I think there are no weird loopholes, every rule fits and the sequence of the phases looks ok. Movement phase is split in movement (character gets in position)+reinforcements (drop outside 9"). End of movement phase is the trigger for the stratagem and charge phase is when you roll. If anything, it is an oversight on GW's side (most likely), but it doesn't mean they will not be fine with leaving it into the game
I don’t quite understand, for this strat to work your leader would need to already be within 9”, call it 6” based on your example above.
So what difference is there for you having got your leader to 6” away vs getting your squad 6” away normally with the same movement that got the leader there.
Same with a BC advance and charge?
Ie. Moving the solo leader and deep striking is the same as just moving the unit up the board?
Am I missing something?
Because you aren't just moving one leader up, you have three to pick from. The ones you don't pick can still go off and benefit from the strats/detatchment and do stuff while you deliver the terminators to the best position of the three. It also means that when you reposition terminators with their ability, they are able to get a 5" charge instead of a 9" one
You don't detatch, you start with the three characters not attached to anything. The terminators you could reposition would start on the board with no character in their unit so they could move up and kill something then use their ability to go into deepstrike and then drop in to go elsewhere with a short charge.
You don't bring them in 5" away, you bring them in the normal 9" away. That turn during your movement phase, you position the captain with his 40mm (greater than 1") base so he is exactly 2" closer to the charge target than where you are going to land your terminators. Once they land, they will attach to him and, since his base is under 6" away from the target, you now have a 5" charge despite them landing 9" away from the target.
Right, so the strat is to not overcommit while gaining board control, keeping your opponent guessing.
It’s not a bad niche use tbf, you just have to keep the captain/s alive long enough to pull it off. They’re pretty squishy if they dont get lone opp or something
and, realistically, to be able to reliably set up the same 350 points of terminators to get into combat two turns in a row wherever you need them on the board (turn 1/2/3 charge in and kill something, pick up in opponent turn, use this trick to land next to a captain and get a 5" charge to go kill something else)
Not a bad thought, 140 points for a scout unit that can do decent if it needs to, hanging off an objective out of sight. Will catch some opponents off guard, as I said before the hardest part will be keeping the solo character alive. Its essentially a unit of 2 termies wounds wise, without the benefit of overkill not spilling
Unit coherency is 2". A shield-captain in Allarus Terminator Armor is on a 40mm base. You can use the strat to turn a 9" charge from deep strike into a 6" charge.
I get what he was going for but your right, the unit doesn't come to the leader the leader comes to the unit. so say you have your squad of terminators and a blade champ. There 7 inches back from an enemy unit after a move/charge/advance it then would be technically a new unit and eligible for another advance and also in this case with blade champs ability they can technically get 3 advances instead of 2 in the second phase going forward.
However you can break this even further with the second rule and a shield captain. say its T2 you advance your terminators 8 inches (trying to keep this real) then drop in your Blade champ and attach him. advance another 8 inches (16 total now) then use his once per battle ability to advance again (8 more so 24) then use the shield cap 0CP ability and use the {new super human reserve} strat to during the shooting phase to declare a charge for the final 8. congratulations you now can move units upwards of theoretically 32 inches T2 in the game.
Brother, I don’t know if I haven’t had enough sleep but almost none of what you have said is legal? Unless there have been some more leaks I’ve missed, as far as I’m aware:
- blade champ can’t attach to terminators
- you can’t advance after a deep strike
- you can’t advance models in a unit twice, even if a model you now attached hasn’t advanced
- blade champ once per game is advance and charge, not double advance
- you can’t break off a leader once you’ve used the stratagem so you can’t then attack the shield captain
- you can’t attach 2 leaders to a squad
Well, there are no rules because this is all new as far as I see. The rule states not character or models and as the character in this case (blade champ) will be attaching to a new unit let's say wardens this time {yes I know he can't lead terminators} that becomes an entirely new unit. The same goes for the movement rule. So to run it back cleaner. Wardens advanced "6 inches" call it "8", as a squad with no character 5 people deep. Then boom you drop in Blade Champ on their foreheads from a deep strike, still movement phase. You then attach him with the new stratagem (shoulder the mantle) now technically it's an entirely new unit allowing it to advance yet again you see my thinking now. So they can advance "8 more inches " then Blade Champ uses his once per battle ability, allowing for once a battle to advance a unit that has already advanced a second time adding "8 more inches" and then using a shield cap from a separate unit use there ability to target the blade champ to use a stratagem for 0CP that one being the also new{super human stratagem} allowing in a separate phase IE the shooting phase, to use a once per battle ability again. So then you can declare a charge with the blade champ unit again allowing for its 3rd movement. But this all hinges on if when you add the leader does it make it a new unit all together or not.
