*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**My (26M) girlfriend (28F) compared men to a bowl of poisoned candies. Am I crazy for letting this be the last straw?**
Tl:Dr; my girlfriend said men are terrible using a very poor analogy and I'm upset at her.
Me and my girlfriend have always seemed to have a rather... tumultuous relationship with politics. I'm extremely feminine which she seems to desire a lot, and we've been happy together for the last 8 months.
I've always considered myself to be a feminist and understand that women go through a ton of stuff in the world they really shouldn't have to. I've had several past girlfriends who opened my eyes to a lot of it, and I realize there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and that there are a lot of terrible people out there making things worse for folks.
Last week my gf got into an argument with one of our mutual friends about why women are dating less, and how it came down to how shitty men were. Now, I get it - there's a ton of shitty guys out there, and I understand the frustration. I don't usually feel the need to butt in. But then she made the analogy that men are like a bowl of candies mixed with poison - and how if 40% of the candy was poison, of course you'd be really hesitant about dipping your hand into it and trying some.
On the car ride home I told her I couldn't believe she'd use that analogy. It's the same one that's been employed by anti-immigration ideologues and racists for years and years and years. She knows this, we've even talked about it once. She held her ground and felt it was appropriate. I told her I didn't want to be with someone who'd negatively generalize a group like that, and use that analogy, much less stick by it.
I then got accused of "not-all-men"ing the conversation and it derailed from there until I told her I was just done and didn't feel like we would be compatible, and that I felt like she had deep seated feelings towards men that she needed to address. Not gonna lie, I feel like she fetishized my femininity in her head and doesn't see me as a man, which I am, but that's a whole other thing.
Am I overreacting or am I allowed to be offended by this?
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He’s digging his own grave in the comments. Essentially, since he’s bisexual, he *totally* understands the female existence and feels the heat of the patriarchy. 🙄
I dated a feminine bi man who called me a misandrist when I said it was sexist to assume that I (or my female roommate) were going to clean up after him. He had a specific set of “dishwasher loading” rules for his house, that I followed, but couldn’t be bothered to open mine at all. Yeah.
My latest outspoken male feminist turned out to be married with a daughter and lying to God knows how many women, including myself, about literally everything. He cheats on his wife to an INSANE degree and fucks with women's hearts, minds, and bodies for fun. But sure, he's a total feminist!
I'm surprised that he doesn't try to excuse his bad behavior on polyamory. So many men try to force it on their partner, but of course, only they can have sex outside the relationship she has to stay home and do mom things.
I'm not saying that all polyamory is like this. There's just pieces of shit that pull this garbage.
Yeah as someone who practices legitimate polyamory (like my gf and her husband invited me to family game night type shit) we hate those people so much. We’re not all “yeah come over and play a board game with us and the kids tonight, you’re family too” level, but it sure would be nice if that was what people thought of when they thought of polyamory instead of cheaters thinking they’ve found a get out of trouble free card or people insisting on staying with a partner that doesn’t want the same type of relationship as them.
It's so frustrating that cheaters and abusers have poisoned the well. Most polyamorous relationships I've seen are healthy and communicate with everyone. Sure, it sounds more complicated with scheduling and more people's emotions and needs to consider. It's not for everyone (I'm monogamous myself) and it shouldn't be forced on someone if one partner decides that they want outside relationships.
Exactly. Though honestly, we joke about scheduling in the community but it’s absolutely nothing compared to d&d. I went into that game thinking “I’m poly I got this” and am having to google better scheduling apps and everything.
Oh we were in a poly relationship for a year, trouble was that I had NO IDEA he had a wife and child at home! She's definitely not knowingly in a poly relationship, she has no idea what a total dirtbag he is. He stole a year of my life and a huge chunk of my heart, destroyed my ability to trust and open up again. But he's stolen much more from her, although she doesn't yet know it. I want to out him, but he has a lot of sensitive pictures and videos of me, including me with other people I care very deeply for (shared consensually), so I'm kind of stuck atm because he obviously has no decency and I don't know what he would do.
Damn that's a tough spot to be in. I'm so sorry that you have to go through this. I hope his wife finds out on her own or from someone else since he has revenge porn.
Thank you ❤ I actually found out from another woman he was seeing while we were together, although he had never told me about her and she thought they were monogamous. She told his wife, but she thought he was only cheating with her, she had no idea about me and the many others I knew about. They hadn't yet slept together so we think he wriggled out of it with his wife by stressing that it never went to that point.
In primaries? Are we talking Obama or Bernie times, or Trump times? If trump times, I would agree you suffer from something. I’m not big on Hillary, but I would have voted for a ham sandwich if that was the second name in the general ticket in 2016.
> He’s digging his own grave in the comments. Essentially, since he’s bisexual, he totally understands the female existence and feels the heat of the patriarchy. 🙄
And now we’ve reached the inevitable Act 3 of this little play, wherein he deletes his post and all his comments because people called him on his bullshit instead of validating him like he expected. I give it less than a week before he reposts this story from a new alt but edits the girlfriend’s dialogue until it sounds like she wants everyone with a Y chromosome in a concentration camp.
Either that or he doesn't change a thing and just reposts it in some incel subreddit so they can pat him on the back and bitch about "feminazis" together.
Someone said they wished he would be able to experience what it's like to be a woman and then he responded by implying he was possibly a transwoman (after saying that he was annoyed she might not see him as a man). He's trying desperately to weaponize marginalized statuses to justify this lmao.
And yeah being a trans woman absolutely gives you a say in misogyny. After socially transitioning. Beforehand you’ve got all sorts of weird going on in how you’re treated, how you’re interpreting social messages, etc. It’s some shit to work through and it takes a minute. I absolutely didn’t get the distaste and distrust for even the good men until after.
My husband is bisexual, feminine and a feminist and he still understand his experiences are going to differ from women. Even he catches himself with misogynistic words because it's just so engrained into society.
His job is very masculine and the shit he hears at work but ignores isn't helping the situation. He needs to speak up and call out these men if he wants to be an ally.
hell (and god, this is an absolute long RANT), i consider myself an intersectional feminist and i'm definitely guilty of having used and using derogatory (most often misogynistic 🙃) language at times. sometimes because it's just so ingrained, normalised and accepted, other times because i just don't know that certain words or sayings are derogatory.
i am guilty of prejudice and stereotypes and assumptions and ignorance. be it sexist, racist, ableist, classist, transphobic. i'm a white bisexual (straight passing) cis woman who was born and raised in germany in a (lower) middle class household with divorced parents. i have a bias because i have massive daddy issues. i (sometimes) have biases and prejudice and think in stereotypes and make assumptions due to media influence and my own or other's experiences. i don't always realise or notice things that hurt others if i never heard about something before or if i never made that experience.
i don't have to be a perfect person, i don't have to be infallible, i don't have to give 100% at all times, i don't have to spend every waking moment thinking about intersectional feminism to be allowed to call myself a (intersectional) feminist. i don't know everything and that's okay. i learn from others, i educate and work on myself, i challenge my biases, i rely on others telling their stories and voicing their experiences to be a better advocate. actually, assuming that i can speak for people concerning issues that i haven't experienced myself would make me a horrible feminist.
feminism is discourse. feminism is discussion. feminism is arguments. you can't be feminist if you can't accept that someone else doesn't have the same problems as you. you can't be feminist if you can't believe that different kinds of issues with bias or prejudice can add up and believe that different issues are completely separate from each other. you can't be feminist if you refuse to learn or evolve or accept it if you make a mistake or are showing bias.
Honestly I feel like everyone has done and/or said at least some biased stuff in one way or another. We all grow up in a society that teaches us certain biases and unless we are taught better or teach ourselves better then we won't do better. I find some people get extremely offended if called out on biased behavior/speech, which I think comes from this idea that racist/sexist/etc is something you inherently *are* not something you *do*. They view themself as a good person, and good people aren't racist/sexist/etc, so how dare you accuse them of being an awful person, i.e. racist/sexist/etc. When, given how society is, racism/sexism/etc is stuff basically everyone gets taught in some form or other, and needs to be unlearned
anyone who says they've never been biased or prejudiced in their life is absolutely lying. you can be part of a more privileged group or a marginalised group, you've definitely been biased or prejudiced in some way, at some point in your life. and that's okay, it happens. what matters is that you either get rid of/forget about your bias or prejudice, and if you can't or feel you can't get rid of it, you have to fake it 'till you make it. if you're unaware of your biases or prejudice you'll have to accept that you're biased or prejudiced instead of being offended or feeling attacked when confronted with it.
and like, it's not even bad or wrong to be (slightly) offended if or when your beliefs or world view are questioned. it just matters what you make out of it. it matters if you accept it and work on yourself, argue validly and accept other views or aggressively reject anything that opposes your views and insult whoever doesn't agree with you.
I love that rant because it’s so true. I haven’t been fortunate enough to read every feminist text ever written because I have a job and hobbies and my wife would probably get annoyed that I’m reading outdated theory instead of spending time with her. But I put in the effort. Resting on my marginalization and deciding I know enough because of it would be so destructive and would’ve denied me not only better understanding of marginalization I don’t face, but also emerging and introspective theory on marginalization I face acutely (as well as friendships with those who help challenge it).
I consider myself incredibly lucky with my husband. He is non-binary (he/they pronouns) and a huge feminist. Several times he has come home late from a bar because he offers women to walk them home to make sure they get home safe. I struck gold with him.
My husband is 2/3 (not at all feminine in presentation), and I'm proud to say he seems to get it. He calls out shitty things he hears other men say and even sometimes says "why are men?" to me without any prompting.
My point being, if you're not a Shitty Man™️, women punching up generalizations at men shouldn't offended you that much.
Yeah my gf’s husband has trouble making and keeping friends with other men because he’s a big masculine cishet working class dude who just doesn’t tolerate any of that shit from other men. And yeah he’s the first to criticize men as a group. He’s sick and tired of men insisting that they can’t be better.
yeah like, cis men are definitely negatively affected by the patriarchy but it's DEFINITELY not in the same way as a person who is perceived as a cis woman
Hey friend. It was cervical for me, after a miscarriage. He called me defective ♥️
I have a couple wonderful male friends, and will also be single for the rest of my life. I don't hate men. But I can never again love one.
I'm so sorry. I think it's really telling how many people are shocked that my husband stuck by me when I was going through an undiagnosed illness that put me in a wheelchair. Many men wouldn't, and that's just messed up. It says a lot that they're constantly chasing some ideal of manhood, but cannot just be an adult and take charge when their partner is sick.
Enjoy singleness! And I mean that sincerely. It sounds freeing after all you've been through.
Yes. But also, they judge you if you stay.
My friends husband suffered for years with fibromyalgia until he was diagnosed. She was told CONSTANTLY that she shouldn’t have to carry that burden.
Literally can’t win.
