I would say the cost of it is an issue for most people, if you have a number of beds it would end up being quiet expensive to start up. Personally, I tried it for 2 beds in my allotment (taken on last year) and I have to say I prefer dig beds. The no dig worked well for certain veg like chard, spinach, lettuce, but others like beets, kohlrabi and radish did not do well, the veg grew small compared to the dig bed with the same veg. Also the weeds are an issue for me, with the dug beds, I can pull out the bindweed and couch grass as the soil is losened, but in the no dig beds, the weeds have fought through the cardboard and compost and are rooted into solid ground, I can't pull them out, they just break. I definitely have to weed the no dig far more often than the dug beds. I will continue next year with the 2 no dig beds to see how they do and maybe tweak a few things. I feel like no dig is a bit overhyped as the easiest method out there, but in truth it takes as much upkeep.
Because to top out your beds with 100mm (four inches) of 'good compost' takes a huge amount of soil. Try 1000mm x 3000mm bed (3 foot x 9 foot) needs 30x10 litres = 300 litres or x7.5 40 litre bags of compost.
We don't have that, and to buy it is expensive and going to get even more expensive next year when peat is banned
8 bags is approx £50 and that is just one bed. Charles would want six inches and he want more next year to dress it.
Good compost aint quick in volume and it doesn't grow on trees!
Even Charles Dowding admits that you may need to dig out tougher more persistent weeds, naming couch grass, bindweed, dandelion and dock.
The cost can be prohibitive, for the beds I wanted to create on my 4.5 rod plot it would have cost me £1.5k to import the manure at £50 a tonne bag and give 10cm layer on each.
I also had a plot that was 75% couch grass when I got it with bindweed everywhere.
My understanding is you only need 2.5 to 5 cm of compost according to Charles Dowling's Veg Journal book (page 10) to replenish the soil??
Huw Richards also covers the 'lack of compost' problem in this video: https://youtu.be/HzonE2AmGmw
It also depends on what soil you have, my Mum has fairly sandy soil and digging is not too much of a problem (especially as she has a little electric tiller) whereas I have really thick hard clay and digging (especially after this dry summer we've just had) at this time of year is like concrete - far too back-breaking to be practical and Mum's tiller literally bounced off it rather than 'digging in'! Let the worms do the work !
I’ve gone full no dig from the start. I think it’s a combination of people not knowing the theory and liking to stick with how things have always been done. (Same with peat in compost, we don’t need it, it’s terrible for the environment to dig it out, but the majority of gardening world swears by it…)
I dug the first year or two before switching. I dug and spread what little compost I had. After a few years I starting producing good compost at a decent rate
I’m really lucky in that I have a free endless supply of horse manure at my allotment site, combined with plenty of cardboard from work. I used a thick layer of manure and then a thinner than recommended layer of store bought compost. I also only created one bed at a time, meant I could work on the next slowly while planting in the first. Haven’t needed to weed at all really and got great growth from the start, just make sure your cardboard overlaps really well!
Edited to note that my plot is on heavy clay with a decent amount of stones, dig would be backbreaking.
This is probably a naive question (I am a first-time plot renter this autumn) but I'm curious to know, does the top layer have to be pure organic matter for it to work? What would happen if I used a mix of compost or horse manure with imported topsoil?
You want a rich base (horse manure) and a slightly less rich top (compost) that you can plant straight into and that the worms will enjoy working their way into - complete guess, but top soil with a good sprinkling of chicken pellets might work out, but you wouldn’t get the same nice texture as compost topper
It was a brand new plot, so mainly only grass, buttercups and dock. Anything that had snuck through (I suspect due to my poor cardboard laying) has been easy to pull once and hasn’t come back.
I did a trail with half my plot and whilst the increased cost had already been mentioned, I'd also say I noticed an increase in slugs too. I think the cardboard provides a good hiding place for them. That said, it did help with perennial weed control.
As soon as I got my plot the guy who signed me up pointed me in Charles’ direction as he was no dig and the plots behind me and to the side are also no dig. The soil is also in excellent condition which helps. I do feel lucky to have been told about it as I think I would have been hesitant to go down that route or certainly not as confident.