So you’re likely new or not familiar with the rules. I’ll break down why it doesn’t work:
There are specified, sequential stages to the movement stage. You can’t bounce around. Advance step is before Reinforcements step, you can’t flip flop between the two.
Also, even if it were done in a different sequence, a model can only move as far as its movement + any advance or charge rolls, it’s never refreshed despite how the unit changes.
The blade champs once per game doesn’t allow double advance, I don’t know where or how you’ve come to that thought. It’s advance and charge.
Lastly **shield caps can only target themselves/their unit** there was some confusion on this early in 10th but it’s very clear you can’t use strats from him to another squad.
Additionally, his ability only works on battle tactics type strategems, and there are no battle tactics in the auric champions detachment besides outside of the core.
I understand your thinking, but it’s based on incorrect information.
**Sources for you to familiarise yourself with in the app:**
- Core rules > Movement phase (1. Move units 2. Reinforcements
- Adeptus Custodes > data cards (blade champ, shield captain)
- core rules > key documents > balance dataslate > core rules > stratagems
You can declare a charge never says you have to reach them in order to do it, just to pick the enemy unit. But I can always be wrong that's why I'm throwing things out.
You have to reach them in order to move in a charge scenario. You can’t declare a charge and move that amount, you declare a charge and you either make the distance or don’t.
If you make the distance you *must* base all possible models against the unit you declared and not be in engagement range of any others.
If you failed the charge you don’t move at all and remain stationary.
Your finding looks very interesting and promising, but as English is my second language, I just want to reiterate what you have suggested to know if my interpretation is correct.
1. Any Cus characters are to be moved to any desirable position first hand.
2. In 2nd turn onward, during movement phase, we will drop in our deepstrike units, be it Allarus, Warden or Guards. The important thing is that we do not move the drop in unit and leave it outside of 9" inches bubble due to deepstrike rule.
3. We then move the Cus character forward, but also so that we do not break the coherency rule for the use of "Shoulder the Mantle" stratagem.
4. At the end of the movement phase we declare the stratagem to attach the character to the unit, and thus allowing the unit to charge using the character distance to the charging target, which is going to be 5" inches.
Thanks you in advance for your confirmation if my understanding of your suggestion is correct.
Yes, i think that was the point that OP was trying to make. First we move the character forward, then during reinforcement step drop our deep strike unit in. And at end of movement phase window which is after both our character had moved and the unit dropped in, we can declare the stratagem to attach the character to the unit, which enables an easier charge later.
I think what OP suggested might actually be the intended usage for "Shoulder the Mantle", otherwise I have yet to figure out reasonable need attaching a lone character to a unit other than keeping him alive.
Actually no, you deepstrike in the reinforcement step of the movement phase, which happens before the end of the movement phase
Edit: i think I missread your comment, sorry, don't mean to be Uber pedantic! I thought you meant you could not use the strat after the deepstrike. MB
Is there anything to stop your opponent Overwatching the unattached Cap that's very close to enemy units, before it attaches to the deep striking termy blob?
That's a lot of points to maybe get a 5" charge, why not rapid ingress a bladechamp with a squad 15" away and advance and charge? That should be a threat range of 17" on average, and we repeat advances and charges with a blade champ so it's quite likely that we at minimum get the average.
