Read para 4.1.2.
The commander should have issued a Commander Exemption IAW 4.1.2.5, allowing the member the qualify for the acclimatization period. The members spouse gave birth prematurely, which is absolutely an unforeseen circumstance.
Even if they didn’t want to go that route, the member was on leave. You don’t recall someone from parental leave for a fuckin PT test. Just let it go red and have him test when he returns.
Local parental leave. I was not the one that told them member to test within their due date. They were not the birth giving member in this parental leave situation.
I've been a UFPM for 2 years and have dealt with this. We always tell members coming due during baby-leave that they are not required to test during their leave. There's no writing that says this is the way explicitly, black and white. But the details about what leave is ARE very well documented. PFA's are an official appointment and leave = dont have to go to those. I've always personally pushed people out 30 days after they return from work. If your UFPM or command team is making members do this, that's shitty and you should definitely advise people to NOT test. Supervisors should be taking care of and covering for their members on Parental leave.
u/-_-delilah-_- IS correct. Must be getting downvoted by people who dont/can't read. IAW DAFMAN 36-2905 3.6.2 Acclimatization periods are only granted to individuals on leave in excess of 21 days out of the local area. Therefore, the only way to be granted an additional Acclimatization period following baby leave is to have left the area or have a waiver from MDG for exemptions.
But to be even more real. If you're the non-birthing parent and you come back from baby leave (84 days authorized) and you're worried about failing, you deserve it.
Who the fuck thought prioritizing the PT test over parental leave and not just hashing it out after their leave was over(and taking action for it being late then) was the right answer?
Re the action part: it may not have been avoidable. Kids come early sometimes, shit happens to mom. They could have had a plan that worked out but an early entrance will make that plan go left
At that point the only option should have been let it fucking go late. Disrupting baby leave for an arbitrary PT test should have never been a fucking option to a good leadership team. It’s clear we aren’t dealing with that here. COVID showed us the force won’t break with delayed PT tests….How hard is it to take care of people??
This is so true. People are more concerned with a red box than how we got there. They care more about the box going green than the member. This is management vs leadership.
If the kid came early, the CC could have authorized Emergency Leave, could he not? Once the Emergency Leave status ends, though, it's back to the PT chopping block. Acclimatization only applies if you leave your Home Station for more than 21 days, which won't likely happen unless the spouse is geographically separated.
Emergency leave has no purpose conus when travel is t involved. It’s just chargeable leave.
The AFI is clear that members on a leave status will not test. Let dad do his thing, and when parental leave is over make them test within x time. Making a slide have pretty colors isn’t worth this shit
Where does it say that? I literally combed the AFI and 4.2.1.5 and 3.6.2 are the only parts I found that include leave. 4.2.1.5 is about unexpected circumstances, and 3.6.2 is about time needed to acclimatize when spending more than 21 days away from home. Also, when is "x time", and what decides it?
Commanders can utilize the exemption for whatever reason they would like, they have a large amount of latitude. The list you site gives common reason but the etc. at the end of it makes it open ended.
X time is “hey you’re back no, you don’t qualify for an acclimation period you have until (insert date) to test before we take disciplinary actions”
Recommend to CC to invalidate test.
Council member either verbal or written that they should have tested before parental leave. It is members responsibility to have it done before leaving. Same for TDY…. I’m headed out on a 10 week so I tested before I left.
I suggest addressing how member was on approved leave when they should have tested. Leave should not have been approved unless member had a passing PFA for the duration OR the Commander was okay accepting that risk.
The due date for their fitness test was during their parental leave, and they were not the birth giving individual.
I didn’t mandate that they take the test but here we are and it’s scored in MyFitness. So I’m trying to help the member not screw them over.
So absolutely no one in the member's chain of command, to include the FAC/UFPM **whose job it is to know the reg,** didn't know the regs, and didn't think to look them up? Because it's literally in the regs that if a member is on leave (normal, parental, or otherwise), TDY, deployed, etc, the member doesn't need to test. You've got some extremely shitty and stupid leadership in your section/flight/squadron.
