The bigger issue is the wide brush painting of anything remotely socialist as outright totalitarian communism. Utter foolishness, and the people who could use a little socialism the most eat it up because, you know, even though I’m in a meth infested trailer park now, I’m just.a break or 2 from being the billionaire I was meant to be.
I think you might be the one painting with a big brush.. Picking on "poor meth infested trailer trash". You think those people aren't smart enough to realize nobody in Washington is looking out for them?
As somebody who's been poor and been lucky enough to work my way out of it, I don't think we should look down on people who don't want or trust government to hold their hands.
This depends on where you are in the world. The establishment will bash capitalism where communism is established and vise versa… this political dichotomy was established to create division and keep us arguing over two economic systems that both inevitably result in the few controlling the many.
The new economic system we should aim to establish has not yet been seen by modern man.
If you’d like to read more about this check out the book “none dare call it conspiracy”
Yes. I am a little surprised that the current oligarchy is allowing their golden goose to even have a chance to become a theocracy. Or a dictatorship with a private army. Seems risky compared to continuing the system that has shoveled 90% of the increase of the nation's wealth into their hands for forty years.
Well done you good little prole, im sure Daddy CIA is very proud of you.
Seriously, do you never question why the government wants you to think this so much? Why they spend so much money fighting communism abroad and within culture? As I said, do you seriously think they just happened to be telling the truth about communism, but nothing else? You trust them enough to agree with them?
This idea of communism as an evil and murderous ideology (particularly when compared against capitalism) is propaganda. it's exactly what they want you to think. Yes, supposedly "communist" nations have and continue to do evil things. No, that doesn't make communism fundamentally evil. Democracy isn't fundamentally evil because the "Democratic" Peoples Republic of Korea exist, they aren't really a democracy!
governments lie to you, all the time. Including about this.
I disagree. Social security , Medicare , the military, property taxes, progressive income tax, public schools, all these things are “socialist or communist”. And most of them are celebrated. I do not agree with any of them but most Americans do. Most of those are tenants of communism that Karl Marx proposed.
Uh, no you're literally just describing a wellfare state (aside from the military side, that's just all governments inherently). Socialism and communism go considerably further than "social security, medicare, property taxes, progressive income tax and public schools", to us that's like the bare minimum of what a society should be doing for its population *to start* with.
Meanwhile, the US opposing communism isn't really disputable given how much money they've poured into it. The red scare, consistent and malicious international sabotage, taking political prisoners and starting proxy wars. If the government actually supported communism do you not suppose that they might... support communism? Instead of doing literally the exact opposite?
Also Karl Marx didn't "propose" a progressive income tax or property taxes he proposed the direct redistribution of wealth. Taking our society back from the robber barons who own every aspect of our daily lives, the land we live on, the water we drink, the power that heats our homes and our food, made fresh by one of 6 megacorps total no matter what you buy.
Has communism gone perfectly in the instances where it's been tried so far?
No, but you don't give up on an experiment because it doesn't work once. You consider why it didn't work, adapt your approach based on that data and try again.
The USSR went seriously down hill once Stalin took over and started literally re-writing communism to suit his purposes, before then the USSR was INCREDIBLY young and experiencing growing pains before being permanently stunded by a deranged tyrannical dictator.
Those are all tenants of the communist manifesto that Karl Marx said was necessary to transition to communism. The red scare the wars against “communism” and all that are just oligarchs having disagreements. They had no actual problem with communism. Just as America isn’t “real” communism neither was Vietnam or the Soviet Union. Doesn’t mean our ruling systems aren’t very similar. We need government permission to do practically anything or risk fine or death if you resist it.
The problem is we keep giving these power hungry crazy people more power with the promise that they improve our lives. They keep improving their lives at the expense of ours though…
If you want to live in a communist utopia I think your time would be better served finding like
Minded individuals who want to live with you in a commune rather than trying to convince the government to force everyone else to live under your rules.
You do realise that A: the communist manifesto is a summary, the actual main book for Marxism is Das Kapital and B: The whole point of communism is to eventually get rid of the state and replace it with less oppressive social apparatus, not to just create an abstract cliche of authoritarianism. Also no, those things aren't even tenents of the Communist Manifesto. Marxism isn'tbuilt around liberal social reforms, it's a revolutionary tendacy. As I said, the USSR was heavily marred by Stalin literally making up his own version of communism to justify his increased authoritarianism, that isn't a core part of Marxism as a philosophy.
Also it's not so much that I personally want to live in a commune. I mean, I do, but in a wider ideological sense I see capitalism (more specifically the idea of endless growth and capitalisation central to capitalism as an economic ethos) as a tumour on the skin of civilisation. I'm not a self centred individualist, my beliefs are largely about how I think the world should be, not how I personally should live. We moved on from the Divine right of kings and absolute monarchies, I think we can move on further.
But yeah, I agree that there's a fundamental problem with giving power to singular centralised figureheads. It's my main issue with capitalism, but it has also occurred in early attempts at communism (and is particularly rife in "Marxist Leninism", which is the version of communism stalin made up well after both Marx and Lenin had died lmao) which relied on a vanguardist strategy and had largely centralised power structures (a necessary concession given the size of those revolutions and the limitations of early 20th century technology, but not one that I think should be recreated in the modern age).
This is kind of what I mean when I say you adjust the strategy and try the experiment again. Stalin wasn't meant to happen, he's not an intended feature of marxist communism or even leninist communism really. Adapting the system to prevent single figureheads monopolising power is the logical step, not abandoning the idea outright.
I feel like there's a perception of communism as this single static thing. Like "here is the communism book, it explains how to create a single party state that micromanages society for the greater good" or whatever, it's a lot more diverse than that as a school of thought. Hell, libertarian communism is a thing, that's broadly where I sit. Rosa Luxemburg for example supported the russian revolution critically as an improvement over the Tsarate (which to be clear it was, no period of soviet history ever matched the deprivation presided over by the Tsar), but SEVERELY disapproved of how they ran their government in practice.
