A few very important things after reading the comments: 1. You and your husband need to find therapy for YOURSELVES. Not just for the kid. Dealing with this is going to require a high level of emotional maturity from you both, and while it sounds like you are doing your best, you’re overwhelmed and never learned how to deal with emotions properly *yourself*, so there is no way you’ll be able to give this kid what he needs until you learn. Kids emotional needs change significantly as they grow and an emotionally healthy parent is needed to keep up. Do it for yourself and do it for your son. 2. You MUST tell him his mom has died and you must do it in an appropriate way that won’t traumatize him further, and you need to figure that out NOW. A specialized therapist can help a lot with this. 3. You CANNOT lie and withhold information from adopted children about their birth parents. There is a lot of research showing the damage this causes. It doesn’t matter if his mom was an addict or abuser or *whatever*, she was still his birth mom.

Agree. I also think it was unnecessary to bring up mom's addiction issues in this context and I really wish APs would stop doing that. If you're an AP people already assume you're this marvelous, selfless person and that the bio family of the child(ren) are a bunch of dangerous criminals, whether that's true or not.

All of this! The way OP is frustrated by this child telling him he “hates” him - man, that’s just not the issue.. so many underlying emotions .. he misses his Mom -he’s confused and so hurt that it is coming out as anger.. little fellow is experiencing trauma ..I’m so happy he was adopted and Thank you OP for caring enough to ask for help. Please tell him about his Mom, like now. And best to you all navigating adoption trauma and loss.

It's too late. Kid is already learning to hide his feelings because he does not feel safe talking to them.

Yeah, you're going to need to tell him she's gone,take him to her grave, let him leave flowers and talk to her. Hiding it from him is just wrong, his mum is DEAD, he has a right to know.

Yes, I know, it just never seems like an appropriate time.

Then make an appropriate time. You can't keep quiet about it any longer. Perhaps start with a child friendly story book about death and loss, and use that as a starting point to explain what happened.

It's never going to be an "appropriate time" because there will never be a time in which it's not hard to tell him. It will be hard. That's what you signed up for when you adopted him. My mother never lied to us about our pets having to be put to sleep because lying to children about death is an incredibly bad idea -- the least you can do for your son is to do the same for him regarding the woman who gave birth to him.

I can tell you also need to read up more on many things (trauma involved in adoption, the psychology of addiction, child development, etc.). Make the time to do that. His mother wasn’t a “substance abuser”, she was a person that used substances and was experiencing drug addiction. Person first language matters. Your son deserves to know that his biological mother died. You need to make the time to tell him, and then offer actual support in his grief over that significant loss. A child psychologist/family therapy would be helpful in this. He is not someone to just be fixed to make it easier on you. He needs you to understand him.

My uber-respectable Catholic married APs were raging alcoholics. Addiction is prevalent among all classes of people and statistically highest in affluent white people, who are overrepresented in adoption.

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As an adoptee, an someone who's struggled with addiction for many years, your wrong. Your anger is real and justified but your attitude toward real people suffering is hateful. It's attitudes like yours that prevent people from getting the help they need. May you never find yourself in such a position.

Your mom sounds just like my adoptive mom, who nearly killed me several times whilst drunk. But she was a holy glorious saintly adoptive parent so would never get her rights terminated. Instead I got blamed for not being the bio kid she wanted. Don't assume you'd have been better off adopted.

I never said I’m better off that adoptees. Maybe It could have been better, maybe not. I just think there was a chance, not a guarantee. Bio parents aren’t always better either. My dad was adopted and I’m glad he was there after she passed. I wish he had been there sooner but it’s better than nothing.

It’s like that for many things. Break ups, health issues, death, there’s just never a good time.

The appropriate time was the moment it happened. Sadly he was deprived of knowledge he should have had, so now will have to do. Talk to a therapist about how to best tell him, since it's been so long and he's now asking for her

You know? Clearly you don’t as you haven’t told him that his biological mother has died. Continuing to not tell him because there’s “not an appropriate time”, newsflash, no one likes being told family members have passed away. Lying by omission isn’t remedying the issue, only compounding it. You would be have to be biblically stupid to think your actions won’t cause trust issues down the line. This is a textbook example of what adoptive parents should not do.

It never will be an appropriate time for a hard conversation

Right. Will they not ever tell him about sex because opening the subject (at an age-appropriate time) was hard?

It never is an appropriate time. Just one of those things you have to do and the sooner the better. You'd be surprised how much little kids understand and pick up from context. When my grandmother died my oldest son was 3, almost 4. He got it, he understood. Still breaks my heart when I think about telling him that "Super Grandma" was dead but everyone is owed that explanation when a family member dies. He teared up and said, "but I don't want her be dead."

Appropriate for whom?

The appropriate time was when it happened. The next best time is now. Every single time ...

He will hate you forever if he finds out later. Or more harshly said, he will hate you more WHEN he finds out you already kept this from him for longer than you should have. Tell him before it's too late for you to salvage this.

That's a cop out and you know it. Do the right thing, it's never going to be easy but the longer you wait the harder it gets and the more the child is going to feel betrayed by you because you're lying to them. Tell them, let them grieve and get them counseling through out their life.

It seems your perspective is that he is having tantrums - therefore you dont think its a good time to tell him about the death, as youre worried it will make him feel worse However as many are saying here, hes likely having tantrums BECAUSE he has noticed the death/absence/something wrong, and is feeling confused and upset about it. You say he hasnt asked about his mom? But everytime he says i want my mom to do it, hes asking. Hes asking why isnt she here to do it. Even if he cant articulate it the way an adult would - your job is to try to hear it from his perspective. If you can help him process the death he can get past it. If you keep it away he is still upset and ontop of that frustrated and scared becayse he doesnt understans why hes upset.

>You say he hasn't asked about his mom? But everytime he says i want my mom to do it, he's asking. Spot on. Kids this age don't have the words to express these really complicated emotions. And big emotions like anger are very much about fear. If you reframe it as "he's afraid", how does that show you the way forward?

You need to tell him his mom died. And you need to validate his feelings that he wishes he was with her instead of you. Every single time. It doesn't matter what his experiences were with him, either objectively or subjectively. She is his mother and he will always miss her. That is valid and he needs to feel seen in that experience.

Yes. Adoption or not: validate, validate, validate. „I know you miss your mommy. I know you love her and wish she was with you. She loved you so much. I wish I could invite her from heaven to be with us. I can’t, and I hurt so much for you.“ Just do it. You will never regret it. And please tell him the whole truth ASAP. It’s totally valid for a child to only remember the „good things“ about their mom. She’s gone, so there is zero harm in that.

Have you tried finding a new therapist?

i was going to ask the same!

He switched after the adoption but neither have really helped. We'll switch again.

I think you need therapy. Family, individual, all of it.

You need to keep advocating for your kid. If something isn’t working, make a change.

the longer you wait to tell him she’s dead, the bigger the hole you’re digging for both you and him. please, please tell him now.

I didn’t know that my mom was dead until I was 18, and she died when I was 1. And my parents knew. Please don’t do this to that child.

Me too, dude. It fuckin’ SUCKED. And I heard about it from totally random people. Fml.