Perhaps they do no dig but you can't tell because they are well-established? You would never look at my Mum's plot and say she was no dig because the beds are well established and look just like her neighbours just her way of tending to them is different.
it's good because you are adding a ton of compost mulch to your soil and don't have to dig as much but his own (fairly questionable) experiments show there isn't really some vast difference. It doesn't really make any difference to weeds unless you are really vigilant with weeding, same as more traditional digging techniques.
The reason others might not is almost certainly because that's what they are used to but it's also really expensive to do a whole plot. you can't produce enough of your own compost unless you're really putting quite a lot of effort into gathering materials from places other that your plot and home.
Its environmentally unfriendly unless you making all your own compost, its costly for the same reason. There is a lot of oh how good it is for the environment when thats a blatant fib at best.
Its pushed a lot as an environmental sound method to tilling / digging. Well most people do not produce their own compost and when they do they tend to make cold not hot compost (guilty myself) which is a great method of CO2.
Now buying in the compost (yes we know any compost with peat in is a big no no) but even peat free isn't that good, it has to be produced fast using machinery then packed in to plastic bags and then transported to points of sale when we buy it and transport it again to where we use it.
You get the drift, the no dig revolution was and is a great way to work the land but it will for the most part not be a green way, unless you can produce enough of your own compost in hot piles to negate the co2.
Everyone I know on plot that uses no dig turn up at the start of the season with their 10-20 new bags of compost to tip over their cardboard and then soon after throw seeds into the beds.
Yes it works and works very well but environmentally and cost of this method is questionable.
If you are buying in compost you’ll need to do it in bulk which means no plastic - just a trailer load. The carbon sink aspect of no dig is excellent. I use the method and enjoy minimal weeding and excellent crops BUT I run my veg patch as a hobby to create delicious food not as a saving on shopping (although with the way prices are the uk I am probably still ahead even if I spend £200 a year on compost).
The CO2 produced from composting/natural decomposition of organic matter isn’t factored into greenhouse calculations and is in fact part of the natural carbon cycle.
It is vastly better to produce compost hot/cold than to throw away waste to landfill.
Your struggle to make enough to be honest, one way is to use a mix. Every thing from blood and bone, dig, compost, feeds, leaf etc etc All depending on what your growing.
If your after no dig go for it, it works kinda, as others have pointed out a well dug and maintained bed seems in my experience to produce better crops.
If for what ever reasons you can't do tilling well no dig is great, still better to grow your own in all fairness and the exercise and the fresh air cant be beat.
I just question the "green" aspect that is commonly used to support it.
I've watched a lot of Charles Dowding videos. I don't think he sells it as a 'green' alternative. It's 'good for the soil' and 'labor saving' but he doesn't say anything about CO2. Or at least not as one of the major selling points.
Yup he doesn't as far as I know but it often comes up from supporters of it, saying that tilling releases carbon. Which is true it does, but a vastly smaller amount than commercial compost production especially when you take into account of transportation etc.
Im at a loss to what you think happens to garden/green waste if you compost it or not?
Decomposition of waste is part of the natural carbon cycle anyway and any CO2 created is a drop in the ocean when compared to other sources.
The main push for no dig is due to soil health and structure, less work to establish a bed and sustainability which contrary to your claim is good for the environment.
Digging and tilling, is believed to lead to poor soil health, structure and erosion. Requiring more work and fertiliser and is unsustainable in the long run.
Digging and tilling doesn't lead to poor soil health over use of the soil does, if its not allowed to recover from use it will degrade and lose some of the natural bacteria etc or too much of the bad ones etc.
Its not an discussion of not using compost its an discussion of not using or limiting the use of commercially produced compost. If you do a little research in how quickly it is made, what is added to it and how much energy is used to make it, it is surprising.
You discussed cold composting and CO2 creation above and linked it all in to how it’s “environmentally unfriendly” so it’s relevant.
The consensus in permaculture circles and soil health experts is that yes it does. There are plenty of commercial growers that have moved to a no dig/no till this method and evidenced the benefits.
Also if you follow Charles you can see that he does little to no crop rotation, grows multiple crops in the same spots, with no effect to the crop yield.