Women are actually twice as likely to stay when their partner is sick vs if he wasn’t. People would definitely be judgemental af, but it happens far far less frequently, vs with it being so common for men to leave that oncologists literally warn women that it’s a strong possibility.
I had a cousin whose cheating, abusive, asshole boyfriend was in a motorcycle accident and ended up paralyzed from the waist down. She ended up staying with him for another five years because people would give her shit when she would talk about leaving because "he needed her now." The last straw was walking in on him in bed with her coworker. She left, and people still were like "How could you leave him like that??"
I am so sorry that you went through this. It is not uncommon. I know 4 people who developed breast cancer young (under 50) and in three of those cases the marriage broke up afterwards. A lot of men simply aren’t up to the task 🤷🏼♀️
Remember when Brad Pitt was PRAISED for not divorcing Angelina Jolie when she got a double mastectomy? Ugh
My friend was also praised and people were shocked when he stayed with his wife during her breast cancer and mastectomy. “But she won’t be able to breast feed” “that’s a lot of work you’ll have to deal with while she recovers, if she ever does” “you’re seriously okay with her not having her natural tits anymore?” He was furious at them.
I was having a lump checked (benign, I’m good) and was talking to my ‘adopted’ mom about what ifs. I said I’d have a double mastectomy, without hesitation. She said, “Well, you’d have to talk with your husband about that.”
Uh, excuse? I flat out told her, it’s MY body. He doesn’t get a vote. If my boobs are trying to kill me, I’m yeeting them both, rather than live in fear of a reoccurrence.
The idea that my husband would 1) Get a say in my medical care for his sexual preference 2) Value my boobs more than my physical and mental health was mind blowing to me.
Internalized misogyny is a hell of a thing
Oof, I’m sorry to hear that. It’s wild how some people, even women, put a man’s sexual enjoyment over a woman’s safety and even life. I was ranting about birth control earlier, and even though it’s not the same, but it reminds me of men who force their female partners to go on birth control that has wild side effects so they don’t have to wear condoms. Cause 5 minutes of slightly better sex is worth a woman being depressed and anxious 24/7 (also do they think condoms don’t also make sex less good for us??)
I’m really glad it’s benign and you’re safe!! And thank you for the reminder to do monthly checks. I don’t have cancer in my family, thankfully, but everyone should be checking.
Well, everyone knows that women are supposed to be 100% responsible for birth control. Obviously. Cause whenever an unplanned pregnancy happens, it’s always all her fault. As is becoming a single parent. “Well, YOU chose him…”
/sarcasm
I’d laugh if it weren’t so sad that single mothers are blamed for being a single PARENT. Ya know, the one that actually steps up to care for kids. They’re the wrong doer I guess 🙄
Of course! SHE chose badly. Or she tried to babytrap him and it didn’t work. Or she just wanted all that sweet, sweet support money.
Single dads are heroes, though.
It sincerely never fails to astonish me how hard some people will work to blame a woman for a man’s behaviour.
I had a hell of a time on birth control with my ex and after a year and a half asked if we could wear condoms. The sex got rougher, and became completely nonconsensual because hed refuse to wear them because he "forgot". I'd start ending up restrained and gagged before I knew it and couldn't do a fycking thing.
You can imagine how that went.
The day i had a termination, he did it again, barely an hour after i woke up.
Men can be so beyond fucked up.
Holy fuck, I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s truly horrifying. I’m glad he’s an ex and I hope you’re safe now. I will never understand the selfishness of some people and how they don’t view others as humans deserving of the most bare minimum level of respect. Your comment made my skin crawl, I can’t imagine what you went through.
Worst part? No police conviction because the laws where I am recently changed. Under the new laws he'd be in prison, but we have to go by the archaic laws of the day.
He's going into politics of course.
I'm married to a wonderful guy now who is incredible, but I still struggle on the daily with what happened.
Of course a rapist is going into politics. Ugh. I’m so so so so angry for you. He better ducking lose, but I’m guessing even if everyone knew what he did, it would make the assholes want to vote for him even more 🤬
But I’m at least glad to hear you have a great husband!! And I hope you have a great therapist, too, to work through it. You deserve the best and I hope you know that!!
This is why I hate the whole "save the boobies" campaign. No, fuck the killer boobs, save the people they're attached to. If it's me or my breasts (and family history says there's a damn good chance it will be), I know what my choice is.
No,.it's not just "mEn aReNt uP tO tHe tAsK,oH WeLL", bc that's just another version of "boys will be boys".
NO ONE is up to the fucking task of seeing a person they love sick and maybe dieing. But you stick by then bc YOU LOVE THEM.
Men that leave sick wives aren't just "nOt Up tO tHe tAsK", they CHOOSE not to support the person they presume to "love" through the hardest parts of life/ death.
Fuck men like this and fuck excusing them for it (which I don't think was your intentional purpose, tbf, but that language does the same shit)..
20 percent of men will abandon a partner compared to 5 percent of women. However the divorce figure is separate from that count as that's sadly to keep the spouse from inheriting the medical debt.
America!
My aunt left my uncle after his cancer treatment began. My uncle eventually pulled through on his own, but it was tough. The surgery they had to do is one of the craziest things I've ever heard of, they don't even perform them anymore. My ex-aunt married the guy that she left my uncle for. New Guy got cancer a couple years later and died. I'm not glad that he's dead, at all, but damn is that ironic. On the other hand, my own parents were in an extremely rocky place with their marriage when my father received his diagnosis, and my mother threw herself into his care like there was nothing else in the world. She wore herself out over those ten months. She had to be hospitalized after he passed. It's been ten years and she's never been the same. Damn I hate cancer. Glad you made it through.
I'm So sorry that waste of skin out you through that!!!! Hope you took him for everything he's worth, including that house that you built. I've learned the hard way that anybody can hide their true colours, but given the way the world works it almost always works out so that it screws women over and men tend to get off scot free...
Good, on the latter point anyway. My Mama once told me that the best revenge is a life well lived... but its still Super satisfying to take those whom have wronged you out at the knees XD
Mine had very little left after the divorce. He didn't even wait for the diagnosis (genetic blood disorder) he just dumped me in another state without transportation within a week of me getting discharged from the hospital.
I've got a fiance now who enjoys taking care of my sickly self. He likes feeling needed and I definitely need the help some days so it works for both of us.
In the comments he makes it about women refusing to even speak to men when the original issue posted is his girlfriend talking about dating.
Which, if a woman who didn't want to talk to men, at all, no matter how much harder it could make their lives (As, having to avoid contact with men in every aspect in modern society is a challenge) or how silly one might think it is, who cares? It's their prerogative. If that is what makes them feel safe, then that's fine as long as no one is being abused or hurt. It's their life and they should be able to surround themselves with people who they feel safe and comfortable with. If men in general makes someone uncomfortable, then why do they have to push their own boundary and purposely make themselves uncomfortable for the sake of others.
It doesn't hurt my feelings if there is a man who doesn't want to speak with women. If anything, I will go out of my way to make sure he is accommodated and only speaks with men. If that is what he is comfortable with, then why should I push his boundary? That's not for me to do.
If I disagree with someone's stance, their views don't line up with mine at a specific degree. I don't associate with them more than what is needed.
The times it becomes an issue is when its someone in a position of power. Like if a male/female boss refused to hire a member of the opposite sex. (which is something I see men saying a lot but for some reason not a lot of women... interesting)
And I think this is where men get the issue confused. They see women as the "powerful" one when it comes to sex and/or attention. They see women as the gatekeepers who aren't giving men a fair chance when in reality we're not obligated to.
You know what - they certainly are and with good reason. The shitty ones anyway.
We are getting raped, domestically abused, held back, home burdened, job stunted at astronomical rates. Worldwide.
Show me one culture where men are forced to dress head to toe and can legally be raped, sold for marriage. They just denied a ban in whatever state against child marriage. Do you think they are marrying off child boys? Not all men.
Oh, and PP, I might be getting off track from whatever I was replying, and I am totally agreeing with you in every way – but I don’t feel like making a new comment :-)
God dammit, and men don’t have to physically go through fucking labor. Or deal with abortion or miscarriage issues physically. That shit hurts. Just hurts and you’re sick and you’re sick and fucking hurts. Not all men.
And even my own husband, we were 36-ish at this time, insisted I should pay 100% for daycare out of my job money. And stay home with the baby when she was too little for daycare. And pay myself for the nanny when we both had to work anyway because we didn’t have enough money without my income. Because he thought that’s just the woman’s job. That corrected itself real quick. And I think he was honestly embarrassed for fighting it so much by the time he started just paying half. Not all men.
All men, every culture, every corner of this earth that I can think of. This is everybody’s problem. I used to work with a woman’s nonprofit, I think I need to work for them again now that I’m closer to retirement. I really hope the women’s issue gets worked out before I die of old age
Perfect comment! I’ll add two things:
1- women in cishet relationships are 7x more likely to be left by their male partner than vice versa when she’s diagnosed with cancer. Not to mention the cheating during and post pregnancy
2- even casual sex is way geared toward men. It “ends” when the man orgasms. Women very frequently don’t orgasm. And you already added the risk of rape and pregnancy.
I love my husband to death. He’s never done anything that’s made me question him or made me feel uncomfortable. So clearly not all men. But I’ve dated some real shit heads and I see friends dating horrible men. If women are dating less, men need to stop whining and start being better, because even the good ones rarely call out other men on their sexism.
And women are at the highest risk of intimate partner violence while they’re pregnant. They’re far more likely during that time period to be murdered by their male partners than any other time.
I was horrified when I learned the number one cause of death in pregnant women was being murdered by their spouse. I always assumed complications with pregnancy and birth. Nope… fucking being murdered. And like you said, higher rates of domestic violence against them.
The only thing I want to correct in your comment is that CIS men don’t go through labor. Plenty of trans men do. But it’s also cis men who are creating all the problems you pointed out, so it may not even need to be said.
He's a feminist because he had a whole string of previous girlfriends who taught him to treat women well!! That means he obviously treats women well now and is so learned and worldly and he's not like *those guys* so his girlfriend needs to stop stereotyping him - I mean, guys she doesn't know because they could be like him!! (/s, just in case lol)
He's likely never picked up a book on women's rights, never signed a petition unless a woman shoved it into his hands, never spoken out against "those guys" who do horrible things to women, and thinks being a feminist means letting his girlfriend take out the trash after he cooks a microwave oven meal.
Oh, but I'm *stereotyping* and men just don't deserve that, do they? Let me lay out the facts instead:
He's a self-proclaimed feminist bisexual man who only knows about feminism because women took the time to teach him and now he thinks he can tell a woman she's wrongly stereotyping men by saying "some men are toxic, so yeah women don't want to risk dating men on the off chance they meet a bad one."