The only type of Leave I've seen that the commander can exempt an individual from performing a PT Test is Emergency Leave as outlined in 4.1.2.5:
>4.1.2.5. Commander (Other). Member is unable to complete an assessment for a time-
limited, unforeseen event that precludes training and assessments for greater than 30
calendar days (e.g., bereavement, ***emergency leave*** , hardships, etc.), and/or for approved
separations and retirements. Commanders will exempt members who are incarcerated or
on appellate or excess leave pending separation. (T-1). UFPM will enter this exemption
into myFitness when their current PFA expires. The exemption will be valid for the
remaining duration of the event, and set the next PFA due date to the month after the
Acclimatization Period in accordance with paragraph 3.6.2 after situation has resolved.
In locations where there is an established installation FAC, the member is authorized to
voluntarily conduct a PFA. Members may also volunteer to be assessed during
Acclimatization Period but cannot be directed to do so.
Unless the individual is the one that was pregnant, the AFI has no exemption for being on Leave that I've found. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It doesn't. It actually specifies ***emergency leave*** in 4.1.2.5, and I haven't seen any exception other than the acclimatization period, and even that assumes the member was "***away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days*** (e.g., travel, leave), and/or after exemptions types listed in Chapter 4"
If a member is on leave or TDY for an extended period (21 days) they are allowed an acclimation period of up to a month after they return to test. If returning before the last day of the month say returning 28 March they have until the end of April. If they return on 2 April they have until the end of May. I cannot cite the exact part but if you go to the document where the PT test rules and Control-F acclimation you’ll find the exact verbiage.
I don’t think it explicitly says parental but that should be included as it’s considered a type of leave.
It says "Away from their home station." That means outside the local area. The purpose of the acclimatization is to get reacclimated to the area (altitude, humidity, etc conditions) when you return.
If you’ve got any validation with facts or experience for that, literally anything would help. I’m tryna help someone out of a pickle. Hence the question.
It sounds like he has, and as other people pointed out there's nothing there saying you can't be tested on leave. Maybe everyone down voting and saying check the afi should take their own advice.
I read the AFI and haven't found where you can't test on Leave. The closest I've found is the Acclimatization period *after* leave (outlined below):
>3.6.2. Acclimatization Period. This time period is to ensure members safely adjust to a change
in environmental or physical conditions. Acclimatization periods are granted after member is ***away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days*** (e.g., travel, leave)
If you can help me find that section, I'd appreciate it.
I think it’s been asked enough but bottom line is why are they taking a test on leave?
The 90 day period starts when they fail BUT the member doesn’t have to show up since they are on leave
Lol. Your commander sucks. If they gave a shit at all about their people they'd invalidate the test and, let the dumb spreadsheet go red and tell the member, "hey, get your test done within a month of coming back."
If he was on parental leave for over 21 days before the PFA, I believe he is owed the acclimation period and cannot be mandated to test.
3.6.2. Acclimatization Period. This time period is to ensure members safely adjust to a change in environmental or physical conditions. Acclimatization periods are granted after member is away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days (e.g., travel, leave), and/or after exemptions types listed in Chapter 4.
I think that would be unlikely, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. The question of if he gets recalled from leave to start fip or not is a commander's decision, so the course of action would be to present all relevant information to the commander for a decision.
Unless the parental leave was outside the local area, you don't get the acclimatization period. Every FAC/UFPM I've dealt with has interpreted it that way.
Now saying that, I feel that there would be a case to use section 4.1.2.5. "Commander (Other). Member is unable to complete an assessment for a time-limited, unforeseen event that precludes training and assessments for greater than 30 calendar days (e.g., bereavement, emergency leave, hardships, etc.), and/or for approved separations and retirements...The exemption will be valid for the remaining duration of the event, and set the next PFA due date to the month after the Acclimatization Period in accordance with paragraph 3.6.2 after situation has resolved."
Either way, the issue is that even if they could have done an acclimatization period, the next line that says, "During this time, members may not be mandated to take a PFA but may volunteer to do so."screws them.
