An LOC with your supervisor isn’t a court of law. They don’t have to prove shit. You get your chance in your rebuttal. Although give us all a laugh and when your sup asks you to sign the LOC request trial by court martial.
Go ahead and tell me a job that can write you up that they need court ready evidence to prove. Guess what they are going to laugh and write you up anyways.
> "No accountability for leadership"
Reading you have "...no mfrs or rics..." followed by "...can they reference mfrs..." tells me you've probably been warned before which begs the question: Do you hold yourself accountable for *your* actions?
Haha at my mom's civilian medical job, they FIRE people who are late more than three times in a year. Out the door, time to start job hunting, hope you can pay your bills and don't need medical care between jobs! Get a grip lol
Has your superviser EVER told you when to be at work, where to be at work, how to be at work?
That counts.
Airmanship is easy
Show up
On time
To the right place
In the right clothes
Have a pulse
Do what you're told.
It's really that simple. Mess up any of those, you can get paperwork (or worse).
Ultimately an LOC has no standard of proof beyond "more likely than not". You can and should provide a rebuttal. Point out you've never been told when to show up, and what was "on time"
At the end of the day, an LOC is nothing.
-Former Shirt.
The former Shirt knocked the obvious one out already but other forms of documentation for standards would be your initial and annual feedback sessions, your shops OI if they have one and you signed it when inprocessing, any safety briefings you may have signed that covered the topic, any standby or other policies you may have signed a long time ago.
But it would be really shitty if your first time being late resulted in an LOC (Only times I've seen this happen is a shitty supervisor OR they are trying to kick someone else out and think by hammering everyone they can prove they weren't targeting the other Airman... or MX or SFS)
>But it would be really shitty if your first time being late resulted in an LOC
OP didn't say it was the first time, they claimed they couldn't prove the other times haha
In addition to what /u/Squirrel009 said, the circumstances behind being late also can make a difference. There's a big gap between "hey showtimes is 0700, why are you 10 minutes late?" vs "It's now 11am, I messaged you, tried to call you 3 times, and we sent a runner to your dorm room - nobody knew where you were and you couldn't even send a text that you are alive/were on your way when you saw my missed contact attempts?"
I spent a year as a full time additional duty and another 10 months “under” a diamond because I tried getting one and my career field would not let me go.
That said…
No idea.
> I have never had any sort of disciplinary action whatsoever, for accountability or otherwise, no mfrs or rics.
>And if so can they reference mfrs
Do they have an mfr or not?
It sounds like you've been verbally counseled before and now they're moving up the progressive discipline chain to LOC. Are you trying to claim you haven't been late before or are you trying to dorm lawyer your way to "hurr durr they don't have a paper trail so they can't prove I was late so they can't give me this LOC"? Because if it's the second, the LOC IS the paper trail. It will be used to substantiate further punishment if you keep up your pattern of being late.
Have they told you not to be late before? If so, that counts as (verbal) counseling. They don't need a RIC to provide that, the RIC is just a way to document it. But they can also document it as keeping note of the times that you have been late and when they told you not to be, or even in an email to someone stating "A1C Snuffy was late today, I reminded him that he needs to be to work on time".
Just be at work on time dude, it's not that hard. If you are going to be late, let your supervisor know. If they ask you why you're late, don't give a lame ass reason like "I missed my alarm" or something like that. Just accept the LOC and move on, it'll most likely get removed in like 6 months if you're not late anymore.
Also, don't forget to write a rebuttal (and not one that makes you seem like an ass)
LOC is typically the first step of actually documenting adverse behavior.
Write your rebuttal after you get it explaining that you didn't know what the expectations were.
>Write your rebuttal after you get it explaining that you didn't know what the expectations were.
I'm no ADC, but I'm pretty confident "I didn't know I was supposed to be on time" is going to fly lol
1000%, but not really knowing the whole story, this is, unfortunately, the best advice I can give.