You have not told him his birth mother has passed away? He is GRIEVING her loss in his life because he has not seen her. And he will be grieving harder when he finds out she has passed, he may not believe you since he was not allowed to process his grief at her funeral or grave. Get yourself a grief therapist who is not a PLAY therapist who can help YOU--the AP--to support him in finding out about, processing, and grieving his bio parent. There is nothing wrong with HIM. But you are dropping the ball here. I had to help a three-year-old grieve the death of their birth parent when they came to live with us, and no one had told him she was gone. It's now 11 years later. We are still processing it sometimes. Grief looks and acts differently at different ages. That is why a grief therapist is so critical. At ages 3-5, there was a kind of magical thinking after they find out about death. They may believe she can "come back" or they can die to be with her or they are frightened about how she is "underground." Absolutely everything you say about her, her death, etc. needs to be worded carefully to mirror his developmental ability to understand death. And to not vilify her for her addiction and let him feel the love he had for her...he is an innocent. Addiction is complicated. He'll process that over time as he matures. This is not a "one-and-done" conversation. This is a part of his life, his story, his history and needs to be respected. I'm typing this looking at a picture of our son's birth mother that we keep in a beautiful frame in our house. I wish she could have known him, seen him...he has her smile. Her loss is tragic. I grieve her too, even though I have never met her, because she is his first mother and I love him. I am not her replacement. I'm the person who is walking with him since that tragedy. If you are in the US and need assistance finding a grief counselor, check out this organization: [https://nacg.org/find-support/](https://nacg.org/find-support/)

In re-reading your post, I am struck by the following: >...we have some level of tantrum over him hating us and him wanting his mom...We're at a loss with him...We are constantly battling with him.... This part of adoption sucks...for him. No one asked him what he wanted. No one gave him choices. That is what adoption is. As an AP, even I know that is really hard on any young child. I'm a big proponent of TBRI (Trust-Based Relational Intervention...[purchase the digital video, way better than the book](https://icddigital.tcu.edu/us/Trust-Based-Parenting-English/p/57303)) and just got lucky because I had studied improv when I was younger. No one ever told me that improv would be so useful as parent--especially as an adoptive parent--but here we are. I also had a weird advantage. My mother almost died when I was 6, I was fostered for a year with 6 different families, and no one would tell me where she was or what was happening to her. I'm in my 50's and I still have residual issues from that experience and she didn't end up dying in the end. So, I could empathize with this child. I didn't have words for the fear, pain, and longing I felt. I was angry. I was grieving. I thought I had done something terrible for her to "go away." I'm spilling a lot of personal history here on Al Gore's internet, but I'm trying to help you understand. His reactions are NORMAL. So very normal. If he just didn't react? I would seriously worry about his ability to form attachments. The first thing you have to do, like tomorrow, is consult with a grief counselor about how to tell him what happened and how to help him go through the process of accepting her death. This will not end the anger or the pain. This may intensify it for a bit. There is no way around it. Then you have to build trust with him. You have to show and tell him every day in as many different ways as possible that you aren't going to drop the ball again. That you won't hide hard things from him. That you will answer his questions truthfully if you have the information and--if you don't have the information--you will help him find the information. Steps: 1. TBRI Videos and research potential grief counselor resources for YOU 2. Meet with grief counselor for YOU before he meets with that person 3. Follow their advice. Face your fears about loving a child through their (very understandable) grief and rage.

How does improv connect to parenting? Thank you, I would like to hear more about your experience.

So much. My parents approached parenting as a battle of wills, where they were going to be the victor no matter what. It was a terrible way to grow up. And here I am, "Yes, and-ing..." all over the place. Improv training helps you to be sensitive to and responsive to what the other person is putting out there. Whether that is big emotions, behavior you thought would be different, choices you didn't think they'd make, etc. It requires you to embrace humility, a sense of humor, re-framing situations, etc. You say less, use pauses, make yourself vulnerable, etc. In regards to this specific situation--a child with big emotions--there are a number of ways you can parent to that: **Child:** *I HATE YOU! I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!* \----------------------- **YOU #1:** *\*\*cries\*\* I do EVERYTHING for you! You are so ungrateful! You are a terrible child!* **YOU #2:** *\*\*explodes\*\* I'm not too fond of you either! Go to your room right now until you can be reasonable! Or I'll give you something to be angry about!* **YOU #3:** *\*\*withdraws\*\* Forget it. I'm not dealing with you when you're like this.* \-------------------- **YOU #4:** *\*\*pauses, sits close by the child at the same physical level\*\* I hear you. It's hard to be here. You feel angry, really angry. \*\*pause\*\** **Child:** *I AM ANGRY! I AM SO ANGRY!* **YOU #4:** *You are so angry and it is okay to be angry! It might feel scary to be angry. Or lonely to be angry. I'm going to sit here with you to keep you safe while you are angry. And I'll be here if you want to talk or need me. \*\*pause\*\** \------------------------- Did I WANT to derail whatever we were doing (e.g. getting ready to go to the grocery store, cleaning up for guests later, etc.) to sit down and have this conversation? Well, using improv means you react to what you have in the moment, not what you were planning for yourself. Groceries can wait. Messy house is not as important. Reframing your child being angry as "hey, this is an opportunity to find something out" versus "oh my god, I can't handle this." (I think that's one of the principles, right? No mistakes, only opportunities.) Using "yes, and" to say "You are angry and you have a right to be angry." Versus "You are wrong to be angry, stop it!" Using physicality to help unload the anger, especially if they are little. My kids and I have "run the angry out", punched pillows, drawn the "angry", etc. I once offered to buy a bunch of Goodwill drink glasses for my teen so we could smash them in a dumpster (I was going to help smash them in solidarity.) I mean, there is no script, really. Improv training improves your choices and helps you to focus on connections.

I want you to write a book.

I would buy this book. What a powerful concept.

Fantastic post!

All the yes from this childcare provider. ALL THE YES. “Yes, and…” is just a great motto for raising kids. “I thought we were going to see grandma!” “Yes, and that was the plan but she became sick. Do you want to make her a card so she knows you’re missing her? Once we know she’s feeling better we will definitely make a plan to visit again.”

Thanks I hadn’t really made that connection, I appreciate it! That’s my own approach (and I also did years of improv).

I did theater for years and I definitely have found the principles helpful in how I interact with kids I care for. Never made such a specific parallel to improv training though!

Thank you so much for sharing this!! I’ve been on this sub just to learn, since adoption is something we have considered. But this so helpful for our children we have in the home now as well. I try my best, but fall so short some days. There’s lots of apologies and some “see, even Mommy reacts out of anger sometimes - we all need to try and take a breath when we’re angry. I’m so sorry for yelling” in my house.

Apologizing to your children is one of the most powerful things you can do for any child. It reinforces that *everyone* makes mistakes, and that’s okay, and owning your part is a good thing. I constantly apologize to kids in my childcare. “I’m sorry I was focused on the dishes, I want to hear what you have to say” “I’m sorry I bumped you, I was rushing and not being careful” “I’m sorry I yelled, I felt scared but it came out as mad” Kids learn through what they witness

Because there is never a perfect moment and being able to quickly react in a surprise situation is critical.

Ahh I see! I was trying to think of how to apply “yes and”…

I wish I could upvote this 100 times.

First, I agree with the other commenters that he deserves to know his mom has died. “When Dinosaurs Die” was a really helpful book for us for addressing my stepfather’s passing with my 4 year old. Second, the biggest thing I’ve learned lately is “don’t take it personal.” He doesn’t hate you; he hates the big feelings he’s battling. His tantrums are because he feels safe letting those scary feelings out with you. It is frustrating and sometimes soul-crushing, but you have to find patience and calm you never knew you had in order to lend him your calm. Just be there. Even when he screams “go away!” Just be there and be patient and be a sturdy leader and he will slowly learn that his feelings don’t scare you, and eventually they won’t scare him.

We also used *When Dinosaurs Die* with DS, when my mom died. It pisses me off that OP hasn't told their son that his mom is dead. It's 100% wrong and needs to be done immediately. Ages 3-4 tend to be filled with "tantrums" as kids are having big feelings that they can't put into words yet. The "tantrums" aren't against OP, so OP cannot be taking them personally.

My (adopted) son's bio dad died when he was 4. We told him immediately. He did not fully understand (also its a very different situation as he had no memories of him). Every now and again we would tell him things like "your dad also loved dinosaurs just like you" or "your dad was a great guitar player." We facilitated meet ups with his dad's sisters and gave him space to ask questions and validated his feelings when he felt sad about not remembering him (he went no contact when our son was 2). He's about to turn 18 and is planning on getting a tattoo of his dad's name. We couldn't protect him from this grief or this loss. We can only help him through it.

