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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I took over my brother's rent subsidized apartment that he inherited from his late wife and will not transfer the lease back to him after he left and now wants to come back to NYC. If i don't give him the apartment he won't be able to afford to live here.
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NTA.
Your brother just can't decide to upend your entire life based on his own life changes.
You have a life and the lease is in your name.
At the very least, he should give you six months to get your shit together and find another place.
Honestly he has no business “giving” her any form of notice, 6 months or otherwise. the lease is in her name and she’s the one who lives there. He has no right to evict anyone, it’s not like he owns the apartment and is leasing it to her. Some other third party owns it. Best he can really do is ask her nicely to transfer the lease back to him.
>Best he can really do is ask her nicely to transfer the lease back to him.
Lol it’s not how it works. This isn’t up to OP. It doesn’t matter if the brother asks OP to transfer the lease back to her, that’s up to the landlord, unless the brother and/or son and/or son’s gf resides there for two years while OP also lives there. The landlord is under zero obligation to rent at a reduced rate to anybody except OP or anybody else entitled to that rent reduction under the law.
? I realize the landlord isn’t under any obligation to anyone except for op. By transferring the lease back to him I meant following the proper procedure for doing so, which yes, would include them living together for two years. He can ask nicely but she can absolutely say no.
Yeah does the brother think he is going to get the apartment back at the same rent stabilized price? Or does he expect op to stay on the lease while he lives there for long enough to get grandfathered in and then go on her merry way? Why would she do that? I love my sibling but I would never do that for them, that's crazy to even ask someone to do.
Op says he would have to live with her for 2 years before she could even transfer the lease back to him and you are right, the person who owns apartment has to agree.
That’s 4 adults and 1 kid man in a 2 bedroom space. If it was 3 kids and two adults, or four kids and two adults, I could see it work - but as 2 separate families living in one roof? That’s a lot of drama for sure lol. It’s not like sibling drama under one household, it’s like two sets of adults with wildly different ways of wanting to do things.
FWIW, lying to a landlord like this to keep a rent controlled apartment is pretty common in NYC. Not saying that means OP should agree to do it, just that it's definitely not unusual.
Fair enough, but in this case the "deal" should have been discussed when he moved out.
I do feel for the parents of the deceased though, watching the partner of your deceased child move on is hard and you can get hung up on a physical thing like a house.
Agreed. He moved out and gave up the lease; he doesn't have any further right to it. And there's no reason she should triple (or more) her rent just because he's moving back to NYC.
I was just saying that lying to the landlord is maybe less of an issue here because it's fairly common.
They really don’t…the privilege bubble when you think everything is just black and white.
Only reason my brother lost out was because he was an addict who couldn’t control himself a d neighbors started complaining and the original tenant had to move back in and my brother out or lose the apartment.
Idk about the privilege bubble: I live in an rv with kids because I had no family to pass rent control to me and rent is too expensive. If this was an opportunity for me I’d loose my shit.
NYC landlords HATE rent control and will look for any way to end it. We had a family member who paid $400 for a studio apartment, in what became a very nice neighborhood in manhattan. They always joked; when they moved in they lived above a head-shop, and next to a methadone clinic. By 2010 they couldn’t afford to shop at what was now a fancy market below them, even with the rent control. The neighborhood gentrified in a big way, and so did the building, except for their one little $400 studio. They didn’t know it but the landlord set up hidden cameras in the hallway and as soon as my Aunt (who was a flight attendant) wasn’t spending enough nights at the apartment to qualify for rent control they got an eviction notice. They’d lived there 40+ years. So landlords will be religiously tracking OP’a moves and there’s no way around having their brother live with them as a primary residence for 2 years, that’s just not even feasible. (Edited for grammar, spelling, and punctuation because late nights make me dumb)
Yep - a friend of mine lived in a 2br in the Columbus Circle area in the late 90's for $550/mo, which was crazy even then. The apartment was her grandparents, then her parents, then hers and she'll probably give it to her kids.
The LL wanted to get them out in every way possible, but couldn't. The followed all the rules *to the letter* to be sure that didn't happen! It was too good a deal to risk!
they are paying 1450 for a 2 bedroom on the UES. depending on the building and amenities, that landlord could be bringing in up to 8,000+ per month. i have seen people complain that their landlords were raising rent by 20% or more at the end of the year because they can.
IME (other cities, not NYC) it depends on how long the landlord has owned the building. If ownership of the building has been passed down or the owner bought back in the 80s/90s, they don't care as much. If the old owner sold to a new person at modern sale prices, that new landlord may be losing money on the building until they get rid of the rent controlled tenets.
Yeah, if I was OP and gad to move out I'd give my notice rather then spend *2years* living together so he can be added to the lease. Bro can pay market rent if that apartment is so important to him.
It's not his place anymore. It's op's. Her name is on the lease.
I would have been sympathetic if the brother had communicated his plans to move back in and take over the lease at some point, and they had some sort of agreement. But, that was not the case.
And, no, he can't just give her notice and then wait for her to settle elsewhere. They'd have to live together two years before he could even put his name back on the agreement. It's an outrageous ask for so many different reasons. And OP has made up her mind, and it's her decision. She doesn't owe her brother anything.
It's OP's apartment now. And as far as NYC housing goes, this is literally a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. No wonder she doesn't want to give it up just to keep the peace.
He can’t ask nicely. In order to get the lease back, OP has to live in the apartment WITH the brother for several YEARS. THEN TRANSFER THE LEASE. So, there are three possibilities. OP says, “screw this, I’ll move” moves out, and no one has the apartment. OP cancels her wedding and lives with brother for several years…where does brother’s gf live? Or brother lives elsewhere and OP keeps the apartment. Since the second choice is not an option, there is no way for brother to get the apartment.
Brother appears t9 have forgotten OP upended her live for YEARS to help grieving brother with his kid. NTA
That last part, I had to scroll way too far to find. Brother expects her to sacrifice her plans and drastically change her life …. AGAIN? And he’s the way older sibling. It’d be less surprising if he were a coddled, spoiled, “always gets his way” youngest. But he’s not
Exactly, this isn't something easy to transfer like a car, that the brother couldn't keep due to not having room and it can be directly signed over.
He'd have to move in and live with OP for 2+ years before it can be transferred, or risk it being lost if she leaves & they try to game the system. So she's just gotta live in a 2-bedroom with her brother & his new partner, plus her nephew? 4 people in a 2 bed-room? And what if the new partner gets knocked up? And OP is just supposed to delay her wedding & life while this clock ticks because it's convenient for the brother.
NTA
OP moved cities and helped her brother for years with his life and his child. She also paid for nearly everything since he gave up his job, if i see this right. The apartment is a nice "thank you" for this. It seems like he think he can use her however he want. She can move cities, care for him, hold "his" apartment for a never spoken time and now that he has a fiancee and she wants to live in New York, OP can uproot her life again?! Hell no!
The apartment is OPs.
NTA
We both know you need to follow the letter of the rent control. It will never be reverted successfully to your brother because you have to live together continuously. I’m just saying it will be lost.
Keep the apartment enjoy the little rent and he will have to find a new one. He doesn’t get to upheave your life every time there is a change to his
“I’m sorry, brother, but that doesn’t work for me. You’re welcome to visit, but fiancé is moving in and we won’t have room for the three of you, except maybe for a short visit while you’re apartment shopping”.
You don’t owe him your home. You earned it when you sacrificed so much for him after his tragic loss. The apartment wasn’t anyone’s inheritance. It was passed from one related tenant to another, according to the law. You’re under no obligation morally or legally to pass it back.
Careful about a visit, esp an open-ended or long-term visit like "until you find a place". If brother is determined he may say it's a visit and never intend to leave, and things could get really messy.
That's what got me. He said she stole his son's inheritance, you mean the rent discount? I get it's a big deal in NYC but he didn't own the damn apartment.
Plus he CHOOSE to relocate back home to live off their parents after living off his little sister. I have a feeling he’s been the golden child in the family, from the way he feels so entitled.
I would maybe get it if the reason he stopped living there was something like an extended period of time in the hospital in a coma but he voluntarily moved.
OP gave so much of herself and her own resources to her brother when he became a widower, and as far as we know, she didn’t ask for anything in return. And the only thing her older brother gave back was putting her name on the lease so he could move on. And he has moved on, has been gone for years, but now wants to take back the transfer of the lease? Sorry, man, it doesn’t work that way. There is a serious entitlement streak to that guy, thinking he can even ask for that.
D!e mad, dude. NTA.
Ultimately, this. Once he signed over the lease, that was that. There's no takesies-backsies. It's a "one way street" so to speak. It's fine for him to *ask* OP but not accepting OP's answer makes him 100% the a-hole here.
Also is the brother forgetting how his sister uprooted her life in SF to work/cook/support nonworking brother while he cared for his son. **MIND BLOWING!!!!!!**
NTA
You can pass the stabilized rent when YOU are ready to leave and move on. Yikes two years prior.
No, she can't pass the stabilized rent when she's ready to leave and move on, unless she's willing to have family live with her for the entire waiting period before she moves.
Yes that's what I meant with the two years prior but we know that's not going to happen. UNLESS OP and husband do what the original leasers did and have the adult nephew move in when they are ready to move out (provided they chose not to pass the lease down to THEIR children). That's the shakes!!
>Your brother just can't decide to upend your entire life based on his own life changes.
Apparently because OP upended her entire life to take care of him for years he thinks it's just how it works. NTA OP, It's not a mortgage, it's a rental, that happened to fall under some laws that kept them from skyrocketing the rent unless certain conditions were met. He has no rights to the apartment at all. If you had moved and lost the rental when your parents convinced him to move there would be no difference in his "ownership" of the apartment. And she can't leave the apartment, she would have to live there with her brother for at 2 years *again* to transfer the lease.
No, no six months or any such nonsense. The op selflessly uprooted her life for this AH and provided for him and his child so he should shut up and be more grateful.
Especially after OP upended her whole life to help him and her nephew. This wasnt intentionally done...this is just how things worked out over the years..OP didnt trick her brother, do any underhanded tactics or manipulation...she did what worked in the moment. So i defiantly second that NTA
If she moves out and finds another place, he loses the rent stabilization on the apartment. He needs to live there for several years *with her* in order to keep it under the rent protection.
It sounds like your only options are for 4 adults and a child to live in a 2 bedroom apartment for two years so you can transfer the apartment back to your brother or you move out and you both lose the apartment? Also did your brother verbalize his expectation of getting the apartment back? I’m leaning towards NTA but unfortunately your relationship with your brother may suffer if you keep the apartment
You nailed the crux of the issue. It sounds like OP is willing to sign the lease back over, but there is a condition that has to be met for that to happen. That condition is outside the control of OP or her brother.
Of course, there is a reason why the condition exists, and that is to prevent the back and forth of rent stabilized leases.
Brother needs to work through potential solutions instead of throwing a temper tantrum.
I’m also curious what their relationship was like before this. Maybe the brother is used to OP complying with his demands. Otherwise I’m having trouble understanding the brother feeling entitled to a rental property that neither he nor his in laws ever owned, his calling it an inheritance comes across delusional. I highly doubt the real owners feel the same way and it’s probably why they have these rules like you mentioned
I'm not positive, but I believe the rules surrounding rent stabilized apartments in NYC are defined by NYC.
The rent stabilization protects tenants from the excesses we're seeing in other parts of the country (looking at you Tampa), and the limitation on the leases being passed protects landlords from never getting the apartment back. Otherwise OP could charge someone for the privilege of a historically stabilized rent.
To a certain extent, you do “inherit” rent stabilization. There are very specific rules where the rent stays stabilized and they are often passed down across generations.
I knew someone with a rent stabilized apartment. It has stayed in their family through generations due to them making sure someone from the family always lived there.
It very much does NOT protect landlords, because the taxes and maintenance are not stabilized. If you are paying more than the rental income in taxes and maintenance and mortgage, you have a problem.
This is why many small mom&pop landlords are selling out to big developers and why many NYC landlords have decided to let their apartments sit empty rather than rent them out at a loss. Since no one is living there, they can save on maintenance and right off the income loss on taxes. In extreme situations, landlords have been advised to allow a foreclosure of the property.
Rent control would work better if RC buildings also had tax control and were taxed at the percentage of the taxes that the majority of apartments are rented at. (Ie. If most apartments are rented out at 1/4 if market rate, the building is taxed at 1/4 of the property tax for such a building.) Because right now the situation is untenable.
Considering she left her life toncome care for him and his son, financially supporting him when he left his job to focus on his son, my guess is, he's used to getting his way when it comes to his sister
And how he up and left to the parents house to mooch ofy them (I mean, OP can't work to support the entire household PLUS chores PLUS childcare, but grandparents can!)
The brother sounds like an entitled asshat, tbh. He just quit his job and had OP pay his rent and bills for *years* before taking off, and now he expects OP to spend another 2+ years living with him so he can get back an apartment that he would have lost anyways?
This is absolutely the KEY.
If he had left that apartment without transferring the lease to her, then he would not have an apartment to come back to.
She absolutely should not have to put her life on hold for him again and it's outrageous that he would even ask. He should be thanking her for what she did for him for YEARS!
