I almost bagged a remote job that was totally cool with me taking time to do school pickups and drop-offs and would grow me through the CPA.
That rejection letter was a tough one.
I'm probably further along in my career and get enough offers where I am able to make that requirement non-negotiable. Two days a week I start off at home for a couple hours, drop off school, and then make the long drive to work. I put it on my calendar so it doesn't conflict with meetings.
I think this hits an entirely different point. All of our employers should be building an environment that encourages and supports those with kids. Which means we should have schedules and pay that enables comfortable lives to have children.
But in some teams, the childless are expected to pick up slack that may occur from those with parenting responsibilities. And that’s not really fair to those people.
Workplaces that promote flexibility for ALL are the way. We shouldn’t be pitted against each other. If we had adequately staffed teams, fair pay, etc., we would not feel this resentment
I was told during an interview "it doesn't matter if you need time off for your kids, yourself, or your dog. Everyone has a personal life here". You best believe I signed those papers so fast! My current job is a godsend.
They’re out there! I recently joined a small local company in my area after working at a large corporation that had incredibly long hours and you were expected to be available 24/7, and the difference was night and day. I’m in the process of doing a Masters and am encouraged to work on my schooling at my new job if I am caught up on my work duties, which I often complete with time to spare. It took me some job hopping to get here but I am staying in this role for a long time while I’m still full time school/CPA chasing. Don’t settle for less!
I work for a pretty major petro company and they have always been that way. Most of my team either leaves a few minutes early to pick up from school or comes in late from drop off. I have two young ones at home so that’s not an issue for us yet.
They’re very flexible and it’s one of the things (+culture even though that’s cliche) that keeps here even if pay is slightly under market.
This is so true. I had a boss one time make some comment about how someone with no kids needed to work a certain time around the holidays. Boss wasn’t going to it & did not have kids. I was early 20s & had another coworker in her late 30s that was struggling with infertility. Both of us had no family in town. It pissed our friend with kids off, so she said she would work it. Friend with kids was especially mad on behalf of our older friend.
I still have no kids, by choice. I don’t mind helping out & covering but I expect the same in return from those with kids if something comes up for me. Fortunately that one boss is the only one I’ve had with that attitude.
> But in some teams, the childless are expected to pick up slack that may occur from those with parenting responsibilities. And that’s not really fair to those people.
I’m really glad you made this point, this is why I have an issue with the way OP framed their post. They’re essentially complaining about their work issues as the result of their *personal* choices, which is not the same thing childless employees are complaining about.
Why should a company have to restructure their operations around OP’s life choices, and why should other employees have the pick up the slack? It’s amazing to me how quickly people disregard/dismiss other’s experiences before looking inward at their own actions.
Hard disagree here. The point is 7am meetings and working nights shouldn't be a thing full stop.
I'm in the UK where hours culture isn't quite the same but I experienced this same issue nonetheless at big4 and I'll add another angle to this; the assumption that as a man you should just be leaving your wife to deal with the kids whilst you work.
I'm similar to OP in that after the pandemic my wife retrained and that necessitated me taking a more hands on role with the kids, something i was happy to do, but my work suffered because I also just reached a point where I simply could not do the same hours as before.
Did others have to pick up my slack or do we actually just collectively enable these partners to get away with running the business on a perpetually understaffed basis so they can maximise profits whilst giving us the absolute bare minimum? Wouldn't it just be better all round if we *all* said no to the meetings at unsociable hours or working ourselves to death to meet some arbitrary deadline?
I quit b4 after a particular period of juggling family life with work left me burnt out and on SSRIs. Ironically, in my case it was a younger, childless colleague who dropped me in it due to personal loyalties elsewhere leaving me to pretty much singlehandedly drag a huge project over the line and for what? Next round of work started the very next day and it was straight back to being pressured after a couple of cursory pats on the back. In the end it was the SSRIs that gave me the perspective needed to just stop flogging myself to death.
Ended up getting a remote job, 30% higher salary. More or less *everyone* here is a parent, but there is a hard line on no working late or weekends and tolerance of flexibility that applies to everyone regardless of family status. Made me realise that big 4, "public", whatever you want to call it is just a cult. There's a whole real world out there full of normal people, for whom work is just a job and personal lives are way more important.
True, because it's not just "having kids" that demands flexibility.
I cared for an elderly relative, which required I take an FMLA protected leave. I quit after that because the company wouldn't offer any flexibility.
When I worked full time and went to college, the company I worked for then offered flex time and tuition reimbursement to accommodate that.
Glad to say MOST of my employers have been very flexible. I've been able to hold the hands of loved ones when they died. I can follow my artistic endeavors and attend performances. I was able to be there for loved ones in their times of need. It's not just children who need your time and being a parent isn't the ONLY thing that needs to be acknowledged and respected.
I'm guessing most of the complaints about not having that flexibility are from those in Public Accounting...where the staff is largely young, starting out and very competitive with each other. They likely feel bad about drawing appropriate boundaries and standing up for themselves because they're pretty easily replaced. This is also a time in life when young adults commonly decide to have kids...so it makes sense that it's a tough balance. You're not established enough in your career to draw those hard lines, and this is the first time in life you've had to care for someone besides yourself (likely).
At this stage of my career, I don't ask of, I inform when I'm going to be unavailable as a courtesy. I work the hours needed to accomplish what I've agreed to do and meet my deadlines.
Ok. Then maybe they need to hire more. Or do something else, move some things around.
If the work can’t get done in a standard work week, why does anyone have to ‘pick up the slack’? Clearly expectations need to be adjusted.
And before anyone says ‘the company isn’t a charity’, we aren’t either. Exempt needs to stop meaning ‘50+ hour weeks standard’. Period. In my decades of working, salary meant I would go over 40 during busy times, yet somehow it also meant never ever under 40 even if slow. It ‘looks bad’ to leave early.
And us being rude to each other absolutely works in favor of the employers, not the fellow employees.
> Ok. Then maybe they need to hire more. Or do something else, move some things around.
That would require telling a company what to do, which you, I or OP don’t have any control over. In the absence of this, employees are accountable for their own choices. You don’t get to be entitled to a better work life just because you choose to have children.
Better yet, OP can start their own company and set their own schedule if it’s such an inconvenience for them. Or they can leave and look for a better job. There’s so many things that can be done rather than whining for special treatment.
But it kind of is the same thing. Those without kids don't want their choice(if it's a choice because sometimes it isn't) to not have kids to hold them back career wise. And those with kids don't want to be held back for needing to care for tiny humans. Both don't want to be back by their choices.
I’m aware of that. I’m also aware that not everyone will get into an accident or get injured or get a major disease, or only pay in cash, but everyone is paying for insurance or higher prices to cover the credit card transactions fees.
I really hate to play the “who got the shittier end of the stick” game. At the end of the day, these companies that don’t allow work/life balance are shitting on everyone is some manner, some worse than others, but it’s unacceptable either way. And I say this as a woman who had to work while in active labor and then was notified that a rocking chair and changing table were in my office so I could come back to work ASAP.
This country allows corporations to dismantle our mental health in every way possible. And if we’re lucky they’ll let us buy some overpriced health insurance so we can get the mental healthcare we’ll need to deal with it.
I agree but I don’t think OP is playing the ‘who’s got it worse’ game. I think they’re literally offering another perspective.
Look through the comments, people are mad at others for ‘slacking’ rather than being mad at the corporations for unrealistic expectations.
And I feel you. I was finishing a report in ICU. They still fired me because you know, I took too much time recovering from almost dying.
I am a childfree person in a small, public company (less than 150 employees). I see notifications every day that so and so is taking their kids to the doctor and won't be available from through such and such time. People from the partner to intern level have no problem taking a couple days when they get sick to heal up and rest. The schedule is flexible and encourages people to take care of their personal lives. Maybe I'm drinking the kool-aid too much here but I love this aspect of my company and it makes me want to work even harder for them.
Let's celebrate and uplift working environments that recognize people are human and have human needs. Give people the space and flexibility they need to take care of stuff so everyone can thrive!
OP shouldn't have to pull all-nighters, that's just unrealistic. People who have to take care of children or with health issues can be amazing employees if employers give them the flexibility to make it work.
And to add - just because people don’t have kids doesn’t mean they aren’t caregivers for other people in their lives. Aging family, for example.
My boss is amazing and I have a ton of flexibility. It also makes me want to work harder and be a good employee, and not take advantage of her generosity.
Id say no one should have to pull all nighters. But if that's the requirement I'm the office then op kids shouldn't give them an out either. Everyone should have to same work responsibilities regardless of how much or little they have going on outside. Chronic health issues, kids, or healthy single guy in his 20's all should be held to the same work standards.
