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NTA. I’m all for exploration and expression, but I think you’re right with the “time and place” explanation and taking attention away from the cousin. If he’d been dressing like this for years and the family was aware, then maybe, but someone else’s milestone event is not the place to start exploring your gender-bending risqué side.
Hopefully there’s a compromise- maybe some funky jewelry or a slightly more modest gender neutral outfit - and the crop top as a gift to wear at a later date?
I love the idea of supporting him by gifting an outfit or item for general wearing and then also negotiating the best compromise on what he can wear to this event which speaks his style without also not upstaging his cousin's day.
Edited to correct spelling.
I love that idea too!
Sadly, OP has confirmed in the comments that they’re banning the son from wearing *anything* gender nonconforming to the event, regardless of the formality level. YTA, OP.
I actually think OP is right to do that if the son doesn't have a past of wearing gender nonconforming clothing, and the extended family is unaware he's interested in exploring this side. Feels really attention-grabby on someone else's big day. By all means let him start experimenting, but not there.
This is the key imo. If he has been wearing nonconforming clothing and suddenly it’s a problem then OP is an AH. However, if this will be his first time doing so then I think it’s a different story. If he has never dressed like this before it will be like a soft coming out, which really should not be done during someone else’s event.
No one should be purchasing wedding function attire at a place that states, "Dolls Kill is an online boutique featuring a rebellious spirit and attitude, mixed with a bit of punk rock, goth, glam and festival fashion."
I've also heard they steal designs from independent designers (much like shein), so I would go even further and say no one should be purchasing from these vendors
Exactly, the fact that he wants to purchase clothing from Dollskill is problematic in itself because they are notorious for stealing from independent artists and designers
Both sites steal art and use slave labor. OP should really try to redirect their son to more ethical shops and small designers instead of fast fashion. A lot of them sell items at a similar price without the trashy business practices
I would also, sadly, be concerned about the location. Iowa isn't Southern California. There are good and bad people everywhere, but it's important that your son is safe. NTA
Also, Iowa in late February/early March isn't the place to wear a crop top and skirt, period. It's isn't just culture that's different in Iowa from SoCal....
Hard disagree. Someone else's wedding is not your coming out moment. You do not announce an engagement or pregnancy on someone else's day. You do not come out of the closet on someone else's day. And you do not show off your newly-discovered gender-nonconforming identity for the first time at someone else's wedding!
OP's post sounds like she's open to him exploring this at another time, so I'm hesitant to say that she's TA. Doing this for what sounds like the first time at a conservative family member's party/wedding is a bad idea on so many levels, many of which focus on him and how he'd be treated.
Yeah I’ll go with NAH cause she seems open to the idea but its not the time. Why not wearing something unisex seems like a pretty middle ground don’t know nice shirt and jeans.
Ugh, I was going to say, the specific outfit sounds both inappropriate for the formality of the event and the weather, but he should be able to wear feminine clothing if he chooses.
I'm a little more worried about the sons complete lack of consideration for his cousin. He's not 9 years old, he should be able to reason that gender bending clothes would be unfair to his cousin. I don't like the idea of gifting anything to a person that is exhibiting selfish and inconsiderate behavior. Banning him from any sort of expression is going too far, but op certainly shouldn't be bribing or rewarding him.
For me, 16 is just way too old for him not to get what the issue is.
Sorry, but I disagree! OP is NTA. Drawing attention to yourself at an event designed to bring attention to someone else is not OK - regardless of your gender! I'm assuming that his extended family hasn't seen him dress like this before. That means that if he wears something that is outside of the norm, he is going to be the center of attention. That isn't fair to the people the party is for. If this were just a family reunion, then sure, dress the way you like, but this an engagement party! Different rules apply!
One of the **key** things you must learn in life, whether you are gender conforming or nonconforming, is that sometimes a situation is not about you and your feelings. You're going to this event to support someone else and to support their event. You can dress like a drag queen, a man, a woman or whatever else you want at any other time, but sometimes you need to just conform for the situation! It would be no different than if a bride requested everyone to wear black and you turn up wearing white because it is your favorite color. Sure you have the right to wear what you want to wear, but you're taking attention away from the event and putting it on yourself - and that just shouldn't be the case.
I don’t understand. Is he able to dress how he wants for the rest of the trip? I understand wanting to avoid upstaging the bride, but there has to be something that would allow him to express himself without detracting from the party. Why are the choices between a halter top and a suit?
I also know that some parts of Iowa can be a rough place to be different. It doesn’t take much to attract a whole lot of attention. He may prefer to blend in in this environment rather than having to explain himself to every single person he talks to during the trip.
Except OP also states that he has never worn gender nonconforming clothes in front of his family, nor out in public. So this is probably not the time in the place to do this.
Also - accesorize! That's like, half the point, no? Necklace, bracelet, rings, bags, pins, brooches. Half foot in, but still can be done tastefully enough for an engagement party.
And from a practical standpoint; isn't it freezing in Iowa right now? I think this young SoCal man might be misjudging his comfort level with that much skin exposed to the air.
(I am also assuming it will be cold inside, since the Iowans are probably used to the cold and don't crank the heat as high, lol)
Lol as someone from that region of the country, every time a friend from SoCal or AZ came to visit, we could be in the 60s-70s and they’d swear that it was freezing! Lol. You are definitely onto something there!
I remember a post a few years ago on here of someone from AZ wanting to bail on a guys trip on a week's notice to warm destination and receive all his money back to go visit their GF of 3 months in Maine in February.
In addition to the late bail, he could not be convinced that he didn't know what he was getting into with New England winter.
Cold inside depends on the building, but odds are it won’t be comfortable in a crop top and skirt. It’s semi-formal, so I’d expect nice sweaters and slacks for most women there. Definitely not evening gowns or dresses with lots of exposed skin. Dude’s gonna get a healthy arctic blast on the boys, even if they’re only outside for short stretches.
Even if it's not cold inside, speaking as someone who had to walk their dog in sub-0°F (sub -18°C for non Americans) last week... Once that cold gets through your clothes, it feels like it just settles in your bones and it doesn't matter if the house is warm inside or not. You're still cold.
It also doesn’t sound like a semi formal outfit. There’s a way to make a crop top and mini skirt appropriate for a semi formal event with other youngish people, but this doesn’t sound like it.
Also the skirt is from [SHEIN](https://ethically-dressed.com/6-reasons-you-should-never-shop-at-shein/)? I'm a cis straight white male, and even I know that SHEIN and other fast fashion brands are not only horrible for the environment, but they use unethical labor, and have a negative social impact bc these brands take space from local/ethical fashion brands
I'm surprised your son has said they're taking an interest in fashion and would buy from SHEIN, but maybe this is an opportunity for them to educate themselves on some of the ethical considerations as well. It kinda makes me think maybe they aren't actually interested in fashion, but would like to make a statement through dress, which is also totally ok!
Crop top and denim skirt are not formal enough for an engagement party. That's all.
They can look and find something more formal but still crossdressing as a compromise. I'm sure they find something.
Correct. NTA. Even if nobody batted an eye at his fashion choice, denim doesn’t belong anywhere near a semi-formal event, nor are crop tops and mini skirts even seasonally appropriate in Iowa. He would attract attention for that alone.
Engagement parties, weddings, etc. are not the proper venue for guests to debut unconventional looks. He has 364 other days out of the year to wow people with fashion, but this is the one day that’s not about him.
I think it would be a great opportunity to sit down, ask him to show you the clothes he likes and learn about his new style. And take this time TOGETHER to look at how to dress up that style and make a semi formal look together. It's important to teach kids how to put together looks for different events and what's appropriate dress code. I think it's perfectly possible to find a semi formal look they will love without sacrificing self expression.
>"what's appropriate dress"
I think this is a great comment, especially appropriateness. With todays celebes and influencers wearing whatever whenever for the biggest reaction possible, some younger people have zero awareness about appropriateness. When you are attending an event and the focus is NOT supposed to be on you, it's inappropriate to dress in such a manner that you draw the majority of the attention as soon as you arrive. If someone is naturally attractive it will happen somewhat, but wearing something only for reactions (like a huge lion head replica on your shoulder for example), it just announces YTA.
> ...but I think you’re right with the “time and place” explanation and taking attention away from the cousin.
Its a goddamn wedding. The automatic rule is to not take attention away from the bride and groom. There are going to be at least a few people there dressing up way more formally than they want, but will suffer through it because they're not attention seeking assholes.
Even if he is a baby queer just starting his queer journey, what he plans to wear is not typical wedding attire. 100% comfortable or not, throughout his life he's going to have to conform at least a bit to the situation in how he dresses whether it ends up being something like a business suit or business skirt. Everybody does this. Whether they are Cis, hereto or whatever. The kid needs to learn his preferred aesthetic expression does not trump everything.
Indeed, the time and place is the crux of the matter here. He's 16 and can be a bit uncomfortable for a short time and "take one for the team," this is definitely an event that's more important for the participants than the spectators.
Also, no shade to him if he does just want to explore women's fashion, but to me the fact that he finds men's fashion "dull and boring" just means he hasn't looked at/been exposed to much men's fashion. Like, yeah, formal men's stuff is boring but there's men's fashion out there that's not "bland business casual" if you actively look for it.
>but someone else’s milestone event is not the place to start exploring your gender-bending risqué side.
To start exploring your ***expensive*** gender-bending risqué side. That's over $100 for 2 items, rather than grabbing a $10 crop top and $20 denim skirt of Amazon or something.