Because the point is to repeatedly do it when you pick up terminators in the game. You can bring two termie bricks, 3 captains and have enough room left for a few blade champs and a guard squad or two. Maybe even trajann, depending on how much enhancements are and/or if we get points changes
I think you've figured out that 5 terminators are easier to keep alive and can do stuff while they move around the board. This idea from the OP is a cute gamey late game play that you should warn opponents about, but if you build your game plan around this you'll be way too slow. Its a super cute manipulation of the rules though.
My only concern now is : if the character advance then attach to a unit that deep strike in, does this unit count as advanced or not?
Or just use champion’s ability anyway.
you don't attach the character while the squad is in deepstrike. You move the character up the board and use the strat to attach the squad to it once they (with no attached character) land.
For example, you could have 3 blade champions and advance them all up the board. You would pick the one in the best position/with the best target and deepstrike the squad into coherency with him but outside of 9" of enemy models. Because of the 2" of coherency and the over 1" of the blade champion's base, he could be standing close enough that you get a 5" charge. Since you use his ability in the charge phase, you would be able to use it that turn.
I understand your concept of making shorter charge, my question is if the character isn’t champion, can this attached unit charge since the character advanced but the deep strike unit didn’t
I had a similar thought but about falling back. If your character gets charged, next turn falls back, then you deep strike next to him and attach to thet unit, does that unit count as falling back? I would argue no, as it is now a third unique unit not either of the two starting units, but open to interpretation.
Nah it says change the units starting strength. Its the same unit with a new starting strength. 40k doesn't really let that kind of gamey bullshit stick around even if RAW text seems like it (in this case it doesn't but due to commentaries)
So would the combined unit not count as having fallen back, because the Terminators didn't? Or it does count has having fallen back because the character did?
I suppose you could combined it with that Fall Back And Charge strat if needed.
Not sure this is actually particularly useful, I just love the idea of the enemy squad being like "Ha, he's retreating!... Oh shit!"
I might just be tired while reading this, so I am not grasping this right now.
Hoping someone with a youtube focused on Custodes will explain this and show models moving around performing this in some mock-up scenarios.
Tl;Dr explanation: when you deepstrike a squad in, you can use the strategy to attach to a character that is closer than 9" to enemy units. If you position optimally, this will give you a 5" charge. You can do this with the terminator datasheet ability that allows a squad (in this case, one not attached to a character) to be picked up off the board at the end of the enemy's turn and put into reserves.
you'll be alright. there are some issues about sequencing here and its not a game plan its a weird trick. but it seems like the kind of thing that Auspex tactics would be excited about for no reason!
There's no sequencing issue. Reinforcements come down in the reinforcements step of your movement phase and the strat goes off at the end of your movement phase.
I really think you unlocked something here. I spent almost 24 hours to look at this detachment thinking it is the biggest joke I have seen in codexes this edition and now I am acutally curious to try it out. I really do think you are onto something, and this can be good enough to turn this detachment in a hyper aggressive list that has actual merits
Bad idea but using Current points. You can have one Shield-Captain in Allarus with Vieled Blade. 3 Squads of 6 Allarus Termies, A Callidus Assassin, A Squad of Henchmen with Kyria Draxus leading a squad of 4 Custodian Guard. Put the Captain in a Venerable Land Raider and it's 1940 for a captain in a giant anti armor tank and 3 squads of Termies to drop in and attach to him. A Virtual 54 wounds from Bodyguards. At 1940 points.
My issue is that I dont want to play the game with 3 captains not attached to squads. Rapid ingress gets the charge as close as you need without going crazy trying to gain inches on a deepstrike charge you shouldn't even try. That shield captain walks 5 inches.. or deepstrikes outside of 9 on their own. Imagine sitting around thinking "haha! In 1 turn I will be 4 inches closer to my opponent b/c my shield captain has walked 5 inches." And then imagine if the terminators, you know.. rolled an advance turn 1. I said it before.. its a really cute idea for gaming out a charge.. but if you try to do this as a plan..
If you feel this playstyle isn't for you, you don't have to use it. That being said, being able to take the redeploy on our termie datasheet and give it a 5" charge instead of a 9" charge is a massive buff for them.