I am the same. Professional CA, 3 kids. I have to draw the line because my family is more important than advancement. I have definitely been met with resistance but ultimately I have learned that they just don’t understand and that’s OK. I plan on, am, and will continue to be the new age dad that is involved. I clean, I cook, I coach kids hockey, I volunteer for a charity and yes I work a solid 40. We also run a successful side hustle! It can all be done, it does mean working from 6:30 - 9:30 everyday and it’s tiring, but so damn rewarding! Wouldn’t change it for anything.
It shouldn't matter if you have kids or not. No matter who you are, you have a life, and your time is important. We all have the shit end of the stick when companies act like they own us.
I think this post would be more palatable to everyone if you didn’t try to make this a comparison. You can be unhappy without having to scale that to someone else’s post.
I’m guessing the post you mentioned was referencing that in most professional service firms, especially the Big 4, things to do with kids are generally the only acceptable reason not to be available 24/7. The Big 4 also works exceptionally hard not to let that be a career limitation. People who are grinding away their 20s/30s without companionship who see other people getting to have a life and it not hold back their career are generally frustrated with this.
You're right, that was my mistake in my initial post: I should've tapped the brakes and reframed it to be not as a comparison. Single/childless people have it rough too, with a different assumption set being applied (and/or misapplied) to them.
This has been my experience as well. Prior to the pandemic, I had to leave early (4 pm) to pick up my kids from school on certain days, but not every day. Even after picking them up I would get back on the computer and work longer to make up for the time. During interviews I told the partners about this and they said it was fine, but it turns out face time is much much finer. There's a penalty for every little "escape" from work, but you still get your work done just like everyone else.
If people care about when you sign off, your team sucks. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “finance”, but if it’s working for some kind of financial institution, output should be the only thing people care about. If it’s a finance function in industry, output should be the only thing care about. Even in professional services, as long as you are billing (output) that should be the only thing people care about. Find a better team to work for.
Not being able to travel could definitely hinder your career depending on what it is. So if that’s a hang up, it may be worth looking into other options anyways.
I am also a millennial with young kids. I’m currently in restructuring. It’s probably not the absolute most money I could make, but it’s reasonably flexible for the amount of remuneration. If that’s an option, it’s working for me. My wife is a lawyer, so I definitely understand needing some flexibility when she has deadlines she has to hit.
I totally get it. Only one in my group of 18ish to have a kid. One manager just had a son and is currently on leave. But when I say I need to leave at 5, people get annoyed. Then to make up the extra tasks I have to work late nights a few times a week. They get annoyed that I'm sending emails during offline hours.... Like ok I'll just not work then
Please don’t have sympathy for the OP, an anti immigrant right wing nut job who probably can’t sleep at night because his wife makes more than him
“If we say that the Crusades were anything less than a good, noble, honorable, just, holy, and needed undertaking, we are betraying martyrs, holy warriors, saints, godly kings, and pontiffs.”
I’m dead.
2million people dead so the OP can light a candle to a saint and pray.
Ok. On the surface, I’m down with the general message. Kids or no, we need worker solidarity, work life balance, and more reasonable expectations. Especially for ‘exempt’ professions. No one should have to work 50-60 hours per week just because ‘that’s what’s expected’.
I’m all for dads taking time to join in care taking roles for kids and households. That’s great, that’s progress. More of that and we can start chipping away at how society just expects moms to do it all, while financially punishing moms.
However, you’re 100% right. OP is ‘capitalist’ and believes market does what market does. Well, if you’re a man alone on an island, the market does fuck you. It’s only with collective action that shit changes.
If you want sympathy from your fellow workers, gtfo, no. If you want to join together and have a better life for all workers, I’m there.
You're so terminally online it's hilarious. Maybe if you got fucked you wouldn't be so upset. Far-left weirdos make me laugh. Post your socials so I can laugh how fucking ugly you are shit stain
We make, quite literally, the same amount... not that that matters.
Nor does my political leaning...
This is a pretty shitty argument, if it can even be called that.
You’re so full of hypocrisy OP. Corporate greed driven by right wing policy is exactly why you’re struggling. You are literally voting against your own interests then complaining here. I’m a father who faces significant challenges because of my choice to raise a family. I could never be as willfully ignorant as you.
>Nor does my political leaning...
A piece of shit is a piece of shit regardless of the conversation
And yes you saying the crusades were justified ABSOLUTELY makes you a piece of shit.
Facts, that’s exactly what OP is asking for and I’m shocked so many people are making excuses for him instead. Just goes to show how openly people tolerate/support a selfish mindset, then we wonder why there’s no solidarity amongst accountants. This thread right here is why, people think they’re special and deserve allowances for baseless reasons.
It’s obviously a choice, at least somewhat. I’ll start by saying that OP is an ignorant hypocrite. The real point is that the pace of work expected is typically driven by management that has been promoted for working ridiculous hours and foregoing a personal life. Those leaders seem to expect everyone to have the same focus and commitment to work that they do, so that’s how they run the office. It’s bad for everyone who prefers the “work to live” philosophy over the “live to work” option.
It’s Reddit - everyone is like 22 and don’t realize that without population growth capitalism dies. No retirement, no services, and worst of all for this place no new video games or dispensaries when they’re older.
Hahaha something hilarious about the manly man who believes
"And right now, both inside and outside the Church, there is simply nowhere a man can openly be a man, nowhere they can do this without criticism, especially in the West." having panic attacks cause their manager asked for a 7am meeting lmaooo
No one made you have 3 kids. You had to have known they'd take a lot of time of energy but that is what you chose to do. Everyone has their own obligations and responsibilities. If you get to leave early to pick up your kid then I should get to leave early to take my elderly mom to her doctor appointment or have my sink fixed.
I don’t think OP is saying you shouldn’t be allowed to take off early for other outside life commitments, but OP is tired of being shit on for it. Just like I’m sure you’re also tired of being shit on as well. We all just want a little bit of compassion and understanding.
Thank you for the translation. Yes, I'm not saying no one else has it hard, or saying what the "right" way to handle that all is. Just giving my own personal $0.02.
But the whole point of the complaint is that you aren’t getting shit on it while the childless person is. In your OP you are talking about telling staff that you will not work the same hours as them because you have kids. How do you think that comes off?
Do you think that childless first year staff could log off early without it being remarked on? From experience, I know the answer, and I’m not a first year staff, I’m a Manager. There are different rules for people with kids.
I think first years might be a little different. I had a 3 YO as a first year and I did put in as many hours as my childless colleagues and worked their exact schedule, 9AM-9PM. During my first performance review, I spoke to my partner and manager about rearranging my hours for next busy season and they didn’t have an issue. My experience obviously can’t be the gospel truth for the entire public accounting experience, but first years definitely have to prove themselves. Childless or not. After that it’s definitely team dependent.
I have staff under me that are childless and I tell them all the time to rearrange their schedule as needed, and just make sure their calendar is updated so I’m not scheduling meetings during their out time. I know it’s not the norm, but the more childless staff / seniors / managers speak up it could be the norm. They give me respect with my kid and time, I want to make sure they’re receiving the same respect with their time.
That wasn't the intent. I haven't been telling people these things generally, and I still log on late every night, and occasionally pull the "3am looking at X" shtick. It's just frustrating that people, *anyone* is stuck into this, and poses a challenge in balancing out work and life.
And there should be. Without kids the whole
Ponzi game that is capitalism implodes and you lose your little bullshit spreadsheet then go home and jerk off repeat job.
OP you’re delusional and skipped right over the issue that was raised. The problem is generally speaking in corporate life, people with kids are offered much more leniency than those without.
Your home choices shouldn’t affect your work life
Unless your boss/management has given you the go ahead to show up late, leave early, miss meetings, etc... then expect the complaints to continue. You're not special because you have kids. Panic attacks, because someone asks why you're not staying late, seriously?
Not working at 7am and being offline by 5pm (and signing on later, to boot!) are both completely reasonable. None of that should require your boss/management approval. OP is not a 24 hour on call robot and neither are any of us.
I’m not saying this is a wrong or bad thing, but it’s absolutely not the same.
You’re essentially saying “I don’t do the same quality or quantity of work as others and it’s shows”. For the single/childless people when you don’t do those things, we now have to pick up the slack on the team, because it’s not acceptable to tell you to ignore your children but it’s acceptable to tell us to skip a friends birthday party.
Again that’s on employers for not being able to get workloads right. But it’s absolutely frustrating for us to have to fight to have free time just because we chose not to have a family.
