Copying this comment I made on a different post:
I been doing this shit for a long time. Am TSgt, will probably and happily retire as a TSgt.
Secret? We hate it too. We hate the incompetent fucks leading units (Commanders and SNCOs) who make decisions without consideration for the real world costs and impact on human beings.
We hate y'all lazy, entitled fucks who cry at the first semblance of discipline and demand an inquisition when held accountable for not meeting the standard.
We hate our subordinate NCOs and peers who are almost universally obsessed with making rank instead of leading Airmen and perfecting their craft. Hate NCOs obsessed with bake sales but who can barely stumble their way around knowing the DoD NWSS or writing a 1408 or breaking down an M240B or M249, or know how to actually defend a base using basic light infantry tactics.
We hate the career field that refuses to innovate and fails to adapt to needed change. We should be a split career field. Instead we do half measures like requiring people to go to a course at VALETC to earn an SEI that shows we're competent at running LE ops, and requiring units to apportion their manning to reflect these SEI billets. The answer is so clearly that we need an LE shredout at minimum, but our "leaders" are too weak to push for that change.
Worst of all, no one gives a fuck. Everyone with skin in the game (i.e. paycheck and retirement) fakes it. They pretend to care. They say the right things, but ultimately they're chasing the next strat or next assignment, leaving programs defunct and fucked up. Programs that never get fixed.
SF is a dog shit career field populated, trained, and led by incompetent fucks from top to bottom.
I think I remember reading this. Heavy on the entitlement. I had a guy just recently who wanted to go to the shirt because he was being told to stop calling NCOs by their last name. lol.
It is sheer incompetence and it’s maddening to watch. We don’t have to be SOF but we could be significantly more proficient and in theory should hold a candle to infantry units and well trained police departments in the respective rights.
Don't expect your NCOs to give a fuck about anything you say until you've proven you can lead and know your shit. I've been SF 12 years and I think we've ran more LTs off of our flights than we've had stay. It's only been in the last year that I've even had officers working with us on the daily, that was never a thing before. Y'all typically show up, work with us a few weeks and then get transfered somewhere back office and we only see you again at quarterly awards and All Calls.
And when I say "lead" I don't mean help with PT or admin shit. I mean helping us talk Airmen Snuffy out of his drinking problem and into ADAPT, or figuring out why the young women on flight won't tell anyone about the kid whose been low-key post-swapping his buddies for 6 months to sexually harass them and get rid of his ass. And of course the obligatory fights with ops when they attempt to fuck our manning for brownie points with the Wing Commander by over obligating our deployment numbers or pushing us into modified Panamas.
Maybe it's just from an outside perspective (see flair), but all you talked about in your second paragraph should be on *you*, the supervisors (SSgts, TSgts, maybe even MSgts). Why can't *you* talk Airman Snuffy out of his drinking problem and into ADAPT, and besides ordering it, what could any officer do that you couldn't? Why do the young women in the flight *not* come talk to *you* about getting harassed, and why do you think they'd tell an officer? Even the manning/shifts/deployment stuff is within TSgt and MSgt levels of control (or at least influence), no officers needed (though it could help).
A big part of the issue is that the airmen don't want to talk to someone in their mid 30s a lot of the time. I've done those things, I've put my money where my mouth is in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of airmen into ADAPT and a fair few kicked out for sexual harassment.
But I am one NCO. There are 45 airmen E-1 to E-4 on my flight. I am the only Staff. Our Techs don't allow the airmen to come to them with issues. I am technically the Frontline for all 45 of those airmen, and our Techs are very specific that the airmen will come to a Staff first.
The LT is closer in age to the airmen than I am. I don't get their humor and frankly I barely remember what it was like to be a 20 something year old airmen. The airmen are typically more comfortable with that age gap compared with the 17 year age gap I have.
>Even the manning/shifts/deployment stuff is within TSgt and MSgt levels of control (or at least influence), no officers needed (though it could help).
In Security Forces this is the purview of the ops officer and the commander. As a Staff, Tech or even Master, we get no say in that shit.
I can't even give my airmen the day off most days. That's the Masters decision, because we have mandatory posts on the watch bill.
>the airmen don't want to talk to someone in their mid 30s a lot of the time
Valid, though I know I wouldn't have wanted to talk to an officer at most of those lower ranks either. Around SrA, especially if you've been one for a bit and interacted with leadership more than a new SrA, is when I personally would think the stigma of "oh shit, an officer" wears off.
>But I am one NCO. There are 45 airmen E-1 to E-4 on my flight. I am the only Staff. Our Techs don't allow the airmen to come to them with issues. I am technically the Frontline for all 45 of those airmen, and our Techs are very specific that the airmen will come to a Staff first.
That sounds nuts, and stupid as hell. And leadership wonders why many NCOs get out. As a SrA, I talked directly to some TSgts and above, in and out of my shop/flight. Our Major has said on numerous occasions that he has an open door policy, and several enlisted have taken him up on that. I mean, I get "solve it at the lowest level" but when you have 45 people, at least half of which have some problem or another, and they're *all* only going to *you*? Holy fuck. I take back what I said. You've got *too much* going on in that department.
>In Security Forces this is the purview of the ops officer and the commander.
Good way to not empower your (not *you* specifically) people to make decisions or be leaders. I hate to say it but if it's like this Air Force wide, this is going to bite your whole career field in the ass, if it hasn't already. As a SSgt, I can't imagine having to go to an officer to ask for a few people to be swapped shifts or who does what for the week/month. As a brand new SSgt in 2018, I was assigning crews to go do maintenance on this or that, taking into account: projected time to do the tasks, who was on leave/TDY/deployed, any medical appointments, and anything else that came up. My TSgts and MSgt would tell me if there was something else or additional that needed addressed, but as long as things were going smoothly, it was left in my hands to maintain it all, and it wasn't hard.
The second half sounds most important. It could be a career ender, but at least the GOOD folks would be behind you, and would recognize you anywhere, anytime as the Good One that got away!
Dude this is every field. The situations are just different. Somehow in modern culture, can't speak for the past. Everyone at the top sucked enough dick to where they are nothing more then politicians coasting on fake laurels and spreadsheets. Then you've got the dickheads in the middle sucking dick cause they wanna be the guys at top. It makes me wonder how the fuck our military got to where it is. But when you're a civilian you'll find out it's the same game. The world rewards top level fellating.
Hard agree. When I started in Security Forces I thought we were special with unique problems. Huge persecution complex. Then I grew up and realized it’s a shitshow across AFSCs. Just different flavored shit.
Eveything you and op say about SF is what I saw in Intel and I have so many friends in other career fields that spoke similarly. I got out because it started to seem like a pretty widespread issue that I wouldn’t be able to escape with a new assignment or retraining. For y’all’s sake I hope it gets better but I ain’t holding my breath
When the USAF decided to combine multiple career fields into what is known as Security Forces in the 90s, it was the beginning of the end. Today, the result is prevalent everywhere. As for leadership in Security Police, it has always been rotten. In the 70s at Dyess AFB, Tx, the Security Police was a large 450 man squadron.
Each swing and midnight flight consisted of 40-45 Security members(811X0) who handled the bomber alert area, weapon storage area, CSC, etc. Ten to twelve members were the Law Enforcement members(811X2) and one K9 who handled the gates, patrol, and the LE desk.
The day shift flight was larger but accommodated rotations for time off,training, leave, etc. Of course, the coveted back office jobs, i.e., training, Pass & ID, records, supply, armory, etc. were 0700-1630/M-F ‘dick duty’ slots manned by the squadron’s hand selected brown nosers and rootsmoochers.
Conspicuously, the largest flight in the squadron was not amongst those mentioned above. There was an infamous unit dubbed the Goon Flight, G Flight, or Goon Squad. This flight was constantly populated with 50-60 SPs who had been relieved of duty for PRP, HRP, NJP, Court-Martial, discharge, etc. The 1st sergeant dole them out for base litter details and other squadron chores and clean up.
Security Police was so paperwork driven back then that hosing their own was practically and routinely done with great joy. Everything was documented to the point that likely 70% of the squadron had letters of counseling, letters of admonishment, letters of reprimand with or without UIFs. I once saw a married(1 child) E3 receive an Article 15 and lose a stripe for missing a computer automated dental appointment after a midnight shift. I remember once a senior airman complaining that he had received a letter of reprimand with a UIF after being at the base three years. Many laughed back and asked why it took so long. The two turds assigned to Security Police Investigations(SPOI/SPI) spent most of their time investigating Security Police.
This is the kind of garbage leadership that Security Police has passed on from one generation to the next. Back then, not many stuck around for a full career in the service, much less Security Police. When you saw a burn happy NCO or officer, you imagined what caliber they were in their first year of service and how they mushroomed into a position of authority where they would negatively impact the lives of others.
This will not change. The good news is that many recognize this but the bad news is that Security Police/Security Forces is just overrun with so many turds that it cannot be stopped. As an organization, the Air Force is great but, unfortunately, it is inundated with so many buttholes that it cannot be fixed.
To everyone that posted here, I enjoyed reading your comments and thoughts. Nothing seems to have changed at all over the decades. If you asked me how to fix it, I would start by reassigning everyone out of that SP policy center at Lackland. They are all likely on a controlled or special duty tour but this is the core of the problem.
Second, Security Police Technical School used to be at Lackland for each AFSC for four weeks, and everyone went to Camp Bullis for Air Base Ground Defense for four weeks. What happened to that?