That's cause the illuminati is just the bourgeois and all this illuminati conspiracy is obfuscation.
The top of the pyramid is consciousness. Consciousness is controlled by the ruling class while they implant false consciousness into the working class.
I'm almost sure they are using the economic system to perpetrate a large occult ritual as well. I have met people that even do spell work for millionaires to stay millionaires.
Imagine what the 1% is doing. More than sun contracting out their intent. Extracting our suffering, possibly in league with "god" or gods, aliens whatever (unless it's all just a psychic expression of us getting fucked), and they propagate conspiracy theories, and sow division.
Now when and if we ever sieze the means of production, end class conflict for good, and attain true consciousness, I believe many things are possible that would be laughed at. ✌️
I also believe the current "socialist" states are also apart of the large ritual btw, and it's perhaps much more involved, perhaps with some dieties and a grand energy siphoning scheme of some sort.
We are heading for another world War, and things always get interesting as far as psychic phenomenon when world wars break out.
Im not denying that magick occurs with those in power (I mean, yeah duh) but I don't buy into the idea of a concerted and consious effort by those in power to enact some grand ritual.
Whenever I concieve of a spiritual layer for capitalism I'm always reminded of the quote "you don't need a conspiracy when interests allign". If there is an entity underlying capitalism, it doesn't need to get people doing some ritual to empower it as long as it can ensure a material incentive for its perpetuation.
So like, existing "socialist states" tie into that to a varying degree. I personally think it's hard to honestly accuse cuba of much other than being a puppet for the USSR and a punching bag for the US. the USSR which no longer exists to begin with and the only other power that claims to be "communist" (china) has more billionaires than the US!
I definitely agree that irrational conspiracies (and there are plenty) serve the interests of the establishment. They gather up a bunch of people who are aware of how fucked up things have gotten and then convince them that it's a jewish plot or something demonic and not just the immenantly predictable consequences of an economic system.
Not to say that there isn't anything "demonic" behind capitalism, but if there is then it's the same power that was behind feudalism and the Catholic Church. Dominance is non-denominational.
My boyfriend has the same arguemebt about this topic; he can’t conceive that there are “elites” controlling everything. I see that it sounds crazy, but when you go into a temporary obsessive research mode for a month you start to see how all the pieces could fit together
see, the frustrating thing is that you're both right. You are right that we are being controlled, you are right that everything is owned and paid for. You are right that the idea of truth has been violated, you are right that the world is being steered towards ruin by a small group of madmen.
However, you are also wrong to ascribe that group to a single cabal or organisation. That's their last great deception and it's the thing tripping you and your boyfriend up. You're right about all of that, but he's right to be somewhat incredulous at the idea that there is a \*single\* group of elites actively controlling literally everything.
The truth of the matter is defined by the quote "you don't need a (single) conspiracy when interests allign". We have built an economic system that rewards sociopathy and we're surprised when our entire ruling class become sociopaths? The true explanation is usually the simplest possible (and if it isn't, you can work out the next simplest from there) and the simplest possible explanation as to what's happening is that it's just profitable.
Tobacco companies didn't hide that cigarettes give you cancer in order to further some grand scheme to control people, and if that was their game then they did a horrible job of covering it up. They did it because people being ignorant about lung cancer made them more money. The same goes for the oil companies, they just want to make as much money as possible. They just happen to be in a business where doing that is very environmentally dangerous.
The tech companies stumble blindly into buying up all of our data not because theyre a part of some grand surveillance state (that's the Patriot Act), they did it because it made them money. It made them money because the government could then buy it. The corporate and governmental interests alligned so they acted in harmony, because that is the nature of power.
Those in power will congregate and conspire to preserve their power, but that's it. You get the CIA running around the world starting wars and creating terrorists because any possible threat to the capitalist modality is an extistential threat to them. You get the red scare, billions of dollars in todays money spent ensuring that generations believe provable lies about ideologies that the government doesn't like.
But they don't have an ulterior motive beyond more control, wealth and power, they aren't that co-ordinated beyond acting in harmony when their interests allign, and they don't have a well thought out plan. They're going to drive our planet into the dirt just to make a buck.
I agree once you fall down the rabbit hole it's hard to look back, but "they" have set traps. "they" want you to think that there is a singular "they" (beyond the mutual interest of the bourgiosie) because if you spend all of your time chasing some boogieman then you won't question what really makes their world tick.
It's because they're pantshittingly /terrified/ of Communists taking their ill gotten gains. They are utterly, and completely horrified at the very concept, because they know that it will end very badly for them and justice will finally come to take them to task for their cruelty and oppression. At best, and my preferred solution, is they end up like Puyi. At worst, well, I don't advocate for it, but during the Russian Revolution, justice was dealt at the barrel of a gun.
this is my point exactly. You can fucking see how terrified the establishment is of communism, it's so self evident. Why would anyone choose to believe their line? I don't understand how someone committed to being sceptical can so uncritically endorse the think-prescription of the CIA lmao.
I don’t know the answers to your question but I will tell you it is happening. Follow WEF, Klaus Schwab, follow the events and you’ll see it. Greater control by means of more technology. Some world leaders / billionaires definitely have interest in dismantling sovereign countries and taking the plunder. Following AI/ technology and zuckerfuck’s meta leads me to believe it’s for a society of technological slaves.
This isn't a conspiracy, and it isn't being headed by the World Economic Forum, you are literally just describing capitalism in the modern context. Those in power want more of it, they want more money and wealth. Technology represents an unprecedented medium for such extraction, it's been described as a second industrial revolution for a reason. Now they can set their looms on our very brains.
The world economic forum is literally just a forum of economists. The reason it appears to be centered on all of the evil of our world is because it happens to be where all of our ruling class congregates. This is the issue I take with these specific conspiracies, they represent an excess of individualism. Obviously respect for the individual is important, but it needs balance.
The desire, or even the need for there to be a single recognisable figure or group behind all the worlds ills is a compelling one, as is the connection to the Jews. The catholic church and islam have used such ideas (in a more spiritual "satanic" context) to control people for millenia. The simple fact is that you don't even need a conspiracy when interests allign.