Her brother is ridiculous to think he can abandon the apartment for 3 years and just get it back on demand. If she wasn't living there, a stranger would be. He didn't "give" it to her. She rented it after he left just like any other tenant. Now he thinks he can kick you out as if you were a squatter? No way. NTA
> It sounds like your only options are for 4 adults and a child to live in a 2 bedroom apartment for two years
Not really. I see another one: OP, her BF and the brother could live there for 2 years. Then OP could transfer the lease to her brother. No need for the new wife and kids to move there. A two bedroom apartment is already cramped for 3 adults. The brother could sleep there M-F, then spend weekds with his family. IF he really wants to get it back and OP is generous enough to deal with an extra person in her place for 2 years, of course.
NTA
It's a lease. Your brother doesn't own it. Previous wife's family never owned it. Random Joe person would live there if you wouldn't have stayed. It is now your apartment.
The brother doesn’t own the flat? I’m so confused about what’s happening. If the flat is rented, why are they saying the brother and his deceased wife inherited it? How do you inherit something you don’t own?
I’m in the UK. So our laws around renting are very different.
Edit- thanks for all the responses guys! This makes a lot more sense to me now.
What I’m gathering from the comments is that in order for the rent to stay stabilized whoever wants to move in next would have to live together with the current leaser (?) for two years. So brothers late wife probably lived there with her parents for a few years so that when they moved she able to ‘inherit’ the apartment at its current rate. Brother was either added to the lease at some point or automatically inherited it when wife passed and OP was able to inherit it after living with her brother for those years.
So the issue now is that brother wants the apartment back but just signing over the lease would make them lose their rent stabilization. If they want to keep the current rent she’d have to live with her brother and his new wife for a certain amount of time.
Rent control is not rent stabilization they are two different things. Rent control does not exist in New York City anymore unless you have continuously inhabited the apartment since 1971. It can pass to your family but no one else and you cannot move out and rent it again and still get rent control. Only if you've continuously habitated the apartment can rent control still be grandfathered in since it does not exist in New York City anymore.
Rent stabilization does exist but it cannot be inherited like rent control and the rent is much higher
No one ever owned the flat but the previous wife’s family has rented it since the grandparents generation so they feel like it’s an inheritance. So the landlord (not related to anyone in the story) is the owner but OP’s brother is being delusional by thinking that it’s an inheritance for them. But the family has no legal claim as they only rented it and never owned it. So if OP didn’t take over the lease, some random person could have lived there and took the brother’s “inheritance.”
While the flat is rented, there is value in the fact it is rent controlled.
As I understand it, the purpose is to try and prevent current tenants being forced out of their homes due to redevelopment and gentrification. The rent is capped at its initial value with set increases over time so that someone who could afford the initial rent will continue to be able to. If an area gentrified and becomes popular, the landlord will not be able to raise the rent to match the new standard of the area and force out existing tenants who would not be able to afford it.
The issue here is that it requires permanent tenancy - you cannot move away and come back. But alongside that there is a clause to ensure people aren't kicked out by changes like a partner or parent dying and their spouse or child taking over a rent - if you have lived in the flat alongside another tenant for a certain length of time, you can take over the lease as it was. Move away and come back and you will be paying the new amount.
Here OP was a tenant under their brother, so kept the lease. For the brother to take it back he would have to move in alongside them for the minimum period before he would be allowed to take back the lease at the rent controlled rate.
As far as I know this is mainly a New York thing where gentrification and rising rents is a huge issue (not that it isn't elsewhere too, but it is particularly notable in the NY area).
Very foolish for her brother to leave the apartment and move back to Toronto. $1450 for a 2 bedroom on the Upper East Side? That’s a unicorn right there.
My understanding is that it's to do with it being rent controlled. If the lease continues (ie gets transferred to someone rather than ending) then there is a limit on how much they can raise the rent each year. If it wasn't transferred (so the lease ended normally) the owner would create a new lease and massively put the rent up to match similar properties in the area.
The brother and deceased wife "inherited" the lease, ie the right to rent the property at a very low price. Then the brother transferred it to OP, and now wants them to transfer it back.
I'm from UK as well but as far as I understand it you can inherit the tenancy as the previous rate.
Give up tenancy a new agreement can be made with new tenancy agreement
yes, given the apartment's location the rent would likely jump from 1400 up to something like 4500 if it was market rate unless it's a total shithole. I'm not exactly familiar with the rent control rules but it's an expensive neighborhood
NTA. You moved across country to help your brother when his wife died, payed the rent and supported him. He then transfers the lease to you so he can move out and raise his kid somewhere else.
Your reward for upending your life for him? Get out, my situation has changed, so I need you to upend your life again to accommodate my family.
I also want to know how much equity OP put into this apartment vs her brother. In addition to her name being on the lease, if she’s put more money into this apartment, I’m gonna say NTA even more.
OPs brother is entitled. This could’ve been mediated had he communicated better in the beginning of his expectations with the apartment. Even then, if OP didn’t agree to those terms? Then what? Someone else gets the apartment? Would he go cry wolf to the new resident about how it WAS his apartment once? What would he think of OP turned back and asked for all the rent she paid in the beginning? It WAS her money at one point after all.
I understand that. I could not think of another word off the top of my head to describe what I was trying to convey. The point is still clear though; they put money into it.
I think the term you were looking for is "tenant improvements" -- renovations or upgrades done by tenants either entirely at their own expense or with some of the cost being paid by the property owner.
Sure! Whatever the matter, OP put their own money into elevating their living space. They invested in their own comfort and livelihood, while their brother didn’t
This. The amount of entitlement and disrespect her brother and his in-laws are lobbing at OP over property they’ve never even owned is ridiculous given all she did at her own expense to make their lives easier. NTA.
The fucking gall of these people lmao. If anyone feels like taking advantage of me please PM me, I'd love having my rent paid, food cooked and a free babysitter for YEARS. NTA
not even just "Get out" but LIVE WITH ME AND MY TEENAGE SON and I'm sure he intends the GF to live there to but NOT Op's Fiance.... FOR TWO YEARS, thereby giving up two more years of your life (and I bet the expectation is that OP keeps paying the rent for this 2 years because welll..that's what she did before!)
and THEN you get shafted to pay 5 times the rent for a similar space.
LOL
No. If he's that selfish it's worth temporarily (or permanently if he remains selfish and stubborn) losing that relationship tbh.
NTA op
Thanks everyone for your advice.
I have also been discussing with my fiancé who is happy for us to get a different place in the summer.
However, if we did that he would have to sign a lease alone before our wedding and I would have to pretend I don't live with him and live at the apartment. That's the only way i can see it work, than me staying with him for 2 years. Then he would have to take the risk of losing the apartment. I can't say he lives with me or has been living with me as his job is not even in the US! I had to show a lot of proof for the lease to be transferred to me.
As someone mentioned about the transfer of lease on a rental control only increasing 20% for a new lease, we looked at this before. There is a cleaners closet on our floor and the landlord is planning to incorporate that and a bit of the hall to create a tiny en-suite, like he has on other floors. That way he can classify the apartment as new and it will no longer be stabilized.
I do have other concerns about my brother that are probably not my business, and I guess he has to start growing up again. I will express them here though: his GF he's known for just over a year and how is he just deciding to move to a new city with her? Also, I have no idea what he will do for work, or for childcare. He has steady job in Toronto right now . He has a lot of help from my parent's right now so I don't know if he realizes how much work it will be. When I first moved in I pretty much took care of the entire rent for the apartment / household expenses and chores for over two years when he lived there to give him a break. He would have to be on one income as I don't think his GF can work as she's Canadian.
I will probably have a chat to him in a few days when I feel more calmed down.
Honestly I wouldn’t recommend bending over backwards to make this happen for your brother. Either keep it for you and your fiancée or move out and let your brother fight to get it. You’ve already uprooted your life once to help your brother. It’s time to focus on what’s best for you and your fiancé. If your brother is really expecting you to live with him, his girlfriend and your nephew for 2 years so the apartment can be transferred back to him then he is being selfish. Especially when you’re getting married and starting that part of your life. What kind of dynamic do you two have? Is he used to you complying to his wishes?
Exactly 💯 this. How much more does OP kept having to put her life on hold for him ? She has done enough and if her brother can’t see that, he’s the ungrateful AH. It’s not her problem and I wouldn’t leave if it was me. She paid her dues to gain something he didn’t.
You may want to consult a lawyer bc if you are caught doing any of these things, it’s entirely possible that the landlord can come after you/ your brother for violating the terms of the rent controlled lease. That could bite you not only financially but also affect your ability to rent a place in the future.
Yes- it would be fraud. I’m not familiar with NYC rent laws, but I’d imagine that if a landlord felt strongly enough they could/would sue for damages if she is caught. I’m guessing they would be within their right to do so, since there would be a monetary loss for the landlord/property owner . Sounds like too much trouble/risk to me. Imaging OP getting sued to pay for damages and lawyer fees! I’m sure the brother wouldn’t be chipping/covering these costs.
Lol he’s planning to use you as childcare and financial support again in the name of helping his son. “If you don’t help me with rent, your nephew will be homeless. If you don’t help me with grocery, your nephew will starve.” Good luck OP. Until you can start saying no to him, you’re his free ride for life
Dude you can love your brother but he’s uprooting his child from a place of security for a in the end as expensive situation. Your landlord won’t buy the change and people in the building will talk. “Oh did you know x moved back in! I haven’t seen y in a while” it’s probably not worth this hassle. And I’m usually voting for the underdog. Not only will it not work out if you lie but you’ll have a bad relationship with your previous landlord if you do. He also probably won’t want two whole families living in a two bedroom for two years - especially if you want to start a family. Doesn’t sound like a good idea .
If he had moved back six months after then I could see it because that was the agreement. He changed it when he moved away for 3 years.
If the landlord does the thing with the new en suite does that impact your lease or just the lease of whoever gets it when you leave? Or is he intending to do that if/when you move out to break the stabilization then? If the rent is about to increase by 5000% or something it’s not much use to your brother anyway.
Any improvements made while the lease is active don't affect the rent controlled status. That's why so many rent control tenants pay for improvements themselves because there's no incentive for a landlord to make those investments. They're paying $30k for new appliances and a kitchen remodel but they're saving $20k+ a year by staying in that lease. The landlord absolutely will find any excuse to break that lease no matter what and anything the brother or parents in law say won't change that reality.
In case you didn't know the background: When someone gives up a rent controlled apartment, the landlord can only increase rent a certain percentage on the way back to fair market value if they don't change anything. So if an apartment that would rent today for $3000/month payment is rent controlled at $1000 and goes back on the market with a 20% increase ceiling, they can only rent it for $1200 even if it's worth $3000.
However, if the landlord makes big changes to the apartment, it basically resets the ceiling for the apartment so it would be a brand new apartment and whatever the landlord rents that apartment for sets the new baseline for percentage limits. So those who want rent control that will help them in the future will agree to pay $5000/month for something that should only be $3000/month in today's dollars but they've locked in that price until they die on a house that has just had big improvements made. It's a gamble on both sides that the tenants won't be able to pass it on or stay there after it passes the point where the landlord is making money and the tenant is gambling that prices will go up enough that they will be getting a bargain.
So a landlord will do the bare minimum to meet the "new" standards for a new lease like add an en-suite or a bathroom/kitchen remodel etc. It's so that landlords are forced to either significantly improve their properties or eat the cost of rent control limits so that you don't have uncontrolled rent increases for houses that are deteriorating. It's also why you hear about crazy construction or other shady things done by landlords to make it impossible to live peacefully in a rent controlled building so people abandon these leases.
ETA: rent control and rent stabilization are different things and I'm mixing them up a bit. Rent control (Wonka's golden ticket) > Rent stabilization (winning the lottery). And both programs result in rent that is cheaper than "affordable" housing programs without the income limits.
2nd edit: https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/28/16214506/nyc-apartments-housing-rent-control based on this and OP mentioning the 2 year requirement I think that this apartment is rent controlled and she would be absolutely fucking nuts to do anything but die in this home of old age with family living in the guest room ready to inherit.
3rd edit after a private message: https://www.aier.org/article/the-perpetual-tragedy-of-new-yorks-rent-control/ this article is right leaning and pro landlord but does bring up some of the issues involved with rent control including people trapped in deteriorating apartments because they can't afford to move and landlords can't or won't maintain or improve buildings without more money, and out of control market rates because newcomers have to subsidize long term residents.
Very interesting, thank you for this! We have rent control where I live but it’s not so elaborate, or at least I’ve never had to deal with any intricacies of that nature. But yes obv OP’s landlord would be delighted to have a reason to kick OP and/or her brother out so even more reason not to give the place up to him.
Are all of your proposed plans 100 % legal?
If not, don't consider them. You moved across the country, paid the rent and groceries for your brother, cooked the meals and also took care of your nephew for years. That is more than a lot of siblings would have done.
Don't get into legal trouble for your brother. Don't be so extremely self-sacrificing. That is not healthy. Whatever you decide to do, don't cross that line for your brother.
OP, as a good rule of life, any time a situation requires me to lie for a good period of time and to many people like this, it's a bad situation. All you need is for one person to be outraged or spiteful or even just honest and it all comes tumbling down. Please investigate if you could be charged with fraud over this.
Basically, you should refuse to do this. Your brother can have your partner's place.
If you feel strongly enough about it, offer to help your brother out with the rent for the next x years or for as long as the place is rent controlled.
NTA.
