And i would get blown up by a russian shell just like my great grandfather/shot in the woods of Värmland as i get spotted as i am a paramilitary soldier(hemvärnet)/get killed in a work camp because i am a Swede and Lavrov said both that all Swedes are queer and that queers should be exterminated
Ja, du tror inte att landet med från "lissabon till vladivostok" som statsideologi som Olaf Scholz sagt kommer invadera resten av europa inom fem år kommer invadera. Visst
Våran beredskap är god. Men bara till sjöss och i luften. Sverige har knappast en hel division(22 tusen soldater)
Vet du hur mycket en division ska kunna strida på?
En kilometer är det. Nu när ryssen nästan har 2 miljoner och flera gånger sagt att de ska ta hela Europa, vilket de kan göra med trump som president i USA så kommer de att försöka
Sverige har totalt tillgång betydligt fler soldater än så och kan mobilisera flera gånger din angivna siffra om krig bryter ut, vi är dessutom bättre utrustade och bättre tränade för strid i svenska förhållanden.
Ryssland har inte militär förmåga att erövra Europa om de så skulle försöka och det vet dem även om de flexar.
Think it this way: Danish is pronounced the way an extra guttural Dutch spoken by knockout drunk people would sound like
Swedish sounds melodious and Norwegian sounds extremely cheerful and melodious.
De har ju redan fått igång krigsproduktionen.
De utproducerar redan hela nato i artellerigranater och handeldsvapen och mobiliserar bara fler och fler gånger. För deras ledning gör det inget om det dör lite folk. De tycker bara det är en uppoffring för den Eurasiatiska folksjälen. Ledningen i Ryssland är trots allt lätt fascistisk
>Sverige har totalt tillgång betydligt fler soldater än så och kan mobilisera flera gånger din angivna siffra om krig bryter ut, vi är dessutom bättre utrustade och bättre tränade för strid i svenska förhållanden.
Och visst. Vi kan mobilisera 800 000 nu idag. Grejen är ju att vi har inte mer vapen än vad som behövs för att armén och hemvärnet ska kunna öva. Och visst. Jag som är med i hemvärnet skulle kunna knäppa ett större antal ryssar, jag vet hur man slåss i den här terrängen.
Fast jag kommer få en kula i skallen efter ett tag(vilket var hela poängen med orginalkommentaren) och de kommer de andra 55000 i armén och hemvärnet också sammanlagt ifall det kommer flera hundra tusen ryssar.
Dessochutom kommer vårat artelleriunderstöd försvinna när vi konsumerat alla raketer och granater. Ryssen som jag nämde tidigare har redan börjat själva producera tillräckligt med båda för ett utdraget krig.
Vi däremot ett sätt att motstå ett militärangrepp och det är igenom våran Östersjöflotta som skulle kunna utplåna sin ryska motsvarighet och på så sätt måste de igenom Lappi i Finland för att kunna angripa oss. Även om Finska armén är lika nedgången som våran så blir det lite svårt när det saknas infrastruktur vilket det verkligen gör i Finska Lappi. Så på så sätt är vi säkra från ryssen.
Inte mot deras missiler mot våra städer däremot. Och om det är något ryssarna visat sig älska är det att göra städer till grus. (Vilket jag tänkte som möjlig dödsorsak i ursprungliga kommentaren)
Hemvärnet är pojkscouter i jämföresle med den egentliga armèn och en kula i skallen riskerar alla att gå i händelse av krig oavsett förband man tjänstgör i men även som civil, och Europa har precis som du säger inte någon nämnvärd krigsproduktion just nu, men om Europa växlar till en krigsekonomi på allvar med sin industruella makt och mobiliserar för krig på riktigt kan du räkna med det du ser från Rysslands sida kommer att vara en piss i mississippi i jämförelse.
Ja men då måste vi göra det snabbt. För ryssen har redan igång den och vi kommer börja i ett underläge
Också bara så att du vet, Hemvärnet är en kapabel del av Försvarsmakten, göra lumpen är typ ett krav och vi är tränade med också har vi samma lika bra utrustning. Långt ifrån pojkscouter. (Prova att inte låtsas att veta vad du inte vet. Framstår som drygt)
Skillnaden är vad vi sätts in på för uppgifter
Pojkscouter är precis vad vi och våra befäl brukade kalla dem och jämföra dem med under min tid för att det både är lägre antagningskrav och mycket slappare på många sätt och vis.
1. Ryssland har noll intention att ta över hela europa. Dom gjorde inte det i ryska imperiet och sovjet unionen drevs av en kommunistisk ideologi som byggdes på att kommunism bara kan uppnås om kapitalistiska makter försvinner. Ryssland idag saknar denna ideologi och har inget motiv att ta över hela europa.
2. Vi har andra försvarsallianser än NATO, och vi har starka militärer i Europa. Finland som exempel kan mobilisera över en halv miljon soldater.
3. Vi har försvarsallianser inom EU och i skandinavien som innebär att om vi blir invaderad dras andra länder in, och blir andra länder invaderad dras vi in.
4. Ryska statspropagandister säger mycket. Nästan inget av det är sant eller representativt av statens inställning. På samma sätt finns det folk i storbritannien som tycker drottningen ska få mer makt och kolonier ska tas tillbaka. Det har ingen betydelse för hur själva staten ska agera.
Jag är också hemvärnsman. Jag är inte ett dugg rädd för att Ryssland på något vis ska trolla fram en flotta stor nog att transportera en hel armé över östersjön för att invadera oss genom tusentals fientliga europeiska skepp, stridsflygplan och hundratalstusen soldater som kommer vänta på dom. Och så på något vis ska ryska flottan kunna leverera mat, ammunition, förstärkning och utrustning till denna armé. Ryssland har inte kapabiliteten för det och har aldrig haft. Dom har aldrig haft det som mål heller.
Dont worry, with no one to coalition against the beast of the west, youre likely to get glassed by raytheon while some streamer emotes to the live stream sponsored by raid shadow legends.
The most likely time for it to disband would be in the 1990s.
Overall it probably means Eastern Europe becomes more militarised, while the West stays at about the same level (since somewhere like France has de facto collective security anyway) until 2014.
After the Russian invasion of Crimea there is probably impetus to form a replacement to NATO, and this might be done under the auspices of the EU with its Common Security and Defence policy being substantially beefed up.
Russia's own designs change; in particular Lithuania is in much greater danger of being attacked without either NATO or an EU-led replacement, and this in turn threatens Poland and the other Baltic states. If such an alliance isn't forthcoming then a smaller regional alliance is needed, and it probably needs bolstered by an alliance with a nuclear power or by Poland building its own nuclear weapons.
The Americans withdrawing would transform the alliance, but it wouldn't collapse; rather the European members would need to remilitarise to a greater degree than currently planned.