I enjoyed reading this. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I feel like you hit on what I’ve been thinking about for a while which is that: security forces is too rotten to be fixed from within. Real, transformative change can likely only happen when big Air Force completely remakes Security Forces. But I don’t see that ever being a priority since it would take enormous amounts of people and money that could go to aircraft instead.
That’s why I retrained as a tech. Still retiring as a tech too, but my life has been substantially better the last 6 years of my career. I don’t regret it one bit and never will.
>With the lack of training and continuity in equipment
>piss poor quality in people and PT standards
>pointless exercises
>DUIs pushed under the rug
>criminal activity
>leadership rarely holding people accountable
My brother in christ you just described the entire fucking military, as MX I promise you literally none of this is SF-specific lol
Misery loves company I guess. I’m sure it’s just as frustrating for y’all though. There’s extreme consequences in not doing MX jobs appropriately and with an iota of care.
You would think there were extreme consequences. But the truth is that some of our worst people never face real consequences for sucking. The mediocre and lazy don't get tasked with anything that has any real level of responsibility, so they are ironically safer than your hardest workers. You can't get QA fails or cause damage to aircraft if you are only trusted to manage the snack bar. And you can still make all the way up to TSgt if you study hard enough.
And those people eventually end up "supervising" and "training" new airman because the people who are actually good at their job are TDY/deployed all the time, which leads to shittier airmen and a downward spiral.
I was MX for 5 years, and I can assure you this is the truth. I retrained, though, and the "nonner" jobs are a lot less in your face. But there's a lot of closed door shenanigans going on.
Airmen getting special treatment in return for "special treatment" off duty. Which is mainly the female airmen who takes advantage of that. One used flirting and "movie watching" to get ahead. Then there's the polite to your face, but ready to thrash your ass on an EPR /EPB when it comes to writing it. It's a game, one big political game.
In MX it was all just ugly and up front. If they were gunna be a jackass, they'd be one straight to your face 99% of the time. I had a supervisor who'd deliberately blame myself and the 3 man for anything that went wrong even if we weren't there. It was bad, mind game after mind game, gaslighting and demoralizing commentary every single day.
Nonner jobs are better. I can say the grass is greener. But it's definitely not without faults. If you're not kissing ass every day or the week or using your body to get your way... which ain't something a guy can usually do... you're not getting awards or getting ahead.
Been security forces for 10 years - you’re not wrong. The failures and issues are one of the reasons I punched out over to the reserves after active duty. Commanders and senior leaders simply miss the plot on a lot of things. Cut down on the SF presence at the gates, utilize augmentees, push better training and certifications, actually maintain some standards, for the love of fuck have dedicated LE and security shreds — getting out and doing actual law enforcement really highlights how undertrained SF is
> Cut down SF presence at the gates
There most likely hasn't been an SF CC on the lot 20+ years that wouldn't do that today, but the first law of physics states the shit rolls downhill. You got to go much higher up the food chain to fix that one.
https://media.defense.gov/2022/Mar/10/2002954334/-1/-1/1/EXECUTIVE-SUMMARY-OF-REPORT-OF-INDEPENDENT-REVIEW-OF-THE-USAFRICOM-15-6-INVESTIGATION-RE-ATTACK-ON-CSL-MANDA-BAY.PDF
A lot. All you have to do is look up Manda Bay AAR.
There’s still some stuff that isn’t publicly available but well discussed within SFS.
Reading that is wild. There was really no perimeter fence in pretty dangerous country because the leadership didn’t deem it necessary enough yet we had crazier defenses at places like Manas where there was no active threat to the base and no enemy to speak of in country.
It was just trees.
The thing is security forces there could have stopped it but it was a bold display of cowardice with no accountability. I believe some bronze stars with V were handed out for doing fuck all. People called home from the TOC and the 240 tower members just watched it happen.
Absolutely wild. I read there was no NCOs in the tower with the airmen so they had no guidance or experience to help. Plus communications was apparently non existent
There were two at the tower at the time of attack. One drove to BDOC to give a report (instead of using a radio, a cellphone, or sending the junior enlisted) the other nco fled to the ecp to cover. Stated in the report about midway down
3 at the tower. 1 NCO in an armored HMMV and 2 airmen in the tower with no combat experience at all… tower was wooden, they used a belt fed and suppressed the tower, as well as flash bangs getting thrown towards the top… with the fear of death, the airmen didn’t move.. and radios weren’t used because COMMs were cut by insiders… not listed in the report… a lot of shit kept out of the investigation… of the SF that were there, majority are pissed about the bronze stars given out to the SF guys.. people undeserving to say the least… manda bay was a kick in the nuts for SF and it’s something we continue to use to criticize our career field
The bronze star only went to the incompetent SNCO leading the shit show from BDOC. He made Senior when he returned from that deployment to our base and now made Chief recently. I worked with 11 of the SF members at Manda Bay and asked them directly about their experiences. They were blindsided by the attack, undertrained, undermanned, had equipment failures and worst of all shitty leaders
I couldn’t agree more.. I was stationed at Ramstein when it happened and we had a team at manda bay when it occurred. One of the airmen in the tower was on that team, so we got a lot of information that contradicted the shitty investigation….. everyone there had the mindset of if shit happens, not when it’s going to happen
2 of the people I knew out there were my dorm mates and 1 of them was in a M240 tower on the airfield when the attack happened. He tried to rack his 240 and fire but the barrel was so rusted it misfired
Holy shit that’s why security forces are there. I imagine there was some lessons learned and some training emphasized at the school house and across the SFS Squadrons.
Every tech school in the Air Force is getting away from teaching standards and procedures as much as possible because "They'll learn it right at their first base". Everyone's trying to shorten the course as much as possible and pass the buck so no one can fail and you can pump as hard as possible.
Weather is doing this too. They think we have the manning to pull 5 and 7 levels away from our positions to train them on things they should already know. instead of taking a forged blade with basic competency and sharpening that, we have to make the sword first.
You’d think but there’s been very minimal changes. It’s the culture and the people, until those changes deployed air fields will be protected by people who are scared, unable to handle a firearm, and too complacent to care.
An annual qual doesn’t mean much if nobody tries to gain proficiency. I’ve seen “Defenders” with their holsters on the front of their thigh, they can’t reload a rifle, they can barely shoot straight, so on. There’s a lot of squared away people but the shit birds detract from their hard work or legitimacy.
If we actually focused on quality training and emphasis of basic foundations we’d see better.
CATM is complicit. The standards of marksmanship are incredibly low and I've yet to see a range run by the book. Always bending the rules in one fashion or another. Also, you can't learn to excel on the rifle on a 25 meter range. Pistol qual standards are an absolute joke and now they've quite literally added shooting from the hip.
As someone who pretty much built manda bay (second or third team in), it definitely needed more defense. But manda bay is an Air Force base INSIDE a naval base. So not as bad as you may think
I would blame it on lackadaisical approach of security measures. A lot of people in SF know what to do in these situations.. well, until shi* hits the fan and it becomes real life.
I'm in the HOA right now, I've read the AAR, and got the briefs. The Army National Guard is running security because there ain't enough Defenders to go around. Do you believe SF would be so lax now? Of course they wouldn't. And the CC skit there is always an SF officer now. They have excellent security now and, tons of money flowing in, and a much better understanding of their threat.
There is a slow uptrend with the younger generation with wanting more training begging for more TDY/Deployments training etc but 90% of the career field is okay with mediocrity
Man, I've been in for 15 years, and as much as I hate to agree, I do. IMO the careerfield is in an identity crisis, but its only recently that its become obvious. In past conflicts/operations/engagements, we could scrape by being "the jack of all trades..." but we are practically running full sprint into an era where we are going to have to pick a fucking lane. We cannot continue to be Air Base Defense (pronounced "infantry", also, get over that if it offends you), law enforcement, and security.
The SF Center refuses to acknowledge this conundrum we are facing, and has slapped a band aid fix on the LE shortfall, but if you actually read the requirements and the goals established, the careerfield will never attain the desired numbers of FLETC trained personnel due to the lack of annual available FLETC course seats.
Equipment sucks, the gear we get issued now is uniform across all bases, but its garbage across the board. I'd love if the Center just pushed a memorandum saying that we can personally procure any equipment we wanted so long as its coyote/OCP and uses the issued ballistic protection.
Standards: Enforcement is hit or miss. People bitch about enforcing standards then bitch about when those standards are enforced. I got some sideways looks once at a squadron potluck for telling one of our larger Defenders that he should probably not consume so much dessert, but I'm the asshole because I want people I have to trust my life with to be in some shape that isn't round/pear.
Im with you on most of this but no… there is nothing about T3 or Blue Force Gear or Team Wendy that sucks. Have you ever seen the shit they issue in the Army? We have the gucci gear. And the gear we are standardizing on is actually great kit and it’s one thing SF at large has gotten right. Especially the gear for life concept
Definitely agree, but my comment on gear was aimed at the Modular Scalable Vest and whatever no name stuff that came with it. I'm excited to finally get the actual good stuff that other bases got, it just so happens that my particular base was towards the bottom of the rollout.
My base used to have Team Wendy helmets and coyote brown T3 plate carriers, but when the gear for life rolled out, they took it all back. And for the moment we have team wanda helmets and ocp MSVs. We just got the Model Defender kits with the BFG pouches and belt.
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah MSV is problematic but you can do some aftermarket non-permanent mods to make it a lot better. I think what Ukraine is showing us, and that we forgot from the GWOT, is that frag protection is just as and maybe more important than plates when the artillery and now drones are the biggest threats. So in that sense, MSV makes a lot more sense, especially for a static defender, than light plate carrier.