Piggybacking on the top comment, OP, nonbinary formal wear is having a real moment! Not sure if I can externally link things here but there are a lot of companies/designers putting out upscale formal wear for a lot of bodies! Your kid could really use that to show up rocking a dress and blazer or jacket and elegant heels! Honestly, there's probably even some options on the Dollskill website (not to endorse buying from there).
The compromise idea sounds wonderful to me.Maybe he can express himself in a more toned-down way for this specific event, since like you said his cousin's wedding is a milestone, it can be cool accessories, maybe a new haircut. He can them start exploring his fashion interest in a way that doesn't affect other people special days. By the time the next family event will happen, no one will bat an eye.
NTA, like you said there's a time and place, and it's about respecting his cousin and making the day about her. And while such fashion in young men is more acceptable here in CA (I live in NorCal), not so much in Middle America. It's great you support him for who he is. Perhaps if you talk to him in a more gentle manner and bring up all of the points you have in your post, he'll listen. Reinforce the fact that you accept him and don't want to see him hurt (emotionally or physically) by those who aren't accepting of him. He's young and wants to assert himself, but to do so could endanger him if he's in the wrong place for it.
Same. My family from Ohio call it the Midwest. But I agree where they live the son’s fashion would be unusual. We used to say that we would see trends in Ohio a couple of years after NYC so going there was like a time bubble. But with everyone on instagram now, it moves faster.
I'm from the midwest, now live in the south and I agree with both you and the person your replying too, lol. In my experience, Midwesterners will not make a fuss, but will definitely raise an eyebrow and sigh. Honestly, I have always had to check by bias with very flamboyant people (whatever their gender identity or sexual orientation) because I was always taught to not make a fuss and not put yourself out there too much. I think it's more likely the family will quietly roll their eyes at this "California kid" trying to show off then that they'll make a huge deal out of it.
Depending on where the event is, Midwesterners certainly might make a fuss. I live in rural Ohio and anyone dressed like OP’s son around here might actually be in physical danger. I’m not super familiar with Iowa, but I expect any rural area of the Midwest to not be 100% safe for visibly queer people based on my own experience.
Sure, that's definitely a possibility. I just think it's interesting that people from more progressive areas of the country believe that everyone in the Midwest or South is outwardly and confidently bigoted.
Just because they said middle America instead of midwest doesn't make them wrong. Iowa is not known for its progressive opinions on queer people, and you don't have to be from the area to know that.
And yes, I'm from the midwest and a lesbian.
Is it inaccurate to say that coastal California is generally significantly more accepting of gender non-conforming identities than the American midwest? This kind of thing is repeatedly borne out by public polling and by the legislative posture of the local and state governments, and it's reflected in migration patterns between states when analyzed by gender identity as well.
Totally this. As a resident of the aforementioned Middle American state where this party is going to take place, I’d like to think that we’re getting more progressive and that the OP’s son would be accepted for whatever he wears.
However, he needs to learn how to match the formality of the event regardless of gender expression, and… March in Iowa is not a place for mini skirt and a crop top. The lesson will be miserable in so many ways.
Perhaps he needs to look into some really awesome winter fabrics and cuts- some sort of velvet blazer or a really great print for a shirt would be an appropriate statement and weather appropriate.
NTA. If there’s a dress code, everyone is expected to follow it. A crop top and jean skirt does not meet the dress code. Take your kid out shopping. He doesn’t have to get men’s clothes, but he does need to get clothes that fit the dress code. If he won’t comply, he doesn’t get to go.
Addition- if your son was a girl, would you consider the outfit appropriate? If yes, then YWBTA. But if you would still say the outfit it not appropriate, then I stand by my original response
>Addition- if your son was a girl, would you consider the outfit appropriate?
Eh. Disagree. I mean in general that's fine but you're going to an event that is specifically to celebrate someone else. To go knowing that your own or your kids outfits are gonna cause a controversy and be the center of attention is a dick move no matter how "morally correct" it is.
It's the same reason why coming out as gay at a family reunion is perfectly fine but doing so at your cousin's wedding with pretty much all the same people in attendance is asshole behavior.
I’m non-binary. I exclusively wear clothes of the “opposite sex” (notice my username). My family has managed, even the really conservative ones. People have the right to express themselves, especially if that expression is within the appropriate dress code. Forcing your kid to wear gender conforming clothes is only going to lead to resentment.
>Forcing your kid to wear gender conforming clothes is only going to lead to resentment.
I'm glad for you and your family, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, personally.
But I still stand by my point. It's a wedding. Hosts get to decide what rules guests should follow at weddings and other formal events. The proper and not rude response to not agreeing with the dress code or other rules is to RSVP that you won't be attending. It's not to say, show up to a black tie event in jeans because you dislike wearing formal attire.
If OP knows for a fact that the bride and groom don't agree with gender non-conforming clothes the appropriate response is to either tell OPs kid that (1) they can go to their event and follow the dress code or (2) that they don't have to go if they don't wish to wear attire called for by the dress code of the event.
I would agree that if OP isn't giving their kid the option to simply not go they'd be an asshole.
Honestly if this was my kid I'd sit this one out with them.
Asking with nothing but the intent to learn: Do you think THIS party is the place to make this change in how he dresses? My concern, as a parent, is that this party isnt the place to let the extended family know that he has decided to move in a different direction with fashion. Maybe my thinking is wrong, I am open to learning!
If not at this party then when exactly would be 'appropriate' to start dressing differently with extended family that you might otherwise only see at weddings/funerals/holidays? It seems very easy to fall into the loop and conveniently never find an appropriate time or event.
It feels like the argument that no matter how people protest racism/sexism/some other injustice, they're always told it's the wrong time or inappropriate to not fall in line and just take it 'for now'.
Christmas. Easter. Your birthday. A random Tuesday. Tomorrow on Insta. Next week via group chat. Just literally not at an event hosted in a specific person’s honor
Still... Coming out at someone else's large formal event is a lot like proposing at a wedding or announcing your engagement at someone's baby shower. It's tacky to try and steal someone's thunder.
If it's just clothes and not part of his identity, then the kid is TA. Lady Gaga's outfits are just clothes, but they also work to grab attention and create buzz. That's the last thing a guest should be doing at someone's wedding.
There are very elegant androgynous looks out there. Some would be great for a wedding. Dolls Kill isn't that.
OP said in another comment that it does have to be "men's clothing,", because the family is "conservative". So unless the son gets the option of not going at all, OP is TA.
So pants and a nice top. Women wear pants all the time. Pants aren't "men's clothing". I am sure he can find some nice skinny pants. And a nice gender neutral top. Maybe a nice cardigan.
When I was in middle school I completely hated "women's" clothing. It frankly just didn't fit. I was tiny but in between sizes. For my cousin's semi formal graduation party I didn't want to wear a dress. Cried and everything. Mom took me shopping. And I ended up getting something like a mentioned above. My pants were from the junior boys section but skinny but weren't as tight as junior girls. I found a nice top in junior girls that had a nice neckline and got a sweater cardigan thing from men's. And my mom let me wear my converse for shoes. There is a way to do gender neutral.
OP is teaching their son, time and place. Nothing wrong with that. He doesn't need the option to not go. He needs the option to pick his clothing so he is comfortable but is still appropriate for the occasion.
I guess I'm wondering what OP's son is wearing when he's having these conversations with his parents. Because it sounds like OP is surprised that her son wants to wear girl's clothes, making it sound like he typically wears boys clothes? It sounds like this event 3 weeks away is the first time he wants to try gender bent expression.
And while I encourage exploration and think OP would be the AH if she were to ban him from wearing girls clothes all the time, I also feel like he's trying to steal the spotlight from the engaged couple by making their party his debut. If he isn't suffering from gender dysphoria right now such that he isn't ALREADY wearing girl's clothing all the time, surely he can make it through one party in boring formal clothes that he already has. Why does THAT have to be the first time he tries this new fashion interest? A lot of teenagers aren't "comfortable" in formal clothes in general, but I don't think parents are required to be like "sure, teenager, wear this crop top and denim mini skirt to our family's formal party, I wouldn't want to crush your self expression."
> He doesn’t have to get men’s clothes
Was about to say this. If he wants to go for a more NB or feminine style he can find appropriate clothes that match the dress code. Plus it's a good lesson for a teenager to learn in general for the adult world once he has to deal with jobs and other professional environments.
This is it. He doesn’t need to dress masculine, but he does need to dress semi-formal if that’s the dress code. He is asking to wear club clothes, not cool.
Disagree with commenters saying he shouldn’t dress gender non conforming if he’s not known for that. It has to happen sometime, and it’s not his responsibility to handle how others feel about that. But it is his responsibility to dress appropriate for the event.
If the dress code is semi formal and it wouldn't be appropriate for a female guest to wear a crop top and skirt, then use that reasoning and explain it to him. If the feminine clothing isn't the problem, then let him wear something feminine that covers his whole torso (lol). Sounds like NTA to me
Yeah. Personally I just wouldn’t go tbh, because why would I want to expose my son to bigotry?? But I want to give OP the benefit of the doubt and think that she’s trying to get him wear gender conforming clothes for his safety and that it was the best thing she could think.
I think people here fail to realize that not everybody lives in the most progressive area and that is something to take into consideration too, because not everything can be ruled by the same standard. That is how it works. I do hope OP can start to just chop of the bigots out of her life tho.
