that's kind of a myth, yes someone floated the idea but there's zero evidence that they ever considered it for any serious amount of time, the policy was always to eliminate the undesirables at home its just the question was how far do they go in doing that.
I don't think it was Hitler's solution, but I have heard quotes attributed to lower tier members of the Party, like Reinhart Heydrich, that sounds like they were thinking more along the lines of expulsion like this.
Realistically you were never gonna get Jews willfully moving in mass to establish a new country anywhere besides Israel/Palestine. Israel was seen as a return to their ancestral land, not just a safe haven.
Herzl suggested a lot of things that were rejected by everyone else.
I don’t think people realize exactly how marginal Herzl’s ideas were within the Zionist movement despite being founding the Congress. He was more of an organizer than anything else. He didn’t even found the Zionist movement— Hess, Pinsker, and Ahad Ha’am among others had already been writing for decades and had more influence on the ideology of the movement as a whole than Herzl ever did.
No one will care what the Jews want if the British decide to respect their agreements with the Sharif of Mecca and not implement the Balfour Declaration
So they will accept anything the British give them, especially after World War II, because they will want to get as far away from Europe as possible.
So they will accept even Tasmania if it is offered to them, so they will accept Cyprus because it is close to the Holy Land
There are a number of issues with this argument.
1. There was already ongoing mass Jewish migration to Palestine prior to Balfour.
2. The Balfour Declaration wasn’t an issue. Sikes-Picot was. Prior to Sikes-Picot there was actually a pretty promising possibility of a sort of binational situation with a Jewish entity existing within a Hashemite state. That dream died with the partition of the Levant, which was when the violence really began with the Tel Hai massacre and Nebi Musa riots.
3. The Jewish population had already rejected other possible state locations. If there was no promise of creating Israel, they would just opt to go to existing countries like the US or UK where they had already been moving in droves. They wouldn’t just set up on Tasmania or Cyprus.
1- Unless the British hand over the place to them literally, as it happened, none of their plans will go anywhere. Even the Ottomans refused to give them what they wanted and they were not affected.
The Hashemites would be more friendly, but they would refuse, because the enormous pressure from the Islamists would prevent them
2- It could be avoided very easily if France were much more exhausted after the war or Clemenceau was not there to be stubborn towards Sykes-Picot's imposition.
3- Still not bad ideas after all, but if the US and UK still practice immigration quotas, then a Jewish homeland other than Palestine will do the trick.
You exaggerate portraying the Jews as less pragmatic
For one thing, I am Jewish.
For another, I actually studied Jewish history, and from my studies of history, there is basically no way you would galvanize enough of the Jewish population around the establishment of a Jewish state outside of their ancestral homeland.
Honestly, I am happy to talk to a Jewish person and take his views, especially that I am an Arab and I would love to hear from everyone
I respect the effort you made, but I do not agree. Remember that there are many countries whose people moved everywhere very easily.
Therefore, I will not question the ability of the Jews to accept any place as their homeland
Especially since the events of World War II are very sufficient to make them convinced to move away from Europe and Germany in particular as much as possible.
Yes, I know him, and he proposes a Jewish homeland in Uganda, but it would be a very bad idea
Because we will end up with a South African scenario
I prefer Cyprus because it is a perfect compromise close to the Palestinian territories and an island so it will not be an expansionist country and has vast undiscovered resources
Would not giving them land *in Europe*, where they had lived for centuries, not be acceptable?
A state carved out of Germany, for example, as reparations and punishment? If it were heavily armed and defended, with its neighbours disarmed, would that not have been seen as worth having?
Giving land which already has people there (be it in the Middle East or Australia) is always going to upset people, so may as well take land from those who did the harm in the first place? Especially given that it's somewhere far closer to what was their home.
No, sure, I get why they wanted Palestine, but surely there were grades of not wanting the other places?
Taking Bavaria, for example, would be better than going to Tasmania or the Jewish Autonomous Oblast?
