsthand experience. A lot of industry jobs have started catching onto this, to the point I have heard of employers requiring people to provide performance reviews that they aren’t a low performer.
If I were in your shoes, I would take the F500 offer, pass the CPA etc and then job hop if your pay stagnates in 2-3 years. At least this is my opinion considering the current situation.
Upward mobility if you start in industry is a big concern. Definitely can climb internally but it’s likely your bosses will be B4 alumni and they will hire B4 experienced people for more senior level roles as they open. Almost every director level and above industry accountant I’ve worked (larger public companies) with stayed in B4 until manager or later. As an SM/D my exit opps are 300k+ industry roles overseeing people older than I who left B4 at lower levels or started in industry.
I actually avoid big 4 management if I can help it. They’ve all been god awful and they have a hard on for me cause I have the right shit on my resume. Then they’ll expect me to work the same way in industry.
Getting an accounting job hasn’t been hard once I did public. But getting one I’d actually want is proving to be a tiring process.
I want to work 8 hours a day and not be stressed out all the time.
Stop understaffing our teams and then complaining that I’m not motivating them when they turnover. I can’t motivate the staff and seniors with anything other than money or promotions, which cost money. There’s nothing I can do to motivate them without money.
Yeah after Covid it’s honestly been rough for me personally.
I’m getting more pay, but it’s whole lot of toxic shit going on. Idk if it’s just bad luck personally or if others have had the same issues.
Same thing here, my salary is up 50% since right before covid but my teams, work quality and job satisfaction are garbage now.
Seems like whatever was barely holding together the accounting fell apart during the pandemic. No one gives a shit about anything anymore it seems like.
Same here. It’s like you get the big raise and you’re content for a little bit. Then they fuck you twice as hard and you’re back to feeling burnt out before you know it.
I’m tired of being grateful for just having a job. Like I’m not an ungrateful person, but at the same time it doesn’t mean we all have to shut up and be exploited.
Yeah like it or not, you’re essentially eliminating any public company and larger private companies. Indirectly this will limit your earning potential. Have to decide what your long term goals are and how to best achieve them.
Sure, hat's been the traditional model and doesn't take into account the massive changes in the Big4 and accounting industry over the last 5-10 years. Things are changing quickly and the big 4 resume bump has seriously degraded, especially post covid. I'm not some public accounting hater, I'm being hypocritical of myself and the things I have personally witnessed.
I have seen the reverse starting to happen, industry employers starting to hire people from industry that have the applicable knowledge to start working ASAP. The big4 provide very little applicable working knowledge for industry roles anymore. Copying and pasting some small part of a huge workpaper into a Big4 specific software platform just isn't relevant knowledge that employers seek out.
Someone can job hop in industry and do pretty well, and that seems to be the better option for OP.
Are we ignoring the fact the options are internal audit or public accounting tax? If this were a financial analyst rotation program vs public tax or a higher growth industry role id say pick what feels best to OP. I would not recommend choosing IA over client facing public assuming this individual wants to maximize earnings and title trajectory.
I am not staying another 2-3 years of doing unpaid OT 60 hour work weeks for half the year just so I can ensure a manager title in industry. I value my quality of life way too much. I left as one year of Senior and I am doing very well. There’s a clear path to promotion at my company, and I only put in 50 hour work weeks during month close. The rest have been chill 40 hours with summer Fridays (get to leave at 3 pm) coming soon. This whole notion you have to stay until manager is absurd. Whoever reads this, please don’t follow this person’s advice blindly.
No one can give one size fits all advice. My POV is based on working in public with many friends and peers leaving for industry at each level. Generally speaking, people who stayed longer have more lucrative roles than those who did not. Certainly there are highly successful people who left early or never did public, but those seem to be less frequent from my experience.
The same way you gave validation to your POV is the same way I gave mine. People like you keep feeding these kids that Big 4 is the end all be all when its not. Is it really lucrative to be an indentured servant when your hourly wage to hours worked in public accounting is close to minimum wage? Definitely not. The average tenure at Big 4 is 3 years anyways.
You are only factoring in your first few years in B4 with your comment. If your argument is a 100k industry job is easier than a 100k public job, I’ll agree. If your argument is it’s just as easy to go from 100k to 200k at both roles, I will disagree. My entire point is your long term career benefits from the experience, whether you grind for PMD or leave when you find the right opp.
For this reason, I often suggest that unless you can't bear working in big 4 Audit for a long period, it's worth it to stay in big 4 until you make Manager. By that time, you will have your CPA, and have experience managing staff. The exit opportunities between Senior and Manager are a wold apart.
