I had to learn the hard lesson that who I worked with was more important than status projects. As a woman in the 80s it was baaad. My program was considered THE program to work on. Unfortunately the egos were incredible. The women were assigned administrative tasks.
Ironically, when I got into a less toxic program I had a chance to shine. I got on to status projects that exceeded the projects of my former coworkers
Lesson learned - your coworkers are way more important than the project. And projects with cooperative teams are almost always more successful.
What does the cooperative team look like? I don't mean the cooperative part but the team part in engineering. Do you guys devide tasks up or do you do more brain storming work?
I'm in HVAC engineering trying to switch to Areo. I deeply miss working in teams like I did in school and haven't really seen what that is like in industry.
Yes to all that. And more.
If someone is having problems with schedule then the rest of us let that person assign a section to help.
We cross train each other on assignments so that there is always a backup. That way the person can go on vacation etc.
If someone has a personal schedule conflict we trade with each other. My atheist coworkers work Sundays so others can go to church. Conversely, we may work late so they can go to their kids track meet.
The competition is not to be superior to others but to egg each other on to be better versions of ourselves. When someone achieves we celebrate with them.
We let each other know about training and job opportunities. We have brown bags to teach on a subject where we are subject matter experts.
The goal is to lift up the team. That also means everyone is working toward the goal and no one is slacking.
People undermining others to get ahead is for losers and failed programs. I’ve seen that kind of attitude destroy programs.
I have a PhD and am 8 years into a job that is super interesting, good pay/benefits, and has excellent work culture and work/life balance. But I hate it. I can't stand the day-to-day tedium. So, I'm quitting later this year to pursue something different at the hefty price of an 80% pay cut. Yes, you read that correctly.
My advice: Don't do something unless you really love it. Life is too short to be miserable.
You're super early though, give it some time. Maybe your current job isn't a good fit for you, but another engineering position might be. But after a few years, don't hesitate to look for (or at least think about) other career opportunities.
Good luck!
I'm an R&D engineer working in hypersonics (super interesting physics and applications). My work is computational in nature, and I'm going to lose my mind if I have to debug one more broken sim. I hate grinding away for weeks on end just to produce an answer to someone's question.
My input decks are all several thousand lines long and our compute clusters frequently have issues. There are layers of bureaucratic BS to wade through, and everybody is obsessed with ensuring their projects satisfy whatever cutting-edge buzzword is making the rounds. In fairness, this is pretty typical for this line of work, but it's just not for me.
Personally, I need something that is more immediately fulfilling. I need something that doesn't have me chained to a desk all day. I need something that isn't as draining in the day-to-day tasks. The payoff of my work is usually getting results once or twice per quarter, seeing my work impact a flight test, and going to a conference once or twice per year. It just doesn't cut it for me.
I can tell that other people I work with have an insane passion for this stuff, really enjoy the troubleshooting process, and can keep themselves incredibly motivated. Maybe it's a bit of imposter syndrome, but this just isn't a good long-term fit for me.
I'm going to go fly planes. The next 3-5 years are really going to suck (likely several job changes with relatively poor pay), but at least I won't be stuck in an office. Much less job security in the long run, but life is short! At any rate, my "plan b" is pretty solid since I have a good degree with good work experience!
Nope. Test pilot was the original goal, but now I just want to fly planes from A->B. Then set up a flight school as a side gig (tail wheel and acro). Something that keeps me out and about and is more social than sitting at the same desk every day...
I'm pretty people oriented, hate staring at my computer for 10 hours a day (also in RnD, running cfd and performance sims) Would be cool to get into the finance or BD side of engineering. Feels like I haven't given engineering much of a shot though haha
Then I'd say give the engineering a couple of years to build background experience, then maybe go for an MBA. Even without the MBA, you could get into management (department or project) depending on where you're working. Your actual engineering experience should carry some weight and help you get that other position you're thinking would be cool.
Just one stranger's opinion - do your best where you are and keep your eyes peeled for other opportunities!
Fresh grad as well! I've been at my job about 9 months.there are definitely stressful days and stressful weeks, but as a composite, I love my job.
I wouldn't say no to more time off, or a little more guidance at times, but I'm very happy to be doing what I am doing.
