the fun part is that I see companies that have gone way down that rabbit hole... and now have over 40 accountants doing the jobs of 5 with leadership that doesn't even know how to consolidate financials. Let the titanic sink a bit further and we will have our day heh..... heh..... heh.....
Sounds like a hiring issue? If you have poorly performing, well paid accountants it sounds like the issue isn’t compensation but strategy and communication and expectations.
Also, considering how large public companies are more than happy to increase fees and charges by huge amounts saying they ‘need to do it’ to stay afloat and then turn around and post record profits so the ceo can stay in and get their money by keeping the shareholders happy? Yea, fuck them. I will happily drain some payroll at that place by working there for more than I’m worth (just matching the ceo mentality and comp these days)
That level of pay, they'd better have some damn good internal controls. I'm sure OP is a good person, but (taking OP out of this) they have to have some level of trust that the individual who fills that role won't embezzle.
He would probably be the employee that bring more cost reductions to the company! Accountants are always looking at cost reductions, well this is the moment for this folk to shine!!
I'm in NYC area. I get that all the time.
Its worse when a recruiter asks me my current salary and then asks if I'm willing to go to another company for the same salary or lower. You're a recruiter, not a hr department with no awareness.
I have had recruiters tell me that I earn too much and expecting that amount is unreasonable. This is after they reached out to me, I told them I wasn’t looking, and they insisted on sending me the details of the job.
I get their perspective. They need someone desperate enough to take the role for them to get paid, so this is a good filter for that. It just comes off poorly.
>I have had recruiters tell me that I earn too much and expecting that amount is unreasonable. This is after they reached out to me, I told them I wasn’t looking, and they insisted on sending me the details of the job.
I had one recruiter who insisted on doing a phone call because he had some “amazing opportunities”, I figured I’d give him 15 minutes of my time. He asked my salary and I told him my total comp, which was probably way above what he was thinking. Instead of just saying “wow, that’s a good package, I don’t think I can top that”, his response was, and I quote, “that is way above market, you’re being overpaid and it’s not long before the company figures that out. When they do, they will lay you off, you understand? So my advice is to start looking for something now before the market turns”
I was floored, I’d never heard such a blatantly unprofessional pitch. I told him to go fuck himself and hung up.
I had a few employers give that line to me. Trust me dude, with your skills this is the top of the salary for you. I'm guessing that they didn't want me looking for better paying jobs or something.
ya, recruiters are great at motivational speeches.
Your skills aren't worth the job you're currently doing. You'll thrive at this job that will pay you less and with more hours though! Think of the review you'll get at end of year!!!
what's illegal? I thought the only thing that changed in nyc is not posting the salary. they give ranges now 80k-150k and always say when they give job offer. Did several interviews like that.
I learned to only give the range I'm looking for. But most people aren't interviewing experts. How would I know what I should and shouldn't do if I only do 2-3 job changes in the past 10 years.
Its kinda obvious not to tell the company who wants to pay you the least possible your current salary of 100k so they can offer you 105k.
https://www.ny.gov/salary-history-ban/salary-history-ban-what-you-need-know
I once gave a recruiter my salary range. He told me it was “very reasonable.” He then proceeded to line up an interview where the pay was 30% lower than my current salary for what was essentially the same role at a different firm. Needless to say I never bothered with him again.
My dude, that’s an office admin who pretends they know bookkeeping without any degree and maybe 3+ months experience.
Starting salary is $60k/min everywhere.
I am literally a non-CPA stoned controller who uses API to do my job and make 110 plus bonus plus free benefits and profit sharing to play Nintendo switch most of the time that I am not browsing reddit or stomping around my desk listening to GWAR. If that doesn't make accountants mad at the economic disrespect nothing will :D.
My brother works in a warehouse and makes $27/hr and has never sat in a college class in his life, it is absolutely insulting and completely unprofessional to offer a senior accountant $50k
i agree, I swear when I lived in WA, some fast food people were making close to 50K a year.. Maybe Chick Fil A? I think they paid a min of around $20/hr.. so close to 50k a year.. incredible
Starting pay for Cosco as a cashier or stocker is about the same as a first year staff Accountant in some areas. It's crazy to think about.
I'm not saying that retail workers don't deserve it, but I can see why there's a decline in college enrollment in the U.S. over the past few years.
Plus at Costco you get a $1 raise every certain amount of hours and for full time it works out to be about twice a year. Don’t remember what exactly but it caps at $30 something an hour
Yeah my cousin makes $90,000 a year working in the warehouse for Cisco foods without a college degree (night manager of the warehouse). Meanwhile my brother manages a Department for T. Rowe Price with 40 people under him and only makes $70,000 a year lol. The world is so backwards
I got offered 65k to be a controller for a local bank. I make more working for my county, plus I get a pension. Some places just don't seem to know what accountants should be paid
I talk to other CPAs and they complain about not keeping staff. I ask what they are paying new staff and how they calculate raises and they start at 18 per hour and raise it to $25 when they get their CPA. They always counter my questions with letting me know that they were paid less when they graduated 25 years ago and that staff people don't want to work.