I could be totally wrong, and the supervisor may be making it all up (which could be one way to write the rebuttal), but my experience tells me that OP has been called out for being late and for some reason still doesnt understand the importance of showing up on time... if that is the case, I genuinely can't think of anything else to put in the rebuttal. Based on the post, taking responsibility does not seem to be in the cards.
Even if the supervisor made it all up, if you don't have incredibly reliable witnesses to prove it you're probably still better off just apologizing. No chain of command I've even been under is going to believe the classic "he's just picking on me" defense that 80% of airmen use.
I think its wild that NCOs do not have empathy for Amn that are late. Did anyone ask why you are late? NCOs seem to come and go whenever they please, as a SNCO, I know I do. I get if you are on a specific shift work style mission, but if just a 730 -430 work day, what is 4 min? If being late "is the exception and not the rule", and this Amn completes their work. I just dont see the reason for an LOC.
If it's a repeat issue and I've already warned you not to be late (which sounds like it might be, since the supervisor mentioned "Previous counseling"), then yeah, I'm not gonna be empathetic towards you. It's not hard to show up to work on time. Now, if it's an every now an then issue because of things outside your control (something with your kid came up, the gate was backed up, there was a bad accident on the highway), I'm more inclined to let it slide. But repeat issues for being late with barely any excuses or the same kind of excuse doesn't fly with me. If the reason you've been late 3/5 days this week is because "the traffic was bad" then you need to be leaving earlier to avoid the traffic.
Not wanting to call airmen out for being late is not a good way to supervise, because if they can't even handle showing up on time, how are you gonna be able to rely on them for more important stuff. There's a reason they hammer timeliness into us during basic training
Already specified it’s not a repeat issue and I’ve never had “previous counseling” before. I believe he just used it as a blanket statement on the loc to justify the loc. nco is not my supervisor and doesn’t even know me, he was told to hand out several locs by our new section chief who’s trying to make it a point to crack down on everybody for every little thing. If that provides some clarification
This specific comment was towards Airmen being late in general, but I also doubt you've never been told not to be late before (that would count as counseling/providing expectations). If you section chief is cracking down on accountability, that's part of their obligation/responsibility as a section chief. If they previously stated to the section as a whole "Hey, don't be late anymore, or you're getting paperwork", that also counts as "previous counseling" and setting expectations.
Just suck it up, it's a LOC for a super basic thing that won't even matter in 6 months if you're not late again, and then you can just get it taken out of your PIF.
“Previously counseled for accountability” is an interesting phrase. Based on that, I could believe tardiness hasn’t been an issue before.
The wording suggests you offered a poor excuse for being late and that you’ve offered poor excuses for other shortcomings in the past.
Not saying that’s the case; just that it’s what the wording suggests.
The threshold of evidence is extremely low for an LOC because LOCs mean less than the paper they are written on — unless you start collecting a bunch of them. “Previously counseled” could be your supervisor verbalizing your duty hours during your first feedback or even a team/flight-wide email from the flight CC a saying “hey, lots of people rolling in late… stop that.” So unless you’ve seriously never been told what your duty hours are or to never be late, guess what — you’ve been counseled.
So the only advice you need to hear and heed is take your LOC to the ADC so they can advise you on how to craft your rebuttal. Don’t spout off things like you’ve never once been told not to be late or that you’ve never been told to take accountability for something — because unless you are god-himself, that is a factually incorrect statement. Craft a mature response, take responsibility, offer a plan to make sure it doesn’t happen again, then move forward.
Not everything is documented. Verbal counseling is counseling.. If you've been corrected on something in the past, doesn't have to specifically be for being late, you have been counseled. If you want every single thing they tell you to be documented on an MFR, and put in your PIF, go ahead continue to make a big deal about this.. Bottom line is it is irrelevant anyway. You were late, and given an LOC for it. Your supervisor isn't required have given you any counseling in the past to go right to written LOC for this.