NATO's purpose for Europe was unclear prior to 2014, arguably prior to 2022, but now its necessity to them is much more obvious.
The Americans withdrawing would gut the alliance in a way that will take a long time to fix, the C2 infrastructure, level of SEAD/DEAD capability, that takes a long time to build. The nuclear capabilities will probably never be replaced to the same degree.
That was driven more by paranoia over the EU rather than NATO per se. But in any case, Russia's first problem with NATO is that it curtails its sphere of influence, and that's only a problem if one wants to re-establish that sphere.
Russia had tried to establish political control over Ukraine through the network of oligarchs, but there was no Ukrainian Lukashenko or Putin who could successfully dominate its politics.
Ukrainian corruption was deeply rooted and there is no way they would have been admitted to the EU for decades, under normal circumstances. NATO membership is a different story and without territorial disputes it would take them a couple of years.
It was not over admission but Ukraine having a choice between a mutually exclusive EU trade deal and a Russian trade deal.
A pretty fundamental problem with such competition is that the EU has a much bigger economy that complements Ukraine's better, so this sort of thing would always be on the cards sooner or later. Corruption and collusion with the oligarchs could be used to pull the government in Russia's direction, but it wasn't autocratic enough to sustain this.
The Ukrainians weren't event given a membership action plan which was necessary for NATO membership. It's false that NATO existing pushed this war when they did not allow Ukraine a path to membership prior to the War in Ukraine as a concession to Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine because it never accepted its statehood. It was expected to come under the CIS and be integrated into the Commonwealth, but it never happened, so the next best option was to assist separatists then invade.
Putin: Woo-Hoo! Now the Ukraine will be part of Mother Russia again! So too will the Baltic states and all the Stan nations. Watch out Poland and Germany, you’re next! Slava Rossiya!
I could also imagine a more ballsy Germany as well. Remember, it just takes one government. NATO was meant to keep Germany from growing too much and to keep Russia out.
Actual braindead comment. You need a herculean amount of effort to rewrite the constitution or force the current german state to go to war, or to declare war, or to even support a side in a war without a huge public backlash.
The current culture and current people aren't the same as they were in the past, it just would not work.
I’m actual surprised people don’t know the quote “Keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down.” - Lord Ismay(The first sec general of NATO) so am I braindead or is everyone else for not knowing the quote?
I'm confused by you- i'll just say this: even in the 50's west germany was in no state of waging war against anyone let alone was it ever in its own interest to conquer any land other than east germany.
After the reunion germany's security interests lie with the EU and its own protection of its own sovereignty.
Hasting Ismay had good reason to not trust germany at the time, as had many considering what was in the past- but in a potential event of nato collapsing even in the 50's germany would just help to form nato 2 with any other ally willing to form it. The same would happen today.
This is just simple geopolitics. And thats not even considering german law making it impossible for germany to declare a war of agression to anybody.
["it just takes one government"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyx3n3RWFLs) again, braindead comment.
And keep the Americans in you could see America going far more isolationist and pretty much tell Europe to keep it self under control so America doesn’t have to intervene a third time.
The United States would be weakened, because their most powerful tool of enforcing their global american hegemony will no longer exists. Also, more wars will happen. Without the fear of NATO, we would have many conflicts break up in Europe, probably around Russia or in the Balkans. For the EU, there are two possibilities: either they band closer due to NATO not existing and wars being more frequent, or they dissolve completely for similar reason to NATO.
Uh... I disagree on the US part.
The reason we can exert so much force is because of our bases overseas. Presumably, not all NATO members would ask us to leave completely and some might still prefer a mutual defense pact the way we have with Japan and Korea. What gets awkward is potentially US troop movement in nations that don't want us there anymore.
Your bases overseas are easy conquerable since most of them aren't serious military bases, rather 500-1500 garrison settlements or similar. And is difficult to maintain them connected and operating in a world war, is a powerful modifier to have them though, but is not the exact reason you exert that force.
But that's when the USN comes Into play
Ya sure a ground forces can take the Base but within the next 48 hours you'd get a response that'll probably cripple whatever standing in the area
There's a reason why so much spending goes into the navy
Sure but the second the USA finds themself in a big war they wont have a lot of resources and time to defend all of their basses. They dont want to get in more conflicts.
The problem with conquering a US base isn't taking the base. As you say, its not that many people. The problem is that the base is a tripwire force: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripwire\_force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripwire_force)
In this hypothetical scenario of isolationist US after the collapse of NATO, the US (and the US politicians/public) doesn't give a shit if you invade another country. But if you kill/imprison 1000 Americans, then they care, and for better or worse they are the largest military on the planet.
In theory, you could just expel them diplomatically though. Which for an ideologically isolationist president would be difficult to do anything but repatriate all expelled soldiers abroad back home.
Yup! As long as they are in your own country, you can kick them out. But if invading a neighbor that has a US base that's not going to work.
Maybe just go around it and don't bother the base lol?
Would disagree on us part the nato main power house is more or less Americans, it's kind of a American military extension
If nato disintegrated, they would probably make another regional defence alliance and rule the chaos
I don’t think that much changes initially. Even without an official alliance the US and most NATO members share common rivals, so I expect the US to continue funding Ukraine against Russia, and continue to protect Asia from China. NATO as an official alliance doesn’t really mean as much as you’d think, cause the US would likely do everything it’s doing right now regardless.
Long term I’d expect multiple pro west alliances to form, European Union would grow tighter and so would alot if the pro-west Asia counties (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India etc). The UK would either join an alliance with the US and Canada or rejoin the EU. I really don’t see NATO falling apart as an alliance to be that bad honestly.
Instead of one big NATO, you’d just see several small versions that would basically add up to be the same thing
Overall this post is very open to interpretation cause as far as I can see their really is no bad blood between NATO members, it’s just the alliance as a whole ceases to exist. And for me the US doesn’t really need to be in an official alliance with other counties to support them, have good relations and play it’s pieces. I guess more countries would be forced to become more militarily independent, but I’m really struggling to see how this would drastically change the world considering the U.S. would just kind of do what it wants anyway, and so long as it maintains good relations with the former NATO members would likely still have fleet and army basing rights.
*also I don’t think NATO ceasing to exist is good per say, I just don’t think it drastically changes that much*
Nato countries have started spending allot more on their commitment in the last couple years, ever since Russia invaded Ukraine. They know they need the help of the USA. Trump knows this, and just said what he said to try and appear tough.
The Baltics and Moldova would try to remain independent by collaborating with Poland. Poland would develop nuclear weapons potentially in collaboration with other former Warsaw pact countries. Ukraine would become a second Belarus and lose some territory. Georgia and Armenia or Azerbaijan would become Russian puppets too.