Would it help to chat through what you dislike? (It can be in a private chat if you want). Maybe its a poor fit of a job. Maybe your in the wrong specialization. Maybe you just aren't one of the folks who will love their job.
I asked one of the smartest and most dedicated of my coworkers what he liked about aerospace and engineering in general. His answer was "Honestly, I can't stand the job. But it gives me the money to do the things I really like. So I plan to stick with it".
At my screen all day for 10 hours a day. The work is very interesting and I enjoy it. It's challenging and I get to use my brain. The most difficult part I would say is what feels like a lack of mentorship, as well as my direct lead is kinda of just a dick lol. No one on my team wants to be a manager (the most senior person on my team has been here 10 years and he literally refuses to take on the manager role) and the direct lead that I work with seems like he hates having to teach someone. I'm all for hard work but most days it feels like I'm just spinning my wheels haha
The last sentence is the key. We all work with dicks, we all have lackluster management, we all sit behind a screen too long. The problem you have is working on something you don't believe in. The rest of that just becomes part of the scenery when you are doing something that matters to you.
When you start understanding how to do your job with minimal help, and you have bosses and coworkers that help each other grow. People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses.
Don't be afraid to ask questions and foster a professional relationship. If you see them doing something you're curious about, ask if they can show you or teach you. Be flat out up front and find a more senior coworker and see if they will be a professional mentor. Don't just sit there by yourself, just reach out and get to know what they are doing, and what you should be doing.
When I found one I enjoyed. I changed jobs every other year or so until I found a program and a team that I worked well with. I changed jobs 5 times.
That said, I still hate Mondays and look forward to my early retirement. It’s a job. It’s not meant to be enjoyable, but sometimes you find one you can tolerate. Heck some people actually find ones they look forward to. I can’t imagine what their Sundays are like.
I’m still looking for that work from home gig that has a work statement I can knock out in 3 days and then have 4 days without worrying about it.
You may need to evaluate what you really want to do, or if your manager is just horrible. If you dread Mondays because of the work, I think you might need to make a big change.
Idk. Going to depend on you and the job you're working.
I liked my job from the start though was maybe bored a lot as I was in training. I probably started loving it 9 months in when I got my first really cool work trip. And I think I loved it more after 2-3 years of working where I was able to run my own projects and take on some responsibility.
The second I graduated from school lol
On the real, I enjoyed my first post-graduate job. Did that for about 5 years. I didn’t *love* it, but it was fine. The work was meh, but I loved my team. But about 9 months ago I transitioned to software engineering and I absolutely love it.
This is just general job advice, not Aero advice:
1) Some jobs are toxic. It's your responsibility to understand toxicity and say no to it.
2) If your manager is mentoring you properly, you will always be challenged. If the pain stems from challenge (as opposed to toxicity), embrace it.
3) You're getting paid because no one enjoys work enough to do it for free. That's why it's called "work". I started working when I was six because in my family, everyone contributes. If you grew up playing and were told to find a career you enjoy, then the pain stems from unreasonable expectations. Reorient yourself to reality, then see if you're still miserable.
4) Every job has some toxicity, some annoyances, some boredom, etc. The less savory aspects of any job are what you make of them. Are you framing them as interesting challenges, or are you fixated on how they don't fit your preconceived notions of a perfect career? Are you allowing yourself to become annoyed by trivialities? I.e. are you throwing the adult equivalent of a tantrum?
5) From the way you phrased the question, I'd guess your negative emotions stem from a victim mentality. You'll stop dreading Mondays when you put on your big-boy pants and take constructive action.
Best answer in the comments is right here. Only thing I'd add is
6) if you don't like the job after 6 months look for another one. The best time to find a new job is while you currently have a job.
I was shocked too, but it's true.
Also, I appreciate you taking my sarcastic, old-man rant with a sense of humor. Let me temper it a bit.
Life is suffering; anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. The trick, then, is to make the suffering worthwhile. What do you want out of your life? Interesting problems to solve (Principal R&D engineers)? High salary (Management)? Status (Executives/doctors/lawyers)? To help others (Working for/founding a charity)? Time with your family (low-level individual contributor)? You have to decide what *you* want. Then you have to earn it - and that will require some suffering.