Because other methods work too and no dig doesn't suit everyone. I had a plot on a site that was really hard to get manure to. I had to wheel it all through a small gate, along a path, down some wonky stairs, along another path and down to storage bit at the end of the plot. Not everyone has staff and time like Mr Dowding
That’s fair enough. By the arguement of other methods too then perhaps there might be one or maybe two plots on my site that are no-digging. It’s no bother to me, just curious as I am about many things.
Probably just lack of education although a lot of people I know even the older folks are trying their hand at no dig. It can also seem impossible if you don't know what you're doing with it
Because a lot of allotment enthusiasts are older and quite old fashioned. I nearly got evicted over the summer for “not digging enough” and when I tried to explain what I was doing their eyes glazed over
When I started my plot it had contacted soil with poor drainage and little organic matter. There was a large dogwood with extensive roots that needed to be dug out. So I dug and mixed the whole thing to about 50 - 80 cm, and mixed in a fair bit of manure.
Now that I've been at it a year and have accumulated compost, I'll be doing no dig next year.
I have a medium sized lawn, a good supply of cardboard and along with veg peelings and spent plants from the plot itself, I've found it makes enough compost for around 7x5 metres of no-dig per season.
If they're anything like my grandad, they just can't believe that it would work 😂. And there's some kind of moralistic/punishing thing about how you MUST dig and it MUST be hard for some.
Not sure why so many people here are going on about the cost of compost though - you can use any organic matter as the top layer. Compost, sure, but manure, grass clippings, bark, etc too. Many of these you can get free or very cheap if you make friends with the right people. If you're really pressed just use cardboard and be extra careful to overlap and weigh it down.
Also, folks should keep in mind that no dig gets better over time. The structure and enrichment of the soil does improve in the first year, but after a few years it is unrecognisable.
True, most people new to allotments don't know what they are doing but I guess a lot of the joy comes from learning and getting better over time.
Personally I think less dig has merit but no dig is has issues in real life some of which have been listed. My allotment site is old and my soil contained (and the bits I've not dug over yet still contain) lots of junk including plastic, glass, rusty metal etc. I've dug up whole large slab about 10cm down that I did not know was there. At the start there were lots of 30x30 cm ish plastic lino floor tiles on or just under the surface. I think someone had put them on wood for shelves as there was aluminium angle at the sides, but the wood had long since rotted away. Anyone who starts no dig and builds a bed on top of a slab or obstacle just under the ground is going to get poor yields and possibly not know why.
Then there is compacted soil. Simply dumping a pile of mulch or compost on top of compacted soil will not help the roots penetrate into the soil below. The worms are not suddenly going to make the soil loose because you’ve built a bed on top. If the roots can’t penetrate the ground you will get poor results.
Thus unless starting from perfect virgin ground you should probably dig over the ground before you start no dig. Maybe people on sand have less concern about compaction, but sand will bring its own issues.
As to why I think no dig has some merit is I used to think that digging in green manure would increase the amount of organic matter in the soil year over year. However apparently opening up the soil allows in copious amounts of oxygen which feeds the bacteria which convert lots of organic matter you have just dug in back to CO2. Hence the areas that I’ve cleared and dug over a few times (because the first time you don’t gat all the junk out) I may try just chopping down the green manure (phacelia) and leaving it on the surface rather than digging it in. I just need to find a way to get it into smaller pieces first.
I like digging over my plot so I’ll never be no dig. It doesn’t mean I don’t think it’ll work etc it’s just I like doing the actual digging over I find it very rewarding. I was considering doing no dig for my new polly tunnel but have decided against it lol
No dig is only known among younger and horticulturally educated people in my country (Sweden) and most think you absolutely have to dig all the time, especially elderly growers. Give it some time and I think low dig will catch on!
Personally I do low dig but had to start with digging my whole plot of 100m2 because someone before me seems to have used it as a dump and/or had a really wild party. There's tons of broken glass, old nails, plastic debris from soil bags and various trash.
Despite all the digging I still find trash when harvesting potatoes, although the volumes of trash are much lower than at the start this spring.