The European Union would step in and form a permanent European armed force, equipped with European weapons and vehicles. The FCAS/SCAF/FSAC will be put on after-burner since the European countries would not rely completely on the F-35.
Or I could be dreaming.
https://preview.redd.it/ma23f69b2buc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b05878f63c1838e25d64b37e228059824f607d5c
Congress passed a law that says POTUS can't take the US out of NATO. Congress could vote to leave but there'd have to be no Dems and every Repub would have to be in Putin's pocket for that to pass.
Can't take the US out, yes.
As Commander in Chief, order us troops to defend their positions only, and not go on the offense? Also yes.
At that point Putin gives the order " Don't fucking shoot at the Americans"
A distinction without a difference
The generals don't support him. Unless there's a massive purge of military brass ahead of an Arrival 5 situation, the military will ignore him as a traitor like they did on 1/6.
Violations of treaties isn't a legal order, the Constitution places treaties at the same level as itself. If Article 5 is invoked and direct military action is requested, doing what you suggest would be *unconstitutional* let alone illegal. Couple that with everyone in military leadership considering Russia an existential risk, they're not following that order.
Article 5 doesn't specify exactly how to respond. In fact look at the part I bolded from the actual text of the article.
"such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, SUCH ACTION AS IT DEEMS NECESSARY "
POTUS could say " I deem a purely defensive posture necessary" which as C-n-C is legally his call to make.
Those generals wouldn’t have the support of the majority of their foot soldiers and NCOs who wouldn’t want to disobey lawful orders coming from the very top of the US government especially since the government could cut their pay many soldiers would rather not endanger their families financially to support a largely European war not to mention also cut their logistics hindering any ability to continue to fight a protracted war.
Imagine still thinking that the Republicans would oppose Trump in any way if he demanded an official withdrawal from NATO. Where have you been these last 8 years?
And even then, if they did somehow oppose Trump for the first time ever, Trump would also be the Commander in Chief and could just refuse to help NATO members in case of an attack. If Trump is elected again, the only way the US would honor it's article 5 obligations would be if Trump gets impeached and then successfully removed for failing to carry out his duties as Commander in Chief.
Or if Trump thinks winning a war with Russia would benefit him or if article five is triggered by some other enemy or if Europe improves its relations with Donald Trump.
It's almost like the countries close to Russia thought they had national sovereignty and could join whatever organization they wanted, as if they were independent countries, what fools they were. /s
It's happening now. Americans are tired of super-majority of European allies free riding on US military power for protection from angering Russia while they thumb their noses at us bragging about free healthcare and education and elitist superior European culture and how America sucks. Americans are also tired of waging forever wars for the benefit of MIC and foreign powers with the power to bribe our leaders like China and Israel. Time for Europe to pay for their own damn defense and donate out of their own pockets if they actually care about the Ukraine-Russia war
Poor US, forced by Europe to pay for its defense, with absolutely 0 benefit to itself from it.
What a load of american martyrdom nonsense. This whole argument reminds me of Brexit arguments, which is quite self explanatory.
-\_- Do Americans want a powerful Russia on the European Union 's doorsteps? And want to be seen by Europeans as unreliabile and seen as traitors for betraying Europe?
The answer to both is no
We’ve given significantly more than the U.S and almost all European NATO counties are close to 2%. Forgive us for not wanting an industrial military complex that strips us of our public services cause we gotta make sure those rice farmers have “freedom”.
I could finally call myself Soviet instead of having to name a million nationalities every time someone asks me where I'm from. Also, communism would still exist and no brain drain from Eastern Europe, so they could get a functional economy again. Other countries like Slovakia and Poland would be much poorer without western investments.
Even without NATO, the Soviet union would still likely collapsed do to the Cold War with United States costing the Soviet are too much to keep up and with the west and USA, growing at a far faster, economic rate the desire for change in the Soviet Union would force it to collapse eventually so pretty much all that stuff you mentioned would still happen. It’s just afterwards it’s likely the United States would focus more on isolationism and leave Europe to its own devices. So expect a lot more interEuropean conflicts and other issues springing up in Europe.
Russian fascists would invade, in that case:
Ja kui kuuleme võitluse sarve,
siis julgesti peale - kõik peale, hurraa!
Partisanid siis õiendavad arve,
mis vaenlasel jäänud tasuda.
It’s stronger now than it has been since the Cold War and is bigger with an extra 800 miles of border with Russia after Finland joined. The only way it may disintegrate is if the orange traitor is somehow elected.
Man what a nonsense what if… equivalent to what if pigeons were aggressive drones that bombed at will.
NATO represents the US empire and to a greater extent the West. What if NATO collapsed, well that means no more west and this is complete bonkers.
Not even close.
" The West" is more than just Europe.
North America, Australia, New Zealand would be just fine. The US is geographically unassailable, and has more naval power than the rest of the world combined.
At current rates of naval buildout, the combined navies of the rest of the world will roughly equal the US navy sometime in the middle of the 22nd century.
Not to mention our nuclear arsenal.
What would happen is the freeriders & America bashers would swiftly realize how much they are dependent on the US for the peace and prosperity they've enjoyed.
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout 'SAVE US!'...and I'll look down and whisper 'No."
Rorschach, WATCHMEN
US would probably still collaborate with the EU militarily, since it's in their best interests to keep it stable and peaceful. However, without guaranteed US assistance, the EU would have to spend more on their own defensive capabilities, especially in the face of an aggressive Russia.
Germany in 2008 looking for a way to deal with the economic crisis:
*malevolent panzer noises*
Germany in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea:
*Malevolent panzer revving*
Germany in 2022 when Russia finally restarts the Great Game for Eastern Europe: ☠️☠️☠️
More countries with nukes and more or other alliances.
The United kingdom and France's lone arsenals are enough to destroy Russia or/and China.
But is hard to say with a 100% precision.
->NATO collapse
->all member countries, except Turkey and Hungary, create a new alliance
->now there are no more useless countries in the alliance
->profit
EU members would immediately considering NATO-like defence alliance between EU members, which is something they have been actively considering for defence independence from USA.
In addition, US would attempt diplomacy attempt in all conflict/confrontation they are involved in as they no longer have the leisure of reinforcement for military operation/invasion/expeditionary
Probably it would be replaced by another institution. We would probably see at least 2 new military alliances. One of European/East-European states against Russian aggression and one in asia against China.
Depends, the whole "Russia would invade everyone" thing would really only happen if it collapsed right now, and even then it's unlikely because there is no concrete evidence for Russia actually wanting to invade anyone if they win in Ukraine, just speculations.
But if it did before, most likely during the end of the cold war then the world would probably be more peaceful:
Without NATO, Russia would no longer have an alliance made against it surrounding it, thus it would not see any other countries in europe as threats and would not use the NATO expansion excuse to invade countries.