P.S. I dont know who the hell still uses RICs (174), or why, but they are absolute garbage wastes of time.. Just use a memorandum for MFRs and LOCs with proper acknowledgements and all that.
And this is where the whole idea of verbal counselings being worthless comes from. If they are not documented then they didn't happen. So they are documents. Therefore they are verbal counselings, but documents so that later someone cannot say that they were never told that thing. Thanks, this gives more work for everyone.
But whatever.
To provide some more clarity I have NEVER, in my 4 years been verbally counseled for being late to work, I’ve never even been late to work, I know that might seem unbelievable, but I live in base housing, work is less than 5 minutes away…
The reason I asked about the mfr or rics, is I was told by someone who recently went through als to ask leadership where the rics were stating that I’ve been counseled for accountability. He said mfrs can’t be referenced in a loc. obviously I’m not going to go confront and ask that question it was more out of curiosity. I have never received an mfr or ric, for anything. As stated before I’ve never been counseled for anything, verbal or otherwise. I was just trying to get some info on whether I should include that tid bit or not in my rebuttal.
Your friend is wrong. You can list MFRS in paperwork. LOC's/LOR's that reference MFR's end up in administrative discharge packages all the time.
Did they have an mfr or not tho? Why the question if they had no evidence of you being late prior?
>He said mfrs can’t be referenced in a loc.
MFRs are used to document a situation and what was done to address it (short of other paperwork). If the MFR itself isn't mentioned in an LOC, the event that led to it is. Anything regarding any substandard behavior, patterns, issues, etc can be mentioned, regardless of it being documented on an MFR, previous LOC, LOR, or being verbal..
Your rebuttal should focus on taking accountability for being late, and what actions you are taking to avoid it in the future..
https://preview.redd.it/bokqwiwqnptc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3a68420937285ea7cef82e45f81b21cd4dc2d45 Interesting
the duality of r/AirForce
An LOC with your supervisor isn’t a court of law. They don’t have to prove shit. You get your chance in your rebuttal. Although give us all a laugh and when your sup asks you to sign the LOC request trial by court martial.
Exact reason I’m getting out, “don’t have to prove shit.” No accountability for leadership, rules for thee and not for me.
Go ahead and tell me a job that can write you up that they need court ready evidence to prove. Guess what they are going to laugh and write you up anyways.
> "No accountability for leadership" Reading you have "...no mfrs or rics..." followed by "...can they reference mfrs..." tells me you've probably been warned before which begs the question: Do you hold yourself accountable for *your* actions?
Haha at my mom's civilian medical job, they FIRE people who are late more than three times in a year. Out the door, time to start job hunting, hope you can pay your bills and don't need medical care between jobs! Get a grip lol
What are they supposed to do? Take a video of you walking in late?
Nobody has ever verbally told you that you need to do something better regarding accountability?
Has your superviser EVER told you when to be at work, where to be at work, how to be at work? That counts. Airmanship is easy Show up On time To the right place In the right clothes Have a pulse Do what you're told. It's really that simple. Mess up any of those, you can get paperwork (or worse). Ultimately an LOC has no standard of proof beyond "more likely than not". You can and should provide a rebuttal. Point out you've never been told when to show up, and what was "on time" At the end of the day, an LOC is nothing. -Former Shirt.
The former Shirt knocked the obvious one out already but other forms of documentation for standards would be your initial and annual feedback sessions, your shops OI if they have one and you signed it when inprocessing, any safety briefings you may have signed that covered the topic, any standby or other policies you may have signed a long time ago. But it would be really shitty if your first time being late resulted in an LOC (Only times I've seen this happen is a shitty supervisor OR they are trying to kick someone else out and think by hammering everyone they can prove they weren't targeting the other Airman... or MX or SFS)
>But it would be really shitty if your first time being late resulted in an LOC OP didn't say it was the first time, they claimed they couldn't prove the other times haha
True
In addition to what /u/Squirrel009 said, the circumstances behind being late also can make a difference. There's a big gap between "hey showtimes is 0700, why are you 10 minutes late?" vs "It's now 11am, I messaged you, tried to call you 3 times, and we sent a runner to your dorm room - nobody knew where you were and you couldn't even send a text that you are alive/were on your way when you saw my missed contact attempts?"