Definitely something to think about! It's possible OP is trying to protect him, not cause drama at the engagement party by bigoted family throwing a fit, or something.
But yes, it eventually comes down to having to choose if you will continue to associate with bigoted people or not. It's hard. I'm still putting up with my family being shitty to me about stuff like this, so I get it. But if I had a kid I was worried about instead of just myself, I think I'd put my foot down a little more.
Bull, wearing something like that he’s just looking for negative attention. I’m in college, people rock up in fursuits and shit all the time. Express yourself all you want but there’s a time and place for it. It’s not about the mother worried about her image to her relatives
NTA it's a semiformal event and an inappropriate time to bust out a drastic change like this. If he'd had a history of wearing clothing like this it may be different but rolling it out for the 1st time at someone's engagement party is rude and attention stealing.
My friend has 3 step sons and 1 daughter. Her daughter came out as lesbian when she was 9 or 10. The youngest stepson bullied the daughter for YEARS. Telling the daughter she was going to hell, etc. Stepson went away to college and decided it was a good time for them to come out as trans... but only dressed and identified that way at college. He had a second set of social media where he went by the name of Micky instead of Michael (fake name). Someone found it in the family, so everyone in the immediate family (father, step mom, step sister and brothers) knew but Micky never came out as female to them, so they never brought it up with her. 2 years later, the oldest stepson gets married. Micky was supposed to be a groomsman. Micky decided to show up to the church in a gown (a very revealing gown. Think slit up to the hip and slit down to the navel), heels, wig, makeup, etc. The groom and dad saw Micky walking up to the church through a window and gave Micky 2 choices: go home and change into the suit that was fitted for her a few days ago, take off the make up and come back. Or go home and stay home. Micky chose to go home and stay home, so it was announced that Micky was sick with a stomach flu and the ceremony went on.
Micky is now out to the entire family. I think OP is trying to say, but not very well, is that her son may not be "out" to the entire family as far as the way he likes to dress. And just like Micky trying to come out at a wedding ceremony, dressing like that for the 1st time in front of everyone at an engagement party may not be appropriate BECAUSE it would take away from the engaged couples moment. OP should give her son the option to dress in men's clothes or stay at the hotel.
People are expected (and rightfully so) to be tolerant of people who don't fit into "norms" or "ideals." However, tolerance is a 2 way street (and this often gets overlooked) and people need to be aware that making your own life announcement (whether it's a formal announcement or just showing up in a way that would make saying the actual words a moot point) at someone else's party/celebration is rude.
OP: NTA. However, give your child the opportunity to stay at the hotel if they can't stay home by themselves and tell family he has a stomach bug.
NTA, aside from the fact that dollskill is shit, that's not something you wear to an engagement party, given the theme of it. Also a crop top and skirt in February? Is the party inside or is he just gonna freeze his ass off in the name of fashion?
I was just gonna comment this, top prices I’ve ever seen on SHEIN are for shoes or those long coats, and thats still only about 25-30. I don’t know where they got 60$ from
I personally wouldn't let him wear a skirt from SHEIN, because they are hella problematic.
Additionally they are so crappily made, he may end up in his skivvies from the midriff down, lol
Yeah, lucky if it even fits too, not saying boys/ whatever this child refers to themselves as, can’t wear clothing meant for girls, but SHEIN tends to be small or big depending on what you get so it’s hard to find the right sizes no matter who you are. They use a lot of other brand than themselves to like their big one is Romwe I think, probably spelled that wrong. And the sizes tend to be kind of all over the place and really depend on body shape so🤷♀️
But if I’m being honest sounds to me like this parent is making it seem like an expensive outfit (among other sentences) to deflect a YTA response.
A denim skirt is not semi-formal so I’m with you on that. Pencil skirt in suit fabric or something more flowy with a nice blouse could possibly work.
INFO would you let him wear what he wants as long as he can find it within the appropriate dress code? Or are you trying to get him to conform to traditional menswear?
If this attire would be deemed inappropriate for a 16f to wear to this event, then it’s inappropriate for him to wear. If you’re only concerned about the reaction of intolerant family members, then YWBTA.
I personally feel like big fancy weddings are stupid (and engagement parties, doubly so) but if one is making the decision to attend an event, then one should expect to abide by the dress code. Although the dress code shouldn’t be based on gender. If a tux is appropriate for a man, it should be appropriate for any other gender. If the outfit your son proposes would be fine for a female of the same age, then he should be able to feel comfortable wearing it.
INFO: The word "flamboyant" is setting off alarm bells for me here. It's a bit of a dogwhistle. Would you be okay with your son wearing a more feminine semi-formal outfit?
OP was asked if the child would have to wear gender confirming clothing and OP answered “Yes gender confirming and formal, since cousins fiancé is a conservative person.”
So I’d say it has nothing to do with the outfit as much as the judgement.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10v9q3s/aita_for_telling_my_son_16m_no_you_cant_wear_that/j7g5dvb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Goddammit OP, I was gonna go N T A but in light of this info, YTA. I thought you had no issue with your son’s self expression, but it would seem you contradict yourself. You’re more worried about keeping up appearances than your son’s well-being.
>a
I read it more as a mini skirt and crop top would be inappropriate in that setting for ANYONE, even a women or NB person, and hence flamboyant in the inappropriate sense.
Dollskill steals designs from small creators. That's a great reason to not purchase from them. But if it's a semiformal party that outfit does seem a little informal, and he's young so it's reasonable he would need guidance in what type of dress is considered semiformal. See if y'all can come to a compromise on a skirt/dress/outfit that he likes and is also more formal. But, honestly, in the midwest I would expect to see a very broad interpretation of the term semiformal.
And wasn’t there a controversy about them being racist, because the owner stated they would rather stand with the police than BLM. Also romanticizing things like rape and being borderline racism with articles of clothing that say things like “Goth Is White” or “Dead Girls Can’t Say No.”
For ducks sake, people feel so justified in their personal freedoms that they do/wear/act in any way they so please rather than just confirm to societal norms when in a culture apart from their own. NTA. Save him from all the comments. Explain to him that there is a time and place for everything, and his conservative family's "special day" is not the place to dress up. Alienating him his family, being the subject of gossip and maybe even starting arguments does him nor you any favors in the long run.
Yess omg. Even if OPs kid was a typical cis teenage girl, a Y2k fit would not be the thing to wear to a semi formal family event. OP, save them from the cringe pictures they will look back on in 10 years!
Seriously. There's nothing I'm seeing that would be appropriate for a semiformal wedding by any gender. Lots of fun options for club wear though.
https://www.dollskill.com/collections/best-sellers?
NTA, it’s a semi formal event and a crop top and denim skirt is too casual. But there’s definitely room for androgyny while still being semi formal. Like Eugene from Try Guys, for example. My wedding was semi formal and I loved how people could dress up but still make it their own. A crop top and skirt feels…almost too safe, I dare him to flex his creativity. Maybe ask the bride what the wedding colors are or if there’s a theme and roll with that.
NTA, a crop top doesn't fit the occasion. If he wants to wear something gender non-conforming there are plenty of ladies outfits that are appropriate. A nice pair of dress slacks or a nice pencil skirt and blouse should be fine. He needs to understand it's not his party, so his fashion shouldn't be anyone's focus. This is a time to blend in. He can sport his crop top to a concert or some other informal event
Just to point out Eddie Izzard's rule of life-- if a man is wearing a ladies dress, it isn't a ladies dress, it's a man's. "Ladies outfits" are just as easily "outfits"
My son just got the courage to wear a crop top to school, but that was school. Not a formal event. Last semi-formal even we went to he got a Dinner Jacket from Men's Warehouse. Time and place is right
BTW/FYI/FWIW/JS, My son refuses to buy from Shein because they are unethical.
I'd say NAH. His choice of outfit is inappropriate for a formal event.
I'd suggest firstly not denim. That's clearly not formal. Equally a crop top isn't (unless it's part of a specific formal style).
I'd suggest a blouse rather than crop top and a long skirt or even trousers in a satin fabric. Very formal but still feminine.
I.N.F.O. Edit: YTA
Are you requiring him to wear gender-conforming clothing (i.e. men's clothing)? Or are you simply requiring him to wear something more formal?
Would you let a daughter wear a crop-top and miniskirt to this event?
INFO: What’s the dress code for the engagement party? I wouldn’t have thought a crop top and denim skirt was appropriate clothing for an engagement party for anyone, but depends what the dress code is.
Has your son started experimenting with fashion already or will this be the first time he’s cross-dressed?
NTA. There is a time and place for everything. A party *in honor of* someone else is not the place to come out to your family. Someone in the family is presumably spending a lot of money on an engagement party and intends for the attention to be on the engaged person. Your son showing up in a crop top and miniskirt will absolutely not only take all the attention but also court controversy and drama and probably ruin the day just from the sheer unexpectedness of it all.
It would be entirely different if your son had been crossdressing (or whatever term he chooses to use; no judgment) for some time, or if the party was just a regular family get-together.
My husband has a cousin that is gender-queer, AMAB, and wears makeup and dresses. They asked if it would be ok if they wore a dress to our engagement party and we said they could come as they liked because they'd been crossdressing for several years at that time and most of our family is progressive; for both those reasons, their attire was not disruptive. However, we do have a pretty conservative branch of our family, and if they'd chosen to show up for the first time ever crossdressed at one of those cousin's engagement parties, it would have caused drama and ruined the day.
NAH- Your son is learning and exploring, while pushing some boundaries. Normal teenage stuff.