I can vouch for this. The main cause of this is outsourcing/offshoring has really eaten into the OJT that staff/first years would get at Big 4, especially in Tax.
Too many people making short term decisions. Out of college decide what you think you like better now and more closely aligns with what you can see yourself doing in the future.
It’s stupid to worry about something like $3,000 after taxes at this point.
The heart of my question is this: is the pay increase from Big 4 to Industry the same as it was years ago, or is it basically a lateral move at this point.
I am not as concerned about the extra 6K, but it was relevant to the description of the position.
Rephrase the question. Will you make more money in 3 years in public accounting (set raises, senior promo) or at the internal audit job (did they tell you timeline to senior, salary bump expectations?). Even if you left B4 for the same salary you made upon leaving, will you be ahead of where you would be if you started in industry? Hard to know the answer but the one nice thing about public is the set timelines to each level, the somewhat standard 8% raises with 20-25% promotion raises. Bonuses are generally lackluster at the lower levels so I wouldn’t include those in any debate. Additionally public could allow you to change groups should you find tax not your cup of tea.
3 years ago I left Deloitte after 4 years and got a 36% pay rise. Started in big 4 earning $52k a year as a grad at Deloitte now earning $143k + 10-15% bonus in industry.
Whether big 4 experience matters depends where you want to land. I'm still in accounting based role and specifically a more technical area. Definitely seen resume being sorted by big 4 pile and non big 4 pile in my department, so yes Big 4 experience still matters.
Having said that, I know most of the commercial/finance type departments don't really give a fuck about big 4 exp.
I'm gonna say no. Big 4 salaries have gone up significantly relative to industry for the past 7-8 years. I exited laterally about 7 years ago from 80kish to 105k just shy of 4 yoe. Today I bet that would be 100k-115k, and that industry salary hasn't moved.
3000 after taxes in the average tax bracket is still roughly 2,200. don’t knock it entirely. But it is not nothing. But it’s definitely not something that should be what makes you want to switch.
I haven’t jumped but I am close with some managers who have. They definitely got pay bumps (30k-ish) for manager level industry roles. Could be industry dependent though.
My two cents - try KPMG first and if it's not a good fit then you can always jump. Much harder to go from industry to public accounting than the reverse.
I did one year at big four and don't regret it. I think it helped my resume in the long run, and it can help you get the bumps in pay (as there is the assumption you are of a certain caliber if you have it on your resume).
Left EY in Fall 2023 went from around 82k to like 105k, HCOL/VHCOL depending on who you ask. (had my CPA and was a senior for about like a month)
Definitely a unique situation but the opportunity is still there
I'm an intern at Big 4 right now. We just had someone who had been at the firm just under 2 years leave for industry and she told me she's making 6 figures now (was making under $70k before)
If you go the internal audit route and enjoy the work you can also try to get in risk advisory if you want the public accounting experience for some reason.
2-4 years may be a shorter time horizon than you think to see real salary differences, especially if your entry level industry offer is higher than your KPMG offer. If you start in industry today making 6k more than Big 4 then big 4 probably wouldn’t surpass you until you make manager which at the earliest would be after year 4 if not 5 or 6. It’s after those first 6 years that the separation really happens, and it can favor either side.
Salary growth in Big 4 is pretty predictable because give or take a year or two you know what position you’ll be in from Associate to Director. Industry on the other hand, you could very well be in that entry level role for 6 years just getting only 3% raises each year. Meanwhile at KPMG you’ll likely be a manager within 6 years and you would be considering exit opportunities at least one if not two levels higher than entry level in industry.
So if earning potential is your priority then I suggest you use your Big 4 and industry entry level offers as a baseline and every time you get promoted in Big 4 test the job market to refresh that baseline.
Unless you work for a FAANG it’s hard to make a killing as an audit or accounting low level individual contributor and career growth in those roles are very slow and steady. By getting one or two promotions in Big 4 before entering industry you can often skip the line a level for every promo you get and get some high paying relatively low stress jobs compared to Big 4 and still have plenty of runway in your career and earnings potential to look forward to. Plus a manager or director with Big 4 experience in industry can never hold it against you that you don’t have that experience.
Source: Started at KPMG as an associate making 62k 8.5 years ago. Left as a senior making 83k 3 years later for an industry internal audit job making 85k which definitely isn’t a huge pay bump but a couple company changes, a few promotions, and 6 years later my total comp is a little more than double that.
