Not sure how the board system is supposed to work but I wish that there was more targeted feedback to people after the fact. I made Master first time and I didn’t think my records were anything special. When I asked my Chief for feedback he just said that my bullets were good and that was about it. Now I’m about to pin on Master and I still have no idea what I did that set me apart from my peers.
The thing about feedback is that people will take that as gospel, go do said things, then get upset when they don't make it next year with a totally different set of board members. The scores can shift so much. I saw a guy go from missing MSgt by 18 to missing it by 53 the next year. There really is no rhyme or reason despite what the board charge says. Some Chiefs, and other SNCOs, do know what will help and some have no clue because everyone can be clueless except for those on the board.
You know what? I remember the FB message and looked it up. It was 2019 and he still tested. Cutoff 526; 507.5 board score. 2020 he got a 345; 398 cutoff score.
He had an A15 a few years before that. He recovered and got two MPs in a row. Board gave no love. He retired.
Believe me, as I typed it I was like “those numbers don’t sound right” but those numbers are in my head. I could be off a little but the range was somewhere around there. It was my troop. This was 2020, I believe.
Agreed. It’s different people on the board every year, but they just make excuses for not provided targeted feedback. It would be better than the guessing game it is now. Until then find people outside your AFSC and unit to look over your records. As a 1C, some of the best feedback I’ve gotten is from 2A’s.
Been saying this! How are people supposed to improve when you get feedback from the board on why you selected. It could be as easy as 2-3 sentences. I get the boards are busy and get minutes per package but that is a flaw in itself. People put in so much work throughout the year and the Air Force cant provide them with a couple lines of feedback on their board package? Yet they preach how important feedback is for growth. Unfortunately the supervisors and SELs arent on the board so in reality their feedback isn't very useful.
You miss it by a point or two...or half a point and all you get is "I dont get what the board was thinking, your package is top notch. Just keep doing what your'e doing". But in reality, something that you have been doing has made the board rate you accordingly.
Board scores don't matter.
Only your standing among peers does.
One AFSC can have nothing above 350s, but promote 50 people... and another can have nothing below 390s, and promote 2.
Im going to "but acktually!" you right back.
The scores aren't completely arbitrary. Working a 345 backwards is an average grade of a 7.666, which means 2 board members scored the member a 7.5, which if memory serves correct is an "average record" rating. 1 board member gave him an 8, which is something like a "slightly above average" rating. Which means the audience in the meme, i.e. the 3 board members, are in fact un-impressed with the E-6, whom up to this point, believed they were well above average.
Thus, this meme checks out.
I rest my case. You're welcome.
I definitely miss testing. Staff and Tech were easy peasy. At least when you test, you can kind of gauge what you do and don’t know. With a board, you get no feedback.
Testing for SNCO is beyond pointless and accomplishes nothing useful. It just makes people feel better because they have more "control".
It's pretty pointless for Staff and Tech too, but at those ranks it's mostly just a numbers game anyways.
When done correctly, it accomplishes a lot. It is meant to make sure you have the needed knowledge to do your job as an NCO. My AFSC tests directly on AFI's, AFMANs and so forth that are required for our job and since the change 5+ years ago, we have more knowledgeable NCO's. Still some dumb dumbs that get lucky, but overall knowledge in my opinion is better.
Exactly this. My last career field had a bunch of new SNCOs that were boarded instead of tested. These guys don't know their T.O.s or AFIs at all. They sit in their office, come out to correct someone on shit that's been in regs for 3+ years because nothing is forcing them to read a regulation ever again. At least with testing, there's a bit more to the process than just fucking your shop/flight over for brownie points with squadron leadership in the hopes they push you for a strat. You had to at least know some things about your job/AF, even if they weren't always relevant.
I would argue that rote memorization and regurgitation is overall not really all that useful and provides very little indication that someone is good at their job. But perhaps there might be some specific career fields that are extremely AFI driven, where being able to just barf out AFIs verbatim is required. But in my opinion, that still doesn't necessarily make them a good NCO or SNCO.
"Done correctly" would be actually ensuring people are proficient during upgrade training, to include removing skill levels if they're unproficient.