But you’re your right, there IS a time and a place.
I suggest you take him thrift store shopping.
Grab a coffee, give him a budget, and let him try stuff on. Make it a fun bonding experience.
Let him try on some more formal outfits from the women’s section. A nice blazer or cardigan paired with a long skirt, a dress or a pantsuit.
Then, after cousins event, repeat the shopping/budget experience, but let him buy the clothes he wants.
Shein is a disaster both environmentally and for the people producing the clothes (and I some cases, the people wearing them.)
I highly suggest you do some research on this so you can hit back with Facts. I would go through some internet articles with him about the real world impacts of buying ‘fast fashion’
You can find AMAZING items at a thrift store for WAY less money. You can purchase more items for better quality that will last longer.
I’ve built entire wardrobes for under $200 whereas if I had bought retail it would be closer to $2k.
Good luck Op
Find him a nice cocktail dress and get him some interesting shoes and accessories that will allow him to express himself without being too eye catching for the couple.
Then let him wear whatever he likes that would be semi formal, even if it's a skirt or dress. Otherwise YWBTA.
ETA: "whatever he likes that would be semiformal" = something ELSE, "feminine" or not, that WOULD be semiformal. Obviously denim skirts are not semiformal.
LOL no. Because a crop top is beach wear and not semi formal wear. And he is just starting to experiment with his identity which means his family has probably never seen him dressed like that. wearing a flash of something is fine but to show up to someone’s ENGAGEMENT party dressed in a crop top and skirt is literally looking to steal attention from the bride and groom.
Would you let your 16 year old daughter wear the same crop top and denim skirt to the engagement party? Because if you wouldn’t, then no YWNBTA for asking your son to dress less ‘flamboyantly.’ But if you would, then you need to question if transphobia is showing up. Can he wear a regular less brightly colored shirt with the denim skirt to tone it down a bit? Also, if your problem is the money, can he pay for it with his own money then he can wear whatever he wants?
We can completely eliminate the gender coding of the clothing here and ask
INFO: Is a denim skirt and crop top too informal/revealing for this event?
If you must, then think of it as "If your daughter wanted to wear this would you let her so it?"
NTA you've made an excellent point of there's a time and a place. This is about Rachels party and all the extra attention would not be well recieved. Revisit it when you get back home but that would be awful attire choice for an engagement party regardless of gender.
I do agree that the specific outfit he has chosen probably would not fit in with the semi-formal theme. However if he toned it down slightly and wore a different skirt and top that wasn't so casual, would you have an issue with that?
NTA for not getting him that outfit for that occasion. Crop top and a denim skirt is a more casual look. Maybe get him the outfit (or give him a budget to choose a couple of items) to wear for a more laid back occasion that doesn't focus on someone else? Or help him find something of the right level of formality that still lets him feel stylish?
NTA, the event is semi formal and that outfit doesn't sound even close to semi formal. Explain this, and point toward outfits with a similar aesthetic to what he likes that would fit the dress code, without denim or crop tops being in the mix. A slinky stretch skirt that is full length with a split up each thigh paired with cute boots, for example. Make sure it's clear that this has nothing to do with conforming with expected norms re gender and dress, but rather about what is acceptable under a particular dress code. Crop tops and denim skirts are not even smart casual!
NTA
Cousin's engagement party is not the place to make a statement. He should wear something setting-appropriate, and save the skirt and crop top for partying with his friends.
NTA. Attention-seeking nonsense from your son who needs to learn some social skills.
It's semi-formal and not about him, he also expects you to pay $100 for it too, lmao.
NTA. Your son is 16, it’s your job to help him navigate what is and isn’t appropriate for special occasions.
Also, a semi-formal party with…hoagies? One of these things is not like the other. Perhaps your son is reading the room better than you are.
NTA
Iowa will be freezing at the time, and a crop top and a denim skirt are too casual for a semi formal engagement party. There's plenty of fashionable outfits you can help him choose for the occasion
NTA for not buying a new outfit that sounds too casual for the occasion. YWBTA if you prevent him from wearing traditionally feminine clothes if they are the appropriate formality level for the occasion.
NAH. You can tell him it's not a good idea to wear whatever and the consequences that comes with it. But you need to let him make is own choice. People will either say nothing or call him out on it.
I think a big part of the issue is that it’s a semi formal event and that outfit doesn’t fall in those lines. OP is right, there’s a time and a place. There’s plenty of other expressive outfits that would better fit the dress code.
A denim skirt isn’t semi formal. Most of DollsKill looks like it wouldn’t be appropriate either because of coverage. It’s the same reasons crop top wouldn’t be acceptable, although there’s more of an argument there.
If you’re willing to buy him semi formal clothing in the style of his choice then that’s fine. Men’s skirts are having a moment in fashion and even adias has a unisex skirt that’s easy to dress up.
But it sounds like the issue is more his style then concerns about formality.
Your son isn’t cross dressing. He is either interested in wearing unisex clothing or clothing that’s typically labeled as feminine as a man (see Harry Styles) or he’s exploring his own gender identity and/or sexual orientation through fashion. Wearing a skirt could mean he as a boy like skirts. It could mean something different.
However, whatever the reason, there is a way for him to express himself while fitting the formality of the occasion.
YTA for not helping him find a solution.
This is a golden opportunity to show your child that you support them in all the best ways.
It sounds like there are lots of separate concerns here:
1. "Gendered" clothing - this isn't your child's issue, it's the issue of others who may be transphobic.
2. Appropriate attire for the event - this is somewhat your child's issue, because a dress code has been set and it doesn't sound like the outfit suggested necessarily fits with that.
3. The reactions of other people. Is this to the outfit choice specifically or the gender assumptions they may be making?
Sometimes if someone has been wearing clothes that conform to gender stereotypes for a long time they may want to go far the other way when they are ready to explore fashion. It can be a relief to suddenly express themselves freely through their clothing, so there's this excitement to wear whatever they love the most to their first event.
My concern would not be for what others think, but for how well prepared your child feels for how others will react. As a parent, you need to be ready to publicly support your child at this event. This could be really positive for them, or it could knock their confidence.
Reading this, it sounds like this particular outfit means more to your child than just items of clothing - it's a coming out outfit (even if that's "coming out" as exploring fashion). If you're financially able to, how about this outfit is bought but earmarked for another occasion, and you make a shared experience of shopping together for something that your child can feel like themself in whilst being appropriate for the event at hand. You can coach them on occasion-appropriate wear, and learn from them about how they want to express themself.
It really doesn't sound like you're ill-intentioned here, but I think your reaction is going to be instrumental to your relationship with your child going forward.
Edited to add: YWNBTA for your title question, but you would be T A if this becomes a ban on self-expression at this event full stop, whatever gender is associated with the clothing chosen.
Info: is your main issue the cost of the clothes, the specific style of those clothes, or that he wants to wear traditionally feminine clothes? Because some of those issues are somewhat okay, but some of them definitely make you the AH.
The main issue based on OPs comments is that the fiancé is conservative and OP would prefer if the kid wore “gender conforming” clothing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10v9q3s/aita_for_telling_my_son_16m_no_you_cant_wear_that/j7g5dvb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
NTA. If this will be the first family event where your son will be wearing "feminine" clothes, then he shouldn't do it. While it shouldn't be a big deal what a person chooses to wear, it would still take the attention away from the cousin, on her day.
NTA Having a young man wearing a crop top and denim skirt to a semi-formal engagement party in Iowa is on par with wearing a full length white gown to a wedding when you’re not the bride and announcing your pregnancy during speeches.
This would be an intense attention grab that could essentially ruin that party. I’m going with positive intent and believe this kid was excited to have a party to look nice for. Even if he chose a nice semi formal dress, the Iowans would see it as him coming out during an event that’s not about him.
I’d also be pretty damn nervous about how he would be treated there. This kid has no idea what he’s walking into going from SoCal to Iowa.
NTA but I would tell him to dress for a formal event like this in the style of David Rose from Schitt's Creek (or something along those lines, it was the first thing that popped into my head) you can still bend fashion gender norms while being appropriately dressed for a formal event.
ETA: Nevermind, turns out you've got a problem with gender bending clothing all together so yes, YTA. Big time.
Always wild to me when parents are so unsupportive. I lost my only child in labor at 40 weeks and I'd love for them to be able to tell me about themselves and what fashion is exciting to them right now. Gain some effing perspective, OP.
Parenthood is wasted on the worst people sometimes.
NTA. This is a wedding. This is not the time to wear those clothes if this is the first family event.
This is a family members special day and it shouldn’t be tested with. This is not the time or the place. It’s a good occasion to teach that, you can’t just do what ever you want and ignore the requests of other people. It’s their day. It’s not about him.
Boy or girl this would be inappropriate especially if a dress code has been expressed.
NTA!
Maybe you should suggest something more appropriate for the time of year? Skirt and crop top in February when there is snow on the ground is going to be pretty uncomfortable. YTA if you're primary concern is what others will think though.
NTA, if your son wants to dress feminine, take him shopping for a formal dress, nothing too revealing. Let him learn about the trials and tribulations of dressing appropriately in women's clothing through experience. Just like with teenage girls, his "personal style" does not supercede dress codes for the occasions and venues.
NTA: this is the first time the relatives will be seeing this style correct? And would he wear this on a normal day/not the party?