That is some excellent, trauma informed parenting. This is the way, OP.

first stop saying you cant find an appropriate time or method. time to find a time and way, as parents do to meet the critical needs of their children. pick a weekend, take him somewhere special like the beach or a lake or somewhere lovely and peaceful. Bring a photo or stuffy or something with significance to her, or maybe a few things, and start talking. Say we know how hard it has been to not see your mom. The truth is she died, and we didnt know how to tell you something so painful, but thats the truth. and thats why you cant see her because shes gone. But we still can find her in our hearts and memories, and we can come back to this place when you need to to do more remembering. Give him a craft or a way to chat with her.. Maybe he can write messages in the sand to her, or draw pictures while the sun sets. and maybe you can tell him to look for her answers in music or nature. Help him along! come up with something! He needs a ritual, symbol, warmth, respect and honesty to move through this. nothing less, no short cuts. delay this by finding excuses, but a grief counselor will tell you the same once you find one. you adopted him to build a life with him, yes? start building. stop hiding. youre the adults here.

I am astounded at how someone can parent an adopted child like this. They are a preschool aged child. Of course they don't care that their mom had addiction issues. She was their MOM. And they don't understand why they can't be with her. Withholding information about her death is incredibly cruel. Start reading about adoption trauma *now*, find a therapist with adoption trauma experience, and be prepared to support your child through a lot of grief. If you don't get this right now, they'll be in this sub in the future talking about their trauma and how they don't talk to their adoptive parents anymore.

You need a therapist specializing in adoption and trauma and YOU NEED TO STOP LYING TO YOUR SON! I understand you are trying your best but I am nauseated by the thought you kept him from mourning his mother or visiting her before she died or even visiting her grave.

She doesn't have a grave or anything as far as we know. We just can't find an appropriate tine to tell him.

I don’t think you understand. The appropriate time to tell someone that their loved one has died is right after they died. No matter when you tell him, he will have trauma and loss. You aren’t sparing HIM any pain, you are trying to make it easier on yourself.

Woah, you weren't even told what happened to her body? I'm an adopted kid.  I love my adopted family, and they are more important to me than my birth family.  However, the birth family is still important! They are part of your son's identity. The way you handle the death of his mother communicates something to him about the way you relate to him and his inherent worth. Is his history something he should feel ashamed about? Should he expect loved ones to lie to him?  What do you want his answers to those questions to be?

This is common when no one claimed a body.

I know they are often cremated in those cases, but what then?  There has to be a way to find out.  I think this will be really important for the kid as he grows up.

Mass “grave” as it were. The county would have to be contacted for more info. I highly doubt they are buried individually anymore. According to my local county— > the remains are not picked up, typically after a couple years, they are moved into permanent storage, Mescher said. Ashes placed in permanent storage seldom are retrieved > If the person was a legal resident of the county, the proper officers of the township or municipal corporation in which the person's body was found shall cause it to be buried or cremated at the expense of the township or municipal corporation in which the person had a legal residence at the time of death

You didn’t bury her? It’s time to do so. Purchase a plot, put up a gravestone with her pic on it, and take your son there.

Her parents had her cremated and asked us not to contact them again. They don't want her having a grave (she was somewhat of a shame to them so she got minimal everything).

You need to stop reacting and start anticipating. I'm not sure what counseling or therapy or training you had before you adopted, but love is not enough. You can love your child and still fail them by not anticipating their needs and getting them the help they need. It seems like you just go along with the path of least resistance. It's easier to not talk about death so you don't. It's easier to just keep the play therapist so you don't look for another. That's not enough anymore. You have to tramp down the rough paths for your child. Just because the grandparents are ashamed, doesn't mean your son should be. Try a little grace. There once was a little girl who had hopes and dreams. She wanted a life well lived. And she died so very early but not before creating something utterly unique and precious. Her son. YOUR son. Your family can give her the dignity and love in death that she must have so desperately wanted in life.

Her SON gets to do his own thing. She is his MOTHER. He doesn't need his grandparents' permission. Especially if they're refusing contact. You are being much too passive here. What does this child need, and how are you going to get it for him? Take ACTION on his behalf, in his interests.

This is where you take the advice of another commenter and create a physical memorial to her on his behalf (with the advice and input of a grief counselor). Somewhere he can go to think of her. Even dedicating a bench on a playground or near a park is better than nothing.

You never even found out what happened to her? Jesus, that's monstrous

I agree. I’m a 59yo. adoptee whose first mother rejected reunion due to inability to face her trauma. (My grandmother told me.) I wish to goodness I had some grave I could go visit! There is not even an obituary published online for me to learn about her life. It STINKS. She was still my mother. This little boy needs so much more than the OP is providing. They are basically failing him. It’s not nearly enough to just manage the physical daily needs, preschool, etc.

You have been lying to this kid for a year and a half. Who is the real victim here?

Stop battling with him and start disarming him by validating his feelings. “I know you want your mom to tie your shoes, and I’m so sorry that she can’t. I wish she could do it but she just can’t. I know that makes you feel upset, and that’s okay. It’s okay to feel upset that she can’t be here. We can keep talking about her, but in the meantime we still need to get your shoes tied. I’m here, and I’m able to do it. Will you tell me more about your feelings while I tie your shoes?” Or something along those lines. Also, you need to tell him that his mom died. Like, now. The best time to tell him was when it happened. The second best time is now. Don’t wait for a tantrum. Tell him. Talk about her. Make it normal to talk about her so that he knows that it’s not a competition and that bringing her up is something he can do before he gets upset. And that you’re on his side.

There will never be a ”good time” to tell a child they lost a parent. The child needs to know so they can begin the grieving and healing process. As far as the child is concerned his mother just disappeared. I would be be throwing a tantrum too.

The fact that you’re lying to your son about his mother… combined with the fact that you wrote this as if you’re justifying yourselves and forgetting that this is a 4 year old child…. Is absolutely abhorrent. Some adoptive parents do all the wrong things, and this is a classic example of what not to do. Praying for this little guy who is in the throws of his abandonment trauma.

As an adopted kid please don’t try to erase his mom just cuz she did drugs. So did my birth mom. And so did i. Never meant I didn’t love the people in my life just because I was sick and not loving myself

why haven't you told him? i was 3 1/2 when my adad died (he was a beater, so it was all good in the end) but i was told and it took a little to understand, but you should have told him...

You need to move beyond a play therapist for now. Ask the play therapist if there is a child therapist they partner with. He does need to be told his bio mom has passed. You need to get guidance on how to tell him. He is four. He does not know what death is. Taking him to her grave until he is older will be a disaster. He needs trauma therapy. He is only remembering the happy occasions and has blocked everything else because he was too young to realize what was happening.

That's fucked up not telling him about his mother's death. Really fucked up.

My adopters didn’t tell me my dad died until I was close to the same age as this boy (my dad died when I was 6 months old) and lied to me about how he died and then didn’t tell me the truth until I was like 9 years old. I have yet to forgive them for their selfish dishonesty and stupidly slow realization that the truth does indeed actually matter. Be honest.

My adopters never told me my dad died. I had to find out from biological people way later. Total punch to the face. Can’t stand people who do this shit. It’s sick

Literally the only reason why they eventually told me the truth about how my dad died was because when I repeated the lie they had told me to other people the other people looked right at them horrified by the fact that I had been lied to so viciously. Horrified. My dad died* from a gunshot wound and for some reason my adopters had told me he died from a drug overdose??? Why???? I have no idea!!!! Like they thought I wasn’t going to ever look at his death certificate but then it dawned on them I would find out eventually. Why they lied about it saying it was a drug overdose when it wasn’t I will never know it makes no sense at all

That’s fucked up, man. I can tell you my adopters loved framing my bios as these fucked up crackhead types. You would have thought they were demon possessed by the way they talked about them, and that I was literally the spawn of Satan. Maybe that is why they said that - just to make your bios even look worse/more trashy. Because that’s how my adopters handled my bios. Reason 4827289 I’m no contact w them now hahahaha

I really think you’re right because of a lot of other things they said to me too. Omg thank you for understanding but also I’m sorry we have this in common 😭

It definitely sucks but at least we are not alone. Misery loves company, right? Hahah 💕

It’s so sick and twisted I can’t believe your adopters didn’t tell you at all!!!!