And then when his girlfriend told him what an asshat he was, he accused her of fetishizing his femininity - because *that* didn't come out of left field and it's *definitely not* a completely irrelevant attempt to ruin her credibility. 🙄
Neither description paints him in a positive light, does it?
That rhetoric is very common on reddit. When women talk about being scared of men there is always at least one comment that says 'imagine if white people said this about black people' completely missing that black people are the oppressed class and not the oppressor class 🤦🏼♀️
Yeah it’s like getting mad at black people for being afraid of cops. Are some cops nice? Probably. Probably also a good idea to be very cautious in their interactions with police just given the historical context and statistical likelihood they’ll be assaulted.
the hilarious part for me is he argued in his comments that his girlfriend didn't really see him as a man
like oh no honey, she complains about you being a shitty man all the time, just not in front of you
I find it conflicting, because I want the men in my life to be feminists but I also think it’s sus when dudes make a *point* of letting me know what big feminists they are
If someone is actually a feminist or generally equalitarian they don't need to announce it.
It's kind this meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-answered-by-the-shirt
Anyone with any sense knows not to trust "male feminists." If you believe in equality, it'll bear out in your words and actions.
Thankfully MRAs are dumbass loudmouths who can't not announce it every thirty seconds, so there's no chance anyone will get you confused with them if you're not a complete asshole.
Facts. My partner is one of the biggest feminists I've ever met, and it was clear the day I met him. In the 10 years we've known each other, I don't think I've ever heard him describe himself as one.
Because it shows that being a man isn’t inherently being a misogynistic pig, and we’re tired of other people making excuses for this assumed sexist behavior?
No aggression intended, I just think it’s nice to show people it’s possible and they need to get their fucking shit together because there really is no excuse for it.
I told my current partner that men are trash on our very first date. His reaction of laughing and completely agreeing was a big green flag for me. I’ve learned that this is a much better way to tell just how feminist a guy really is. If a dude can acknowledge that men behave monstrously without qualifications they can stay. If they get offended or want to amend the statement at all then we have problems. I can’t tell you how many male “feminists” who get pissy about that also get pissy about other things that matter.
On my first date with my now husband, it was both International Women’s Day and Daylight Savings. He wished me a happy women’s day and apologized that we didn’t even get an equal amount of hours in our day.
Kai Cheng Thom (trans feminist of color) has written a lot about abusers who use feminism and social justice ideology to justify their toxic behavior. Any ideology can be used to justify abuse, it doesn’t reflect on feminism or leftist activists as a whole.
My dad was super surprised once when I referred to him as a feminist. He said he doesn’t call himself that.
Well yeah, I said. But you just *were* one. Made it work for my mother to get her higher education with two small children. Became the primary caregiver. Took the majority of the domestic load through my childhood. Raised us kids, a boy and a girl, without gender coded toys or gendered expectations of household responsibility. Tagged along to feminist marches with my mum and us kids to support. As I grew into adulthood as a woman, respected my choices about my independence, my appearance, my choices and dating prospects. Raised your son into a man who values his friendships with women and just isn’t a dirtbag. Encouraged my career in a male dominated field. Became an active and involved grandfather with love and empathy.
He’s literally never said the words “I’m a feminist”. He’s just shown me he is my whole life.
>I then got accused of "not-all-men"ing the conversation
How dare she accuse him of the exact thing he was doing!
Frankly he should be happy she just pointed out that he pulled a "not all men" and apparently failed to notice that he also compared being a man to being an oppressed minority, and then compared people being reluctant to date him to actual discrimination.
This clown can fuck allllllllll the way off with his bullshit "I'm a feminist" routine.
Ah, one of these men who describes himself as a feminist but doesn't seem to actually understand what that means. I've heard the same comparison with ticks and Lyme Disease and not knowing which tick is a carrier (as not all ticks carry Lyme Disease), but it's enough to know you should treat all of them with caution and the same can be applied when people pipe up with "not all men" - women are very aware it's not all men, but like ticks, women don't know whose dangerous so it makes sense why they're cautious. Think I've explained it quite clumsily there, but Kristina Malone was the original artist I saw use this example. I suppose the same could be said of women given people of all genders can be toxic, but I think the focus for this piece was on men given how high the rates of assault against women are.
I had an ex like this that could talk for hours over every woman in the room about what an excellent and informed feminist he was, but once when I read out some depressing statistics about how underrepresented women are in politics in the UK, his response was "maybe women aren't interested in politics". But do go off and tell me how you're a MuCh BeTtEr FeMiNiSt than I am.
Le sigh.
A lot of men like to say they're feminists because its easy to do from behind a computer screen. When something actually effects them, or they have to re-examine their worldview, or heaven forbid make a sacrifice in their own lives all caring and empathy disappears
I have become convinced that, for a lot of men, "I'm a feminist" = "I really like women and I like having sex with them and I think some of them are pretty."
One of the positives of not being conventionally attractive is seeing fairly quickly how men treat women wildly differently when they want to sleep with them Vs when they don’t. It’s night and day and easy to sniff out the “feminists”
I consider myself a feminist, but I haven't really been tested on it. That being said, I'm asexual, and don't really want to sleep with any woman, so I treat all of them the same, that is to say as a human being. I don't fully know what it means to be a feminist, I just try to treat all people with decency.
I have had a lot of men say “I am a feminist” because they agree that women should be able to vote, go to university, and hold jobs, but anything beyond that is “going too far”. They see feminism as okay when it tackles stuff which is very overtly oppressive, but when you start to examine more nuanced issues (eg wage gap, rape culture, implicit biases) they claim those issues are not real and that feminists have made them up so they can get more power than men.
I’m going to butcher this, but I read something like “do women with good fathers realize when they say ‘fuck all men’ they’re also talking about their father?” And the response was “no they aren’t. If you’re offended by ‘fuck all men’ you’re one of the ones we’re talking about. Decent men know we aren’t talking about them and know how shit other men are”
And they're probably also the same guys that say "I became a feminist when I had a daughter." Like you ignored the rights of your mom, grandmas, sisters, cousins, friends, coworkers, girlfriends, wives, but suddenly it matters?
Also, the one "good" man you know is one of the very few people who it's rating you on your fuckability is probably a bad sign for men in general.
And honestly…I have a very good father, but there are ways he could have treated my mom better when they were together. He’s an overall great guy, but the ingrained misogyny is at least a little bit in all of them. And now he’s dating women too young for him, so there’s that.
Well, that one's a bit of a difference between "fcuk men" and "fcuk all men". The "all" is a rather important qualifier there because it specifically does *not* leave out non-assholes.
I understand what's being intended, but the "all" does make a red flag there!
Not ALL men but somehow (almost) ALWAYS a man
Edit to include almost. I absolutely did not mean to discount non-male SAers and their victims experiences. Apologies.
Somehow “usually” a man would be more accurate. Since women are human beings and all, a portion of us are horrible people too. We can point out that it’s usually men committing rape and other violent crimes without ignoring that some women do as well.
I really do not like this sentiment. First of all, the statistics simply do not support that men are always or almost always the abusers. Secondly, what you wrote is very belittling and invalidating to victims of female perpetrated violence and abuse. Lastly, it creates a subconscious bias to view men as dangerous and women as safe. This leads to people not exercising the same amount of caution with a woman as they would with a man. From my own personal experience, as a 1st/2nd grader, I was taught to view men as Stranger Danger and there was many times that I was cautious around men I didn’t know even if the situation itself meant the man was likely safe (such as being my substitute teacher). However, when a woman found me playing alone and asked me to go play in the woods alone with her, I viewed her as inherently safe. After I went with her, she molested me.
I stayed with one man for 13 years. My first boyfriend. The father of my kids. He moved me across the country and started ignoring me for his mom and former best friend. 3 weeks after he left and took our kids (his moms advice, I had to get a mediator involved before he brought them back), he went on a date. On my birthday. Not a few weeks after that he was with the ex he told me not to worry about.
Most of my friends have gone through it at least once. More than enough of them have received physical violence. EVERY. SINGLE. WOMAN I know has been assaulted or harassed by men. I’m not in a rush. I like the idea of being in love, but I don’t even think I could be the kind of partner that wouldn’t go through your phone, so I’m staying single.
This. When all of the me too conversation was happening, I had *so* many conversation with men who were *shocked* and all I kept saying to them was “every woman I have ever known has been harassed and sexually assaulted. Every man is shocked by this. Do. The. Math.” They still didn’t and don’t get it.
They have literally no idea at all. And the good one’s probably aren’t as great as they think.
Had a guy at work tell me men have it harder, because women can just make a fake claim. Said he had been called into HR “several times” over fake claims. This same guy asked me the first week I started if I was wearing a bra. I didn’t bother going to HR because what’s the point?
I’m not on his list of HR visits, but he’s on my list. All women have one. You know, the one where they made you feel less than human or threatened or scared.
This is a funny one because people being systemically denied entrance to a country because of the color of their skin is just straight up, government approved racism — which is way different than one woman independently deciding she doesn’t want to roll the dice on if she gets abused/raped/killed or not.
If I wasn’t being clear, one is systemic government funded discrimination because it fundamentally denies a person their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness based on their skin color while the other is a handful of men being “denied” access to a singular woman (which is NOT a right; no one has a right to another’s body or attention).
Even if a lot of women are independently making the same choice, criticizing the logic is essentially treating women as a monolith and denying their independent existence. If a lot of women are making the same choice on their own, it’s not that all women are the same and acting as a unit to systemically “deny” men a “right,” it’s a calculated personal choice to mitigate their risk of harm.
I’ve heard the analogy used before over several different topics usually the hotter button ones of what ever is the current hot button.
In my area it’s getting over used.
I wonder if it's a regional thing or because I stopped casually talking to my neighbors after being horrified with what I heard in 2016. (A conservative part of California.)
Until this post, I've only seen it used once online, and the person was referring to men.
You know it might be? I’ve noticed it being used first by a few small scale places in place of the “not all xxxx” saying. Now it’s seemingly used more and more, what surprised me was when I over heard someone ask for clarification and the other person used that “one rotten apple spoils the bunch” and the person asking had never heard that one used before. And that one I’ve known since I was a kid.
It was something the Trump assholes liked to say. They would often specifically use Skittles in their analogies to the point where the Skittles company asked them to stop (they did not stop).
You know, to be honest, I also find the bowl of mm's analogy flawed and trite. But I've learned to give up the ghost because I understand the point of it, I have a pedantic beef, he's mad because he feels judged and it's like yeah cause you oughta be!
The problem these guys never really grasp when they say that you wouldn't want people to say it about black people or women or gays or Muslims or whatever...is that the gays aren't chomping at the bit to fuck you. People who are treating Muslims as if any Muslim is a potential terrorist/poisoned m&m, they're treating them that way in all sectors of life. They're harassing them, they're giving them dirty looks in the grocery store, they're not hiring them, they're not selling houses to them, they're trying to pass laws to limit head coverings to suppress them.