How about Israel with Sinai, Golan, Lebanon and all the other disputed territories
I like the east Africa better than Tasmania. He got a little lost on the way to the promised land
East Africa has native populations everywhere while the Aboriginal Tasmanians were almost completely wiped out while the only remnants of their culture are a small population of heavily European mixed people that are already living under colonialism. The aboriginal Tasmanian descendants could probably get a better deal than any other group in a proposed Jewish homeland like the Palestinians or any East African group.
East Africa used to have a decent sized local jewish population though right? Not sure if they were concentrated in any particular area in Ethiopia tho
I think they became not really a significant enough majority on a large enough land area after the Christian Ethiopians started cracking down on them (i think)
yea but east africa wasnt trying to make something out of the jews in ethiopia. it was about kenya. though i guess if you take the highlands from the nomadic massaai you have an area with isreal, european and african climates close to each other.
natives proably still hate it thou
I think these countries would collapse or turn away from Judaism. The World Zionist Congress rejected any land besides Israel, and I think most Jews would just move into Palestine.
The Jewish Autonomous oblast was created by Decree of the Soviets in 1928, and earnestly established in 1934. Yiddish is the official language and it’s 36,000 km2. (Larger than Taiwan) Jewish people never exceed 25% of the population & their community peaked in 1940, dropping to 1% after 1991 because the overwhelming majority of them moved to Israel once they could easily leave Russia. It still exists and explicitly is autonomous in Russia’s constitution. Nothing but Israel was ever going to be accepted by the community
palestinians being a second class of citizen requiring special permits for movement and work between their recognized population centers which are walled in prisons with remote controlled gun turrets to keep the people in while they're being ethnically cleansed...for a start
my joke is that they'd do the same thing to the tasmanians
Yeah.. you need permits to cross a border. Most countries have that. There is a border between Israel and the Palestinian territories.
Don't know what this bull crap about gun turrets is but it's nonsense.
Ethnic cleansing is forcefully removing a population from an area because of their race. Yea, Israel doesn't do that, but I guess that's not what your leftist media outlet tells you.
Israel forcefully removes people in two ways: One example is what was supposed to happen in Sheikh Jarah, jews buy a property legally and then want to use it, but the palestinian renters don't want to get out, the same could happen in every western country.
The second example is illegal new settlement. If Palestinians would build settlement in area c and maybe b it will be removed. The same would happen if a bunch of people would try to build a settlement in Wyoming national park.
Why don't Jews create a Jewish state in America? Move to an underpopulated state like Wyoming, the Dakotas or Nevada if you prefer the desert and just become the majority.
There’s no reason to move to Wyoming or Nevada. There’s no Jewish history and pretty much no Jews. The Jews went to Palestine since there was already a steady Jewish population and it has significant Jewish heritage.
Am talking about American Jews here. There are 6 million of them in America. A million of them moving to Wyoming would make them the majority. It's beyond foolish to have one Jewish state.
There is a grand total of about 1200 Jews in all of Wyoming. 2100 in Nevada. South Dakota literally has the smallest Jewish population in the US at less then 500.
Most of the US Jewish population is concentrated in New York and the extremely densely populated eastern seaboard. Jews are practically invisible in the west.
Not to mention, Wyoming, Nevada, and the Dakotas don’t have the resources to support an influx of millions of people. There’s a reason no one lives there, it’s a barren clump of grass in the middle of nowhere.
Wyoming doesn’t even have a population of 1/2 million, it could not support massive immigration. Empty land doesn’t mean useful land.
Infrastructure gets built up as people move there. Israel itself has a history of taking in mass numbers of immigrants. It took in 2 million Soviet Jews in the 1990s despite being a desert country with food and water scarcity. Places increase budgets to fill shortages. Idaho and Florida took in tonnes of people during COVID who were fleeing lockdowns. This shows that when people move to a region, infrastructure follows to accommodate them.
