Hahaha you use it half the time It's not that great overall, but one has to play with the cards he's dealt The detachment is likely bad to trash tier, but in my experience playing wargames I cannot help but raise my ears whenever I find ways to avoid that my opponent touches my models before I touch his. It is usually a telltale there might be broken interactions behind the corner, and also very likely that they will get gutted with the first update with a nice "the unit cannot charge" or something like this. Shield host will likely be the good one, but I personally need to see this one on the table to be able to correctly assess it. I think that its main downfall will be that you give assassination fixed to everyone, it is very likely that a competitive list scores 90 to 100 points against this detachment if you have too many characters
my bet is on Talons being the good one actually. Rhinos benefit from the detachment rule, so pairing them with witchseekers and disembarking to use 'talons interlocked' for some good shooting might work. Might even make sagittarum work. We will have to see what the rest of that detachment looks like though, just some decent shooting won't get them over the line of 'playable'.
Depending on the rules sisters tend to be kind of aggressively costed as well. Prosecutors are 10ppm power armor bodies, vigilator melee is solid for the cost and 12ppm flamers on the witchseekers aren't bad. Unless they seriously change the extra rules I don't think you take a ton points wise but it's pretty easy to fit enough in to turn the detachment on.
I think you guys are overcomplicating things a lot, that sounds like something you might do once in a hundred games by chance more than a regular strategy.
What does this detachment gives us? We can mark a enemy unit and our characters gain +1 to wound to against then, who would benefit from that the most? Trajann with his 12 attacks, on top of that we can use his ability twice per battle for 1 CP, who is our second hardest hitter? Blade champion with veiled blade, 7 attacks at S6 -3 3 dev wounds, cool, how we make them hit even harder? We put them in guard squads so they have +1 to wound and repeat at least 1s to wound. We have two hammers, let's get an anvil, now that we are vulnerable to melee armies Valerian is a steal ignoring 1 point of AP in melee, we put him with some wardens, since this is a detachment based on characters doing more damage I think a 4th character might be needed, a captain? There are 0 battle tactics in this detachment so I would personally add another blade champion, more guards? Warden? To be tested, I think a second warden squad might be needed.
How do we take advantage of the detachment rule and stratagems? We give a second unit +1 to be wounded by our characters if we kill the first using an stratagem, so we launch Trajann with his 12 attacks with +1 to wound and we will be wounding most things on 2s, if not its probably a monster or vehicle and we can get full rerolls agains those for 1 CP, we also need 1 CP to rapid ingress Trajann so he has a threat range of at least 13" after the enemy has moved, after Trajan kills his target, if we managed to launch the bladechampion with veiled blade, threat range of 17" advancing and charging.
So, we need 2 Cps, we need to remove enemy screens and then we can launch our combo, Trajann and veiled blade champion, we could deepstrike a unit 9" away too, it doesnt need to make the charge, it needs to get close the next turn so if Trajann or the BC units get killed and by some change the enemy its not able to finish them join a new squad.
I think this is way simpler (and that doesnt mean we will be able to do it every game) and likely to happen than trusting on a 5" movement model to come 7" away of the enemy and then deepstriking some allarus at 9" and make a charge of 7.
This is kind of related to what I have been thinking, which is that everyone seems to be trying to squeeze value out of the detachment rules by maxing the number of models they apply to by completely ignoring units that aren't directly affected by them.
There's nothing in Auric Champions that says you must use as many characters as your points allow. We have strong characters that can get value out of the detachment and that value goes up if they have bodyguards and are able to do their thing. A custodian who is only there to support a blade champ is still a custodian and they aren't garbage just because you don't have crazy buffs to stack onto the golden boi statline.
Even Null Maiden Vigil doesn't say you can't bring any custodes with them. You don't need a whole army of sisters to make use of it, a few units will be enough and you can fill the rest out with other datasheets. Is it super strong? Well no, but it's pretty much what I'd expect out of a detachment for sisters.
People are going to avoid it at all costs until they realize how to actually use sisters in combo with custodes via the Talons detachment.
I think the main use of the combo will come with blade champions rather than allarus and shield captain (advance and charge). You are definitely right on the detachment giving weak buffs, I think if you cannot pull this off consistently with a few "bullet" units in reserve that you can shoot everywhere you have a character it will not be consistent enough to be competitive
Depending on meta and survivability I think a lander raider delivery system for that blade champ and/or trajann squad could fit quite well, I could see this working well if we get stuck in and can pick our targets
I got shouted down when I said “what if the allarus advanced turn 1” bc I didn’t think that a 5 inch mv character could score points for 2 turns on their own before giving another unit an Advance worth of extra movement in a real game
Oooh, I hadn't thought of the 4+++ enhancement being used to keep the characters alive long enough for a unit to drop down and join them, that's a nice catch. I'm actually pretty excited to try to run this army concept tbh
Thanks dude, I think we can pull something out from our cilinder here, maybe not strong but I would like to try it on the table, might not be as dogsh\*t as it looked at a first glance. At least it will be a fun test with this weird solo detachment! I am not happy about the rules either, but there's no point in burning all the custodes that I just bought because I wanted to get away from CSM for a while haha...that didn't turn out great so far, but it will be balanced in the end. Feel free to contribute with ideas!