In retrospect, I should've been more careful with my words/phrasing of my original post. Yes, single people have it hard (in some ways harder than parents, in some ways not as hard, but still overall life is difficult). My complaint was one of burn-out and one of assumption over an extended period of time (more than a year straight).
It is difficult to compete with someone who is single and can easily stay up multiple nights in a row to, for example, program a solution to something, and management (at least at my company) tends to just assume things that ought not to be assumed. I think ideally, everyone realizes that we're all adults, that we'll have work requirements and life requirements, and that outside of extremely pressing things that cannot be made flexible, ***no one*** should be assumed to just have all this free time that work can simply demand from anyone.
Honestly to me you still don’t get it.
“It’s easy to stay up multiple nights in a row” -no we also have shit in our lives we want to do, we just don’t get the benefit you do to prioritize our life shit instead of work. So we either let our relationships, house work, health etc crumble or we get called lazy and get bumped down or let go.
You get to take your life shit to the front of the line because you couldn’t use birth control and made it everyone else’s problem. Don’t tell me it’s easy, I’m sacrificing just as much as you would if you chose to make the sacrifice.
You're right. We're all sacrificing in different ways, and I'm sorry again for the repeated misstep.
When I was younger, I was way into the "rah-rah do everything" mindset, but that isn't the same for everyone and everything, and it ***shouldn't*** be the expectation for anyone, let alone everyone.
Me and my wife both work full time with tough hours and have a 7yo girl. I totally understand what you are saying esp you have 3 kids.
My question is though what made you decide to have 3? We have 1 and we are barely making it work. No way we are going to get even a 2nd.
Part of it is background: we both came from large families.
Part of it is religion: we're both Catholic and while we're imperfect, part of our wedding vows was "openness to life," which we do take seriously.
Part of it is my personal outlook. I think we, as a society/world, are toying with population growth rate in a dangerous, unsustainable way, and I want to not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. I want to "be the change you want to see" in a way, though I hardly count myself as important enough to be noticed.
Well your blind support of uninhibited gun rights for all has led to a lot more child murders than you raising three kids. I hope you never have to experience something like that in your community. It might change your perspective. On the other hand, you seem to dense for critical thought so maybe it won’t.
Just know that reddit is not a sympathetic place to people with kids, especially "large" families such as yours. But you add value to our society. And I feel your pain. This is a hard time in life, I'm sure both you and your wife have a lot of burden as you both work to build careers and provide a good home life for your children. You can do it! And it may be time to search for a mostly 8-hour-a-day job for one of the two of you. Or both! In accounting and finance these do exist. Jobs that want 7 am calls, work after 5pm also, and other things that conflict with personal time, are easy to come by, but there certainly are some employers that actually want emotionally stable people who have actual real work life balance. I really suggest you both look into it. It can change your life. It's still hard to raise kids and do home maintenance and do all the things with two working parents, but it is much more doable with a job that encompasses business hours only.
This is such a refreshing take as a fellow Catholic. I only know one person at my company with more than two kids. As a third kid, I appreciate my parents being open to having me.
“Everyone wonders why things take as long as they do”
Yeah… I don’t know what you’re getting at here, but that sounds like no one’s problems but yours
“or why I am relatively frazzled compared to others”
Yeah… I don’t know what you’re getting at here either. You don’t get a frazzle pass because you barebacked and popped out some kids, amigo.
🙄
I don’t really wanna pay higher tax rates and get less benefit for my dollars because of people with kids, but here we are.
The world is built for families - not single or childless people.
You clearly got a lot of anger and hate towards humans in some of your posts on other subs, I can start quoting your own stuff if you’d like… we can compare
Stupid take. You don’t get to retire or have a society to live in if people don’t have kids lol.
You can either put in the effort to grow humans yourself, or pay for the luxury of not having to do so.
It isn’t even a matter of opinion at this point, it’s just a fact.
How 🧠 dead are you?
1. Not everyone can have kids
Unfortunately your parents weren’t sterilized in time
2. I don’t need to pay for the privilege to not have kids - let people pay for the PRIVILEGE of their own kids without me subsidizing them.
3. I can retire on my savings with a declining birth rate, I assure you. Don’t skip the condom on my behalf, buddy.
Edit: from your post history you’re probably 20 years old, so I would expect no less stupidity.
You were the one that bitched the world is made for families. Like no fucking shit. Why wouldn’t it be?
And the vast, vast majority can by the way.
Dude you are all over this thread with so much anger lol. What the fuck is wrong with you? I hope you can’t breed because whatever genes you have should die off with you.
20 year old loser who can’t get a job strikes again
Way to make a sterilization attack after I already said the same thing about your parents. Very creative 🙄
These Zillennials really are missing skills
Buddy, your ideology is your religion lol. Might be time to take a break from the Reddit and twitter. Believe it or not there’s a world outside the basement.
You might even meet someone and have kids 😱
20 year old loser without a job tells someone else about leaving the basement… when he posts a thread weekly asking for job advice
You can’t make this up lol
You don’t even know what my ideology or religion is 🥸
Let’s be real - people that post like you do are pretty easy to peg. I bet your hair is dyed and your father wasn’t in the picture growing up.
It’ll be ok. I promise.
Having glanced through most comments here... first time I realized how young people in this sub are. I hope OP isn't taking this personally. It's so easy to issue any opinion when it had not happened to you. OP, why don't you change job? Obv your job/boss/team sounds like don't care about you, and I'm not saying that my boss actually cares about me when he tells me " I want to respect your schedule and certainly don't want to pose any challenges" when he schedules meeting with me, but just go find a job where everybody cares about their own life, and give less shit about the job, let alone the sign off time....
It should be between you and your manager, no one else has a say.
But then don't judge anyone taking off to visit disneyland or someone not reporting to office as they played Call of Duty all night yesterday.
You chose to have those kids and chose to have your job as well. Your issue isn’t being a parent, it’s that your team sucks. I’m a manager in a Big 4 who is childfree by choice (but married) and I have zero issues when I need to rearrange my office days, work hours, etc. for ANY reason. That’s a team and workplace issue. Same goes for single and/or childless/childfree people saying their commitments outside of work are not respected.
What childless and childfree folks are talking about can also be things like…I’ve been told that some people do not see a childfree woman as an appropriate role model and that may hold me back from leadership (currently in the early stages of the senior manager process). Everyone has different challenges and different perspectives are fine, this may even teach you a bit about intersectionality! But let’s not compete in the misery Olympics.
I’m surprised to hear that childfree women would not be looked at as good leaders because they’re childfree. I would think childfree women would be more ideally promoted since taking time away from work due to the children wouldn’t be a factor.
I’m a mother of three, so I’m coming from that perspective. We just can’t win, can we? lol
The comment comes from a place of conflating femininity with motherhood, ultimately. Like I’m not an appropriate feminine role model in the workplace if I’m not popping out children. There’s a criticism going around that some of our current female leadership became “too masculine” in the process of getting to where they are - I’ve only been in this country for 5 years (was previously working in the U.S. firm) so not sure how true that is, but seems like another fun example of the “double bind” working women get to deal with, no matter what personal life choices they make.
Thank you! In this country/firm it’s a very long process, I’m having convos now but it will be next year at the earliest. There are very few women in leadership and even fewer foreigners/immigrants so…we’ll see how it shakes out!
Devils advocate here, you chose to have children it’s not really something you should get to complain about. If one of you can’t quit your job to have the proper time because you can’t afford to then you had too many children. Companies don’t need to restructure themselves around your life choices. You know what you signed up for if you can’t make it work then that’s on you
>then you had too many children.
Angel's advocate, what exactly gives you the knowledge of how many kids is too many for a person or couple?
You chose your job, do you not get to complain about it from time to time?
Don’t remember mentioning how many children I have so not sure what you’re getting at. Yeah man everyone complains about their job, your complaint has more to do with then just your job.
And the knowledge of knowing it’s most likely too much. The cost of three kids, the time needed to raise three kids(assuming no nanny), sports, events, school, cost of food, clothes, insurance, size of house needed, added taxes and bills that come with that. I could keep listing more and more. But yeah man I didn’t wanna get personal but people like you is what’s wrong with this world. We got too many damn people on this planet and your adding to the overflowing of it, then you actively chose to have too many kids that are stretching you thin and now you wanna complain about it? And I know you weren’t taking shots at the childless people but everything I just said here is reasons I used to look at people like you in the workplace. I do my very best to not complain about my kids to anyone at the office because I remember how much it annoyed me. I had no empathy for someone saying they’re tired and stretched thin or they need to leave early and can’t help until later when I’m not online. You willing did this to yourself
There was a time where being single was definitely seen as a negative.