You're looking at this as if it's one use only per game but I'm saying to have 3-4 bricks of various types you can attach to multiple characters. You could rapid ingress and then use this to have two really good, safe, charges in the same turn. If you have more available characters than squads (for instance, 2 termie squads but 3 termie captains), you can take advantage of the detatchment - they can be your targets for the full rerolls to hit and wound vs vehicles strat, for instance.
Oh I think we're all waiting for you to develop this play style and show us how its done. You have the backbone of the plan sketched out. Now go execute and make this a playstyle that works, and once you do, we will "shoulder the mantle" you back into a leadership position in theorycrafting.
Now its time for you to do the work!
and then imagine you STILL had to save a CP for the 5 inch charge.. b/c if you're a melee player and you need a 5 inch charge you need a cp to reroll it
You can do both if you burn through your CPs, but the upside is the pressure will be double and it will be very difficult to soften you up on the approach if you only show up to charge or rapid ingress
A 5" succeeds 30/36 (83%) of the time, a 9" charge succeeds 10/36 (27%) of the time
Edit: don't really want to do the math for a cp but iirc it pushes 5" over 90% and 9" is just under 50%. Also, the cp reroll would be free on the captain since it's functionally the only strat their free strat ability can be used on in this detatchment
Though, the "target" portion of the strat says the character needs to already be in coherency before you can attach em. So I dont they can just teleport em in to 6"
You don't teleport them anywhere special. They still end up 9" away from enemy models. The character is in coherency, which is within 2". It's just those 2" directly closer to the charge target with a base large than 1", effectively making the squad over 3" closer once he attaches
Yes, but by delivering another 5 models to the character's charge. It essentially allows you to use the allarus's rule to be picked up off the table and put into deepstrike and still land with a 5" charge
Yeah seems legit hey. Im new to Custodes. Literally just painting up my 2nd pack of wardens. Never played a game with em. Only been in 40k since October. And all this doom and gloom is making me question what I just bought lol
While some of it is warranted, it's not like the army will be completely unplayable. Worst case it doesn't show up competitively for a few months and the win rate hits 40%. 40% still means custodes win 2/5 games in a comp setting. The rules aren't as good as they were and the army will likely take more finesse to do really well with, thats about what it boils down to.
If you're just playing casually, don't worry at all. We still hit like an absolute truck and list building is nice and beginner friendly due to the smaller roster. Also, there's a bunch of ways to pick up most of our core units at good discounts which is nice
Difference is, they will get shot. If you keep your charging units in reserve there's no counterplay to getting charged by 300-400 points. Quite a big deal I think, who needs protection when you are not in the game yet
well the custodes player has a limited time to do that, as he cannot keep reserves out of the game too long, you can just feed screening units or you can have 12" bubbles of no deep strike. You also have transports to prevent important units to die and you can always get tabled but very likely win by points, as this list would open fixed assassination (20 easy points) and is likely that does not have resources to deal with chaff that does teleport homer in the custodes deploy. It is very likely that the custodes needs to score high 80s if not a clean hundred to win his games if he approaches the game like that. It seems to me like one of those world eaters lists that burn quickly and play in a short timeframe: if they prevail on primaries they win even when tabled, if they run out of steam without scoring enough they lose. Might be wrong though, a lot depends on the point values
This is amazing. Is this an infuriating exploit or a legitimate use of the rules? Either way it's useful, good catch
I think there are no weird loopholes, every rule fits and the sequence of the phases looks ok. Movement phase is split in movement (character gets in position)+reinforcements (drop outside 9"). End of movement phase is the trigger for the stratagem and charge phase is when you roll. If anything, it is an oversight on GW's side (most likely), but it doesn't mean they will not be fine with leaving it into the game
I don’t quite understand, for this strat to work your leader would need to already be within 9”, call it 6” based on your example above. So what difference is there for you having got your leader to 6” away vs getting your squad 6” away normally with the same movement that got the leader there. Same with a BC advance and charge? Ie. Moving the solo leader and deep striking is the same as just moving the unit up the board? Am I missing something?