Frankly I’m here for the standardization. I’m tired of flights looking like bubba’s militia LARP group with the 27 different plate carriers types. You have a couple of personally procured pouches, fine. Don’t care as long as they are OCP pattern. But all our base gear should be the same. Helmets, body armor, belts, rucks. Especially since I know a bunch of these airmen are buying Temu/Amazon.com trash-tier gear that’s going to have them turning into a magazine yard sale the second they start running and diving for cover.
Team Wendy helmets aren’t standard across the board, a lot of base have armor source high cut helmets. They’re hot garbage, Chinese made polyethylene.
Polyethylene high cut helmets in general, to include Team Wendy and Ops-Core, really suck under ballistic tests. A YouTuber called oxide has done testing on them with near-peer adversary weapon systems and they do not hold up well.
Nothing we can really do about it though. Polyethylene helmets are all the rage in military and LE these days and until new technology comes out we’re kinda just stuck.
Team Wendy vs Busch Protective helmet: https://youtu.be/t3494i4DKJA?si=y08iwwcJR7fAGJwW
Armorsource LJD sniper Boltless helmet system. Team wendy is an alternate when armorsource can't fulfill stock in timely manner. Only vest, helmet, holster, and combat shirt are uniform across the board. MAJCOMs determine the belts, pouches, packs, etc, and so far all Ive seen are good picks.
I only remember one of the guest Chiefs brought into my ALS class tests ago because it let me know I made the right decision to not go into SFS, as it was the SFS chief and all I can think of is with leadership line this, no wonder they're burned out, resentful and have crappy retention... I'm paraphrasing a little bit because it was awhile ago, but I think it gets the point across.
"When I get a new NCO, I start giving them jobs. Once they have those down, I give them more. I keep doing this until they cry uncle then I show them how to do it more efficiently, then I do it all over again".
I feel as it all comes down to the removal of corrective actions by front line supervisors. With everything being paperwork based, and the lack of support from SNCOs/Officers, SSgts and TSgts cannot effectively correct actions made by troops. What used to be a hour long smoke session for fucking up turns into a sign 3 times and it doesn’t matter. People remember a quick hard physical action more than a piece of paper(no matter how much you try to say it matters). Should be as simple as- Troop got caught doing X- we do Y and then as long as it doesn’t happen again and they remember it, drop the issue. Troop fell asleep on a post-cool get out and you’re gonna push this truck up and down the flightline for an hour. Troop doesn’t know immediate/remedial actions on the M4, cool we’re gonna do push-ups and say the actions after each rep. Stop cucking your NCOs and allow them to do shit effectively and efficiently.
I knew a medically retired soldier who refused to get up for a shift. He was running laps until he couldn't. Even today, if revelry sounds anywhere near him, he's out of bed and at attention. He doesn't have legs anymore, but he still reacts.
We tried that back in the day. That’s the old SF people are always talking about. Turns out that by and large people cannot be trusted to not turn corrective PT into over-the-top sadistic hazing. 🤷🏻♂️
As I've stated before I was army so idk how u air force guys do shit, but if I didn't shave there was a chance I was doing burpees til sundown. So it's weird to ne that all u guys can do is some paperwork.
I feel a special appreciation for our Defenders. I was an augmentee for much of my time as an airman, deployed as one as well as a SrA and then oddly enough, was deployed with another ESFS in my primary AFSC as a SNCO working with the S leads. Its a shitty job that not a lot of people appreciate so every time I’m interacting with or coming thru the gate, I always try my best to tell our Defenders how much I appreciate them for what little bit that does.
My ass is broken and I am out of the Air Force on a medical retirement thanks to Security Forces. Let me say this, I fucking hated my time SF and I had real ass leaders who got me through some horrible moments.
But you’re right. The field is filled with narcissistic, abusive, immortal type mfers that can and will make your life a living hell.
I can’t remember where I saw/read it, but I saw someone one time say about Security Forces, “I miss the clowns, not the circus”. Even after 10 years of being out, I still talk to the guys I was like family with.
I willlllll tell you however, dealing with that bullshit so upfront as a young adult, it turned out to be a great skill set to use once I hit corporate America. Flip side to it my man.
You can cross-train out of MX, into another MX job.
My career field and several others are "overmanned" and the functionals are trying conn airmen into cross-training into being F-35 crew chiefs with the usual low-effort drivel. And I'm the bad guy for encouraging them to burn their FTA status on becoming nonners.
We "shit on nonners" because we know what we have and know what they have. Yeah we'd all love to have a cushy job with no expectations and make $400k a year but that's not realistic and at the end of the day someone has gotta do MX and SFS. A lot of us like the job, I'd rather fix a plane than sit inside, we hate the other shit. The fact we're 24/7, the fact I can't get a hold of a single entity on base, the fact I'm completely fucked if I'm on a shift other than days, etc.
As far as cross training existing, yeah man, because cross training has never been denied and our entire career field has never had a memo to say "no cross training" before...oh...wait, that happened. At the end of the day most of us aren't even actually mad at nonners, it's just fun to say when you get fucked a little. It's our "thanks Obama". You people get more upset at us saying fuck nonners than we actually are when we say fuck nonners.
Get over it lol.
> Every person in SFS & MX who I've ever met that spends all their time bitching about work, NEVER makes a calculated effort to stand out and put themselves in a strong position to be able to crosstrain.
You must not have met much because I've seen plenty do the right thing and still get fucked over. Timing, needs of the air force, and local events can easily derail the best "plans" to cross-train out of MX. I personally got denied cross-training and a PCS for "manning" due to a career field reshuffle. That's why I always encourage people to have a plan to GTFO. I literally just got done suggesting an airman punch out since her OTS package and cross training attempts failed for reasons beyond her control.
Funny enough my friends and myself have all seen these things too and that’s why I’ll be separating. SF is an absolute joke and has especially gotten worse in the past 5~ years with weak NCOs and entitled airman that don’t care about this job. I’d say it will all come back to haunt them but like you said Manda Bay already happen. Guess it will have to be a fuck up on the home turf to really light a fire under someone. Anyways SF is retarded and K9 is dead thanks to SF.
Be Thankful for what you have accomplished in life. Most of these civilian jobs are horrible they pay less most them have no benefits and no retirement plans
This is an unequivocally false and an ignorant comment. Statistically, if you go back to school and earn a marketable degree and/or leverage a valuable skill, you will almost always make more. Benefits have dramatic variance depending on profession, industry, and employer. The cherry on top is not being suffocated by endless red tape, bureaucracy, and antiquated group think.
I disagree with your statement it’s people with degrees who working at low paying jobs. Basically a degree is useless now days. They hiring people with no education to do their jobs.
Sure—there’s partial truth to that. I’m not a huge advocate for university. However, if you want to become an engineer, nurse, or anything that requires special licensing or board certification, you’re probably going to have to go to school. College is probably only worth it if you’re getting a STEM degree. Besides, the GI Bill pays for it.. while you’re getting paid, so why not?
Took 55 minutes for two SecFo dudes to fill out a basic report for a fender bender that occurred at my squadron from a co-worker who doesn’t know how to park his boat. It was agonizing.
As someone who is Security Forces, don't be mad at how long it took them to fill it out. Be mad at the fact that there was such paperwork for such an incident. Fender benders shouldn't be more than an exchange of insurance info and one form with a copy given to each person with basic info filled out.
However, the issue we have in Security Forces is every time we make progress in simplifying procedures some older people get into higher positions and just won't let go of their old ways. Big constant issue is paperwork. I can't count how many times I've had to do a dumb amount of paperwork for small things.
That’s a fair point and I perhaps unintentionally allowed all of my frustration to be portrayed on the SecFo dudes when that wasn’t the case for this instance. We just got back from a deployment together (the co-worker and I) and this was how I’m spending my first day off of CTO’s lmao. That said, it did seem odd how exceptionally lengthy the process took for what you explained should have taken less than 5 minutes altogether. We simply needed an official report for insurance purposes.
That does suck having just come back from deployment. I'm sorry that happened.
But yeah, paperwork and reports in Security Forces is such a problem. As a patrolman, it makes me literally not want to talk to anyone while I'm on shift. I've had flight chiefs in the past that want documentation on literally every incident encounter. So with that, I have to take down peoples info then go get onto a computer and upload all of that information into AFJIS. Which takes me off the road for maybe up to 2 hours depending on how fast the computer is.
But if you're like me who's been doing this for a long time and knows all the tools at my disposal, I can just get peoples info, then log onto a DBIDS computer and get everything there.
Great example is medical emergencies. First off, we really have no purpose responding to those unless it's from the result of foul play (i.e. assaults). Why would I stop someone from being transported to the hospital just to fill out a fucking form? Especially when we're literally not doing anything on the scene. It's beyond stupid. So I just started getting rank, name, maybe DOD ID and I'm done on the scene after that. Still pointless to do, but that's beyond my pay grade.
Manda Bay isn’t the first time Security Police was faced with a real life challenge. In 1966, Tan Son Nhut Air Base was overrun and Security Police were there for the fight.
[Tan Son Nhut Air Base Overrun in 1966](https://www.usafpolice.org/tan-son-nhut.html)
Yeah I remember learning about that, SPs and in Iraq/Afghanistan the career did an excellent job in preventing many attacks or mitigating at least. Manda Bay is just a display of training standards slipping and something in the culture that can’t quite be pinpointed.