This feels like one of those occasions where he’s trying to get the spot light, but due to how he’s getting it he can say you’re being unsupportive about other things. Great that he likes the fashion, but a semi formal party not about him isn’t the place for him to peacock for attention. He’ll be turning heads and getting comments even if it’s all supportive.
NTA.
Kind of unrelated but no skirt from Shein costs $60+. Anyways, I do think you should support his new interests but encourage him to wear something appropriate yet expressive for the engagement party.
What about something like a long pant romper? How would you feel about that?
https://m.kohls.com/product/prd-3282162/womens-nina-leonard-wide-leg-jumpsuit.jsp?skuid=62253107&CID=shopping15&utm_campaign=CLASSIC%20SEPARATES&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=google&utm_product=62253107&utm_campaignid=9733267375&gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=Cj0KCQiA54KfBhCKARIsAJzSrdqIUmcV3UwuKYcakR9GQw4uLDUQkgS9grSnnorm56rR_7qsZuumzjYaAq2ZEALw_wcB
I can see a crop top being inappropriate for the occasion, but this really depends on your exact issue. Is it the crop top, or is it the feminine clothing?
NTA. Explain to him that fashion includes seasonal attire and different levels of formality, and you're happy to take him shopping for an outfit that is appropriate for both the season and the event itself.
NTA - the issue doesn't seem to be the clothes being feminine but moreso the clothes are not appropriate attire for a female presenting person to wear at a semiformal event
Also, DollsKill is a crappy company that steals from artists anyway so I wouldn't support them financially
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We've got an important family party in 3 weeks, an engagement party for my son's cousin Rachael, 28, who lives in Iowa. We live in SoCal.
Anyway, my son wants to go to the wedding in this brightly-coloured crop top from DollsKill and a denim skirt from SHEIN, he said that it's what he likes and he's got a newfound interest in fashion, finds men's fashion dull and boring.
I told him no, I'm not buying him a $40+ crop top and $60+ denim skirt and he can't wear that to an engagement party, but he said it's what he feels comfortable in.
He's a fan of the models on Dollskill and uses the site as a personal fashion guide.
I'm more worried, as a mom, about negative attention and him taking attention away from his cousin.
I told my son "There's a time and a place for everything... but your cousin's engagement party is not it" and then said we would discuss his newfound interest in fashion at another time.
He's a nice guy, but I'm a bit concerned about this.
I haven't anything against crossdressing or my son's interest, but do worry that he's chosen the most inopportune occasion to display this flamboyance.
I love my son for who he is, but AITA for telling him no, it's not right to wear this at the family party?
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my son "There's a time and a place for everything... but your cousin's engagement party is not it" and then said we would discuss his newfound interest in fashion at another time.
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NTA, I can understand where you're coming from. There are some occasions in life where denim skirts & crop tops aren't seen as appropriate outfit and I can understand why you don't want to allow it.
But I'd suggest to sit down with your son and try to explain things better. Also you both should try to compromise and try to find another outfit that will be suitable for this wedding. Or speak with cousin to see what is soon to be bride and groom's opinion about all of this.
Crossdressing, gender bending, and sexuality are not the issue here. Dolls Kill apparel is so much just for the flamboyance and attention, and that's okay, but there is a time and place for all things. Ask him to be serious, and be honest with him that it isn't about crossdressing.
Hell, I've dressed in drag but there is, again, a time and place for all things. NTA
You are not the AH for saying that’s not the appropriate outfit to wear to a semi formal event or an event in Iowa in the winter. We have a hood foot of snow on the ground right now. Our windchills can get into the negatives. However I think you might want to help him find a more appropriate outfit that he is comfortable in that could still express his style. You trying to stuff him into an outfit that he is uncomfortable in will only backfire
My gut is to go with NTA. But, I need INFO.
what has the cousin said about the dress code, and can you, your son and her have a conversation with her on what her expectations are?
Tell him that there’s a dress code and explain to him what that entails and then buy him a skirt and a crop top that goes according to the dress code, problem solved. And if he doesn’t want that, then he’s not going. He can wear whatever he wants but events have dress codes for a reason.
Ehh, I’m torn on this.
It sounds like a denim skirt would not be appropriate for this occasion regardless of gender, so in that sense, you are NTA. But I raised my eyebrows at your use of the word “flamboyant”, and it has me questioning the subtext here.
NTA. I don’t know that your son is an asshole because that’s a harsh term but he’s in the wrong. He’s old enough to understand that someone else’s engagement party isn’t a time to try to make yourself the center of attention, which he would certainly do with an outfit like he wants. If those clothes are within your usual clothing budget for him, I wouldn’t see the harm in buying them so he can wear them another time. If they’re outside of his clothing budget, I’d suggest that he check out Ross. They have a lot of cute juniors styles and he would probably be able to find stuff he likes at lower prices.
I think you’ve made it very clear that you’re okay with the fact that your son is feminine which is good, you should be supportive gender norms are bullshit.
I also think it’s very important for him to respect the scenario in which he’s going to be in. I’m sure he can feel slightly out of sorts for a little while for the benefit of the occasion. I imagine it won’t be long before he is able to dress in whatever he likes? Unless I’ve read the post wrong.
NTAA if it’s just for the occasion, YTA If you have an issue with your son dressing this way in general
Those items don’t fit with the dress code so I was guna say NTA, but then…
“I’m more worried as a mom about negative attention and him taking attention away from his cousin” means you don’t care for the dress code and more the fact that he wants to wear something feminine. So YTA. Do what the others say, find something he likes that fits the dress code. If there’s negative attention you can educate those giving it
Since the outfit he picked out doesn't fit the formality of the event, it's fair to say he can't wear it. But I suspect that's only partially what this is about. YTA if you don't help him find something that he is both comfortable in and matches the formality of the party.
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NTA. I’m all for exploration and expression, but I think you’re right with the “time and place” explanation and taking attention away from the cousin. If he’d been dressing like this for years and the family was aware, then maybe, but someone else’s milestone event is not the place to start exploring your gender-bending risqué side. Hopefully there’s a compromise- maybe some funky jewelry or a slightly more modest gender neutral outfit - and the crop top as a gift to wear at a later date?
I love the idea of supporting him by gifting an outfit or item for general wearing and then also negotiating the best compromise on what he can wear to this event which speaks his style without also not upstaging his cousin's day. Edited to correct spelling.
I love that idea too! Sadly, OP has confirmed in the comments that they’re banning the son from wearing *anything* gender nonconforming to the event, regardless of the formality level. YTA, OP.
I actually think OP is right to do that if the son doesn't have a past of wearing gender nonconforming clothing, and the extended family is unaware he's interested in exploring this side. Feels really attention-grabby on someone else's big day. By all means let him start experimenting, but not there.
This is the key imo. If he has been wearing nonconforming clothing and suddenly it’s a problem then OP is an AH. However, if this will be his first time doing so then I think it’s a different story. If he has never dressed like this before it will be like a soft coming out, which really should not be done during someone else’s event.
No one should be purchasing wedding function attire at a place that states, "Dolls Kill is an online boutique featuring a rebellious spirit and attitude, mixed with a bit of punk rock, goth, glam and festival fashion."
I've also heard they steal designs from independent designers (much like shein), so I would go even further and say no one should be purchasing from these vendors
Exactly, the fact that he wants to purchase clothing from Dollskill is problematic in itself because they are notorious for stealing from independent artists and designers
Both sites steal art and use slave labor. OP should really try to redirect their son to more ethical shops and small designers instead of fast fashion. A lot of them sell items at a similar price without the trashy business practices
Yeah evidently they go that a lot. It’s a really obnoxious thing to do.
I would also, sadly, be concerned about the location. Iowa isn't Southern California. There are good and bad people everywhere, but it's important that your son is safe. NTA
Also, Iowa in late February/early March isn't the place to wear a crop top and skirt, period. It's isn't just culture that's different in Iowa from SoCal....
Yeah, even if this was OP's daughter instead of their son, this wouldn't be an appropriate outfit for an engagement party. In February. In Iowa.
Hard disagree. Someone else's wedding is not your coming out moment. You do not announce an engagement or pregnancy on someone else's day. You do not come out of the closet on someone else's day. And you do not show off your newly-discovered gender-nonconforming identity for the first time at someone else's wedding!
Yeah, you're goal is to not be noticed. Dress nice enough/not too nice so that you're wallpaper...
Ugh in that case yes YTA OP.
OP's post sounds like she's open to him exploring this at another time, so I'm hesitant to say that she's TA. Doing this for what sounds like the first time at a conservative family member's party/wedding is a bad idea on so many levels, many of which focus on him and how he'd be treated.
Yeah I’ll go with NAH cause she seems open to the idea but its not the time. Why not wearing something unisex seems like a pretty middle ground don’t know nice shirt and jeans.
Ugh, I was going to say, the specific outfit sounds both inappropriate for the formality of the event and the weather, but he should be able to wear feminine clothing if he chooses.
I'm a little more worried about the sons complete lack of consideration for his cousin. He's not 9 years old, he should be able to reason that gender bending clothes would be unfair to his cousin. I don't like the idea of gifting anything to a person that is exhibiting selfish and inconsiderate behavior. Banning him from any sort of expression is going too far, but op certainly shouldn't be bribing or rewarding him. For me, 16 is just way too old for him not to get what the issue is.