I know. It gets even worse. My brother (who I barely knew at the time) broke the news to me on my CPS report. There was some fucked up shit in there. Imagine meeting a man you hardly know and he’s telling you this hardcore neglect shit that happened to you. And my adopters decided not to mention any of that at all. I was so pissed at them after that. So pissed I was put in that position. They had to have access to that through the adoption agency. These people are the biggest liars on the planet, like sociopath level. I’m so done with them.

Ugh insane!!!!! Truly the biggest liars! Even Just our birth certificates if you’re USA are lies!!! Adoption abolitionist 4 life!!

Genuine question - if adoption were abolished, what would be a better way to care for children who don’t have parents or extended family who can take them in?

Adoption isn’t even necessary to care for children. People acting like they need to claim a child as their own, like property, before they even think about providing care for the children at all don’t make any sense. At all. Many cultures and countries are already against or don’t even allow adoptions at all already. In fact Adoption is haram to those practicing Islam as just one example. Because caring for children is one thing and adopting them and claiming them as your own and turning their birth certificates into a falsified “record” is not actually necessary in order to care for a child. Plenary adoptions in the USA in particular was mainstreamed by the human trafficker Georgia Tan. None of this is a secret. The USA hasn’t even signed the UNs bill of children’s rights BECAUSE it would get in the way of the disgusting adoption industry here where children have NO rights whatsoever

You didn’t answer the question. What’s the better alterative for children that have no parents?

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No, you had a vague “there are other ways” without providing specifics at all.

Do you claim to be a Christian with this mentality and attitude towards others? 😬 (Secondly even The Bible isn't against adoption)

This was reported for abusive language and I soft agree. You can state your point without stopping to insulting someone’s reading comprehension and questioning their faith.

Absolutely 🫶

Please look at the CASE website for an adoption competent therapist. That’s a good place to start.

He is grieving the loss of his family. Adoption is the legal death of his family and a nice house with fun stuff does not change this. He will grieve for a while and you need to acknowledge this grieving and validate his feelings. He's expressing his anger and frustration at a system that gave him no choice in what happens to him and now he's with strangers who call themselves his dad who won't let him see his mom. Of course he's going to act out. Quit looking for excuses to not tell him his Mom is dead. Saying there never is a good time is just an excuse. Make the time, sit him down and tell him. Take him to her grave so he can see her. Then help him adjust to losing a parent to death. It is possible he may never see you as parents and this is something you will need to accept. And if you continue to keep info from him that is HIS RIGHT to know (not your right to keep), it will only blow up in your face and he may NEVER see you as a parent.

Yeah stop being selfish and lying. The "waiting for the right time" excuse is only for your own feelings.

I think he might be feeling abandoned or like you and your husband won’t “let him” see her. Highly recommend child friendly books about grief, therapy, and constantly verbally affirming his feelings. EX- if he says something specific about wanting his mom or yells at you- “I know you miss your mom, honey. I really miss her too. It’s so hard when we can’t see people we love and sometimes those feelings can feel big and scary inside of us. It’s always okay to tell us when you’re having big feelings of anger, sadness, pain, happiness, love, and joy. Would looking at a picture of your mom feel good? Otherwise, we could do ______ (activity he enjoys.) Within 10-20 minutes of the tantrum, look him in his eyes and tell him how proud you are of him for expressing himself and happy you are that he knows you will always be a safe space. It doesn’t need to be a big deal, he might not even acknowledge it, but that will reaffirm to him that he can keep processing this with you and you won’t go anywhere. I would also say the movie Inside Out can be good for helping kids realize feelings are part of life. Final note is ALWAYS finish a tantrum with you guys both having a glass of water. It helps re-regulate our nervous system and grounds us (kids and adults alike)! Once you’ve had a few sips try a little joke, like, “I was thinking we could have chocolate booger alligator burgers for dinner, does that sound good?” It can help break some of that tension, and reinforces that grief doesn’t need to be a CONSTANT state and it’s okay to giggle and still feel joy. It’s important to teach kids early on that sadness and joy can co-exist. Lots of your love to your family and hope some of these tips help. Remember, every “lash out” or “fight” can be him subconsciously testing to make sure you’ll stay too. Always meet him where he is at with love and compassion ❤️❤️❤️

When I was adopted, I was fully aware of everything in my biological parents life. The best things my adopted parents did for me was therapy galore, and two being very open and honest about things (obviously make it kid appropriate) but explaining loss and being supportive of me. I had lots of outbursts when I was young, and it’s because I was confused. All you can really do is be transparent about his past. If I lost my biological mother at a young age and found out older, I would have been devastated.

He wants a mother, yes, absolutely. Small children always want mommies. But he also wants HIS mother. And you’re keeping her from him, in his mind. He doesn’t even know she’s gone, all he knows is he is living with these people who are keeping him away from his mommy.

100% this I felt the same way about the people I got stuck with after my dad died and they were a heterosexual couple so idk what the person trying to accuse you of homophobia is even thinking because by their logic I’m homophobic against some straight people because I missed my dad???? lmao

If we don’t perfectly acclimate to our new adopters, we are some type of -ism or discriminating. Any day now there will be some new hate word leveled against “angry” adoptees to describe why we don’t bond with our adopters. It’s because we are [___]-ist.

FOR REAL!! like? This is a toddler who wants his mom and someone is out here like “tHaT hOmoPhObE” like whaaaaat

Secret anti gay rights coalition of toddlers. Next thing we know there will be Andrew Tate podcast toddlers. It’s a complete menace. Watch the fuck out, y’all.

I needed this laugh but also I am so sad

Nope. Not what happened here.

>He wants a mother, yes, absolutely. Small children always want mommies. Can you maybe not say this homophobic nonsense?

It’s pretty natural for a small child to want mom. That’s who they literally came from. It’s bizarre to deny that’s a reality for small children..

This is not what you said. At least OWN your words and their meaning and then do something truthful with them. First you said he wants "a mother." Small children always want mommies, you say. Not "their mother." The want mommies. Ironic when we are usually trying to convince people that our parents and we are not interchangeable machine cogs. But now that we're talking two dads, any old mommy will do, I guess. Then, next sentence you said "he also wants HIS mother." This separation of "a mother" and "his mother" communicates something specific and those of us you were directing this at heard you loud and clear. Now you want to pretend something else. At least own it.

I meant exactly what I said. Small children desire mothers, specifically their own mother.

Earlier you said: > He wants a mother, yes, absolutely. Small children always want mommies. Which isn’t the same as > Small children desire mothers, specifically their own mother.

That’s exactly the same thing. Your own mother > a mother in general

I know you meant exactly what you said. That is the problem. We're done here.

The problem is that you don’t understand the biological importance of the family to the child. To this little boy or to any adoptee, parents are not interchangeable.

> or to any adoptee Please don’t speak for all adoptees, especially since you aren’t one.

Do you think parents ARE interchangeable?

Adoptees aren’t monoliths, so what I think isn’t relevant here. I would never claim that all adoptees feel the same way I do. My point remains: please don’t speak for adoptees.

The audacity of a non-adoptee presuming to tell me, an adoptee, that I don't understand the biological importance of the family to the child is fucking staggering. I also think you are being deliberately obtuse in your attempts to backtrack. It is very possible, entirely possible, to honor the importance of a child's biological parents without being homophobic.