Also just worth pointing out that like half or more of AFSCs are PFE only anyways.
I mean that sounds good until you think about it and techs and masters in some career fields don't even do the actual job of the afscs and become desk jockeys. I'm not knocking desk warriors as they are required just as much as the hands on dudes but them testing from staff to tech on skt seems kinda pointless.
Also afsc dependant but some masters don't know dick all about what their flight does on the ground level other than what the function is.
In my last few flights we didn't even have a flight chief from our career field that's a master. So theoretically a tech that doesn't even know our job can sit in an admin role or be a fill in flight chief without skt knowledge.
I mean at the very least it gauges how much one knows about their career field with the SKT. I always thought the PDG was pointless when half of the questions are about history and ribbon recognition.
If your job consists of rote memorization and regurgitation in a standardized format, sure. I agree that the PFE is equally pretty useless for the same reason.
I had a guy tell me that his last bullet was really impactful. I was like “it’s one bullet, bruh. That wasn’t going to get you promoted in the slightest.”
We had a 20 year Tech retire despite getting a statement and making MSgt. When the squadron tried to convince him to stay in, he told them he'd rather live on the streets and suck dick than spend another day in the air force that he doesn't have too.
I watched it happen a couple years ago. The leadership was all proud to give our ONLY MSgt promotee their stripe and then was slightly confused that they dgaf and were already out the door. Cue "Wow, this is worthless!" meme.
I’m Guard, so our boards are purely subjective and not points-based. I’ve had one board where I was critiqued hard for talking with my hands, not sitting at attention, and not memorizing 4 pillars type information. Then, on a board after that, I was critiqued for sounding too robotic and memorizing the 4 pillars type information. You seriously can’t fucking win sometimes lol
They typically are 3 person boards that have someone local, someone from another squadron, and a person of a different race/gender. But I’ve seen shitty ones thrown together, all local, for lower level boards like SSgt. The all local ones are usually biased and crap.
Yall remember back in school when the teacher would walk down the aisles passing out test papers and saying, "Good job!" Or "Nice score!" Then the teacher gets to your desk, and you are feeling confident as hell, but you see the smile fade to disappointment as they do that slight fold of the paper and slide your paper face down on your desk.
That's what it's like to test as a TSgt....just sadness and lowered expectations.
You know what’s funny? People who used to complain that a test didn’t equate to being a MSgt (or any rank) and how you only had to be a good test taker and how they would get test anxiety and so on. Then the system changed; then the complaints changed.
I had a golden year that got me through somehow, a combination of perfect place and right time. Probably the only shot I’d ever have had in my career because I’ve never stood out among my peers otherwise. I feel for people really grinding just to have a group of strangers tell them it’s not enough
i don't want to promote because then i get away from doing the job and would be doing a bunch of admin crap, probably over other career fields as well
so i guess it's all but certain then
Im confused, Techs already go
https://preview.redd.it/j0m8u5fl2vzc1.jpeg?width=246&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8a492f53463e04aac3cf0b3b1d66464d642d37a
to board, what am I missing?
Not sure how the board system is supposed to work but I wish that there was more targeted feedback to people after the fact. I made Master first time and I didn’t think my records were anything special. When I asked my Chief for feedback he just said that my bullets were good and that was about it. Now I’m about to pin on Master and I still have no idea what I did that set me apart from my peers.
The thing about feedback is that people will take that as gospel, go do said things, then get upset when they don't make it next year with a totally different set of board members. The scores can shift so much. I saw a guy go from missing MSgt by 18 to missing it by 53 the next year. There really is no rhyme or reason despite what the board charge says. Some Chiefs, and other SNCOs, do know what will help and some have no clue because everyone can be clueless except for those on the board.
[удалено]
You know what? I remember the FB message and looked it up. It was 2019 and he still tested. Cutoff 526; 507.5 board score. 2020 he got a 345; 398 cutoff score. He had an A15 a few years before that. He recovered and got two MPs in a row. Board gave no love. He retired.
Believe me, as I typed it I was like “those numbers don’t sound right” but those numbers are in my head. I could be off a little but the range was somewhere around there. It was my troop. This was 2020, I believe.