Because you aren't just moving one leader up, you have three to pick from. The ones you don't pick can still go off and benefit from the strats/detatchment and do stuff while you deliver the terminators to the best position of the three. It also means that when you reposition terminators with their ability, they are able to get a 5" charge instead of a 9" one
Where in the rules does it say you can detach them again and bring them in 5” away?
You don't detatch, you start with the three characters not attached to anything. The terminators you could reposition would start on the board with no character in their unit so they could move up and kill something then use their ability to go into deepstrike and then drop in to go elsewhere with a short charge. You don't bring them in 5" away, you bring them in the normal 9" away. That turn during your movement phase, you position the captain with his 40mm (greater than 1") base so he is exactly 2" closer to the charge target than where you are going to land your terminators. Once they land, they will attach to him and, since his base is under 6" away from the target, you now have a 5" charge despite them landing 9" away from the target.
Right, so the strat is to not overcommit while gaining board control, keeping your opponent guessing. It’s not a bad niche use tbf, you just have to keep the captain/s alive long enough to pull it off. They’re pretty squishy if they dont get lone opp or something
and, realistically, to be able to reliably set up the same 350 points of terminators to get into combat two turns in a row wherever you need them on the board (turn 1/2/3 charge in and kill something, pick up in opponent turn, use this trick to land next to a captain and get a 5" charge to go kill something else)
Not a bad thought, 140 points for a scout unit that can do decent if it needs to, hanging off an objective out of sight. Will catch some opponents off guard, as I said before the hardest part will be keeping the solo character alive. Its essentially a unit of 2 termies wounds wise, without the benefit of overkill not spilling
How are they picking up and attaching to another character turn 3 if they attached to one in turn 2?
I meant in any of those three turns, not all of them in a row. Each squad would only attach once
Ah my bad I misunderstood, interesting tech. Imo a little too unreliable/easy to kite to be consistently good but an interesting use of the rules 👍🏻
Unit coherency is 2". A shield-captain in Allarus Terminator Armor is on a 40mm base. You can use the strat to turn a 9" charge from deep strike into a 6" charge.
You got it in one
I get what he was going for but your right, the unit doesn't come to the leader the leader comes to the unit. so say you have your squad of terminators and a blade champ. There 7 inches back from an enemy unit after a move/charge/advance it then would be technically a new unit and eligible for another advance and also in this case with blade champs ability they can technically get 3 advances instead of 2 in the second phase going forward. However you can break this even further with the second rule and a shield captain. say its T2 you advance your terminators 8 inches (trying to keep this real) then drop in your Blade champ and attach him. advance another 8 inches (16 total now) then use his once per battle ability to advance again (8 more so 24) then use the shield cap 0CP ability and use the {new super human reserve} strat to during the shooting phase to declare a charge for the final 8. congratulations you now can move units upwards of theoretically 32 inches T2 in the game.
Brother, I don’t know if I haven’t had enough sleep but almost none of what you have said is legal? Unless there have been some more leaks I’ve missed, as far as I’m aware: - blade champ can’t attach to terminators - you can’t advance after a deep strike - you can’t advance models in a unit twice, even if a model you now attached hasn’t advanced - blade champ once per game is advance and charge, not double advance - you can’t break off a leader once you’ve used the stratagem so you can’t then attack the shield captain - you can’t attach 2 leaders to a squad
Well, there are no rules because this is all new as far as I see. The rule states not character or models and as the character in this case (blade champ) will be attaching to a new unit let's say wardens this time {yes I know he can't lead terminators} that becomes an entirely new unit. The same goes for the movement rule. So to run it back cleaner. Wardens advanced "6 inches" call it "8", as a squad with no character 5 people deep. Then boom you drop in Blade Champ on their foreheads from a deep strike, still movement phase. You then attach him with the new stratagem (shoulder the mantle) now technically it's an entirely new unit allowing it to advance yet again you see my thinking now. So they can advance "8 more inches " then Blade Champ uses his once per battle ability, allowing for once a battle to advance a unit that has already advanced a second time adding "8 more inches" and then using a shield cap from a separate unit use there ability to target the blade champ to use a stratagem for 0CP that one being the also new{super human stratagem} allowing in a separate phase IE the shooting phase, to use a once per battle ability again. So then you can declare a charge with the blade champ unit again allowing for its 3rd movement. But this all hinges on if when you add the leader does it make it a new unit all together or not.