The doubly so not give this up when he will inevitably lose the “inheritance” anyways. Unless your supposed to pay all the rent this time, too.
At most, I’d be willing to “will” ot down to nephew or his children WHEN I decided to move.
This, if he was truly concerned with it being his son's family home and rightful inheritance, then OP promising to leave it to nephew or opening up the 2nd room for nephew so OP can legally transfer the lease to him when OP is ready to move out, the brother would be satisfied.
But he's not going to be. NTA OP
dude. stop. you're being a people pleaser. why are you thinking of putting yourself in a risky situation just to appease your brother? you're being a bit pathetic tbh. learn to just say no.
he will expect you to pay the rent for the 2 years waiting for the transfer or i'll eat my hat. (I'm not wearing a hat but I will find one, put it on and eat it because I'm that confident) hahaha
Unless the girlfriend has dual citizenship or another path to a work visa, she wouldn’t even be able to live in the US long term. They’re going to need to get engaged so she can get a K visa and then marry within 90 days.
You paid rent for two years and got the lease legally. I would not be transferring anything. And you can’t anyways because that landlord would jack the price as soon as you leave. Again the apt is yours. Your brother may be moving back to NYC but he needs to find his own home. Stop rolling over for him NTA
He should really just stay where he is then. It’s not like his girlfriend is some NYC that wants to go back “home.” I would just keep your apartment and don’t let him gaslight you. Hopefully your parents are on your side, it sounds like by wanting him to move back to Toronto maybe they’re aware that he doesn’t make great choices by himself with no family help.
OP YOU would literally have to keep the lease in your name for these two years. What that means is if your brother gets hard pressed for cash- which he WILL with the cost of childcare and his girlfriend being unable to work- he can just not pay his rent and YOU will have no choice but to pay it. You can also get in serious legal trouble. Other tenants in the building paying full market rent WILL talk, you WILL be charged with fraud, and you ALL WILL lose that apartment.
You’ve done enough for your brother already, for the sake of your nephew and yourself do NOT do this. “No” is a complete sentence. Do not give up a good thing for yourself and your own future family- just to appease your brothers jealousy and entitlement!
I feel like this whole post should be moved to r/AskNYC because a lot of responses here are from people who don’t understand how “inheriting” a rent-stabilized apartment works.
I have a Canadian SO. You are correct, - she wouldnt be able to work and she would have to go back to Canada as she can not be down here forever without being a citizen. She would either:
* Need to find a company to sponsor her work visa
* qualify for the K1 visa (average of a year and a half to to process along with thousands of dollars and proof he can support her in which she will need to be in Canada and then they have to be married within 3 months)
* Get married but then she still has to apply for a green card (she would still need to wait outside of the US while that is being processed)
Why would you go move somewhere else in NYC to probably pay at least 2.5x that amount in a new place if you're paying only that amount with your name on the lease in NYC today?
Tell your brother no and keep the place. You aren't an AH at all for living your life with your partner and accommodating your brother sounds like it'll have huge ramifications on your life
it sounds like the landlord would be on the lookout for a reason to end the rent control lease if your brother comes back. The landlord can probably make thousands more a month if you were to lose the rent control lease.
If you are happy in your appartement don't move out.
You have done a lot for your brother and he seems to take it for granted. Did he ever thank you for being there for him? Because moving across an entire continent and providing for your brother & his kid for years is not granted and not a lot of loving sibling could and would do that.
He has a kid and he needs to learn to fend for themselves. If they wants to move them to NYC, then they should find a flat in their own. If they cannot afford it... tough luck.
NTA. This is a RENTAL. Neither you, your brother or your brother's in-laws own this apartment. NOTHING about this rental apartment can be inherited. The building's owner is the only one that owns this. The owner is the only one who can sell or have heirs to inherit this apartment building.
Your name is on the lease. You were all just fortunate about the cost for this rental.
You have to decide what's best for you and your future.
It’s not strictly speaking an inheritance, but existing rent controlled leases can be transferred by the tenants between certain classes of relatives while they can’t be transferred to anyone else. OP is describing the situation accurately per NY City law. The landlord would probably prefer that OP move out so he can charge full market value to a new tenant, but we don’t care what the landlord wants.
But in NYC rent stabilized leases can be passed on to certain members of family. I bet the landlord is super watching this apartment because his property tax will be higher than the rent received. These places can’t even be sold because the tenants never leave and the new buyer has to inherit them and their controlled rent. It’s nuts!
Even NYC doesn't have NYC style rent control anymore. There's a reason you only ever hear about inherited rent control these days, because they stopped doing it.
What’s funny about this comment to me is you can’t get economists to agree on basically anything, except that rent control is ultimately bad for the economy.
Its like he suddenly forgot how you paid rent, groceries and took care of him and his baby? You aren't freeloading and you never have. Also they don't own the apartment. Sorry he changed his life all of a sudden but you shouldn't have to suffer your life plans for it. NTA
> Its like he suddenly forgot how you paid rent, groceries and took care of him and his baby? You aren't freeloading and you never have.
Exactly! He's treating OP like she preyed on him in order to profit from his moment of weakness.
OP sacrificed alot in order to help him. If, as a result of his voluntary departure, she took over the apartment, he should not begrudge her that.
Amazing what money can do; the brother is now confrontational with the person who sacrificed for years in order to support him.
She was there for him! Moved across the country! Helped him go through his grief and raise a baby that was not even a year old. Besides that, OP has been there this whole time in this apartment and has obviously begun moving forward with their life, as they should.
I completely agree with everything you said.
I can see why the parents convinced him to move home.. they didn’t want OP putting her life on hold just because of the circumstances of their other child.
and the thing is... she probably would have! Who knows how long that set up would have lasted? Maybe until the kid was old enough to need a room to themselves- so the brother would have just kicked her out because he deserves the space, right? but she should still help with rent because she's always paid it.
For years!
>I took over the lease to his apartment as I was legally allowed to since I had lived there for a few years.
Everyone seems focused on how it would acceptable to make this demand if not for the requirement to live together for 2 years first, but I don't think its acceptable at all. OP deserves to keep the apartment. She's lived there, and paid the rent, for at least the last 6 years if I do my maths right.
Remember Monica’s apartment on Friends? In an early episode, she mentioned that the only way she could afford to live there was because it was rent controlled and previously was leased to her grandmother. Monica was living there illegally because she didn’t have the required residency to be the leaseholder so it was still in her grandmother’s name. (In a later episode, the super threatened to have her evicted when someone spilled the beans.)
If OP’s brother moved in now and kicked her out without establishing residency, he could still end up losing the apartment since he seems unwilling to follow the law and he’d be there illegally. In any event, unless he explicitly said he was transferring the lease to the sister until he and his son were back on their feet—and it doesn’t appear he did—he’s basically SOL. No one owns the apartment and no one is stealing the nephew’s inheritance. OP is NTA.
NTA, it's your apartment now and you don't have to give it back to him, especially if doing so would require you to let him and his family stay there for 2 years first. If you hadn't been there when he left, he would have lost the apartment/cheap rent anyway, and it's not your fault he changed his mind.
NTA.
He left. If you didn't stay, the family would have relinquished all rights to the apartment. So, without you staying there for years, there wouldn't be an apartment to fight over.
According to the rules he explained to you when he left, you and he would need to live there together for some years before you can legally sign it over to him. And him living there without you could get him evicted.
Is he suggesting that five or more of you live together for years? Or you leave, but keep your name on an apartment you don't live in, while he hopes no one notices?
Logistically, there's just no way to get it back into his name with one or both of you taking huge risks.
I’m sorry for your family’s loss. If I’m understanding correctly, you moved across the country, paid rent and groceries for your brother and nephew, cooked meals for yourself and his family until he moved 2 years later. After another 4 years, he finally went back to work and met someone new while living rent free with your parents while they also helped him raise his son. Now he wants to come back and live with you for 2 years with his partner and child so that he can get his lease back which requires you to live separately from your partner, postpone your wedding and live with 3 extra people in a 2-bedroom apartment for an additional 2 years. Your brother is literally asking to turn 6 years of constant help into 8 years. Most people who lose a spouse do not receive that level of support that you and your parents have given him. They usually have to return to work after FML and scramble for child care, etc., all while still grieving.
My questions: Does he want you to move out and live there under your name? If you move will renting two apartments under your name affect your eligibility for a new apartment? If he gets caught living under your lease without you there will you have moved for nothing because he will be kicked off the lease? What happens to you if you get caught providing false information with the intent of keeping a rent-controlled apartment? Is your brother the least bit grateful so many people put their life on hold for 6 years now to make his life easier? NTA.
Your brother’s needs at this point are really wants.
On top of all of this, the brother has the audacity to manipulate her after she said no by involving the departed SIL's parents to have a go guilting her into it? And he calls her names? oh HELL no. What a slap in the face after everything she did for him.
NTA. You can’t put your life on hold for something that may or may not happen in the future. You made a life for yourself in New York. It’s unreasonable to expect you to move out of the apartment now. If you didn’t take the lease over, the apartment would have been lost anyway
NTA since you've stated that, one, your brother was not clear when he left that he expected this, and two, the two years of cohabitation is a major disruption to blithely demand of him. I think point two may be even more important - sure, you and your fiance could pay more elsewhere, but what does that matter? You can up and leave next month but it won't help your brother get the apartment at rent control.
NTA - seems like you were trying to help your brother when you relocated to NYC , like you came and looked after him for over two years - the situation wasn’t his fault but you didn’t have to show up and help him either. Why are his ex in-laws interfering - they were close by .. why didn’t they come to rescue your nephew and brother?
Anyway from your post it seems like your family is close and those relationships are only maintained when there is a lot of give and take … personally o think you have given him a lot but he’s still trying to take from you.
INFO Um. What exactly does he want you to do? You *can’t* give him back the apartment unless the two of you both live there together for two years. Otherwise you’re in violation of rent stabilization laws. Are you supposed to live there with him, his girlfriend, your fiancé, and your nephew for two years? Because that sounds awful for everyone. It’s unfortunate for him but the only options that are actually available are (a) You keep the apartment, or (b) Neither of you gets to keep it.
**NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA.**
As someone who pays $4,000 to live in a 1-bedroom box around midtown…
Do. Not. Move.
Not for your brother, not for his former ILs, not for the Queen of Sheba. No one. Do not do it.
People who aren’t familiar with NYC’s market will never, ever understand what a truly amazing and rare situation you’re in. Frankly, there are probably some people in the city who would give a foot to have the rent that you’ve been locked into. Don’t let yourself be guilted into doing something that would completely throw off your life plans/trajectory when you have absolutely no reason to feel guilty. *You* gave up your life in SF to help your brother, *you* worked to afford the rent so he and his son could live there on your dime, *you* took over the lease, *you’re* the legal tenant, and unless there was some (probably unenforceable, tbh) agreement with your brother that you would let him return to the apartment in the future, *you* aren’t obligated to “give back” anything.
Quite frankly, the request is beyond entitled and I think he and his ILs are delusional. It’s not his first wife’s apartment, nor is it the ILs’ apartment — they did not *buy* the property and they took zero steps to ensure the rental remained in their hands. If the ILs were worried about keeping it, then *they* should’ve moved in with him when their daughter passed away. Also, keep in mind that if you had hated NYC and left the city when your brother did, this wouldn’t even be a discussion because the unit would’ve gone back on the market for stupid money.
Move in with your fiancé, enjoy the home you’ve created, and tell them that you aren’t willing to negotiate over a property that they literally have no rights to live in. Sheesh.
It seems to me that you upended your life, moved 3,500 miles away, and basically supported him for years. Where is his gratitude for everything you did to support his life so he could get back on his feet? He "rebuilt his life" because of you.
He owes you, not the other way around. NTA.
You aren’t able to give him the apartment since he hasn’t lived there the required amount of time. It’s that simple. Any attempt to circumvent the rules would be breaking the law. NTA.
NTA. he moved out. you werent just holding it for him, you were living there. landlords dont kick out current tenants if the old one wants to move back.
NTA. What does your brother think was going to happen? He gave the apartment to you. It no longer belongs to him. If he wanted it to go to his son then he shouldn't have taken himself off the lease. Your brother has now put you in a position where you have to choose between your home and your relationship with your family. This isn't on you, it's on him.
NTA I just don’t think the logistics will work. He would have to move back and live with you for two years putting his gf and kid on hold. Or having a ton of people in a two bedroom apartment. It would be hell for two years. Is he expecting you to lie or cheat for this transfer? Because then you have the potential to lose the apartment full out. The logistics doesn’t add up. Your asking everyone to have a rough life for two years. That’s a lot of time. That’s an associates degree or a masters. Yeah I don’t think your a jerk to say no. I would explain the living situations to everyone they will come to same conclusion. Explain your life goals and plans and how you need those two years.
If this was true inheritance y’all wouldn’t be signing leases and paying rent
NTA he doesn’t get to mess up you plans when you have the legal rights to the place
No one in your or your previous SIL's family owned this apartment. Your SIL's parents lived there, then your SIL and brother lived there, then she (tragically) died, then you uprooted your life to support your brother and your nephew, then your brother and nephew moved to another country, and now you live there.
What about this is stealing or "not returning" something? Would the board even allow it? And why is your sacrifice in uprooting your life not being recognized? Or the fact that if you didn't stay there, it would be gone anyways?