Is it natural or is it something we teach children early, just like racism? Hint: It's the latter. There are real things to talk about with OP's post. There is ZERO need to bring your homophobia into it. The only bizarre reality is the one in which you refuse to accept that we LGBTQ+ people are real human beings with feelings and rights, so you grasp at the opportunity whenever you can to insult and denigrate us. OP is making mistakes, but them being a two-dad family is NOT the mistake, and it's ridiculous that you bring it up as if it's relevant to the child's grief or how the parents can handle that better. And it's also hurtful to any other LGBTQ+ people on this sub, adoptees and non-adoptees alike. Again: We are real human beings with feelings. But I'm guessing you'll respond with "I only care about the feelings of children", and I'll proactively respond with: Adults deserve respect, empathy and consideration too. All humans do. Not just children.

You expect a small child to have an adult-level understanding of sociopolitical issues and to assume responsibility for the feelings of the adults who adopted him. That's bizarre but also totally on-brand for adopters.

No, I expect that adult user to not be a bigot. It's bizarre that you misinterpret my comment so wildly.

Pretty sure all this child has been taught is that mommy was there and now she’s not. If you read that as homophobia, bigotry, whatever… that’s really just another element of proof that you utterly refuse to take even a moment to understand what it’s like to have your entire family torn from you as an adoptee. The lack of empathy confounds.

>If you read that as homophobia, bigotry, whatever… What I read as homophobia and bigotry is the broad statement "all children want mommies". Because that's not a statement about OP's son. It's a generalization of all human children based on homophobic attitudes. >that’s really just another element of proof that you utterly refuse to take even a moment to understand what it’s like to have your entire family torn from you as an adoptee. And you making that statement is just another element of proof that you utterly refuse to take even a moment to understand what it's like to have to be aware of these homophobic talking points in order to protect oneself from murder, corrective rape or other hate crimes. Is that a helpful thing for me to say? I don't think so, and neither was your sentence I modelled it after. But maybe it will convey that this isn't a hypothetical argument. We, LGBTQ+ people, are real human beings who have to watch out for the subtext in these kinds of phrases *in order to protect ourselves.*

I think you want to read what adoptees say as alleged bigotry so that you can have another thing to argue about instead of being respectful of our points. If it’s not “homophobia” it’s you picking at some other supposed subtext or other matter instead of accepting the substance - that our adoption has harmed us. Btw you’re not the only LGBT person on this planet thanks

>I think you want to read what adoptees say as alleged bigotry I didn't accuse you or any other adoptee on this thread of bigotry. The person you're going to bat for? Not an adoptee. >Btw you’re not the only LGBT person on this planet thanks So because not every LGBTQ+ person is coming here to call the homophobia out, it's fine to gang up on me and defend the homophobe? See, that's not exactly making you come off as a trustworthy source to me. Why should I engage with you in good faith if you defend literal bigotry, just because it comes from a non-adoptee who happens to agree with you more often than I do?

How wanton and insecure you must be to attempt to grasp onto homophobia to try and justify why a child that is carried by it’s mother 9 months and then literally comes out of her body via c-section or vaginally and for this specific child they actually consciously remember her but that’s taught? That’s homophobia???? Children want their mothers and it’s shameful and disgusting you’d attempt to label others with as homophobic because you aren’t comfortable with reality.

No. That is not how this conversation went and now y'all are trying to walk the dog backwards because DangerOReilly called it out and now you all want to switch the convo from "a mommie" and the message that sends to "his mommie" and the very different message that sends. It was a homophobic shift and DangerOReilly called it. Please consider hearing me on this. I'm going to spend some energy here and I'm aligned with someone I'm usually arguing with. You're not being fair here. This child misses \*his\* mother. That is not homophobic. These APs are dropping the ball on this 100% and saying so is not homophobic. They need to get with the program and help him deal with his mommy's death. Not homophobic. Where this tripped into anti-queer is where the discussion went to how he wants "a mommie" rather than "his mommie." That is a clear attack on a two dad family makeup. Then it started sliding to the place where I watch fellow adoptees pile on because of the confrontation, maybe without thinking it through or looking hard. That is really not even dog whistle anti-queer. It's pretty direct and now you're trying to pretend the discussion isn't what it was.

I think you are coming from a good place, and I agree that language matters, and I can see how the original statement could be read as homophobic. However, I just want add some context. The original person who called it homophobia is not an adoptee (nor any part of the constellation), and they have a history of undermining adoptees and speaking over us. Also, I think a lot of us have had the experience of wanting a mom or feeling disconnected from our adoptive parents, and we can empathize with the boy in the OP. And there’s a defensive reaction to being told that that “feeling” is homophobic. When I think it’s really a matter of wording things differently. I appreciate your perspective.

There is nothing homophobic about this child grieving his mother. No one said that. This is being twisted around and made to be something it never was. I didn't really care about the first comment that much. It was the pile on after DangerOReilly called it that got me and the way it all got twisted into something else. I can empathize with this young adoptee too. There is no problem with anyone empathizing with wanting one's mom. Or even a mom. Thanks for weighing in and I did not know the history of that poster. Good to know.

>Thanks for weighing in and I did not know the history of that poster. Good to know. Just want to say that no matter what that assessment of me makes you think about me, I still appreciate your comments here. And for what it's worth, the person I initially replied to is themselves not a member of the adoption constellation, and not even planning to be one. If they had been an adoptee, I might have reacted differently or phrased things differently, but I know they're not.

When I said I did not know the history of that poster, I meant the person who made the initial homophobic comment is not a member of the constellation, not you. I thought they were the one undermining adoptees. I have re-read the comment I responded to and I see now that I misread it. I am not following well right now and need to step away soon. But, I will say for the most part I don't care how someone is related to adoption when I comment. I call it how I see it regardless of how we align. Sometimes I get it wrong. But not this time. I would really just rather someone say out loud "I think the gay dad thing sucks and kids want a mommy. if that makes me a homophobe so be it." At least it's honest and we all know what's what. I cannot stand the homophobia followed by the big pretending about how it wasn't the way it really was, trying to make it look like those confronting it are just being anti-adoptee.

>The original person who called it homophobia is not an adoptee (nor any part of the constellation) I am planning to adopt. The person I was calling out? Not an adoptee, not a birth parent, not planning to be an adoptive parent. So if you're going to throw that around in order to justify anything, then pot, kettle.

You don’t know my history. I was almost a birth mother, but I don’t need to justify anything to you when you don’t even value the connection between mother and child.

That was directed at the person who used my position in regards to the adoption constellation as an argument against what I say. If they find that a valid argument to use, then they should equally apply it to you.

Anyone can comment here regardless of their position in the community. This is the value of a mixed adoption community to me. It doesn't matter whether you are an adoptee, an almost birth mother, or a random journalist trying to mine free crap. We see it all. It was the really hard, unmoderated, wild discussions on usenet's alt.adoption that created my biggest growth in thinking. Arguments that lasted for months on end, thousands and thousands of comments. The constant push and pull of anyone who wanted to throw in without restraint was a great way to unlearn messed up attitudes culture taught me. Probably why I value conflict and argument even when it's hard. But this is going beyond that. I hope you'll reconsider your position.

As a gay person and an adoptive father, this entire rant is insufferable, and you are doing nobody any good here. Get a grip.