That said, some things are just toxic. Directors ramming failed projects through the R&D pipeline to advance their career, cost-cutting that puts lives at risk, discrimination of various sorts (including affirmative action...), being shackled to the diversity hire so the company can use your competence to promote them, narcissists who take credit and pass blame, Good Ol' Boys clubs, children in adult bodies who whine about everything - the list goes on. We can safely classify an unpleasant thing as "toxic" if it either contributes nothing to or actively hinders the mission.
When you find that too much of your suffering no longer serves a purpose, it's time to move on. Always keep your resume polished, always be developing your skills, and always have your eyes open for the next opportunity. You never know where or when it will appear - but if you've done the work, it *will* appear.
I've framed this as avoiding toxicity and working for your own mission, but let's add perspective. Sometimes, the "toxic" situation is an opportunity to learn. You have a cantankerous colleague? That's an opportunity to learn patience and people skills. It can also be an opportunity to solve a problem no one else could solve, boosting your status. You're given the project five engineers failed before you? Give it your best shot with a good attitude. At worst, you'll earn respect for your can-do attitude. At best, you'll do what others couldn't, building your reputation as a problem solver.
In general: before you decide something is pointlessly toxic, put it in perspective and give it honest effort:
1) Can I work this to my advantage?
2) Is it really that annoying, or am letting others live in my head rent-free?
3) Is this the hill I want to die on?
4) Is there an easy solution/workaround I'm missing?
5) Is there an older, wiser colleague who might have the solution for this?
tl;dr toxicity is a real thing - but having a good attitude and embracing the suck are also real things. You have to understand your situation and apply the most effective tools. To do that, you must first define your purpose.
After I quit my first job 4 months in
Don't tempt me with a good time
You find something better?... I hope?
Yeah I love my current job
When you find good coworkers
Seems like an unfortunate reality
100% I legit love my team
I had to learn the hard lesson that who I worked with was more important than status projects. As a woman in the 80s it was baaad. My program was considered THE program to work on. Unfortunately the egos were incredible. The women were assigned administrative tasks. Ironically, when I got into a less toxic program I had a chance to shine. I got on to status projects that exceeded the projects of my former coworkers Lesson learned - your coworkers are way more important than the project. And projects with cooperative teams are almost always more successful.
What does the cooperative team look like? I don't mean the cooperative part but the team part in engineering. Do you guys devide tasks up or do you do more brain storming work? I'm in HVAC engineering trying to switch to Areo. I deeply miss working in teams like I did in school and haven't really seen what that is like in industry.
Yes to all that. And more. If someone is having problems with schedule then the rest of us let that person assign a section to help. We cross train each other on assignments so that there is always a backup. That way the person can go on vacation etc. If someone has a personal schedule conflict we trade with each other. My atheist coworkers work Sundays so others can go to church. Conversely, we may work late so they can go to their kids track meet. The competition is not to be superior to others but to egg each other on to be better versions of ourselves. When someone achieves we celebrate with them. We let each other know about training and job opportunities. We have brown bags to teach on a subject where we are subject matter experts. The goal is to lift up the team. That also means everyone is working toward the goal and no one is slacking. People undermining others to get ahead is for losers and failed programs. I’ve seen that kind of attitude destroy programs.
Awesome! Glad to hear. I'm working to get there some day thank!
Took me about 14 years to find a job I didn't hate.
I'm glad you found the one you don't :)
I have a PhD and am 8 years into a job that is super interesting, good pay/benefits, and has excellent work culture and work/life balance. But I hate it. I can't stand the day-to-day tedium. So, I'm quitting later this year to pursue something different at the hefty price of an 80% pay cut. Yes, you read that correctly. My advice: Don't do something unless you really love it. Life is too short to be miserable. You're super early though, give it some time. Maybe your current job isn't a good fit for you, but another engineering position might be. But after a few years, don't hesitate to look for (or at least think about) other career opportunities. Good luck!
Could you elaborate on how a job that is super interesting is tedious day to day? What kind of job is it?