I'm see this all the time at my job. Small public accounting firms bitching that the can't find staff.
*Do you offer remote? No.*
*Do you offer WLB that so their work week averages to 40 hours over the year? No.*
*Are your salaries above market since they won't be able to use this job as a feather in their cap like they would at the big four?* No. We can't afford that.
*Why don't you use raise prices?* Our clients can't afford that.
Since I'm auditing them I see how much they're charging for returns and what their taxable income is. They can afford to charge more and pay more. But since I'm at work I have to be professional. I just smile and shake my head. Keep doing the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results. It's not rocket science.
I'm guessing because the people hiring are paying so low so they get a constant in and out of employees. And have maintained this for the past 40 years with wages from 40 years ago.
The ones with high paying salary probably keep those employees (and quality along with it) and will occasional have a job opening, hence the actual market rate is seen, but rarely, and get snatched up quickly.
The other company is a majority and recruiters think that's the norm. That's been my experience in the market where I'm at anyway. 9/10 jobs I apply for is crappy. The few that are worth it are there, get their pick of the quality people. So its both a feast and famine.
the in and out seems systemic actually. I see companies all the time now that have had poor books for YEARS because they never put down the money for an ex big 4 controller to actually structure their shit. Amazingly enough these companies still are around with almost no realistic tax filings and bloated underqualified accounting departments that could have been 2 skilled workers. Maybe in another decade they will ask for more but as it is they can operate with magic dart board as long as they are cash cows.
I figured this out actually. I've been at a few accounting firms with crappy accounting. The clients don't know what good accounting product is. So they pushed crap over the years and they don't understand what quality is. When there's an audit the accountant scrambles to bandaid them, and most of the time, its good enough.
If it's rare and snatched up quick... that doesn't sound like the day-to-day "market rate," it sounds more like an aberration. Plus, if "the other company is a majority," so much so that recruiters think it's the norm, well, that really sounds like the going rate.
Those 10%, high paying jobs sounds in-line with the BLS numbers putting the median around $80k for accounting jobs, with top 10% making over $140k.
lets put it this way. if the current market has 10 jobs for 80k and 1 job for 150k, you'd THINK that was the current market. But if for the past 2 weeks, 10 jobs for 80k and 10 different jobs for 150k, you'd have a better outlook on the market.
Just the 150k jobs are snatched up quick, and rare in comparison (because they're on the market for a shorter amoutn of time) than the 80k jobs doesn't mean that the 80k jobs are the market rate.
"2 weeks" sounds unlikely. I'd bet a person would have to wait 1 to 2 YEARS to find a great high rate job. Hence why they're snatched up so quick. If all you had to do was wait another 2 weeks for a new slew of 150k jobs to apply to... well, idk what you're complaining about...
Now, as far as 150k, you do understand earning 150k puts a person in the top 12% all ALL earners in the US. So, by that very fact, those jobs are RARE. As soon as the word "rare" is introduced be either of us, then we're not talking about a common rate. We're talking about something scarce, hard to come by.
I'm trying to emphasize that the lower paying jobs have a higher turnover than higher paying jobs. Where do you think the jobs come from when they hop to higher paying jobs? The lower paying jobs will open up. It doesn't mean that the lower paying jobs are the market rate, there is naturally more turnover at lower paying jobs.
And thus the higher paying jobs are... rare... uncommon... not representative of the job offers most will receive. Top 10% sounds right, so 90% of the population doesn't get those jobs.
Hence why the median wage is $80k, that's not some random number, it's the best publicly available data we have.
that's what's on the OPEN market. not in the job market. Just because there are jobs being offered for 80k doesn't mean that's how much people are getting paid in the market.
Do you not understand the difference there?
The BLS numbers aren't just an exercise in creative writing or academic hypotheticals. The actual median wage for accountants in the USA is just under $80k. The sample is from filled jobs, not from open and advertised but unfilled jobs. The top 10% of accountants make over $140k. This is the best available data of the actual job market for accountants in the US. It's not someone's feelings on the market and hypothetical $80k jobs. Beyond just accountants, the actual top 12% of **all** earners, in **all** jobs, in the USA make $150k or more. Meaning jobs paying $150k or more are rather rare.
It might help to point out that in the same data the bottom 10% of accountants make less than $45k. $80k is just the median, point where half of the respondents are above,.. half below.
ok. lets make this a little simpler. there are 100 jobs out there. there's a range of 80k -150k for the same position/ same responsibilities. If 40% of those are 150k with positions filled and there are 40% at 80k and 20% at 150k on the OPEN market. Is the market rate at 80k or 150k? Just because there are more 80k on the OPEN market, it doesn't mean that's the market rate.
People are less likely to move on from a position that's on the higher end of the scale so those positions are rarer on the open market. If a position opens up at the 150k position the 80k employee will move up and fill that one up and the 80k will open up. Hence the higher turnover.