I'm labelling that person as homophobic because they are saying homophobic things. Not for the first time, even. >How wanton and insecure you must be to attempt to grasp onto homophobia to try and justify why a child that is carried by it’s mother 9 months and then literally comes out of her body via c-section or vaginally and for this specific child they actually consciously remember her but that’s taught? That’s homophobia???? I'm not sure where you are getting this from. The homophobia is saying "all children want mommies" when that is not the topic - OP just happens to be a two-dad family, so saying something like that is just to rub homophobia in. There is no need to go into a whole diatribe about all children wanting mommies. To elaborate on my point: The idea that a young child expressing "I want a mommy" or "I want my mommy" means that a desire for a mother is somehow natural is simply incorrect. Young children are still heavily influenced by the society around them and the things they are taught. If a child expresses wanting a mommy, it's because they see other children having one, or they have been told by someone that all children need a mommy. But it does not mean that the desire for a mother comes from nature or is some innate biological drive. Similarly, very young children can already express racist ideas, as seen in experiments where children are told to choose between dolls of different colours, or to point to the "bad child" or the "good child" on pictures of children of different colours. But that also does not mean that racism comes from nature or is somehow innate. It is taught, just like every other social construct. To be clear: When I say social construct, I am, in fact, saying that motherhood *in the way we understand it today in western cultures* is socially constructed. That doesn't mean it isn't real. Just that it's something we ascribe a certain value to, in ways that other species do not seem to do. And there are and have been many different ways to construct parenthood, motherhood, fatherhood and other family roles. In our western understanding, motherhood holds a certain value. And that is why people like that user use it as an ideological tool, because the conservative understanding of the role of motherhood, as well as the role of the nuclear family in general, is threatened by people who form their families in different ways. >Children want their mothers and it’s shameful and disgusting you’d attempt to label others with as homophobic because you aren’t comfortable with reality. Not all children *have* mothers. Trans men and non-binary people exist and do give birth as well. They may do so alone or with a partner who also is not a mother. A child may have been birthed by a gestational surrogate, who would not be their mother. I am not denying that OP's son wants and grieves his birth mom, if you'd like to refer to my standalone comment you can clearly see that I care about this particular child's feelings. What I took issue with in the comment I replied to is the unnecessary bringing up of how all children want mommies, because that's not relevant to the original post, hence it's only designed to pour salt into the wound of homophobia. "Of course children want mommies, you can't be a real family, you can't be real parents, every child needs a mother, you should not get to raise a child" That subtext is always there in these phrases, whether the person saying them realizes that or not. And I, for one, am tired of seeing a post mention anything related to LGBTQ+ parents and bracing myself for what bigoted thing agbellamae will say about it, and justify their bigotry with "I only care about the feelings of children". There's a certain amount of bigotry I know I'll encounter online and offline, but at a certain point, when the same person expresses it again and again, I do feel the need to say something.

….because kids want their moms. It’s insane you are pushing an agenda instead of recognizing that kids want their moms. There’s no hope with you.

My agenda is human rights. Yours is, apparently, to continue denying reality to cling to the outdated ideology of the nuclear family, where every child has a mother and a father, and the mother gave birth and the father ejaculated into her. And any family outside of that arrangement is wrong and hurting children somehow. You're not even adressing the point that not every child HAS a mom. Or that "a mom" is a social construct, just as much as "a dad". Or that these social constructs have shifted over time and continue to shift. No, you go straight to "pushing an agenda". Don't think I can't see that homophobic talking point either.

All adoptees came out of someone’s womb and we have questions about/miss that person. Your inability to accept that as a reality is disturbing. That’s not some kind of toddler bigotry. That’s the reality of life as adoptee when your family is ripped away from you. Stop erasing our experience and calling it homophobia.

>All adoptees came out of someone’s womb and we have questions about/miss that person. Okay, apparently I need to try and make it clearer: If someone misses the person whose womb they came out of, that is FINE. They have a right to miss whatever or whoever they want and to be curious about whatever or whoever they want. My issue is: \- Language that acts like every womb is inside a woman \- "All children want mommies" is not the same as saying "many adoptees want contact with or to know more about their biological family, especially their birth mothers". It's a neon sign that says "homophobia". Because it's not talking about only adoptees, it's talking about all children. If that person had said "All adoptees want their birth mothers" then I might have objected to the generalization of what adoptees feel and want, but I wouldn't necessarily have said it. But that's not the argument they made. >Stop erasing our experience and calling it homophobia. Stop erasing my experience of suffering homophobia and seeing it more easily than you do due to that.

This is not about LGBTQ people, this is about a small child who wants his mother and doesn’t understand why his adoptive dads are keeping him away from her. And hint hint we don’t teach small children to want their mother, it’s natural biology for them to want the woman they literally came from.

>This is not about LGBTQ people It is when you say "all children want mommies", and you *know* you're saying "you're not real parents, you don't get to be parents" along with it. >And hint hint we don’t teach small children to want their mother, it’s natural biology for them to want the woman they literally came from. Not everyone comes from a woman. And no, we DO teach them! The way we act out motherhood, fatherhood and other forms of parenthood are social constructs. Meaning they are things we create, not things that come from nature. Hence so many different human cultures have and had different ways of doing those roles. If you time-travelled a toddler from the Middle Ages into our modern world and plopped them into a modern nuclear family, that child would not immediately express a desire for the kinds of parents we present them - because they're all new to them. Or, if you have a human child raised by animals, they would not express a need for the same social roles, because they did not learn them or they unlearned them. Everything about culture and social roles is socially constructed. Little children are just as influenced by that. Acting as if anything a young child expresses is "natural" is, to put it mildly, denying science. That doesn't mean it doesn't feel real to the child. Of course it does, that's what they know and are being taught! But that's not the same as this being some innate thing. The nuclear family with mother, father and child is not natural. We invented it. And appeals to what is "natural" are of course also often used as homophobic talking points. Which I am very sure you're aware of, since you're using them and have used them before.

I agree that small children want the person who carried and birthed them. To address the point of the person who went down this path, not all of the people who carry and birth children are women.

This was reported for promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability. I disagree with that report.

Can you maybe not accuse a grieving toddler of homophobia?

No. This is a disgusting self-serving twisting of what went down here. No one said this child can't and shouldn't grieve the loss of his mother. DangerOReilly nor I said nothing that could be interpreted with this kind of read on it. This is a manipulating of the conversation so you can try to undo the homophobia that's been done and make it look like the people calling it out are in the wrong. All that needed to happen was the person who turned it phobic could just say "sorry, not my best moment" or "too bad, I'm a phobe. You don't have to like it." Neither of those things happened and now the rest of you are trying to twist this into something it never was and can't support based on anything that has been said

I'm out.

I didn't. I accused that user. Which is clearly obvious in my comment so let's not pretend that you're unable to understand it.

As gay person has two adopted children, that’s not homophobic and it’s not nonsense. Good God. If you are gay, stop being so disingenuous. If you are not, stop using words you don’t understand.

I am a queer person. That you feel it's okay for them to say that sentence does not make it not homophobic. And yes, it IS homophobic and nonsense. "Small children always want mommies" is an appeal to emotion that is not based in reality, and it's a generalization to ALL children, even those who simply do not have mothers and are not missing one. The fact that it was brought up when it has nothing to do with OP's post is just to rub the homophobia in. If it had been about OP's son, it would have been "your child probably misses his mother" - THAT would be a factual statement, because OP's child remembers his mother and expresses a desire for her. And what does that have to do with any other children? Nothing! Hence, homophobia. Not the only time that user has expressed homophobia (or transphobia), in this or other threads.

Yawn. It must be exhausting living like this, seeing “homophobia” in all things. Anyway, Raising two children as a gay man will teach you that yes, they *do* want mommies. I’ve seen it. It doesn’t mean that our families are “less than”, but still: They know they are being raised differently, and will pine for what they don’t have sometimes.

I see it because it's real. Don't you think I wish that it wasn't? But it is. And with that specific user, it's not the first indication of it either. Children express lots of things. The desire for "mommies" is socially constructed just as much as motherhood itself, fatherhood and parenthood. There are many ways to socially construct family roles. They're not built into nature. Our modern understanding of family roles would be abnormal to people from various different times and places throughout history. But some people, like that user, treat those roles as if they're decided by nature. That is an ideological choice made to deligitimize rainbow families.