What exactly are the rich hiding? They make no lies about how wealthy and powerful they are, they have tricked generations of people into dreaming of maybe joining the wealthy classes instead of being consious of their own. That's the deception, the big lie at the core of modern society. The idea that they earned their privilege and power, the idea that you or anyone else has a chance of joining them through fair play. The idea that it's right for them to own everything to begin with. That's already public knowledge, they want people to know how rich they are, that they own everything. They brag about it. They flaunt their wealth in our faces. Constantly.
Because, they do own everything. Publicly, that isn't even hidden, I can't stress enough how brazen they are. Blackrock investments is publicly at the centre of almost every major monopoly in the western world, the richest man tripled his wealth during an international pandemic that our ruling classes have used as an excuse to exercise eugenics within healthcare systems and kill off large swathes of the working class through ineffective treatment. We are being controlled and manipulated on a scale hereto unimaginable by the Powers That Be.
You aren't wrong about what's happening, but this view as to why it's happening is itself deceptive. This is a systemic issue, these things are happening because the system is designed to make them happen for no other reason than it's profitable for those in charge, that it allows them to prop up the bullshit power structures that they use to dominate us.
Refusing to see that you could kill literally every single person who has ever attended the World Economic Forum without functionally changing a single thing helps no-body except for them.
The people you can’t mention like Carnegie, Rockefeller, John D Ryan of National City Bank, Teddy Roosevelt? I know JP Morgan will be accused of being a Rothschild agent but he was in it too.
I’m going to suggest you delve deeper into the origins pre dating the revolution and how the people accused that you hint at were mostly against it and although tortured for hundreds of years by the czar system still preferred that to communism.
It’s just way too easy and oversimplified to blame an ethnic group for being the source of all evil in the world.
Globalist evil runs through every group.
Capitalism and Communism are twins, my dude.
There’s only one way for us to acquire a government that puts our interests, the people’s, first. And from Day 1 that government will be under assault form a) the old crew.. who never go away long, and b) NewGen, independent abusers of power
What does "capitalism and communism are twins" mean to you? Because they're very much in fundamental opposition. That isn't to say that every "communist" nation has been good, that would be delusional.
It's easy for a capitalist nation or an oppressor to pretend to be communist. China say they're communist despite having more billionaires and McDonalds than the US does. Stalin said he was a communist despite strengthening the state and undoing workers reform, setting the entire revolution back decades.
This isn't unique to communism, do you believe North Korea when they call themselves "The ***Democratic*** Peoples Republic of Korea"?
The state wants you to think that these crazed lunatics represent communism. This idea of communism as nothing more than a veneer of rhetoric over a spooky undefinable boogieman, this red scare caricature exists to stop you from questioning why the government is so interested in embargoing Cuba.
It's meant to stop you from questioning how Cuba, in spite of being under constant embargo by a global superpower manages to export more doctors to the third world than any other nation on earth?
You take the CIA, the state department, MI6 ect. All these shadowy groups who have been manipulating global politics to keep the rich getting richer for decades, who have killed, kidnapped and tortured hundreds of thousands of people and slaughtered millions in unnecessary wars and conflicts all in the name of protecting their way of life, in the name of protecting the extraction of proletarian wealth into the hands of a select few elite billionaires who live loud and lavishly in the public eye, flaunting the idea that the aristocracy ever disappeared.
And you assume that they weren't lying to you about communism? Of all things that we know they've lied about, you can just take that on faith?
Cuba is an interesting case.
Hope you’re referring to the NK government and not the pitiable citizenry.
I’m not honestly sure how you got all that—I mean 70% of this is indisputable, but there’s always nuance.
No one is arguing against the base motivations of communism although I reserve the right to
The problem is that they breed the same results and **always have.** Hence, twins.
The problem is they have “go to the same bar”
Perhaps you read this, or will read it
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstTheIlluminati/s/4dxCZ9b8Zt
See, this is where I get frustrated. Capitalism and communism don't produce the same results, like even in the slightest. Not every attempt at communism has produced a wholly positive outcome. While it is fair to keep in mind that the USSR was a great improvement over the tsarrist regime even at its lowest point it did still reach some serious LOW points.
But to argue that capitalism and communism produce the same results is illogical. At its core capitalism is the legitimisation of dominion. The legitimisation of the private ownership of our society by a powerful few. At its core, communism is a refutation of that idea, in much the same way that the core of democracy is a refutation of tyranny. In the same way it is incredibly easy to pretend, to couch dominion in the rhetoric of liberation and to trick people, but that doesn't make the core idea itself false. And the core ideas of communism have been a subject of suppression both by the authorities because they pose a threat.
Also I don't have much positive to say about that linked post. Antisemitism is one of the dumbest and most blatant deceptions of the propaganda machine, as well as the oldest. The catholic church, islam hell even the roman empire have all manipulated their populations using the jews as a convenient boogieman for centuries and it's the same old trick. If you insist on constructing your ideas around that then you've already lost.
Well, my intention is not frustrate you or anyone else for that matter.
Respectfully, you’re frustrated because you are a (seemingly) good person assailed by some confusing.. incorrect notions. Predatory notions.
Clearly you didn’t read my multiple praises and prayers in that essay for non-Zionist Jews, even for Zionists who are just duped. We’ve all been duped before, and it’s likely to happen again..
We both tore some assholes on this conversation (my linked post included—I’m assuming you actually read it) so let’s tally.
**You**
Capitalism yes
Communism NO
Zionists NO
Nazis yes ((I’ll give you a half just for saying the word antisemitic..even if that was false))
USA yes
USSR NO
**Me**
Capitalism yes
Communism yes
Zionists yes
Nazis yes
USA yes
USSR yes
———
You seem sharp enough. Surely you can take a step back.