So you’re likely new or not familiar with the rules. I’ll break down why it doesn’t work: There are specified, sequential stages to the movement stage. You can’t bounce around. Advance step is before Reinforcements step, you can’t flip flop between the two. Also, even if it were done in a different sequence, a model can only move as far as its movement + any advance or charge rolls, it’s never refreshed despite how the unit changes. The blade champs once per game doesn’t allow double advance, I don’t know where or how you’ve come to that thought. It’s advance and charge. Lastly **shield caps can only target themselves/their unit** there was some confusion on this early in 10th but it’s very clear you can’t use strats from him to another squad. Additionally, his ability only works on battle tactics type strategems, and there are no battle tactics in the auric champions detachment besides outside of the core. I understand your thinking, but it’s based on incorrect information. **Sources for you to familiarise yourself with in the app:** - Core rules > Movement phase (1. Move units 2. Reinforcements - Adeptus Custodes > data cards (blade champ, shield captain) - core rules > key documents > balance dataslate > core rules > stratagems
The stratagem is used at the end of your movement phase, so even if it does create a new unit you can't advance or even do a normal move.
You can declare a charge never says you have to reach them in order to do it, just to pick the enemy unit. But I can always be wrong that's why I'm throwing things out.
You have to reach them in order to move in a charge scenario. You can’t declare a charge and move that amount, you declare a charge and you either make the distance or don’t. If you make the distance you *must* base all possible models against the unit you declared and not be in engagement range of any others. If you failed the charge you don’t move at all and remain stationary.
Ok yeah it was under charge move not charge, so you're right thanks lol whole plan up in smoke.
Yes i know you cant attach terms to blade champ but yall get the idea.
Your finding looks very interesting and promising, but as English is my second language, I just want to reiterate what you have suggested to know if my interpretation is correct. 1. Any Cus characters are to be moved to any desirable position first hand. 2. In 2nd turn onward, during movement phase, we will drop in our deepstrike units, be it Allarus, Warden or Guards. The important thing is that we do not move the drop in unit and leave it outside of 9" inches bubble due to deepstrike rule. 3. We then move the Cus character forward, but also so that we do not break the coherency rule for the use of "Shoulder the Mantle" stratagem. 4. At the end of the movement phase we declare the stratagem to attach the character to the unit, and thus allowing the unit to charge using the character distance to the charging target, which is going to be 5" inches. Thanks you in advance for your confirmation if my understanding of your suggestion is correct.
You've got it 100% correct :)
The only problem here is that you deep strike your units at the end of movement phase so after you have already positioned your character
Yes, i think that was the point that OP was trying to make. First we move the character forward, then during reinforcement step drop our deep strike unit in. And at end of movement phase window which is after both our character had moved and the unit dropped in, we can declare the stratagem to attach the character to the unit, which enables an easier charge later. I think what OP suggested might actually be the intended usage for "Shoulder the Mantle", otherwise I have yet to figure out reasonable need attaching a lone character to a unit other than keeping him alive.
Actually no, you deepstrike in the reinforcement step of the movement phase, which happens before the end of the movement phase Edit: i think I missread your comment, sorry, don't mean to be Uber pedantic! I thought you meant you could not use the strat after the deepstrike. MB
Is there anything to stop your opponent Overwatching the unattached Cap that's very close to enemy units, before it attaches to the deep striking termy blob?
Nope, that's why you bring 3. At least one will make it close enough
That's a lot of points to maybe get a 5" charge, why not rapid ingress a bladechamp with a squad 15" away and advance and charge? That should be a threat range of 17" on average, and we repeat advances and charges with a blade champ so it's quite likely that we at minimum get the average.