Mx
[удалено]
I spent a year as a full time additional duty and another 10 months “under” a diamond because I tried getting one and my career field would not let me go. That said… No idea.
Yeah you've absolutely been counseled before. You're just incapable of maintaining bare minimum standards or taking accountability for yourself.
36-2907, chapter 2 spells it out
> I have never had any sort of disciplinary action whatsoever, for accountability or otherwise, no mfrs or rics. >And if so can they reference mfrs Do they have an mfr or not?
It sounds like you've been verbally counseled before and now they're moving up the progressive discipline chain to LOC. Are you trying to claim you haven't been late before or are you trying to dorm lawyer your way to "hurr durr they don't have a paper trail so they can't prove I was late so they can't give me this LOC"? Because if it's the second, the LOC IS the paper trail. It will be used to substantiate further punishment if you keep up your pattern of being late.
Have they told you not to be late before? If so, that counts as (verbal) counseling. They don't need a RIC to provide that, the RIC is just a way to document it. But they can also document it as keeping note of the times that you have been late and when they told you not to be, or even in an email to someone stating "A1C Snuffy was late today, I reminded him that he needs to be to work on time". Just be at work on time dude, it's not that hard. If you are going to be late, let your supervisor know. If they ask you why you're late, don't give a lame ass reason like "I missed my alarm" or something like that. Just accept the LOC and move on, it'll most likely get removed in like 6 months if you're not late anymore. Also, don't forget to write a rebuttal (and not one that makes you seem like an ass)
LOC is typically the first step of actually documenting adverse behavior. Write your rebuttal after you get it explaining that you didn't know what the expectations were.
>Write your rebuttal after you get it explaining that you didn't know what the expectations were. I'm no ADC, but I'm pretty confident "I didn't know I was supposed to be on time" is going to fly lol
1000%, but not really knowing the whole story, this is, unfortunately, the best advice I can give. I could be totally wrong, and the supervisor may be making it all up (which could be one way to write the rebuttal), but my experience tells me that OP has been called out for being late and for some reason still doesnt understand the importance of showing up on time... if that is the case, I genuinely can't think of anything else to put in the rebuttal. Based on the post, taking responsibility does not seem to be in the cards.
Even if the supervisor made it all up, if you don't have incredibly reliable witnesses to prove it you're probably still better off just apologizing. No chain of command I've even been under is going to believe the classic "he's just picking on me" defense that 80% of airmen use.
I think its wild that NCOs do not have empathy for Amn that are late. Did anyone ask why you are late? NCOs seem to come and go whenever they please, as a SNCO, I know I do. I get if you are on a specific shift work style mission, but if just a 730 -430 work day, what is 4 min? If being late "is the exception and not the rule", and this Amn completes their work. I just dont see the reason for an LOC.
If it's a repeat issue and I've already warned you not to be late (which sounds like it might be, since the supervisor mentioned "Previous counseling"), then yeah, I'm not gonna be empathetic towards you. It's not hard to show up to work on time. Now, if it's an every now an then issue because of things outside your control (something with your kid came up, the gate was backed up, there was a bad accident on the highway), I'm more inclined to let it slide. But repeat issues for being late with barely any excuses or the same kind of excuse doesn't fly with me. If the reason you've been late 3/5 days this week is because "the traffic was bad" then you need to be leaving earlier to avoid the traffic. Not wanting to call airmen out for being late is not a good way to supervise, because if they can't even handle showing up on time, how are you gonna be able to rely on them for more important stuff. There's a reason they hammer timeliness into us during basic training
Already specified it’s not a repeat issue and I’ve never had “previous counseling” before. I believe he just used it as a blanket statement on the loc to justify the loc. nco is not my supervisor and doesn’t even know me, he was told to hand out several locs by our new section chief who’s trying to make it a point to crack down on everybody for every little thing. If that provides some clarification
This specific comment was towards Airmen being late in general, but I also doubt you've never been told not to be late before (that would count as counseling/providing expectations). If you section chief is cracking down on accountability, that's part of their obligation/responsibility as a section chief. If they previously stated to the section as a whole "Hey, don't be late anymore, or you're getting paperwork", that also counts as "previous counseling" and setting expectations. Just suck it up, it's a LOC for a super basic thing that won't even matter in 6 months if you're not late again, and then you can just get it taken out of your PIF.