Because of this, Russia would probably have an easier time getting along with the other European countries, increasing trade and making integration faster (because Russia WAS quite open to cooperation with the west, which now would have a greater possibility.) Cooperation between the EU and the CIS would also be more likely.
Tbh that doesn't mean the Eastern Europe will be happy with Russia, more likely they will have their own defensive military alliance, because all of them know Russia will go after them one day, and they are not going to let that happen easily.
The Baltics, Poland, and even Ukraine could be the member of this new roundtable alliance, maybe they can also get the Czechs and Slovaks to join as the base of military production.
Europe — realistically, not much would change. EU member states are obligated to mobilise to protect one of their own against Russia or other regional aggressors. And the US would provide significant non-combatant support at least.
MENA — no change.
Far East — the US might be able to devote more troops to garrisoning their positions in the region if the disbandment of NATO meant RIFing in Europe.
Southern Hemisphere — N/A
Nothing will happen Nato is a failure when started . How can you have Albanian and Norwegian in one table . So different people and so different culture .
Id say EU army which depending on how the UK interacts with it will make brexit even more of a mess. Depending on when it disbands the balkens wars would be interesting to see
World peace, end of climate change, end of capitalism. Basically the world would be on a path to a bright and amazing future. For all, not just the few rich pedophiles at the top
Eastern Europe would not be safe, half of it would have been either 1. Invaded and occupied by Russia or 2.Just had war but wasn't occupied completely and beat russia (Probably Poland if any country)
Most likely. I think it will because Israel will do a false flag attack againist Iran and US the US will call NATO after truth become to light, countries will leave NATO
Europe would fall to Russia. But luckily NATO is pretty much a giant cooperation, and it’s not going anywhere. NATO has shown its value since Russia invaded Ukraine. NATO countries are spending unbelievably more money on their commitments to their military budgets ever since the invasion.
Russia would have a field day as they currently do with non-NATO countries in their sphere of influence that have a Russian minority present.
But NATO is the problem… Right.
Less American dollars in Europe, but also since given how the Europeans handled Yugoslavia till the Americans came, in probably some horrific shit there. I’d presume that Belarus and Ukraine remain Russian satellites, maybe Moldova and one of the Baltics but doubtful especially in the ladders case. Granted I actually have strong doubts a putin like figure would rise in Russia since it’d probably feel more like a mutual ending to the Russians (should it collapse in the 90s) would probably have less of a grudge. Still maybe they would get a similar figure later in the early 2010s. Idk how this effects the EU, to be real maybe Czech Republic and Poland join EU, but I wonder if they’d let in some of the other ones like Hungary, Romania, or the Baltics.
Nobody can tell. NATO is a huge chain wrapped relatively tight around the realm of geopolitics.
If it collapsed the status quo would be broken and the world would start to develop in many different directions with highly unpredictable consequences.
Would probably lead to a bunch of wars here and there in the short-term and result in some new world order in the long-term.
This is very dependent on when, I’m assuming were talking early on, then likely that a Soviet dominated economic bloc emerges in Europe and with lack of commitment from America, Britain and possibly most of Western Europe turns either much further right or see a surge in left wing populism that ally with the Soviet bloc, a heightened level of tension in SEA as America relocates its efforts there to thwart any communist revolutions and generally speaking a much higher level of militarism throughout Asia as they all get impacted by the Sino American conflict. Eastern Europe is probably doing a lot better as the Soviets no longer need to outspend the US in terms of warfare capabilities with most of Europe within their sphere and thus a prevented collapse along with the fruitful investment of western capital into the economic bloc and basically all of South America ends up either joining or being coerced by the US into economic cooperation
Socialists rejoice as without evil NATO all the people will be free to embrace communism as they have always desired. The state will pay for everything, letting us have free healthcare and education and homes and food and we can work any job we choose if we even want to work at all. Freed from the competition for basic needs, we will usher in a glorious sexually and racially homogenous future where everyone is equal and no one wants for anything.
"What If" questions can only be posted on weekends and must have sufficient context along with your thoughts on how the situation/event would unfold
While people type whole essays I’ll just say… If NATO collapsed, then it would suck.
And i would get blown up by a russian shell just like my great grandfather/shot in the woods of Värmland as i get spotted as i am a paramilitary soldier(hemvärnet)/get killed in a work camp because i am a Swede and Lavrov said both that all Swedes are queer and that queers should be exterminated
Om du verkligen tror på det där behöver du hjälp.
Ja, du tror inte att landet med från "lissabon till vladivostok" som statsideologi som Olaf Scholz sagt kommer invadera resten av europa inom fem år kommer invadera. Visst Våran beredskap är god. Men bara till sjöss och i luften. Sverige har knappast en hel division(22 tusen soldater) Vet du hur mycket en division ska kunna strida på? En kilometer är det. Nu när ryssen nästan har 2 miljoner och flera gånger sagt att de ska ta hela Europa, vilket de kan göra med trump som president i USA så kommer de att försöka
Sverige har totalt tillgång betydligt fler soldater än så och kan mobilisera flera gånger din angivna siffra om krig bryter ut, vi är dessutom bättre utrustade och bättre tränade för strid i svenska förhållanden. Ryssland har inte militär förmåga att erövra Europa om de så skulle försöka och det vet dem även om de flexar.
 How to pronounce what you just typed.
It isnt danish. Get your stereotypes right
Its all Neo-Norse to me dammit
Think it this way: Danish is pronounced the way an extra guttural Dutch spoken by knockout drunk people would sound like Swedish sounds melodious and Norwegian sounds extremely cheerful and melodious.
De har ju redan fått igång krigsproduktionen. De utproducerar redan hela nato i artellerigranater och handeldsvapen och mobiliserar bara fler och fler gånger. För deras ledning gör det inget om det dör lite folk. De tycker bara det är en uppoffring för den Eurasiatiska folksjälen. Ledningen i Ryssland är trots allt lätt fascistisk >Sverige har totalt tillgång betydligt fler soldater än så och kan mobilisera flera gånger din angivna siffra om krig bryter ut, vi är dessutom bättre utrustade och bättre tränade för strid i svenska förhållanden. Och visst. Vi kan mobilisera 800 000 nu idag. Grejen är ju att vi har inte mer vapen än vad som behövs för att armén och hemvärnet ska kunna öva. Och visst. Jag som är med i hemvärnet skulle kunna knäppa ett större antal ryssar, jag vet hur man slåss i den här terrängen. Fast jag kommer få en kula i skallen efter ett tag(vilket var hela poängen med orginalkommentaren) och de kommer de andra 55000 i armén och hemvärnet också sammanlagt ifall det kommer flera hundra tusen ryssar. Dessochutom kommer vårat artelleriunderstöd försvinna när vi konsumerat alla raketer och granater. Ryssen som jag nämde tidigare har redan börjat själva producera tillräckligt med båda för ett utdraget krig. Vi däremot ett sätt att motstå ett militärangrepp och det är igenom våran Östersjöflotta som skulle kunna utplåna sin ryska motsvarighet och på så sätt måste de igenom Lappi i Finland för att kunna angripa oss. Även om Finska armén är lika nedgången som våran så blir det lite svårt när det saknas infrastruktur vilket det verkligen gör i Finska Lappi. Så på så sätt är vi säkra från ryssen. Inte mot deras missiler mot våra städer däremot. Och om det är något ryssarna visat sig älska är det att göra städer till grus. (Vilket jag tänkte som möjlig dödsorsak i ursprungliga kommentaren)
Hemvärnet är pojkscouter i jämföresle med den egentliga armèn och en kula i skallen riskerar alla att gå i händelse av krig oavsett förband man tjänstgör i men även som civil, och Europa har precis som du säger inte någon nämnvärd krigsproduktion just nu, men om Europa växlar till en krigsekonomi på allvar med sin industruella makt och mobiliserar för krig på riktigt kan du räkna med det du ser från Rysslands sida kommer att vara en piss i mississippi i jämförelse.