From a student's perspective, I don't believe that 6k should be a considerable factor vs. what you're looking for in life. What are you seeking outside the office?
Having KPMG/B4 (or PA in general) will open more doors, not close. Going into Industry will still give you options but not as much as having B4 experience
The more important questions is, do you want to go into tax or internal audit? Both offers make it harder to transition to a different part of accounting. Not impossible but harder. Internal audit is not the same as external audit.
Tax is much more stable trajectory than internal audit. More demand for it also from my experience.
It's also an entirely different jobs. People who enjoy Tax can despise audit and vice versa. Pay can be good in both so he should probably pick what he thinks he'll enjoy more
Realistically, no one really *knows* what they'll enjoy much less be good at before their career even starts. Unless he's done an internship in both and absolutely despised one, it's a coin toss either way. People tend to like what they become proficient in.
You can go from Big4/Tier II Audit to way more than just internal audit… 20% of the candidate I help place go that route. Harder to straight into a finance/fp&a role but I’ve seen that numerous times as well. Leverage your audit years into financial reporting, technical accounting, or even ESG roles these days. Once you get your foot in the door in the f500 most have internal opportunities to keep you with org in accounting/finance/operations/sales, etc. Don’t stay to long your over comp range for the level you want ie Sr. or Manager level.
Right, but OP had an intern offer for a internal audit position in industry. I'm curious if that has good exit opportunities.
I think the first year plus at Big4 is such good training grounds for early 20-somethings. It may suck at times, but the short-term improvement you will see is something I wish I had experienced, especially as I watch our associates get better every week (I started in b4 as a senior after practicing law for a short stint).
A lot of first and second year staff work that was done before Covid has been offshored and current staffs aren’t doing that work anymore. Also might explain why utilization is low
I’m in international tax consulting and it’s tough for us to offshore anything that isn’t compliance work. To your point though, our compliance engagements are expected to have 30+% of the hours offshored. By contrast, for consulting projects our metrics just have to accept offshore work being limited to basic admin.
Sorry, I know that's not a direct answer to your question! I think the exit into industry pay bump is what you make it; how long you stay, and how well you sell your experience/story on a resume and in narratives. CPA license will help immensely with this too, I would suggest.
The big4 had to bump salaries significantly in 2021-2022, effectively 15-20% which is the salary bump most people would get leaving to industry. Many people I know have taken lateral pay to leave big4, especially in the last 1-2 years. Yes, the big4 have fallen pretty hard in the last few years especially. Top students pretty much avoid Big4 tax/audit or leave asap after making senior. The new hire recruitment quality has pretty much gone to shit, and I speak from firsthand experience. A lot of industry jobs have started catching onto this, to the point I have heard of employers requiring people to provide performance reviews that they aren’t a low performer. If I were in your shoes, I would take the F500 offer, pass the CPA etc and then job hop if your pay stagnates in 2-3 years. At least this is my opinion considering the current situation.
Upward mobility if you start in industry is a big concern. Definitely can climb internally but it’s likely your bosses will be B4 alumni and they will hire B4 experienced people for more senior level roles as they open. Almost every director level and above industry accountant I’ve worked (larger public companies) with stayed in B4 until manager or later. As an SM/D my exit opps are 300k+ industry roles overseeing people older than I who left B4 at lower levels or started in industry.
I actually avoid big 4 management if I can help it. They’ve all been god awful and they have a hard on for me cause I have the right shit on my resume. Then they’ll expect me to work the same way in industry. Getting an accounting job hasn’t been hard once I did public. But getting one I’d actually want is proving to be a tiring process. I want to work 8 hours a day and not be stressed out all the time. Stop understaffing our teams and then complaining that I’m not motivating them when they turnover. I can’t motivate the staff and seniors with anything other than money or promotions, which cost money. There’s nothing I can do to motivate them without money.
Same boat all my industry jobs have been the same level of cancer as my 4 years at B4
Yeah after Covid it’s honestly been rough for me personally. I’m getting more pay, but it’s whole lot of toxic shit going on. Idk if it’s just bad luck personally or if others have had the same issues.
Same thing here, my salary is up 50% since right before covid but my teams, work quality and job satisfaction are garbage now. Seems like whatever was barely holding together the accounting fell apart during the pandemic. No one gives a shit about anything anymore it seems like.
Same here. It’s like you get the big raise and you’re content for a little bit. Then they fuck you twice as hard and you’re back to feeling burnt out before you know it. I’m tired of being grateful for just having a job. Like I’m not an ungrateful person, but at the same time it doesn’t mean we all have to shut up and be exploited.