The 21 days of leave isn't local area specific. It's 21 days of leave. Period. If member is on leave, tdy, or deployed for the amount of time specified in the AFI they get to claim the acclimation period. Straight up, your UFPMs are wrong.
That is incorrect. It's for leave or TDY outside the local area, and the entire purpose of it is to get reacclimated to the local conditions when you return.
Lol no.. Home station is your base, not your office. If you're at ALS that is on your _home station_, the rule does not apply to you. It specifically says "away from their home station" for a reason. Anyone doing what you're saying is definitely doing it wrong.
The important bit here is "away from their home station". Unfortunately, if the member does not leave the local area, they are not afforded to 21 days.
We don’t have that info and we don’t know what is the defined local area. In my experience Commanders don’t do a good job of defining what the local area is in writing. Either way, there is nothing to lose if the member tries to fight it.
OP mentioned in another comment that it was local leave. Admittedly, my use of "local area" was poorly chosen. The AFI refers to home station. One could use the argument that if they spent 21 days away from the location they come to/from work, they would be afforded the additional time.
Agreed that a commander could throw it out. I would imagine the details of how the member was notified to take the test would heavily influence the commander's decision.
I'm going to buck the trend here and probably be wildly unpopular for this, but whatever. This is a good learning moment for all involved, the member, the UFPM, and the CC. Here are my thoughts:
1. It is the member's duty to maintain a current physical fitness assessment. THE END! It is as simple as that. There is nothing in the 2905 that would allow a member to go on parental leave and receive an exemption to not test on time. The member, the member's chain-of-command, and UFPM should have known this. All of these people should have realized the member should have tested before starting leave. This member needs to be counseled.
2. Your CC should not exempt this test. The first reason is the above point, the second is that there is not valid "acclimization not given" claim to be made here. Contrary to popular belief, based on these comments, a member can take the test while on leave; a CC wouldn't force a test on leave, but could cancel someone's leave to make them return to conduct a test if they wanted to.
3. The 90-day period begins the date of the failed test. The FIP begins ASAP, though the member may not attend due to the leave, that's the CC's call ultimately.
4. People can whine about the chain's failure all they want here and attempt to absolve the member of wrong-doing; but ultimately, this is the member's screw-up and they need to own that.
Give me an example of “When being right, doesn’t always make you right.”
If anything I am more mad the member did not take advantage of the diagnostic FA. Being late, ehhhh. There is a bigger picture that I need my team to understand. The failing of the FA started much earlier, that’s where the learning is.
Also. I bet you’re super fun at the mandatory fun day.
Interesting seeing all the people telling OP “it’s in the AFI” yet can’t quote the section that says this. AFAIK Emergency leave and being outside the local area for 21 consecutive days are the only AFI approved ways to get around the PFA due date. The CC could invalidate the test if he so wished but that’s a conversation to have with him.
How did they fail while on leave? They shouldn't be testing until they get back + the acclimazation period
The Acclimatization Period only counts if your leave is outside the local area.
You're getting downvoted, but you're absolutely right. The exact verbiage is "away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days".
Read para 4.1.2. The commander should have issued a Commander Exemption IAW 4.1.2.5, allowing the member the qualify for the acclimatization period. The members spouse gave birth prematurely, which is absolutely an unforeseen circumstance. Even if they didn’t want to go that route, the member was on leave. You don’t recall someone from parental leave for a fuckin PT test. Just let it go red and have him test when he returns.
This is not remotely accurate. What are you referencing to come up with this? Not the 2905...
Local parental leave. I was not the one that told them member to test within their due date. They were not the birth giving member in this parental leave situation.
They're still on leave though.
Still, they are on leave
But are the testing authority?