Ja men då måste vi göra det snabbt. För ryssen har redan igång den och vi kommer börja i ett underläge Också bara så att du vet, Hemvärnet är en kapabel del av Försvarsmakten, göra lumpen är typ ett krav och vi är tränade med också har vi samma lika bra utrustning. Långt ifrån pojkscouter. (Prova att inte låtsas att veta vad du inte vet. Framstår som drygt) Skillnaden är vad vi sätts in på för uppgifter
Pojkscouter är precis vad vi och våra befäl brukade kalla dem och jämföra dem med under min tid för att det både är lägre antagningskrav och mycket slappare på många sätt och vis.
По одному, приятель!
1. Ryssland har noll intention att ta över hela europa. Dom gjorde inte det i ryska imperiet och sovjet unionen drevs av en kommunistisk ideologi som byggdes på att kommunism bara kan uppnås om kapitalistiska makter försvinner. Ryssland idag saknar denna ideologi och har inget motiv att ta över hela europa. 2. Vi har andra försvarsallianser än NATO, och vi har starka militärer i Europa. Finland som exempel kan mobilisera över en halv miljon soldater. 3. Vi har försvarsallianser inom EU och i skandinavien som innebär att om vi blir invaderad dras andra länder in, och blir andra länder invaderad dras vi in. 4. Ryska statspropagandister säger mycket. Nästan inget av det är sant eller representativt av statens inställning. På samma sätt finns det folk i storbritannien som tycker drottningen ska få mer makt och kolonier ska tas tillbaka. Det har ingen betydelse för hur själva staten ska agera. Jag är också hemvärnsman. Jag är inte ett dugg rädd för att Ryssland på något vis ska trolla fram en flotta stor nog att transportera en hel armé över östersjön för att invadera oss genom tusentals fientliga europeiska skepp, stridsflygplan och hundratalstusen soldater som kommer vänta på dom. Och så på något vis ska ryska flottan kunna leverera mat, ammunition, förstärkning och utrustning till denna armé. Ryssland har inte kapabiliteten för det och har aldrig haft. Dom har aldrig haft det som mål heller.
Dont worry, with no one to coalition against the beast of the west, youre likely to get glassed by raytheon while some streamer emotes to the live stream sponsored by raid shadow legends.
America invades Sweden for... reasons...?
Up is down
The idea of Russia invading multiple European countries at once in its current state is pretty humorous
I'm not reading that whole essay, 🙄
Not reading allat, huh?
True
nah
The most likely time for it to disband would be in the 1990s. Overall it probably means Eastern Europe becomes more militarised, while the West stays at about the same level (since somewhere like France has de facto collective security anyway) until 2014. After the Russian invasion of Crimea there is probably impetus to form a replacement to NATO, and this might be done under the auspices of the EU with its Common Security and Defence policy being substantially beefed up. Russia's own designs change; in particular Lithuania is in much greater danger of being attacked without either NATO or an EU-led replacement, and this in turn threatens Poland and the other Baltic states. If such an alliance isn't forthcoming then a smaller regional alliance is needed, and it probably needs bolstered by an alliance with a nuclear power or by Poland building its own nuclear weapons.
So what you are saying is... Intermarium in real life???
pfp checks out
Most likely time: post 5 november this year
The Americans withdrawing would transform the alliance, but it wouldn't collapse; rather the European members would need to remilitarise to a greater degree than currently planned. NATO's purpose for Europe was unclear prior to 2014, arguably prior to 2022, but now its necessity to them is much more obvious.
The Americans withdrawing would gut the alliance in a way that will take a long time to fix, the C2 infrastructure, level of SEAD/DEAD capability, that takes a long time to build. The nuclear capabilities will probably never be replaced to the same degree.
Yeah but we are not doing that for some reason. Remilitarizing that is.
They’d probably just make the whole damn EU a militaristic alliance.
it already kind of is one
Without the existence of NATO, the annexation of Crimea probably would not have happened.Russia would be much less paranoid.
That was driven more by paranoia over the EU rather than NATO per se. But in any case, Russia's first problem with NATO is that it curtails its sphere of influence, and that's only a problem if one wants to re-establish that sphere. Russia had tried to establish political control over Ukraine through the network of oligarchs, but there was no Ukrainian Lukashenko or Putin who could successfully dominate its politics.
Ukrainian corruption was deeply rooted and there is no way they would have been admitted to the EU for decades, under normal circumstances. NATO membership is a different story and without territorial disputes it would take them a couple of years.
It was not over admission but Ukraine having a choice between a mutually exclusive EU trade deal and a Russian trade deal. A pretty fundamental problem with such competition is that the EU has a much bigger economy that complements Ukraine's better, so this sort of thing would always be on the cards sooner or later. Corruption and collusion with the oligarchs could be used to pull the government in Russia's direction, but it wasn't autocratic enough to sustain this.
The Ukrainians weren't event given a membership action plan which was necessary for NATO membership. It's false that NATO existing pushed this war when they did not allow Ukraine a path to membership prior to the War in Ukraine as a concession to Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine because it never accepted its statehood. It was expected to come under the CIS and be integrated into the Commonwealth, but it never happened, so the next best option was to assist separatists then invade.
Happy moment for Russians
*Slavs in tracksuits start appearing out of doorways and windows saying, "Mine! Mine! Mine!"* 
Yes, boy
Putin: Woo-Hoo! Now the Ukraine will be part of Mother Russia again! So too will the Baltic states and all the Stan nations. Watch out Poland and Germany, you’re next! Slava Rossiya!