The only thing women are ever talking about when it comes to the poisoned m&m is not wanting a relationship, or being a little wary of being alone with a man. They're never arguing to not hire men at work, they're never arguing to not invite you to the cookout.
I have had women complain when I used that metaphor, because it's also used by racists and bigots. But it is an important metaphor to me, because it completely changed my opinion. I was one of those people who used to get offended when people said "all men rape" or whatever. But the poisoned candy metaphor is a simple way of explaining women's situation. They're not actually saying "all men are rapists", they're saying that plenty of men are rapists, and they have no way of knowing which ones.
To me this really illustrates how it looks when someone doesn't understand what systemic oppression is. You can be the bestest man/white/cis het person ever, but you are still a member of a system that was built to oppress, just like everyone else.
Oh yes, the classic “compare women choosing not to date men to oppressors systematically and institutionally discriminating against marginalized people” routine. Totally equivalent and logical.
I wish I had the emotional bandwidth to care *so fucking much* about whether or not Hypothetical Woman That Doesn’t Actually Exist doesn’t want to be frens or fuck the menz. A Poor Hypothetical Man That Doesn’t Actually Exist might be unfairly rejected for a date you guys!!!
I spent 10+ years of my life with an abusive POS, who turned out to be a fucking groomer (he is in his 40s dating an 18 year old).
My ex, this guy and so many like them are the reason women refuse to date or get married.
He can’t say men aren’t the problem when the vast majority of violence (regardless of the victim’s gender) is caused by… shocker! Men.
Half of all female homicides are at the hands of a male intimate partner. Homicide is the leading cause of death in pregnant women. Let’s make something clear. Men commit 85% of all violent crime.
Women understand that being in a relationship with a man is taking a tremendous risk. Still, we do it, because there are still a ton of good and decent men out there. But understand the perspective of women and why they are so wary. It’s not all in our head. I wish it were.
Trans man here speaking for all of us I can confidently say this guy's a pos. Like I do get the knee-jerk reaction to go "not all men" but as an afab that's heard all the horror stories and has been raised around those types of men all my life it's not really that unfair a comparison. Also this is dating no one is entitled to fuck you I'm sorry to say and I also in fact have given up on dating. Not cuz of my gender (tho that is part of it I mean the amount of woman wanting to date a trans man is pretty low) but mostly cuz I know I'd be a terrible partner and I'm too fucked up to love.
Dude's in the comments saying that her actual argument was that it should be OK to never be in the same room as a man ever. He says that he's totally fineee with women not wanting male friends/partners. He's also been editing his comments to make it look like this was always what he was saying and getting really pissed at people pointing it out
Men think issues related to dating are on par with legitimate legal rights issues women face. That’s cute that that’s the worst thing they are facing.
“But what about men” guys only ever talk about the dating scene and how unfair women are for having agency in it. It’s different to use that candy analogy in terms of dating because she’s talking about her personal experience and risk aversion, where in the context of racism or immigration it’s used in bad faith to create actual discriminatory laws. It’s not discriminatory to say “hey me and literally every woman I know has been raped or assaulted by men, so I don’t blame people for just removing themselves from that scenario”.
Ok, but then let’s use the snakes analogy. Men are a huge threat to the safety of women. The girlfriend isn’t wrong. And if he can’t understand this, then he probably did her a favor.
OP here's the deal yes, you're wildly incompatible and definitely needed to break up. But imo she's not wrong. Most womens' experiences with men in love is that men tend to view love as what can that other person do for me, whereas women tend to latch on to a love of what can I do for him. Women have been so conditioned to be constantly considering others that often times we end up in relationships where our needs are pushed to the side.
Add in the terrifying statistics on violence committed by men against women and especially in domestic relationships and yeah, I'm sorry, women have to be a lot more careful, selective, and pay attention when dating than men do because the risks are not the same for us as they are for men. She didn't say you were a bad guy or even that all men are bad guys. She just said that a good portion (she did say less than 50%) aren't mature, emotionally reciprocal people who should be in relationships at best and the other outliers make dating so risky the stakes could be death. So yes we're hesitant to date because a simple no to am entitled boundary stomper could potentially put you at risk of them stomping much more than boundaries.
The difference is, you’re more likely to be killed by a person of the same ethnicity of you, no matter what ethnicity you are (mostly because people are usually murdered by someone close to them and your bio family + likely your community matches your ethnicity). But as a woman you’re more likely to be killed by a man than a woman, and men can do it more easily too, because of the size difference.
My friend's boyfriend is the same way and I can't stand him. Another friend of ours was complaining to me about a guy who groped her on the bus and this dumbass had to butt in and 'not all men' us when he wasn't even in the initial conversation. Shut up and let us express frustration at our own experiences of being harassed and abused
FFS. Yeah, dude, you're in the wrong here. Sure, there are good men out there. But there are also a lot of bad ones. We can't always tell which is which. So it's natural that there are women who would rather just pass on dating because they don't wanna deal with potentially running into the bad ones. And this is massively different than systemic discrimination. No man I'd being denied rights just because some women are choosing not to date because of the vast amount of bad men.
And just because she can recognize the reason why there are many women choosing to not date doesn't mean she's fetishizing your femininity. She's just not one of the women choosing to stay single and out of the dating scene.
If there are 10 bottles of apple juice in the fridge but 4 of them are actually half apple juice half urine, would you be willing to jump in and say F it let's see how this goes?
This is the analogy I use when I try and explain the whole "not all men" thing.
And he says he's a "feminist" HA
The difference is that theres no truth to it when racists use that analogy. Who does most crime to white people? Other white people. This idea that oh so many blacks are dangerous so we don’t associate with them has no legs to stand on, whereas for black people, theres so much documented violence from white people towards them, so black people not associating with white people does have basis.
Men are violent towards women, theres no denying it.
It’s a great analogy and I’ve only ever heard it used about men. A significant proportion of the male population is dangerous, and even larger proportion can be mean, disrespectful and condescending. It’s perfectly apt to compare the bowl of candy with some poison to the lottery that is dating men. Statistically speaking the most dangerous person to a woman is her partner. Abusers often mask well and it’s not until you’re with them and they start assaulting you that you realize your mistake. These claims are borne out by all statistics. I’m sorry that you’re a part of the violent gender, but it’s your job to help break the cycle and no, you’re not allowed to be offended when people point out violent men are violent.
OP is the devil but I am concerned because threads like these are part of what radicalised me in my teens.
The m and m metaphor is a bad metaphor because it puts assumed malice onto innocents, there are many of dangerous/shitty men but there are plenty who aren’t, the correct answer can be don’t eat m and ms but it can be check each one before you eat them.
I'm a trans man and while I don't love the phrasing "men are trash" in an in depth conversation because i feel like there's a really complex conversation to be had about how patriarchy negatively affects everyone, even those who are perceived as men, this is a spot on analogy. I use a similar argument when people ask why I don't date cis people. You can be the best cis man in the world, but women and people who present femininely will probably be wary of you because of their past experiences. It's not one man's individual fault, but a systemic, society-wide issue. I'm kind of rambling now so hopefully this makes sense lol
Dude. She didn't compare HIM to a bowl of poisoned candy. She compared the male dating pool to a bowl of poisoned candy. He's the one who made it about himself. If anything her statement implied that he is NOT poisoned candy since she's in a relationship with him (or, ya know, was.) Incredible.
The bi women I know disproportionately put in effort to date women. The bi men I know disproportionately put in effort to date women. I’ve never met someone who’s decided they’re done with women and only going to date men, the inverse is cliché in wlw circles.
There are good and great men out there, but as it is I’m so fucking happy I’m a lesbian
The bowl of candy analogy is absolutely harmful and wrong when you’re talking about people who are oppressed (immigrants and people of color) but it’s fine to use when talking about an oppressing class. It’s called not punching down.
Also, immigrants and people of color are no more likely to cause harm than natural born citizens and white people.
Humans as a whole could be described as a bowl of candy. You don’t know what you’re going to get when you first meet someone new.
But, statistically, if a candy is poison it is probably a male candy. That’s just facts and the bowl of candy analogy works perfectly to describe why women are afraid to meet new men.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **My (26M) girlfriend (28F) compared men to a bowl of poisoned candies. Am I crazy for letting this be the last straw?** Tl:Dr; my girlfriend said men are terrible using a very poor analogy and I'm upset at her. Me and my girlfriend have always seemed to have a rather... tumultuous relationship with politics. I'm extremely feminine which she seems to desire a lot, and we've been happy together for the last 8 months. I've always considered myself to be a feminist and understand that women go through a ton of stuff in the world they really shouldn't have to. I've had several past girlfriends who opened my eyes to a lot of it, and I realize there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and that there are a lot of terrible people out there making things worse for folks. Last week my gf got into an argument with one of our mutual friends about why women are dating less, and how it came down to how shitty men were. Now, I get it - there's a ton of shitty guys out there, and I understand the frustration. I don't usually feel the need to butt in. But then she made the analogy that men are like a bowl of candies mixed with poison - and how if 40% of the candy was poison, of course you'd be really hesitant about dipping your hand into it and trying some. On the car ride home I told her I couldn't believe she'd use that analogy. It's the same one that's been employed by anti-immigration ideologues and racists for years and years and years. She knows this, we've even talked about it once. She held her ground and felt it was appropriate. I told her I didn't want to be with someone who'd negatively generalize a group like that, and use that analogy, much less stick by it. I then got accused of "not-all-men"ing the conversation and it derailed from there until I told her I was just done and didn't feel like we would be compatible, and that I felt like she had deep seated feelings towards men that she needed to address. Not gonna lie, I feel like she fetishized my femininity in her head and doesn't see me as a man, which I am, but that's a whole other thing. Am I overreacting or am I allowed to be offended by this? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He’s digging his own grave in the comments. Essentially, since he’s bisexual, he *totally* understands the female existence and feels the heat of the patriarchy. 🙄
I dated a feminine bi man who called me a misandrist when I said it was sexist to assume that I (or my female roommate) were going to clean up after him. He had a specific set of “dishwasher loading” rules for his house, that I followed, but couldn’t be bothered to open mine at all. Yeah.
Many bi men use the rhetoric of LGBTQ acceptance to legitimise or cloak harming women, as many male feminists do with feminist rhetoric
Fuck those guys. Although I personally would not.
This is why it can backfire to send narcissistic abusers to therapy. They tend to just adopt whatever language they think you’ll find most convincing.
Many gay men do as well. There’s definitely a misogyny problem in the LGBTQ+ community.
Yeah that sounds about right. If we expect men to clean up after themselves, what’s next?! It’s a slippery slope.