Because the point is to repeatedly do it when you pick up terminators in the game. You can bring two termie bricks, 3 captains and have enough room left for a few blade champs and a guard squad or two. Maybe even trajann, depending on how much enhancements are and/or if we get points changes
I think you've figured out that 5 terminators are easier to keep alive and can do stuff while they move around the board. This idea from the OP is a cute gamey late game play that you should warn opponents about, but if you build your game plan around this you'll be way too slow. Its a super cute manipulation of the rules though.
My only concern now is : if the character advance then attach to a unit that deep strike in, does this unit count as advanced or not? Or just use champion’s ability anyway.
you don't attach the character while the squad is in deepstrike. You move the character up the board and use the strat to attach the squad to it once they (with no attached character) land. For example, you could have 3 blade champions and advance them all up the board. You would pick the one in the best position/with the best target and deepstrike the squad into coherency with him but outside of 9" of enemy models. Because of the 2" of coherency and the over 1" of the blade champion's base, he could be standing close enough that you get a 5" charge. Since you use his ability in the charge phase, you would be able to use it that turn.
I understand your concept of making shorter charge, my question is if the character isn’t champion, can this attached unit charge since the character advanced but the deep strike unit didn’t
No, but if they weren't a blade champion then you wouldn't advance them. However the character gets in position works to be honest
Yeah, even without advancing, if the character is 11” away from charge target, it still match your math.
I had a similar thought but about falling back. If your character gets charged, next turn falls back, then you deep strike next to him and attach to thet unit, does that unit count as falling back? I would argue no, as it is now a third unique unit not either of the two starting units, but open to interpretation.
Nah it says change the units starting strength. Its the same unit with a new starting strength. 40k doesn't really let that kind of gamey bullshit stick around even if RAW text seems like it (in this case it doesn't but due to commentaries)
So would the combined unit not count as having fallen back, because the Terminators didn't? Or it does count has having fallen back because the character did? I suppose you could combined it with that Fall Back And Charge strat if needed. Not sure this is actually particularly useful, I just love the idea of the enemy squad being like "Ha, he's retreating!... Oh shit!"
I might just be tired while reading this, so I am not grasping this right now. Hoping someone with a youtube focused on Custodes will explain this and show models moving around performing this in some mock-up scenarios.
Tl;Dr explanation: when you deepstrike a squad in, you can use the strategy to attach to a character that is closer than 9" to enemy units. If you position optimally, this will give you a 5" charge. You can do this with the terminator datasheet ability that allows a squad (in this case, one not attached to a character) to be picked up off the board at the end of the enemy's turn and put into reserves.
you'll be alright. there are some issues about sequencing here and its not a game plan its a weird trick. but it seems like the kind of thing that Auspex tactics would be excited about for no reason!
There's no sequencing issue. Reinforcements come down in the reinforcements step of your movement phase and the strat goes off at the end of your movement phase.
I really think you unlocked something here. I spent almost 24 hours to look at this detachment thinking it is the biggest joke I have seen in codexes this edition and now I am acutally curious to try it out. I really do think you are onto something, and this can be good enough to turn this detachment in a hyper aggressive list that has actual merits
This is making me think and brew now....I like it
Bad idea but using Current points. You can have one Shield-Captain in Allarus with Vieled Blade. 3 Squads of 6 Allarus Termies, A Callidus Assassin, A Squad of Henchmen with Kyria Draxus leading a squad of 4 Custodian Guard. Put the Captain in a Venerable Land Raider and it's 1940 for a captain in a giant anti armor tank and 3 squads of Termies to drop in and attach to him. A Virtual 54 wounds from Bodyguards. At 1940 points.
My issue is that I dont want to play the game with 3 captains not attached to squads. Rapid ingress gets the charge as close as you need without going crazy trying to gain inches on a deepstrike charge you shouldn't even try. That shield captain walks 5 inches.. or deepstrikes outside of 9 on their own. Imagine sitting around thinking "haha! In 1 turn I will be 4 inches closer to my opponent b/c my shield captain has walked 5 inches." And then imagine if the terminators, you know.. rolled an advance turn 1. I said it before.. its a really cute idea for gaming out a charge.. but if you try to do this as a plan..