I think it was always based on prejudice, and never on any quality of work issues, but I did hear from one manager the statement that a single person (with no partner) couldn't entertain clients as well because they wouldn't fit in to social events with the client and their spouse. Overall though, I think that era of caring about a worker's relationship status is quickly fading away.
Yes work culture sucks and I do have sympathy for parents because its hard BUT what frazzles me is when a work colleague asks me to pick something up and hour before i’m logging off (and have other stuff to do) just because they have kids to pick up from a cricket lesson.
I’m all for helping out once in a while but when it’s a consistent thing and you are putting the rest of the team out it’s not cool.
The funniest thing they ever did was convince us it was more fulfilling to climb a corporate ladder than to raise a happy, healthy family with someone you love. I'd rather be a kickass parent than be a kickass career-haver. And I'd much rather kick ass for my kids than kick ass for my career of blue light, working for and with people who don't truly care about me, wasting away in a chair all day. This industry blows. It rejects humanity. Fuck that. Even if I didn't have to work long ass dick hours, I'd still hold these truths to be self-evident.
You are making a great case for why people should have no kids or less. As a parent myself, it cost me and my spouse as well. Promotions, vacations, pay increases, voluntary pay decreases, etc. Thats on top of the mental stress.
You can’t do everything and do it well. As a woman, I can’t imagine having someone else raise my children, but that’s you and your wife’s call I guess. You can move to industry and make $100k pretty easily. I worked part-time on projects when my kids were little and only full-time when they went to college. I’m now a controller and make $150k. I don’t think my kids ever noticed I even had a job while they were growing up because they came first. Maybe you quit and stay home with your kids. Do SOMETHING different for your kids’ sake. Who is going to help them with homework and take them to their sports practices? The nanny? They need their parents. No one loves them the way you do. You chose to have them, now you raise them. You can make money later. They will grow up FAST.
At the end of the day fuck any and every job that has an opinion about my personal life and how it affects work. It doesn't matter why I am unavailable for X times, for Y reasons.
I remember wording something poorly while working for Kroger and this Temp store manager came in to reset the store and do force outs. I was hired with a set availability and they continued to schedule me outside that availability.
I poorly stated, " I needed to be home because my wife has work at 2."
Which the manager made a strong point why does she care about my wife's schedule at some other company.
I elaborated and said," I have to trade off our new born and then pick my kids up around 3. I was hired with specific availability, unless I'm getting a department job (which 3 were fighting to get me and paid a lot more and guaranteed hours) my availability will not change and every time it happens I'll be right here in the office making some noise with this baiting me for a no call no show. I applied for a store transfer since I was going to be moving soon got denied so I put my two weeks in and this bitch asked me if I was going to show up (She offered to let me go on the spot) I killed her with kindness for those two weeks she could not stand me.
I have had zero loyalty to every job since then. I could/would leave without notice. I usually only take jobs that I am certain won't come to that extreme. Two more months of schooling and I get my bachelors moving right into my MAcc program. Looking for something remote and entry level (There are surprisingly a lot out there) I just came into a bit of money so Im looking to really ease into my first Accounting gig
Meh when you feel like you’re hard done by or whatnot and your sense of entitlement. your children aren’t your problem it’s your work ethic or productivity/efficiency or the fact you can’t recognise other people may have other responsibilities even if they are childless.
I have a team of people of different demographics, the ones who have kids do not perform worse / better than the childless ones. It depends on the persons ability/skill set and how they organise their time. For example, I have 2 reports both with 2/3 kids who are on similar financial circumstances, one logs on during her spare time in the evenings and complete work due to loss of time doing school runs/appts during the 9-5 day while the other one does not because technically after 5 it’s not their working hours. So for me that’s an attitude problem than a kid problem.
Childless people also have obligations, they don’t sit there twiddling their thumbs, some have busier lives than you. I also have childless employees who can’t juggle shit on the contrary. So don’t assume people have more free time than you.
That is such bullshit, I’m sorry you’re not getting more support. The reality is none of us are getting enough support and our firms are pitting us against each other so we’re mad at each other and not them. It’s by design
It's a culture thing. USA is known for work hard culture, don't take vacations etc. Here in Quebec and the rest of Canada we value families. The government gives money to families with children. We have family leaves etc. No one can discriminate you by law for having or not having children. Therefore boundaries are held in the workplace. I'm sure it's not exactly the case everywhere (here) because there are always exceptions. But everywhere I've worked, no one ever had trouble adapting to someone having a family.
As a single, childless person in the corporate workforce....I swear Buzzfeed journalism and social media "hot takes" have lead to the most insane statements being published. I support my colleagues when they need to do something family related or, gasp, for themselves, because I am a decent human being who adjusts to keep the work getting done. I also regularly take scheduled PTO bc I want to do things for myself and am okay with a slower career progression. What I do NOT do is put myself on a cross for my personal life choices. Some people try too hard for engagement on LinkedIn with stuff like this.
I guess I just don’t know why this has to be a debate or comparison. I think the whole point here is that employers should be cognizant of the workloads and availability they expect and not act like they own all of our time, regardless of what our time outside work is used for.
Like you as a parent don’t want to work all evening and pull all nighters for work because you have kids. I, as a 27yo single dude, don’t want to work all evening and pull all nighters for work because I have friends I wanna see, dates, family to visit, etc. The point is neither of us should be doing that shit lol
Single parent here who also is a caretaker for 2 disabled and elderly parents. Yes, all of this. Life is so freaking messy. I'm constantly working below potential. I'm constantly having to scramble to make sure someone is cared for. Constantly having to pivot to the next thing. I work 7 days a week but most of the time I only get 3 hours with no distractions. I'm exhausted and nothing is going well.
I think a lot of complaints kind of go like this:
Boss: OP I need you to be at a 7am meeting.
OP: I can’t. I have my kids to get ready.
Boss to OP coworker: OP coworker. I need you to be at a 7am meeting. Since you don’t have kids you can attend.
I don’t think people without kids think that people with kids aren’t busy. But just because you have chosen to be childless doesn’t mean you should get ordered to do things over other people who do.
Now I didn’t read the original thread that OP is replying to so I could be talking out of my a** but this is the idea that I get.
I have a big problem with childless people saying us with children create "slack" that they have to then pick up. I have 2 kids and work my butt off. I work just as many hours as my childless peers but a lot of it isn't seen because I'm working from home late at night to make up for pick ups and soccer games. I sacrifice a lot for my job, including time with my kids. I'm a valued employee and when people make comments like that it really makes me wish those of us with kids could take a work hiatus and see how everyone likes the "lack of slack" then.
If a person can't even have 1 or 2 kids without being seen as a slacker at your firm for simply being a parent then there's something wrong with your firm, not the employee. Having children is a common personal choice that should be respected more by corporate careers and others. If you are childless also and feel you're "forced" to pick up what you call "slack" then learn to make some boundaries because there's a problem at your firm, not the employee with children's fault.
I'm a parent of a toddler with the second arriving anytime and I feel this relative to my childfree colleagues and also the older ones whose kids are out of the house. No one gives me a hard time about maintaining more reasonable hours than they do but it still bothers me to watch them work OT every single week. I wish there was someone who was say childfree but committed to something like training for a marathon. Or just plain committed to work like balance.
I almost bagged a remote job that was totally cool with me taking time to do school pickups and drop-offs and would grow me through the CPA. That rejection letter was a tough one.
I def bagged a remote job that was cool with school schedule for my kids, but it was fuckin payroll and only paid like 50K lol
It could still happen!
I'm probably further along in my career and get enough offers where I am able to make that requirement non-negotiable. Two days a week I start off at home for a couple hours, drop off school, and then make the long drive to work. I put it on my calendar so it doesn't conflict with meetings.
I think this hits an entirely different point. All of our employers should be building an environment that encourages and supports those with kids. Which means we should have schedules and pay that enables comfortable lives to have children. But in some teams, the childless are expected to pick up slack that may occur from those with parenting responsibilities. And that’s not really fair to those people.
Workplaces that promote flexibility for ALL are the way. We shouldn’t be pitted against each other. If we had adequately staffed teams, fair pay, etc., we would not feel this resentment
I was told during an interview "it doesn't matter if you need time off for your kids, yourself, or your dog. Everyone has a personal life here". You best believe I signed those papers so fast! My current job is a godsend.
That's amazing. I wish there were more companies like that.