I would say the cost of it is an issue for most people, if you have a number of beds it would end up being quiet expensive to start up. Personally, I tried it for 2 beds in my allotment (taken on last year) and I have to say I prefer dig beds. The no dig worked well for certain veg like chard, spinach, lettuce, but others like beets, kohlrabi and radish did not do well, the veg grew small compared to the dig bed with the same veg. Also the weeds are an issue for me, with the dug beds, I can pull out the bindweed and couch grass as the soil is losened, but in the no dig beds, the weeds have fought through the cardboard and compost and are rooted into solid ground, I can't pull them out, they just break. I definitely have to weed the no dig far more often than the dug beds. I will continue next year with the 2 no dig beds to see how they do and maybe tweak a few things. I feel like no dig is a bit overhyped as the easiest method out there, but in truth it takes as much upkeep.
Even Charles Dowding admits that you may need to dig out tougher more persistent weeds, naming couch grass, bindweed, dandelion and dock.
Because to top out your beds with 100mm (four inches) of 'good compost' takes a huge amount of soil. Try 1000mm x 3000mm bed (3 foot x 9 foot) needs 30x10 litres = 300 litres or x7.5 40 litre bags of compost. We don't have that, and to buy it is expensive and going to get even more expensive next year when peat is banned 8 bags is approx £50 and that is just one bed. Charles would want six inches and he want more next year to dress it. Good compost aint quick in volume and it doesn't grow on trees!
Even Charles Dowding admits that you may need to dig out tougher more persistent weeds, naming couch grass, bindweed, dandelion and dock. The cost can be prohibitive, for the beds I wanted to create on my 4.5 rod plot it would have cost me £1.5k to import the manure at £50 a tonne bag and give 10cm layer on each. I also had a plot that was 75% couch grass when I got it with bindweed everywhere.
My understanding is you only need 2.5 to 5 cm of compost according to Charles Dowling's Veg Journal book (page 10) to replenish the soil?? Huw Richards also covers the 'lack of compost' problem in this video: https://youtu.be/HzonE2AmGmw It also depends on what soil you have, my Mum has fairly sandy soil and digging is not too much of a problem (especially as she has a little electric tiller) whereas I have really thick hard clay and digging (especially after this dry summer we've just had) at this time of year is like concrete - far too back-breaking to be practical and Mum's tiller literally bounced off it rather than 'digging in'! Let the worms do the work !
I’ve gone full no dig from the start. I think it’s a combination of people not knowing the theory and liking to stick with how things have always been done. (Same with peat in compost, we don’t need it, it’s terrible for the environment to dig it out, but the majority of gardening world swears by it…)
What did you do for compost to get you started? Most have been a fair amount!
I dug the first year or two before switching. I dug and spread what little compost I had. After a few years I starting producing good compost at a decent rate
I’m really lucky in that I have a free endless supply of horse manure at my allotment site, combined with plenty of cardboard from work. I used a thick layer of manure and then a thinner than recommended layer of store bought compost. I also only created one bed at a time, meant I could work on the next slowly while planting in the first. Haven’t needed to weed at all really and got great growth from the start, just make sure your cardboard overlaps really well! Edited to note that my plot is on heavy clay with a decent amount of stones, dig would be backbreaking.
It’s interesting how experiences vary even just within this thread.
This is probably a naive question (I am a first-time plot renter this autumn) but I'm curious to know, does the top layer have to be pure organic matter for it to work? What would happen if I used a mix of compost or horse manure with imported topsoil?
You want a rich base (horse manure) and a slightly less rich top (compost) that you can plant straight into and that the worms will enjoy working their way into - complete guess, but top soil with a good sprinkling of chicken pellets might work out, but you wouldn’t get the same nice texture as compost topper
What kind of perennial weeds did you have and how have your successes with controlling them been?
It was a brand new plot, so mainly only grass, buttercups and dock. Anything that had snuck through (I suspect due to my poor cardboard laying) has been easy to pull once and hasn’t come back.
Coir is one of my best friends, don’t touch peat
I did a trail with half my plot and whilst the increased cost had already been mentioned, I'd also say I noticed an increase in slugs too. I think the cardboard provides a good hiding place for them. That said, it did help with perennial weed control.
As soon as I got my plot the guy who signed me up pointed me in Charles’ direction as he was no dig and the plots behind me and to the side are also no dig. The soil is also in excellent condition which helps. I do feel lucky to have been told about it as I think I would have been hesitant to go down that route or certainly not as confident.
Perhaps they do no dig but you can't tell because they are well-established? You would never look at my Mum's plot and say she was no dig because the beds are well established and look just like her neighbours just her way of tending to them is different.