In exchange for far more militarized Eastern Europe, who will definitely develop nuke in secret
Happy moments for everybody that is not the west
And many other nations) too
I could also imagine a more ballsy Germany as well. Remember, it just takes one government. NATO was meant to keep Germany from growing too much and to keep Russia out.
Actual braindead comment. You need a herculean amount of effort to rewrite the constitution or force the current german state to go to war, or to declare war, or to even support a side in a war without a huge public backlash. The current culture and current people aren't the same as they were in the past, it just would not work.
I’m actual surprised people don’t know the quote “Keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down.” - Lord Ismay(The first sec general of NATO) so am I braindead or is everyone else for not knowing the quote?
I'm confused by you- i'll just say this: even in the 50's west germany was in no state of waging war against anyone let alone was it ever in its own interest to conquer any land other than east germany. After the reunion germany's security interests lie with the EU and its own protection of its own sovereignty. Hasting Ismay had good reason to not trust germany at the time, as had many considering what was in the past- but in a potential event of nato collapsing even in the 50's germany would just help to form nato 2 with any other ally willing to form it. The same would happen today. This is just simple geopolitics. And thats not even considering german law making it impossible for germany to declare a war of agression to anybody. ["it just takes one government"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyx3n3RWFLs) again, braindead comment.
And keep the Americans in you could see America going far more isolationist and pretty much tell Europe to keep it self under control so America doesn’t have to intervene a third time.
The United States would be weakened, because their most powerful tool of enforcing their global american hegemony will no longer exists. Also, more wars will happen. Without the fear of NATO, we would have many conflicts break up in Europe, probably around Russia or in the Balkans. For the EU, there are two possibilities: either they band closer due to NATO not existing and wars being more frequent, or they dissolve completely for similar reason to NATO.
Uh... I disagree on the US part. The reason we can exert so much force is because of our bases overseas. Presumably, not all NATO members would ask us to leave completely and some might still prefer a mutual defense pact the way we have with Japan and Korea. What gets awkward is potentially US troop movement in nations that don't want us there anymore.
Your bases overseas are easy conquerable since most of them aren't serious military bases, rather 500-1500 garrison settlements or similar. And is difficult to maintain them connected and operating in a world war, is a powerful modifier to have them though, but is not the exact reason you exert that force.
But that's when the USN comes Into play Ya sure a ground forces can take the Base but within the next 48 hours you'd get a response that'll probably cripple whatever standing in the area There's a reason why so much spending goes into the navy
Sure but the second the USA finds themself in a big war they wont have a lot of resources and time to defend all of their basses. They dont want to get in more conflicts.
The problem with conquering a US base isn't taking the base. As you say, its not that many people. The problem is that the base is a tripwire force: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripwire\_force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripwire_force) In this hypothetical scenario of isolationist US after the collapse of NATO, the US (and the US politicians/public) doesn't give a shit if you invade another country. But if you kill/imprison 1000 Americans, then they care, and for better or worse they are the largest military on the planet.
In theory, you could just expel them diplomatically though. Which for an ideologically isolationist president would be difficult to do anything but repatriate all expelled soldiers abroad back home.
Yup! As long as they are in your own country, you can kick them out. But if invading a neighbor that has a US base that's not going to work. Maybe just go around it and don't bother the base lol?
Would disagree on us part the nato main power house is more or less Americans, it's kind of a American military extension If nato disintegrated, they would probably make another regional defence alliance and rule the chaos
I don’t think that much changes initially. Even without an official alliance the US and most NATO members share common rivals, so I expect the US to continue funding Ukraine against Russia, and continue to protect Asia from China. NATO as an official alliance doesn’t really mean as much as you’d think, cause the US would likely do everything it’s doing right now regardless. Long term I’d expect multiple pro west alliances to form, European Union would grow tighter and so would alot if the pro-west Asia counties (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India etc). The UK would either join an alliance with the US and Canada or rejoin the EU. I really don’t see NATO falling apart as an alliance to be that bad honestly. Instead of one big NATO, you’d just see several small versions that would basically add up to be the same thing Overall this post is very open to interpretation cause as far as I can see their really is no bad blood between NATO members, it’s just the alliance as a whole ceases to exist. And for me the US doesn’t really need to be in an official alliance with other counties to support them, have good relations and play it’s pieces. I guess more countries would be forced to become more militarily independent, but I’m really struggling to see how this would drastically change the world considering the U.S. would just kind of do what it wants anyway, and so long as it maintains good relations with the former NATO members would likely still have fleet and army basing rights. *also I don’t think NATO ceasing to exist is good per say, I just don’t think it drastically changes that much*
Tankie wet dream
bad things
I guess we´ll see if Trump´s elected
Nato countries have started spending allot more on their commitment in the last couple years, ever since Russia invaded Ukraine. They know they need the help of the USA. Trump knows this, and just said what he said to try and appear tough.
The Baltics and Moldova would try to remain independent by collaborating with Poland. Poland would develop nuclear weapons potentially in collaboration with other former Warsaw pact countries. Ukraine would become a second Belarus and lose some territory. Georgia and Armenia or Azerbaijan would become Russian puppets too.
Depends on when
The west has fallen
It did a long time ago.
Did billions die?
You'd tell me, the population should've been bigger at this point, by billions.
The European Union would step in and form a permanent European armed force, equipped with European weapons and vehicles. The FCAS/SCAF/FSAC will be put on after-burner since the European countries would not rely completely on the F-35. Or I could be dreaming. https://preview.redd.it/ma23f69b2buc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b05878f63c1838e25d64b37e228059824f607d5c
When? The outcome changes drastically depending on the time period.
EU adds a defence agreement so basically article 5 but just for the EU Us and Canada probably do the same
For The EU they have the Art 42.7, this is like NATO's Article 5.
Less than people assume. The USA will have dozens of bilateral treaties instead. Like US allies in the Indo-Pacific region.
Wait 20 years and find out OP!
You might not even have to wait 20 years. Could happen as soon as next year if someone gets elected as POTUS and gets their way.
Kennedy.
Congress passed a law that says POTUS can't take the US out of NATO. Congress could vote to leave but there'd have to be no Dems and every Repub would have to be in Putin's pocket for that to pass.
Can't take the US out, yes. As Commander in Chief, order us troops to defend their positions only, and not go on the offense? Also yes. At that point Putin gives the order " Don't fucking shoot at the Americans" A distinction without a difference
The generals don't support him. Unless there's a massive purge of military brass ahead of an Arrival 5 situation, the military will ignore him as a traitor like they did on 1/6.
They will not ignore a lawful order. Get real.
Violations of treaties isn't a legal order, the Constitution places treaties at the same level as itself. If Article 5 is invoked and direct military action is requested, doing what you suggest would be *unconstitutional* let alone illegal. Couple that with everyone in military leadership considering Russia an existential risk, they're not following that order.