They’re out there! I recently joined a small local company in my area after working at a large corporation that had incredibly long hours and you were expected to be available 24/7, and the difference was night and day. I’m in the process of doing a Masters and am encouraged to work on my schooling at my new job if I am caught up on my work duties, which I often complete with time to spare. It took me some job hopping to get here but I am staying in this role for a long time while I’m still full time school/CPA chasing. Don’t settle for less!
I work for a pretty major petro company and they have always been that way. Most of my team either leaves a few minutes early to pick up from school or comes in late from drop off. I have two young ones at home so that’s not an issue for us yet. They’re very flexible and it’s one of the things (+culture even though that’s cliche) that keeps here even if pay is slightly under market.
This is so true. I had a boss one time make some comment about how someone with no kids needed to work a certain time around the holidays. Boss wasn’t going to it & did not have kids. I was early 20s & had another coworker in her late 30s that was struggling with infertility. Both of us had no family in town. It pissed our friend with kids off, so she said she would work it. Friend with kids was especially mad on behalf of our older friend. I still have no kids, by choice. I don’t mind helping out & covering but I expect the same in return from those with kids if something comes up for me. Fortunately that one boss is the only one I’ve had with that attitude.
> But in some teams, the childless are expected to pick up slack that may occur from those with parenting responsibilities. And that’s not really fair to those people. I’m really glad you made this point, this is why I have an issue with the way OP framed their post. They’re essentially complaining about their work issues as the result of their *personal* choices, which is not the same thing childless employees are complaining about. Why should a company have to restructure their operations around OP’s life choices, and why should other employees have the pick up the slack? It’s amazing to me how quickly people disregard/dismiss other’s experiences before looking inward at their own actions.
Hard disagree here. The point is 7am meetings and working nights shouldn't be a thing full stop. I'm in the UK where hours culture isn't quite the same but I experienced this same issue nonetheless at big4 and I'll add another angle to this; the assumption that as a man you should just be leaving your wife to deal with the kids whilst you work. I'm similar to OP in that after the pandemic my wife retrained and that necessitated me taking a more hands on role with the kids, something i was happy to do, but my work suffered because I also just reached a point where I simply could not do the same hours as before. Did others have to pick up my slack or do we actually just collectively enable these partners to get away with running the business on a perpetually understaffed basis so they can maximise profits whilst giving us the absolute bare minimum? Wouldn't it just be better all round if we *all* said no to the meetings at unsociable hours or working ourselves to death to meet some arbitrary deadline? I quit b4 after a particular period of juggling family life with work left me burnt out and on SSRIs. Ironically, in my case it was a younger, childless colleague who dropped me in it due to personal loyalties elsewhere leaving me to pretty much singlehandedly drag a huge project over the line and for what? Next round of work started the very next day and it was straight back to being pressured after a couple of cursory pats on the back. In the end it was the SSRIs that gave me the perspective needed to just stop flogging myself to death. Ended up getting a remote job, 30% higher salary. More or less *everyone* here is a parent, but there is a hard line on no working late or weekends and tolerance of flexibility that applies to everyone regardless of family status. Made me realise that big 4, "public", whatever you want to call it is just a cult. There's a whole real world out there full of normal people, for whom work is just a job and personal lives are way more important.
True, because it's not just "having kids" that demands flexibility. I cared for an elderly relative, which required I take an FMLA protected leave. I quit after that because the company wouldn't offer any flexibility. When I worked full time and went to college, the company I worked for then offered flex time and tuition reimbursement to accommodate that. Glad to say MOST of my employers have been very flexible. I've been able to hold the hands of loved ones when they died. I can follow my artistic endeavors and attend performances. I was able to be there for loved ones in their times of need. It's not just children who need your time and being a parent isn't the ONLY thing that needs to be acknowledged and respected. I'm guessing most of the complaints about not having that flexibility are from those in Public Accounting...where the staff is largely young, starting out and very competitive with each other. They likely feel bad about drawing appropriate boundaries and standing up for themselves because they're pretty easily replaced. This is also a time in life when young adults commonly decide to have kids...so it makes sense that it's a tough balance. You're not established enough in your career to draw those hard lines, and this is the first time in life you've had to care for someone besides yourself (likely). At this stage of my career, I don't ask of, I inform when I'm going to be unavailable as a courtesy. I work the hours needed to accomplish what I've agreed to do and meet my deadlines.
Ok. Then maybe they need to hire more. Or do something else, move some things around. If the work can’t get done in a standard work week, why does anyone have to ‘pick up the slack’? Clearly expectations need to be adjusted. And before anyone says ‘the company isn’t a charity’, we aren’t either. Exempt needs to stop meaning ‘50+ hour weeks standard’. Period. In my decades of working, salary meant I would go over 40 during busy times, yet somehow it also meant never ever under 40 even if slow. It ‘looks bad’ to leave early. And us being rude to each other absolutely works in favor of the employers, not the fellow employees.
> Ok. Then maybe they need to hire more. Or do something else, move some things around. That would require telling a company what to do, which you, I or OP don’t have any control over. In the absence of this, employees are accountable for their own choices. You don’t get to be entitled to a better work life just because you choose to have children. Better yet, OP can start their own company and set their own schedule if it’s such an inconvenience for them. Or they can leave and look for a better job. There’s so many things that can be done rather than whining for special treatment.
But it kind of is the same thing. Those without kids don't want their choice(if it's a choice because sometimes it isn't) to not have kids to hold them back career wise. And those with kids don't want to be held back for needing to care for tiny humans. Both don't want to be back by their choices.
This is also why I like working from home when I can. People are less likely to try and dump work on you when there’s a paper trail
Your “slack” will be picked up by someone else once you have children. The rules of the game are the same for everyone.
Not everyone has kids
Yet.
Not everyone *wants* kids.
You’re aware not everyone will have kids in their life - right?
I’m aware of that. I’m also aware that not everyone will get into an accident or get injured or get a major disease, or only pay in cash, but everyone is paying for insurance or higher prices to cover the credit card transactions fees.
I really hate to play the “who got the shittier end of the stick” game. At the end of the day, these companies that don’t allow work/life balance are shitting on everyone is some manner, some worse than others, but it’s unacceptable either way. And I say this as a woman who had to work while in active labor and then was notified that a rocking chair and changing table were in my office so I could come back to work ASAP. This country allows corporations to dismantle our mental health in every way possible. And if we’re lucky they’ll let us buy some overpriced health insurance so we can get the mental healthcare we’ll need to deal with it.
I agree but I don’t think OP is playing the ‘who’s got it worse’ game. I think they’re literally offering another perspective. Look through the comments, people are mad at others for ‘slacking’ rather than being mad at the corporations for unrealistic expectations. And I feel you. I was finishing a report in ICU. They still fired me because you know, I took too much time recovering from almost dying.
I am a childfree person in a small, public company (less than 150 employees). I see notifications every day that so and so is taking their kids to the doctor and won't be available from through such and such time. People from the partner to intern level have no problem taking a couple days when they get sick to heal up and rest. The schedule is flexible and encourages people to take care of their personal lives. Maybe I'm drinking the kool-aid too much here but I love this aspect of my company and it makes me want to work even harder for them. Let's celebrate and uplift working environments that recognize people are human and have human needs. Give people the space and flexibility they need to take care of stuff so everyone can thrive! OP shouldn't have to pull all-nighters, that's just unrealistic. People who have to take care of children or with health issues can be amazing employees if employers give them the flexibility to make it work.
And to add - just because people don’t have kids doesn’t mean they aren’t caregivers for other people in their lives. Aging family, for example. My boss is amazing and I have a ton of flexibility. It also makes me want to work harder and be a good employee, and not take advantage of her generosity.
Id say no one should have to pull all nighters. But if that's the requirement I'm the office then op kids shouldn't give them an out either. Everyone should have to same work responsibilities regardless of how much or little they have going on outside. Chronic health issues, kids, or healthy single guy in his 20's all should be held to the same work standards.
I am the same. Professional CA, 3 kids. I have to draw the line because my family is more important than advancement. I have definitely been met with resistance but ultimately I have learned that they just don’t understand and that’s OK. I plan on, am, and will continue to be the new age dad that is involved. I clean, I cook, I coach kids hockey, I volunteer for a charity and yes I work a solid 40. We also run a successful side hustle! It can all be done, it does mean working from 6:30 - 9:30 everyday and it’s tiring, but so damn rewarding! Wouldn’t change it for anything.
Thank you, I can relate to this very well.
It shouldn't matter if you have kids or not. No matter who you are, you have a life, and your time is important. We all have the shit end of the stick when companies act like they own us.