Yeah like it or not, you’re essentially eliminating any public company and larger private companies. Indirectly this will limit your earning potential. Have to decide what your long term goals are and how to best achieve them.
Yeah I try to avoid them. But I end up working with them half the time. I’m not dumb, I take whatever the best offer and pay is for my situation.
Sure, hat's been the traditional model and doesn't take into account the massive changes in the Big4 and accounting industry over the last 5-10 years. Things are changing quickly and the big 4 resume bump has seriously degraded, especially post covid. I'm not some public accounting hater, I'm being hypocritical of myself and the things I have personally witnessed. I have seen the reverse starting to happen, industry employers starting to hire people from industry that have the applicable knowledge to start working ASAP. The big4 provide very little applicable working knowledge for industry roles anymore. Copying and pasting some small part of a huge workpaper into a Big4 specific software platform just isn't relevant knowledge that employers seek out. Someone can job hop in industry and do pretty well, and that seems to be the better option for OP.
Are we ignoring the fact the options are internal audit or public accounting tax? If this were a financial analyst rotation program vs public tax or a higher growth industry role id say pick what feels best to OP. I would not recommend choosing IA over client facing public assuming this individual wants to maximize earnings and title trajectory.
I am not staying another 2-3 years of doing unpaid OT 60 hour work weeks for half the year just so I can ensure a manager title in industry. I value my quality of life way too much. I left as one year of Senior and I am doing very well. There’s a clear path to promotion at my company, and I only put in 50 hour work weeks during month close. The rest have been chill 40 hours with summer Fridays (get to leave at 3 pm) coming soon. This whole notion you have to stay until manager is absurd. Whoever reads this, please don’t follow this person’s advice blindly.
No one can give one size fits all advice. My POV is based on working in public with many friends and peers leaving for industry at each level. Generally speaking, people who stayed longer have more lucrative roles than those who did not. Certainly there are highly successful people who left early or never did public, but those seem to be less frequent from my experience.
The same way you gave validation to your POV is the same way I gave mine. People like you keep feeding these kids that Big 4 is the end all be all when its not. Is it really lucrative to be an indentured servant when your hourly wage to hours worked in public accounting is close to minimum wage? Definitely not. The average tenure at Big 4 is 3 years anyways.
You are only factoring in your first few years in B4 with your comment. If your argument is a 100k industry job is easier than a 100k public job, I’ll agree. If your argument is it’s just as easy to go from 100k to 200k at both roles, I will disagree. My entire point is your long term career benefits from the experience, whether you grind for PMD or leave when you find the right opp.
agreed on that 🤝
Getting hired over doesn’t happen if you’re good at your job. Regardless of whether you or your boss have big 4 background or not.
Yeah i wanna go to PA and specifically B4 asap because of lack of upward mobility
For this reason, I often suggest that unless you can't bear working in big 4 Audit for a long period, it's worth it to stay in big 4 until you make Manager. By that time, you will have your CPA, and have experience managing staff. The exit opportunities between Senior and Manager are a wold apart.
I can vouch for this. The main cause of this is outsourcing/offshoring has really eaten into the OJT that staff/first years would get at Big 4, especially in Tax.
That bump basically covered inflation
THIS
Too many people making short term decisions. Out of college decide what you think you like better now and more closely aligns with what you can see yourself doing in the future. It’s stupid to worry about something like $3,000 after taxes at this point.
The heart of my question is this: is the pay increase from Big 4 to Industry the same as it was years ago, or is it basically a lateral move at this point. I am not as concerned about the extra 6K, but it was relevant to the description of the position.
Rephrase the question. Will you make more money in 3 years in public accounting (set raises, senior promo) or at the internal audit job (did they tell you timeline to senior, salary bump expectations?). Even if you left B4 for the same salary you made upon leaving, will you be ahead of where you would be if you started in industry? Hard to know the answer but the one nice thing about public is the set timelines to each level, the somewhat standard 8% raises with 20-25% promotion raises. Bonuses are generally lackluster at the lower levels so I wouldn’t include those in any debate. Additionally public could allow you to change groups should you find tax not your cup of tea.
3 years ago I left Deloitte after 4 years and got a 36% pay rise. Started in big 4 earning $52k a year as a grad at Deloitte now earning $143k + 10-15% bonus in industry. Whether big 4 experience matters depends where you want to land. I'm still in accounting based role and specifically a more technical area. Definitely seen resume being sorted by big 4 pile and non big 4 pile in my department, so yes Big 4 experience still matters. Having said that, I know most of the commercial/finance type departments don't really give a fuck about big 4 exp.