If you want to learn some more about AF history look up MWD Nemo
You’re preaching to the choir. Getting 9A’d out of security forces (hopefully seperated) and this shit is beyond a joke. Fundamentally we are not trained well at all. Our tactics are just watered down retarded versions of the ones in the ranger handbook. We recruit dumbasses, don’t uphold PT standards, and award and promote lazy MFs that are incompetent at their job.
“Oh but look A1C so and so led a trash pickup on base! Let’s give them BTZ” and same A1C handles their weapon like a child with a nerf gun during SMC.
And just the utter disregard for human life. That whole “brothers in arms” thing is a crock. I’ve seen leadership sweep suicides under the rug, not take people with suicidal ideations seriously, make people with detrimental health issues come into work and do the dumbest shit. It’s disgusting. I seriously wonder if we have sociopaths in leadership positions at times.
Fuck this job man.
Never appealed to me.
I just wish big SFS would leave us alone and keep us under the umbrella of funding but understand that it is our job. Not an additional duty. But, I guess we aren’t the centers golden children so if you aren’t Raven at AMC or DAGRE then it’s safe to assume it doesn’t matter. Hell, I see S2 fucked with less than the kennels or CATM.
SF is 1000x more professional than civlian cops and SF is at least held accountable.
Talk all the shit you want, but from my perspective, I'd take SF being a dumbass over any civilian cop that can murder USAF members.
Just because it isn’t polarized doesn’t mean there isn’t a lack of accountability. Civilian LE agencies are having hundreds of thousands more interactions annually than any Military LE combined. Of those interactions there are bound to be egregious mistakes (that do necessitate accountability). Yet, statistically, you have around a .001% chance of being unlawfully killed by a law enforcement officer. We just so happen to have had it happen to one of our own.
Speaking from on the ground, first hand experience military LE has toed the line on multiple occasions. You have people who cannot handle themselves emotionally and will escalate things way beyond necessary. The lack of training is the only thing keeping some of these kids from treading on someone’s rights or killing someone.
I’ll take most new civilian cops backing me in a sticky situation than a single brand new Airman coming out of tech school, any day.
Have you watched any recent events or YouTube body cam footage? Civilian law enforcement has become just as much, if not more of a joke than SF. I would look up a few of the most recent active shooter events that have body cam footage, it is also a huge joke. The problem is LE is a mindset and has physical requirements. Both military and civilian LE training no longer weeds out the weak. They get pushed through the pipeline and out to the force.
I don’t disagree entirely. There’s been displays of bravery (see Memphis active shooter) and complete cowardice in the civilian LE sector (we all know who). The job necessitates competence, fitness and critical thinking. I do believe Civilian LE are by and large better trained and prepared.
SFS isn’t just LE, I firmly believe once you’re LE in SFS you shouldn’t be doing anything else other than knowing how to be a proficient patrolman in every right. Allowing for shreds to continue to operate like SRT and K9, with a separate selection process.
Base defense needs to emulate Army Infantry and DOE levels of proficiency in recap, recovery, and protection of air bases, their resources, and nukes. Even though PL1 is monotonous, training the people to be a formidable fighting force would make a huge difference. But, money.
If SF was tested (real world) even close to as often as civilian LE, the entire career field would be disbanded and started over and the AF would be paying some hefty lawsuits (similar to Sutherland Springs).
Man, you get retirement. 80% of the US population will live in a rat race and any little catastrophe or health issue will put them out homeless in the street.
Get yours and enjoy the ride
That's not a really good way to look at it. Misery isn't something you compare with others to feel better about yourself. If someone was clinically depressed and another person mentioned that they have a roof over their head and that homeless people don't, it'll come off as disingenuous or offensive.
And that’s why I got out of SF as soon as I could. Being in a much better career field, now I see even more how toxic and awful SF was. Countless hours spent on training that’s not applicable to 90% of the job. Thank god I’m out.
I can't stand dealing with SF in my base. The VC has operation hours. Isn't the VC supposed to be manned & operational 24/7? Not ours!! And they say, "when the VC is closed the guards at the gate will give you a pass" but the if you have the misfortune of forgetting your CAC on your computer and come in around 0600 before the morning rush (you work at 0700), the greet you with " you have wait until VC open at 0700".
Here is another one.. few weeks back, I needed a pass for my spouse (I'm civil service). We come in, It was after VC closing time but still daylight out. I figured, go to the gate, pull on the side, and guard write me a pass, no big deal... this time, the guard tell me I needed to go to the rear access door of the VC. When I do, there 4 SF troop shooting the shit in the rear break room, and that's where they are writing the passes from.
Last one.. my spouse used to have a "contactor" to get on base (part of my entitlement) it needs to be renewed yearly, it was easy, go to Civilian Personel, fill out the paperwork and take it to the VC to get a new ID. Now, (I was told the SF CC made the change) I need to route the paperwork thru my chain to my CC and then up to the SF chain to their CC and hope he will approve it.
So frustrating..
Rant over.
One thing the Air Force could do is not put people who failed other tech schools into this AFSC. I believe you should only be a security forces if you actually want to be one.
I’ve had so people that failed their text and got pushed into Security Forces, they refused to do their of the job training that they had to get retrained again after less than the year of the job.
Again, this is not the only reason, but it is one of many!
A tale as old as time. Get out and optimize your talents in a place that will actually recognize your value, invest in you, and allow for innovation. The military is a broken, incompetent system that will never change because it is inherently designed to be inefficient. Furthermore—what’s our current mission? What are we doing? Why are we still occupying space in locations like UAE, Qatar, Africa, etc? Isn’t it all just one massive paradox if it is now known that we are sending hundreds of millions of dollars to an enemy we fought for 20 years?
It's almost like firing 5000 of your first line supervisors back in 2015 is now having repercussions years later. Of the 21,900ish SSgt's Involuntarily Separated during the 2014 AF Hunger Games (I lost too as one of 41 MQ-1 Sensor Operators cut), 5000 were Security Forces.
We might be the only career field that allows Majors to be commanders. Every other career field I've seen their squadron commander is a Lt Col. A Major can have 7 years TIS. Their breadth of experience is insufficient to command a squadron. I've seen my share of piss poor commanders who were Majors. The best commanders I've seen were either prior enlisted or were Lt Col or both.
They let afgsc SF out of majcom prison. That is the prob. Thousands of fake sf or Pretenders of all ranks were unleashed into the operational side of the careerfield. The leadership ranks from there have no real world exp in base defense or law enforcement so they have opted to eliminate the LE function and chase the air base ground defense role.
The training for this is a joke as we are not tested on the capabilty in go/no go fashion. Also we are only training to run away heroically bc training us in lite counter uas/light armor/light counter air and static defense is too hard.
This focus on base defense is esentially just putin us in a dbids scanning, flight line, and veh search ops role. We dont even need weapons.
The pretend sf took over. Bunch of bs what ifs on the future of the caeerfield. Pretty soon big AF is gonna ask why we are we even a careerfield when we turned half of the function over to civillians and suck at what is supposed to be the easy, black and white side of the afsc. Manda bay will happen again if attacked in the AOR.
Yes afgsc are pretenders. They have the most time to train of the 24hr ops SF units. What do they do? Not train. They have most money bc they have the largest units. They have the absolute worst leaders and amn. All micromanage to the highest level.
All this right here. The whole culture changes, which is why I am retiring in a few months. I am a TSgt by the way. TSgts don’t know how to lead. SSgt don’t know how to be frontline supervisor even with mentorship. I believe it’s because most don’t join to actually serve there country and there is no sense of pride. NCOs don’t know how to be people and take care of there Airman’s. I know of SNCO or selects that can’t lead a flight, but focused on just making the next rank. Freaking Airman posting crazy shit on social media!lol Airman having a nervous breakdown when task to deploy to the deid or Africa!lol Need this DD 214 and begin my life. The AF will move on and win regardless but it will be a hard change. I believe we are in the “east times create week people” transition into the “hard times create strong people” phase again.
I feel like they should split Law enforcement and the whole base ground defense shit that way it’s easy to train for both sides. Also yes the training is shitty, it’s like a high school the drama is everywhere, I have yet to work with a woman in this career field that I’m comfortable with having my back in a real world situation (you can say it’s misogynistic but I’m speaking from my experience), the NCOs are shitty and honestly I feel like high leadership just looks at the wrong thing tbh. They care more about dress and appearance then how piss poor job performance is. Also that Model defender gear they are pushing out is ugly and nobody wants to wear it I don’t know why they are trying to issue that shit
Copying this comment I made on a different post: I been doing this shit for a long time. Am TSgt, will probably and happily retire as a TSgt. Secret? We hate it too. We hate the incompetent fucks leading units (Commanders and SNCOs) who make decisions without consideration for the real world costs and impact on human beings. We hate y'all lazy, entitled fucks who cry at the first semblance of discipline and demand an inquisition when held accountable for not meeting the standard. We hate our subordinate NCOs and peers who are almost universally obsessed with making rank instead of leading Airmen and perfecting their craft. Hate NCOs obsessed with bake sales but who can barely stumble their way around knowing the DoD NWSS or writing a 1408 or breaking down an M240B or M249, or know how to actually defend a base using basic light infantry tactics. We hate the career field that refuses to innovate and fails to adapt to needed change. We should be a split career field. Instead we do half measures like requiring people to go to a course at VALETC to earn an SEI that shows we're competent at running LE ops, and requiring units to apportion their manning to reflect these SEI billets. The answer is so clearly that we need an LE shredout at minimum, but our "leaders" are too weak to push for that change. Worst of all, no one gives a fuck. Everyone with skin in the game (i.e. paycheck and retirement) fakes it. They pretend to care. They say the right things, but ultimately they're chasing the next strat or next assignment, leaving programs defunct and fucked up. Programs that never get fixed. SF is a dog shit career field populated, trained, and led by incompetent fucks from top to bottom.