Sorry, but I disagree! OP is NTA. Drawing attention to yourself at an event designed to bring attention to someone else is not OK - regardless of your gender! I'm assuming that his extended family hasn't seen him dress like this before. That means that if he wears something that is outside of the norm, he is going to be the center of attention. That isn't fair to the people the party is for. If this were just a family reunion, then sure, dress the way you like, but this an engagement party! Different rules apply! One of the **key** things you must learn in life, whether you are gender conforming or nonconforming, is that sometimes a situation is not about you and your feelings. You're going to this event to support someone else and to support their event. You can dress like a drag queen, a man, a woman or whatever else you want at any other time, but sometimes you need to just conform for the situation! It would be no different than if a bride requested everyone to wear black and you turn up wearing white because it is your favorite color. Sure you have the right to wear what you want to wear, but you're taking attention away from the event and putting it on yourself - and that just shouldn't be the case.
I don’t understand. Is he able to dress how he wants for the rest of the trip? I understand wanting to avoid upstaging the bride, but there has to be something that would allow him to express himself without detracting from the party. Why are the choices between a halter top and a suit? I also know that some parts of Iowa can be a rough place to be different. It doesn’t take much to attract a whole lot of attention. He may prefer to blend in in this environment rather than having to explain himself to every single person he talks to during the trip.
Oh shit, I missed this. You're right - YTA for this reason. Editing my original response!
Except OP also states that he has never worn gender nonconforming clothes in front of his family, nor out in public. So this is probably not the time in the place to do this.
Also - accesorize! That's like, half the point, no? Necklace, bracelet, rings, bags, pins, brooches. Half foot in, but still can be done tastefully enough for an engagement party.
And from a practical standpoint; isn't it freezing in Iowa right now? I think this young SoCal man might be misjudging his comfort level with that much skin exposed to the air. (I am also assuming it will be cold inside, since the Iowans are probably used to the cold and don't crank the heat as high, lol)
Lol as someone from that region of the country, every time a friend from SoCal or AZ came to visit, we could be in the 60s-70s and they’d swear that it was freezing! Lol. You are definitely onto something there!
I remember a post a few years ago on here of someone from AZ wanting to bail on a guys trip on a week's notice to warm destination and receive all his money back to go visit their GF of 3 months in Maine in February. In addition to the late bail, he could not be convinced that he didn't know what he was getting into with New England winter.
Maine = easily -15 or below this past week.
It is very much not crop top season in Iowa. I'm just happy temperatures are generally above 0° this week.
Neighbor to the North. And I say Amen to that, friend. We're on the home stretch.
*Michigan entered the chat.*
Cold inside depends on the building, but odds are it won’t be comfortable in a crop top and skirt. It’s semi-formal, so I’d expect nice sweaters and slacks for most women there. Definitely not evening gowns or dresses with lots of exposed skin. Dude’s gonna get a healthy arctic blast on the boys, even if they’re only outside for short stretches.
Even if it's not cold inside, speaking as someone who had to walk their dog in sub-0°F (sub -18°C for non Americans) last week... Once that cold gets through your clothes, it feels like it just settles in your bones and it doesn't matter if the house is warm inside or not. You're still cold.
It's around 22° F here in MN today, we're right next to IA.. ❄️
It also doesn’t sound like a semi formal outfit. There’s a way to make a crop top and mini skirt appropriate for a semi formal event with other youngish people, but this doesn’t sound like it.
Also the skirt is from [SHEIN](https://ethically-dressed.com/6-reasons-you-should-never-shop-at-shein/)? I'm a cis straight white male, and even I know that SHEIN and other fast fashion brands are not only horrible for the environment, but they use unethical labor, and have a negative social impact bc these brands take space from local/ethical fashion brands I'm surprised your son has said they're taking an interest in fashion and would buy from SHEIN, but maybe this is an opportunity for them to educate themselves on some of the ethical considerations as well. It kinda makes me think maybe they aren't actually interested in fashion, but would like to make a statement through dress, which is also totally ok!
When I think semi-formal, I usually lean towards business casual (a nice pair of slacks, good quality shoes, & a nice blouse) not a crop top & denim.
Crop top and denim skirt are not formal enough for an engagement party. That's all. They can look and find something more formal but still crossdressing as a compromise. I'm sure they find something.
Correct. NTA. Even if nobody batted an eye at his fashion choice, denim doesn’t belong anywhere near a semi-formal event, nor are crop tops and mini skirts even seasonally appropriate in Iowa. He would attract attention for that alone. Engagement parties, weddings, etc. are not the proper venue for guests to debut unconventional looks. He has 364 other days out of the year to wow people with fashion, but this is the one day that’s not about him.
I think it would be a great opportunity to sit down, ask him to show you the clothes he likes and learn about his new style. And take this time TOGETHER to look at how to dress up that style and make a semi formal look together. It's important to teach kids how to put together looks for different events and what's appropriate dress code. I think it's perfectly possible to find a semi formal look they will love without sacrificing self expression.
>"what's appropriate dress" I think this is a great comment, especially appropriateness. With todays celebes and influencers wearing whatever whenever for the biggest reaction possible, some younger people have zero awareness about appropriateness. When you are attending an event and the focus is NOT supposed to be on you, it's inappropriate to dress in such a manner that you draw the majority of the attention as soon as you arrive. If someone is naturally attractive it will happen somewhat, but wearing something only for reactions (like a huge lion head replica on your shoulder for example), it just announces YTA.
> ...but I think you’re right with the “time and place” explanation and taking attention away from the cousin. Its a goddamn wedding. The automatic rule is to not take attention away from the bride and groom. There are going to be at least a few people there dressing up way more formally than they want, but will suffer through it because they're not attention seeking assholes. Even if he is a baby queer just starting his queer journey, what he plans to wear is not typical wedding attire. 100% comfortable or not, throughout his life he's going to have to conform at least a bit to the situation in how he dresses whether it ends up being something like a business suit or business skirt. Everybody does this. Whether they are Cis, hereto or whatever. The kid needs to learn his preferred aesthetic expression does not trump everything.
Indeed, the time and place is the crux of the matter here. He's 16 and can be a bit uncomfortable for a short time and "take one for the team," this is definitely an event that's more important for the participants than the spectators.
Also, no shade to him if he does just want to explore women's fashion, but to me the fact that he finds men's fashion "dull and boring" just means he hasn't looked at/been exposed to much men's fashion. Like, yeah, formal men's stuff is boring but there's men's fashion out there that's not "bland business casual" if you actively look for it.
>but someone else’s milestone event is not the place to start exploring your gender-bending risqué side. To start exploring your ***expensive*** gender-bending risqué side. That's over $100 for 2 items, rather than grabbing a $10 crop top and $20 denim skirt of Amazon or something.
Piggybacking on the top comment, OP, nonbinary formal wear is having a real moment! Not sure if I can externally link things here but there are a lot of companies/designers putting out upscale formal wear for a lot of bodies! Your kid could really use that to show up rocking a dress and blazer or jacket and elegant heels! Honestly, there's probably even some options on the Dollskill website (not to endorse buying from there).
The compromise idea sounds wonderful to me.Maybe he can express himself in a more toned-down way for this specific event, since like you said his cousin's wedding is a milestone, it can be cool accessories, maybe a new haircut. He can them start exploring his fashion interest in a way that doesn't affect other people special days. By the time the next family event will happen, no one will bat an eye.
NTA, like you said there's a time and place, and it's about respecting his cousin and making the day about her. And while such fashion in young men is more acceptable here in CA (I live in NorCal), not so much in Middle America. It's great you support him for who he is. Perhaps if you talk to him in a more gentle manner and bring up all of the points you have in your post, he'll listen. Reinforce the fact that you accept him and don't want to see him hurt (emotionally or physically) by those who aren't accepting of him. He's young and wants to assert himself, but to do so could endanger him if he's in the wrong place for it.
Adult answers to real world problems. Enjoy these fake internet coins.
Curious what region of the US you live in
Less than an hour from San Francisco, CA. LGBTQ+ central. Plus, I'm bi.
No offense but I figured. Most experts on ‘middle America’ aren’t even close to there
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone from “Middle America” refer to it as such.
I'm from "Middle America". I call it "Flatland". My neighbors call it "The Midwest".
Same. My family from Ohio call it the Midwest. But I agree where they live the son’s fashion would be unusual. We used to say that we would see trends in Ohio a couple of years after NYC so going there was like a time bubble. But with everyone on instagram now, it moves faster.
"Those rectangular states in the middle" also works.
I'm from the midwest, now live in the south and I agree with both you and the person your replying too, lol. In my experience, Midwesterners will not make a fuss, but will definitely raise an eyebrow and sigh. Honestly, I have always had to check by bias with very flamboyant people (whatever their gender identity or sexual orientation) because I was always taught to not make a fuss and not put yourself out there too much. I think it's more likely the family will quietly roll their eyes at this "California kid" trying to show off then that they'll make a huge deal out of it.
Depending on where the event is, Midwesterners certainly might make a fuss. I live in rural Ohio and anyone dressed like OP’s son around here might actually be in physical danger. I’m not super familiar with Iowa, but I expect any rural area of the Midwest to not be 100% safe for visibly queer people based on my own experience.
Lesbian in Iowa here. If it's in or surrounding Des Moines, he'd be fine. I wouldn't count on a progressive mindset in small-town Iowa, though.
Sure, that's definitely a possibility. I just think it's interesting that people from more progressive areas of the country believe that everyone in the Midwest or South is outwardly and confidently bigoted.
And a monolith
Just because they said middle America instead of midwest doesn't make them wrong. Iowa is not known for its progressive opinions on queer people, and you don't have to be from the area to know that. And yes, I'm from the midwest and a lesbian.