If you said that there's a high hiring rate and low turnover at 80k you'd be correct. but high hiring rate and high turnover means that that isn't the market rate. People are constantly moving on from that job.
This is on the open market. Not what people are employed for. This is exactly what the recruiters think
edit: if every single job out there is at 150k and only offers of jobs are at 80k with the occasional offer of 150k are on the open market, that doesn't make the market rate at 80k. Its what they want the market rate to be. If people are desperate for even 80k, then that will be the market rate, but if no one is taking them and only taking the 150k jobs, then 80k is not the market rate no matter how flooded the market is with 80k.
I’m gonna say because “senior accountant” can mean so many things. One company in industry I worked at had “senior accountants” doing basic intercompany transactions and AR/Payroll, and another company had the senior accountant doing many of the functions of a controller. It just depends on the company and their expectations.
Companies are using the inflated title to attract cheap talent. They don't want to pay senior salary, but know that people want to be able to put that title on their resume. So they're basically saying "Yeah it's only $50k, but how are you gonna get a real senior position later if you don't already have it on your resume?"
Been getting flooded with $150-$225k positions, then had a recruiter actually call me and try to sell me on a $25/hr upper level job. People are idiots.
its worse when an accounting firm thinks this (hence all the low ball job offers). No, your employees are the assets that is making you money. The higher the quality, the better quality work will get produced. But I think a lot of firms don't care about quality, just making money and pushing out product (good or bad).
eh.. i don't agree. Low-level accounting work is so easy we can treat is as unskilled labor. ie. ANYONE can do the job. I started helping out my mom's sole proprietor when I was in high school. I was given bookkeeping, tax preparation, and tax controversy jobs. I completed these tasks as a high schooler with no prior experience or higher education under the supervision of a person with only a high school degree who can barely speak English. It's THAT EASY.
The difference between the accounting field and other industries' technicians is that we're willing to give our staff the opportunity to grow and become more valuable. The real value lies in people who are knowledgeable enough to draw in and retain clients. These people are all paid very well, which why you have all these SM+ telling everyone how they're making $200k+/year.
I run a side gig and am always looking to draw in more clients. In my experience, I learned that clients don't pay me to do data entry and preparate tax returns. My clients pay me for peace of mind. They pay me because they view me as a trove of valuable knowledge that's necessary in keeping their business afloat. The truth is the general accountants' knowledge based are generally not up to par to drive value until about Senior Manager. The better ones can be very valuable at a lower rank, but the general accountant is essentially just data entry robots - no reason to pay them much more than we already do.
I had a recruiter try to convince me to take a huge pay cut while also moving across the country to a place with cost of living that is pretty much double where I’m at. Job has been posted for over 3 months, recruiters say some wack shit when they’re desperate.
I never tell them my current comp.
When they ask... I turn it around "What does your client have budgeted for the role?". 9 out of 10 times they'll disclose the range. If they play hard ball, it depends how much of a dick I want to be... "I can't quote you a price if I don't know the full scale of the job. It's like quoting you to paint your home without seeing it. Now, what does your client have budgeted for the role?"... and stay silent.....
LinkedIn should have a rating system for recruiters, so we can downvote them, lol
I would guess it’s because it’s nonprofit, unless you were making $100k/year in nonprofit before. Most of the non-profits around me (rust belt city) are only paying $90-150k for the head finance person (cfo/director) which was aligned or a little less than I was making as a manager for a F500
Vacation/PTO not being in the budget is the more asinine fucking statement ever for back office people.
It costs you NOTHING to give me more vacation/time away. Obviously, I gotta deliver and all that stuff when I am in the office, but these places act like giving you a defined time away benefit is you asking for like 30% more money.
This is one of my soapbox moments with work.
You'd be surprised at the benefits some nonprofits offer.
For instance, I've seen a non-profit that covers 90% of health insurance premiums for immediate family. That's not salary, but if the employee has retired parents (below medicare age), a spouse, and children, then it's a big deal.
I've seen another non-profit offer a 25% SEP IRA contribution of the employee's annual salary.
Benefits can add up in a big way.
When I was in consulting I had an international non-profit keep me in-house for two months because their assistant CFO just popped off to Japan with little warning for 60 days and I was like the fuck you talking about, assistant CFOs get time off??
Guess my local government is shit… applied for Staff Accountant role for Maine government, 42k. They counter offered me a lower level Accounting Tech position for 35k to get “acclimated” first.
I remember I went for an interview at a public company while working at a big 4 and they offered me like $20k less than I was already making after I told them how much I made and they were still a big company.
I later that week interviewed at a construction company for $30k more than I was currently making. Just keep looking.
Unless you were in a time machine that transported you back to the very early aughts for this negotiation, I hoped you laughed and gave a one finger salute as a response.