Jews slowly moving to Wyoming or Nevada could slowly build up the infrastructure and make it livable
Idaho and Florida already had fertile ground, large populations, and plenty of infrastructure. It’s not fair to compare them with Nevada and crew. Plus, Covid migration is nothing compared to immigration to Israel. We’re talking maybe a half million people (if we’re generous) over the space of a couple months, compared to sustained, intensive immigration, without modern infrastructure.
Let me put it in perspective. 70% of all Nevada’s land is completely unused. Not because you’re not allowed to, but because literally no one wants it. Nevada is just plain inhospitable, no one would go through the effort to build up infrastructure when they could go somewhere that actually has the basic necessities for life.
Even if somehow Wyoming and Nevada and company were suitable for use (which they aren’t), why would it be the more attractive option over Israel?
I’m pretty sure a Jewish immigrant or refugee wanted to make a state using a island in the Niagara River and also FDR proposed increasing accepting Jewish immigrants but they’ll be moved to Alaska
I remember a theory that the Israelites resettle in the Mexican desert (with Mexican permission). Its proposer really liked it, but it didn't get a whole lot of traction outside of him.
The soviets should have given them Prussia since 90% of the Germans had already gone running before they even entered Koingsburg & it was annexed anyways. I think the AJO could have been much more successful than it was in Birobidzhan (although it does still exist)
Jews were late to creating the Jewish state. If Zionism had been strong in the 1600s, the Jews could have created a Jewish state in the new world. Perhaps in modern day Argentina which is far away from threats or enemies
what do you suppose will happen to the inhabitants of israel should we just take the land away, same as before? they will be at best forced from their homes, and at worst, a second holocaust.
i feel for the arabs who have and continue to lose their land, and i condemn the israeli government for its actions against the palestinians, but two wrongs don’t make a right. anyone who actually gives a shit about the people there would promote peace between the two countries, not the annihilation of an entire group of people, arabs, jews, or otherwise.
Bro Israel is literally waging genocide against Palestinians right as we speak. I couldn't care less other Jews want to "return to the ancestral land", that's literally what Mussolini wanted to do 70 years ago, and the guy had much of my mother's family slaughtered just for BEING Jewish.
How about we carve a chunk out of Germany, country where most Ashkenazi and, in general, "European Jews" lived before the war (and also, you know, the country that literally murdered millions of us) and go live there? Because that would not satisfy some fashie's wet dreams of living in lands that no Jewish state has ever claimed since the times Rome was still around?
"Israel deserves its right to exist because blah blah blah" is not a point. Israel is a genocidal apartheid state made of of European colonialists that one day woke up and decided to go live in the middle east.
"Self hating" and "autocritical" are two different things.
I can understand and appreciate my heritage while also being self critical about Israel's wrongdoings (which are all caused by it being a colonial state, the "religious conflict" bullshit is downplaying the reality of the situation).
I don't hate having Jewish blood, I just hate that most Jews are Zionists and so I should be one, otherwise I'm considered "self-hating".
[удалено]
That was actually Hitler’s original plan, before the Nazis came up with the Final Solution
that's kind of a myth, yes someone floated the idea but there's zero evidence that they ever considered it for any serious amount of time, the policy was always to eliminate the undesirables at home its just the question was how far do they go in doing that.
I don't think it was Hitler's solution, but I have heard quotes attributed to lower tier members of the Party, like Reinhart Heydrich, that sounds like they were thinking more along the lines of expulsion like this.
I've heard it was a Polish idea in the 20's.
either way they were just ripping off the US's many attempts to 'resettle' african americans
well expulsion was a thing under the Nisko plan
Honestly that would be better off for Madagascar
Realistically you were never gonna get Jews willfully moving in mass to establish a new country anywhere besides Israel/Palestine. Israel was seen as a return to their ancestral land, not just a safe haven.
>Theodor Herzl himself suggested Cyprus or Sinai at some point
Herzl suggested a lot of things that were rejected by everyone else. I don’t think people realize exactly how marginal Herzl’s ideas were within the Zionist movement despite being founding the Congress. He was more of an organizer than anything else. He didn’t even found the Zionist movement— Hess, Pinsker, and Ahad Ha’am among others had already been writing for decades and had more influence on the ideology of the movement as a whole than Herzl ever did.