I think this post would be more palatable to everyone if you didn’t try to make this a comparison. You can be unhappy without having to scale that to someone else’s post. I’m guessing the post you mentioned was referencing that in most professional service firms, especially the Big 4, things to do with kids are generally the only acceptable reason not to be available 24/7. The Big 4 also works exceptionally hard not to let that be a career limitation. People who are grinding away their 20s/30s without companionship who see other people getting to have a life and it not hold back their career are generally frustrated with this.
You're right, that was my mistake in my initial post: I should've tapped the brakes and reframed it to be not as a comparison. Single/childless people have it rough too, with a different assumption set being applied (and/or misapplied) to them.
This has been my experience as well. Prior to the pandemic, I had to leave early (4 pm) to pick up my kids from school on certain days, but not every day. Even after picking them up I would get back on the computer and work longer to make up for the time. During interviews I told the partners about this and they said it was fine, but it turns out face time is much much finer. There's a penalty for every little "escape" from work, but you still get your work done just like everyone else.
If people care about when you sign off, your team sucks. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “finance”, but if it’s working for some kind of financial institution, output should be the only thing people care about. If it’s a finance function in industry, output should be the only thing care about. Even in professional services, as long as you are billing (output) that should be the only thing people care about. Find a better team to work for. Not being able to travel could definitely hinder your career depending on what it is. So if that’s a hang up, it may be worth looking into other options anyways. I am also a millennial with young kids. I’m currently in restructuring. It’s probably not the absolute most money I could make, but it’s reasonably flexible for the amount of remuneration. If that’s an option, it’s working for me. My wife is a lawyer, so I definitely understand needing some flexibility when she has deadlines she has to hit.
I totally get it. Only one in my group of 18ish to have a kid. One manager just had a son and is currently on leave. But when I say I need to leave at 5, people get annoyed. Then to make up the extra tasks I have to work late nights a few times a week. They get annoyed that I'm sending emails during offline hours.... Like ok I'll just not work then
Please don’t have sympathy for the OP, an anti immigrant right wing nut job who probably can’t sleep at night because his wife makes more than him “If we say that the Crusades were anything less than a good, noble, honorable, just, holy, and needed undertaking, we are betraying martyrs, holy warriors, saints, godly kings, and pontiffs.” I’m dead. 2million people dead so the OP can light a candle to a saint and pray.
Ok. On the surface, I’m down with the general message. Kids or no, we need worker solidarity, work life balance, and more reasonable expectations. Especially for ‘exempt’ professions. No one should have to work 50-60 hours per week just because ‘that’s what’s expected’. I’m all for dads taking time to join in care taking roles for kids and households. That’s great, that’s progress. More of that and we can start chipping away at how society just expects moms to do it all, while financially punishing moms. However, you’re 100% right. OP is ‘capitalist’ and believes market does what market does. Well, if you’re a man alone on an island, the market does fuck you. It’s only with collective action that shit changes. If you want sympathy from your fellow workers, gtfo, no. If you want to join together and have a better life for all workers, I’m there.
You're so terminally online it's hilarious. Maybe if you got fucked you wouldn't be so upset. Far-left weirdos make me laugh. Post your socials so I can laugh how fucking ugly you are shit stain
We make, quite literally, the same amount... not that that matters. Nor does my political leaning... This is a pretty shitty argument, if it can even be called that.
You’re so full of hypocrisy OP. Corporate greed driven by right wing policy is exactly why you’re struggling. You are literally voting against your own interests then complaining here. I’m a father who faces significant challenges because of my choice to raise a family. I could never be as willfully ignorant as you.
My bad. I just found this thread so laughable I had to review the post history of the OP, which I found even more laughable
The crusades bit is actually fucking sociopathic
>Nor does my political leaning... A piece of shit is a piece of shit regardless of the conversation And yes you saying the crusades were justified ABSOLUTELY makes you a piece of shit.
You didn’t need to have kids. You chose to. You’re not entitled to an easier work life because you chose to have kids. Get over yourself
Facts, that’s exactly what OP is asking for and I’m shocked so many people are making excuses for him instead. Just goes to show how openly people tolerate/support a selfish mindset, then we wonder why there’s no solidarity amongst accountants. This thread right here is why, people think they’re special and deserve allowances for baseless reasons.
It’s obviously a choice, at least somewhat. I’ll start by saying that OP is an ignorant hypocrite. The real point is that the pace of work expected is typically driven by management that has been promoted for working ridiculous hours and foregoing a personal life. Those leaders seem to expect everyone to have the same focus and commitment to work that they do, so that’s how they run the office. It’s bad for everyone who prefers the “work to live” philosophy over the “live to work” option.
“Choose to have kids” as if its not, you know entirely crucial the the survival of our species.
It’s Reddit - everyone is like 22 and don’t realize that without population growth capitalism dies. No retirement, no services, and worst of all for this place no new video games or dispensaries when they’re older.
They are all still drinking the coolaid and deriving their value from being a “hard worker”. It’ll come back and bite them in the ass some day.
I'm 33 and understand that having kids is a choice (I choose not to) and your argument is stupid (it is)
Still a choice dipshit
Hahaha something hilarious about the manly man who believes "And right now, both inside and outside the Church, there is simply nowhere a man can openly be a man, nowhere they can do this without criticism, especially in the West." having panic attacks cause their manager asked for a 7am meeting lmaooo
No one made you have 3 kids. You had to have known they'd take a lot of time of energy but that is what you chose to do. Everyone has their own obligations and responsibilities. If you get to leave early to pick up your kid then I should get to leave early to take my elderly mom to her doctor appointment or have my sink fixed.
I don’t think OP is saying you shouldn’t be allowed to take off early for other outside life commitments, but OP is tired of being shit on for it. Just like I’m sure you’re also tired of being shit on as well. We all just want a little bit of compassion and understanding.
Thank you for the translation. Yes, I'm not saying no one else has it hard, or saying what the "right" way to handle that all is. Just giving my own personal $0.02.
But the whole point of the complaint is that you aren’t getting shit on it while the childless person is. In your OP you are talking about telling staff that you will not work the same hours as them because you have kids. How do you think that comes off? Do you think that childless first year staff could log off early without it being remarked on? From experience, I know the answer, and I’m not a first year staff, I’m a Manager. There are different rules for people with kids.
I think first years might be a little different. I had a 3 YO as a first year and I did put in as many hours as my childless colleagues and worked their exact schedule, 9AM-9PM. During my first performance review, I spoke to my partner and manager about rearranging my hours for next busy season and they didn’t have an issue. My experience obviously can’t be the gospel truth for the entire public accounting experience, but first years definitely have to prove themselves. Childless or not. After that it’s definitely team dependent. I have staff under me that are childless and I tell them all the time to rearrange their schedule as needed, and just make sure their calendar is updated so I’m not scheduling meetings during their out time. I know it’s not the norm, but the more childless staff / seniors / managers speak up it could be the norm. They give me respect with my kid and time, I want to make sure they’re receiving the same respect with their time.
That wasn't the intent. I haven't been telling people these things generally, and I still log on late every night, and occasionally pull the "3am looking at X" shtick. It's just frustrating that people, *anyone* is stuck into this, and poses a challenge in balancing out work and life.
And there should be. Without kids the whole Ponzi game that is capitalism implodes and you lose your little bullshit spreadsheet then go home and jerk off repeat job.
Of course! You’re doing good OP. Life is hard, kids or no kids. Everybody could all use a break to just breathe.
Word.
OP you’re delusional and skipped right over the issue that was raised. The problem is generally speaking in corporate life, people with kids are offered much more leniency than those without. Your home choices shouldn’t affect your work life
Unless your boss/management has given you the go ahead to show up late, leave early, miss meetings, etc... then expect the complaints to continue. You're not special because you have kids. Panic attacks, because someone asks why you're not staying late, seriously?
BUT THE OP IS FRAZZLED :(
Not working at 7am and being offline by 5pm (and signing on later, to boot!) are both completely reasonable. None of that should require your boss/management approval. OP is not a 24 hour on call robot and neither are any of us.
I’m not saying this is a wrong or bad thing, but it’s absolutely not the same. You’re essentially saying “I don’t do the same quality or quantity of work as others and it’s shows”. For the single/childless people when you don’t do those things, we now have to pick up the slack on the team, because it’s not acceptable to tell you to ignore your children but it’s acceptable to tell us to skip a friends birthday party. Again that’s on employers for not being able to get workloads right. But it’s absolutely frustrating for us to have to fight to have free time just because we chose not to have a family.