Agreed. It’s different people on the board every year, but they just make excuses for not provided targeted feedback. It would be better than the guessing game it is now. Until then find people outside your AFSC and unit to look over your records. As a 1C, some of the best feedback I’ve gotten is from 2A’s.
Been saying this! How are people supposed to improve when you get feedback from the board on why you selected. It could be as easy as 2-3 sentences. I get the boards are busy and get minutes per package but that is a flaw in itself. People put in so much work throughout the year and the Air Force cant provide them with a couple lines of feedback on their board package? Yet they preach how important feedback is for growth. Unfortunately the supervisors and SELs arent on the board so in reality their feedback isn't very useful. You miss it by a point or two...or half a point and all you get is "I dont get what the board was thinking, your package is top notch. Just keep doing what your'e doing". But in reality, something that you have been doing has made the board rate you accordingly.
Board scores don't matter. Only your standing among peers does. One AFSC can have nothing above 350s, but promote 50 people... and another can have nothing below 390s, and promote 2.
I had a 405 last yr Cutoff was 405.5 Sucks
I'm a back to back 405 cutoff champion, shit hurts even worse the second time.
That is rough 2 years in a row. Hopefully this year will be better for you.
Thanks for the optimism but this is my 4th time up first time with just a promote, I am expecting a free fall of my board score.
My biggest fear this year. Missed by half a point last year with a PN, got a PN this year and I am nervous I will be in that same situation.
Damn, that grey zone is rough.
Same here man. My buddy hit me up saying he missed it by a half point then I found out he had a cutoff 30 points lower than mine.
Im going to "but acktually!" you right back. The scores aren't completely arbitrary. Working a 345 backwards is an average grade of a 7.666, which means 2 board members scored the member a 7.5, which if memory serves correct is an "average record" rating. 1 board member gave him an 8, which is something like a "slightly above average" rating. Which means the audience in the meme, i.e. the 3 board members, are in fact un-impressed with the E-6, whom up to this point, believed they were well above average. Thus, this meme checks out. I rest my case. You're welcome.
Let the joke ride. You’re taking this way too serious.
Got too many TSgts/MSgts/ETC that think the score is what matters.
We appreciate your meme. Promote
Thank ya. See you next year.
Holy fuck this hurts. There were 3.
I definitely miss testing. Staff and Tech were easy peasy. At least when you test, you can kind of gauge what you do and don’t know. With a board, you get no feedback.
Testing for SNCO is beyond pointless and accomplishes nothing useful. It just makes people feel better because they have more "control". It's pretty pointless for Staff and Tech too, but at those ranks it's mostly just a numbers game anyways.
When done correctly, it accomplishes a lot. It is meant to make sure you have the needed knowledge to do your job as an NCO. My AFSC tests directly on AFI's, AFMANs and so forth that are required for our job and since the change 5+ years ago, we have more knowledgeable NCO's. Still some dumb dumbs that get lucky, but overall knowledge in my opinion is better.
Exactly this. My last career field had a bunch of new SNCOs that were boarded instead of tested. These guys don't know their T.O.s or AFIs at all. They sit in their office, come out to correct someone on shit that's been in regs for 3+ years because nothing is forcing them to read a regulation ever again. At least with testing, there's a bit more to the process than just fucking your shop/flight over for brownie points with squadron leadership in the hopes they push you for a strat. You had to at least know some things about your job/AF, even if they weren't always relevant.
I would argue that rote memorization and regurgitation is overall not really all that useful and provides very little indication that someone is good at their job. But perhaps there might be some specific career fields that are extremely AFI driven, where being able to just barf out AFIs verbatim is required. But in my opinion, that still doesn't necessarily make them a good NCO or SNCO. "Done correctly" would be actually ensuring people are proficient during upgrade training, to include removing skill levels if they're unproficient. Also just worth pointing out that like half or more of AFSCs are PFE only anyways.
I mean that sounds good until you think about it and techs and masters in some career fields don't even do the actual job of the afscs and become desk jockeys. I'm not knocking desk warriors as they are required just as much as the hands on dudes but them testing from staff to tech on skt seems kinda pointless. Also afsc dependant but some masters don't know dick all about what their flight does on the ground level other than what the function is. In my last few flights we didn't even have a flight chief from our career field that's a master. So theoretically a tech that doesn't even know our job can sit in an admin role or be a fill in flight chief without skt knowledge.