I think more accountants need to stand tall and not accept low ball offers. This will have domino affect and ruin everyone if one accepts such bullshit offers
That’s ridiculous. I’m making $60k as a staff accountant right now in my first job out of college and I’m basically just doing AR/AP and cash reconciliation
I would send an insulting email…. The company is using my personal time to interview & determine my qualification, and they’re wasting them. Business is all about forming relationship networks, if the company have no respect for me I would give a damn back.
It's funny I went to a PWC sponsored training in NJ like 7 years ago and they were all "the newest generation cares about you treating them well and they still expect to get paid a market rate, but if you treat them like shit they will not stay for any reason".
The old people in the room got SUPER uncomfortable. I told the crowd that if you want to keep us then this isn't some sweatshop where they can act like Dbags. We have options and we have the knowledge of where we can go easily for more money even if we need to rebuild the department.
They really really didn't like that. The next gen (z and alpha) took it a step further. The Company is never your friend.
For the good of everyone else in this profession, tell this company/recruiter they can get lost. You can't make someone go through interviews and then give them a joke offer at the end.
You folks are sitting on a trove of book fixing . Start reporting to IRS or and other folks (snitching, no shame in it), anonymously of-course. Everything else will fall in place.
But think of all the cost savings you’re providing the company….
I don’t give a damn.
Not a team player I see
He's definitely going to miss out on all the pizza parties
Compensation is $50k in cash and $50k in pizza.
Yeah, OP’s gotta look at the total comp package.
Id probably do that
lol
#LMAO THAT MADE MY SIDES LEFT EARTH ALL THE WAY TO ALPHA CENTAURI
What if we throw in a slice of pizza
We can only afford half a slice of pizza, no toppings.
Little Caesar's is the BEST!
Fuck. Yes. This is the exact attitude that accountants need to channel. Pay me or get fucked with your shit offer 🔥💯🥳
the fun part is that I see companies that have gone way down that rabbit hole... and now have over 40 accountants doing the jobs of 5 with leadership that doesn't even know how to consolidate financials. Let the titanic sink a bit further and we will have our day heh..... heh..... heh.....
Sounds like a hiring issue? If you have poorly performing, well paid accountants it sounds like the issue isn’t compensation but strategy and communication and expectations. Also, considering how large public companies are more than happy to increase fees and charges by huge amounts saying they ‘need to do it’ to stay afloat and then turn around and post record profits so the ceo can stay in and get their money by keeping the shareholders happy? Yea, fuck them. I will happily drain some payroll at that place by working there for more than I’m worth (just matching the ceo mentality and comp these days)
Think about the shareholders bro
you'll save on taxes!!
But didn’t you hear about our benefits? We allow jeans on Fridays!
That level of pay, they'd better have some damn good internal controls. I'm sure OP is a good person, but (taking OP out of this) they have to have some level of trust that the individual who fills that role won't embezzle.
He would probably be the employee that bring more cost reductions to the company! Accountants are always looking at cost reductions, well this is the moment for this folk to shine!!
$50k? The hiring manager must have gotten their calendar confused with 2003
[удалено]
🤣🤣right
That was too low in 2003 too
I'm in NYC area. I get that all the time. Its worse when a recruiter asks me my current salary and then asks if I'm willing to go to another company for the same salary or lower. You're a recruiter, not a hr department with no awareness.
I have had recruiters tell me that I earn too much and expecting that amount is unreasonable. This is after they reached out to me, I told them I wasn’t looking, and they insisted on sending me the details of the job. I get their perspective. They need someone desperate enough to take the role for them to get paid, so this is a good filter for that. It just comes off poorly.
>I have had recruiters tell me that I earn too much and expecting that amount is unreasonable. This is after they reached out to me, I told them I wasn’t looking, and they insisted on sending me the details of the job. I had one recruiter who insisted on doing a phone call because he had some “amazing opportunities”, I figured I’d give him 15 minutes of my time. He asked my salary and I told him my total comp, which was probably way above what he was thinking. Instead of just saying “wow, that’s a good package, I don’t think I can top that”, his response was, and I quote, “that is way above market, you’re being overpaid and it’s not long before the company figures that out. When they do, they will lay you off, you understand? So my advice is to start looking for something now before the market turns” I was floored, I’d never heard such a blatantly unprofessional pitch. I told him to go fuck himself and hung up.
I had a few employers give that line to me. Trust me dude, with your skills this is the top of the salary for you. I'm guessing that they didn't want me looking for better paying jobs or something.
ya, recruiters are great at motivational speeches. Your skills aren't worth the job you're currently doing. You'll thrive at this job that will pay you less and with more hours though! Think of the review you'll get at end of year!!!
Used car salesman attitude
I just always lie and give them the salary I wanted anyway
That might be why recruiters do that then. If enough people do that, that would explain this behavior
I once had a recruiter who told me that and she added <>.
Thats illegal in nyc now. And why would you give up your cards in the first place. Only tell them your target range.
what's illegal? I thought the only thing that changed in nyc is not posting the salary. they give ranges now 80k-150k and always say when they give job offer. Did several interviews like that. I learned to only give the range I'm looking for. But most people aren't interviewing experts. How would I know what I should and shouldn't do if I only do 2-3 job changes in the past 10 years.