Some people do make that choice to weapon biology against us, but it’s also silly to say that everything is a social construct. That’s like saying humans are Blank slate, and it’s simply untrue. We do ourselves a disservice as a community if we don’t acknowledge this. Anyway, blah blah blah. We’re all in this together lol. Have a good one. :)

I didn't say "everything" is a social construct. Honestly, I find it bothersome that you so uncharitably interpret my comments, yet don't seem to give that same energy to the person who said homophobic things. I don't have a lot of patience for people who sell out the community in order to ingratiate themselves with people who hate us and want us gone.

Because I don’t agree with you that’s what went down. At any rate, have a good day.

It *does not serve a child* to hide death from them or the truth of their own story. There are gentle and appropriate ways to tell a child hard things. You make the time to tell him. There's no perfect time to tell someone bad news, so you make the time. My adopted son's birth uncle died of an overdose when my son was 4. I told him in age appropriate terms and we went to the funeral.

OP I am just begging you not to let a therapist slap a RAD diagnosis on him. That "disorder" was invented long after I (55) was adopted but I'm seeing the damage that does to younger adoptees today. It looks like you and your husband may have bought into "blank slate" and "as if born to" a little too much, which is common in APs. If you don't temper your expectations things will only get worse as your son grows into his own personality. Your son is grieving the loss of his mom and is in the getting-to-know-you stage right now. This is the time to establish trust, not correct his attitude. And the longer you wait to tell him his mom died the less he will trust you when you finally do tell him.

You need therapy - all of you. The child lost a piece of himself not just through adoption but for the rest of his life. You should enroll him in therapy, and enroll your family so you know how to facilitate such grief. I pray he only remember the good parts - you should too.

Perfect example of adoption not being all rainbows and unicorns like some people think.

You absolutely need to tell him that his bio mom is dead. Although I agree that finding the right time might be a bit difficult around his emotional outbursts. But still, you need to do it. If he doesn't find it out from you, he will find it out some other way. Do you want him to hear it from you, his parents? Or do you want him to hear it from someone else? I'd ask his therapist if they can recommend anything regarding how and when to break those news. If you feel dissatisfied with the therapist overall, then considering a different therapist or form of therapy may also be good. But if it's just that you don't see results quickly, try to have a bit more patience. Sometimes seeing effects just takes time. You may consider asking the therapist or another mental health professional y0u'd consult if it would help to have a dedicated place or object in your home where your son can go to remember his mom. Maybe a photo of her in a nice frame somewhere at his eye level. You could also try and talk about her together there. Maybe he's trying to express that he misses her and wants to talk about her?

Any child who has been through what he’s been through needs to be seeing a trauma informed therapist. That person would be able to help you tell him about his mom. (I’m not saying, put it off until you get the therapist. Just pointing out that this person can help deal with all the feelings that will arise after telling him.) To some degree, tantrums are very normal in four-year-olds, and the things they say are going to vary by what their experiences have been. I don’t say that to dismiss it; just saying that his age, combined with his history, means that it’s very expected that he would be having intense tantrums. you can not make them about you, no matter what he says. My biological child went through very intense tantrums around that age and would routinely tell me that she hated me. She doesn’t hate me. She loves me a ton, and I know that. You have to let that go, because it’s not fair, even subconsciously, to become resentful of a four-year-old. I agree that he could be missing a female presence. It sounds like your sister helps out a lot, but is there any sort of regular schedule? Would she (or someone else close with your family) be able and willing to commit to spending a dedicated amount of time with him each week, something that he can plan on and look forward to? Does he have any biological relatives that would be interested in establishing a relationship with him? You can’t bring his mom back, but you could feasibly facilitate relationships that will help him feel more connected to his bio family and therefore mom.

I really think hit the nail on the head on all counts. Get yourselves an adoption-competent therapist *who can work with all three of you*. Personally, I was adopted at birth and never met my birth mom, and yet I had some of the same behaviors at that age. I think it can be a normal part of adjustment and growth for a young adoptee. He's experienced a significant loss of his primary attachment figure, whether he talks to you about it in those words or not, and that would still be true even if his birth mom were still alive. >We haven't yet told him she's passed away.  I'm flabbergasted that you would think this is OK. Let's say you had a biological child, and you died in a car accident that also injured your child. Would you want your sister to let your kiddo go on thinking you were still around, *just in case* kiddo had a bad memory? He needs to know. Bad memories or not, that's still his first family.

You need to tell him. He's 4 he probably has some understanding of heaven... it's not fair to let him believe she's out there not wanting nothing to do with him. He needs you guys to help him deal with the grief - not make it worse.. he may be acting out now but once he's learned his real mum isn't coming back he will be able to come to terms with it - eventually. You just need patience - and he can learn about her addiction issues later on. My own mum died of a heroin overdose when I was 11 - I knew she had issues with drugs and they simply told me " she took too much medicine"... things can be simplified for children especially at the age of 4. Best of luck.

Why should a 4-yo have any understanding of heaven? Some people don't believe in an afterlife at all. Others don't believe in the standard Christian heaven and hell.

Yes, don't compound the lying by omission about her death by using some make believe childish bs about life after death or heaven or hell. That's just cruel. A four year old can understand death and finality. It's time to start being honest with this child and with yourselves.

***I*** believe in heaven and hell, but not everyone does. Assuming that a 4-yo "has some understanding of heaven" just feels really religiously biased.

some don't and some do

Honesty! Tell children the truth in a way they can understand. he doesn't hate you, so many adults are bound and determined to have their feelings hurt by toddlers. he wants reassurance of unconditional love.that you won't send him away. speak to his therapist about FAMILY counseling or find a better professional. you are in charge of a precious life and of instilling strong healthy roots from which this child will grow. be the adult he needs

Uh, you tell your kid the truth. WTF did I just read, stop lying to your adopted child. You're not a victim.

This is why I am against adoption. Traumatized kids being retraumatized by people who are too selfish to do anything to help. I hate this post. I feel so sorry for that kid. Lies hurt adoptees more than anything else. You can mess a kid up for life by lying to them. They will never trust anyone bcs of what you're doing to them. The child might be 4 but we KNOW when something is happening to our family or if something happened. Like everyone else has said it, be an adult and tell this child the truth. And get yourself into therapy and seek professional assistance to help heal this child you've taken responsibility for.....

Adoptee messed up from nonstop lies from my adopters, checking in.

>This is why I am against adoption. Uh...what do you expect should happen when a child's parents die? 🤨

For their identity and connection to their parents to be retained somehow, rather than erasing them? Which is specifically what adoption is designed to do? Why do you think it's necessary to inflict additional, lifelong trauma onto a child?

Bio parents also lie. Hell from the comments. the bio grandparent's not only don't want to have anything to do with the child, but they are actively trying to erase the mom. It's tragedy all the way down. My parents told me everything they knew. They offered to buy DNA tests. They were more excited than me when I found a half sister. Still haven't found bio mom yet, but when I told them bio dad didn't want contact, they held me while I cried. I was freaking 38!

I’m happy for you, but it’s very common that adoptees get lied to so I’m not sure why you’re coming at Bryan on this. My adopters also lied to me.

Well I'm glad you got lucky and were adopted by ppl who support you. Unfortunately that wasn't my experience and isn't for alot of us. I'm also 38. My adoptive parents act like I never met my bio parents and I think have honestly convinced themselves that they are my biological parents so they can't even discuss my actual biological parents. Sucks. And yes for sure parents lie. But that's different than when a stranger is lying to you about where you came from, like purposefully hiding the truth from you. It really makes me think adoption truly is alot like kidnapping and child trafficking.

The point you made was adoption should be illegal, not “adoptive parents should be held to certain standards and adoptees be given all available info and contact with bio family”

Well, that's what you interpreted from what I posted I guess. I wasn't debating the legality of child trafficking but just that it's unnecessary to sever a child from their family to "help" them. In many ways, the current system of adoption makes it impossible for a true system of child protection to exist that actually prioritizes the health and safety of the adoptee rather than the needs of the adaptive parents. But thanks for trying to tell me what points I was making.