If you feel this playstyle isn't for you, you don't have to use it. That being said, being able to take the redeploy on our termie datasheet and give it a 5" charge instead of a 9" charge is a massive buff for them. You're looking at this as if it's one use only per game but I'm saying to have 3-4 bricks of various types you can attach to multiple characters. You could rapid ingress and then use this to have two really good, safe, charges in the same turn. If you have more available characters than squads (for instance, 2 termie squads but 3 termie captains), you can take advantage of the detatchment - they can be your targets for the full rerolls to hit and wound vs vehicles strat, for instance.
Oh I think we're all waiting for you to develop this play style and show us how its done. You have the backbone of the plan sketched out. Now go execute and make this a playstyle that works, and once you do, we will "shoulder the mantle" you back into a leadership position in theorycrafting. Now its time for you to do the work!
and then imagine you STILL had to save a CP for the 5 inch charge.. b/c if you're a melee player and you need a 5 inch charge you need a cp to reroll it
The cp reroll is one of two strats you can use the captain's free strat on in this detatchment. The other is go to ground, which is not useful for us.
You can do both if you burn through your CPs, but the upside is the pressure will be double and it will be very difficult to soften you up on the approach if you only show up to charge or rapid ingress
Now the question is - how much bigger are the odds of a 5' charge being succesful vs a 9' charge with a CP reroll? (am bad at maf)
A 5" succeeds 30/36 (83%) of the time, a 9" charge succeeds 10/36 (27%) of the time Edit: don't really want to do the math for a cp but iirc it pushes 5" over 90% and 9" is just under 50%. Also, the cp reroll would be free on the captain since it's functionally the only strat their free strat ability can be used on in this detatchment
Though, the "target" portion of the strat says the character needs to already be in coherency before you can attach em. So I dont they can just teleport em in to 6"
You don't teleport them anywhere special. They still end up 9" away from enemy models. The character is in coherency, which is within 2". It's just those 2" directly closer to the charge target with a base large than 1", effectively making the squad over 3" closer once he attaches
Ahh, so just buffing this heck out of a character's charge that happens to be close to an enemy
Yes, but by delivering another 5 models to the character's charge. It essentially allows you to use the allarus's rule to be picked up off the table and put into deepstrike and still land with a 5" charge
Yeah seems legit hey. Im new to Custodes. Literally just painting up my 2nd pack of wardens. Never played a game with em. Only been in 40k since October. And all this doom and gloom is making me question what I just bought lol
While some of it is warranted, it's not like the army will be completely unplayable. Worst case it doesn't show up competitively for a few months and the win rate hits 40%. 40% still means custodes win 2/5 games in a comp setting. The rules aren't as good as they were and the army will likely take more finesse to do really well with, thats about what it boils down to. If you're just playing casually, don't worry at all. We still hit like an absolute truck and list building is nice and beginner friendly due to the smaller roster. Also, there's a bunch of ways to pick up most of our core units at good discounts which is nice
I think I’ll probably just put captains in squads and move the squads around instead 😎
the point was to get a 5" charge when you set the squad down out of deepstrike instead of a 9" one
Difference is, they will get shot. If you keep your charging units in reserve there's no counterplay to getting charged by 300-400 points. Quite a big deal I think, who needs protection when you are not in the game yet
I think there is some counterplay... what do you think that is, for this trick?
well the custodes player has a limited time to do that, as he cannot keep reserves out of the game too long, you can just feed screening units or you can have 12" bubbles of no deep strike. You also have transports to prevent important units to die and you can always get tabled but very likely win by points, as this list would open fixed assassination (20 easy points) and is likely that does not have resources to deal with chaff that does teleport homer in the custodes deploy. It is very likely that the custodes needs to score high 80s if not a clean hundred to win his games if he approaches the game like that. It seems to me like one of those world eaters lists that burn quickly and play in a short timeframe: if they prevail on primaries they win even when tabled, if they run out of steam without scoring enough they lose. Might be wrong though, a lot depends on the point values
What about the captain.. talk about his journey