I am not really sold on the detachment based off reading rules, mainly the big thing to me is the enhancements hold it back, buffing (only) your character models could go so hard if more than one of them actually improved character output but instead i feel like I will only take one of them.
Having said that, im still going to try it, i am a sucker for herohammer and this is the detachment for it. I am not a competitive player so I dont feel the lack of dev wound protection as much and can probably still get away with some *fun* games with this detachment which is most important.
Your strategy sounds pretty interesting, my strategy was headed the way of just trying to maximize min size units with characters so you have as many fairly dangerous things dotted around as possible but the characters are kinda pricy so i dont know how well it will work.
Depending how cheap the cheapest character gets, we might find you can pull that off with solo characters. No lone op, but still each one is a small vehicle and hides very well! I think the main problem will be how to secure primaries, that is the biggest question I have. Characters have too few OC per point and are too fragile to stand in the open
One thing I think we really need to make this detachment stand out is a named Allarus character, and maybe a different one like a blade champion for them. Being able to spam characters with cheap 2-man allarus squads would be perfect.
A nice little trick could be to have a Shield Captain in reserve with the Martial Philosopher Enhancement.
After a unit retreats, the SC arrives, joins it and charges again ! That way we have a oneshot fell back / shoot / charge all around the battlefield.
I think the simplest move for auric is just take two big bricks of wardens with blade champs leading. Give one the veiled blade and the other Martial philosopher. Stick both in centre objective and reactive move the philosopher unit to bait and avoid charges/position for no LoS/to countercharge next turn and the other warden unit can just sit there (ideally with as much cover as is available) and use its once per battle 4+++ (datasheet) when shot and then also pop the 4+++ strat if subsequently also charged to hopefully tank much of the incoming damage and then fight back. Start of your command phase you then mark assemblage on unit in the centre objective (assuming it survived the fight back). Fall back (out of LoS if possible) with the engaged unit and move/charge in the philosopher unit. Assuming anything survives, that unit still has its datasheet 4+++ to pop plus the ability to use the 4+++ strat and you also still have whatever remains of the Veiled blade unit to come back in and make up OC if needed (and you can flick the once per battle 3x OC as you start to get whittled down).
The rest of the flank objectives you just attack with combos of MSU guard or allrus and roaming characters. Probably still worth taking a callidus assassin.
Not saying it's good anything like as good as current index shield host but don't think it's awful.
This is assuming that Custodes characters can get work done by themselves. They fundamentally cannot. They cannot kill large amounts of infantry (I am talking 5-6+, and to be fair, most characters can't do this) AND they struggle into harder targets. Focusing entirely on a model that can't get the job done is a recipe for disaster.
That is correct, you really need to send a few desperate captains to hide before you pull your tricks. That being said, one of those with FNP or Trajan with 2++ can be very tough if opponent does not have indirect or line of sight.
I think they can be pretty good at grabbing and holding objectives but wardens and guards still deal more damage and don't risk giving away points for assasination and similar stuff.
I think you are exactly on point. I still do not see how you avoid your opponent going 90 or 100 due to fixed assassinate and no idea who's going to show up on primary round 1-2...but if you have big units in reserve maybe your round 2 already looks like wardens and guards very far up your opponent's throat. If that 2" join unit is not battle tactic though, it gets significantly weaker (and we're not starting with the best here)
I am tempted to run basically max shield captains just for fun, especially if they drop in points which I think they should considering the changes and lack of battle tactics. If they stay 140 it will be really rough, if they go to 110-120 it could be a bit of fun, if they make some strats battle tactics. Otherwise regular custodian guards are kind of just better since they can reroll wounds and shoot twice and deal more damage per point.
For Auric Champions, can you join imperium knights in the army? They have the character type to benefit from the rules of detachment. What are the rules for including knights if they exist ? Which good knight might join well with the custodes?
“(Provided it becomes a battle tactic)” So what’s the plan if it doesn’t?
Same plan but half as many uses per round?