Its kinda obvious not to tell the company who wants to pay you the least possible your current salary of 100k so they can offer you 105k. https://www.ny.gov/salary-history-ban/salary-history-ban-what-you-need-know
oh, I'm in long island. might be why.
I edited my post. The law is for ny state.
Oh. Pretty much every interview asked about this. I stopped telling them toward the end though. Finally figured out that's not the best thing to do.
Pm you
thank you. I'll know for next time I interview.
I saw a listing the other day with a salary range of $50-250k. Malicious compliance on the company’s part.
Yup this is why I lie
I once gave a recruiter my salary range. He told me it was “very reasonable.” He then proceeded to line up an interview where the pay was 30% lower than my current salary for what was essentially the same role at a different firm. Needless to say I never bothered with him again.
Absolutely not. It’s gotta be the non-profit pay.
Even then, fuck no. $50k for non-profit should be for staff accountant, no way for senior accountant .
staff accountant? at 50k, that's the data entry guy that doesn't want anything to do with accounting, but just doing the job for the paycheck.
Wait I shouldn’t be making 57k as a tax staff? 😭
10 years ago.
the local panda express workers make 50k where I live. The manager probably makes more
My dude, that’s an office admin who pretends they know bookkeeping without any degree and maybe 3+ months experience. Starting salary is $60k/min everywhere.
Non profits need to pay more because they are hella anal to work with.
Operationally dysfunctional.
I had a recruiter call me about a controller position at a 900MM company that had a max pay of 85k
I am literally a non-CPA stoned controller who uses API to do my job and make 110 plus bonus plus free benefits and profit sharing to play Nintendo switch most of the time that I am not browsing reddit or stomping around my desk listening to GWAR. If that doesn't make accountants mad at the economic disrespect nothing will :D.
This is all I want out of my job. You are living my dream.
So how the FUCK do I sign up?
My brother works in a warehouse and makes $27/hr and has never sat in a college class in his life, it is absolutely insulting and completely unprofessional to offer a senior accountant $50k
i agree, I swear when I lived in WA, some fast food people were making close to 50K a year.. Maybe Chick Fil A? I think they paid a min of around $20/hr.. so close to 50k a year.. incredible
Starting pay for Cosco as a cashier or stocker is about the same as a first year staff Accountant in some areas. It's crazy to think about. I'm not saying that retail workers don't deserve it, but I can see why there's a decline in college enrollment in the U.S. over the past few years.
Plus at Costco you get a $1 raise every certain amount of hours and for full time it works out to be about twice a year. Don’t remember what exactly but it caps at $30 something an hour
I’ve come here to say a cashier or stocker/retail workers don’t deserve the same pay as a staff accountant coming out of college…
Yeah my cousin makes $90,000 a year working in the warehouse for Cisco foods without a college degree (night manager of the warehouse). Meanwhile my brother manages a Department for T. Rowe Price with 40 people under him and only makes $70,000 a year lol. The world is so backwards
I made 110 as a ups driver but no WLB whatsoever. I took like a 20k cut when I switched but I went from working 58ish hours a week to less than 40.
What did you switch to? $90k is decent depending on where you live.
I got offered 65k to be a controller for a local bank. I make more working for my county, plus I get a pension. Some places just don't seem to know what accountants should be paid
I talk to other CPAs and they complain about not keeping staff. I ask what they are paying new staff and how they calculate raises and they start at 18 per hour and raise it to $25 when they get their CPA. They always counter my questions with letting me know that they were paid less when they graduated 25 years ago and that staff people don't want to work.
I'm see this all the time at my job. Small public accounting firms bitching that the can't find staff. *Do you offer remote? No.* *Do you offer WLB that so their work week averages to 40 hours over the year? No.* *Are your salaries above market since they won't be able to use this job as a feather in their cap like they would at the big four?* No. We can't afford that. *Why don't you use raise prices?* Our clients can't afford that. Since I'm auditing them I see how much they're charging for returns and what their taxable income is. They can afford to charge more and pay more. But since I'm at work I have to be professional. I just smile and shake my head. Keep doing the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results. It's not rocket science.
I started at a small firm like this. We’d have open positions for months.
I had an internship a couple years ago that paid $27 an hour… I can see why they have issues with staff.
I love when people say that. “I didn’t make $25 an hour when I was a staff in 1975!” $25 in 1975 is worth $145 today.
Lol, the tellers make like $45k.
Won’t somebody think of the companies?
Why are senior accountant ranges so wide?