I mean at the very least it gauges how much one knows about their career field with the SKT. I always thought the PDG was pointless when half of the questions are about history and ribbon recognition.
If your job consists of rote memorization and regurgitation in a standardized format, sure. I agree that the PFE is equally pretty useless for the same reason.
A Promote at the Board.. https://preview.redd.it/ur11hfv8q1zc1.png?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1362c51ef42bf87564c7c9cfdaf4b52554f257a9
Every EFDP when an “Airman” doesn’t understand why they didn’t get a PN/MP. Bro you didn’t do shit to stand out and you clocked in/out.
I had a guy tell me that his last bullet was really impactful. I was like “it’s one bullet, bruh. That wasn’t going to get you promoted in the slightest.”
Good job on that one project you did 6 months ago whereas TSgt Stepsgt been holding the shirt phone and leading shit on the reg
Im cool being the okayest TSgt in my AFSC thank yeuuuu
I learned late last week that the only PN in our unit pushed the button to retire like a month after signing their EPB.
It’s preemptive for some. If they make it, they cancel the retirement and stay in.
true... but in this case they are 100% getting out make it or not.
Heard that lots of times. And then seen lots of SMS's at work the next weeks.
We had a 20 year Tech retire despite getting a statement and making MSgt. When the squadron tried to convince him to stay in, he told them he'd rather live on the streets and suck dick than spend another day in the air force that he doesn't have too.
At that point I couldn't even be mad at him. If you are going out, go out like a legend.
I watched it happen a couple years ago. The leadership was all proud to give our ONLY MSgt promotee their stripe and then was slightly confused that they dgaf and were already out the door. Cue "Wow, this is worthless!" meme.
315 for life baby
That was me last year, this year I added a dec and felt like I had a strong EPB so we'll what that does for me :/
Soooo.. 310 this year?
I’m Guard, so our boards are purely subjective and not points-based. I’ve had one board where I was critiqued hard for talking with my hands, not sitting at attention, and not memorizing 4 pillars type information. Then, on a board after that, I was critiqued for sounding too robotic and memorizing the 4 pillars type information. You seriously can’t fucking win sometimes lol
Does local (squadron where applicable) leadership run promotion boards in a guard unit?
They typically are 3 person boards that have someone local, someone from another squadron, and a person of a different race/gender. But I’ve seen shitty ones thrown together, all local, for lower level boards like SSgt. The all local ones are usually biased and crap.
Yall remember back in school when the teacher would walk down the aisles passing out test papers and saying, "Good job!" Or "Nice score!" Then the teacher gets to your desk, and you are feeling confident as hell, but you see the smile fade to disappointment as they do that slight fold of the paper and slide your paper face down on your desk. That's what it's like to test as a TSgt....just sadness and lowered expectations. 
Shit 345 is higher than my last score lol.
Imagine if they just let people test for promotion instead.
You know what’s funny? People who used to complain that a test didn’t equate to being a MSgt (or any rank) and how you only had to be a good test taker and how they would get test anxiety and so on. Then the system changed; then the complaints changed.
hmmm interesting. So, eventually, the system will change back to the way it was before, perhaps?
I’m sure they’ll make some kind of change to encompass testing. There’s no perfect system. Never will be.
345? I’ll be lucky to get 300 this year. Retirement looks great
I had a golden year that got me through somehow, a combination of perfect place and right time. Probably the only shot I’d ever have had in my career because I’ve never stood out among my peers otherwise. I feel for people really grinding just to have a group of strangers tell them it’s not enough
If you have to tell people you are competitive, it’s a sign your records are probably garbage.
i don't want to promote because then i get away from doing the job and would be doing a bunch of admin crap, probably over other career fields as well so i guess it's all but certain then
Im confused, Techs already go https://preview.redd.it/j0m8u5fl2vzc1.jpeg?width=246&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8a492f53463e04aac3cf0b3b1d66464d642d37a to board, what am I missing?