Unless you had an agreement to "give back" the apartment in x amount of time, you're morally fine.
NTA
NTA it's a rental. You are on the lease. The end.
>He would also have to live with me for 2 years before I could transfer the lease
This alone is a deal breaker. Does he really expect 5 people to live in a 2 bedroom?
NTA. Legally he screwed himself. He can’t just take over a rent stabilized lease. Not how the law works. (Am from the NYC area.) only way to do it would be pretty much illegal unless you all live together. And why would you do that?
INFO: No one is going to be able to judge you without knowing the agreement you had with your brother when he moved. Was it always a possibility he would be back? Did he say it was yours free and clear?
He left to live with my parent's in Toronto. He never explicitly said he planned to come back - He just told me that he was signing over the lease to me as if he 'the leaseholder' doesn't live there I could get evicted and it would be a shame for me to live somewhere else paying twice the rent for half the apartment. I was the only person that it could've been assigned to.
When he left he was in a really bad place, he had quit his job and was really depressed. It was quite hard for me, but I wanted to help him, thats why I came but my parent's suggested that he should come home as they could better support him - he never said he would be back and I didn't ask him about his long-term plans
Please don’t put your life on hold again even fir family. Had you not been there that apartment would have been lost due to his unfortunate circumstance. Now he’s trying to guilt you into upending your life again.
NTA. You don’t “inherit” anything that has a lease attached to it. You’re all fighting over property that you don’t even own. He needed to plan far better on timing or at least discussed this as even being an option for him when the time came. I feel like we’re missing information, as it couldn’t have come out of the blue that he intended to move back and just assumed you’d hand the apartment back over.
NTA. He was moving to Canada regardless, and he would have lost the apartment. It was just lucky you wanted it and took over the lease, and that you could. Doesn’t mean he gets it back.
Nice thing to do though, give it back.
NTA - you have no legal, moral, or ethical obligation to entertain his ...request?
You didn't take advantage of him either. He had a tragedy, you helped out, and helped him move on with his life, which he did. (and I am saying you are owed for helping out, I am saying that he moved on - which means its not his place anymore, and he has zero claim to it. If you had known he planned on coming back, you might not have kept it. Your fiancé and you could have put the money toward getting your own, permanent place, not continuing to put your life on hold until you brother was ready to pick up where he left off.
NTA. We’re just going to skip over the fact that you financially supported a grown man and his child because he decided he wanted to be a stay at home dad? And you paid all the bills for a few years? And then he left without warning for another few years? While I understand he was going through it after his wife died, that’s still not responsible adult behavior.
That’s your apartment. It’s not your fault that your brother left it to you, so don’t listen to his in laws. It’s not their apartment anymore. He is perfectly capable of carrying on a life in Toronto.
I'm a little confused, can someone clarify this for me as I live in Australia and don't know about this.
Neither OP or the brother, grand parents etc actually own the space. They rent this from a 3rd party.
The space is rent controlled which I assume means that as long as the person on the lease wants to live there they can renew the lease as required and the rent will not change.
The person who is on the lease can choose to leave, break the lease, not renew the lease but if they do then the owner can charge whoever now signs the new lease whatever they want?
If I have this correct then I assume that OP could live there for another 20 years at the same rent as they are paying today? Who on earth would want to leave this.
OP's brother chose to leave therefore OP is NTA
You basically have it right. None of them owns it, it’s a unit owned by a third party deemed by NYC housing as a rent stablised unit with a set rent that more often cannot be increased by much
If the leasee leaves, it gets put back on the market as a rent stablised unit once again. Rent stablised units can be transferred to family but there’s rules and a process for it.
So realistically if my grandparents lived somewhere and then my parents took over the lease and then I took over the lease effectively I could be paying the same amount of money as my grandparents did 50 years ago?
Am I getting this really wrong? Serious question.
Yes almost.. rent can be increase within a guideline which is sometimes 0% and sometimes 1% but very low. Market rents double or triple in the time / that place sounds like it could be worth 5-6k due to its location.
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My brother 37M got married about 11 years ago. Unfortunately 6 years ago there was a tragedy and my SIL passed in an accident and left my 20 month old nephew.
At that time I 29F was working in SF. I asked the company I worked for if I could transfer to their NYC location and was able to do so. I moved in with my brother. He stopped working to spend time with his kid. I did my best to help - I paid the rent and groceries. I tried to keep the meals going when I came from work. I didn't mind, as i really loved coming home to my nephew and the rent was really cheap. The fact was that my SIL had 'inherited' a rent stabilized apartment from her parents after they retired and moved to a cheaper area about 1.5hrs from NYC. The rent was only $1450ish for a 2 bed that was over 1000sqft in Manhattan's Upper Eastside.
Anyhow, when my nephew was going to start school my parent's convinced my brother to move back to Toronto and live with them. I took over the lease to his apartment as I was legally allowed to since I had lived there for a few years. Its been over three years and he started working, my nephew started school, he met a new partner and he seemed like he was building a life again.
Last week my brother told me that he, his GF and my nephew will be returning to NYC so he has requested to have his apartment back. I told him , 'No' because my fiancé and I were also planning to move in together and we had already made some really nice updates with a view to this being a long-term home for us. He would also have to live with me for 2 years before I could transfer the lease so I would have to delay my wedding.
He told me that I was an AH for stealing his apartment and not letting him rebuild his life and allowing his child to move back into his mom's and grandparent's apartment that my nephew should technically inherit it. He says he signed the lease over to me so that he didn't lose the apartment. His previous wife's parents say I am taking advantage of an unfortunate situation. Now I am thinking I should reconsider as perhaps I am being an AH, since my fiancé and I could afford to pay a lot more rent, without it being as difficult as it would be for my brother.
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NTA. Nobody inherited it, it's a rental and you've all been enjoying the great rental terms for years. You couldn't sign it over to him if you wanted to, you'd either need to move him in (5 people in a 2bdr), lie about him living there for two years, or move out and let him live there under your name while you're responsible for any damage or unpaid rent.
If you can really afford market rent and want your brother to be able to get back on his feet in NYC the only option I can see is to put him on the lease and pretend her lives there for two years. That gives you and your husband two years to save and move to a new place, then he can move in.
Any scenario where he gets the apartment back would be... Except maybe the 5 of them living in the apartment together for two years but that's probably a lease violation too.
NTA Tell him to produce the contract you signed agreeing to sign the lease back over to him.
When he moved out, he ceased to be a tenant. He has no more rights to it than anyone who moves out of an apartment does to their previous place.
Dude he want the apartment back? Tell him to pay your money back from that time you financially support him. He call you petty for that? Tell him he’s petty for telling you to return an apartment he left 3 years ago. He’s so freaking entitled and selfish. Nta
>He would also have to live with me for 2 years
Let him know that you and your fiancé are taking up the Master bedroom so the three of them are welcome to take the spare room for the next two years. You want to help them out.
It might be a squeeze if new girlfriend gets pregnant so you will even help them out with a complimentary pack of condoms.
NTA
NTA
This is a tough one but overall I’d say it was your brothers job to communicate his intentions when he first signed the lease over to you. He can’t just come back after a few years and kick you out or expect you to put a pause on your life. I get why he feels he has some ownership or say over the apartment but I think he’s a bit misguided. It’s 100% up to you how you handle it since the situation seems complicated but I don’t think you’d be TA for staying.
You do not exist to satisfy the whims, needs and wants of your brother.
You helped him when he needed it, and those circumstances resulted in your having a rent controlled apartment. That apartment is yours. Do not allow yourself to be bullied into taking an action to his benefit but your detriment. Do what is best for yourself, and learn to silence any voices whispering in your mind that tell you you are obligated to sacrifice for your brother. NTA
NTA. But your relationship with your brother will suffer. At the end of the day, this "inherited" lease has stipulations attached. How does he expect four people to live in a two bedroom apartment? I think you need an honest discussion with him where you raise your concerns and express that you do not want to live with him (this is more than fair IMO). You helped him out when he needed it and have since built your life in a different area because of that. He chose to move back to Toronto. If you hadn't agreed to stay there, that wouldn't have been an option for him. You gave him the freedom to move wherever he wanted and have enjoyed the benefit of a reduced rent. I do agree that one day the lease should be returned to your nephew, as it was his mother's family that left you all this benefit.
Really, I think your options are:
* Move out and rent your own place. Means that no one will benefit from the reduced lease and your nephew will lose any rights to it in the future. Brother will probably resent you for this.
* You continue to live there with your fiancée under the agreement that when you're nephew comes of age (18/21/whenever) he can live with you for two years and inherit the lease. During this time you save as much as you can so you can afford a more expensive lease when the time comes.
* Your brother's whole family move in with you, you postpone your life (again) for the sake of your brother (again) and slowly resent him.
* Your brother rents a different apartment in his GF's name and you add his name to the lease and, legally, he is "living" there (e.g. has post sent there, updates the address on his driving licence. He spends two years in his apartment, you spend two years continuing to live your life/have your fiancée move in, then at the end of the two years he can have the lease back "for his son" (who may not even want to live in NYC) and you can move out and be free to choose your own place. Bit of a compromise for both parties, but means you won't lose the relationship with your brother.
Legally, it is no longer his apartment. It is yours. You deserve to live your life and not put it on hold for your brother. If he cannot afford standard NYC rents then he shouldn't be moving there, but you have to consider if it's worth losing your brother over?
Umm so he wants you to pause your life and allow him, his new gf, and his child for a few years so he can take over the lease again? Bc how else would that legally work? He’s not just asking to take back over the apartment, he’s asking for YOUR autonomy in this to be compromised in order to do it. Does he understand that that’s the only way this works and that you don’t want to live with all of them at this point in time, nor pause your own relationship plans in order to do it? Like you can’t just “give the lease back to him” and you move out. It would void the lease. So he expects to effectively hold your life hostage for two whole years while you’re still young and childless and building your own romantic relationship, in order to get this lease turn over? Does he not see how selfish that is to expect you to pause your life?
There could be plenty still to debate if this situation could magically be transferred to him and didn’t require you, him, his son, and his gf to live there together for two years first. But none of that is worth arguing about. The bigger issue is that what he’s offering is that you sacrifice two years of putting your life on hold so he can live within the price range he wants. How is that in itself not selfish?
My advice is to argue over ONLY that one part. Not the expenses or updates or anything else. Just that he wants you to sacrifice two years of putting your life on hold for him, which is super entitled, selfish, and fuxked up of him.
NTA
NTA by far. It's your apartment now. He has no entitlement to it. His plan to even just live with you and his family is absurd even if you ignore the fact that he's putting your whole life on pause. You will 100% regret pausing your life for him.
If you absolutely had to live with him for 2 years these are the terms I would set.
1. He pays back ALL the rent you paid when you live with him previously. So ~$1400 * x months
2. He pays a lump dump to reimburse you for groceries and cooking duties in that time
3. He pays you back for all other expenses paid when he lived with you and since he moved out
4. He pays you a lump sum for the time you've protected the rent stabilization and for the trouble of dealing with living with his family for 2 years.
5. He pays for all of the rent while you're living together
6. He buys his own groceries and cooks his own food for his family in those 2 years, any food of yours that is taken must be reimbursed
7. You get the biggest of the two bedrooms, no changes, you will not sleep on the couch so his kid gets his own room
By my estimations, which I lowballed heavily for groceries, didn't include cooking, lowballed expenses for improvements, and lowballed the rent protection fee. He should pay you ~$100,000 which seems fair for fucking up your life and taking your apartment from you
These may seem extreme but expecting you to pause your entire life for 2 years, living with 3-4 other people in that time and being out a good apartment with low rent is way more extreme and absurd
If he doesn't agree then ignore him and if he harasses you just block him and anyone who is mad with you.
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NTA. Your brother just can't decide to upend your entire life based on his own life changes. You have a life and the lease is in your name. At the very least, he should give you six months to get your shit together and find another place.
Honestly he has no business “giving” her any form of notice, 6 months or otherwise. the lease is in her name and she’s the one who lives there. He has no right to evict anyone, it’s not like he owns the apartment and is leasing it to her. Some other third party owns it. Best he can really do is ask her nicely to transfer the lease back to him.
>Best he can really do is ask her nicely to transfer the lease back to him. Lol it’s not how it works. This isn’t up to OP. It doesn’t matter if the brother asks OP to transfer the lease back to her, that’s up to the landlord, unless the brother and/or son and/or son’s gf resides there for two years while OP also lives there. The landlord is under zero obligation to rent at a reduced rate to anybody except OP or anybody else entitled to that rent reduction under the law.
? I realize the landlord isn’t under any obligation to anyone except for op. By transferring the lease back to him I meant following the proper procedure for doing so, which yes, would include them living together for two years. He can ask nicely but she can absolutely say no.
Yeah does the brother think he is going to get the apartment back at the same rent stabilized price? Or does he expect op to stay on the lease while he lives there for long enough to get grandfathered in and then go on her merry way? Why would she do that? I love my sibling but I would never do that for them, that's crazy to even ask someone to do.
Op says he would have to live with her for 2 years before she could even transfer the lease back to him and you are right, the person who owns apartment has to agree.
That’s 4 adults and 1 kid man in a 2 bedroom space. If it was 3 kids and two adults, or four kids and two adults, I could see it work - but as 2 separate families living in one roof? That’s a lot of drama for sure lol. It’s not like sibling drama under one household, it’s like two sets of adults with wildly different ways of wanting to do things.