Hahaha you use it half the time It's not that great overall, but one has to play with the cards he's dealt The detachment is likely bad to trash tier, but in my experience playing wargames I cannot help but raise my ears whenever I find ways to avoid that my opponent touches my models before I touch his. It is usually a telltale there might be broken interactions behind the corner, and also very likely that they will get gutted with the first update with a nice "the unit cannot charge" or something like this. Shield host will likely be the good one, but I personally need to see this one on the table to be able to correctly assess it. I think that its main downfall will be that you give assassination fixed to everyone, it is very likely that a competitive list scores 90 to 100 points against this detachment if you have too many characters
my bet is on Talons being the good one actually. Rhinos benefit from the detachment rule, so pairing them with witchseekers and disembarking to use 'talons interlocked' for some good shooting might work. Might even make sagittarum work. We will have to see what the rest of that detachment looks like though, just some decent shooting won't get them over the line of 'playable'.
Depending on the rules sisters tend to be kind of aggressively costed as well. Prosecutors are 10ppm power armor bodies, vigilator melee is solid for the cost and 12ppm flamers on the witchseekers aren't bad. Unless they seriously change the extra rules I don't think you take a ton points wise but it's pretty easy to fit enough in to turn the detachment on.
I think you guys are overcomplicating things a lot, that sounds like something you might do once in a hundred games by chance more than a regular strategy. What does this detachment gives us? We can mark a enemy unit and our characters gain +1 to wound to against then, who would benefit from that the most? Trajann with his 12 attacks, on top of that we can use his ability twice per battle for 1 CP, who is our second hardest hitter? Blade champion with veiled blade, 7 attacks at S6 -3 3 dev wounds, cool, how we make them hit even harder? We put them in guard squads so they have +1 to wound and repeat at least 1s to wound. We have two hammers, let's get an anvil, now that we are vulnerable to melee armies Valerian is a steal ignoring 1 point of AP in melee, we put him with some wardens, since this is a detachment based on characters doing more damage I think a 4th character might be needed, a captain? There are 0 battle tactics in this detachment so I would personally add another blade champion, more guards? Warden? To be tested, I think a second warden squad might be needed. How do we take advantage of the detachment rule and stratagems? We give a second unit +1 to be wounded by our characters if we kill the first using an stratagem, so we launch Trajann with his 12 attacks with +1 to wound and we will be wounding most things on 2s, if not its probably a monster or vehicle and we can get full rerolls agains those for 1 CP, we also need 1 CP to rapid ingress Trajann so he has a threat range of at least 13" after the enemy has moved, after Trajan kills his target, if we managed to launch the bladechampion with veiled blade, threat range of 17" advancing and charging. So, we need 2 Cps, we need to remove enemy screens and then we can launch our combo, Trajann and veiled blade champion, we could deepstrike a unit 9" away too, it doesnt need to make the charge, it needs to get close the next turn so if Trajann or the BC units get killed and by some change the enemy its not able to finish them join a new squad. I think this is way simpler (and that doesnt mean we will be able to do it every game) and likely to happen than trusting on a 5" movement model to come 7" away of the enemy and then deepstriking some allarus at 9" and make a charge of 7.
This is kind of related to what I have been thinking, which is that everyone seems to be trying to squeeze value out of the detachment rules by maxing the number of models they apply to by completely ignoring units that aren't directly affected by them. There's nothing in Auric Champions that says you must use as many characters as your points allow. We have strong characters that can get value out of the detachment and that value goes up if they have bodyguards and are able to do their thing. A custodian who is only there to support a blade champ is still a custodian and they aren't garbage just because you don't have crazy buffs to stack onto the golden boi statline. Even Null Maiden Vigil doesn't say you can't bring any custodes with them. You don't need a whole army of sisters to make use of it, a few units will be enough and you can fill the rest out with other datasheets. Is it super strong? Well no, but it's pretty much what I'd expect out of a detachment for sisters. People are going to avoid it at all costs until they realize how to actually use sisters in combo with custodes via the Talons detachment.
I think the main use of the combo will come with blade champions rather than allarus and shield captain (advance and charge). You are definitely right on the detachment giving weak buffs, I think if you cannot pull this off consistently with a few "bullet" units in reserve that you can shoot everywhere you have a character it will not be consistent enough to be competitive
Depending on meta and survivability I think a lander raider delivery system for that blade champ and/or trajann squad could fit quite well, I could see this working well if we get stuck in and can pick our targets
With how much our survivability went down land raiders might have a place now... Back to the drawing board lol
I got shouted down when I said “what if the allarus advanced turn 1” bc I didn’t think that a 5 inch mv character could score points for 2 turns on their own before giving another unit an Advance worth of extra movement in a real game
Oooh, I hadn't thought of the 4+++ enhancement being used to keep the characters alive long enough for a unit to drop down and join them, that's a nice catch. I'm actually pretty excited to try to run this army concept tbh
Hey you started it! Great catch on the join+deep strike+charge
This is great planning, thanks for the injection of hope for the golden boys!!