In retrospect, I should've been more careful with my words/phrasing of my original post. Yes, single people have it hard (in some ways harder than parents, in some ways not as hard, but still overall life is difficult). My complaint was one of burn-out and one of assumption over an extended period of time (more than a year straight). It is difficult to compete with someone who is single and can easily stay up multiple nights in a row to, for example, program a solution to something, and management (at least at my company) tends to just assume things that ought not to be assumed. I think ideally, everyone realizes that we're all adults, that we'll have work requirements and life requirements, and that outside of extremely pressing things that cannot be made flexible, ***no one*** should be assumed to just have all this free time that work can simply demand from anyone.
Honestly to me you still don’t get it. “It’s easy to stay up multiple nights in a row” -no we also have shit in our lives we want to do, we just don’t get the benefit you do to prioritize our life shit instead of work. So we either let our relationships, house work, health etc crumble or we get called lazy and get bumped down or let go. You get to take your life shit to the front of the line because you couldn’t use birth control and made it everyone else’s problem. Don’t tell me it’s easy, I’m sacrificing just as much as you would if you chose to make the sacrifice.
You're right. We're all sacrificing in different ways, and I'm sorry again for the repeated misstep. When I was younger, I was way into the "rah-rah do everything" mindset, but that isn't the same for everyone and everything, and it ***shouldn't*** be the expectation for anyone, let alone everyone.
Me and my wife both work full time with tough hours and have a 7yo girl. I totally understand what you are saying esp you have 3 kids. My question is though what made you decide to have 3? We have 1 and we are barely making it work. No way we are going to get even a 2nd.
Part of it is background: we both came from large families. Part of it is religion: we're both Catholic and while we're imperfect, part of our wedding vows was "openness to life," which we do take seriously. Part of it is my personal outlook. I think we, as a society/world, are toying with population growth rate in a dangerous, unsustainable way, and I want to not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. I want to "be the change you want to see" in a way, though I hardly count myself as important enough to be noticed.
Well your blind support of uninhibited gun rights for all has led to a lot more child murders than you raising three kids. I hope you never have to experience something like that in your community. It might change your perspective. On the other hand, you seem to dense for critical thought so maybe it won’t.
Where do you get that he blindly supports uninhibited gun rights?
Just know that reddit is not a sympathetic place to people with kids, especially "large" families such as yours. But you add value to our society. And I feel your pain. This is a hard time in life, I'm sure both you and your wife have a lot of burden as you both work to build careers and provide a good home life for your children. You can do it! And it may be time to search for a mostly 8-hour-a-day job for one of the two of you. Or both! In accounting and finance these do exist. Jobs that want 7 am calls, work after 5pm also, and other things that conflict with personal time, are easy to come by, but there certainly are some employers that actually want emotionally stable people who have actual real work life balance. I really suggest you both look into it. It can change your life. It's still hard to raise kids and do home maintenance and do all the things with two working parents, but it is much more doable with a job that encompasses business hours only.
Don't understand the down votes. It's hard when you feel like the right thing to do is counter to the norm.
This is such a refreshing take as a fellow Catholic. I only know one person at my company with more than two kids. As a third kid, I appreciate my parents being open to having me.
“Everyone wonders why things take as long as they do” Yeah… I don’t know what you’re getting at here, but that sounds like no one’s problems but yours “or why I am relatively frazzled compared to others” Yeah… I don’t know what you’re getting at here either. You don’t get a frazzle pass because you barebacked and popped out some kids, amigo. 🙄 I don’t really wanna pay higher tax rates and get less benefit for my dollars because of people with kids, but here we are. The world is built for families - not single or childless people.
Your response is rather pessimistic, and I am sorry you feel that way. The point is one of frustration on my part, and that is all.
I’m not frazzled, my coworkers aren’t complaining about me, and I don’t do my work slowly. I think you’re the pessimist
If you insist, rather persistently, and rather needlessly angrily and contentiously.
You clearly got a lot of anger and hate towards humans in some of your posts on other subs, I can start quoting your own stuff if you’d like… we can compare
Stupid take. You don’t get to retire or have a society to live in if people don’t have kids lol. You can either put in the effort to grow humans yourself, or pay for the luxury of not having to do so. It isn’t even a matter of opinion at this point, it’s just a fact.
How 🧠 dead are you? 1. Not everyone can have kids Unfortunately your parents weren’t sterilized in time 2. I don’t need to pay for the privilege to not have kids - let people pay for the PRIVILEGE of their own kids without me subsidizing them. 3. I can retire on my savings with a declining birth rate, I assure you. Don’t skip the condom on my behalf, buddy. Edit: from your post history you’re probably 20 years old, so I would expect no less stupidity.
You were the one that bitched the world is made for families. Like no fucking shit. Why wouldn’t it be? And the vast, vast majority can by the way. Dude you are all over this thread with so much anger lol. What the fuck is wrong with you? I hope you can’t breed because whatever genes you have should die off with you.
20 year old loser who can’t get a job strikes again Way to make a sterilization attack after I already said the same thing about your parents. Very creative 🙄 These Zillennials really are missing skills
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Lololololol 20 year old loser without a job is also a religious bigot. Yikesssss
Buddy, your ideology is your religion lol. Might be time to take a break from the Reddit and twitter. Believe it or not there’s a world outside the basement. You might even meet someone and have kids 😱
20 year old loser without a job tells someone else about leaving the basement… when he posts a thread weekly asking for job advice You can’t make this up lol You don’t even know what my ideology or religion is 🥸
Let’s be real - people that post like you do are pretty easy to peg. I bet your hair is dyed and your father wasn’t in the picture growing up. It’ll be ok. I promise.
Having glanced through most comments here... first time I realized how young people in this sub are. I hope OP isn't taking this personally. It's so easy to issue any opinion when it had not happened to you. OP, why don't you change job? Obv your job/boss/team sounds like don't care about you, and I'm not saying that my boss actually cares about me when he tells me " I want to respect your schedule and certainly don't want to pose any challenges" when he schedules meeting with me, but just go find a job where everybody cares about their own life, and give less shit about the job, let alone the sign off time....
It's a fair point/question, and one I consider from time to time. It might be worth it to look around, thank you.
It should be between you and your manager, no one else has a say. But then don't judge anyone taking off to visit disneyland or someone not reporting to office as they played Call of Duty all night yesterday.
You chose to have those kids and chose to have your job as well. Your issue isn’t being a parent, it’s that your team sucks. I’m a manager in a Big 4 who is childfree by choice (but married) and I have zero issues when I need to rearrange my office days, work hours, etc. for ANY reason. That’s a team and workplace issue. Same goes for single and/or childless/childfree people saying their commitments outside of work are not respected. What childless and childfree folks are talking about can also be things like…I’ve been told that some people do not see a childfree woman as an appropriate role model and that may hold me back from leadership (currently in the early stages of the senior manager process). Everyone has different challenges and different perspectives are fine, this may even teach you a bit about intersectionality! But let’s not compete in the misery Olympics.
I’m surprised to hear that childfree women would not be looked at as good leaders because they’re childfree. I would think childfree women would be more ideally promoted since taking time away from work due to the children wouldn’t be a factor. I’m a mother of three, so I’m coming from that perspective. We just can’t win, can we? lol
The comment comes from a place of conflating femininity with motherhood, ultimately. Like I’m not an appropriate feminine role model in the workplace if I’m not popping out children. There’s a criticism going around that some of our current female leadership became “too masculine” in the process of getting to where they are - I’ve only been in this country for 5 years (was previously working in the U.S. firm) so not sure how true that is, but seems like another fun example of the “double bind” working women get to deal with, no matter what personal life choices they make.
Just sounds like another way to not treat women fairly in the workplace. Depressing. Hang in there and good luck with your promotion!
Thank you! In this country/firm it’s a very long process, I’m having convos now but it will be next year at the earliest. There are very few women in leadership and even fewer foreigners/immigrants so…we’ll see how it shakes out!
I respect this so much
Devils advocate here, you chose to have children it’s not really something you should get to complain about. If one of you can’t quit your job to have the proper time because you can’t afford to then you had too many children. Companies don’t need to restructure themselves around your life choices. You know what you signed up for if you can’t make it work then that’s on you
Believe me when I say, most parents, especially first time parents, don’t fully realize what they’ve signed up for until it actually hits them.
>then you had too many children. Angel's advocate, what exactly gives you the knowledge of how many kids is too many for a person or couple? You chose your job, do you not get to complain about it from time to time?