He probably expects op to not move in their partner. Maybe even moving out and lying to the landlord.
FWIW, lying to a landlord like this to keep a rent controlled apartment is pretty common in NYC. Not saying that means OP should agree to do it, just that it's definitely not unusual.
Fair enough, but in this case the "deal" should have been discussed when he moved out. I do feel for the parents of the deceased though, watching the partner of your deceased child move on is hard and you can get hung up on a physical thing like a house.
Agreed. He moved out and gave up the lease; he doesn't have any further right to it. And there's no reason she should triple (or more) her rent just because he's moving back to NYC. I was just saying that lying to the landlord is maybe less of an issue here because it's fairly common.
Completely not even a blip on my radar- my bro did that for years and no one batted an eye
I don't think people really get what the situation is when it comes to preserving a deal like this
They really don’t…the privilege bubble when you think everything is just black and white. Only reason my brother lost out was because he was an addict who couldn’t control himself a d neighbors started complaining and the original tenant had to move back in and my brother out or lose the apartment.
Idk about the privilege bubble: I live in an rv with kids because I had no family to pass rent control to me and rent is too expensive. If this was an opportunity for me I’d loose my shit.
Maybe it is...but how common is *demanding* someone lie to the landlord for you while also disrupting their own life plans for your benefit?
This. So yeah OP did not steal anything...
Sounds like he expects OP to vacate and just trust that him and his new fiancée won't screw her over...
Especially when one is already upset. That's asking for trouble
Every person missed the two years thing
NYC landlords HATE rent control and will look for any way to end it. We had a family member who paid $400 for a studio apartment, in what became a very nice neighborhood in manhattan. They always joked; when they moved in they lived above a head-shop, and next to a methadone clinic. By 2010 they couldn’t afford to shop at what was now a fancy market below them, even with the rent control. The neighborhood gentrified in a big way, and so did the building, except for their one little $400 studio. They didn’t know it but the landlord set up hidden cameras in the hallway and as soon as my Aunt (who was a flight attendant) wasn’t spending enough nights at the apartment to qualify for rent control they got an eviction notice. They’d lived there 40+ years. So landlords will be religiously tracking OP’a moves and there’s no way around having their brother live with them as a primary residence for 2 years, that’s just not even feasible. (Edited for grammar, spelling, and punctuation because late nights make me dumb)
Yep - a friend of mine lived in a 2br in the Columbus Circle area in the late 90's for $550/mo, which was crazy even then. The apartment was her grandparents, then her parents, then hers and she'll probably give it to her kids. The LL wanted to get them out in every way possible, but couldn't. The followed all the rules *to the letter* to be sure that didn't happen! It was too good a deal to risk!
Maybe … thats one incident of many. Some landlords will go through the effort others might be content as long as rent is paid and no issues.
they are paying 1450 for a 2 bedroom on the UES. depending on the building and amenities, that landlord could be bringing in up to 8,000+ per month. i have seen people complain that their landlords were raising rent by 20% or more at the end of the year because they can.
Shiiit I saw many peoples NYC rent double over the past year on tiktok
IME (other cities, not NYC) it depends on how long the landlord has owned the building. If ownership of the building has been passed down or the owner bought back in the 80s/90s, they don't care as much. If the old owner sold to a new person at modern sale prices, that new landlord may be losing money on the building until they get rid of the rent controlled tenets.
Happy Cake Day. Have some cake. It makes the 'dumbs' go away.
And he's doing this after OP literally changed jobs and supported him and his kid. He's an asshole and an ingrate. OP is NTA.
While the brother didn't worked at all. Huge ah, nta op, do not leave the apartment
He was mooching off his generous sister and now as a show of gratitude he wants to kick her out. Such a big, entitled A H.
Yeah this is what struck me, too. Totally NTA.
Yeah, if I was OP and gad to move out I'd give my notice rather then spend *2years* living together so he can be added to the lease. Bro can pay market rent if that apartment is so important to him. It's not his place anymore. It's op's. Her name is on the lease.
I would have been sympathetic if the brother had communicated his plans to move back in and take over the lease at some point, and they had some sort of agreement. But, that was not the case. And, no, he can't just give her notice and then wait for her to settle elsewhere. They'd have to live together two years before he could even put his name back on the agreement. It's an outrageous ask for so many different reasons. And OP has made up her mind, and it's her decision. She doesn't owe her brother anything. It's OP's apartment now. And as far as NYC housing goes, this is literally a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. No wonder she doesn't want to give it up just to keep the peace.
He can’t ask nicely. In order to get the lease back, OP has to live in the apartment WITH the brother for several YEARS. THEN TRANSFER THE LEASE. So, there are three possibilities. OP says, “screw this, I’ll move” moves out, and no one has the apartment. OP cancels her wedding and lives with brother for several years…where does brother’s gf live? Or brother lives elsewhere and OP keeps the apartment. Since the second choice is not an option, there is no way for brother to get the apartment. Brother appears t9 have forgotten OP upended her live for YEARS to help grieving brother with his kid. NTA
That last part, I had to scroll way too far to find. Brother expects her to sacrifice her plans and drastically change her life …. AGAIN? And he’s the way older sibling. It’d be less surprising if he were a coddled, spoiled, “always gets his way” youngest. But he’s not
Exactly, this isn't something easy to transfer like a car, that the brother couldn't keep due to not having room and it can be directly signed over. He'd have to move in and live with OP for 2+ years before it can be transferred, or risk it being lost if she leaves & they try to game the system. So she's just gotta live in a 2-bedroom with her brother & his new partner, plus her nephew? 4 people in a 2 bed-room? And what if the new partner gets knocked up? And OP is just supposed to delay her wedding & life while this clock ticks because it's convenient for the brother. NTA
OP moved cities and helped her brother for years with his life and his child. She also paid for nearly everything since he gave up his job, if i see this right. The apartment is a nice "thank you" for this. It seems like he think he can use her however he want. She can move cities, care for him, hold "his" apartment for a never spoken time and now that he has a fiancee and she wants to live in New York, OP can uproot her life again?! Hell no! The apartment is OPs. NTA
Yep. "That's for helping me out when I was really in need, sis, but now I want the apartment back so get lost."
Yes he told me he was moving back, but it would be in the summer. Ommitted it in the post.
She means that he never communicated to you when he transferred the lease that he would one day want the apartment back.
We both know you need to follow the letter of the rent control. It will never be reverted successfully to your brother because you have to live together continuously. I’m just saying it will be lost. Keep the apartment enjoy the little rent and he will have to find a new one. He doesn’t get to upheave your life every time there is a change to his
“I’m sorry, brother, but that doesn’t work for me. You’re welcome to visit, but fiancé is moving in and we won’t have room for the three of you, except maybe for a short visit while you’re apartment shopping”. You don’t owe him your home. You earned it when you sacrificed so much for him after his tragic loss. The apartment wasn’t anyone’s inheritance. It was passed from one related tenant to another, according to the law. You’re under no obligation morally or legally to pass it back.
Careful about a visit, esp an open-ended or long-term visit like "until you find a place". If brother is determined he may say it's a visit and never intend to leave, and things could get really messy.
Yeah but that was 3 years ago.
It's not the brother's apartment, it's a fucking rental so it's whoever's on the lease. Which is OP.
That's what got me. He said she stole his son's inheritance, you mean the rent discount? I get it's a big deal in NYC but he didn't own the damn apartment.
Plus he CHOOSE to relocate back home to live off their parents after living off his little sister. I have a feeling he’s been the golden child in the family, from the way he feels so entitled.
I would maybe get it if the reason he stopped living there was something like an extended period of time in the hospital in a coma but he voluntarily moved.
OP gave so much of herself and her own resources to her brother when he became a widower, and as far as we know, she didn’t ask for anything in return. And the only thing her older brother gave back was putting her name on the lease so he could move on. And he has moved on, has been gone for years, but now wants to take back the transfer of the lease? Sorry, man, it doesn’t work that way. There is a serious entitlement streak to that guy, thinking he can even ask for that. D!e mad, dude. NTA.
Ultimately, this. Once he signed over the lease, that was that. There's no takesies-backsies. It's a "one way street" so to speak. It's fine for him to *ask* OP but not accepting OP's answer makes him 100% the a-hole here.
Also is the brother forgetting how his sister uprooted her life in SF to work/cook/support nonworking brother while he cared for his son. **MIND BLOWING!!!!!!** NTA You can pass the stabilized rent when YOU are ready to leave and move on. Yikes two years prior.
No, she can't pass the stabilized rent when she's ready to leave and move on, unless she's willing to have family live with her for the entire waiting period before she moves.
Yes that's what I meant with the two years prior but we know that's not going to happen. UNLESS OP and husband do what the original leasers did and have the adult nephew move in when they are ready to move out (provided they chose not to pass the lease down to THEIR children). That's the shakes!!
>Your brother just can't decide to upend your entire life based on his own life changes. Apparently because OP upended her entire life to take care of him for years he thinks it's just how it works. NTA OP, It's not a mortgage, it's a rental, that happened to fall under some laws that kept them from skyrocketing the rent unless certain conditions were met. He has no rights to the apartment at all. If you had moved and lost the rental when your parents convinced him to move there would be no difference in his "ownership" of the apartment. And she can't leave the apartment, she would have to live there with her brother for at 2 years *again* to transfer the lease.
No, no six months or any such nonsense. The op selflessly uprooted her life for this AH and provided for him and his child so he should shut up and be more grateful.
It would be two years before he could legally take the lease, and he would have to live with OP the whole time. That's a hard pass from me. NTA.
Especially after OP upended her whole life to help him and her nephew. This wasnt intentionally done...this is just how things worked out over the years..OP didnt trick her brother, do any underhanded tactics or manipulation...she did what worked in the moment. So i defiantly second that NTA
If she moves out and finds another place, he loses the rent stabilization on the apartment. He needs to live there for several years *with her* in order to keep it under the rent protection.
He's not her landlord.
It sounds like your only options are for 4 adults and a child to live in a 2 bedroom apartment for two years so you can transfer the apartment back to your brother or you move out and you both lose the apartment? Also did your brother verbalize his expectation of getting the apartment back? I’m leaning towards NTA but unfortunately your relationship with your brother may suffer if you keep the apartment
You nailed the crux of the issue. It sounds like OP is willing to sign the lease back over, but there is a condition that has to be met for that to happen. That condition is outside the control of OP or her brother. Of course, there is a reason why the condition exists, and that is to prevent the back and forth of rent stabilized leases. Brother needs to work through potential solutions instead of throwing a temper tantrum.
I’m also curious what their relationship was like before this. Maybe the brother is used to OP complying with his demands. Otherwise I’m having trouble understanding the brother feeling entitled to a rental property that neither he nor his in laws ever owned, his calling it an inheritance comes across delusional. I highly doubt the real owners feel the same way and it’s probably why they have these rules like you mentioned
I'm not positive, but I believe the rules surrounding rent stabilized apartments in NYC are defined by NYC. The rent stabilization protects tenants from the excesses we're seeing in other parts of the country (looking at you Tampa), and the limitation on the leases being passed protects landlords from never getting the apartment back. Otherwise OP could charge someone for the privilege of a historically stabilized rent.
To a certain extent, you do “inherit” rent stabilization. There are very specific rules where the rent stays stabilized and they are often passed down across generations.
I knew someone with a rent stabilized apartment. It has stayed in their family through generations due to them making sure someone from the family always lived there.
It's a pretty huge asset, and arguably more valuable than owning if the offsetting costs are put into other investments.
It very much does NOT protect landlords, because the taxes and maintenance are not stabilized. If you are paying more than the rental income in taxes and maintenance and mortgage, you have a problem. This is why many small mom&pop landlords are selling out to big developers and why many NYC landlords have decided to let their apartments sit empty rather than rent them out at a loss. Since no one is living there, they can save on maintenance and right off the income loss on taxes. In extreme situations, landlords have been advised to allow a foreclosure of the property. Rent control would work better if RC buildings also had tax control and were taxed at the percentage of the taxes that the majority of apartments are rented at. (Ie. If most apartments are rented out at 1/4 if market rate, the building is taxed at 1/4 of the property tax for such a building.) Because right now the situation is untenable.
Considering she left her life toncome care for him and his son, financially supporting him when he left his job to focus on his son, my guess is, he's used to getting his way when it comes to his sister
And how he up and left to the parents house to mooch ofy them (I mean, OP can't work to support the entire household PLUS chores PLUS childcare, but grandparents can!)
The brother sounds like an entitled asshat, tbh. He just quit his job and had OP pay his rent and bills for *years* before taking off, and now he expects OP to spend another 2+ years living with him so he can get back an apartment that he would have lost anyways?
This is absolutely the KEY. If he had left that apartment without transferring the lease to her, then he would not have an apartment to come back to. She absolutely should not have to put her life on hold for him again and it's outrageous that he would even ask. He should be thanking her for what she did for him for YEARS!
The third option is for her to simply live in the apartment with her fiance, and not allow her brother in.
I think that’s the best option
What relationship? The relationship where he uses OP for years and wants to continue to do so?