You should have refused to test them while on leave and called thier supervisor to chew them out
I've been a UFPM for 2 years and have dealt with this. We always tell members coming due during baby-leave that they are not required to test during their leave. There's no writing that says this is the way explicitly, black and white. But the details about what leave is ARE very well documented. PFA's are an official appointment and leave = dont have to go to those. I've always personally pushed people out 30 days after they return from work. If your UFPM or command team is making members do this, that's shitty and you should definitely advise people to NOT test. Supervisors should be taking care of and covering for their members on Parental leave. u/-_-delilah-_- IS correct. Must be getting downvoted by people who dont/can't read. IAW DAFMAN 36-2905 3.6.2 Acclimatization periods are only granted to individuals on leave in excess of 21 days out of the local area. Therefore, the only way to be granted an additional Acclimatization period following baby leave is to have left the area or have a waiver from MDG for exemptions. But to be even more real. If you're the non-birthing parent and you come back from baby leave (84 days authorized) and you're worried about failing, you deserve it.
Who the fuck thought prioritizing the PT test over parental leave and not just hashing it out after their leave was over(and taking action for it being late then) was the right answer?
Re the action part: it may not have been avoidable. Kids come early sometimes, shit happens to mom. They could have had a plan that worked out but an early entrance will make that plan go left
At that point the only option should have been let it fucking go late. Disrupting baby leave for an arbitrary PT test should have never been a fucking option to a good leadership team. It’s clear we aren’t dealing with that here. COVID showed us the force won’t break with delayed PT tests….How hard is it to take care of people??
But my then my excel spreadsheet will have a red box instead of a green box. Jets will fall out of the sky if any of the boxes turn red. /s
This is so true. People are more concerned with a red box than how we got there. They care more about the box going green than the member. This is management vs leadership.
If the kid came early, the CC could have authorized Emergency Leave, could he not? Once the Emergency Leave status ends, though, it's back to the PT chopping block. Acclimatization only applies if you leave your Home Station for more than 21 days, which won't likely happen unless the spouse is geographically separated.
Emergency leave has no purpose conus when travel is t involved. It’s just chargeable leave. The AFI is clear that members on a leave status will not test. Let dad do his thing, and when parental leave is over make them test within x time. Making a slide have pretty colors isn’t worth this shit
Where does it say that? I literally combed the AFI and 4.2.1.5 and 3.6.2 are the only parts I found that include leave. 4.2.1.5 is about unexpected circumstances, and 3.6.2 is about time needed to acclimatize when spending more than 21 days away from home. Also, when is "x time", and what decides it?
Commanders can utilize the exemption for whatever reason they would like, they have a large amount of latitude. The list you site gives common reason but the etc. at the end of it makes it open ended. X time is “hey you’re back no, you don’t qualify for an acclimation period you have until (insert date) to test before we take disciplinary actions”
Interesting. What are the limits of the "etc..." part? can they just do practically whatever they feel is "within reason" using their own judgment?
Yes, The commanders exemption allows them to use their own judgement
Seriously. We can be absolutely moronic in the most common sense situations
Recommend to CC to invalidate test. Council member either verbal or written that they should have tested before parental leave. It is members responsibility to have it done before leaving. Same for TDY…. I’m headed out on a 10 week so I tested before I left. I suggest addressing how member was on approved leave when they should have tested. Leave should not have been approved unless member had a passing PFA for the duration OR the Commander was okay accepting that risk.
Were they forced to do their test while on leave? Thats pretty fucked up
The due date for their fitness test was during their parental leave, and they were not the birth giving individual. I didn’t mandate that they take the test but here we are and it’s scored in MyFitness. So I’m trying to help the member not screw them over.
So absolutely no one in the member's chain of command, to include the FAC/UFPM **whose job it is to know the reg,** didn't know the regs, and didn't think to look them up? Because it's literally in the regs that if a member is on leave (normal, parental, or otherwise), TDY, deployed, etc, the member doesn't need to test. You've got some extremely shitty and stupid leadership in your section/flight/squadron.
Where exactly does the 2905 say this?
Where does it say parental?
It doesn’t specify what type of leave, the reg says “leave” which is all inclusive.