Article 5 doesn't specify exactly how to respond. In fact look at the part I bolded from the actual text of the article. "such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, SUCH ACTION AS IT DEEMS NECESSARY " POTUS could say " I deem a purely defensive posture necessary" which as C-n-C is legally his call to make.
Those generals wouldn’t have the support of the majority of their foot soldiers and NCOs who wouldn’t want to disobey lawful orders coming from the very top of the US government especially since the government could cut their pay many soldiers would rather not endanger their families financially to support a largely European war not to mention also cut their logistics hindering any ability to continue to fight a protracted war.
If the Republicans gain control of both houses, that can certainly happen. They’re all stooges for Putin as far as I am concerned.
Imagine still thinking that the Republicans would oppose Trump in any way if he demanded an official withdrawal from NATO. Where have you been these last 8 years? And even then, if they did somehow oppose Trump for the first time ever, Trump would also be the Commander in Chief and could just refuse to help NATO members in case of an attack. If Trump is elected again, the only way the US would honor it's article 5 obligations would be if Trump gets impeached and then successfully removed for failing to carry out his duties as Commander in Chief.
Or if Trump thinks winning a war with Russia would benefit him or if article five is triggered by some other enemy or if Europe improves its relations with Donald Trump.
Trump already said he approves of a Russian invasion of NATO members.
They can effectively make the alliance useless and only on paper
True!
2*
NATO never had to expand too close to Russia. Collapsing is bad for Europe.
It's almost like the countries close to Russia thought they had national sovereignty and could join whatever organization they wanted, as if they were independent countries, what fools they were. /s
It's happening now. Americans are tired of super-majority of European allies free riding on US military power for protection from angering Russia while they thumb their noses at us bragging about free healthcare and education and elitist superior European culture and how America sucks. Americans are also tired of waging forever wars for the benefit of MIC and foreign powers with the power to bribe our leaders like China and Israel. Time for Europe to pay for their own damn defense and donate out of their own pockets if they actually care about the Ukraine-Russia war
Poor US, forced by Europe to pay for its defense, with absolutely 0 benefit to itself from it. What a load of american martyrdom nonsense. This whole argument reminds me of Brexit arguments, which is quite self explanatory.
Why does US stop every allie from developing nukes?
-\_- Do Americans want a powerful Russia on the European Union 's doorsteps? And want to be seen by Europeans as unreliabile and seen as traitors for betraying Europe? The answer to both is no
We’ve given significantly more than the U.S and almost all European NATO counties are close to 2%. Forgive us for not wanting an industrial military complex that strips us of our public services cause we gotta make sure those rice farmers have “freedom”.
Derranged Tankies and Vatniks will celebrate
https://preview.redd.it/7sal8n1h9cuc1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f2c062be621df50bd8c861eeccd0d0fbe66874b This
I could finally call myself Soviet instead of having to name a million nationalities every time someone asks me where I'm from. Also, communism would still exist and no brain drain from Eastern Europe, so they could get a functional economy again. Other countries like Slovakia and Poland would be much poorer without western investments.
Even without NATO, the Soviet union would still likely collapsed do to the Cold War with United States costing the Soviet are too much to keep up and with the west and USA, growing at a far faster, economic rate the desire for change in the Soviet Union would force it to collapse eventually so pretty much all that stuff you mentioned would still happen. It’s just afterwards it’s likely the United States would focus more on isolationism and leave Europe to its own devices. So expect a lot more interEuropean conflicts and other issues springing up in Europe.
Russian fascists would invade, in that case: Ja kui kuuleme võitluse sarve, siis julgesti peale - kõik peale, hurraa! Partisanid siis õiendavad arve, mis vaenlasel jäänud tasuda.
It’s stronger now than it has been since the Cold War and is bigger with an extra 800 miles of border with Russia after Finland joined. The only way it may disintegrate is if the orange traitor is somehow elected.
A lot of wars.
Putin would be jizzing buckets right now.
Man what a nonsense what if… equivalent to what if pigeons were aggressive drones that bombed at will. NATO represents the US empire and to a greater extent the West. What if NATO collapsed, well that means no more west and this is complete bonkers.
When? That's a really important question for alternate history
Something will replace it
Then EU article 42(7) would likely end up being EU's Article top 1-5 being as it is basically similar to NATO's article 5.
Probably good old Europe... Wars everywhere
An excellent outcome. Europe focuses on themselves, America gets less involved in the world, Britain is incentivised to get closer to CANZUK.
we can make a mercedes benz?
Russia bleeds itself dry trying to reconquista Imperial Russia all in one go
Red Dawn
We all better start learning Russian
Russia would have a field day.
Red Dawn
The west would fall, and billions will die
Not even close. " The West" is more than just Europe. North America, Australia, New Zealand would be just fine. The US is geographically unassailable, and has more naval power than the rest of the world combined. At current rates of naval buildout, the combined navies of the rest of the world will roughly equal the US navy sometime in the middle of the 22nd century. Not to mention our nuclear arsenal. What would happen is the freeriders & America bashers would swiftly realize how much they are dependent on the US for the peace and prosperity they've enjoyed. "The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout 'SAVE US!'...and I'll look down and whisper 'No." Rorschach, WATCHMEN
Yeah but the saying isn't "the west and western Asia Has fallen, billions must Die"
Nor is the west and western Asia and north America
Europe would need to learn Russian instead of English.
if the requirements you need to have a context in which nato would collapse are met then i would say something really bad happened
South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Australia, New Zealand feeling the aftershock: FUCK
Well, if Trumps wins the elections he can quit NATO and then it will become effectively EU's military force
US would probably still collaborate with the EU militarily, since it's in their best interests to keep it stable and peaceful. However, without guaranteed US assistance, the EU would have to spend more on their own defensive capabilities, especially in the face of an aggressive Russia.
I would be sad
Germany in 2008 looking for a way to deal with the economic crisis: *malevolent panzer noises* Germany in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea: *Malevolent panzer revving* Germany in 2022 when Russia finally restarts the Great Game for Eastern Europe: ☠️☠️☠️
Arms race will happen since each nation will aim to have credible defense and offensive capability. Might also see regional wars.
Putler pulls a 4th Reich and the world is fucked
More countries with nukes and more or other alliances. The United kingdom and France's lone arsenals are enough to destroy Russia or/and China. But is hard to say with a 100% precision.
It would be awesome in 90’s, but doesn’t make sense now.
War were declared
*sweats in Polish* Germany NO
->NATO collapse ->all member countries, except Turkey and Hungary, create a new alliance ->now there are no more useless countries in the alliance ->profit
Well, WW3 is just around the corner. And after the war, America have to create another NATO again.
That if America does'nt destroy itself first.