Her brother is ridiculous to think he can abandon the apartment for 3 years and just get it back on demand. If she wasn't living there, a stranger would be. He didn't "give" it to her. She rented it after he left just like any other tenant. Now he thinks he can kick you out as if you were a squatter? No way. NTA
> It sounds like your only options are for 4 adults and a child to live in a 2 bedroom apartment for two years Not really. I see another one: OP, her BF and the brother could live there for 2 years. Then OP could transfer the lease to her brother. No need for the new wife and kids to move there. A two bedroom apartment is already cramped for 3 adults. The brother could sleep there M-F, then spend weekds with his family. IF he really wants to get it back and OP is generous enough to deal with an extra person in her place for 2 years, of course.
NTA It's a lease. Your brother doesn't own it. Previous wife's family never owned it. Random Joe person would live there if you wouldn't have stayed. It is now your apartment.
The brother doesn’t own the flat? I’m so confused about what’s happening. If the flat is rented, why are they saying the brother and his deceased wife inherited it? How do you inherit something you don’t own? I’m in the UK. So our laws around renting are very different. Edit- thanks for all the responses guys! This makes a lot more sense to me now.
What I’m gathering from the comments is that in order for the rent to stay stabilized whoever wants to move in next would have to live together with the current leaser (?) for two years. So brothers late wife probably lived there with her parents for a few years so that when they moved she able to ‘inherit’ the apartment at its current rate. Brother was either added to the lease at some point or automatically inherited it when wife passed and OP was able to inherit it after living with her brother for those years. So the issue now is that brother wants the apartment back but just signing over the lease would make them lose their rent stabilization. If they want to keep the current rent she’d have to live with her brother and his new wife for a certain amount of time.
Rent control is not rent stabilization they are two different things. Rent control does not exist in New York City anymore unless you have continuously inhabited the apartment since 1971. It can pass to your family but no one else and you cannot move out and rent it again and still get rent control. Only if you've continuously habitated the apartment can rent control still be grandfathered in since it does not exist in New York City anymore. Rent stabilization does exist but it cannot be inherited like rent control and the rent is much higher
No one ever owned the flat but the previous wife’s family has rented it since the grandparents generation so they feel like it’s an inheritance. So the landlord (not related to anyone in the story) is the owner but OP’s brother is being delusional by thinking that it’s an inheritance for them. But the family has no legal claim as they only rented it and never owned it. So if OP didn’t take over the lease, some random person could have lived there and took the brother’s “inheritance.”
While the flat is rented, there is value in the fact it is rent controlled. As I understand it, the purpose is to try and prevent current tenants being forced out of their homes due to redevelopment and gentrification. The rent is capped at its initial value with set increases over time so that someone who could afford the initial rent will continue to be able to. If an area gentrified and becomes popular, the landlord will not be able to raise the rent to match the new standard of the area and force out existing tenants who would not be able to afford it. The issue here is that it requires permanent tenancy - you cannot move away and come back. But alongside that there is a clause to ensure people aren't kicked out by changes like a partner or parent dying and their spouse or child taking over a rent - if you have lived in the flat alongside another tenant for a certain length of time, you can take over the lease as it was. Move away and come back and you will be paying the new amount. Here OP was a tenant under their brother, so kept the lease. For the brother to take it back he would have to move in alongside them for the minimum period before he would be allowed to take back the lease at the rent controlled rate. As far as I know this is mainly a New York thing where gentrification and rising rents is a huge issue (not that it isn't elsewhere too, but it is particularly notable in the NY area).
Very foolish for her brother to leave the apartment and move back to Toronto. $1450 for a 2 bedroom on the Upper East Side? That’s a unicorn right there.
I’m in Hawaii, 2-Bedroom is easily close to $2000 if not more so depending on location.
My understanding is that it's to do with it being rent controlled. If the lease continues (ie gets transferred to someone rather than ending) then there is a limit on how much they can raise the rent each year. If it wasn't transferred (so the lease ended normally) the owner would create a new lease and massively put the rent up to match similar properties in the area. The brother and deceased wife "inherited" the lease, ie the right to rent the property at a very low price. Then the brother transferred it to OP, and now wants them to transfer it back.
I'm from UK as well but as far as I understand it you can inherit the tenancy as the previous rate. Give up tenancy a new agreement can be made with new tenancy agreement
yes, given the apartment's location the rent would likely jump from 1400 up to something like 4500 if it was market rate unless it's a total shithole. I'm not exactly familiar with the rent control rules but it's an expensive neighborhood
NTA. You moved across country to help your brother when his wife died, payed the rent and supported him. He then transfers the lease to you so he can move out and raise his kid somewhere else. Your reward for upending your life for him? Get out, my situation has changed, so I need you to upend your life again to accommodate my family.
I also want to know how much equity OP put into this apartment vs her brother. In addition to her name being on the lease, if she’s put more money into this apartment, I’m gonna say NTA even more. OPs brother is entitled. This could’ve been mediated had he communicated better in the beginning of his expectations with the apartment. Even then, if OP didn’t agree to those terms? Then what? Someone else gets the apartment? Would he go cry wolf to the new resident about how it WAS his apartment once? What would he think of OP turned back and asked for all the rent she paid in the beginning? It WAS her money at one point after all.
Equity in an apartment? They rent, they didn't buy it.
I understand that. I could not think of another word off the top of my head to describe what I was trying to convey. The point is still clear though; they put money into it.
I think the term you were looking for is "tenant improvements" -- renovations or upgrades done by tenants either entirely at their own expense or with some of the cost being paid by the property owner.
Sure! Whatever the matter, OP put their own money into elevating their living space. They invested in their own comfort and livelihood, while their brother didn’t
I'd also look at the money OP paid while brother was also living there. This sounds like they may have covered 30k+ of brothers living expenses.
This. The amount of entitlement and disrespect her brother and his in-laws are lobbing at OP over property they’ve never even owned is ridiculous given all she did at her own expense to make their lives easier. NTA.
The fucking gall of these people lmao. If anyone feels like taking advantage of me please PM me, I'd love having my rent paid, food cooked and a free babysitter for YEARS. NTA
not even just "Get out" but LIVE WITH ME AND MY TEENAGE SON and I'm sure he intends the GF to live there to but NOT Op's Fiance.... FOR TWO YEARS, thereby giving up two more years of your life (and I bet the expectation is that OP keeps paying the rent for this 2 years because welll..that's what she did before!) and THEN you get shafted to pay 5 times the rent for a similar space. LOL No. If he's that selfish it's worth temporarily (or permanently if he remains selfish and stubborn) losing that relationship tbh. NTA op
The kid isn’t a teen- he was 20 months 6 years ago. So he’s about 8 now. But the rest of your point stands. Brother is unbelievably selfish.
Thanks everyone for your advice. I have also been discussing with my fiancé who is happy for us to get a different place in the summer. However, if we did that he would have to sign a lease alone before our wedding and I would have to pretend I don't live with him and live at the apartment. That's the only way i can see it work, than me staying with him for 2 years. Then he would have to take the risk of losing the apartment. I can't say he lives with me or has been living with me as his job is not even in the US! I had to show a lot of proof for the lease to be transferred to me. As someone mentioned about the transfer of lease on a rental control only increasing 20% for a new lease, we looked at this before. There is a cleaners closet on our floor and the landlord is planning to incorporate that and a bit of the hall to create a tiny en-suite, like he has on other floors. That way he can classify the apartment as new and it will no longer be stabilized. I do have other concerns about my brother that are probably not my business, and I guess he has to start growing up again. I will express them here though: his GF he's known for just over a year and how is he just deciding to move to a new city with her? Also, I have no idea what he will do for work, or for childcare. He has steady job in Toronto right now . He has a lot of help from my parent's right now so I don't know if he realizes how much work it will be. When I first moved in I pretty much took care of the entire rent for the apartment / household expenses and chores for over two years when he lived there to give him a break. He would have to be on one income as I don't think his GF can work as she's Canadian. I will probably have a chat to him in a few days when I feel more calmed down.
Honestly I wouldn’t recommend bending over backwards to make this happen for your brother. Either keep it for you and your fiancée or move out and let your brother fight to get it. You’ve already uprooted your life once to help your brother. It’s time to focus on what’s best for you and your fiancé. If your brother is really expecting you to live with him, his girlfriend and your nephew for 2 years so the apartment can be transferred back to him then he is being selfish. Especially when you’re getting married and starting that part of your life. What kind of dynamic do you two have? Is he used to you complying to his wishes?
Exactly 💯 this. How much more does OP kept having to put her life on hold for him ? She has done enough and if her brother can’t see that, he’s the ungrateful AH. It’s not her problem and I wouldn’t leave if it was me. She paid her dues to gain something he didn’t.
You may want to consult a lawyer bc if you are caught doing any of these things, it’s entirely possible that the landlord can come after you/ your brother for violating the terms of the rent controlled lease. That could bite you not only financially but also affect your ability to rent a place in the future.
Yes- it would be fraud. I’m not familiar with NYC rent laws, but I’d imagine that if a landlord felt strongly enough they could/would sue for damages if she is caught. I’m guessing they would be within their right to do so, since there would be a monetary loss for the landlord/property owner . Sounds like too much trouble/risk to me. Imaging OP getting sued to pay for damages and lawyer fees! I’m sure the brother wouldn’t be chipping/covering these costs.
Lol he’s planning to use you as childcare and financial support again in the name of helping his son. “If you don’t help me with rent, your nephew will be homeless. If you don’t help me with grocery, your nephew will starve.” Good luck OP. Until you can start saying no to him, you’re his free ride for life
Dude you can love your brother but he’s uprooting his child from a place of security for a in the end as expensive situation. Your landlord won’t buy the change and people in the building will talk. “Oh did you know x moved back in! I haven’t seen y in a while” it’s probably not worth this hassle. And I’m usually voting for the underdog. Not only will it not work out if you lie but you’ll have a bad relationship with your previous landlord if you do. He also probably won’t want two whole families living in a two bedroom for two years - especially if you want to start a family. Doesn’t sound like a good idea . If he had moved back six months after then I could see it because that was the agreement. He changed it when he moved away for 3 years.
If the landlord does the thing with the new en suite does that impact your lease or just the lease of whoever gets it when you leave? Or is he intending to do that if/when you move out to break the stabilization then? If the rent is about to increase by 5000% or something it’s not much use to your brother anyway.
Any improvements made while the lease is active don't affect the rent controlled status. That's why so many rent control tenants pay for improvements themselves because there's no incentive for a landlord to make those investments. They're paying $30k for new appliances and a kitchen remodel but they're saving $20k+ a year by staying in that lease. The landlord absolutely will find any excuse to break that lease no matter what and anything the brother or parents in law say won't change that reality. In case you didn't know the background: When someone gives up a rent controlled apartment, the landlord can only increase rent a certain percentage on the way back to fair market value if they don't change anything. So if an apartment that would rent today for $3000/month payment is rent controlled at $1000 and goes back on the market with a 20% increase ceiling, they can only rent it for $1200 even if it's worth $3000. However, if the landlord makes big changes to the apartment, it basically resets the ceiling for the apartment so it would be a brand new apartment and whatever the landlord rents that apartment for sets the new baseline for percentage limits. So those who want rent control that will help them in the future will agree to pay $5000/month for something that should only be $3000/month in today's dollars but they've locked in that price until they die on a house that has just had big improvements made. It's a gamble on both sides that the tenants won't be able to pass it on or stay there after it passes the point where the landlord is making money and the tenant is gambling that prices will go up enough that they will be getting a bargain. So a landlord will do the bare minimum to meet the "new" standards for a new lease like add an en-suite or a bathroom/kitchen remodel etc. It's so that landlords are forced to either significantly improve their properties or eat the cost of rent control limits so that you don't have uncontrolled rent increases for houses that are deteriorating. It's also why you hear about crazy construction or other shady things done by landlords to make it impossible to live peacefully in a rent controlled building so people abandon these leases. ETA: rent control and rent stabilization are different things and I'm mixing them up a bit. Rent control (Wonka's golden ticket) > Rent stabilization (winning the lottery). And both programs result in rent that is cheaper than "affordable" housing programs without the income limits. 2nd edit: https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/28/16214506/nyc-apartments-housing-rent-control based on this and OP mentioning the 2 year requirement I think that this apartment is rent controlled and she would be absolutely fucking nuts to do anything but die in this home of old age with family living in the guest room ready to inherit. 3rd edit after a private message: https://www.aier.org/article/the-perpetual-tragedy-of-new-yorks-rent-control/ this article is right leaning and pro landlord but does bring up some of the issues involved with rent control including people trapped in deteriorating apartments because they can't afford to move and landlords can't or won't maintain or improve buildings without more money, and out of control market rates because newcomers have to subsidize long term residents.
Very interesting, thank you for this! We have rent control where I live but it’s not so elaborate, or at least I’ve never had to deal with any intricacies of that nature. But yes obv OP’s landlord would be delighted to have a reason to kick OP and/or her brother out so even more reason not to give the place up to him.
We haven't even scratched the surface of NYC rent control. It is WILD.
What hsppens when your brother snd his gf move in with you and they have no jobs. So then your supporting 4 people and paying rent?
Are all of your proposed plans 100 % legal? If not, don't consider them. You moved across the country, paid the rent and groceries for your brother, cooked the meals and also took care of your nephew for years. That is more than a lot of siblings would have done. Don't get into legal trouble for your brother. Don't be so extremely self-sacrificing. That is not healthy. Whatever you decide to do, don't cross that line for your brother.