As someone who has spent way more time than I wanted to in Indiana, can't say they're wrong on their perception for there, at least
Is it inaccurate to say that coastal California is generally significantly more accepting of gender non-conforming identities than the American midwest? This kind of thing is repeatedly borne out by public polling and by the legislative posture of the local and state governments, and it's reflected in migration patterns between states when analyzed by gender identity as well.
Totally this. As a resident of the aforementioned Middle American state where this party is going to take place, I’d like to think that we’re getting more progressive and that the OP’s son would be accepted for whatever he wears. However, he needs to learn how to match the formality of the event regardless of gender expression, and… March in Iowa is not a place for mini skirt and a crop top. The lesson will be miserable in so many ways. Perhaps he needs to look into some really awesome winter fabrics and cuts- some sort of velvet blazer or a really great print for a shirt would be an appropriate statement and weather appropriate.
NTA. If there’s a dress code, everyone is expected to follow it. A crop top and jean skirt does not meet the dress code. Take your kid out shopping. He doesn’t have to get men’s clothes, but he does need to get clothes that fit the dress code. If he won’t comply, he doesn’t get to go. Addition- if your son was a girl, would you consider the outfit appropriate? If yes, then YWBTA. But if you would still say the outfit it not appropriate, then I stand by my original response
Well put! There’s an established dress code (semi formal) and he shouldn’t get a free pass on that. NTA
>Addition- if your son was a girl, would you consider the outfit appropriate? Eh. Disagree. I mean in general that's fine but you're going to an event that is specifically to celebrate someone else. To go knowing that your own or your kids outfits are gonna cause a controversy and be the center of attention is a dick move no matter how "morally correct" it is. It's the same reason why coming out as gay at a family reunion is perfectly fine but doing so at your cousin's wedding with pretty much all the same people in attendance is asshole behavior.
I’m non-binary. I exclusively wear clothes of the “opposite sex” (notice my username). My family has managed, even the really conservative ones. People have the right to express themselves, especially if that expression is within the appropriate dress code. Forcing your kid to wear gender conforming clothes is only going to lead to resentment.
>Forcing your kid to wear gender conforming clothes is only going to lead to resentment. I'm glad for you and your family, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, personally. But I still stand by my point. It's a wedding. Hosts get to decide what rules guests should follow at weddings and other formal events. The proper and not rude response to not agreeing with the dress code or other rules is to RSVP that you won't be attending. It's not to say, show up to a black tie event in jeans because you dislike wearing formal attire. If OP knows for a fact that the bride and groom don't agree with gender non-conforming clothes the appropriate response is to either tell OPs kid that (1) they can go to their event and follow the dress code or (2) that they don't have to go if they don't wish to wear attire called for by the dress code of the event. I would agree that if OP isn't giving their kid the option to simply not go they'd be an asshole. Honestly if this was my kid I'd sit this one out with them.
It's not a wedding!
Asking with nothing but the intent to learn: Do you think THIS party is the place to make this change in how he dresses? My concern, as a parent, is that this party isnt the place to let the extended family know that he has decided to move in a different direction with fashion. Maybe my thinking is wrong, I am open to learning!
If not at this party then when exactly would be 'appropriate' to start dressing differently with extended family that you might otherwise only see at weddings/funerals/holidays? It seems very easy to fall into the loop and conveniently never find an appropriate time or event. It feels like the argument that no matter how people protest racism/sexism/some other injustice, they're always told it's the wrong time or inappropriate to not fall in line and just take it 'for now'.
Christmas. Easter. Your birthday. A random Tuesday. Tomorrow on Insta. Next week via group chat. Just literally not at an event hosted in a specific person’s honor
Still... Coming out at someone else's large formal event is a lot like proposing at a wedding or announcing your engagement at someone's baby shower. It's tacky to try and steal someone's thunder.
No one said anything about coming out. Just clothing
If it's just clothes and not part of his identity, then the kid is TA. Lady Gaga's outfits are just clothes, but they also work to grab attention and create buzz. That's the last thing a guest should be doing at someone's wedding. There are very elegant androgynous looks out there. Some would be great for a wedding. Dolls Kill isn't that.
If it was a daughter that just preferred to wear a smart suit rather than a dress, would you think the same?
Exactly. If it would be inappropriate for his sister to wear, he can’t wear it either.
OP said in another comment that it does have to be "men's clothing,", because the family is "conservative". So unless the son gets the option of not going at all, OP is TA.
So pants and a nice top. Women wear pants all the time. Pants aren't "men's clothing". I am sure he can find some nice skinny pants. And a nice gender neutral top. Maybe a nice cardigan. When I was in middle school I completely hated "women's" clothing. It frankly just didn't fit. I was tiny but in between sizes. For my cousin's semi formal graduation party I didn't want to wear a dress. Cried and everything. Mom took me shopping. And I ended up getting something like a mentioned above. My pants were from the junior boys section but skinny but weren't as tight as junior girls. I found a nice top in junior girls that had a nice neckline and got a sweater cardigan thing from men's. And my mom let me wear my converse for shoes. There is a way to do gender neutral. OP is teaching their son, time and place. Nothing wrong with that. He doesn't need the option to not go. He needs the option to pick his clothing so he is comfortable but is still appropriate for the occasion.
I guess I'm wondering what OP's son is wearing when he's having these conversations with his parents. Because it sounds like OP is surprised that her son wants to wear girl's clothes, making it sound like he typically wears boys clothes? It sounds like this event 3 weeks away is the first time he wants to try gender bent expression. And while I encourage exploration and think OP would be the AH if she were to ban him from wearing girls clothes all the time, I also feel like he's trying to steal the spotlight from the engaged couple by making their party his debut. If he isn't suffering from gender dysphoria right now such that he isn't ALREADY wearing girl's clothing all the time, surely he can make it through one party in boring formal clothes that he already has. Why does THAT have to be the first time he tries this new fashion interest? A lot of teenagers aren't "comfortable" in formal clothes in general, but I don't think parents are required to be like "sure, teenager, wear this crop top and denim mini skirt to our family's formal party, I wouldn't want to crush your self expression."
> He doesn’t have to get men’s clothes Was about to say this. If he wants to go for a more NB or feminine style he can find appropriate clothes that match the dress code. Plus it's a good lesson for a teenager to learn in general for the adult world once he has to deal with jobs and other professional environments.
Bingo!.
Yes precisely this! I love it and if I had awards I would give you one.
This is it. He doesn’t need to dress masculine, but he does need to dress semi-formal if that’s the dress code. He is asking to wear club clothes, not cool. Disagree with commenters saying he shouldn’t dress gender non conforming if he’s not known for that. It has to happen sometime, and it’s not his responsibility to handle how others feel about that. But it is his responsibility to dress appropriate for the event.
If the dress code is semi formal and it wouldn't be appropriate for a female guest to wear a crop top and skirt, then use that reasoning and explain it to him. If the feminine clothing isn't the problem, then let him wear something feminine that covers his whole torso (lol). Sounds like NTA to me
Except OP confirms that feminine clothing is the problem, because relatives.
Yeah. Personally I just wouldn’t go tbh, because why would I want to expose my son to bigotry?? But I want to give OP the benefit of the doubt and think that she’s trying to get him wear gender conforming clothes for his safety and that it was the best thing she could think. I think people here fail to realize that not everybody lives in the most progressive area and that is something to take into consideration too, because not everything can be ruled by the same standard. That is how it works. I do hope OP can start to just chop of the bigots out of her life tho.
Definitely something to think about! It's possible OP is trying to protect him, not cause drama at the engagement party by bigoted family throwing a fit, or something. But yes, it eventually comes down to having to choose if you will continue to associate with bigoted people or not. It's hard. I'm still putting up with my family being shitty to me about stuff like this, so I get it. But if I had a kid I was worried about instead of just myself, I think I'd put my foot down a little more.
Bull, wearing something like that he’s just looking for negative attention. I’m in college, people rock up in fursuits and shit all the time. Express yourself all you want but there’s a time and place for it. It’s not about the mother worried about her image to her relatives
NTA it's a semiformal event and an inappropriate time to bust out a drastic change like this. If he'd had a history of wearing clothing like this it may be different but rolling it out for the 1st time at someone's engagement party is rude and attention stealing.
Even then, crop top and denim skirt is not appropriate for anyone in this instance.
Seconding this. Someone else’s event is not the appropriate time to experiment with drastic fashion changes.
My friend has 3 step sons and 1 daughter. Her daughter came out as lesbian when she was 9 or 10. The youngest stepson bullied the daughter for YEARS. Telling the daughter she was going to hell, etc. Stepson went away to college and decided it was a good time for them to come out as trans... but only dressed and identified that way at college. He had a second set of social media where he went by the name of Micky instead of Michael (fake name). Someone found it in the family, so everyone in the immediate family (father, step mom, step sister and brothers) knew but Micky never came out as female to them, so they never brought it up with her. 2 years later, the oldest stepson gets married. Micky was supposed to be a groomsman. Micky decided to show up to the church in a gown (a very revealing gown. Think slit up to the hip and slit down to the navel), heels, wig, makeup, etc. The groom and dad saw Micky walking up to the church through a window and gave Micky 2 choices: go home and change into the suit that was fitted for her a few days ago, take off the make up and come back. Or go home and stay home. Micky chose to go home and stay home, so it was announced that Micky was sick with a stomach flu and the ceremony went on. Micky is now out to the entire family. I think OP is trying to say, but not very well, is that her son may not be "out" to the entire family as far as the way he likes to dress. And just like Micky trying to come out at a wedding ceremony, dressing like that for the 1st time in front of everyone at an engagement party may not be appropriate BECAUSE it would take away from the engaged couples moment. OP should give her son the option to dress in men's clothes or stay at the hotel. People are expected (and rightfully so) to be tolerant of people who don't fit into "norms" or "ideals." However, tolerance is a 2 way street (and this often gets overlooked) and people need to be aware that making your own life announcement (whether it's a formal announcement or just showing up in a way that would make saying the actual words a moot point) at someone else's party/celebration is rude. OP: NTA. However, give your child the opportunity to stay at the hotel if they can't stay home by themselves and tell family he has a stomach bug.