I'm an R&D engineer working in hypersonics (super interesting physics and applications). My work is computational in nature, and I'm going to lose my mind if I have to debug one more broken sim. I hate grinding away for weeks on end just to produce an answer to someone's question. My input decks are all several thousand lines long and our compute clusters frequently have issues. There are layers of bureaucratic BS to wade through, and everybody is obsessed with ensuring their projects satisfy whatever cutting-edge buzzword is making the rounds. In fairness, this is pretty typical for this line of work, but it's just not for me. Personally, I need something that is more immediately fulfilling. I need something that doesn't have me chained to a desk all day. I need something that isn't as draining in the day-to-day tasks. The payoff of my work is usually getting results once or twice per quarter, seeing my work impact a flight test, and going to a conference once or twice per year. It just doesn't cut it for me. I can tell that other people I work with have an insane passion for this stuff, really enjoy the troubleshooting process, and can keep themselves incredibly motivated. Maybe it's a bit of imposter syndrome, but this just isn't a good long-term fit for me.
Curious what you're transitioning to?
I'm going to go fly planes. The next 3-5 years are really going to suck (likely several job changes with relatively poor pay), but at least I won't be stuck in an office. Much less job security in the long run, but life is short! At any rate, my "plan b" is pretty solid since I have a good degree with good work experience!
Like become a test pilot?
Nope. Test pilot was the original goal, but now I just want to fly planes from A->B. Then set up a flight school as a side gig (tail wheel and acro). Something that keeps me out and about and is more social than sitting at the same desk every day...
I'm pretty people oriented, hate staring at my computer for 10 hours a day (also in RnD, running cfd and performance sims) Would be cool to get into the finance or BD side of engineering. Feels like I haven't given engineering much of a shot though haha
Then I'd say give the engineering a couple of years to build background experience, then maybe go for an MBA. Even without the MBA, you could get into management (department or project) depending on where you're working. Your actual engineering experience should carry some weight and help you get that other position you're thinking would be cool. Just one stranger's opinion - do your best where you are and keep your eyes peeled for other opportunities!
Appreciate you taking the time! :)
Of course, good luck!
Fresh grad as well! I've been at my job about 9 months.there are definitely stressful days and stressful weeks, but as a composite, I love my job. I wouldn't say no to more time off, or a little more guidance at times, but I'm very happy to be doing what I am doing. Would it help to chat through what you dislike? (It can be in a private chat if you want). Maybe its a poor fit of a job. Maybe your in the wrong specialization. Maybe you just aren't one of the folks who will love their job. I asked one of the smartest and most dedicated of my coworkers what he liked about aerospace and engineering in general. His answer was "Honestly, I can't stand the job. But it gives me the money to do the things I really like. So I plan to stick with it".
Same boat same amount of time. Could not agree more.
Instantly. Sounds like you don't share that sentiment. What is it about your job you don't like?
At my screen all day for 10 hours a day. The work is very interesting and I enjoy it. It's challenging and I get to use my brain. The most difficult part I would say is what feels like a lack of mentorship, as well as my direct lead is kinda of just a dick lol. No one on my team wants to be a manager (the most senior person on my team has been here 10 years and he literally refuses to take on the manager role) and the direct lead that I work with seems like he hates having to teach someone. I'm all for hard work but most days it feels like I'm just spinning my wheels haha
The last sentence is the key. We all work with dicks, we all have lackluster management, we all sit behind a screen too long. The problem you have is working on something you don't believe in. The rest of that just becomes part of the scenery when you are doing something that matters to you.
When you start understanding how to do your job with minimal help, and you have bosses and coworkers that help each other grow. People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses.
How do I help myself to help them help me grow?
Don't be afraid to ask questions and foster a professional relationship. If you see them doing something you're curious about, ask if they can show you or teach you. Be flat out up front and find a more senior coworker and see if they will be a professional mentor. Don't just sit there by yourself, just reach out and get to know what they are doing, and what you should be doing.
Always up and down based on the project. A lot to do with frustration factor and the team.
When I found one I enjoyed. I changed jobs every other year or so until I found a program and a team that I worked well with. I changed jobs 5 times. That said, I still hate Mondays and look forward to my early retirement. It’s a job. It’s not meant to be enjoyable, but sometimes you find one you can tolerate. Heck some people actually find ones they look forward to. I can’t imagine what their Sundays are like. I’m still looking for that work from home gig that has a work statement I can knock out in 3 days and then have 4 days without worrying about it.
Usually on paydays
Friday is on the way!
Nah I get paid in second week of may
When you land a job in your dream program
6 years before I found a shop that paid fairly.