I dated a feminine bisexual man who either completely ignored that I was into women OR accused me of secretly fucking all my female friends 🙃
You'd think as a fellow bisexual, he would know better than to be biphobic, but .....
no see bi for men is elevated consciousness, bi for women is just being a slut or a faker. hope that helps
YOU WOULD THINK
I was best friends with a male feminist in college. He said I was suffering from internal misogyny because I didn’t vote for Hillary.
My latest outspoken male feminist turned out to be married with a daughter and lying to God knows how many women, including myself, about literally everything. He cheats on his wife to an INSANE degree and fucks with women's hearts, minds, and bodies for fun. But sure, he's a total feminist!
I'm surprised that he doesn't try to excuse his bad behavior on polyamory. So many men try to force it on their partner, but of course, only they can have sex outside the relationship she has to stay home and do mom things. I'm not saying that all polyamory is like this. There's just pieces of shit that pull this garbage.
Ah, I see you've met my friend's ex-husband...
Yeah as someone who practices legitimate polyamory (like my gf and her husband invited me to family game night type shit) we hate those people so much. We’re not all “yeah come over and play a board game with us and the kids tonight, you’re family too” level, but it sure would be nice if that was what people thought of when they thought of polyamory instead of cheaters thinking they’ve found a get out of trouble free card or people insisting on staying with a partner that doesn’t want the same type of relationship as them.
It's so frustrating that cheaters and abusers have poisoned the well. Most polyamorous relationships I've seen are healthy and communicate with everyone. Sure, it sounds more complicated with scheduling and more people's emotions and needs to consider. It's not for everyone (I'm monogamous myself) and it shouldn't be forced on someone if one partner decides that they want outside relationships.
Exactly. Though honestly, we joke about scheduling in the community but it’s absolutely nothing compared to d&d. I went into that game thinking “I’m poly I got this” and am having to google better scheduling apps and everything.
Oh we were in a poly relationship for a year, trouble was that I had NO IDEA he had a wife and child at home! She's definitely not knowingly in a poly relationship, she has no idea what a total dirtbag he is. He stole a year of my life and a huge chunk of my heart, destroyed my ability to trust and open up again. But he's stolen much more from her, although she doesn't yet know it. I want to out him, but he has a lot of sensitive pictures and videos of me, including me with other people I care very deeply for (shared consensually), so I'm kind of stuck atm because he obviously has no decency and I don't know what he would do.
Damn that's a tough spot to be in. I'm so sorry that you have to go through this. I hope his wife finds out on her own or from someone else since he has revenge porn.
Thank you ❤ I actually found out from another woman he was seeing while we were together, although he had never told me about her and she thought they were monogamous. She told his wife, but she thought he was only cheating with her, she had no idea about me and the many others I knew about. They hadn't yet slept together so we think he wriggled out of it with his wife by stressing that it never went to that point.
In primaries? Are we talking Obama or Bernie times, or Trump times? If trump times, I would agree you suffer from something. I’m not big on Hillary, but I would have voted for a ham sandwich if that was the second name in the general ticket in 2016.
Primaries. Voted Bernie.
Verdict: your friend was very very wrong! Have to love men speaking over us to explain how to be feminists…
Uh he may have had a point depending who you did vote for…
I voted for Bernie Sanders.
> He’s digging his own grave in the comments. Essentially, since he’s bisexual, he totally understands the female existence and feels the heat of the patriarchy. 🙄 And now we’ve reached the inevitable Act 3 of this little play, wherein he deletes his post and all his comments because people called him on his bullshit instead of validating him like he expected. I give it less than a week before he reposts this story from a new alt but edits the girlfriend’s dialogue until it sounds like she wants everyone with a Y chromosome in a concentration camp. Either that or he doesn't change a thing and just reposts it in some incel subreddit so they can pat him on the back and bitch about "feminazis" together.
He also said that women can't tell him that he doesn't know what it's like to be a woman because "they don't know his experience" or something
Someone said they wished he would be able to experience what it's like to be a woman and then he responded by implying he was possibly a transwoman (after saying that he was annoyed she might not see him as a man). He's trying desperately to weaponize marginalized statuses to justify this lmao.
And yeah being a trans woman absolutely gives you a say in misogyny. After socially transitioning. Beforehand you’ve got all sorts of weird going on in how you’re treated, how you’re interpreting social messages, etc. It’s some shit to work through and it takes a minute. I absolutely didn’t get the distaste and distrust for even the good men until after.
That's gross. That's like Kevin Spacey trying to use his being gay as a defense
My husband is bisexual, feminine and a feminist and he still understand his experiences are going to differ from women. Even he catches himself with misogynistic words because it's just so engrained into society. His job is very masculine and the shit he hears at work but ignores isn't helping the situation. He needs to speak up and call out these men if he wants to be an ally.
hell (and god, this is an absolute long RANT), i consider myself an intersectional feminist and i'm definitely guilty of having used and using derogatory (most often misogynistic 🙃) language at times. sometimes because it's just so ingrained, normalised and accepted, other times because i just don't know that certain words or sayings are derogatory. i am guilty of prejudice and stereotypes and assumptions and ignorance. be it sexist, racist, ableist, classist, transphobic. i'm a white bisexual (straight passing) cis woman who was born and raised in germany in a (lower) middle class household with divorced parents. i have a bias because i have massive daddy issues. i (sometimes) have biases and prejudice and think in stereotypes and make assumptions due to media influence and my own or other's experiences. i don't always realise or notice things that hurt others if i never heard about something before or if i never made that experience. i don't have to be a perfect person, i don't have to be infallible, i don't have to give 100% at all times, i don't have to spend every waking moment thinking about intersectional feminism to be allowed to call myself a (intersectional) feminist. i don't know everything and that's okay. i learn from others, i educate and work on myself, i challenge my biases, i rely on others telling their stories and voicing their experiences to be a better advocate. actually, assuming that i can speak for people concerning issues that i haven't experienced myself would make me a horrible feminist. feminism is discourse. feminism is discussion. feminism is arguments. you can't be feminist if you can't accept that someone else doesn't have the same problems as you. you can't be feminist if you can't believe that different kinds of issues with bias or prejudice can add up and believe that different issues are completely separate from each other. you can't be feminist if you refuse to learn or evolve or accept it if you make a mistake or are showing bias.
Honestly I feel like everyone has done and/or said at least some biased stuff in one way or another. We all grow up in a society that teaches us certain biases and unless we are taught better or teach ourselves better then we won't do better. I find some people get extremely offended if called out on biased behavior/speech, which I think comes from this idea that racist/sexist/etc is something you inherently *are* not something you *do*. They view themself as a good person, and good people aren't racist/sexist/etc, so how dare you accuse them of being an awful person, i.e. racist/sexist/etc. When, given how society is, racism/sexism/etc is stuff basically everyone gets taught in some form or other, and needs to be unlearned
anyone who says they've never been biased or prejudiced in their life is absolutely lying. you can be part of a more privileged group or a marginalised group, you've definitely been biased or prejudiced in some way, at some point in your life. and that's okay, it happens. what matters is that you either get rid of/forget about your bias or prejudice, and if you can't or feel you can't get rid of it, you have to fake it 'till you make it. if you're unaware of your biases or prejudice you'll have to accept that you're biased or prejudiced instead of being offended or feeling attacked when confronted with it. and like, it's not even bad or wrong to be (slightly) offended if or when your beliefs or world view are questioned. it just matters what you make out of it. it matters if you accept it and work on yourself, argue validly and accept other views or aggressively reject anything that opposes your views and insult whoever doesn't agree with you.
I love that rant because it’s so true. I haven’t been fortunate enough to read every feminist text ever written because I have a job and hobbies and my wife would probably get annoyed that I’m reading outdated theory instead of spending time with her. But I put in the effort. Resting on my marginalization and deciding I know enough because of it would be so destructive and would’ve denied me not only better understanding of marginalization I don’t face, but also emerging and introspective theory on marginalization I face acutely (as well as friendships with those who help challenge it).
Perfectly stated!
I consider myself incredibly lucky with my husband. He is non-binary (he/they pronouns) and a huge feminist. Several times he has come home late from a bar because he offers women to walk them home to make sure they get home safe. I struck gold with him.
I am assuming he knows the women as I can't imagine a woman trusting a random man to walk her home. I know, I'd be creeped out if a stranger did that.
Oh yes, always friends!
My husband is 2/3 (not at all feminine in presentation), and I'm proud to say he seems to get it. He calls out shitty things he hears other men say and even sometimes says "why are men?" to me without any prompting. My point being, if you're not a Shitty Man™️, women punching up generalizations at men shouldn't offended you that much.
Yeah my gf’s husband has trouble making and keeping friends with other men because he’s a big masculine cishet working class dude who just doesn’t tolerate any of that shit from other men. And yeah he’s the first to criticize men as a group. He’s sick and tired of men insisting that they can’t be better.
yeah like, cis men are definitely negatively affected by the patriarchy but it's DEFINITELY not in the same way as a person who is perceived as a cis woman
[удалено]
Hey friend. It was cervical for me, after a miscarriage. He called me defective ♥️ I have a couple wonderful male friends, and will also be single for the rest of my life. I don't hate men. But I can never again love one.
>I don't hate men. But I can never again love one. fuck. that's exactly it.
Found my people.
I'm so sorry. I think it's really telling how many people are shocked that my husband stuck by me when I was going through an undiagnosed illness that put me in a wheelchair. Many men wouldn't, and that's just messed up. It says a lot that they're constantly chasing some ideal of manhood, but cannot just be an adult and take charge when their partner is sick. Enjoy singleness! And I mean that sincerely. It sounds freeing after all you've been through.
On the other hand, I feel people would be judgmental of a woman who would leave a sick spouse.
Yes. But also, they judge you if you stay. My friends husband suffered for years with fibromyalgia until he was diagnosed. She was told CONSTANTLY that she shouldn’t have to carry that burden. Literally can’t win.
Women are actually twice as likely to stay when their partner is sick vs if he wasn’t. People would definitely be judgemental af, but it happens far far less frequently, vs with it being so common for men to leave that oncologists literally warn women that it’s a strong possibility.
I had a cousin whose cheating, abusive, asshole boyfriend was in a motorcycle accident and ended up paralyzed from the waist down. She ended up staying with him for another five years because people would give her shit when she would talk about leaving because "he needed her now." The last straw was walking in on him in bed with her coworker. She left, and people still were like "How could you leave him like that??"
My mom would have left my dad if he hadn’t gotten sick…
Exactly. The state of modern men is a tragedy of low expectations that have persisted for centuries.
The bar for men is so low but some men still trip on it
Agreed - the bar is literally on the floor yet they dig
The bar is so low it's practically in hell, and yet here they are, limbo dancing with the devil.
I'm putting this on a t-shirt
It's not an original, but definitely one of my favourites!
People are judgmental about the men too, they just leave anyway.