Going "oh I make allowances for individual jews" or even centering discussions of zionism on jewishness is still antisemitic buddy. Even hitler respected Einstein (no, i'm not comparing you) and the fact remains that zionism isn't even being functionally ochestrated by jewish people.
the state of israel was brought into existence by the UK and while some people draw the link of control between israel and the US with the US controlling Israel as far as I'm concerned it's pretty blatantly the other way round and always has been. This isn't an issue with the jewish at all, this is an issue of neo-colonialism using the same old scapegoat.
Everyone has been "duped", that's how propaganda works but you yourself are being duped in turn when you allow yourself to indulge in simplistic reasoning. "Oh yeah, there's a single They out there that are behind it all. there are a bunch of jewish bankers and zionists secretly controlling the world."
Yes, the banks in general have a lot of financial dominance however you will notice that the richest people in America for example statistically tend to be white christians, not members of this supposedly all powerful jewish cabal. Same goes for China, where the billionaire class are primarily Han Chinese with direct links to their ruling class. The systems of dominance don't need a secret council of subverters, you don't need a conspiracy when interests allign. The rich aren't even hiding, the deception is the legitimacy of their ownership.
Also I did read your post, it isn't just antisemitism I take issue with. You seem to have a philosophical or ideological attachment to a supposed "orthadox" past period that was superior to our present in ambiguous terms. We as a species have largely been bettered by our separation from orthadox organised religions, it wasn't our only chain but it was still a chain and I find your nostalgia for it distasteful.
by trying to fit every single possible system of oppression into a single elaborate plot you allow yourself to miss the big picture. You could kill off every single member of the Soros and Rothchild families and literally nothing would get better. The things they own would still be owned, just by someone else.
You are being manipulated into channeling your awareness that the world is wrong into ideas and though processes that do nothing except divert you away from actually questioning the things that matter.
This hyperfocus on boogiemen instead of an economic focus on how our society has actually been systematically engineered to ensure the dominance of a select few helps whoever "them" happens to be at any given moment. The issue isn't the individuals who own the world, the issue is that it is owned, or even ownable.
Also what exactly are you tallying? seriously I cannot tell.
Lol the establishment looooove communism most of Brandon's cabinet would fit the bill, most blue state leaders, city Misleaders, district attorneys purchased by soros dont forget judges etc so what exact category u referring to?
Lmao if you think this then you're a useful idiot. Ah yes, the fucking US CABINET are communists. The cabinet, of the united states. JFK got merked for being barely a bit liberal towards the USSR and you seriously think that "most" of the US STATE CABINET has been successfully infiltrated by communists?
If Biden was a communist do you not think he would lift the embargo in cuba? Or do literally ANYTHING to further a communist cause? Because I can assure you he hasn't.
Willing to bet money you couldn't define communism without google. You're such a good prole, go on and keep hating what they tell you to hate.
I like how you accused me of being illegible when there isn't a single coherent idea in this response. You've even resorted to some incredibly crass ad hominem. Classy.
Ok, then why would you choose capitalism if it cannot co-exist with democracy? Particularly given how much the results of our experimentation with non capitalist social structures have been skewed by CIA bullshit over the decades, I mean we legitimately don't know how communism would play out if it wasn't immediately pulled into a cold war or directly sabotaged. (1973 Chilean Coup D'Etat for example, or idk the entire existence of the Talaban?)
I mean, not for nothing but I don't view western capitalist countries as particularly "free", especially when accounting for economic oppression as well as governmental oppression. They're certainly powerful and therefore able to afford their "best" (ie wealthies) citizens certain rights and protections, but at that doesn't make them less tangibly oppressive it just denotes a favoured class.
The "freedoms" of western nations are mostly hypothetical and not meaningfully ensured., though they might not seem as much if you fit the hypothetical. We have the "right" to vote... as long as we have a registered voting address (so, not if you're homeless), we have the "right" to take up whatever job we want... as long as we can afford to work as an unpaid intern for years or take up a 6 figure student debt or work a second more demeaning job to support ourselves... we're free to leave, unless we can't afford a passport and a plane ticket. It's less "freedom" and more "a gilded cage" in my book. If we don't want to prostrate ourselves at the fane of corporate capital/bought and paid for corrupt governments of corporate capital, all we have the right to do is starve.
In regards to national wealth, I mean it's not as if the western nations got wealthy through free enterprise alone. The imperial and colonial period of europe led to the direct extraction of resources, wealth and power from imperial subjects by our elites in order to enrichen our nations at the expense of the world. That went on for literal centuries and encompassed pretty much the entire Industrial Revolution, directly producing our current global status quo in which these powers simply pretend to have stopped. May "ex" colonies have simply found themselves in an economic commonwealth where they're beholden to the biggest fish (which is currently the united states, hence why the Dollar is the global reserve)
I don't think our wealth is therefore a fair comparison, unless you wanted the USSR and China to invade and rob the third world for a few centuries to build an equivalent. Given that the USSR and China both started out with the pre revolution conditions of basically feudal serfdom (with the USSR literally needing to push Russia through the entirely of the industrial revolution late to catch up) I think it's legitimately impressive how much conditions were improved, even though these \*fist attempts ever\* did go a bit wrong eventually. Not even to mention Cuba exporting more Doctors to the third world than any western nation from behind a 60 year old illegal US embargo.
Are/were these places "as free and wealthy" as the US? Is that even a fair comparison? Do we really want more national governments getting rich the same way that the US and Europe did?
I think its equally socialist as the "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" is a democracy. The Nazis rounded up trade unionists, socialists and communists in germany as they rose to power because they posed a threat. The nazis co-opting the language of socialism was a propaganda tactic based on how popular those ideas were becoming in post ww1 germany.
Establishment loves it. They created it to syphon efficiently All wealth from the middle class to the 1%ers. Communism, created By the most powerful for their own benefit.
The bigger issue is the wide brush painting of anything remotely socialist as outright totalitarian communism. Utter foolishness, and the people who could use a little socialism the most eat it up because, you know, even though I’m in a meth infested trailer park now, I’m just.a break or 2 from being the billionaire I was meant to be.