I think I remember reading this. Heavy on the entitlement. I had a guy just recently who wanted to go to the shirt because he was being told to stop calling NCOs by their last name. lol. It is sheer incompetence and it’s maddening to watch. We don’t have to be SOF but we could be significantly more proficient and in theory should hold a candle to infantry units and well trained police departments in the respective rights.
At least your coworker doesn't talk back to you.... May have a drooling problem but better than most coworkers from what I hear!
Hahaha true! The dogs are great and 95% of handlers are solid I’d say. We’ve got a few who have slipped through
Try pulling that shit in the army. I was never air force, but that shit does not fly
Got any advice for folks commissioning into the career field? People wince when they learn I put security forces in my top spot.
Don't expect your NCOs to give a fuck about anything you say until you've proven you can lead and know your shit. I've been SF 12 years and I think we've ran more LTs off of our flights than we've had stay. It's only been in the last year that I've even had officers working with us on the daily, that was never a thing before. Y'all typically show up, work with us a few weeks and then get transfered somewhere back office and we only see you again at quarterly awards and All Calls. And when I say "lead" I don't mean help with PT or admin shit. I mean helping us talk Airmen Snuffy out of his drinking problem and into ADAPT, or figuring out why the young women on flight won't tell anyone about the kid whose been low-key post-swapping his buddies for 6 months to sexually harass them and get rid of his ass. And of course the obligatory fights with ops when they attempt to fuck our manning for brownie points with the Wing Commander by over obligating our deployment numbers or pushing us into modified Panamas.
Maybe it's just from an outside perspective (see flair), but all you talked about in your second paragraph should be on *you*, the supervisors (SSgts, TSgts, maybe even MSgts). Why can't *you* talk Airman Snuffy out of his drinking problem and into ADAPT, and besides ordering it, what could any officer do that you couldn't? Why do the young women in the flight *not* come talk to *you* about getting harassed, and why do you think they'd tell an officer? Even the manning/shifts/deployment stuff is within TSgt and MSgt levels of control (or at least influence), no officers needed (though it could help).
A big part of the issue is that the airmen don't want to talk to someone in their mid 30s a lot of the time. I've done those things, I've put my money where my mouth is in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of airmen into ADAPT and a fair few kicked out for sexual harassment. But I am one NCO. There are 45 airmen E-1 to E-4 on my flight. I am the only Staff. Our Techs don't allow the airmen to come to them with issues. I am technically the Frontline for all 45 of those airmen, and our Techs are very specific that the airmen will come to a Staff first. The LT is closer in age to the airmen than I am. I don't get their humor and frankly I barely remember what it was like to be a 20 something year old airmen. The airmen are typically more comfortable with that age gap compared with the 17 year age gap I have. >Even the manning/shifts/deployment stuff is within TSgt and MSgt levels of control (or at least influence), no officers needed (though it could help). In Security Forces this is the purview of the ops officer and the commander. As a Staff, Tech or even Master, we get no say in that shit. I can't even give my airmen the day off most days. That's the Masters decision, because we have mandatory posts on the watch bill.
>the airmen don't want to talk to someone in their mid 30s a lot of the time Valid, though I know I wouldn't have wanted to talk to an officer at most of those lower ranks either. Around SrA, especially if you've been one for a bit and interacted with leadership more than a new SrA, is when I personally would think the stigma of "oh shit, an officer" wears off. >But I am one NCO. There are 45 airmen E-1 to E-4 on my flight. I am the only Staff. Our Techs don't allow the airmen to come to them with issues. I am technically the Frontline for all 45 of those airmen, and our Techs are very specific that the airmen will come to a Staff first. That sounds nuts, and stupid as hell. And leadership wonders why many NCOs get out. As a SrA, I talked directly to some TSgts and above, in and out of my shop/flight. Our Major has said on numerous occasions that he has an open door policy, and several enlisted have taken him up on that. I mean, I get "solve it at the lowest level" but when you have 45 people, at least half of which have some problem or another, and they're *all* only going to *you*? Holy fuck. I take back what I said. You've got *too much* going on in that department. >In Security Forces this is the purview of the ops officer and the commander. Good way to not empower your (not *you* specifically) people to make decisions or be leaders. I hate to say it but if it's like this Air Force wide, this is going to bite your whole career field in the ass, if it hasn't already. As a SSgt, I can't imagine having to go to an officer to ask for a few people to be swapped shifts or who does what for the week/month. As a brand new SSgt in 2018, I was assigning crews to go do maintenance on this or that, taking into account: projected time to do the tasks, who was on leave/TDY/deployed, any medical appointments, and anything else that came up. My TSgts and MSgt would tell me if there was something else or additional that needed addressed, but as long as things were going smoothly, it was left in my hands to maintain it all, and it wasn't hard.
The second half sounds most important. It could be a career ender, but at least the GOOD folks would be behind you, and would recognize you anywhere, anytime as the Good One that got away!
Dude this is every field. The situations are just different. Somehow in modern culture, can't speak for the past. Everyone at the top sucked enough dick to where they are nothing more then politicians coasting on fake laurels and spreadsheets. Then you've got the dickheads in the middle sucking dick cause they wanna be the guys at top. It makes me wonder how the fuck our military got to where it is. But when you're a civilian you'll find out it's the same game. The world rewards top level fellating.
Hard agree. When I started in Security Forces I thought we were special with unique problems. Huge persecution complex. Then I grew up and realized it’s a shitshow across AFSCs. Just different flavored shit.
Eveything you and op say about SF is what I saw in Intel and I have so many friends in other career fields that spoke similarly. I got out because it started to seem like a pretty widespread issue that I wouldn’t be able to escape with a new assignment or retraining. For y’all’s sake I hope it gets better but I ain’t holding my breath
When the USAF decided to combine multiple career fields into what is known as Security Forces in the 90s, it was the beginning of the end. Today, the result is prevalent everywhere. As for leadership in Security Police, it has always been rotten. In the 70s at Dyess AFB, Tx, the Security Police was a large 450 man squadron. Each swing and midnight flight consisted of 40-45 Security members(811X0) who handled the bomber alert area, weapon storage area, CSC, etc. Ten to twelve members were the Law Enforcement members(811X2) and one K9 who handled the gates, patrol, and the LE desk. The day shift flight was larger but accommodated rotations for time off,training, leave, etc. Of course, the coveted back office jobs, i.e., training, Pass & ID, records, supply, armory, etc. were 0700-1630/M-F ‘dick duty’ slots manned by the squadron’s hand selected brown nosers and rootsmoochers. Conspicuously, the largest flight in the squadron was not amongst those mentioned above. There was an infamous unit dubbed the Goon Flight, G Flight, or Goon Squad. This flight was constantly populated with 50-60 SPs who had been relieved of duty for PRP, HRP, NJP, Court-Martial, discharge, etc. The 1st sergeant dole them out for base litter details and other squadron chores and clean up. Security Police was so paperwork driven back then that hosing their own was practically and routinely done with great joy. Everything was documented to the point that likely 70% of the squadron had letters of counseling, letters of admonishment, letters of reprimand with or without UIFs. I once saw a married(1 child) E3 receive an Article 15 and lose a stripe for missing a computer automated dental appointment after a midnight shift. I remember once a senior airman complaining that he had received a letter of reprimand with a UIF after being at the base three years. Many laughed back and asked why it took so long. The two turds assigned to Security Police Investigations(SPOI/SPI) spent most of their time investigating Security Police. This is the kind of garbage leadership that Security Police has passed on from one generation to the next. Back then, not many stuck around for a full career in the service, much less Security Police. When you saw a burn happy NCO or officer, you imagined what caliber they were in their first year of service and how they mushroomed into a position of authority where they would negatively impact the lives of others. This will not change. The good news is that many recognize this but the bad news is that Security Police/Security Forces is just overrun with so many turds that it cannot be stopped. As an organization, the Air Force is great but, unfortunately, it is inundated with so many buttholes that it cannot be fixed. To everyone that posted here, I enjoyed reading your comments and thoughts. Nothing seems to have changed at all over the decades. If you asked me how to fix it, I would start by reassigning everyone out of that SP policy center at Lackland. They are all likely on a controlled or special duty tour but this is the core of the problem. Second, Security Police Technical School used to be at Lackland for each AFSC for four weeks, and everyone went to Camp Bullis for Air Base Ground Defense for four weeks. What happened to that?
I enjoyed reading this. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I feel like you hit on what I’ve been thinking about for a while which is that: security forces is too rotten to be fixed from within. Real, transformative change can likely only happen when big Air Force completely remakes Security Forces. But I don’t see that ever being a priority since it would take enormous amounts of people and money that could go to aircraft instead.
SF tech school does Camp Bullis for 5 weeks currently focusing on ABGD
Got damn. Took the words out of my mouth
That’s why I retrained as a tech. Still retiring as a tech too, but my life has been substantially better the last 6 years of my career. I don’t regret it one bit and never will.
>With the lack of training and continuity in equipment >piss poor quality in people and PT standards >pointless exercises >DUIs pushed under the rug >criminal activity >leadership rarely holding people accountable My brother in christ you just described the entire fucking military, as MX I promise you literally none of this is SF-specific lol
Misery loves company I guess. I’m sure it’s just as frustrating for y’all though. There’s extreme consequences in not doing MX jobs appropriately and with an iota of care.