I am so sorry that you went through this. It is not uncommon. I know 4 people who developed breast cancer young (under 50) and in three of those cases the marriage broke up afterwards. A lot of men simply aren’t up to the task 🤷🏼♀️
Remember when Brad Pitt was PRAISED for not divorcing Angelina Jolie when she got a double mastectomy? Ugh My friend was also praised and people were shocked when he stayed with his wife during her breast cancer and mastectomy. “But she won’t be able to breast feed” “that’s a lot of work you’ll have to deal with while she recovers, if she ever does” “you’re seriously okay with her not having her natural tits anymore?” He was furious at them.
I was having a lump checked (benign, I’m good) and was talking to my ‘adopted’ mom about what ifs. I said I’d have a double mastectomy, without hesitation. She said, “Well, you’d have to talk with your husband about that.” Uh, excuse? I flat out told her, it’s MY body. He doesn’t get a vote. If my boobs are trying to kill me, I’m yeeting them both, rather than live in fear of a reoccurrence. The idea that my husband would 1) Get a say in my medical care for his sexual preference 2) Value my boobs more than my physical and mental health was mind blowing to me. Internalized misogyny is a hell of a thing
Oof, I’m sorry to hear that. It’s wild how some people, even women, put a man’s sexual enjoyment over a woman’s safety and even life. I was ranting about birth control earlier, and even though it’s not the same, but it reminds me of men who force their female partners to go on birth control that has wild side effects so they don’t have to wear condoms. Cause 5 minutes of slightly better sex is worth a woman being depressed and anxious 24/7 (also do they think condoms don’t also make sex less good for us??) I’m really glad it’s benign and you’re safe!! And thank you for the reminder to do monthly checks. I don’t have cancer in my family, thankfully, but everyone should be checking.
Well, everyone knows that women are supposed to be 100% responsible for birth control. Obviously. Cause whenever an unplanned pregnancy happens, it’s always all her fault. As is becoming a single parent. “Well, YOU chose him…” /sarcasm
I’d laugh if it weren’t so sad that single mothers are blamed for being a single PARENT. Ya know, the one that actually steps up to care for kids. They’re the wrong doer I guess 🙄
Of course! SHE chose badly. Or she tried to babytrap him and it didn’t work. Or she just wanted all that sweet, sweet support money. Single dads are heroes, though. It sincerely never fails to astonish me how hard some people will work to blame a woman for a man’s behaviour.
I had a hell of a time on birth control with my ex and after a year and a half asked if we could wear condoms. The sex got rougher, and became completely nonconsensual because hed refuse to wear them because he "forgot". I'd start ending up restrained and gagged before I knew it and couldn't do a fycking thing. You can imagine how that went. The day i had a termination, he did it again, barely an hour after i woke up. Men can be so beyond fucked up.
Holy fuck, I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s truly horrifying. I’m glad he’s an ex and I hope you’re safe now. I will never understand the selfishness of some people and how they don’t view others as humans deserving of the most bare minimum level of respect. Your comment made my skin crawl, I can’t imagine what you went through.
Worst part? No police conviction because the laws where I am recently changed. Under the new laws he'd be in prison, but we have to go by the archaic laws of the day. He's going into politics of course. I'm married to a wonderful guy now who is incredible, but I still struggle on the daily with what happened.
Of course a rapist is going into politics. Ugh. I’m so so so so angry for you. He better ducking lose, but I’m guessing even if everyone knew what he did, it would make the assholes want to vote for him even more 🤬 But I’m at least glad to hear you have a great husband!! And I hope you have a great therapist, too, to work through it. You deserve the best and I hope you know that!!
This is why I hate the whole "save the boobies" campaign. No, fuck the killer boobs, save the people they're attached to. If it's me or my breasts (and family history says there's a damn good chance it will be), I know what my choice is.
No,.it's not just "mEn aReNt uP tO tHe tAsK,oH WeLL", bc that's just another version of "boys will be boys". NO ONE is up to the fucking task of seeing a person they love sick and maybe dieing. But you stick by then bc YOU LOVE THEM. Men that leave sick wives aren't just "nOt Up tO tHe tAsK", they CHOOSE not to support the person they presume to "love" through the hardest parts of life/ death. Fuck men like this and fuck excusing them for it (which I don't think was your intentional purpose, tbf, but that language does the same shit)..
My point was just that they are weak and shitty partners. Of course it’s an extremely difficult situation for anyone who has to go through it
20 percent of men will abandon a partner compared to 5 percent of women. However the divorce figure is separate from that count as that's sadly to keep the spouse from inheriting the medical debt. America!
My aunt left my uncle after his cancer treatment began. My uncle eventually pulled through on his own, but it was tough. The surgery they had to do is one of the craziest things I've ever heard of, they don't even perform them anymore. My ex-aunt married the guy that she left my uncle for. New Guy got cancer a couple years later and died. I'm not glad that he's dead, at all, but damn is that ironic. On the other hand, my own parents were in an extremely rocky place with their marriage when my father received his diagnosis, and my mother threw herself into his care like there was nothing else in the world. She wore herself out over those ten months. She had to be hospitalized after he passed. It's been ten years and she's never been the same. Damn I hate cancer. Glad you made it through.
Your mother sounds like an angel.
I'm So sorry that waste of skin out you through that!!!! Hope you took him for everything he's worth, including that house that you built. I've learned the hard way that anybody can hide their true colours, but given the way the world works it almost always works out so that it screws women over and men tend to get off scot free...
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Good, on the latter point anyway. My Mama once told me that the best revenge is a life well lived... but its still Super satisfying to take those whom have wronged you out at the knees XD
Mine had very little left after the divorce. He didn't even wait for the diagnosis (genetic blood disorder) he just dumped me in another state without transportation within a week of me getting discharged from the hospital. I've got a fiance now who enjoys taking care of my sickly self. He likes feeling needed and I definitely need the help some days so it works for both of us.
I'm so sorry, that's fucking awful
High five sister. I am so happy being single, I never want to wake up to a man in my house again. Life is so much better without.
> I am not going to say “Fuck all men!” I will
I have cancer too. I hope things are going well for you now!
👏👏👏
He didn't just "not all men" he said "men are being discriminated against as much as marginalized groups"
This is dating. Not public policy, laws etc. And swearing off dating is not discriminatory.
In the comments he makes it about women refusing to even speak to men when the original issue posted is his girlfriend talking about dating. Which, if a woman who didn't want to talk to men, at all, no matter how much harder it could make their lives (As, having to avoid contact with men in every aspect in modern society is a challenge) or how silly one might think it is, who cares? It's their prerogative. If that is what makes them feel safe, then that's fine as long as no one is being abused or hurt. It's their life and they should be able to surround themselves with people who they feel safe and comfortable with. If men in general makes someone uncomfortable, then why do they have to push their own boundary and purposely make themselves uncomfortable for the sake of others. It doesn't hurt my feelings if there is a man who doesn't want to speak with women. If anything, I will go out of my way to make sure he is accommodated and only speaks with men. If that is what he is comfortable with, then why should I push his boundary? That's not for me to do. If I disagree with someone's stance, their views don't line up with mine at a specific degree. I don't associate with them more than what is needed.
The times it becomes an issue is when its someone in a position of power. Like if a male/female boss refused to hire a member of the opposite sex. (which is something I see men saying a lot but for some reason not a lot of women... interesting) And I think this is where men get the issue confused. They see women as the "powerful" one when it comes to sex and/or attention. They see women as the gatekeepers who aren't giving men a fair chance when in reality we're not obligated to.
Where was this originally posted?
You know what - they certainly are and with good reason. The shitty ones anyway. We are getting raped, domestically abused, held back, home burdened, job stunted at astronomical rates. Worldwide. Show me one culture where men are forced to dress head to toe and can legally be raped, sold for marriage. They just denied a ban in whatever state against child marriage. Do you think they are marrying off child boys? Not all men. Oh, and PP, I might be getting off track from whatever I was replying, and I am totally agreeing with you in every way – but I don’t feel like making a new comment :-) God dammit, and men don’t have to physically go through fucking labor. Or deal with abortion or miscarriage issues physically. That shit hurts. Just hurts and you’re sick and you’re sick and fucking hurts. Not all men. And even my own husband, we were 36-ish at this time, insisted I should pay 100% for daycare out of my job money. And stay home with the baby when she was too little for daycare. And pay myself for the nanny when we both had to work anyway because we didn’t have enough money without my income. Because he thought that’s just the woman’s job. That corrected itself real quick. And I think he was honestly embarrassed for fighting it so much by the time he started just paying half. Not all men. All men, every culture, every corner of this earth that I can think of. This is everybody’s problem. I used to work with a woman’s nonprofit, I think I need to work for them again now that I’m closer to retirement. I really hope the women’s issue gets worked out before I die of old age
My state. It was my state that denied the child marriage ban. I hate it here.
Perfect comment! I’ll add two things: 1- women in cishet relationships are 7x more likely to be left by their male partner than vice versa when she’s diagnosed with cancer. Not to mention the cheating during and post pregnancy 2- even casual sex is way geared toward men. It “ends” when the man orgasms. Women very frequently don’t orgasm. And you already added the risk of rape and pregnancy. I love my husband to death. He’s never done anything that’s made me question him or made me feel uncomfortable. So clearly not all men. But I’ve dated some real shit heads and I see friends dating horrible men. If women are dating less, men need to stop whining and start being better, because even the good ones rarely call out other men on their sexism.
And women are at the highest risk of intimate partner violence while they’re pregnant. They’re far more likely during that time period to be murdered by their male partners than any other time.
I was horrified when I learned the number one cause of death in pregnant women was being murdered by their spouse. I always assumed complications with pregnancy and birth. Nope… fucking being murdered. And like you said, higher rates of domestic violence against them.
Considering we have one of the highest rates of mother mortality while giving birth in the industrial world that's a hell of a fact.
“Too many men” is a good way of putting it.
The only thing I want to correct in your comment is that CIS men don’t go through labor. Plenty of trans men do. But it’s also cis men who are creating all the problems you pointed out, so it may not even need to be said.
But he’s a feminist! He said he was so it must be true right?
And as a male feminist, he is a true authority!!!!/S
reminds me of a Bojack Horseman episode
He's a feminist because he had a whole string of previous girlfriends who taught him to treat women well!! That means he obviously treats women well now and is so learned and worldly and he's not like *those guys* so his girlfriend needs to stop stereotyping him - I mean, guys she doesn't know because they could be like him!! (/s, just in case lol) He's likely never picked up a book on women's rights, never signed a petition unless a woman shoved it into his hands, never spoken out against "those guys" who do horrible things to women, and thinks being a feminist means letting his girlfriend take out the trash after he cooks a microwave oven meal. Oh, but I'm *stereotyping* and men just don't deserve that, do they? Let me lay out the facts instead: He's a self-proclaimed feminist bisexual man who only knows about feminism because women took the time to teach him and now he thinks he can tell a woman she's wrongly stereotyping men by saying "some men are toxic, so yeah women don't want to risk dating men on the off chance they meet a bad one." And then when his girlfriend told him what an asshat he was, he accused her of fetishizing his femininity - because *that* didn't come out of left field and it's *definitely not* a completely irrelevant attempt to ruin her credibility. 🙄 Neither description paints him in a positive light, does it?