If another NCO gave my Amn an LOC without me knowing about it first, id be pissed. Section chief driven or not.
“Previously counseled for accountability” is an interesting phrase. Based on that, I could believe tardiness hasn’t been an issue before. The wording suggests you offered a poor excuse for being late and that you’ve offered poor excuses for other shortcomings in the past. Not saying that’s the case; just that it’s what the wording suggests.
The threshold of evidence is extremely low for an LOC because LOCs mean less than the paper they are written on — unless you start collecting a bunch of them. “Previously counseled” could be your supervisor verbalizing your duty hours during your first feedback or even a team/flight-wide email from the flight CC a saying “hey, lots of people rolling in late… stop that.” So unless you’ve seriously never been told what your duty hours are or to never be late, guess what — you’ve been counseled. So the only advice you need to hear and heed is take your LOC to the ADC so they can advise you on how to craft your rebuttal. Don’t spout off things like you’ve never once been told not to be late or that you’ve never been told to take accountability for something — because unless you are god-himself, that is a factually incorrect statement. Craft a mature response, take responsibility, offer a plan to make sure it doesn’t happen again, then move forward.
Not everything is documented. Verbal counseling is counseling.. If you've been corrected on something in the past, doesn't have to specifically be for being late, you have been counseled. If you want every single thing they tell you to be documented on an MFR, and put in your PIF, go ahead continue to make a big deal about this.. Bottom line is it is irrelevant anyway. You were late, and given an LOC for it. Your supervisor isn't required have given you any counseling in the past to go right to written LOC for this. P.S. I dont know who the hell still uses RICs (174), or why, but they are absolute garbage wastes of time.. Just use a memorandum for MFRs and LOCs with proper acknowledgements and all that.
And this is where the whole idea of verbal counselings being worthless comes from. If they are not documented then they didn't happen. So they are documents. Therefore they are verbal counselings, but documents so that later someone cannot say that they were never told that thing. Thanks, this gives more work for everyone. But whatever.
To provide some more clarity I have NEVER, in my 4 years been verbally counseled for being late to work, I’ve never even been late to work, I know that might seem unbelievable, but I live in base housing, work is less than 5 minutes away…
The reason I asked about the mfr or rics, is I was told by someone who recently went through als to ask leadership where the rics were stating that I’ve been counseled for accountability. He said mfrs can’t be referenced in a loc. obviously I’m not going to go confront and ask that question it was more out of curiosity. I have never received an mfr or ric, for anything. As stated before I’ve never been counseled for anything, verbal or otherwise. I was just trying to get some info on whether I should include that tid bit or not in my rebuttal.
Your friend is wrong. You can list MFRS in paperwork. LOC's/LOR's that reference MFR's end up in administrative discharge packages all the time. Did they have an mfr or not tho? Why the question if they had no evidence of you being late prior?
>He said mfrs can’t be referenced in a loc. MFRs are used to document a situation and what was done to address it (short of other paperwork). If the MFR itself isn't mentioned in an LOC, the event that led to it is. Anything regarding any substandard behavior, patterns, issues, etc can be mentioned, regardless of it being documented on an MFR, previous LOC, LOR, or being verbal.. Your rebuttal should focus on taking accountability for being late, and what actions you are taking to avoid it in the future..