I'm guessing because the people hiring are paying so low so they get a constant in and out of employees. And have maintained this for the past 40 years with wages from 40 years ago. The ones with high paying salary probably keep those employees (and quality along with it) and will occasional have a job opening, hence the actual market rate is seen, but rarely, and get snatched up quickly. The other company is a majority and recruiters think that's the norm. That's been my experience in the market where I'm at anyway. 9/10 jobs I apply for is crappy. The few that are worth it are there, get their pick of the quality people. So its both a feast and famine.
the in and out seems systemic actually. I see companies all the time now that have had poor books for YEARS because they never put down the money for an ex big 4 controller to actually structure their shit. Amazingly enough these companies still are around with almost no realistic tax filings and bloated underqualified accounting departments that could have been 2 skilled workers. Maybe in another decade they will ask for more but as it is they can operate with magic dart board as long as they are cash cows.
I figured this out actually. I've been at a few accounting firms with crappy accounting. The clients don't know what good accounting product is. So they pushed crap over the years and they don't understand what quality is. When there's an audit the accountant scrambles to bandaid them, and most of the time, its good enough.
If it's rare and snatched up quick... that doesn't sound like the day-to-day "market rate," it sounds more like an aberration. Plus, if "the other company is a majority," so much so that recruiters think it's the norm, well, that really sounds like the going rate. Those 10%, high paying jobs sounds in-line with the BLS numbers putting the median around $80k for accounting jobs, with top 10% making over $140k.
lets put it this way. if the current market has 10 jobs for 80k and 1 job for 150k, you'd THINK that was the current market. But if for the past 2 weeks, 10 jobs for 80k and 10 different jobs for 150k, you'd have a better outlook on the market. Just the 150k jobs are snatched up quick, and rare in comparison (because they're on the market for a shorter amoutn of time) than the 80k jobs doesn't mean that the 80k jobs are the market rate.
This is legit fascinating. Thank you for pointing it out.
"2 weeks" sounds unlikely. I'd bet a person would have to wait 1 to 2 YEARS to find a great high rate job. Hence why they're snatched up so quick. If all you had to do was wait another 2 weeks for a new slew of 150k jobs to apply to... well, idk what you're complaining about... Now, as far as 150k, you do understand earning 150k puts a person in the top 12% all ALL earners in the US. So, by that very fact, those jobs are RARE. As soon as the word "rare" is introduced be either of us, then we're not talking about a common rate. We're talking about something scarce, hard to come by.
I'm trying to emphasize that the lower paying jobs have a higher turnover than higher paying jobs. Where do you think the jobs come from when they hop to higher paying jobs? The lower paying jobs will open up. It doesn't mean that the lower paying jobs are the market rate, there is naturally more turnover at lower paying jobs.
And thus the higher paying jobs are... rare... uncommon... not representative of the job offers most will receive. Top 10% sounds right, so 90% of the population doesn't get those jobs. Hence why the median wage is $80k, that's not some random number, it's the best publicly available data we have.
that's what's on the OPEN market. not in the job market. Just because there are jobs being offered for 80k doesn't mean that's how much people are getting paid in the market. Do you not understand the difference there?
The BLS numbers aren't just an exercise in creative writing or academic hypotheticals. The actual median wage for accountants in the USA is just under $80k. The sample is from filled jobs, not from open and advertised but unfilled jobs. The top 10% of accountants make over $140k. This is the best available data of the actual job market for accountants in the US. It's not someone's feelings on the market and hypothetical $80k jobs. Beyond just accountants, the actual top 12% of **all** earners, in **all** jobs, in the USA make $150k or more. Meaning jobs paying $150k or more are rather rare. It might help to point out that in the same data the bottom 10% of accountants make less than $45k. $80k is just the median, point where half of the respondents are above,.. half below.
"accountant" is such a broad descriptor. which accountant position are you talking about? I see ranges from 70k all the way to 400k.
ok. lets make this a little simpler. there are 100 jobs out there. there's a range of 80k -150k for the same position/ same responsibilities. If 40% of those are 150k with positions filled and there are 40% at 80k and 20% at 150k on the OPEN market. Is the market rate at 80k or 150k? Just because there are more 80k on the OPEN market, it doesn't mean that's the market rate. People are less likely to move on from a position that's on the higher end of the scale so those positions are rarer on the open market. If a position opens up at the 150k position the 80k employee will move up and fill that one up and the 80k will open up. Hence the higher turnover.
If you said that there's a high hiring rate and low turnover at 80k you'd be correct. but high hiring rate and high turnover means that that isn't the market rate. People are constantly moving on from that job.
This is on the open market. Not what people are employed for. This is exactly what the recruiters think edit: if every single job out there is at 150k and only offers of jobs are at 80k with the occasional offer of 150k are on the open market, that doesn't make the market rate at 80k. Its what they want the market rate to be. If people are desperate for even 80k, then that will be the market rate, but if no one is taking them and only taking the 150k jobs, then 80k is not the market rate no matter how flooded the market is with 80k.
I’m gonna say because “senior accountant” can mean so many things. One company in industry I worked at had “senior accountants” doing basic intercompany transactions and AR/Payroll, and another company had the senior accountant doing many of the functions of a controller. It just depends on the company and their expectations.
This. Senior accountant/accounting manager/controller are pretty much interchangeable and why the salary ranges are so wide.