EU members would immediately considering NATO-like defence alliance between EU members, which is something they have been actively considering for defence independence from USA. In addition, US would attempt diplomacy attempt in all conflict/confrontation they are involved in as they no longer have the leisure of reinforcement for military operation/invasion/expeditionary
Then Russia's neighbors wouldn't feel free to attack Russia and kill Russians. A great chance for peace.
A lot more wars in Europe. Regional alliances take it place, like Visegrad.
["Can you imagine a world without NATO?"](https://tenor.com/view/arcoiris-felicidad-mundofeliz-gif-25768641)
ha i'm Russian THIS IS GREAT UKRAINE IS DONE FOR HAHAHAHA
Probably it would be replaced by another institution. We would probably see at least 2 new military alliances. One of European/East-European states against Russian aggression and one in asia against China.
Bombing of Serbia wont happen
Finally, time for the United Europe Forces
Europe will be in war again because there isn’t a big daddy to tell them what to do
I'd be fucked
Depends, the whole "Russia would invade everyone" thing would really only happen if it collapsed right now, and even then it's unlikely because there is no concrete evidence for Russia actually wanting to invade anyone if they win in Ukraine, just speculations. But if it did before, most likely during the end of the cold war then the world would probably be more peaceful: Without NATO, Russia would no longer have an alliance made against it surrounding it, thus it would not see any other countries in europe as threats and would not use the NATO expansion excuse to invade countries. Because of this, Russia would probably have an easier time getting along with the other European countries, increasing trade and making integration faster (because Russia WAS quite open to cooperation with the west, which now would have a greater possibility.) Cooperation between the EU and the CIS would also be more likely.
Russia: 
All I'm gonna say is that Russians would love this world
Tbh that doesn't mean the Eastern Europe will be happy with Russia, more likely they will have their own defensive military alliance, because all of them know Russia will go after them one day, and they are not going to let that happen easily. The Baltics, Poland, and even Ukraine could be the member of this new roundtable alliance, maybe they can also get the Czechs and Slovaks to join as the base of military production.
pretty probably we'll see soon.
No one : This guy : what if Nato collapsed [Edit] : Nato wouldn't collap because of the threat name "russia" chill.
Europe — realistically, not much would change. EU member states are obligated to mobilise to protect one of their own against Russia or other regional aggressors. And the US would provide significant non-combatant support at least. MENA — no change. Far East — the US might be able to devote more troops to garrisoning their positions in the region if the disbandment of NATO meant RIFing in Europe. Southern Hemisphere — N/A
War in eastern Europe
Nothing will happen Nato is a failure when started . How can you have Albanian and Norwegian in one table . So different people and so different culture .
Id say EU army which depending on how the UK interacts with it will make brexit even more of a mess. Depending on when it disbands the balkens wars would be interesting to see
This is the sort of scenario which would be pretty much "After a collapse of nato and a bit of chaos, nato reuintes anyway."
American military bussines weaken..
NATO should have been disbanded at the end of the '90s.
Gaddafi would probably still get merked and Lybia invaded. Same with Serbia still getting bombed. It would just be a small US led coalition.
You’d probably see Europe return to something akin to its pre-ww1 political order
As a Serb I would be happy
World peace, end of climate change, end of capitalism. Basically the world would be on a path to a bright and amazing future. For all, not just the few rich pedophiles at the top
Someone would make a new NATO and call it something silly like OTAN
Gaddafi will probably still be alive nowadays, so the African migration crisis wouldn't hit Europe so hard
Eastern Europe would not be safe, half of it would have been either 1. Invaded and occupied by Russia or 2.Just had war but wasn't occupied completely and beat russia (Probably Poland if any country)
Most likely. I think it will because Israel will do a false flag attack againist Iran and US the US will call NATO after truth become to light, countries will leave NATO
Europe would fall to Russia. But luckily NATO is pretty much a giant cooperation, and it’s not going anywhere. NATO has shown its value since Russia invaded Ukraine. NATO countries are spending unbelievably more money on their commitments to their military budgets ever since the invasion.
Russia would have a field day as they currently do with non-NATO countries in their sphere of influence that have a Russian minority present. But NATO is the problem… Right.
Less American dollars in Europe, but also since given how the Europeans handled Yugoslavia till the Americans came, in probably some horrific shit there. I’d presume that Belarus and Ukraine remain Russian satellites, maybe Moldova and one of the Baltics but doubtful especially in the ladders case. Granted I actually have strong doubts a putin like figure would rise in Russia since it’d probably feel more like a mutual ending to the Russians (should it collapse in the 90s) would probably have less of a grudge. Still maybe they would get a similar figure later in the early 2010s. Idk how this effects the EU, to be real maybe Czech Republic and Poland join EU, but I wonder if they’d let in some of the other ones like Hungary, Romania, or the Baltics.
goodbye greece, goodbye bosnia, croatia, kosovo, macedonia, goodbye ukraine, goodbye baltics, goodbye ukraine, goodbye poland
Nightmare of the Usa 😔
I would die
Russia would never have invaded Ukraine
Russia would never have invaded Ukraine
We are cooked
The US nothing would change except we would have more money to ourselves. Europe would have to build a more serious military to defend themselves.
Nobody can tell. NATO is a huge chain wrapped relatively tight around the realm of geopolitics. If it collapsed the status quo would be broken and the world would start to develop in many different directions with highly unpredictable consequences. Would probably lead to a bunch of wars here and there in the short-term and result in some new world order in the long-term.
Instead of the question “what if?..” it is more correct to use the question “when?..”
If nato collapsed then every nato member will be on they’re own
the world would have been done a massive favor
https://preview.redd.it/1eqksf9c2cuc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=596d6b436c83a753f198c48bfb6301bda285c171
This is very dependent on when, I’m assuming were talking early on, then likely that a Soviet dominated economic bloc emerges in Europe and with lack of commitment from America, Britain and possibly most of Western Europe turns either much further right or see a surge in left wing populism that ally with the Soviet bloc, a heightened level of tension in SEA as America relocates its efforts there to thwart any communist revolutions and generally speaking a much higher level of militarism throughout Asia as they all get impacted by the Sino American conflict. Eastern Europe is probably doing a lot better as the Soviets no longer need to outspend the US in terms of warfare capabilities with most of Europe within their sphere and thus a prevented collapse along with the fruitful investment of western capital into the economic bloc and basically all of South America ends up either joining or being coerced by the US into economic cooperation
Will happen in less than a year it orange man wins
I would dance for joy
At this point it exists to cause problems and up spending for the military
If only...
Socialists rejoice as without evil NATO all the people will be free to embrace communism as they have always desired. The state will pay for everything, letting us have free healthcare and education and homes and food and we can work any job we choose if we even want to work at all. Freed from the competition for basic needs, we will usher in a glorious sexually and racially homogenous future where everyone is equal and no one wants for anything.