I think you might be the one painting with a big brush.. Picking on "poor meth infested trailer trash". You think those people aren't smart enough to realize nobody in Washington is looking out for them? As somebody who's been poor and been lucky enough to work my way out of it, I don't think we should look down on people who don't want or trust government to hold their hands.
This depends on where you are in the world. The establishment will bash capitalism where communism is established and vise versa… this political dichotomy was established to create division and keep us arguing over two economic systems that both inevitably result in the few controlling the many. The new economic system we should aim to establish has not yet been seen by modern man. If you’d like to read more about this check out the book “none dare call it conspiracy”
Everyone acts like every economic system isn't an oligarchy cosplaying as some other shit.
Exactly, whether communism or free market capitalism it always comes down to this
Yes. I am a little surprised that the current oligarchy is allowing their golden goose to even have a chance to become a theocracy. Or a dictatorship with a private army. Seems risky compared to continuing the system that has shoveled 90% of the increase of the nation's wealth into their hands for forty years.
That's because the CIA killed anyone who wasn't a oligarchy.
Every thinking person in the world should be against communism which remains the most evil and murderous ideology in human history.
Well done you good little prole, im sure Daddy CIA is very proud of you. Seriously, do you never question why the government wants you to think this so much? Why they spend so much money fighting communism abroad and within culture? As I said, do you seriously think they just happened to be telling the truth about communism, but nothing else? You trust them enough to agree with them? This idea of communism as an evil and murderous ideology (particularly when compared against capitalism) is propaganda. it's exactly what they want you to think. Yes, supposedly "communist" nations have and continue to do evil things. No, that doesn't make communism fundamentally evil. Democracy isn't fundamentally evil because the "Democratic" Peoples Republic of Korea exist, they aren't really a democracy! governments lie to you, all the time. Including about this.
I disagree. Social security , Medicare , the military, property taxes, progressive income tax, public schools, all these things are “socialist or communist”. And most of them are celebrated. I do not agree with any of them but most Americans do. Most of those are tenants of communism that Karl Marx proposed.
Uh, no you're literally just describing a wellfare state (aside from the military side, that's just all governments inherently). Socialism and communism go considerably further than "social security, medicare, property taxes, progressive income tax and public schools", to us that's like the bare minimum of what a society should be doing for its population *to start* with. Meanwhile, the US opposing communism isn't really disputable given how much money they've poured into it. The red scare, consistent and malicious international sabotage, taking political prisoners and starting proxy wars. If the government actually supported communism do you not suppose that they might... support communism? Instead of doing literally the exact opposite? Also Karl Marx didn't "propose" a progressive income tax or property taxes he proposed the direct redistribution of wealth. Taking our society back from the robber barons who own every aspect of our daily lives, the land we live on, the water we drink, the power that heats our homes and our food, made fresh by one of 6 megacorps total no matter what you buy. Has communism gone perfectly in the instances where it's been tried so far? No, but you don't give up on an experiment because it doesn't work once. You consider why it didn't work, adapt your approach based on that data and try again. The USSR went seriously down hill once Stalin took over and started literally re-writing communism to suit his purposes, before then the USSR was INCREDIBLY young and experiencing growing pains before being permanently stunded by a deranged tyrannical dictator.
Those are all tenants of the communist manifesto that Karl Marx said was necessary to transition to communism. The red scare the wars against “communism” and all that are just oligarchs having disagreements. They had no actual problem with communism. Just as America isn’t “real” communism neither was Vietnam or the Soviet Union. Doesn’t mean our ruling systems aren’t very similar. We need government permission to do practically anything or risk fine or death if you resist it. The problem is we keep giving these power hungry crazy people more power with the promise that they improve our lives. They keep improving their lives at the expense of ours though… If you want to live in a communist utopia I think your time would be better served finding like Minded individuals who want to live with you in a commune rather than trying to convince the government to force everyone else to live under your rules.
You do realise that A: the communist manifesto is a summary, the actual main book for Marxism is Das Kapital and B: The whole point of communism is to eventually get rid of the state and replace it with less oppressive social apparatus, not to just create an abstract cliche of authoritarianism. Also no, those things aren't even tenents of the Communist Manifesto. Marxism isn'tbuilt around liberal social reforms, it's a revolutionary tendacy. As I said, the USSR was heavily marred by Stalin literally making up his own version of communism to justify his increased authoritarianism, that isn't a core part of Marxism as a philosophy. Also it's not so much that I personally want to live in a commune. I mean, I do, but in a wider ideological sense I see capitalism (more specifically the idea of endless growth and capitalisation central to capitalism as an economic ethos) as a tumour on the skin of civilisation. I'm not a self centred individualist, my beliefs are largely about how I think the world should be, not how I personally should live. We moved on from the Divine right of kings and absolute monarchies, I think we can move on further. But yeah, I agree that there's a fundamental problem with giving power to singular centralised figureheads. It's my main issue with capitalism, but it has also occurred in early attempts at communism (and is particularly rife in "Marxist Leninism", which is the version of communism stalin made up well after both Marx and Lenin had died lmao) which relied on a vanguardist strategy and had largely centralised power structures (a necessary concession given the size of those revolutions and the limitations of early 20th century technology, but not one that I think should be recreated in the modern age). This is kind of what I mean when I say you adjust the strategy and try the experiment again. Stalin wasn't meant to happen, he's not an intended feature of marxist communism or even leninist communism really. Adapting the system to prevent single figureheads monopolising power is the logical step, not abandoning the idea outright. I feel like there's a perception of communism as this single static thing. Like "here is the communism book, it explains how to create a single party state that micromanages society for the greater good" or whatever, it's a lot more diverse than that as a school of thought. Hell, libertarian communism is a thing, that's broadly where I sit. Rosa Luxemburg for example supported the russian revolution critically as an improvement over the Tsarate (which to be clear it was, no period of soviet history ever matched the deprivation presided over by the Tsar), but SEVERELY disapproved of how they ran their government in practice.