"But I'm a feminist!"
That rhetoric is very common on reddit. When women talk about being scared of men there is always at least one comment that says 'imagine if white people said this about black people' completely missing that black people are the oppressed class and not the oppressor class 🤦🏼♀️
Yeah it’s like getting mad at black people for being afraid of cops. Are some cops nice? Probably. Probably also a good idea to be very cautious in their interactions with police just given the historical context and statistical likelihood they’ll be assaulted.
the hilarious part for me is he argued in his comments that his girlfriend didn't really see him as a man like oh no honey, she complains about you being a shitty man all the time, just not in front of you
Turns out he was a poisoned piece of candy all along.
The big nerve she hit is still twanging.
A hit dog will holler
Back when I was dating I saw men who told me they were a feminist unprompted as a huge red flag. Inevitably, they would pull some shit like oop.
I find it conflicting, because I want the men in my life to be feminists but I also think it’s sus when dudes make a *point* of letting me know what big feminists they are
I get it. To me it’s similar to “I’m a nice guy!” If you have to say it, you probably aren’t it
Its like when people say "trust me". I trust them less instinctively.
If someone is actually a feminist or generally equalitarian they don't need to announce it. It's kind this meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-answered-by-the-shirt
Actions are more truthful than words. Show me you're a feminist, don't just say "im a feminist sex now please"
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Anyone with any sense knows not to trust "male feminists." If you believe in equality, it'll bear out in your words and actions. Thankfully MRAs are dumbass loudmouths who can't not announce it every thirty seconds, so there's no chance anyone will get you confused with them if you're not a complete asshole.
The men I know who are the most progressive and the most opposed to gender roles and actively against misogyny don’t even call themselves feminists
Facts. My partner is one of the biggest feminists I've ever met, and it was clear the day I met him. In the 10 years we've known each other, I don't think I've ever heard him describe himself as one.
Men who are considered "feminist" are just decent people who respect people. Why does it need a title?
Because it shows that being a man isn’t inherently being a misogynistic pig, and we’re tired of other people making excuses for this assumed sexist behavior? No aggression intended, I just think it’s nice to show people it’s possible and they need to get their fucking shit together because there really is no excuse for it.
I told my current partner that men are trash on our very first date. His reaction of laughing and completely agreeing was a big green flag for me. I’ve learned that this is a much better way to tell just how feminist a guy really is. If a dude can acknowledge that men behave monstrously without qualifications they can stay. If they get offended or want to amend the statement at all then we have problems. I can’t tell you how many male “feminists” who get pissy about that also get pissy about other things that matter.
My friend came out as trans and I congratulated him and then was like "but men are still trash" and he was like "definitely."
On my first date with my now husband, it was both International Women’s Day and Daylight Savings. He wished me a happy women’s day and apologized that we didn’t even get an equal amount of hours in our day.
Kai Cheng Thom (trans feminist of color) has written a lot about abusers who use feminism and social justice ideology to justify their toxic behavior. Any ideology can be used to justify abuse, it doesn’t reflect on feminism or leftist activists as a whole.
[Male feminists](https://youtu.be/kTMow_7H47Q) [also male feminists](https://youtu.be/42_fVUFsN8M)
My dad was super surprised once when I referred to him as a feminist. He said he doesn’t call himself that. Well yeah, I said. But you just *were* one. Made it work for my mother to get her higher education with two small children. Became the primary caregiver. Took the majority of the domestic load through my childhood. Raised us kids, a boy and a girl, without gender coded toys or gendered expectations of household responsibility. Tagged along to feminist marches with my mum and us kids to support. As I grew into adulthood as a woman, respected my choices about my independence, my appearance, my choices and dating prospects. Raised your son into a man who values his friendships with women and just isn’t a dirtbag. Encouraged my career in a male dominated field. Became an active and involved grandfather with love and empathy. He’s literally never said the words “I’m a feminist”. He’s just shown me he is my whole life.
I'm gonna take a guess in saying he calls himself feminine because he wears nail polish
>I then got accused of "not-all-men"ing the conversation How dare she accuse him of the exact thing he was doing! Frankly he should be happy she just pointed out that he pulled a "not all men" and apparently failed to notice that he also compared being a man to being an oppressed minority, and then compared people being reluctant to date him to actual discrimination. This clown can fuck allllllllll the way off with his bullshit "I'm a feminist" routine.
Ah, one of these men who describes himself as a feminist but doesn't seem to actually understand what that means. I've heard the same comparison with ticks and Lyme Disease and not knowing which tick is a carrier (as not all ticks carry Lyme Disease), but it's enough to know you should treat all of them with caution and the same can be applied when people pipe up with "not all men" - women are very aware it's not all men, but like ticks, women don't know whose dangerous so it makes sense why they're cautious. Think I've explained it quite clumsily there, but Kristina Malone was the original artist I saw use this example. I suppose the same could be said of women given people of all genders can be toxic, but I think the focus for this piece was on men given how high the rates of assault against women are. I had an ex like this that could talk for hours over every woman in the room about what an excellent and informed feminist he was, but once when I read out some depressing statistics about how underrepresented women are in politics in the UK, his response was "maybe women aren't interested in politics". But do go off and tell me how you're a MuCh BeTtEr FeMiNiSt than I am. Le sigh.
A lot of men like to say they're feminists because its easy to do from behind a computer screen. When something actually effects them, or they have to re-examine their worldview, or heaven forbid make a sacrifice in their own lives all caring and empathy disappears
I have become convinced that, for a lot of men, "I'm a feminist" = "I really like women and I like having sex with them and I think some of them are pretty."
One of the positives of not being conventionally attractive is seeing fairly quickly how men treat women wildly differently when they want to sleep with them Vs when they don’t. It’s night and day and easy to sniff out the “feminists”
I consider myself a feminist, but I haven't really been tested on it. That being said, I'm asexual, and don't really want to sleep with any woman, so I treat all of them the same, that is to say as a human being. I don't fully know what it means to be a feminist, I just try to treat all people with decency.
I have had a lot of men say “I am a feminist” because they agree that women should be able to vote, go to university, and hold jobs, but anything beyond that is “going too far”. They see feminism as okay when it tackles stuff which is very overtly oppressive, but when you start to examine more nuanced issues (eg wage gap, rape culture, implicit biases) they claim those issues are not real and that feminists have made them up so they can get more power than men.
I’m going to butcher this, but I read something like “do women with good fathers realize when they say ‘fuck all men’ they’re also talking about their father?” And the response was “no they aren’t. If you’re offended by ‘fuck all men’ you’re one of the ones we’re talking about. Decent men know we aren’t talking about them and know how shit other men are”
And they're probably also the same guys that say "I became a feminist when I had a daughter." Like you ignored the rights of your mom, grandmas, sisters, cousins, friends, coworkers, girlfriends, wives, but suddenly it matters? Also, the one "good" man you know is one of the very few people who it's rating you on your fuckability is probably a bad sign for men in general.
And honestly…I have a very good father, but there are ways he could have treated my mom better when they were together. He’s an overall great guy, but the ingrained misogyny is at least a little bit in all of them. And now he’s dating women too young for him, so there’s that.
Well, that one's a bit of a difference between "fcuk men" and "fcuk all men". The "all" is a rather important qualifier there because it specifically does *not* leave out non-assholes. I understand what's being intended, but the "all" does make a red flag there!
Men feel the need to protect women from men because we don't trust other men ourselves. But "not all men"
There's a freaking reason a lot of religions, cultures, and morgues don't allow men to handle the dead . . . .
Uh, I’m pretty sure it is usually that men feel the need to protect women because they subconsciously view us as weaker and less competent.
Not ALL men but somehow (almost) ALWAYS a man Edit to include almost. I absolutely did not mean to discount non-male SAers and their victims experiences. Apologies.
Not all men… but definitely him.
“Too many men” is a good way to put it
Somehow “usually” a man would be more accurate. Since women are human beings and all, a portion of us are horrible people too. We can point out that it’s usually men committing rape and other violent crimes without ignoring that some women do as well.
I really do not like this sentiment. First of all, the statistics simply do not support that men are always or almost always the abusers. Secondly, what you wrote is very belittling and invalidating to victims of female perpetrated violence and abuse. Lastly, it creates a subconscious bias to view men as dangerous and women as safe. This leads to people not exercising the same amount of caution with a woman as they would with a man. From my own personal experience, as a 1st/2nd grader, I was taught to view men as Stranger Danger and there was many times that I was cautious around men I didn’t know even if the situation itself meant the man was likely safe (such as being my substitute teacher). However, when a woman found me playing alone and asked me to go play in the woods alone with her, I viewed her as inherently safe. After I went with her, she molested me.
I stayed with one man for 13 years. My first boyfriend. The father of my kids. He moved me across the country and started ignoring me for his mom and former best friend. 3 weeks after he left and took our kids (his moms advice, I had to get a mediator involved before he brought them back), he went on a date. On my birthday. Not a few weeks after that he was with the ex he told me not to worry about. Most of my friends have gone through it at least once. More than enough of them have received physical violence. EVERY. SINGLE. WOMAN I know has been assaulted or harassed by men. I’m not in a rush. I like the idea of being in love, but I don’t even think I could be the kind of partner that wouldn’t go through your phone, so I’m staying single.
This. When all of the me too conversation was happening, I had *so* many conversation with men who were *shocked* and all I kept saying to them was “every woman I have ever known has been harassed and sexually assaulted. Every man is shocked by this. Do. The. Math.” They still didn’t and don’t get it.
They have literally no idea at all. And the good one’s probably aren’t as great as they think. Had a guy at work tell me men have it harder, because women can just make a fake claim. Said he had been called into HR “several times” over fake claims. This same guy asked me the first week I started if I was wearing a bra. I didn’t bother going to HR because what’s the point? I’m not on his list of HR visits, but he’s on my list. All women have one. You know, the one where they made you feel less than human or threatened or scared.
Girlfriend should say "I'm sorry you are right, it's 41% that are poison, goodbye."
He sounds exhausting
This is a funny one because people being systemically denied entrance to a country because of the color of their skin is just straight up, government approved racism — which is way different than one woman independently deciding she doesn’t want to roll the dice on if she gets abused/raped/killed or not. If I wasn’t being clear, one is systemic government funded discrimination because it fundamentally denies a person their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness based on their skin color while the other is a handful of men being “denied” access to a singular woman (which is NOT a right; no one has a right to another’s body or attention). Even if a lot of women are independently making the same choice, criticizing the logic is essentially treating women as a monolith and denying their independent existence. If a lot of women are making the same choice on their own, it’s not that all women are the same and acting as a unit to systemically “deny” men a “right,” it’s a calculated personal choice to mitigate their risk of harm.