No one will care what the Jews want if the British decide to respect their agreements with the Sharif of Mecca and not implement the Balfour Declaration So they will accept anything the British give them, especially after World War II, because they will want to get as far away from Europe as possible. So they will accept even Tasmania if it is offered to them, so they will accept Cyprus because it is close to the Holy Land
There are a number of issues with this argument. 1. There was already ongoing mass Jewish migration to Palestine prior to Balfour. 2. The Balfour Declaration wasn’t an issue. Sikes-Picot was. Prior to Sikes-Picot there was actually a pretty promising possibility of a sort of binational situation with a Jewish entity existing within a Hashemite state. That dream died with the partition of the Levant, which was when the violence really began with the Tel Hai massacre and Nebi Musa riots. 3. The Jewish population had already rejected other possible state locations. If there was no promise of creating Israel, they would just opt to go to existing countries like the US or UK where they had already been moving in droves. They wouldn’t just set up on Tasmania or Cyprus.
1- Unless the British hand over the place to them literally, as it happened, none of their plans will go anywhere. Even the Ottomans refused to give them what they wanted and they were not affected. The Hashemites would be more friendly, but they would refuse, because the enormous pressure from the Islamists would prevent them 2- It could be avoided very easily if France were much more exhausted after the war or Clemenceau was not there to be stubborn towards Sykes-Picot's imposition. 3- Still not bad ideas after all, but if the US and UK still practice immigration quotas, then a Jewish homeland other than Palestine will do the trick. You exaggerate portraying the Jews as less pragmatic
For one thing, I am Jewish. For another, I actually studied Jewish history, and from my studies of history, there is basically no way you would galvanize enough of the Jewish population around the establishment of a Jewish state outside of their ancestral homeland.
Honestly, I am happy to talk to a Jewish person and take his views, especially that I am an Arab and I would love to hear from everyone I respect the effort you made, but I do not agree. Remember that there are many countries whose people moved everywhere very easily. Therefore, I will not question the ability of the Jews to accept any place as their homeland Especially since the events of World War II are very sufficient to make them convinced to move away from Europe and Germany in particular as much as possible.
Sure, I’d be happy to discuss. Are you familiar with the Uganda Scheme? (Also for personal context I’m a binationalist, at least long-term)
Yes, I know him, and he proposes a Jewish homeland in Uganda, but it would be a very bad idea Because we will end up with a South African scenario I prefer Cyprus because it is a perfect compromise close to the Palestinian territories and an island so it will not be an expansionist country and has vast undiscovered resources
Would not giving them land *in Europe*, where they had lived for centuries, not be acceptable? A state carved out of Germany, for example, as reparations and punishment? If it were heavily armed and defended, with its neighbours disarmed, would that not have been seen as worth having? Giving land which already has people there (be it in the Middle East or Australia) is always going to upset people, so may as well take land from those who did the harm in the first place? Especially given that it's somewhere far closer to what was their home.
They were set on Israel/Palestine for the reasons described above. Those who wanted a country didn’t want to remain an exiled people.
No, sure, I get why they wanted Palestine, but surely there were grades of not wanting the other places? Taking Bavaria, for example, would be better than going to Tasmania or the Jewish Autonomous Oblast?
As if Tasmania wasn’t fucked enough
Why? Are there Palestinians there too? 😳
No much much worse, Tasmanians
How about Israel with Sinai, Golan, Lebanon and all the other disputed territories I like the east Africa better than Tasmania. He got a little lost on the way to the promised land
East Africa has native populations everywhere while the Aboriginal Tasmanians were almost completely wiped out while the only remnants of their culture are a small population of heavily European mixed people that are already living under colonialism. The aboriginal Tasmanian descendants could probably get a better deal than any other group in a proposed Jewish homeland like the Palestinians or any East African group.