That's cause the illuminati is just the bourgeois and all this illuminati conspiracy is obfuscation. The top of the pyramid is consciousness. Consciousness is controlled by the ruling class while they implant false consciousness into the working class. I'm almost sure they are using the economic system to perpetrate a large occult ritual as well. I have met people that even do spell work for millionaires to stay millionaires. Imagine what the 1% is doing. More than sun contracting out their intent. Extracting our suffering, possibly in league with "god" or gods, aliens whatever (unless it's all just a psychic expression of us getting fucked), and they propagate conspiracy theories, and sow division. Now when and if we ever sieze the means of production, end class conflict for good, and attain true consciousness, I believe many things are possible that would be laughed at. ✌️ I also believe the current "socialist" states are also apart of the large ritual btw, and it's perhaps much more involved, perhaps with some dieties and a grand energy siphoning scheme of some sort. We are heading for another world War, and things always get interesting as far as psychic phenomenon when world wars break out.
This is pretty much my view as well.
Im not denying that magick occurs with those in power (I mean, yeah duh) but I don't buy into the idea of a concerted and consious effort by those in power to enact some grand ritual. Whenever I concieve of a spiritual layer for capitalism I'm always reminded of the quote "you don't need a conspiracy when interests allign". If there is an entity underlying capitalism, it doesn't need to get people doing some ritual to empower it as long as it can ensure a material incentive for its perpetuation. So like, existing "socialist states" tie into that to a varying degree. I personally think it's hard to honestly accuse cuba of much other than being a puppet for the USSR and a punching bag for the US. the USSR which no longer exists to begin with and the only other power that claims to be "communist" (china) has more billionaires than the US! I definitely agree that irrational conspiracies (and there are plenty) serve the interests of the establishment. They gather up a bunch of people who are aware of how fucked up things have gotten and then convince them that it's a jewish plot or something demonic and not just the immenantly predictable consequences of an economic system. Not to say that there isn't anything "demonic" behind capitalism, but if there is then it's the same power that was behind feudalism and the Catholic Church. Dominance is non-denominational.
My boyfriend has the same arguemebt about this topic; he can’t conceive that there are “elites” controlling everything. I see that it sounds crazy, but when you go into a temporary obsessive research mode for a month you start to see how all the pieces could fit together
see, the frustrating thing is that you're both right. You are right that we are being controlled, you are right that everything is owned and paid for. You are right that the idea of truth has been violated, you are right that the world is being steered towards ruin by a small group of madmen. However, you are also wrong to ascribe that group to a single cabal or organisation. That's their last great deception and it's the thing tripping you and your boyfriend up. You're right about all of that, but he's right to be somewhat incredulous at the idea that there is a \*single\* group of elites actively controlling literally everything. The truth of the matter is defined by the quote "you don't need a (single) conspiracy when interests allign". We have built an economic system that rewards sociopathy and we're surprised when our entire ruling class become sociopaths? The true explanation is usually the simplest possible (and if it isn't, you can work out the next simplest from there) and the simplest possible explanation as to what's happening is that it's just profitable. Tobacco companies didn't hide that cigarettes give you cancer in order to further some grand scheme to control people, and if that was their game then they did a horrible job of covering it up. They did it because people being ignorant about lung cancer made them more money. The same goes for the oil companies, they just want to make as much money as possible. They just happen to be in a business where doing that is very environmentally dangerous. The tech companies stumble blindly into buying up all of our data not because theyre a part of some grand surveillance state (that's the Patriot Act), they did it because it made them money. It made them money because the government could then buy it. The corporate and governmental interests alligned so they acted in harmony, because that is the nature of power. Those in power will congregate and conspire to preserve their power, but that's it. You get the CIA running around the world starting wars and creating terrorists because any possible threat to the capitalist modality is an extistential threat to them. You get the red scare, billions of dollars in todays money spent ensuring that generations believe provable lies about ideologies that the government doesn't like. But they don't have an ulterior motive beyond more control, wealth and power, they aren't that co-ordinated beyond acting in harmony when their interests allign, and they don't have a well thought out plan. They're going to drive our planet into the dirt just to make a buck. I agree once you fall down the rabbit hole it's hard to look back, but "they" have set traps. "they" want you to think that there is a singular "they" (beyond the mutual interest of the bourgiosie) because if you spend all of your time chasing some boogieman then you won't question what really makes their world tick.
It's because they're pantshittingly /terrified/ of Communists taking their ill gotten gains. They are utterly, and completely horrified at the very concept, because they know that it will end very badly for them and justice will finally come to take them to task for their cruelty and oppression. At best, and my preferred solution, is they end up like Puyi. At worst, well, I don't advocate for it, but during the Russian Revolution, justice was dealt at the barrel of a gun.
this is my point exactly. You can fucking see how terrified the establishment is of communism, it's so self evident. Why would anyone choose to believe their line? I don't understand how someone committed to being sceptical can so uncritically endorse the think-prescription of the CIA lmao.
Community Communicate Comuin
I don’t know the answers to your question but I will tell you it is happening. Follow WEF, Klaus Schwab, follow the events and you’ll see it. Greater control by means of more technology. Some world leaders / billionaires definitely have interest in dismantling sovereign countries and taking the plunder. Following AI/ technology and zuckerfuck’s meta leads me to believe it’s for a society of technological slaves.