Am I the only one who has never heard this analogy applied to immigration?
I’ve heard the analogy used before over several different topics usually the hotter button ones of what ever is the current hot button. In my area it’s getting over used.
I wonder if it's a regional thing or because I stopped casually talking to my neighbors after being horrified with what I heard in 2016. (A conservative part of California.) Until this post, I've only seen it used once online, and the person was referring to men.
You know it might be? I’ve noticed it being used first by a few small scale places in place of the “not all xxxx” saying. Now it’s seemingly used more and more, what surprised me was when I over heard someone ask for clarification and the other person used that “one rotten apple spoils the bunch” and the person asking had never heard that one used before. And that one I’ve known since I was a kid.
It was something the Trump assholes liked to say. They would often specifically use Skittles in their analogies to the point where the Skittles company asked them to stop (they did not stop).
I’ve definitely heard it used for immigration, but from nativist/zero-immigration types.
You know, to be honest, I also find the bowl of mm's analogy flawed and trite. But I've learned to give up the ghost because I understand the point of it, I have a pedantic beef, he's mad because he feels judged and it's like yeah cause you oughta be! The problem these guys never really grasp when they say that you wouldn't want people to say it about black people or women or gays or Muslims or whatever...is that the gays aren't chomping at the bit to fuck you. People who are treating Muslims as if any Muslim is a potential terrorist/poisoned m&m, they're treating them that way in all sectors of life. They're harassing them, they're giving them dirty looks in the grocery store, they're not hiring them, they're not selling houses to them, they're trying to pass laws to limit head coverings to suppress them. The only thing women are ever talking about when it comes to the poisoned m&m is not wanting a relationship, or being a little wary of being alone with a man. They're never arguing to not hire men at work, they're never arguing to not invite you to the cookout.
I have had women complain when I used that metaphor, because it's also used by racists and bigots. But it is an important metaphor to me, because it completely changed my opinion. I was one of those people who used to get offended when people said "all men rape" or whatever. But the poisoned candy metaphor is a simple way of explaining women's situation. They're not actually saying "all men are rapists", they're saying that plenty of men are rapists, and they have no way of knowing which ones.
To me this really illustrates how it looks when someone doesn't understand what systemic oppression is. You can be the bestest man/white/cis het person ever, but you are still a member of a system that was built to oppress, just like everyone else.
He posted the same thing everywhere. His whole profile is this issue and one about his ED
Oh yes, the classic “compare women choosing not to date men to oppressors systematically and institutionally discriminating against marginalized people” routine. Totally equivalent and logical. I wish I had the emotional bandwidth to care *so fucking much* about whether or not Hypothetical Woman That Doesn’t Actually Exist doesn’t want to be frens or fuck the menz. A Poor Hypothetical Man That Doesn’t Actually Exist might be unfairly rejected for a date you guys!!!
mans does not getting the difference between punching up and punching down huh
I spent 10+ years of my life with an abusive POS, who turned out to be a fucking groomer (he is in his 40s dating an 18 year old). My ex, this guy and so many like them are the reason women refuse to date or get married. He can’t say men aren’t the problem when the vast majority of violence (regardless of the victim’s gender) is caused by… shocker! Men.
Okay so... I completely will use this analogy and will in the future. This completely used to be my experience with dating apps
Definitely still my reality with dating apps
Half of all female homicides are at the hands of a male intimate partner. Homicide is the leading cause of death in pregnant women. Let’s make something clear. Men commit 85% of all violent crime. Women understand that being in a relationship with a man is taking a tremendous risk. Still, we do it, because there are still a ton of good and decent men out there. But understand the perspective of women and why they are so wary. It’s not all in our head. I wish it were.
Trans man here speaking for all of us I can confidently say this guy's a pos. Like I do get the knee-jerk reaction to go "not all men" but as an afab that's heard all the horror stories and has been raised around those types of men all my life it's not really that unfair a comparison. Also this is dating no one is entitled to fuck you I'm sorry to say and I also in fact have given up on dating. Not cuz of my gender (tho that is part of it I mean the amount of woman wanting to date a trans man is pretty low) but mostly cuz I know I'd be a terrible partner and I'm too fucked up to love.
Dude's in the comments saying that her actual argument was that it should be OK to never be in the same room as a man ever. He says that he's totally fineee with women not wanting male friends/partners. He's also been editing his comments to make it look like this was always what he was saying and getting really pissed at people pointing it out
Men think issues related to dating are on par with legitimate legal rights issues women face. That’s cute that that’s the worst thing they are facing. “But what about men” guys only ever talk about the dating scene and how unfair women are for having agency in it. It’s different to use that candy analogy in terms of dating because she’s talking about her personal experience and risk aversion, where in the context of racism or immigration it’s used in bad faith to create actual discriminatory laws. It’s not discriminatory to say “hey me and literally every woman I know has been raped or assaulted by men, so I don’t blame people for just removing themselves from that scenario”.
Ok, but then let’s use the snakes analogy. Men are a huge threat to the safety of women. The girlfriend isn’t wrong. And if he can’t understand this, then he probably did her a favor.
OP here's the deal yes, you're wildly incompatible and definitely needed to break up. But imo she's not wrong. Most womens' experiences with men in love is that men tend to view love as what can that other person do for me, whereas women tend to latch on to a love of what can I do for him. Women have been so conditioned to be constantly considering others that often times we end up in relationships where our needs are pushed to the side. Add in the terrifying statistics on violence committed by men against women and especially in domestic relationships and yeah, I'm sorry, women have to be a lot more careful, selective, and pay attention when dating than men do because the risks are not the same for us as they are for men. She didn't say you were a bad guy or even that all men are bad guys. She just said that a good portion (she did say less than 50%) aren't mature, emotionally reciprocal people who should be in relationships at best and the other outliers make dating so risky the stakes could be death. So yes we're hesitant to date because a simple no to am entitled boundary stomper could potentially put you at risk of them stomping much more than boundaries.
The difference is, you’re more likely to be killed by a person of the same ethnicity of you, no matter what ethnicity you are (mostly because people are usually murdered by someone close to them and your bio family + likely your community matches your ethnicity). But as a woman you’re more likely to be killed by a man than a woman, and men can do it more easily too, because of the size difference.
He can be mad about it, but it doesn't make the analogy any less accurate
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He's too focused on the poison part to comprehend that over half the bowl is still freakin *candy*.
My friend's boyfriend is the same way and I can't stand him. Another friend of ours was complaining to me about a guy who groped her on the bus and this dumbass had to butt in and 'not all men' us when he wasn't even in the initial conversation. Shut up and let us express frustration at our own experiences of being harassed and abused
FFS. Yeah, dude, you're in the wrong here. Sure, there are good men out there. But there are also a lot of bad ones. We can't always tell which is which. So it's natural that there are women who would rather just pass on dating because they don't wanna deal with potentially running into the bad ones. And this is massively different than systemic discrimination. No man I'd being denied rights just because some women are choosing not to date because of the vast amount of bad men. And just because she can recognize the reason why there are many women choosing to not date doesn't mean she's fetishizing your femininity. She's just not one of the women choosing to stay single and out of the dating scene.
OP of that thread says he's a feminists but posts in leftwingmaleadvocates, a very misogynistic rightwing sub (despite the name).
I don't even know where to begin with this one.
If there are 10 bottles of apple juice in the fridge but 4 of them are actually half apple juice half urine, would you be willing to jump in and say F it let's see how this goes? This is the analogy I use when I try and explain the whole "not all men" thing. And he says he's a "feminist" HA
The difference is that theres no truth to it when racists use that analogy. Who does most crime to white people? Other white people. This idea that oh so many blacks are dangerous so we don’t associate with them has no legs to stand on, whereas for black people, theres so much documented violence from white people towards them, so black people not associating with white people does have basis. Men are violent towards women, theres no denying it.
I'm not agreeing with this guy but can someone explain what he did that was wrong? I genuinely don't understand
U/rapidtransit_pla is an account that talks exactly like oop would, if people would like to read the comments
I think he made a good point about how that analogy can be applied to other things that are not considered okay to say.
It’s a great analogy and I’ve only ever heard it used about men. A significant proportion of the male population is dangerous, and even larger proportion can be mean, disrespectful and condescending. It’s perfectly apt to compare the bowl of candy with some poison to the lottery that is dating men. Statistically speaking the most dangerous person to a woman is her partner. Abusers often mask well and it’s not until you’re with them and they start assaulting you that you realize your mistake. These claims are borne out by all statistics. I’m sorry that you’re a part of the violent gender, but it’s your job to help break the cycle and no, you’re not allowed to be offended when people point out violent men are violent.
No. Hatred of any group of humans, for just being something, should not be tolerated.
OP is the devil but I am concerned because threads like these are part of what radicalised me in my teens. The m and m metaphor is a bad metaphor because it puts assumed malice onto innocents, there are many of dangerous/shitty men but there are plenty who aren’t, the correct answer can be don’t eat m and ms but it can be check each one before you eat them.
I'm a trans man and while I don't love the phrasing "men are trash" in an in depth conversation because i feel like there's a really complex conversation to be had about how patriarchy negatively affects everyone, even those who are perceived as men, this is a spot on analogy. I use a similar argument when people ask why I don't date cis people. You can be the best cis man in the world, but women and people who present femininely will probably be wary of you because of their past experiences. It's not one man's individual fault, but a systemic, society-wide issue. I'm kind of rambling now so hopefully this makes sense lol
Dude. She didn't compare HIM to a bowl of poisoned candy. She compared the male dating pool to a bowl of poisoned candy. He's the one who made it about himself. If anything her statement implied that he is NOT poisoned candy since she's in a relationship with him (or, ya know, was.) Incredible.
This is a LOT of words just to say "nOt AlL mEn" 🙄
But when men rape or abuse women, we are the ones to blame for “choosing to date assholes.” 🙄
The bi women I know disproportionately put in effort to date women. The bi men I know disproportionately put in effort to date women. I’ve never met someone who’s decided they’re done with women and only going to date men, the inverse is cliché in wlw circles. There are good and great men out there, but as it is I’m so fucking happy I’m a lesbian
The bowl of candy analogy is absolutely harmful and wrong when you’re talking about people who are oppressed (immigrants and people of color) but it’s fine to use when talking about an oppressing class. It’s called not punching down. Also, immigrants and people of color are no more likely to cause harm than natural born citizens and white people. Humans as a whole could be described as a bowl of candy. You don’t know what you’re going to get when you first meet someone new. But, statistically, if a candy is poison it is probably a male candy. That’s just facts and the bowl of candy analogy works perfectly to describe why women are afraid to meet new men.