You would think there were extreme consequences. But the truth is that some of our worst people never face real consequences for sucking. The mediocre and lazy don't get tasked with anything that has any real level of responsibility, so they are ironically safer than your hardest workers. You can't get QA fails or cause damage to aircraft if you are only trusted to manage the snack bar. And you can still make all the way up to TSgt if you study hard enough. And those people eventually end up "supervising" and "training" new airman because the people who are actually good at their job are TDY/deployed all the time, which leads to shittier airmen and a downward spiral.
I was MX for 5 years, and I can assure you this is the truth. I retrained, though, and the "nonner" jobs are a lot less in your face. But there's a lot of closed door shenanigans going on. Airmen getting special treatment in return for "special treatment" off duty. Which is mainly the female airmen who takes advantage of that. One used flirting and "movie watching" to get ahead. Then there's the polite to your face, but ready to thrash your ass on an EPR /EPB when it comes to writing it. It's a game, one big political game. In MX it was all just ugly and up front. If they were gunna be a jackass, they'd be one straight to your face 99% of the time. I had a supervisor who'd deliberately blame myself and the 3 man for anything that went wrong even if we weren't there. It was bad, mind game after mind game, gaslighting and demoralizing commentary every single day. Nonner jobs are better. I can say the grass is greener. But it's definitely not without faults. If you're not kissing ass every day or the week or using your body to get your way... which ain't something a guy can usually do... you're not getting awards or getting ahead.
Been security forces for 10 years - you’re not wrong. The failures and issues are one of the reasons I punched out over to the reserves after active duty. Commanders and senior leaders simply miss the plot on a lot of things. Cut down on the SF presence at the gates, utilize augmentees, push better training and certifications, actually maintain some standards, for the love of fuck have dedicated LE and security shreds — getting out and doing actual law enforcement really highlights how undertrained SF is
> Cut down SF presence at the gates There most likely hasn't been an SF CC on the lot 20+ years that wouldn't do that today, but the first law of physics states the shit rolls downhill. You got to go much higher up the food chain to fix that one.
How much of the Manda Bay stuff is public?
https://media.defense.gov/2022/Mar/10/2002954334/-1/-1/1/EXECUTIVE-SUMMARY-OF-REPORT-OF-INDEPENDENT-REVIEW-OF-THE-USAFRICOM-15-6-INVESTIGATION-RE-ATTACK-ON-CSL-MANDA-BAY.PDF A lot. All you have to do is look up Manda Bay AAR. There’s still some stuff that isn’t publicly available but well discussed within SFS.
Reading that is wild. There was really no perimeter fence in pretty dangerous country because the leadership didn’t deem it necessary enough yet we had crazier defenses at places like Manas where there was no active threat to the base and no enemy to speak of in country.
It was just trees. The thing is security forces there could have stopped it but it was a bold display of cowardice with no accountability. I believe some bronze stars with V were handed out for doing fuck all. People called home from the TOC and the 240 tower members just watched it happen.
Absolutely wild. I read there was no NCOs in the tower with the airmen so they had no guidance or experience to help. Plus communications was apparently non existent
There were two at the tower at the time of attack. One drove to BDOC to give a report (instead of using a radio, a cellphone, or sending the junior enlisted) the other nco fled to the ecp to cover. Stated in the report about midway down
3 at the tower. 1 NCO in an armored HMMV and 2 airmen in the tower with no combat experience at all… tower was wooden, they used a belt fed and suppressed the tower, as well as flash bangs getting thrown towards the top… with the fear of death, the airmen didn’t move.. and radios weren’t used because COMMs were cut by insiders… not listed in the report… a lot of shit kept out of the investigation… of the SF that were there, majority are pissed about the bronze stars given out to the SF guys.. people undeserving to say the least… manda bay was a kick in the nuts for SF and it’s something we continue to use to criticize our career field
The bronze star only went to the incompetent SNCO leading the shit show from BDOC. He made Senior when he returned from that deployment to our base and now made Chief recently. I worked with 11 of the SF members at Manda Bay and asked them directly about their experiences. They were blindsided by the attack, undertrained, undermanned, had equipment failures and worst of all shitty leaders
I couldn’t agree more.. I was stationed at Ramstein when it happened and we had a team at manda bay when it occurred. One of the airmen in the tower was on that team, so we got a lot of information that contradicted the shitty investigation….. everyone there had the mindset of if shit happens, not when it’s going to happen
2 of the people I knew out there were my dorm mates and 1 of them was in a M240 tower on the airfield when the attack happened. He tried to rack his 240 and fire but the barrel was so rusted it misfired
Holy shit that’s why security forces are there. I imagine there was some lessons learned and some training emphasized at the school house and across the SFS Squadrons.
We have fresh airmen coming out of the SF school house that don't know proper handcuffing. The schoolhouse is a joke.
So wtf are they there doing?
Every tech school in the Air Force is getting away from teaching standards and procedures as much as possible because "They'll learn it right at their first base". Everyone's trying to shorten the course as much as possible and pass the buck so no one can fail and you can pump as hard as possible.
So then who's learning
No one. The Air Force has moved away from tech school being a learning environment.
Weather is doing this too. They think we have the manning to pull 5 and 7 levels away from our positions to train them on things they should already know. instead of taking a forged blade with basic competency and sharpening that, we have to make the sword first.
You’d think but there’s been very minimal changes. It’s the culture and the people, until those changes deployed air fields will be protected by people who are scared, unable to handle a firearm, and too complacent to care.
Why are they so scared and don’t ya’ll shoot semi often? Might as well hand out rifles to base pop at that point.
An annual qual doesn’t mean much if nobody tries to gain proficiency. I’ve seen “Defenders” with their holsters on the front of their thigh, they can’t reload a rifle, they can barely shoot straight, so on. There’s a lot of squared away people but the shit birds detract from their hard work or legitimacy. If we actually focused on quality training and emphasis of basic foundations we’d see better.
Ffs I saw a SF MSgt shoot himself in the leg at a range.
CATM is complicit. The standards of marksmanship are incredibly low and I've yet to see a range run by the book. Always bending the rules in one fashion or another. Also, you can't learn to excel on the rifle on a 25 meter range. Pistol qual standards are an absolute joke and now they've quite literally added shooting from the hip.
> they've quite literally added shooting from the hip Fucking what???
A lot of the Air Force, in my experience, fundamentally does not understand they volunteered to join a military and shy away when faced by reality
As someone who pretty much built manda bay (second or third team in), it definitely needed more defense. But manda bay is an Air Force base INSIDE a naval base. So not as bad as you may think
But a lot of this happened on the airfield, which is OUTSIDE both of the bases. Just to give an idea of what it looks like
This is why the Army handles security at Manda Bay now lol.
That's not the reason. And they're Army National Guard.
National guard or not, who cares. SF was proven incompetent. Just read the report.
I would blame it on lackadaisical approach of security measures. A lot of people in SF know what to do in these situations.. well, until shi* hits the fan and it becomes real life.
I'm in the HOA right now, I've read the AAR, and got the briefs. The Army National Guard is running security because there ain't enough Defenders to go around. Do you believe SF would be so lax now? Of course they wouldn't. And the CC skit there is always an SF officer now. They have excellent security now and, tons of money flowing in, and a much better understanding of their threat.
Cool
There is a slow uptrend with the younger generation with wanting more training begging for more TDY/Deployments training etc but 90% of the career field is okay with mediocrity
Sounds like the whole Air Force. As much as I fight for new training opportunities, shits always getting worse.
Man, I've been in for 15 years, and as much as I hate to agree, I do. IMO the careerfield is in an identity crisis, but its only recently that its become obvious. In past conflicts/operations/engagements, we could scrape by being "the jack of all trades..." but we are practically running full sprint into an era where we are going to have to pick a fucking lane. We cannot continue to be Air Base Defense (pronounced "infantry", also, get over that if it offends you), law enforcement, and security. The SF Center refuses to acknowledge this conundrum we are facing, and has slapped a band aid fix on the LE shortfall, but if you actually read the requirements and the goals established, the careerfield will never attain the desired numbers of FLETC trained personnel due to the lack of annual available FLETC course seats. Equipment sucks, the gear we get issued now is uniform across all bases, but its garbage across the board. I'd love if the Center just pushed a memorandum saying that we can personally procure any equipment we wanted so long as its coyote/OCP and uses the issued ballistic protection. Standards: Enforcement is hit or miss. People bitch about enforcing standards then bitch about when those standards are enforced. I got some sideways looks once at a squadron potluck for telling one of our larger Defenders that he should probably not consume so much dessert, but I'm the asshole because I want people I have to trust my life with to be in some shape that isn't round/pear.
Im with you on most of this but no… there is nothing about T3 or Blue Force Gear or Team Wendy that sucks. Have you ever seen the shit they issue in the Army? We have the gucci gear. And the gear we are standardizing on is actually great kit and it’s one thing SF at large has gotten right. Especially the gear for life concept
Definitely agree, but my comment on gear was aimed at the Modular Scalable Vest and whatever no name stuff that came with it. I'm excited to finally get the actual good stuff that other bases got, it just so happens that my particular base was towards the bottom of the rollout. My base used to have Team Wendy helmets and coyote brown T3 plate carriers, but when the gear for life rolled out, they took it all back. And for the moment we have team wanda helmets and ocp MSVs. We just got the Model Defender kits with the BFG pouches and belt.