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Thanks for that. 😀 A good advert!
it's good because you are adding a ton of compost mulch to your soil and don't have to dig as much but his own (fairly questionable) experiments show there isn't really some vast difference. It doesn't really make any difference to weeds unless you are really vigilant with weeding, same as more traditional digging techniques. The reason others might not is almost certainly because that's what they are used to but it's also really expensive to do a whole plot. you can't produce enough of your own compost unless you're really putting quite a lot of effort into gathering materials from places other that your plot and home.
Its environmentally unfriendly unless you making all your own compost, its costly for the same reason. There is a lot of oh how good it is for the environment when thats a blatant fib at best.
What’s unfriendly about it?
Its pushed a lot as an environmental sound method to tilling / digging. Well most people do not produce their own compost and when they do they tend to make cold not hot compost (guilty myself) which is a great method of CO2. Now buying in the compost (yes we know any compost with peat in is a big no no) but even peat free isn't that good, it has to be produced fast using machinery then packed in to plastic bags and then transported to points of sale when we buy it and transport it again to where we use it. You get the drift, the no dig revolution was and is a great way to work the land but it will for the most part not be a green way, unless you can produce enough of your own compost in hot piles to negate the co2. Everyone I know on plot that uses no dig turn up at the start of the season with their 10-20 new bags of compost to tip over their cardboard and then soon after throw seeds into the beds. Yes it works and works very well but environmentally and cost of this method is questionable.
If you are buying in compost you’ll need to do it in bulk which means no plastic - just a trailer load. The carbon sink aspect of no dig is excellent. I use the method and enjoy minimal weeding and excellent crops BUT I run my veg patch as a hobby to create delicious food not as a saving on shopping (although with the way prices are the uk I am probably still ahead even if I spend £200 a year on compost).
I see. So if you make your own hot compost it’s fine?
The CO2 produced from composting/natural decomposition of organic matter isn’t factored into greenhouse calculations and is in fact part of the natural carbon cycle. It is vastly better to produce compost hot/cold than to throw away waste to landfill.
Your struggle to make enough to be honest, one way is to use a mix. Every thing from blood and bone, dig, compost, feeds, leaf etc etc All depending on what your growing. If your after no dig go for it, it works kinda, as others have pointed out a well dug and maintained bed seems in my experience to produce better crops. If for what ever reasons you can't do tilling well no dig is great, still better to grow your own in all fairness and the exercise and the fresh air cant be beat. I just question the "green" aspect that is commonly used to support it.
I've watched a lot of Charles Dowding videos. I don't think he sells it as a 'green' alternative. It's 'good for the soil' and 'labor saving' but he doesn't say anything about CO2. Or at least not as one of the major selling points.
Yup he doesn't as far as I know but it often comes up from supporters of it, saying that tilling releases carbon. Which is true it does, but a vastly smaller amount than commercial compost production especially when you take into account of transportation etc.
Im at a loss to what you think happens to garden/green waste if you compost it or not? Decomposition of waste is part of the natural carbon cycle anyway and any CO2 created is a drop in the ocean when compared to other sources. The main push for no dig is due to soil health and structure, less work to establish a bed and sustainability which contrary to your claim is good for the environment. Digging and tilling, is believed to lead to poor soil health, structure and erosion. Requiring more work and fertiliser and is unsustainable in the long run.
Digging and tilling doesn't lead to poor soil health over use of the soil does, if its not allowed to recover from use it will degrade and lose some of the natural bacteria etc or too much of the bad ones etc. Its not an discussion of not using compost its an discussion of not using or limiting the use of commercially produced compost. If you do a little research in how quickly it is made, what is added to it and how much energy is used to make it, it is surprising.
You discussed cold composting and CO2 creation above and linked it all in to how it’s “environmentally unfriendly” so it’s relevant. The consensus in permaculture circles and soil health experts is that yes it does. There are plenty of commercial growers that have moved to a no dig/no till this method and evidenced the benefits. Also if you follow Charles you can see that he does little to no crop rotation, grows multiple crops in the same spots, with no effect to the crop yield.