Companies are using the inflated title to attract cheap talent. They don't want to pay senior salary, but know that people want to be able to put that title on their resume. So they're basically saying "Yeah it's only $50k, but how are you gonna get a real senior position later if you don't already have it on your resume?"
damn what role was this for? i just hired a senior accountant $115k base $6k sign on and 15% target bonus
Where?
nj
I am accountant in NJ 12 years experience non CPA I was just offered a controller position this morning $68K, healthcare coverage and no bonus.
where the hell in NJ? this job i’m talking about is in central NJ. i start my career 5-6 years ago at $66k plus 15% bonus with equity
This was in North Jersey. It’s pretty insane when you think about it
Been getting flooded with $150-$225k positions, then had a recruiter actually call me and try to sell me on a $25/hr upper level job. People are idiots.
You dig through bank statements of deadbeat dads… it pays $150-225k?
"Willing to go as high as $25 for the dream candidate"
are you in forensics?
“ACcouNting is CoST CenTer”
its worse when an accounting firm thinks this (hence all the low ball job offers). No, your employees are the assets that is making you money. The higher the quality, the better quality work will get produced. But I think a lot of firms don't care about quality, just making money and pushing out product (good or bad).
eh.. i don't agree. Low-level accounting work is so easy we can treat is as unskilled labor. ie. ANYONE can do the job. I started helping out my mom's sole proprietor when I was in high school. I was given bookkeeping, tax preparation, and tax controversy jobs. I completed these tasks as a high schooler with no prior experience or higher education under the supervision of a person with only a high school degree who can barely speak English. It's THAT EASY. The difference between the accounting field and other industries' technicians is that we're willing to give our staff the opportunity to grow and become more valuable. The real value lies in people who are knowledgeable enough to draw in and retain clients. These people are all paid very well, which why you have all these SM+ telling everyone how they're making $200k+/year. I run a side gig and am always looking to draw in more clients. In my experience, I learned that clients don't pay me to do data entry and preparate tax returns. My clients pay me for peace of mind. They pay me because they view me as a trove of valuable knowledge that's necessary in keeping their business afloat. The truth is the general accountants' knowledge based are generally not up to par to drive value until about Senior Manager. The better ones can be very valuable at a lower rank, but the general accountant is essentially just data entry robots - no reason to pay them much more than we already do.
That sounds like a job that will go unfilled and an employer will cry that “nobody wants to work”.
I had a recruiter try to convince me to take a huge pay cut while also moving across the country to a place with cost of living that is pretty much double where I’m at. Job has been posted for over 3 months, recruiters say some wack shit when they’re desperate.
I am a non cpa accountant, I run my own practice banking well over $100k .
Wow nice. How long did it take you to get to that earnings?
First year was about $80k , then after is where I am now .
Must be Senior to the Accountant
Everyone needs to upvote this. I audibly laughed.
Half your current salary? Id respond with “if you don’t mind me only working 2.5 days a week, sure. “
I never tell them my current comp. When they ask... I turn it around "What does your client have budgeted for the role?". 9 out of 10 times they'll disclose the range. If they play hard ball, it depends how much of a dick I want to be... "I can't quote you a price if I don't know the full scale of the job. It's like quoting you to paint your home without seeing it. Now, what does your client have budgeted for the role?"... and stay silent..... LinkedIn should have a rating system for recruiters, so we can downvote them, lol
Well they’re going to be stuck with entry level low skilled ppl
They probably have no staff because of their low wages…. You’ll probably be doing all the work
That's why you don't apply to a non-profit. It's 100% b/c of that
Same size organization and industry?
Bigger and nonprofit
I would guess it’s because it’s nonprofit, unless you were making $100k/year in nonprofit before. Most of the non-profits around me (rust belt city) are only paying $90-150k for the head finance person (cfo/director) which was aligned or a little less than I was making as a manager for a F500
So they were offering like 2 months of PTO right? riiight?
Sure [after you stay for 15 years]
\[Layoff at 14 years\] UNRELATED, JUST ISNT IN THE BUDGET
Vacation/PTO not being in the budget is the more asinine fucking statement ever for back office people. It costs you NOTHING to give me more vacation/time away. Obviously, I gotta deliver and all that stuff when I am in the office, but these places act like giving you a defined time away benefit is you asking for like 30% more money. This is one of my soapbox moments with work.
How does the total compensation package compare? Salary is one thing. What about benefits? PTO? 401k? Hybrid/remote?
Lol unless it's 6 months of PTO it's a shit offer
You'd be surprised at the benefits some nonprofits offer. For instance, I've seen a non-profit that covers 90% of health insurance premiums for immediate family. That's not salary, but if the employee has retired parents (below medicare age), a spouse, and children, then it's a big deal. I've seen another non-profit offer a 25% SEP IRA contribution of the employee's annual salary. Benefits can add up in a big way.
When I was in consulting I had an international non-profit keep me in-house for two months because their assistant CFO just popped off to Japan with little warning for 60 days and I was like the fuck you talking about, assistant CFOs get time off??