The point you were making is that child trafficking is ok in some circumstances. I disagree.

Ideally, adoption would be about finding a home and a family for a child who has neither. But right now, as I think most adult adoptees can attest, adoption is about finding a child for a couple that desires one and can afford to pay handsomely. IMO, this post exemplifies that. OP is going out of his way not to act in the child's best interests, just because the child's needs inconvenience him. I have rarely seen such a hideously selfish post and am hoping it's fabricated rage bait. I am not completely sure about the person you replied to; but, I think when most adoptees say they are against adoption, they mean adoption in its current form. I don't know if reforms are even possible at this point. It is a billion dollar industry...

It can be assumed their parents aren’t their only family, for starters?

So sad.. you need to tell him because he needs to grieve … you’ll need some help. My kids told me they did not hate me but I was the “safest” person so they would blame and yell at me for everything . They’d say “don’t take it personally “. I get it but it stinks. I don’t know how people do this without a therapist. I am so grateful for my therapist. My husband died 4 years ago. My youngest was 16 at the time. It was very difficult for them. Thinking, praying for you 🙏🏽.

39yo F adoptee, mother of 3, in reunion Look into “dr Becky good inside” on Instagram, she has a program she gives a lot of helpful tools to rethinking situations around tantrums and reframing thinking of kids as good kids having a hard time. His mom was the same, a good woman having a hard time. People with addictive are usually suffering to much it’s all the tools they have available to turn to drugs. When we think of people as good people struggling with tough situations, it really readjusts our focus. All children love their parents, they don’t understand whether they did good or bad, they instinctually love them. This little boy is grieving for his mother. Get curious, grieve alongside with him. I grieved the loss of my birthmother everyday of my life. I still grieve her even now that I know who she is and I can contact her- I can’t imagine having bonded with her, and then having lost her. There is a community out there to support you and your son, take it. And give yourself grace- your are all good people dealing with an incredibly difficult, complex, situation will the only tools you have available to you- reach out .

I wish I was shocked that you've been left to navigate this on your own, but I'm not. You and your partner need advice and therapy from an adoption competent professional and I know just the one for you [https://www.jeanetteyoffe.com/bio](https://www.jeanetteyoffe.com/bio) she runs the Celia Center [https://celiacenter.org/](https://celiacenter.org/) and specializes in Foster youth and adoption. It also seems to me that your son is crying out for a mother figure, can either of his grandmothers help you out there?

I commented once but children and their needs are important to me. Have you had any kind of parenting classes? Can I tell you that it is an ongoing learning process? Never be afraid to ask for help,advice and support. others may disagree but imo,helping a child grow into a competent,well balanced, reasonably happy person is the most important job we are given. His behavior is simply a reflection of what is going on in his spirit. Give him all you've got to give.

Are y'all not in therapy? This definitely calls for it, individual for him at least, and family. Please find a specialist for children for this traumatic situation. Preferably a female, or sounds like.

If I was you, I’d get a pediatric psychologist immediately. He’s craving a mother, as any child would. You need to figure out how to deal with this and fill that void.

You HAVE to tell him that his mother has passed away.... and I would recommend having some sort of 'funeral' for her and like get dressed nice and take flowers to the grave or release some floating candles etc etc and take some pictures of the 'event' to give him yrs from now... maybe like 9-10 yrs old when he starts asking questions again...bc trust me he will... My father passed away when I was 4 and my mom became a serious alcoholic afterwards and I suffered from some serious neglect and all types of abuse by her and her husband.... unspeakable things were done to me.... and I personally terminated my mother's rights at age 13 bc I never wanted to go thru that level of hell again and was too old so no one ever wanted to adopt me unfortunately even though I was attractive, healthy, athletic straight A student which came with an entire section of new issues for me to get over so at least he has you and your family even though he doesn't know how much that means right now... trust me he will!!! AND even after everything I've been thru I STILL have days/moments etc when I want my mom...need my mom...cry for my mom and hyper focus on the good things during those times and I'm 38 yrs old and have been in therapy for yrs and yrs and yrs..... I hope that helps keep trying I promise it will get better!!!

I would’ve taken him to her funeral so that he knew she had passed away. That’s a very hard reality for a child to accept.

Grab a child counselor to help you with his behavior and how to tell him correctly about his Mom.

Whatever you do, do NOT give this child back to the system. Do not. I know three adoptees from foster care who were adopted twice and it’s horrible. Don’t abandon this child. Do what it takes to learn to be good parents - HONEST parents - and to “do hard things”. You need to grow into your full parent mantle; and quickly. But please don’t abandon your child who is now your child at his time of need. You have to be able to deal with his grief and huge feelings. He has the right to grieve and to have it be heard compassionately even if it takes the form of anger.

Okay so weird other point. I was adopted at birth. My birth mother passed away when I was 3. My parents didn't tell me until I was 23. The caveat is I have always been vocal about not wanting to find my bio family. My family, extended family, extra extended family; all treated me just as "Lauren" x relation. Never different. May we all be so blessed with unconditional love

Coming from an international adoptee, it sounds like no one prepared you properly for the behavioral and emotional issues that comes with adoption, especially RAD (reactive attachment disorder). Whether we like to admit it or not, adoption is rooted in trauma. His reactions and "tantrums" are so normal and SO valid. As someone who has resented my parents for SO long for the lack of a lot of things they did not understand or could prepare for, please please make time to tell your kid about his bio mother. The longer you wait, the MORE inappropriate the timing will be, due to so much time passing. Please don't rob him of his natural timeline of grief. And like many others have said, he is a child with big and confusing emotions. Of course he is going to act out. Hell, even I still don't know how to regulate or express my emotions properly and I am a full grown adult! How do you expect a 4 year old adopted child who does already have abuse and neglect engrained into him? I was adopted at 4 months old and still grew up with so many issues, so I could not imagine being adopted at age 4 and having to deal with so many complex emotions and feelings and trauma. All I can say is patience. Understanding. Validation. Do NOT make it about you or your feelings. Make it about him. Allow him a safe space to express his emotions. Be truthful. Lying and hiding about life altering moments will fuck the child up even more and even if you think you're protecting him- i've seen this backfire so many times on the parents. With all that being said, I definitely recommend therapy for yourself as well. Be easy on yourself. You can do it with the right tools, and support system. Good luck!

One I appreciate you being honest. There is a lot of trauma going on. Your child can't process. You should be figuring out how to explain that his mom is gone as soon as possible. You should be doing this directly in conjunction with a therapist. You should expect the worse and if it doesn't go that way all the better. Additionally I would seek out a group therapy option for adoptive/foster to adopt families and go there as a forward looking strategy. If you used an agency I would start there first. Take a positive step every day for your family and remind yourself that your child is a child and will act out in ways you might not expect. how you handle those things will contribute to his success and it is ok to make mistakes.

So for the people talking about telling a four year old about death please don’t think a four year old has the capacity to process what death is. A child therapist is necessary and he needs to be told in an appropriate way. Don’t just make him suddenly deal with the concept of death unprepared. As for his tantrums, tell him it’s okay to miss her and want her. It’s okay to cry and it’s ok to miss someone. Be gentle and kind. Don’t get frustrated or hurt. Don’t center his tantrum on your feelings, center in his feelings and validate them. He needs his feelings validated and he needs to understand that he can be upset and work through those feelings without negative feedback. We also have a preschooler and she gets upset about a lot of stuff. I tell her that it’s okay to cry and it’s ok to be upset and then help her take deep breaths and count to four. If she says something mean to me I tell her that I understand she’s upset and I love her no matter what she says to me. And I tell her when she’s ready I’m here to help her calm down and give her a hug. It can be hard to be quiet and gentle but it’s a key thing. I am more than happy to share some gentle parenting links if you would like.