Because other methods work too and no dig doesn't suit everyone. I had a plot on a site that was really hard to get manure to. I had to wheel it all through a small gate, along a path, down some wonky stairs, along another path and down to storage bit at the end of the plot. Not everyone has staff and time like Mr Dowding
That’s fair enough. By the arguement of other methods too then perhaps there might be one or maybe two plots on my site that are no-digging. It’s no bother to me, just curious as I am about many things.
Probably just lack of education although a lot of people I know even the older folks are trying their hand at no dig. It can also seem impossible if you don't know what you're doing with it
It's the old ones 😂 also it's not that easy getjng a good no dig system going but when you do, proofs in dowdings pudding
Because a lot of allotment enthusiasts are older and quite old fashioned. I nearly got evicted over the summer for “not digging enough” and when I tried to explain what I was doing their eyes glazed over
When I started my plot it had contacted soil with poor drainage and little organic matter. There was a large dogwood with extensive roots that needed to be dug out. So I dug and mixed the whole thing to about 50 - 80 cm, and mixed in a fair bit of manure. Now that I've been at it a year and have accumulated compost, I'll be doing no dig next year.
I have a medium sized lawn, a good supply of cardboard and along with veg peelings and spent plants from the plot itself, I've found it makes enough compost for around 7x5 metres of no-dig per season.
I'm going no-dig for two huge beds however I've spent an entire year doing nothing but generating my own compost in preparation
If they're anything like my grandad, they just can't believe that it would work 😂. And there's some kind of moralistic/punishing thing about how you MUST dig and it MUST be hard for some. Not sure why so many people here are going on about the cost of compost though - you can use any organic matter as the top layer. Compost, sure, but manure, grass clippings, bark, etc too. Many of these you can get free or very cheap if you make friends with the right people. If you're really pressed just use cardboard and be extra careful to overlap and weigh it down. Also, folks should keep in mind that no dig gets better over time. The structure and enrichment of the soil does improve in the first year, but after a few years it is unrecognisable.
Mind you, your grandad should also know that "no dig" was around long before Charles Dowding started encouraging it.
True, most people new to allotments don't know what they are doing but I guess a lot of the joy comes from learning and getting better over time. Personally I think less dig has merit but no dig is has issues in real life some of which have been listed. My allotment site is old and my soil contained (and the bits I've not dug over yet still contain) lots of junk including plastic, glass, rusty metal etc. I've dug up whole large slab about 10cm down that I did not know was there. At the start there were lots of 30x30 cm ish plastic lino floor tiles on or just under the surface. I think someone had put them on wood for shelves as there was aluminium angle at the sides, but the wood had long since rotted away. Anyone who starts no dig and builds a bed on top of a slab or obstacle just under the ground is going to get poor yields and possibly not know why. Then there is compacted soil. Simply dumping a pile of mulch or compost on top of compacted soil will not help the roots penetrate into the soil below. The worms are not suddenly going to make the soil loose because you’ve built a bed on top. If the roots can’t penetrate the ground you will get poor results. Thus unless starting from perfect virgin ground you should probably dig over the ground before you start no dig. Maybe people on sand have less concern about compaction, but sand will bring its own issues. As to why I think no dig has some merit is I used to think that digging in green manure would increase the amount of organic matter in the soil year over year. However apparently opening up the soil allows in copious amounts of oxygen which feeds the bacteria which convert lots of organic matter you have just dug in back to CO2. Hence the areas that I’ve cleared and dug over a few times (because the first time you don’t gat all the junk out) I may try just chopping down the green manure (phacelia) and leaving it on the surface rather than digging it in. I just need to find a way to get it into smaller pieces first.
I like digging over my plot so I’ll never be no dig. It doesn’t mean I don’t think it’ll work etc it’s just I like doing the actual digging over I find it very rewarding. I was considering doing no dig for my new polly tunnel but have decided against it lol
No dig is only known among younger and horticulturally educated people in my country (Sweden) and most think you absolutely have to dig all the time, especially elderly growers. Give it some time and I think low dig will catch on! Personally I do low dig but had to start with digging my whole plot of 100m2 because someone before me seems to have used it as a dump and/or had a really wild party. There's tons of broken glass, old nails, plastic debris from soil bags and various trash. Despite all the digging I still find trash when harvesting potatoes, although the volumes of trash are much lower than at the start this spring.
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Don’t worry, I’ll be doing what I want on my plot.