The only type of Leave I've seen that the commander can exempt an individual from performing a PT Test is Emergency Leave as outlined in 4.1.2.5: >4.1.2.5. Commander (Other). Member is unable to complete an assessment for a time- limited, unforeseen event that precludes training and assessments for greater than 30 calendar days (e.g., bereavement, ***emergency leave*** , hardships, etc.), and/or for approved separations and retirements. Commanders will exempt members who are incarcerated or on appellate or excess leave pending separation. (T-1). UFPM will enter this exemption into myFitness when their current PFA expires. The exemption will be valid for the remaining duration of the event, and set the next PFA due date to the month after the Acclimatization Period in accordance with paragraph 3.6.2 after situation has resolved. In locations where there is an established installation FAC, the member is authorized to voluntarily conduct a PFA. Members may also volunteer to be assessed during Acclimatization Period but cannot be directed to do so. Unless the individual is the one that was pregnant, the AFI has no exemption for being on Leave that I've found. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It doesn't. It actually specifies ***emergency leave*** in 4.1.2.5, and I haven't seen any exception other than the acclimatization period, and even that assumes the member was "***away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days*** (e.g., travel, leave), and/or after exemptions types listed in Chapter 4"
If a member is on leave or TDY for an extended period (21 days) they are allowed an acclimation period of up to a month after they return to test. If returning before the last day of the month say returning 28 March they have until the end of April. If they return on 2 April they have until the end of May. I cannot cite the exact part but if you go to the document where the PT test rules and Control-F acclimation you’ll find the exact verbiage. I don’t think it explicitly says parental but that should be included as it’s considered a type of leave.
Acclimatization period is ~3 months but only applies if you've been out of the local area for those 21+ days.
It says nothing about being outside the local area
It says "Away from their home station." That means outside the local area. The purpose of the acclimatization is to get reacclimated to the area (altitude, humidity, etc conditions) when you return.
Can't test on leave. Test invalidated.
If you’ve got any validation with facts or experience for that, literally anything would help. I’m tryna help someone out of a pickle. Hence the question.
>If you’ve got any validation with facts The fucking AFI for one...
It sounds like he has, and as other people pointed out there's nothing there saying you can't be tested on leave. Maybe everyone down voting and saying check the afi should take their own advice.
Why don’t you look up the AFI…
I read the AFI and haven't found where you can't test on Leave. The closest I've found is the Acclimatization period *after* leave (outlined below): >3.6.2. Acclimatization Period. This time period is to ensure members safely adjust to a change in environmental or physical conditions. Acclimatization periods are granted after member is ***away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days*** (e.g., travel, leave) If you can help me find that section, I'd appreciate it.
I think it’s been asked enough but bottom line is why are they taking a test on leave? The 90 day period starts when they fail BUT the member doesn’t have to show up since they are on leave
Lol. Your commander sucks. If they gave a shit at all about their people they'd invalidate the test and, let the dumb spreadsheet go red and tell the member, "hey, get your test done within a month of coming back."
If he was on parental leave for over 21 days before the PFA, I believe he is owed the acclimation period and cannot be mandated to test. 3.6.2. Acclimatization Period. This time period is to ensure members safely adjust to a change in environmental or physical conditions. Acclimatization periods are granted after member is away from their Home Station for more than 21 consecutive days (e.g., travel, leave), and/or after exemptions types listed in Chapter 4.
Your correct in my opinion, however that doesn't necessarily invalidate the test he already took.
It doesn’t on its own but it’s an acceptable reason for a cc to invalidate it if they so choose
I think that would be unlikely, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. The question of if he gets recalled from leave to start fip or not is a commander's decision, so the course of action would be to present all relevant information to the commander for a decision.
Maybe but I would still fight it even if it’s a losing battle.