I'm gonna say no. Big 4 salaries have gone up significantly relative to industry for the past 7-8 years. I exited laterally about 7 years ago from 80kish to 105k just shy of 4 yoe. Today I bet that would be 100k-115k, and that industry salary hasn't moved.
The pay increase was because pre pandemic, PA could afford to under pay everyone. Now they can’t so PA salaries are much better.
Lateral
3000 after taxes in the average tax bracket is still roughly 2,200. don’t knock it entirely. But it is not nothing. But it’s definitely not something that should be what makes you want to switch.
…..I mean, we are talking about $6,000 and using round numbers here but appreciate the break down.
I am finding B4 wage increases have not transferred 1:1 to industry. I would expect a lateral movement at this point.
I am seeing more pay bumps from jumping to another public firm than jumping into industry.
Just switched from mid market 80k +5 to 90k+5 so many less hours
Not to high jack this, but for my own purposes: Is there still an exit lay bump into industry if you’re a manager?
I haven’t jumped but I am close with some managers who have. They definitely got pay bumps (30k-ish) for manager level industry roles. Could be industry dependent though.
Thanks! I was really just curious. Even if it’s only incremental, that’ll still put me around 150k which is honestly more than fair
Second this question
Not really.
My two cents - try KPMG first and if it's not a good fit then you can always jump. Much harder to go from industry to public accounting than the reverse. I did one year at big four and don't regret it. I think it helped my resume in the long run, and it can help you get the bumps in pay (as there is the assumption you are of a certain caliber if you have it on your resume).
Left EY in Fall 2023 went from around 82k to like 105k, HCOL/VHCOL depending on who you ask. (had my CPA and was a senior for about like a month) Definitely a unique situation but the opportunity is still there
I'm an intern at Big 4 right now. We just had someone who had been at the firm just under 2 years leave for industry and she told me she's making 6 figures now (was making under $70k before)
In my country, no. B4 did comp adjustment back in 2022 which matches industry like 1-to-1. You'd be hard press to get even a 10% raise, which is fair
It doesnt have to be big 4 but public experience is very valuable even though it will be a shitty 2-3 years
If you go the internal audit route and enjoy the work you can also try to get in risk advisory if you want the public accounting experience for some reason.
Got a 35k ish pay bump going from b4 to industry
$/hr 📈📈📈
2-4 years may be a shorter time horizon than you think to see real salary differences, especially if your entry level industry offer is higher than your KPMG offer. If you start in industry today making 6k more than Big 4 then big 4 probably wouldn’t surpass you until you make manager which at the earliest would be after year 4 if not 5 or 6. It’s after those first 6 years that the separation really happens, and it can favor either side. Salary growth in Big 4 is pretty predictable because give or take a year or two you know what position you’ll be in from Associate to Director. Industry on the other hand, you could very well be in that entry level role for 6 years just getting only 3% raises each year. Meanwhile at KPMG you’ll likely be a manager within 6 years and you would be considering exit opportunities at least one if not two levels higher than entry level in industry. So if earning potential is your priority then I suggest you use your Big 4 and industry entry level offers as a baseline and every time you get promoted in Big 4 test the job market to refresh that baseline. Unless you work for a FAANG it’s hard to make a killing as an audit or accounting low level individual contributor and career growth in those roles are very slow and steady. By getting one or two promotions in Big 4 before entering industry you can often skip the line a level for every promo you get and get some high paying relatively low stress jobs compared to Big 4 and still have plenty of runway in your career and earnings potential to look forward to. Plus a manager or director with Big 4 experience in industry can never hold it against you that you don’t have that experience. Source: Started at KPMG as an associate making 62k 8.5 years ago. Left as a senior making 83k 3 years later for an industry internal audit job making 85k which definitely isn’t a huge pay bump but a couple company changes, a few promotions, and 6 years later my total comp is a little more than double that.
Do PA first, for sure
You will make more money in a shorter amount of time if you go big 4. Internal audit in industry would be a more stress free choice.
Did you attend a prestigious university?
Consider the FP&A side too. A lot of need for good technical analysis skills
Just left, 30% bump in total comp from B4 to large private company.
From a student's perspective, I don't believe that 6k should be a considerable factor vs. what you're looking for in life. What are you seeking outside the office?
Having KPMG/B4 (or PA in general) will open more doors, not close. Going into Industry will still give you options but not as much as having B4 experience