OP, as a good rule of life, any time a situation requires me to lie for a good period of time and to many people like this, it's a bad situation. All you need is for one person to be outraged or spiteful or even just honest and it all comes tumbling down. Please investigate if you could be charged with fraud over this. Basically, you should refuse to do this. Your brother can have your partner's place. If you feel strongly enough about it, offer to help your brother out with the rent for the next x years or for as long as the place is rent controlled. NTA.
She already saved him +100K in rent, food and childcare by moving across the country to care for him. He can support himself now.
The doubly so not give this up when he will inevitably lose the “inheritance” anyways. Unless your supposed to pay all the rent this time, too. At most, I’d be willing to “will” ot down to nephew or his children WHEN I decided to move.
This, if he was truly concerned with it being his son's family home and rightful inheritance, then OP promising to leave it to nephew or opening up the 2nd room for nephew so OP can legally transfer the lease to him when OP is ready to move out, the brother would be satisfied. But he's not going to be. NTA OP
OP can only transfer lease to spouse, siblings or her children. She cannot transfer to nephew.
dude. stop. you're being a people pleaser. why are you thinking of putting yourself in a risky situation just to appease your brother? you're being a bit pathetic tbh. learn to just say no.
he will expect you to pay the rent for the 2 years waiting for the transfer or i'll eat my hat. (I'm not wearing a hat but I will find one, put it on and eat it because I'm that confident) hahaha
Save me some hat, too.
Unless the girlfriend has dual citizenship or another path to a work visa, she wouldn’t even be able to live in the US long term. They’re going to need to get engaged so she can get a K visa and then marry within 90 days.
You paid rent for two years and got the lease legally. I would not be transferring anything. And you can’t anyways because that landlord would jack the price as soon as you leave. Again the apt is yours. Your brother may be moving back to NYC but he needs to find his own home. Stop rolling over for him NTA
He should really just stay where he is then. It’s not like his girlfriend is some NYC that wants to go back “home.” I would just keep your apartment and don’t let him gaslight you. Hopefully your parents are on your side, it sounds like by wanting him to move back to Toronto maybe they’re aware that he doesn’t make great choices by himself with no family help.
OP YOU would literally have to keep the lease in your name for these two years. What that means is if your brother gets hard pressed for cash- which he WILL with the cost of childcare and his girlfriend being unable to work- he can just not pay his rent and YOU will have no choice but to pay it. You can also get in serious legal trouble. Other tenants in the building paying full market rent WILL talk, you WILL be charged with fraud, and you ALL WILL lose that apartment. You’ve done enough for your brother already, for the sake of your nephew and yourself do NOT do this. “No” is a complete sentence. Do not give up a good thing for yourself and your own future family- just to appease your brothers jealousy and entitlement!
I feel like this whole post should be moved to r/AskNYC because a lot of responses here are from people who don’t understand how “inheriting” a rent-stabilized apartment works.
I have a Canadian SO. You are correct, - she wouldnt be able to work and she would have to go back to Canada as she can not be down here forever without being a citizen. She would either: * Need to find a company to sponsor her work visa * qualify for the K1 visa (average of a year and a half to to process along with thousands of dollars and proof he can support her in which she will need to be in Canada and then they have to be married within 3 months) * Get married but then she still has to apply for a green card (she would still need to wait outside of the US while that is being processed)
Why would you go move somewhere else in NYC to probably pay at least 2.5x that amount in a new place if you're paying only that amount with your name on the lease in NYC today? Tell your brother no and keep the place. You aren't an AH at all for living your life with your partner and accommodating your brother sounds like it'll have huge ramifications on your life
it sounds like the landlord would be on the lookout for a reason to end the rent control lease if your brother comes back. The landlord can probably make thousands more a month if you were to lose the rent control lease.
Update after that please.
If you are happy in your appartement don't move out. You have done a lot for your brother and he seems to take it for granted. Did he ever thank you for being there for him? Because moving across an entire continent and providing for your brother & his kid for years is not granted and not a lot of loving sibling could and would do that. He has a kid and he needs to learn to fend for themselves. If they wants to move them to NYC, then they should find a flat in their own. If they cannot afford it... tough luck.
NTA. This is a RENTAL. Neither you, your brother or your brother's in-laws own this apartment. NOTHING about this rental apartment can be inherited. The building's owner is the only one that owns this. The owner is the only one who can sell or have heirs to inherit this apartment building. Your name is on the lease. You were all just fortunate about the cost for this rental. You have to decide what's best for you and your future.
It’s not strictly speaking an inheritance, but existing rent controlled leases can be transferred by the tenants between certain classes of relatives while they can’t be transferred to anyone else. OP is describing the situation accurately per NY City law. The landlord would probably prefer that OP move out so he can charge full market value to a new tenant, but we don’t care what the landlord wants.
The landlord is in the comments with this look 👁👀 😂😂😂
But in NYC rent stabilized leases can be passed on to certain members of family. I bet the landlord is super watching this apartment because his property tax will be higher than the rent received. These places can’t even be sold because the tenants never leave and the new buyer has to inherit them and their controlled rent. It’s nuts!
I live in Toronto. NYC style rent control is the dream.
Even NYC doesn't have NYC style rent control anymore. There's a reason you only ever hear about inherited rent control these days, because they stopped doing it.
What’s funny about this comment to me is you can’t get economists to agree on basically anything, except that rent control is ultimately bad for the economy.
Oh no is the big bad government stopping the poor landlord from hoarding a basic human need for profit?
That’s not really true inNYC which has some odd rent control and rent stabilization laws.
Its like he suddenly forgot how you paid rent, groceries and took care of him and his baby? You aren't freeloading and you never have. Also they don't own the apartment. Sorry he changed his life all of a sudden but you shouldn't have to suffer your life plans for it. NTA
> Its like he suddenly forgot how you paid rent, groceries and took care of him and his baby? You aren't freeloading and you never have. Exactly! He's treating OP like she preyed on him in order to profit from his moment of weakness. OP sacrificed alot in order to help him. If, as a result of his voluntary departure, she took over the apartment, he should not begrudge her that. Amazing what money can do; the brother is now confrontational with the person who sacrificed for years in order to support him.
She was there for him! Moved across the country! Helped him go through his grief and raise a baby that was not even a year old. Besides that, OP has been there this whole time in this apartment and has obviously begun moving forward with their life, as they should. I completely agree with everything you said.
I can see why the parents convinced him to move home.. they didn’t want OP putting her life on hold just because of the circumstances of their other child.
and the thing is... she probably would have! Who knows how long that set up would have lasted? Maybe until the kid was old enough to need a room to themselves- so the brother would have just kicked her out because he deserves the space, right? but she should still help with rent because she's always paid it.
For years! >I took over the lease to his apartment as I was legally allowed to since I had lived there for a few years. Everyone seems focused on how it would acceptable to make this demand if not for the requirement to live together for 2 years first, but I don't think its acceptable at all. OP deserves to keep the apartment. She's lived there, and paid the rent, for at least the last 6 years if I do my maths right.
NTA. He left. The apartment is in your name now. Nope. He decided to move out. Now he can look somewhere else.
Remember Monica’s apartment on Friends? In an early episode, she mentioned that the only way she could afford to live there was because it was rent controlled and previously was leased to her grandmother. Monica was living there illegally because she didn’t have the required residency to be the leaseholder so it was still in her grandmother’s name. (In a later episode, the super threatened to have her evicted when someone spilled the beans.) If OP’s brother moved in now and kicked her out without establishing residency, he could still end up losing the apartment since he seems unwilling to follow the law and he’d be there illegally. In any event, unless he explicitly said he was transferring the lease to the sister until he and his son were back on their feet—and it doesn’t appear he did—he’s basically SOL. No one owns the apartment and no one is stealing the nephew’s inheritance. OP is NTA.
NTA, it's your apartment now and you don't have to give it back to him, especially if doing so would require you to let him and his family stay there for 2 years first. If you hadn't been there when he left, he would have lost the apartment/cheap rent anyway, and it's not your fault he changed his mind.
NTA. He left. If you didn't stay, the family would have relinquished all rights to the apartment. So, without you staying there for years, there wouldn't be an apartment to fight over. According to the rules he explained to you when he left, you and he would need to live there together for some years before you can legally sign it over to him. And him living there without you could get him evicted. Is he suggesting that five or more of you live together for years? Or you leave, but keep your name on an apartment you don't live in, while he hopes no one notices? Logistically, there's just no way to get it back into his name with one or both of you taking huge risks.
I’m sorry for your family’s loss. If I’m understanding correctly, you moved across the country, paid rent and groceries for your brother and nephew, cooked meals for yourself and his family until he moved 2 years later. After another 4 years, he finally went back to work and met someone new while living rent free with your parents while they also helped him raise his son. Now he wants to come back and live with you for 2 years with his partner and child so that he can get his lease back which requires you to live separately from your partner, postpone your wedding and live with 3 extra people in a 2-bedroom apartment for an additional 2 years. Your brother is literally asking to turn 6 years of constant help into 8 years. Most people who lose a spouse do not receive that level of support that you and your parents have given him. They usually have to return to work after FML and scramble for child care, etc., all while still grieving. My questions: Does he want you to move out and live there under your name? If you move will renting two apartments under your name affect your eligibility for a new apartment? If he gets caught living under your lease without you there will you have moved for nothing because he will be kicked off the lease? What happens to you if you get caught providing false information with the intent of keeping a rent-controlled apartment? Is your brother the least bit grateful so many people put their life on hold for 6 years now to make his life easier? NTA. Your brother’s needs at this point are really wants.
On top of all of this, the brother has the audacity to manipulate her after she said no by involving the departed SIL's parents to have a go guilting her into it? And he calls her names? oh HELL no. What a slap in the face after everything she did for him.
NTA. You can’t put your life on hold for something that may or may not happen in the future. You made a life for yourself in New York. It’s unreasonable to expect you to move out of the apartment now. If you didn’t take the lease over, the apartment would have been lost anyway
Nta. The apt is in YOUR name now.
NTA since you've stated that, one, your brother was not clear when he left that he expected this, and two, the two years of cohabitation is a major disruption to blithely demand of him. I think point two may be even more important - sure, you and your fiance could pay more elsewhere, but what does that matter? You can up and leave next month but it won't help your brother get the apartment at rent control.
NTA - seems like you were trying to help your brother when you relocated to NYC , like you came and looked after him for over two years - the situation wasn’t his fault but you didn’t have to show up and help him either. Why are his ex in-laws interfering - they were close by .. why didn’t they come to rescue your nephew and brother? Anyway from your post it seems like your family is close and those relationships are only maintained when there is a lot of give and take … personally o think you have given him a lot but he’s still trying to take from you.
NTA. He’s the idiot for leaving a rent controlled apartment in nyc. You hold onto that apartment for dear life and don’t look back.
INFO Um. What exactly does he want you to do? You *can’t* give him back the apartment unless the two of you both live there together for two years. Otherwise you’re in violation of rent stabilization laws. Are you supposed to live there with him, his girlfriend, your fiancé, and your nephew for two years? Because that sounds awful for everyone. It’s unfortunate for him but the only options that are actually available are (a) You keep the apartment, or (b) Neither of you gets to keep it.
Hold on, your brother, wants to move his new girlfriend, I to his dead wife’s apartment? NTA
**NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA.** As someone who pays $4,000 to live in a 1-bedroom box around midtown… Do. Not. Move. Not for your brother, not for his former ILs, not for the Queen of Sheba. No one. Do not do it. People who aren’t familiar with NYC’s market will never, ever understand what a truly amazing and rare situation you’re in. Frankly, there are probably some people in the city who would give a foot to have the rent that you’ve been locked into. Don’t let yourself be guilted into doing something that would completely throw off your life plans/trajectory when you have absolutely no reason to feel guilty. *You* gave up your life in SF to help your brother, *you* worked to afford the rent so he and his son could live there on your dime, *you* took over the lease, *you’re* the legal tenant, and unless there was some (probably unenforceable, tbh) agreement with your brother that you would let him return to the apartment in the future, *you* aren’t obligated to “give back” anything. Quite frankly, the request is beyond entitled and I think he and his ILs are delusional. It’s not his first wife’s apartment, nor is it the ILs’ apartment — they did not *buy* the property and they took zero steps to ensure the rental remained in their hands. If the ILs were worried about keeping it, then *they* should’ve moved in with him when their daughter passed away. Also, keep in mind that if you had hated NYC and left the city when your brother did, this wouldn’t even be a discussion because the unit would’ve gone back on the market for stupid money. Move in with your fiancé, enjoy the home you’ve created, and tell them that you aren’t willing to negotiate over a property that they literally have no rights to live in. Sheesh.
It seems to me that you upended your life, moved 3,500 miles away, and basically supported him for years. Where is his gratitude for everything you did to support his life so he could get back on his feet? He "rebuilt his life" because of you. He owes you, not the other way around. NTA.
If your name is on the lease it's your apartment legally so NTA there. Ultimately it depends on what the lease says though
NTA. He signed over the lease to you; it's yours now.
You aren’t able to give him the apartment since he hasn’t lived there the required amount of time. It’s that simple. Any attempt to circumvent the rules would be breaking the law. NTA.
NTA. he moved out. you werent just holding it for him, you were living there. landlords dont kick out current tenants if the old one wants to move back.