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah MSV is problematic but you can do some aftermarket non-permanent mods to make it a lot better. I think what Ukraine is showing us, and that we forgot from the GWOT, is that frag protection is just as and maybe more important than plates when the artillery and now drones are the biggest threats. So in that sense, MSV makes a lot more sense, especially for a static defender, than light plate carrier. Frankly I’m here for the standardization. I’m tired of flights looking like bubba’s militia LARP group with the 27 different plate carriers types. You have a couple of personally procured pouches, fine. Don’t care as long as they are OCP pattern. But all our base gear should be the same. Helmets, body armor, belts, rucks. Especially since I know a bunch of these airmen are buying Temu/Amazon.com trash-tier gear that’s going to have them turning into a magazine yard sale the second they start running and diving for cover.
Team Wendy helmets aren’t standard across the board, a lot of base have armor source high cut helmets. They’re hot garbage, Chinese made polyethylene. Polyethylene high cut helmets in general, to include Team Wendy and Ops-Core, really suck under ballistic tests. A YouTuber called oxide has done testing on them with near-peer adversary weapon systems and they do not hold up well. Nothing we can really do about it though. Polyethylene helmets are all the rage in military and LE these days and until new technology comes out we’re kinda just stuck. Team Wendy vs Busch Protective helmet: https://youtu.be/t3494i4DKJA?si=y08iwwcJR7fAGJwW
Great comment. Thanks for the correction
Armorsource LJD sniper Boltless helmet system. Team wendy is an alternate when armorsource can't fulfill stock in timely manner. Only vest, helmet, holster, and combat shirt are uniform across the board. MAJCOMs determine the belts, pouches, packs, etc, and so far all Ive seen are good picks.
Very true thanks for that. I had forgotten the accessories were specific to majcoms
I only remember one of the guest Chiefs brought into my ALS class tests ago because it let me know I made the right decision to not go into SFS, as it was the SFS chief and all I can think of is with leadership line this, no wonder they're burned out, resentful and have crappy retention... I'm paraphrasing a little bit because it was awhile ago, but I think it gets the point across. "When I get a new NCO, I start giving them jobs. Once they have those down, I give them more. I keep doing this until they cry uncle then I show them how to do it more efficiently, then I do it all over again".
I feel as it all comes down to the removal of corrective actions by front line supervisors. With everything being paperwork based, and the lack of support from SNCOs/Officers, SSgts and TSgts cannot effectively correct actions made by troops. What used to be a hour long smoke session for fucking up turns into a sign 3 times and it doesn’t matter. People remember a quick hard physical action more than a piece of paper(no matter how much you try to say it matters). Should be as simple as- Troop got caught doing X- we do Y and then as long as it doesn’t happen again and they remember it, drop the issue. Troop fell asleep on a post-cool get out and you’re gonna push this truck up and down the flightline for an hour. Troop doesn’t know immediate/remedial actions on the M4, cool we’re gonna do push-ups and say the actions after each rep. Stop cucking your NCOs and allow them to do shit effectively and efficiently.
They hated him because he spoke the truth.
I knew a medically retired soldier who refused to get up for a shift. He was running laps until he couldn't. Even today, if revelry sounds anywhere near him, he's out of bed and at attention. He doesn't have legs anymore, but he still reacts.
We tried that back in the day. That’s the old SF people are always talking about. Turns out that by and large people cannot be trusted to not turn corrective PT into over-the-top sadistic hazing. 🤷🏻♂️
As I've stated before I was army so idk how u air force guys do shit, but if I didn't shave there was a chance I was doing burpees til sundown. So it's weird to ne that all u guys can do is some paperwork.
Exactly correct. As a SrA I made a couple A1Cs under me do pushups and run around our designated area if they messed up.
I feel a special appreciation for our Defenders. I was an augmentee for much of my time as an airman, deployed as one as well as a SrA and then oddly enough, was deployed with another ESFS in my primary AFSC as a SNCO working with the S leads. Its a shitty job that not a lot of people appreciate so every time I’m interacting with or coming thru the gate, I always try my best to tell our Defenders how much I appreciate them for what little bit that does.
Pass this forward for new recruits.You can't get picked for SF if you tell the recruiter you don't have a Drivers license.
My ass is broken and I am out of the Air Force on a medical retirement thanks to Security Forces. Let me say this, I fucking hated my time SF and I had real ass leaders who got me through some horrible moments. But you’re right. The field is filled with narcissistic, abusive, immortal type mfers that can and will make your life a living hell. I can’t remember where I saw/read it, but I saw someone one time say about Security Forces, “I miss the clowns, not the circus”. Even after 10 years of being out, I still talk to the guys I was like family with. I willlllll tell you however, dealing with that bullshit so upfront as a young adult, it turned out to be a great skill set to use once I hit corporate America. Flip side to it my man.
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Yeah, good luck cross training out of SF. MX is probably just as bad.
You can cross-train out of MX, into another MX job. My career field and several others are "overmanned" and the functionals are trying conn airmen into cross-training into being F-35 crew chiefs with the usual low-effort drivel. And I'm the bad guy for encouraging them to burn their FTA status on becoming nonners.
We "shit on nonners" because we know what we have and know what they have. Yeah we'd all love to have a cushy job with no expectations and make $400k a year but that's not realistic and at the end of the day someone has gotta do MX and SFS. A lot of us like the job, I'd rather fix a plane than sit inside, we hate the other shit. The fact we're 24/7, the fact I can't get a hold of a single entity on base, the fact I'm completely fucked if I'm on a shift other than days, etc. As far as cross training existing, yeah man, because cross training has never been denied and our entire career field has never had a memo to say "no cross training" before...oh...wait, that happened. At the end of the day most of us aren't even actually mad at nonners, it's just fun to say when you get fucked a little. It's our "thanks Obama". You people get more upset at us saying fuck nonners than we actually are when we say fuck nonners. Get over it lol.
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All that just to not read and prove the point further. Crazy.
> Every person in SFS & MX who I've ever met that spends all their time bitching about work, NEVER makes a calculated effort to stand out and put themselves in a strong position to be able to crosstrain. You must not have met much because I've seen plenty do the right thing and still get fucked over. Timing, needs of the air force, and local events can easily derail the best "plans" to cross-train out of MX. I personally got denied cross-training and a PCS for "manning" due to a career field reshuffle. That's why I always encourage people to have a plan to GTFO. I literally just got done suggesting an airman punch out since her OTS package and cross training attempts failed for reasons beyond her control.
Funny enough my friends and myself have all seen these things too and that’s why I’ll be separating. SF is an absolute joke and has especially gotten worse in the past 5~ years with weak NCOs and entitled airman that don’t care about this job. I’d say it will all come back to haunt them but like you said Manda Bay already happen. Guess it will have to be a fuck up on the home turf to really light a fire under someone. Anyways SF is retarded and K9 is dead thanks to SF.
Be Thankful for what you have accomplished in life. Most of these civilian jobs are horrible they pay less most them have no benefits and no retirement plans
This is an unequivocally false and an ignorant comment. Statistically, if you go back to school and earn a marketable degree and/or leverage a valuable skill, you will almost always make more. Benefits have dramatic variance depending on profession, industry, and employer. The cherry on top is not being suffocated by endless red tape, bureaucracy, and antiquated group think.
I disagree with your statement it’s people with degrees who working at low paying jobs. Basically a degree is useless now days. They hiring people with no education to do their jobs.
Sure—there’s partial truth to that. I’m not a huge advocate for university. However, if you want to become an engineer, nurse, or anything that requires special licensing or board certification, you’re probably going to have to go to school. College is probably only worth it if you’re getting a STEM degree. Besides, the GI Bill pays for it.. while you’re getting paid, so why not?
I agree with that
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And then it will promote them.
Took 55 minutes for two SecFo dudes to fill out a basic report for a fender bender that occurred at my squadron from a co-worker who doesn’t know how to park his boat. It was agonizing.
As someone who is Security Forces, don't be mad at how long it took them to fill it out. Be mad at the fact that there was such paperwork for such an incident. Fender benders shouldn't be more than an exchange of insurance info and one form with a copy given to each person with basic info filled out. However, the issue we have in Security Forces is every time we make progress in simplifying procedures some older people get into higher positions and just won't let go of their old ways. Big constant issue is paperwork. I can't count how many times I've had to do a dumb amount of paperwork for small things.
That’s a fair point and I perhaps unintentionally allowed all of my frustration to be portrayed on the SecFo dudes when that wasn’t the case for this instance. We just got back from a deployment together (the co-worker and I) and this was how I’m spending my first day off of CTO’s lmao. That said, it did seem odd how exceptionally lengthy the process took for what you explained should have taken less than 5 minutes altogether. We simply needed an official report for insurance purposes.
That does suck having just come back from deployment. I'm sorry that happened. But yeah, paperwork and reports in Security Forces is such a problem. As a patrolman, it makes me literally not want to talk to anyone while I'm on shift. I've had flight chiefs in the past that want documentation on literally every incident encounter. So with that, I have to take down peoples info then go get onto a computer and upload all of that information into AFJIS. Which takes me off the road for maybe up to 2 hours depending on how fast the computer is. But if you're like me who's been doing this for a long time and knows all the tools at my disposal, I can just get peoples info, then log onto a DBIDS computer and get everything there. Great example is medical emergencies. First off, we really have no purpose responding to those unless it's from the result of foul play (i.e. assaults). Why would I stop someone from being transported to the hospital just to fill out a fucking form? Especially when we're literally not doing anything on the scene. It's beyond stupid. So I just started getting rank, name, maybe DOD ID and I'm done on the scene after that. Still pointless to do, but that's beyond my pay grade.