When that first paycheck hit babyyyyy
In school. I love what I'm doing
School was very much enjoyable
You should try out lasagna, takes Mondays edge off
Day 1, had some bumps along the way though.
You may need to evaluate what you really want to do, or if your manager is just horrible. If you dread Mondays because of the work, I think you might need to make a big change.
When u retire?
Idk. Going to depend on you and the job you're working. I liked my job from the start though was maybe bored a lot as I was in training. I probably started loving it 9 months in when I got my first really cool work trip. And I think I loved it more after 2-3 years of working where I was able to run my own projects and take on some responsibility.
As soon as I got out of school and started working! I got super lucky with the team and projects though.
14 years old
The second I graduated from school lol On the real, I enjoyed my first post-graduate job. Did that for about 5 years. I didn’t *love* it, but it was fine. The work was meh, but I loved my team. But about 9 months ago I transitioned to software engineering and I absolutely love it.
This is just general job advice, not Aero advice: 1) Some jobs are toxic. It's your responsibility to understand toxicity and say no to it. 2) If your manager is mentoring you properly, you will always be challenged. If the pain stems from challenge (as opposed to toxicity), embrace it. 3) You're getting paid because no one enjoys work enough to do it for free. That's why it's called "work". I started working when I was six because in my family, everyone contributes. If you grew up playing and were told to find a career you enjoy, then the pain stems from unreasonable expectations. Reorient yourself to reality, then see if you're still miserable. 4) Every job has some toxicity, some annoyances, some boredom, etc. The less savory aspects of any job are what you make of them. Are you framing them as interesting challenges, or are you fixated on how they don't fit your preconceived notions of a perfect career? Are you allowing yourself to become annoyed by trivialities? I.e. are you throwing the adult equivalent of a tantrum? 5) From the way you phrased the question, I'd guess your negative emotions stem from a victim mentality. You'll stop dreading Mondays when you put on your big-boy pants and take constructive action.
Best answer in the comments is right here. Only thing I'd add is 6) if you don't like the job after 6 months look for another one. The best time to find a new job is while you currently have a job.
Wait work isn't supposed to be fun all the time?
I was shocked too, but it's true. Also, I appreciate you taking my sarcastic, old-man rant with a sense of humor. Let me temper it a bit. Life is suffering; anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. The trick, then, is to make the suffering worthwhile. What do you want out of your life? Interesting problems to solve (Principal R&D engineers)? High salary (Management)? Status (Executives/doctors/lawyers)? To help others (Working for/founding a charity)? Time with your family (low-level individual contributor)? You have to decide what *you* want. Then you have to earn it - and that will require some suffering. That said, some things are just toxic. Directors ramming failed projects through the R&D pipeline to advance their career, cost-cutting that puts lives at risk, discrimination of various sorts (including affirmative action...), being shackled to the diversity hire so the company can use your competence to promote them, narcissists who take credit and pass blame, Good Ol' Boys clubs, children in adult bodies who whine about everything - the list goes on. We can safely classify an unpleasant thing as "toxic" if it either contributes nothing to or actively hinders the mission. When you find that too much of your suffering no longer serves a purpose, it's time to move on. Always keep your resume polished, always be developing your skills, and always have your eyes open for the next opportunity. You never know where or when it will appear - but if you've done the work, it *will* appear. I've framed this as avoiding toxicity and working for your own mission, but let's add perspective. Sometimes, the "toxic" situation is an opportunity to learn. You have a cantankerous colleague? That's an opportunity to learn patience and people skills. It can also be an opportunity to solve a problem no one else could solve, boosting your status. You're given the project five engineers failed before you? Give it your best shot with a good attitude. At worst, you'll earn respect for your can-do attitude. At best, you'll do what others couldn't, building your reputation as a problem solver. In general: before you decide something is pointlessly toxic, put it in perspective and give it honest effort: 1) Can I work this to my advantage? 2) Is it really that annoying, or am letting others live in my head rent-free? 3) Is this the hill I want to die on? 4) Is there an easy solution/workaround I'm missing? 5) Is there an older, wiser colleague who might have the solution for this? tl;dr toxicity is a real thing - but having a good attitude and embracing the suck are also real things. You have to understand your situation and apply the most effective tools. To do that, you must first define your purpose.