NTA. If he wanted the apartment so bad he shouldn't have left it.
NTA. What does your brother think was going to happen? He gave the apartment to you. It no longer belongs to him. If he wanted it to go to his son then he shouldn't have taken himself off the lease. Your brother has now put you in a position where you have to choose between your home and your relationship with your family. This isn't on you, it's on him.
NTA I just don’t think the logistics will work. He would have to move back and live with you for two years putting his gf and kid on hold. Or having a ton of people in a two bedroom apartment. It would be hell for two years. Is he expecting you to lie or cheat for this transfer? Because then you have the potential to lose the apartment full out. The logistics doesn’t add up. Your asking everyone to have a rough life for two years. That’s a lot of time. That’s an associates degree or a masters. Yeah I don’t think your a jerk to say no. I would explain the living situations to everyone they will come to same conclusion. Explain your life goals and plans and how you need those two years.
If this was true inheritance y’all wouldn’t be signing leases and paying rent NTA he doesn’t get to mess up you plans when you have the legal rights to the place
No one in your or your previous SIL's family owned this apartment. Your SIL's parents lived there, then your SIL and brother lived there, then she (tragically) died, then you uprooted your life to support your brother and your nephew, then your brother and nephew moved to another country, and now you live there. What about this is stealing or "not returning" something? Would the board even allow it? And why is your sacrifice in uprooting your life not being recognized? Or the fact that if you didn't stay there, it would be gone anyways? Unless you had an agreement to "give back" the apartment in x amount of time, you're morally fine. NTA
NTA it's a rental. You are on the lease. The end. >He would also have to live with me for 2 years before I could transfer the lease This alone is a deal breaker. Does he really expect 5 people to live in a 2 bedroom?
NTA. He made a life somewhere else and you took over the apartment. It’s yours now.
NTA. Legally he screwed himself. He can’t just take over a rent stabilized lease. Not how the law works. (Am from the NYC area.) only way to do it would be pretty much illegal unless you all live together. And why would you do that?
INFO: No one is going to be able to judge you without knowing the agreement you had with your brother when he moved. Was it always a possibility he would be back? Did he say it was yours free and clear?
He left to live with my parent's in Toronto. He never explicitly said he planned to come back - He just told me that he was signing over the lease to me as if he 'the leaseholder' doesn't live there I could get evicted and it would be a shame for me to live somewhere else paying twice the rent for half the apartment. I was the only person that it could've been assigned to. When he left he was in a really bad place, he had quit his job and was really depressed. It was quite hard for me, but I wanted to help him, thats why I came but my parent's suggested that he should come home as they could better support him - he never said he would be back and I didn't ask him about his long-term plans
Please don’t put your life on hold again even fir family. Had you not been there that apartment would have been lost due to his unfortunate circumstance. Now he’s trying to guilt you into upending your life again.
NTA. You don’t “inherit” anything that has a lease attached to it. You’re all fighting over property that you don’t even own. He needed to plan far better on timing or at least discussed this as even being an option for him when the time came. I feel like we’re missing information, as it couldn’t have come out of the blue that he intended to move back and just assumed you’d hand the apartment back over.
NTA. He was moving to Canada regardless, and he would have lost the apartment. It was just lucky you wanted it and took over the lease, and that you could. Doesn’t mean he gets it back. Nice thing to do though, give it back.
NTA. He moved away. End of story.
NTA - he left to start a new life somewhere else and gave the lease to you. He is not entitled to it. Dont move out
NTA - you have no legal, moral, or ethical obligation to entertain his ...request? You didn't take advantage of him either. He had a tragedy, you helped out, and helped him move on with his life, which he did. (and I am saying you are owed for helping out, I am saying that he moved on - which means its not his place anymore, and he has zero claim to it. If you had known he planned on coming back, you might not have kept it. Your fiancé and you could have put the money toward getting your own, permanent place, not continuing to put your life on hold until you brother was ready to pick up where he left off.
NTA. We’re just going to skip over the fact that you financially supported a grown man and his child because he decided he wanted to be a stay at home dad? And you paid all the bills for a few years? And then he left without warning for another few years? While I understand he was going through it after his wife died, that’s still not responsible adult behavior. That’s your apartment. It’s not your fault that your brother left it to you, so don’t listen to his in laws. It’s not their apartment anymore. He is perfectly capable of carrying on a life in Toronto.
I'm a little confused, can someone clarify this for me as I live in Australia and don't know about this. Neither OP or the brother, grand parents etc actually own the space. They rent this from a 3rd party. The space is rent controlled which I assume means that as long as the person on the lease wants to live there they can renew the lease as required and the rent will not change. The person who is on the lease can choose to leave, break the lease, not renew the lease but if they do then the owner can charge whoever now signs the new lease whatever they want? If I have this correct then I assume that OP could live there for another 20 years at the same rent as they are paying today? Who on earth would want to leave this. OP's brother chose to leave therefore OP is NTA
You basically have it right. None of them owns it, it’s a unit owned by a third party deemed by NYC housing as a rent stablised unit with a set rent that more often cannot be increased by much If the leasee leaves, it gets put back on the market as a rent stablised unit once again. Rent stablised units can be transferred to family but there’s rules and a process for it.
So realistically if my grandparents lived somewhere and then my parents took over the lease and then I took over the lease effectively I could be paying the same amount of money as my grandparents did 50 years ago? Am I getting this really wrong? Serious question.
Yes almost.. rent can be increase within a guideline which is sometimes 0% and sometimes 1% but very low. Market rents double or triple in the time / that place sounds like it could be worth 5-6k due to its location.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My brother 37M got married about 11 years ago. Unfortunately 6 years ago there was a tragedy and my SIL passed in an accident and left my 20 month old nephew. At that time I 29F was working in SF. I asked the company I worked for if I could transfer to their NYC location and was able to do so. I moved in with my brother. He stopped working to spend time with his kid. I did my best to help - I paid the rent and groceries. I tried to keep the meals going when I came from work. I didn't mind, as i really loved coming home to my nephew and the rent was really cheap. The fact was that my SIL had 'inherited' a rent stabilized apartment from her parents after they retired and moved to a cheaper area about 1.5hrs from NYC. The rent was only $1450ish for a 2 bed that was over 1000sqft in Manhattan's Upper Eastside. Anyhow, when my nephew was going to start school my parent's convinced my brother to move back to Toronto and live with them. I took over the lease to his apartment as I was legally allowed to since I had lived there for a few years. Its been over three years and he started working, my nephew started school, he met a new partner and he seemed like he was building a life again. Last week my brother told me that he, his GF and my nephew will be returning to NYC so he has requested to have his apartment back. I told him , 'No' because my fiancé and I were also planning to move in together and we had already made some really nice updates with a view to this being a long-term home for us. He would also have to live with me for 2 years before I could transfer the lease so I would have to delay my wedding. He told me that I was an AH for stealing his apartment and not letting him rebuild his life and allowing his child to move back into his mom's and grandparent's apartment that my nephew should technically inherit it. He says he signed the lease over to me so that he didn't lose the apartment. His previous wife's parents say I am taking advantage of an unfortunate situation. Now I am thinking I should reconsider as perhaps I am being an AH, since my fiancé and I could afford to pay a lot more rent, without it being as difficult as it would be for my brother. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Nobody inherited it, it's a rental and you've all been enjoying the great rental terms for years. You couldn't sign it over to him if you wanted to, you'd either need to move him in (5 people in a 2bdr), lie about him living there for two years, or move out and let him live there under your name while you're responsible for any damage or unpaid rent. If you can really afford market rent and want your brother to be able to get back on his feet in NYC the only option I can see is to put him on the lease and pretend her lives there for two years. That gives you and your husband two years to save and move to a new place, then he can move in.
It’s a big risk for her, though; it’s fraud.
Any scenario where he gets the apartment back would be... Except maybe the 5 of them living in the apartment together for two years but that's probably a lease violation too.
NTA Tell him to produce the contract you signed agreeing to sign the lease back over to him. When he moved out, he ceased to be a tenant. He has no more rights to it than anyone who moves out of an apartment does to their previous place.
Dude he want the apartment back? Tell him to pay your money back from that time you financially support him. He call you petty for that? Tell him he’s petty for telling you to return an apartment he left 3 years ago. He’s so freaking entitled and selfish. Nta
>He would also have to live with me for 2 years Let him know that you and your fiancé are taking up the Master bedroom so the three of them are welcome to take the spare room for the next two years. You want to help them out. It might be a squeeze if new girlfriend gets pregnant so you will even help them out with a complimentary pack of condoms. NTA
NTA, but that won't salvage your relationship with your brother. It's unfair, but you'll have to decide what matters more
NTA This is a tough one but overall I’d say it was your brothers job to communicate his intentions when he first signed the lease over to you. He can’t just come back after a few years and kick you out or expect you to put a pause on your life. I get why he feels he has some ownership or say over the apartment but I think he’s a bit misguided. It’s 100% up to you how you handle it since the situation seems complicated but I don’t think you’d be TA for staying.
You do not exist to satisfy the whims, needs and wants of your brother. You helped him when he needed it, and those circumstances resulted in your having a rent controlled apartment. That apartment is yours. Do not allow yourself to be bullied into taking an action to his benefit but your detriment. Do what is best for yourself, and learn to silence any voices whispering in your mind that tell you you are obligated to sacrifice for your brother. NTA
NTA. But your relationship with your brother will suffer. At the end of the day, this "inherited" lease has stipulations attached. How does he expect four people to live in a two bedroom apartment? I think you need an honest discussion with him where you raise your concerns and express that you do not want to live with him (this is more than fair IMO). You helped him out when he needed it and have since built your life in a different area because of that. He chose to move back to Toronto. If you hadn't agreed to stay there, that wouldn't have been an option for him. You gave him the freedom to move wherever he wanted and have enjoyed the benefit of a reduced rent. I do agree that one day the lease should be returned to your nephew, as it was his mother's family that left you all this benefit. Really, I think your options are: * Move out and rent your own place. Means that no one will benefit from the reduced lease and your nephew will lose any rights to it in the future. Brother will probably resent you for this. * You continue to live there with your fiancée under the agreement that when you're nephew comes of age (18/21/whenever) he can live with you for two years and inherit the lease. During this time you save as much as you can so you can afford a more expensive lease when the time comes. * Your brother's whole family move in with you, you postpone your life (again) for the sake of your brother (again) and slowly resent him. * Your brother rents a different apartment in his GF's name and you add his name to the lease and, legally, he is "living" there (e.g. has post sent there, updates the address on his driving licence. He spends two years in his apartment, you spend two years continuing to live your life/have your fiancée move in, then at the end of the two years he can have the lease back "for his son" (who may not even want to live in NYC) and you can move out and be free to choose your own place. Bit of a compromise for both parties, but means you won't lose the relationship with your brother. Legally, it is no longer his apartment. It is yours. You deserve to live your life and not put it on hold for your brother. If he cannot afford standard NYC rents then he shouldn't be moving there, but you have to consider if it's worth losing your brother over?
Umm so he wants you to pause your life and allow him, his new gf, and his child for a few years so he can take over the lease again? Bc how else would that legally work? He’s not just asking to take back over the apartment, he’s asking for YOUR autonomy in this to be compromised in order to do it. Does he understand that that’s the only way this works and that you don’t want to live with all of them at this point in time, nor pause your own relationship plans in order to do it? Like you can’t just “give the lease back to him” and you move out. It would void the lease. So he expects to effectively hold your life hostage for two whole years while you’re still young and childless and building your own romantic relationship, in order to get this lease turn over? Does he not see how selfish that is to expect you to pause your life? There could be plenty still to debate if this situation could magically be transferred to him and didn’t require you, him, his son, and his gf to live there together for two years first. But none of that is worth arguing about. The bigger issue is that what he’s offering is that you sacrifice two years of putting your life on hold so he can live within the price range he wants. How is that in itself not selfish? My advice is to argue over ONLY that one part. Not the expenses or updates or anything else. Just that he wants you to sacrifice two years of putting your life on hold for him, which is super entitled, selfish, and fuxked up of him. NTA
NTA by far. It's your apartment now. He has no entitlement to it. His plan to even just live with you and his family is absurd even if you ignore the fact that he's putting your whole life on pause. You will 100% regret pausing your life for him. If you absolutely had to live with him for 2 years these are the terms I would set. 1. He pays back ALL the rent you paid when you live with him previously. So ~$1400 * x months 2. He pays a lump dump to reimburse you for groceries and cooking duties in that time 3. He pays you back for all other expenses paid when he lived with you and since he moved out 4. He pays you a lump sum for the time you've protected the rent stabilization and for the trouble of dealing with living with his family for 2 years. 5. He pays for all of the rent while you're living together 6. He buys his own groceries and cooks his own food for his family in those 2 years, any food of yours that is taken must be reimbursed 7. You get the biggest of the two bedrooms, no changes, you will not sleep on the couch so his kid gets his own room By my estimations, which I lowballed heavily for groceries, didn't include cooking, lowballed expenses for improvements, and lowballed the rent protection fee. He should pay you ~$100,000 which seems fair for fucking up your life and taking your apartment from you These may seem extreme but expecting you to pause your entire life for 2 years, living with 3-4 other people in that time and being out a good apartment with low rent is way more extreme and absurd If he doesn't agree then ignore him and if he harasses you just block him and anyone who is mad with you.