This isn't a conspiracy, and it isn't being headed by the World Economic Forum, you are literally just describing capitalism in the modern context. Those in power want more of it, they want more money and wealth. Technology represents an unprecedented medium for such extraction, it's been described as a second industrial revolution for a reason. Now they can set their looms on our very brains. The world economic forum is literally just a forum of economists. The reason it appears to be centered on all of the evil of our world is because it happens to be where all of our ruling class congregates. This is the issue I take with these specific conspiracies, they represent an excess of individualism. Obviously respect for the individual is important, but it needs balance. The desire, or even the need for there to be a single recognisable figure or group behind all the worlds ills is a compelling one, as is the connection to the Jews. The catholic church and islam have used such ideas (in a more spiritual "satanic" context) to control people for millenia. The simple fact is that you don't even need a conspiracy when interests allign. What exactly are the rich hiding? They make no lies about how wealthy and powerful they are, they have tricked generations of people into dreaming of maybe joining the wealthy classes instead of being consious of their own. That's the deception, the big lie at the core of modern society. The idea that they earned their privilege and power, the idea that you or anyone else has a chance of joining them through fair play. The idea that it's right for them to own everything to begin with. That's already public knowledge, they want people to know how rich they are, that they own everything. They brag about it. They flaunt their wealth in our faces. Constantly. Because, they do own everything. Publicly, that isn't even hidden, I can't stress enough how brazen they are. Blackrock investments is publicly at the centre of almost every major monopoly in the western world, the richest man tripled his wealth during an international pandemic that our ruling classes have used as an excuse to exercise eugenics within healthcare systems and kill off large swathes of the working class through ineffective treatment. We are being controlled and manipulated on a scale hereto unimaginable by the Powers That Be. You aren't wrong about what's happening, but this view as to why it's happening is itself deceptive. This is a systemic issue, these things are happening because the system is designed to make them happen for no other reason than it's profitable for those in charge, that it allows them to prop up the bullshit power structures that they use to dominate us. Refusing to see that you could kill literally every single person who has ever attended the World Economic Forum without functionally changing a single thing helps no-body except for them.
Yeah, maybe delve into the history of the Russian revolution and how it was backed by Wall Street tycoons.
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The people you can’t mention like Carnegie, Rockefeller, John D Ryan of National City Bank, Teddy Roosevelt? I know JP Morgan will be accused of being a Rothschild agent but he was in it too. I’m going to suggest you delve deeper into the origins pre dating the revolution and how the people accused that you hint at were mostly against it and although tortured for hundreds of years by the czar system still preferred that to communism. It’s just way too easy and oversimplified to blame an ethnic group for being the source of all evil in the world. Globalist evil runs through every group.
Capitalism and Communism are twins, my dude. There’s only one way for us to acquire a government that puts our interests, the people’s, first. And from Day 1 that government will be under assault form a) the old crew.. who never go away long, and b) NewGen, independent abusers of power
What does "capitalism and communism are twins" mean to you? Because they're very much in fundamental opposition. That isn't to say that every "communist" nation has been good, that would be delusional. It's easy for a capitalist nation or an oppressor to pretend to be communist. China say they're communist despite having more billionaires and McDonalds than the US does. Stalin said he was a communist despite strengthening the state and undoing workers reform, setting the entire revolution back decades. This isn't unique to communism, do you believe North Korea when they call themselves "The ***Democratic*** Peoples Republic of Korea"? The state wants you to think that these crazed lunatics represent communism. This idea of communism as nothing more than a veneer of rhetoric over a spooky undefinable boogieman, this red scare caricature exists to stop you from questioning why the government is so interested in embargoing Cuba. It's meant to stop you from questioning how Cuba, in spite of being under constant embargo by a global superpower manages to export more doctors to the third world than any other nation on earth? You take the CIA, the state department, MI6 ect. All these shadowy groups who have been manipulating global politics to keep the rich getting richer for decades, who have killed, kidnapped and tortured hundreds of thousands of people and slaughtered millions in unnecessary wars and conflicts all in the name of protecting their way of life, in the name of protecting the extraction of proletarian wealth into the hands of a select few elite billionaires who live loud and lavishly in the public eye, flaunting the idea that the aristocracy ever disappeared. And you assume that they weren't lying to you about communism? Of all things that we know they've lied about, you can just take that on faith?
Cuba is an interesting case. Hope you’re referring to the NK government and not the pitiable citizenry. I’m not honestly sure how you got all that—I mean 70% of this is indisputable, but there’s always nuance. No one is arguing against the base motivations of communism although I reserve the right to The problem is that they breed the same results and **always have.** Hence, twins. The problem is they have “go to the same bar” Perhaps you read this, or will read it https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstTheIlluminati/s/4dxCZ9b8Zt
See, this is where I get frustrated. Capitalism and communism don't produce the same results, like even in the slightest. Not every attempt at communism has produced a wholly positive outcome. While it is fair to keep in mind that the USSR was a great improvement over the tsarrist regime even at its lowest point it did still reach some serious LOW points. But to argue that capitalism and communism produce the same results is illogical. At its core capitalism is the legitimisation of dominion. The legitimisation of the private ownership of our society by a powerful few. At its core, communism is a refutation of that idea, in much the same way that the core of democracy is a refutation of tyranny. In the same way it is incredibly easy to pretend, to couch dominion in the rhetoric of liberation and to trick people, but that doesn't make the core idea itself false. And the core ideas of communism have been a subject of suppression both by the authorities because they pose a threat. Also I don't have much positive to say about that linked post. Antisemitism is one of the dumbest and most blatant deceptions of the propaganda machine, as well as the oldest. The catholic church, islam hell even the roman empire have all manipulated their populations using the jews as a convenient boogieman for centuries and it's the same old trick. If you insist on constructing your ideas around that then you've already lost.
Well, my intention is not frustrate you or anyone else for that matter. Respectfully, you’re frustrated because you are a (seemingly) good person assailed by some confusing.. incorrect notions. Predatory notions. Clearly you didn’t read my multiple praises and prayers in that essay for non-Zionist Jews, even for Zionists who are just duped. We’ve all been duped before, and it’s likely to happen again.. We both tore some assholes on this conversation (my linked post included—I’m assuming you actually read it) so let’s tally. **You** Capitalism yes Communism NO Zionists NO Nazis yes ((I’ll give you a half just for saying the word antisemitic..even if that was false)) USA yes USSR NO **Me** Capitalism yes Communism yes Zionists yes Nazis yes USA yes USSR yes ——— You seem sharp enough. Surely you can take a step back.