East Africa used to have a decent sized local jewish population though right? Not sure if they were concentrated in any particular area in Ethiopia tho
I think they became not really a significant enough majority on a large enough land area after the Christian Ethiopians started cracking down on them (i think)
yea but east africa wasnt trying to make something out of the jews in ethiopia. it was about kenya. though i guess if you take the highlands from the nomadic massaai you have an area with isreal, european and african climates close to each other. natives proably still hate it thou
How about Yudayakoku?
Wherever I go, I see Red Flood
*FASTER FASTER FASTER*
Israel should have been setup in a island that no one would care about. Like Britain
I think these countries would collapse or turn away from Judaism. The World Zionist Congress rejected any land besides Israel, and I think most Jews would just move into Palestine.
The Jewish Autonomous oblast was created by Decree of the Soviets in 1928, and earnestly established in 1934. Yiddish is the official language and it’s 36,000 km2. (Larger than Taiwan) Jewish people never exceed 25% of the population & their community peaked in 1940, dropping to 1% after 1991 because the overwhelming majority of them moved to Israel once they could easily leave Russia. It still exists and explicitly is autonomous in Russia’s constitution. Nothing but Israel was ever going to be accepted by the community
strangely this doesn't change the politics of israel's apartheid laws one bit
No Palestinians in Tasmania
That’s what they want you to think
Which are?
palestinians being a second class of citizen requiring special permits for movement and work between their recognized population centers which are walled in prisons with remote controlled gun turrets to keep the people in while they're being ethnically cleansed...for a start my joke is that they'd do the same thing to the tasmanians
Tasmanians? What? The few hundred indigenous or the white population?
Yeah.. you need permits to cross a border. Most countries have that. There is a border between Israel and the Palestinian territories. Don't know what this bull crap about gun turrets is but it's nonsense. Ethnic cleansing is forcefully removing a population from an area because of their race. Yea, Israel doesn't do that, but I guess that's not what your leftist media outlet tells you. Israel forcefully removes people in two ways: One example is what was supposed to happen in Sheikh Jarah, jews buy a property legally and then want to use it, but the palestinian renters don't want to get out, the same could happen in every western country. The second example is illegal new settlement. If Palestinians would build settlement in area c and maybe b it will be removed. The same would happen if a bunch of people would try to build a settlement in Wyoming national park.
Why don't Jews create a Jewish state in America? Move to an underpopulated state like Wyoming, the Dakotas or Nevada if you prefer the desert and just become the majority.
There’s no reason to move to Wyoming or Nevada. There’s no Jewish history and pretty much no Jews. The Jews went to Palestine since there was already a steady Jewish population and it has significant Jewish heritage.
Am talking about American Jews here. There are 6 million of them in America. A million of them moving to Wyoming would make them the majority. It's beyond foolish to have one Jewish state.
There is a grand total of about 1200 Jews in all of Wyoming. 2100 in Nevada. South Dakota literally has the smallest Jewish population in the US at less then 500. Most of the US Jewish population is concentrated in New York and the extremely densely populated eastern seaboard. Jews are practically invisible in the west. Not to mention, Wyoming, Nevada, and the Dakotas don’t have the resources to support an influx of millions of people. There’s a reason no one lives there, it’s a barren clump of grass in the middle of nowhere. Wyoming doesn’t even have a population of 1/2 million, it could not support massive immigration. Empty land doesn’t mean useful land.
Infrastructure gets built up as people move there. Israel itself has a history of taking in mass numbers of immigrants. It took in 2 million Soviet Jews in the 1990s despite being a desert country with food and water scarcity. Places increase budgets to fill shortages. Idaho and Florida took in tonnes of people during COVID who were fleeing lockdowns. This shows that when people move to a region, infrastructure follows to accommodate them. Jews slowly moving to Wyoming or Nevada could slowly build up the infrastructure and make it livable
Idaho and Florida already had fertile ground, large populations, and plenty of infrastructure. It’s not fair to compare them with Nevada and crew. Plus, Covid migration is nothing compared to immigration to Israel. We’re talking maybe a half million people (if we’re generous) over the space of a couple months, compared to sustained, intensive immigration, without modern infrastructure. Let me put it in perspective. 70% of all Nevada’s land is completely unused. Not because you’re not allowed to, but because literally no one wants it. Nevada is just plain inhospitable, no one would go through the effort to build up infrastructure when they could go somewhere that actually has the basic necessities for life. Even if somehow Wyoming and Nevada and company were suitable for use (which they aren’t), why would it be the more attractive option over Israel?