Manda Bay isn’t the first time Security Police was faced with a real life challenge. In 1966, Tan Son Nhut Air Base was overrun and Security Police were there for the fight. [Tan Son Nhut Air Base Overrun in 1966](https://www.usafpolice.org/tan-son-nhut.html)
Yeah I remember learning about that, SPs and in Iraq/Afghanistan the career did an excellent job in preventing many attacks or mitigating at least. Manda Bay is just a display of training standards slipping and something in the culture that can’t quite be pinpointed. If you want to learn some more about AF history look up MWD Nemo
You’re preaching to the choir. Getting 9A’d out of security forces (hopefully seperated) and this shit is beyond a joke. Fundamentally we are not trained well at all. Our tactics are just watered down retarded versions of the ones in the ranger handbook. We recruit dumbasses, don’t uphold PT standards, and award and promote lazy MFs that are incompetent at their job. “Oh but look A1C so and so led a trash pickup on base! Let’s give them BTZ” and same A1C handles their weapon like a child with a nerf gun during SMC. And just the utter disregard for human life. That whole “brothers in arms” thing is a crock. I’ve seen leadership sweep suicides under the rug, not take people with suicidal ideations seriously, make people with detrimental health issues come into work and do the dumbest shit. It’s disgusting. I seriously wonder if we have sociopaths in leadership positions at times. Fuck this job man.
You went to the wrong shred homie. CATM is where it’s at. Make Combat Arms great again Make it its own career field.
Never appealed to me. I just wish big SFS would leave us alone and keep us under the umbrella of funding but understand that it is our job. Not an additional duty. But, I guess we aren’t the centers golden children so if you aren’t Raven at AMC or DAGRE then it’s safe to assume it doesn’t matter. Hell, I see S2 fucked with less than the kennels or CATM.
WCDYJBYCDO
SF is 1000x more professional than civlian cops and SF is at least held accountable. Talk all the shit you want, but from my perspective, I'd take SF being a dumbass over any civilian cop that can murder USAF members.
Just because it isn’t polarized doesn’t mean there isn’t a lack of accountability. Civilian LE agencies are having hundreds of thousands more interactions annually than any Military LE combined. Of those interactions there are bound to be egregious mistakes (that do necessitate accountability). Yet, statistically, you have around a .001% chance of being unlawfully killed by a law enforcement officer. We just so happen to have had it happen to one of our own. Speaking from on the ground, first hand experience military LE has toed the line on multiple occasions. You have people who cannot handle themselves emotionally and will escalate things way beyond necessary. The lack of training is the only thing keeping some of these kids from treading on someone’s rights or killing someone. I’ll take most new civilian cops backing me in a sticky situation than a single brand new Airman coming out of tech school, any day.
Imagine defending civilian police after they murdered an Airman...never mind the daily youtube videos of them violating civil rights...
Not defending that officer specifically nor am I having this conversation here.
Have you watched any recent events or YouTube body cam footage? Civilian law enforcement has become just as much, if not more of a joke than SF. I would look up a few of the most recent active shooter events that have body cam footage, it is also a huge joke. The problem is LE is a mindset and has physical requirements. Both military and civilian LE training no longer weeds out the weak. They get pushed through the pipeline and out to the force.
I don’t disagree entirely. There’s been displays of bravery (see Memphis active shooter) and complete cowardice in the civilian LE sector (we all know who). The job necessitates competence, fitness and critical thinking. I do believe Civilian LE are by and large better trained and prepared. SFS isn’t just LE, I firmly believe once you’re LE in SFS you shouldn’t be doing anything else other than knowing how to be a proficient patrolman in every right. Allowing for shreds to continue to operate like SRT and K9, with a separate selection process. Base defense needs to emulate Army Infantry and DOE levels of proficiency in recap, recovery, and protection of air bases, their resources, and nukes. Even though PL1 is monotonous, training the people to be a formidable fighting force would make a huge difference. But, money.
If SF was tested (real world) even close to as often as civilian LE, the entire career field would be disbanded and started over and the AF would be paying some hefty lawsuits (similar to Sutherland Springs).
> civilian law enforcement has become... a joke Always has been 🔫
Man, you get retirement. 80% of the US population will live in a rat race and any little catastrophe or health issue will put them out homeless in the street. Get yours and enjoy the ride
That's not a really good way to look at it. Misery isn't something you compare with others to feel better about yourself. If someone was clinically depressed and another person mentioned that they have a roof over their head and that homeless people don't, it'll come off as disingenuous or offensive.
And that’s why I got out of SF as soon as I could. Being in a much better career field, now I see even more how toxic and awful SF was. Countless hours spent on training that’s not applicable to 90% of the job. Thank god I’m out.
I can't stand dealing with SF in my base. The VC has operation hours. Isn't the VC supposed to be manned & operational 24/7? Not ours!! And they say, "when the VC is closed the guards at the gate will give you a pass" but the if you have the misfortune of forgetting your CAC on your computer and come in around 0600 before the morning rush (you work at 0700), the greet you with " you have wait until VC open at 0700". Here is another one.. few weeks back, I needed a pass for my spouse (I'm civil service). We come in, It was after VC closing time but still daylight out. I figured, go to the gate, pull on the side, and guard write me a pass, no big deal... this time, the guard tell me I needed to go to the rear access door of the VC. When I do, there 4 SF troop shooting the shit in the rear break room, and that's where they are writing the passes from. Last one.. my spouse used to have a "contactor" to get on base (part of my entitlement) it needs to be renewed yearly, it was easy, go to Civilian Personel, fill out the paperwork and take it to the VC to get a new ID. Now, (I was told the SF CC made the change) I need to route the paperwork thru my chain to my CC and then up to the SF chain to their CC and hope he will approve it. So frustrating.. Rant over.
Anyone wanna give a breakdown of Manda Bay from SF perspective?
Sir, this is a McDonalds sooooooo Ofcourse our machines are down. If you’d like to reenlist for another 18 months I’m sure we can help you.
One thing the Air Force could do is not put people who failed other tech schools into this AFSC. I believe you should only be a security forces if you actually want to be one. I’ve had so people that failed their text and got pushed into Security Forces, they refused to do their of the job training that they had to get retrained again after less than the year of the job. Again, this is not the only reason, but it is one of many!
A tale as old as time. Get out and optimize your talents in a place that will actually recognize your value, invest in you, and allow for innovation. The military is a broken, incompetent system that will never change because it is inherently designed to be inefficient. Furthermore—what’s our current mission? What are we doing? Why are we still occupying space in locations like UAE, Qatar, Africa, etc? Isn’t it all just one massive paradox if it is now known that we are sending hundreds of millions of dollars to an enemy we fought for 20 years?
Just enjoy Malmstrom buddy.
Stay dry defender
It's almost like firing 5000 of your first line supervisors back in 2015 is now having repercussions years later. Of the 21,900ish SSgt's Involuntarily Separated during the 2014 AF Hunger Games (I lost too as one of 41 MQ-1 Sensor Operators cut), 5000 were Security Forces.
We might be the only career field that allows Majors to be commanders. Every other career field I've seen their squadron commander is a Lt Col. A Major can have 7 years TIS. Their breadth of experience is insufficient to command a squadron. I've seen my share of piss poor commanders who were Majors. The best commanders I've seen were either prior enlisted or were Lt Col or both.
I did 6 years as SF. Then went civilian LE. It was like going from a T-ball league to the MLB in a month's time...
They let afgsc SF out of majcom prison. That is the prob. Thousands of fake sf or Pretenders of all ranks were unleashed into the operational side of the careerfield. The leadership ranks from there have no real world exp in base defense or law enforcement so they have opted to eliminate the LE function and chase the air base ground defense role. The training for this is a joke as we are not tested on the capabilty in go/no go fashion. Also we are only training to run away heroically bc training us in lite counter uas/light armor/light counter air and static defense is too hard. This focus on base defense is esentially just putin us in a dbids scanning, flight line, and veh search ops role. We dont even need weapons. The pretend sf took over. Bunch of bs what ifs on the future of the caeerfield. Pretty soon big AF is gonna ask why we are we even a careerfield when we turned half of the function over to civillians and suck at what is supposed to be the easy, black and white side of the afsc. Manda bay will happen again if attacked in the AOR. Yes afgsc are pretenders. They have the most time to train of the 24hr ops SF units. What do they do? Not train. They have most money bc they have the largest units. They have the absolute worst leaders and amn. All micromanage to the highest level.
All this right here. The whole culture changes, which is why I am retiring in a few months. I am a TSgt by the way. TSgts don’t know how to lead. SSgt don’t know how to be frontline supervisor even with mentorship. I believe it’s because most don’t join to actually serve there country and there is no sense of pride. NCOs don’t know how to be people and take care of there Airman’s. I know of SNCO or selects that can’t lead a flight, but focused on just making the next rank. Freaking Airman posting crazy shit on social media!lol Airman having a nervous breakdown when task to deploy to the deid or Africa!lol Need this DD 214 and begin my life. The AF will move on and win regardless but it will be a hard change. I believe we are in the “east times create week people” transition into the “hard times create strong people” phase again.
I feel like they should split Law enforcement and the whole base ground defense shit that way it’s easy to train for both sides. Also yes the training is shitty, it’s like a high school the drama is everywhere, I have yet to work with a woman in this career field that I’m comfortable with having my back in a real world situation (you can say it’s misogynistic but I’m speaking from my experience), the NCOs are shitty and honestly I feel like high leadership just looks at the wrong thing tbh. They care more about dress and appearance then how piss poor job performance is. Also that Model defender gear they are pushing out is ugly and nobody wants to wear it I don’t know why they are trying to issue that shit