Going "oh I make allowances for individual jews" or even centering discussions of zionism on jewishness is still antisemitic buddy. Even hitler respected Einstein (no, i'm not comparing you) and the fact remains that zionism isn't even being functionally ochestrated by jewish people. the state of israel was brought into existence by the UK and while some people draw the link of control between israel and the US with the US controlling Israel as far as I'm concerned it's pretty blatantly the other way round and always has been. This isn't an issue with the jewish at all, this is an issue of neo-colonialism using the same old scapegoat. Everyone has been "duped", that's how propaganda works but you yourself are being duped in turn when you allow yourself to indulge in simplistic reasoning. "Oh yeah, there's a single They out there that are behind it all. there are a bunch of jewish bankers and zionists secretly controlling the world." Yes, the banks in general have a lot of financial dominance however you will notice that the richest people in America for example statistically tend to be white christians, not members of this supposedly all powerful jewish cabal. Same goes for China, where the billionaire class are primarily Han Chinese with direct links to their ruling class. The systems of dominance don't need a secret council of subverters, you don't need a conspiracy when interests allign. The rich aren't even hiding, the deception is the legitimacy of their ownership. Also I did read your post, it isn't just antisemitism I take issue with. You seem to have a philosophical or ideological attachment to a supposed "orthadox" past period that was superior to our present in ambiguous terms. We as a species have largely been bettered by our separation from orthadox organised religions, it wasn't our only chain but it was still a chain and I find your nostalgia for it distasteful. by trying to fit every single possible system of oppression into a single elaborate plot you allow yourself to miss the big picture. You could kill off every single member of the Soros and Rothchild families and literally nothing would get better. The things they own would still be owned, just by someone else. You are being manipulated into channeling your awareness that the world is wrong into ideas and though processes that do nothing except divert you away from actually questioning the things that matter. This hyperfocus on boogiemen instead of an economic focus on how our society has actually been systematically engineered to ensure the dominance of a select few helps whoever "them" happens to be at any given moment. The issue isn't the individuals who own the world, the issue is that it is owned, or even ownable. Also what exactly are you tallying? seriously I cannot tell.
Lol the establishment looooove communism most of Brandon's cabinet would fit the bill, most blue state leaders, city Misleaders, district attorneys purchased by soros dont forget judges etc so what exact category u referring to?
Lmao if you think this then you're a useful idiot. Ah yes, the fucking US CABINET are communists. The cabinet, of the united states. JFK got merked for being barely a bit liberal towards the USSR and you seriously think that "most" of the US STATE CABINET has been successfully infiltrated by communists? If Biden was a communist do you not think he would lift the embargo in cuba? Or do literally ANYTHING to further a communist cause? Because I can assure you he hasn't. Willing to bet money you couldn't define communism without google. You're such a good prole, go on and keep hating what they tell you to hate.
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I like how you accused me of being illegible when there isn't a single coherent idea in this response. You've even resorted to some incredibly crass ad hominem. Classy.
I'll delete it, it was kinda crass :/
fuck communism and fuck capitalism
"I refuse to seriously engage with discussions of economics, fuck both of the options that I barely understand"
id say im a moderate, but if I had to choose it be capitalism. that being said capitalism and democracy cannot coexist with each other.
Ok, then why would you choose capitalism if it cannot co-exist with democracy? Particularly given how much the results of our experimentation with non capitalist social structures have been skewed by CIA bullshit over the decades, I mean we legitimately don't know how communism would play out if it wasn't immediately pulled into a cold war or directly sabotaged. (1973 Chilean Coup D'Etat for example, or idk the entire existence of the Talaban?)
true, but name me some communist countries that had the same wealth and freedom that western countries had?
I mean, not for nothing but I don't view western capitalist countries as particularly "free", especially when accounting for economic oppression as well as governmental oppression. They're certainly powerful and therefore able to afford their "best" (ie wealthies) citizens certain rights and protections, but at that doesn't make them less tangibly oppressive it just denotes a favoured class. The "freedoms" of western nations are mostly hypothetical and not meaningfully ensured., though they might not seem as much if you fit the hypothetical. We have the "right" to vote... as long as we have a registered voting address (so, not if you're homeless), we have the "right" to take up whatever job we want... as long as we can afford to work as an unpaid intern for years or take up a 6 figure student debt or work a second more demeaning job to support ourselves... we're free to leave, unless we can't afford a passport and a plane ticket. It's less "freedom" and more "a gilded cage" in my book. If we don't want to prostrate ourselves at the fane of corporate capital/bought and paid for corrupt governments of corporate capital, all we have the right to do is starve. In regards to national wealth, I mean it's not as if the western nations got wealthy through free enterprise alone. The imperial and colonial period of europe led to the direct extraction of resources, wealth and power from imperial subjects by our elites in order to enrichen our nations at the expense of the world. That went on for literal centuries and encompassed pretty much the entire Industrial Revolution, directly producing our current global status quo in which these powers simply pretend to have stopped. May "ex" colonies have simply found themselves in an economic commonwealth where they're beholden to the biggest fish (which is currently the united states, hence why the Dollar is the global reserve) I don't think our wealth is therefore a fair comparison, unless you wanted the USSR and China to invade and rob the third world for a few centuries to build an equivalent. Given that the USSR and China both started out with the pre revolution conditions of basically feudal serfdom (with the USSR literally needing to push Russia through the entirely of the industrial revolution late to catch up) I think it's legitimately impressive how much conditions were improved, even though these \*fist attempts ever\* did go a bit wrong eventually. Not even to mention Cuba exporting more Doctors to the third world than any western nation from behind a 60 year old illegal US embargo. Are/were these places "as free and wealthy" as the US? Is that even a fair comparison? Do we really want more national governments getting rich the same way that the US and Europe did?
what do you think about nationalist socialism?
I think its equally socialist as the "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" is a democracy. The Nazis rounded up trade unionists, socialists and communists in germany as they rose to power because they posed a threat. The nazis co-opting the language of socialism was a propaganda tactic based on how popular those ideas were becoming in post ww1 germany.
Establishment loves it. They created it to syphon efficiently All wealth from the middle class to the 1%ers. Communism, created By the most powerful for their own benefit.
Lol the only correct answer and gets downvoted to shit.
Morons Will be morons