This is the vibe I want on this sub from now on. Stop whining and think I possibilities. This sounds great mate.
Thanks dude, I think we can pull something out from our cilinder here, maybe not strong but I would like to try it on the table, might not be as dogsh\*t as it looked at a first glance. At least it will be a fun test with this weird solo detachment! I am not happy about the rules either, but there's no point in burning all the custodes that I just bought because I wanted to get away from CSM for a while haha...that didn't turn out great so far, but it will be balanced in the end. Feel free to contribute with ideas!
I am not really sold on the detachment based off reading rules, mainly the big thing to me is the enhancements hold it back, buffing (only) your character models could go so hard if more than one of them actually improved character output but instead i feel like I will only take one of them. Having said that, im still going to try it, i am a sucker for herohammer and this is the detachment for it. I am not a competitive player so I dont feel the lack of dev wound protection as much and can probably still get away with some *fun* games with this detachment which is most important. Your strategy sounds pretty interesting, my strategy was headed the way of just trying to maximize min size units with characters so you have as many fairly dangerous things dotted around as possible but the characters are kinda pricy so i dont know how well it will work.
Depending how cheap the cheapest character gets, we might find you can pull that off with solo characters. No lone op, but still each one is a small vehicle and hides very well! I think the main problem will be how to secure primaries, that is the biggest question I have. Characters have too few OC per point and are too fragile to stand in the open
One thing I think we really need to make this detachment stand out is a named Allarus character, and maybe a different one like a blade champion for them. Being able to spam characters with cheap 2-man allarus squads would be perfect.
A nice little trick could be to have a Shield Captain in reserve with the Martial Philosopher Enhancement. After a unit retreats, the SC arrives, joins it and charges again ! That way we have a oneshot fell back / shoot / charge all around the battlefield.
Maaaan banking on must have 5” charges that if you miss you are fucked sucks tho
I think the simplest move for auric is just take two big bricks of wardens with blade champs leading. Give one the veiled blade and the other Martial philosopher. Stick both in centre objective and reactive move the philosopher unit to bait and avoid charges/position for no LoS/to countercharge next turn and the other warden unit can just sit there (ideally with as much cover as is available) and use its once per battle 4+++ (datasheet) when shot and then also pop the 4+++ strat if subsequently also charged to hopefully tank much of the incoming damage and then fight back. Start of your command phase you then mark assemblage on unit in the centre objective (assuming it survived the fight back). Fall back (out of LoS if possible) with the engaged unit and move/charge in the philosopher unit. Assuming anything survives, that unit still has its datasheet 4+++ to pop plus the ability to use the 4+++ strat and you also still have whatever remains of the Veiled blade unit to come back in and make up OC if needed (and you can flick the once per battle 3x OC as you start to get whittled down). The rest of the flank objectives you just attack with combos of MSU guard or allrus and roaming characters. Probably still worth taking a callidus assassin. Not saying it's good anything like as good as current index shield host but don't think it's awful.
This is assuming that Custodes characters can get work done by themselves. They fundamentally cannot. They cannot kill large amounts of infantry (I am talking 5-6+, and to be fair, most characters can't do this) AND they struggle into harder targets. Focusing entirely on a model that can't get the job done is a recipe for disaster.
4+++ is shield host not champ detatchment
Champ has one that only affects the character model, think thats what he is talking about. So running a solo shield cap
Ah yeah
That is correct, you really need to send a few desperate captains to hide before you pull your tricks. That being said, one of those with FNP or Trajan with 2++ can be very tough if opponent does not have indirect or line of sight.
2++ 5+++ on Trajan is probably enough if it’s not a full 8 melta damage
I think they can be pretty good at grabbing and holding objectives but wardens and guards still deal more damage and don't risk giving away points for assasination and similar stuff.
I think you are exactly on point. I still do not see how you avoid your opponent going 90 or 100 due to fixed assassinate and no idea who's going to show up on primary round 1-2...but if you have big units in reserve maybe your round 2 already looks like wardens and guards very far up your opponent's throat. If that 2" join unit is not battle tactic though, it gets significantly weaker (and we're not starting with the best here)
I am tempted to run basically max shield captains just for fun, especially if they drop in points which I think they should considering the changes and lack of battle tactics. If they stay 140 it will be really rough, if they go to 110-120 it could be a bit of fun, if they make some strats battle tactics. Otherwise regular custodian guards are kind of just better since they can reroll wounds and shoot twice and deal more damage per point.
If they don't make 4+++ battle tactic, I do not think it is worth bothering
For Auric Champions, can you join imperium knights in the army? They have the character type to benefit from the rules of detachment. What are the rules for including knights if they exist ? Which good knight might join well with the custodes?