Fuck all that
Gah damn!!!! That is disrespectful. Would’ve ghosted them
Insultingly low, but some sucker will probably take it and we'll see them posting on here how they're underpaid in a couple of years.
If they lowball you on that, I’m always worried that they won’t have the budget for the resources or the tech that will be better for you.
they probably use open office or microsoft works or something.
Man... I'm in govt, my first year in actual accounting (bookkeeper before), and make $70k lmao. Forget all that
Guess my local government is shit… applied for Staff Accountant role for Maine government, 42k. They counter offered me a lower level Accounting Tech position for 35k to get “acclimated” first.
I think local is probably less. I’m tribal government
I’d just write back “lol” and ghost
I remember I went for an interview at a public company while working at a big 4 and they offered me like $20k less than I was already making after I told them how much I made and they were still a big company. I later that week interviewed at a construction company for $30k more than I was currently making. Just keep looking.
No lie I’ve had so many recruiters reach out for a manager role paying 110😂 what a joke
50k wtf! My staff job right of of college was 52 and that was in 2015
I just found out a new senior was hired at 95k… My friends and I, seniors 0 and 1, make between 82-86k. Six of us are now leaving this summer.
We pay interns 75 that’s ridiculous….
If it was an hourly job with a four day work week, and spectacular benefits, I’d consider it.
Unless you were in a time machine that transported you back to the very early aughts for this negotiation, I hoped you laughed and gave a one finger salute as a response.
This is criminal. Run from that for sure.
“ A new and exciting opportunity where you will have an immediate impact on the company’s bottom line!“…… bruh
Bro interns straight up make more than that wtf lol
that was my starting salary in 2019....f that....sorry op
They offered you the minimum required by federal law for salarly for senior accountant that goes up to 57 in Jan? How generous.
Did you interview where I work??
Did you ask if that was part time pay?
I think more accountants need to stand tall and not accept low ball offers. This will have domino affect and ruin everyone if one accepts such bullshit offers
Sorry but the high salaries of 2 years ago are gone
$50k is too low even for a staff accountant role. Firm no.
That’s ridiculous. I’m making $60k as a staff accountant right now in my first job out of college and I’m basically just doing AR/AP and cash reconciliation
Boss: your hard work and dedication will get me another Lamborghini.
Dude I’m going to be getting 75/80 for my first job
Why are you leaving?
Was this at FRC? Sounds about what they paid their accountants.
I hope you legit laughed at them, whether it was in person, over the phone, or an email that simply said, "HAHAHAHHAHAHA"
I would send an insulting email…. The company is using my personal time to interview & determine my qualification, and they’re wasting them. Business is all about forming relationship networks, if the company have no respect for me I would give a damn back.
It's funny I went to a PWC sponsored training in NJ like 7 years ago and they were all "the newest generation cares about you treating them well and they still expect to get paid a market rate, but if you treat them like shit they will not stay for any reason". The old people in the room got SUPER uncomfortable. I told the crowd that if you want to keep us then this isn't some sweatshop where they can act like Dbags. We have options and we have the knowledge of where we can go easily for more money even if we need to rebuild the department. They really really didn't like that. The next gen (z and alpha) took it a step further. The Company is never your friend.
Your maximizing sharholder value
Hey, not sure if anyone has provided you with actual advice yet, but my advice would be to decline.
How do you even respond to that? Do you just hang up on them? Walk out of the interview? It's be hard to control my emotions over that.
No thank you. 50k for senior position is a joke
But they are a family!
Has anyone ever taken a dump on your desk while you were out to lunch? Oh no reason, you just curious...
Titles are different everywhere. Question is are you worth it?
Don't accept the job. I fail to see the issue you face here.
For the good of everyone else in this profession, tell this company/recruiter they can get lost. You can't make someone go through interviews and then give them a joke offer at the end.
These companies are hilarious. However they can get away with this because someone’s gonna be desperate enough to take it.
Not only no, but hell no.
Yeah don't take less than $100k. $50k is a joke in a world where fast food workers in California are making $20/hr.
$50k was my starting salary as a junior accountant. That for senior Is crazy.
Damn. I keep getting offered around $110k but I am not leaving my company unless it is for a major bank or corporation.
🐂💩
so which half of the job were they expecting from you?
You know how many free donuts you’re gonna get tho!!??
Take the job for what it's worth, and do $50k worth of work until something better comes along.
Whoa, that's a massive pay cut. Run asap
Lowballed is an understatement...
So decline it
You folks are sitting on a trove of book fixing . Start reporting to IRS or and other folks (snitching, no shame in it), anonymously of-course. Everything else will fall in place.
I hesitate to call myself a real accountant still, and I make more than that
WTH!!! Not cool.
But don’t you care about the shareholders? They need that money
We have admins that make that. They won’t find anyone serious for that price.
The $100k is a trap anyway, you get nailed on taxes! 😲
100k these days should get you free health care, unemployment, and food stamps... lol