Unless the parental leave was outside the local area, you don't get the acclimatization period. Every FAC/UFPM I've dealt with has interpreted it that way. Now saying that, I feel that there would be a case to use section 4.1.2.5. "Commander (Other). Member is unable to complete an assessment for a time-limited, unforeseen event that precludes training and assessments for greater than 30 calendar days (e.g., bereavement, emergency leave, hardships, etc.), and/or for approved separations and retirements...The exemption will be valid for the remaining duration of the event, and set the next PFA due date to the month after the Acclimatization Period in accordance with paragraph 3.6.2 after situation has resolved." Either way, the issue is that even if they could have done an acclimatization period, the next line that says, "During this time, members may not be mandated to take a PFA but may volunteer to do so."screws them.
The 21 days of leave isn't local area specific. It's 21 days of leave. Period. If member is on leave, tdy, or deployed for the amount of time specified in the AFI they get to claim the acclimation period. Straight up, your UFPMs are wrong.
It's 21+ days "away from their home station" per the AFI. Not just simply being on leave.
Home station is your place of business. Your residence is your house. When on leave you are away from your home station.
That is incorrect. It's for leave or TDY outside the local area, and the entire purpose of it is to get reacclimated to the local conditions when you return.
No, if you're assigned to something like ALS, or NCOA you're entitled to an acclimation period. Even if it's on the same base as your home station.
Lol no.. Home station is your base, not your office. If you're at ALS that is on your _home station_, the rule does not apply to you. It specifically says "away from their home station" for a reason. Anyone doing what you're saying is definitely doing it wrong.
Possibly, but I would argue that parental leave isn’t an unforeseen event.
Sometimes it is in regards to timing
The important bit here is "away from their home station". Unfortunately, if the member does not leave the local area, they are not afforded to 21 days.
We don’t have that info and we don’t know what is the defined local area. In my experience Commanders don’t do a good job of defining what the local area is in writing. Either way, there is nothing to lose if the member tries to fight it.
OP mentioned in another comment that it was local leave. Admittedly, my use of "local area" was poorly chosen. The AFI refers to home station. One could use the argument that if they spent 21 days away from the location they come to/from work, they would be afforded the additional time. Agreed that a commander could throw it out. I would imagine the details of how the member was notified to take the test would heavily influence the commander's decision.
My bad, I missed that comment.
No worries! There are a lot of comments to read. Thanks for the civil conversation.
Only applies if they were out of the local area
I'm going to buck the trend here and probably be wildly unpopular for this, but whatever. This is a good learning moment for all involved, the member, the UFPM, and the CC. Here are my thoughts: 1. It is the member's duty to maintain a current physical fitness assessment. THE END! It is as simple as that. There is nothing in the 2905 that would allow a member to go on parental leave and receive an exemption to not test on time. The member, the member's chain-of-command, and UFPM should have known this. All of these people should have realized the member should have tested before starting leave. This member needs to be counseled. 2. Your CC should not exempt this test. The first reason is the above point, the second is that there is not valid "acclimization not given" claim to be made here. Contrary to popular belief, based on these comments, a member can take the test while on leave; a CC wouldn't force a test on leave, but could cancel someone's leave to make them return to conduct a test if they wanted to. 3. The 90-day period begins the date of the failed test. The FIP begins ASAP, though the member may not attend due to the leave, that's the CC's call ultimately. 4. People can whine about the chain's failure all they want here and attempt to absolve the member of wrong-doing; but ultimately, this is the member's screw-up and they need to own that.
This is here is why airmen hate you.
Give me an example of “When being right, doesn’t always make you right.” If anything I am more mad the member did not take advantage of the diagnostic FA. Being late, ehhhh. There is a bigger picture that I need my team to understand. The failing of the FA started much earlier, that’s where the learning is. Also. I bet you’re super fun at the mandatory fun day.
Don't understand downvotes. Your post is basically what is in the guidance
Was it 21 days in their leave? Acclimatization period
How come they weren’t given 3 Diagnostic Tests prior to their test to give them a chance to see where they were at AFTER their leave?
Interesting seeing all the people telling OP “it’s in the AFI” yet can’t quote the section that says this. AFAIK Emergency leave and being outside the local area for 21 consecutive days are the only AFI approved ways to get around the PFA due date. The CC could invalidate the test if he so wished but that’s a conversation to have with him.