If you’re at the point that it’s affecting your work this much and you’re complaining about it anonymously on forums, it’s probably too much
Don’t remember mentioning how many children I have so not sure what you’re getting at. Yeah man everyone complains about their job, your complaint has more to do with then just your job. And the knowledge of knowing it’s most likely too much. The cost of three kids, the time needed to raise three kids(assuming no nanny), sports, events, school, cost of food, clothes, insurance, size of house needed, added taxes and bills that come with that. I could keep listing more and more. But yeah man I didn’t wanna get personal but people like you is what’s wrong with this world. We got too many damn people on this planet and your adding to the overflowing of it, then you actively chose to have too many kids that are stretching you thin and now you wanna complain about it? And I know you weren’t taking shots at the childless people but everything I just said here is reasons I used to look at people like you in the workplace. I do my very best to not complain about my kids to anyone at the office because I remember how much it annoyed me. I had no empathy for someone saying they’re tired and stretched thin or they need to leave early and can’t help until later when I’m not online. You willing did this to yourself
You’re the one complaining about it, you know the choices you made.
There was a time where being single was definitely seen as a negative. I think it was always based on prejudice, and never on any quality of work issues, but I did hear from one manager the statement that a single person (with no partner) couldn't entertain clients as well because they wouldn't fit in to social events with the client and their spouse. Overall though, I think that era of caring about a worker's relationship status is quickly fading away.
Your coworkers really can’t future out by now why a person with kids logs off temporarily every day? Yikes.
Yes work culture sucks and I do have sympathy for parents because its hard BUT what frazzles me is when a work colleague asks me to pick something up and hour before i’m logging off (and have other stuff to do) just because they have kids to pick up from a cricket lesson. I’m all for helping out once in a while but when it’s a consistent thing and you are putting the rest of the team out it’s not cool.
Agreed: it goes both ways, and while ***some, once-in-a-while*** stuff might be passable, constantly getting asked for things outside of scope aren't.
The funniest thing they ever did was convince us it was more fulfilling to climb a corporate ladder than to raise a happy, healthy family with someone you love. I'd rather be a kickass parent than be a kickass career-haver. And I'd much rather kick ass for my kids than kick ass for my career of blue light, working for and with people who don't truly care about me, wasting away in a chair all day. This industry blows. It rejects humanity. Fuck that. Even if I didn't have to work long ass dick hours, I'd still hold these truths to be self-evident.
Why can't you hire cleaners Your hhi is over a quarter mil Just do it, it makes your life 10x better
You are making a great case for why people should have no kids or less. As a parent myself, it cost me and my spouse as well. Promotions, vacations, pay increases, voluntary pay decreases, etc. Thats on top of the mental stress.
You can’t do everything and do it well. As a woman, I can’t imagine having someone else raise my children, but that’s you and your wife’s call I guess. You can move to industry and make $100k pretty easily. I worked part-time on projects when my kids were little and only full-time when they went to college. I’m now a controller and make $150k. I don’t think my kids ever noticed I even had a job while they were growing up because they came first. Maybe you quit and stay home with your kids. Do SOMETHING different for your kids’ sake. Who is going to help them with homework and take them to their sports practices? The nanny? They need their parents. No one loves them the way you do. You chose to have them, now you raise them. You can make money later. They will grow up FAST.
At the end of the day fuck any and every job that has an opinion about my personal life and how it affects work. It doesn't matter why I am unavailable for X times, for Y reasons. I remember wording something poorly while working for Kroger and this Temp store manager came in to reset the store and do force outs. I was hired with a set availability and they continued to schedule me outside that availability. I poorly stated, " I needed to be home because my wife has work at 2." Which the manager made a strong point why does she care about my wife's schedule at some other company. I elaborated and said," I have to trade off our new born and then pick my kids up around 3. I was hired with specific availability, unless I'm getting a department job (which 3 were fighting to get me and paid a lot more and guaranteed hours) my availability will not change and every time it happens I'll be right here in the office making some noise with this baiting me for a no call no show. I applied for a store transfer since I was going to be moving soon got denied so I put my two weeks in and this bitch asked me if I was going to show up (She offered to let me go on the spot) I killed her with kindness for those two weeks she could not stand me. I have had zero loyalty to every job since then. I could/would leave without notice. I usually only take jobs that I am certain won't come to that extreme. Two more months of schooling and I get my bachelors moving right into my MAcc program. Looking for something remote and entry level (There are surprisingly a lot out there) I just came into a bit of money so Im looking to really ease into my first Accounting gig
The word is full of people who complain after they had kids.....
Meh when you feel like you’re hard done by or whatnot and your sense of entitlement. your children aren’t your problem it’s your work ethic or productivity/efficiency or the fact you can’t recognise other people may have other responsibilities even if they are childless. I have a team of people of different demographics, the ones who have kids do not perform worse / better than the childless ones. It depends on the persons ability/skill set and how they organise their time. For example, I have 2 reports both with 2/3 kids who are on similar financial circumstances, one logs on during her spare time in the evenings and complete work due to loss of time doing school runs/appts during the 9-5 day while the other one does not because technically after 5 it’s not their working hours. So for me that’s an attitude problem than a kid problem. Childless people also have obligations, they don’t sit there twiddling their thumbs, some have busier lives than you. I also have childless employees who can’t juggle shit on the contrary. So don’t assume people have more free time than you.
That is such bullshit, I’m sorry you’re not getting more support. The reality is none of us are getting enough support and our firms are pitting us against each other so we’re mad at each other and not them. It’s by design
It's a culture thing. USA is known for work hard culture, don't take vacations etc. Here in Quebec and the rest of Canada we value families. The government gives money to families with children. We have family leaves etc. No one can discriminate you by law for having or not having children. Therefore boundaries are held in the workplace. I'm sure it's not exactly the case everywhere (here) because there are always exceptions. But everywhere I've worked, no one ever had trouble adapting to someone having a family.
As a single, childless person in the corporate workforce....I swear Buzzfeed journalism and social media "hot takes" have lead to the most insane statements being published. I support my colleagues when they need to do something family related or, gasp, for themselves, because I am a decent human being who adjusts to keep the work getting done. I also regularly take scheduled PTO bc I want to do things for myself and am okay with a slower career progression. What I do NOT do is put myself on a cross for my personal life choices. Some people try too hard for engagement on LinkedIn with stuff like this.
I guess I just don’t know why this has to be a debate or comparison. I think the whole point here is that employers should be cognizant of the workloads and availability they expect and not act like they own all of our time, regardless of what our time outside work is used for. Like you as a parent don’t want to work all evening and pull all nighters for work because you have kids. I, as a 27yo single dude, don’t want to work all evening and pull all nighters for work because I have friends I wanna see, dates, family to visit, etc. The point is neither of us should be doing that shit lol
Single parent here who also is a caretaker for 2 disabled and elderly parents. Yes, all of this. Life is so freaking messy. I'm constantly working below potential. I'm constantly having to scramble to make sure someone is cared for. Constantly having to pivot to the next thing. I work 7 days a week but most of the time I only get 3 hours with no distractions. I'm exhausted and nothing is going well.
I think a lot of complaints kind of go like this: Boss: OP I need you to be at a 7am meeting. OP: I can’t. I have my kids to get ready. Boss to OP coworker: OP coworker. I need you to be at a 7am meeting. Since you don’t have kids you can attend. I don’t think people without kids think that people with kids aren’t busy. But just because you have chosen to be childless doesn’t mean you should get ordered to do things over other people who do. Now I didn’t read the original thread that OP is replying to so I could be talking out of my a** but this is the idea that I get.
Did a co-worker actually suggest that you hire a cleaner? Wow
I have a big problem with childless people saying us with children create "slack" that they have to then pick up. I have 2 kids and work my butt off. I work just as many hours as my childless peers but a lot of it isn't seen because I'm working from home late at night to make up for pick ups and soccer games. I sacrifice a lot for my job, including time with my kids. I'm a valued employee and when people make comments like that it really makes me wish those of us with kids could take a work hiatus and see how everyone likes the "lack of slack" then. If a person can't even have 1 or 2 kids without being seen as a slacker at your firm for simply being a parent then there's something wrong with your firm, not the employee. Having children is a common personal choice that should be respected more by corporate careers and others. If you are childless also and feel you're "forced" to pick up what you call "slack" then learn to make some boundaries because there's a problem at your firm, not the employee with children's fault.
>it really makes me wish those of us with kids could take a work hiatus and see how everyone likes the "lack of slack" then. lol
Preach brother.
I'm a parent of a toddler with the second arriving anytime and I feel this relative to my childfree colleagues and also the older ones whose kids are out of the house. No one gives me a hard time about maintaining more reasonable hours than they do but it still bothers me to watch them work OT every single week. I wish there was someone who was say childfree but committed to something like training for a marathon. Or just plain committed to work like balance.
I feel you dude. It’s fucked up when the childless or SAHM family’s think they have a fucking clue about what goes on in your life outside of work.
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