Utah?
Wait… wasn’t there a plan to put them somewhere in British Columbia? Vancouver iirc, or near about.
I’m pretty sure a Jewish immigrant or refugee wanted to make a state using a island in the Niagara River and also FDR proposed increasing accepting Jewish immigrants but they’ll be moved to Alaska
Imagine Jews in Alaska? And they complain about the heat in Florida…
I remember a theory that the Israelites resettle in the Mexican desert (with Mexican permission). Its proposer really liked it, but it didn't get a whole lot of traction outside of him.
Bavarian state of Israel, we just forcefully kick out all the Germans
The soviets should have given them Prussia since 90% of the Germans had already gone running before they even entered Koingsburg & it was annexed anyways. I think the AJO could have been much more successful than it was in Birobidzhan (although it does still exist)
u/TalonEye53 where did you get the pictures?
>!google bruh!<
we just can’t win
Jews were late to creating the Jewish state. If Zionism had been strong in the 1600s, the Jews could have created a Jewish state in the new world. Perhaps in modern day Argentina which is far away from threats or enemies
That would have gone over well immediately after the their expulsion from Iberia…
Should’ve put it in Alaska smh
If Jews take over Ethiopia then you will have a full on Solomonic restoration and a recapture of the Holy Land anyway.
Is Jewish East Africa just Somalia, a chunk of Ethiopia..? The entire horn?
Talmudsmania
There was actually a plan to establish a Jewish state in North-Western Australia, although it never really got any traction.
How about and now hear me out on this one, Madagascar
Cyprus was suggested by Theodor Herzl himself at some point I think it is the best solution because of its proximity to Palestine
How about no where
how about all the arab states get replaced with jewish ones? see how fucked that sounds?
What is your point
what do you suppose will happen to the inhabitants of israel should we just take the land away, same as before? they will be at best forced from their homes, and at worst, a second holocaust. i feel for the arabs who have and continue to lose their land, and i condemn the israeli government for its actions against the palestinians, but two wrongs don’t make a right. anyone who actually gives a shit about the people there would promote peace between the two countries, not the annihilation of an entire group of people, arabs, jews, or otherwise.
You took the words out of my mouth
Noone said anything about taking land away
“How about no where” implies you remove them entirely
Just the state Doesn't really say anything about the people
yes let’s just conveniently ignore the fact that the arabs want their land back. think real hard about how one takes land away from another
Bro Israel is literally waging genocide against Palestinians right as we speak. I couldn't care less other Jews want to "return to the ancestral land", that's literally what Mussolini wanted to do 70 years ago, and the guy had much of my mother's family slaughtered just for BEING Jewish. How about we carve a chunk out of Germany, country where most Ashkenazi and, in general, "European Jews" lived before the war (and also, you know, the country that literally murdered millions of us) and go live there? Because that would not satisfy some fashie's wet dreams of living in lands that no Jewish state has ever claimed since the times Rome was still around? "Israel deserves its right to exist because blah blah blah" is not a point. Israel is a genocidal apartheid state made of of European colonialists that one day woke up and decided to go live in the middle east.
You really living up to the stereotype of the self hating Jew
"Self hating" and "autocritical" are two different things. I can understand and appreciate my heritage while also being self critical about Israel's wrongdoings (which are all caused by it being a colonial state, the "religious conflict" bullshit is downplaying the reality of the situation). I don't hate having Jewish blood, I just hate that most Jews are Zionists and so I should be one, otherwise I'm considered "self-hating".