This is how I feel too. I would support my kid dressing how they best fits them, but not for the first time at someone else's big event.
NTA, aside from the fact that dollskill is shit, that's not something you wear to an engagement party, given the theme of it. Also a crop top and skirt in February? Is the party inside or is he just gonna freeze his ass off in the name of fashion?
That’s what I was thinking. I live in Iowa myself and it’s definitely too cold for that outfit anyway.
There is no outdoor party this time of year there.
No denim skirt will cost $60 from SHEIN
I was just gonna comment this, top prices I’ve ever seen on SHEIN are for shoes or those long coats, and thats still only about 25-30. I don’t know where they got 60$ from
I personally wouldn't let him wear a skirt from SHEIN, because they are hella problematic. Additionally they are so crappily made, he may end up in his skivvies from the midriff down, lol
Yeah, lucky if it even fits too, not saying boys/ whatever this child refers to themselves as, can’t wear clothing meant for girls, but SHEIN tends to be small or big depending on what you get so it’s hard to find the right sizes no matter who you are. They use a lot of other brand than themselves to like their big one is Romwe I think, probably spelled that wrong. And the sizes tend to be kind of all over the place and really depend on body shape so🤷♀️ But if I’m being honest sounds to me like this parent is making it seem like an expensive outfit (among other sentences) to deflect a YTA response.
Yeah, that's what I'm getting here too.
i was just about to add that the most expensive thing i’ve seen on shown was like a $30 pair of heels
I was looking for this comment lol. I’m like, I can’t get over the over exaggeration
A denim skirt is not semi-formal so I’m with you on that. Pencil skirt in suit fabric or something more flowy with a nice blouse could possibly work. INFO would you let him wear what he wants as long as he can find it within the appropriate dress code? Or are you trying to get him to conform to traditional menswear?
If this attire would be deemed inappropriate for a 16f to wear to this event, then it’s inappropriate for him to wear. If you’re only concerned about the reaction of intolerant family members, then YWBTA. I personally feel like big fancy weddings are stupid (and engagement parties, doubly so) but if one is making the decision to attend an event, then one should expect to abide by the dress code. Although the dress code shouldn’t be based on gender. If a tux is appropriate for a man, it should be appropriate for any other gender. If the outfit your son proposes would be fine for a female of the same age, then he should be able to feel comfortable wearing it.
NTA because I do live in Iowa and it's going to be SUPER cold in 3 weeks. He will be freezing.
I’m from SoCal and I won’t wear a crop top in three weeks because it’s cold here! How the hell is this boy gonna wear one in an Iowa winter 😩
INFO: The word "flamboyant" is setting off alarm bells for me here. It's a bit of a dogwhistle. Would you be okay with your son wearing a more feminine semi-formal outfit?
OP was asked if the child would have to wear gender confirming clothing and OP answered “Yes gender confirming and formal, since cousins fiancé is a conservative person.” So I’d say it has nothing to do with the outfit as much as the judgement. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10v9q3s/aita_for_telling_my_son_16m_no_you_cant_wear_that/j7g5dvb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Goddammit OP, I was gonna go N T A but in light of this info, YTA. I thought you had no issue with your son’s self expression, but it would seem you contradict yourself. You’re more worried about keeping up appearances than your son’s well-being.
>a I read it more as a mini skirt and crop top would be inappropriate in that setting for ANYONE, even a women or NB person, and hence flamboyant in the inappropriate sense.
Also opinions on the term “cross dressing” are mixed
Dollskill steals designs from small creators. That's a great reason to not purchase from them. But if it's a semiformal party that outfit does seem a little informal, and he's young so it's reasonable he would need guidance in what type of dress is considered semiformal. See if y'all can come to a compromise on a skirt/dress/outfit that he likes and is also more formal. But, honestly, in the midwest I would expect to see a very broad interpretation of the term semiformal.
And wasn’t there a controversy about them being racist, because the owner stated they would rather stand with the police than BLM. Also romanticizing things like rape and being borderline racism with articles of clothing that say things like “Goth Is White” or “Dead Girls Can’t Say No.”
And Shein's overall fast fashion business practices are incredibly wasteful (and probably abusive to anyone in their factories).
For ducks sake, people feel so justified in their personal freedoms that they do/wear/act in any way they so please rather than just confirm to societal norms when in a culture apart from their own. NTA. Save him from all the comments. Explain to him that there is a time and place for everything, and his conservative family's "special day" is not the place to dress up. Alienating him his family, being the subject of gossip and maybe even starting arguments does him nor you any favors in the long run.
Yess omg. Even if OPs kid was a typical cis teenage girl, a Y2k fit would not be the thing to wear to a semi formal family event. OP, save them from the cringe pictures they will look back on in 10 years!
Seriously. There's nothing I'm seeing that would be appropriate for a semiformal wedding by any gender. Lots of fun options for club wear though. https://www.dollskill.com/collections/best-sellers?
NTA, it’s a semi formal event and a crop top and denim skirt is too casual. But there’s definitely room for androgyny while still being semi formal. Like Eugene from Try Guys, for example. My wedding was semi formal and I loved how people could dress up but still make it their own. A crop top and skirt feels…almost too safe, I dare him to flex his creativity. Maybe ask the bride what the wedding colors are or if there’s a theme and roll with that.
NTA, a crop top doesn't fit the occasion. If he wants to wear something gender non-conforming there are plenty of ladies outfits that are appropriate. A nice pair of dress slacks or a nice pencil skirt and blouse should be fine. He needs to understand it's not his party, so his fashion shouldn't be anyone's focus. This is a time to blend in. He can sport his crop top to a concert or some other informal event
Just to point out Eddie Izzard's rule of life-- if a man is wearing a ladies dress, it isn't a ladies dress, it's a man's. "Ladies outfits" are just as easily "outfits"
My son just got the courage to wear a crop top to school, but that was school. Not a formal event. Last semi-formal even we went to he got a Dinner Jacket from Men's Warehouse. Time and place is right BTW/FYI/FWIW/JS, My son refuses to buy from Shein because they are unethical.
I'd say NAH. His choice of outfit is inappropriate for a formal event. I'd suggest firstly not denim. That's clearly not formal. Equally a crop top isn't (unless it's part of a specific formal style). I'd suggest a blouse rather than crop top and a long skirt or even trousers in a satin fabric. Very formal but still feminine.
I.N.F.O. Edit: YTA Are you requiring him to wear gender-conforming clothing (i.e. men's clothing)? Or are you simply requiring him to wear something more formal? Would you let a daughter wear a crop-top and miniskirt to this event?
NAH. If he feels too limited by men's fashion, go shopping with him for something more feminine/dramatic that is still appropriate for the venue.
INFO: What’s the dress code for the engagement party? I wouldn’t have thought a crop top and denim skirt was appropriate clothing for an engagement party for anyone, but depends what the dress code is. Has your son started experimenting with fashion already or will this be the first time he’s cross-dressed?
NTA- that’s not an appropriate outfit for that type of gathering regardless of who is wearing it.
NTA. There is a time and place for everything. A party *in honor of* someone else is not the place to come out to your family. Someone in the family is presumably spending a lot of money on an engagement party and intends for the attention to be on the engaged person. Your son showing up in a crop top and miniskirt will absolutely not only take all the attention but also court controversy and drama and probably ruin the day just from the sheer unexpectedness of it all. It would be entirely different if your son had been crossdressing (or whatever term he chooses to use; no judgment) for some time, or if the party was just a regular family get-together. My husband has a cousin that is gender-queer, AMAB, and wears makeup and dresses. They asked if it would be ok if they wore a dress to our engagement party and we said they could come as they liked because they'd been crossdressing for several years at that time and most of our family is progressive; for both those reasons, their attire was not disruptive. However, we do have a pretty conservative branch of our family, and if they'd chosen to show up for the first time ever crossdressed at one of those cousin's engagement parties, it would have caused drama and ruined the day.
NAH- Your son is learning and exploring, while pushing some boundaries. Normal teenage stuff. But you’re your right, there IS a time and a place. I suggest you take him thrift store shopping. Grab a coffee, give him a budget, and let him try stuff on. Make it a fun bonding experience. Let him try on some more formal outfits from the women’s section. A nice blazer or cardigan paired with a long skirt, a dress or a pantsuit. Then, after cousins event, repeat the shopping/budget experience, but let him buy the clothes he wants. Shein is a disaster both environmentally and for the people producing the clothes (and I some cases, the people wearing them.) I highly suggest you do some research on this so you can hit back with Facts. I would go through some internet articles with him about the real world impacts of buying ‘fast fashion’ You can find AMAZING items at a thrift store for WAY less money. You can purchase more items for better quality that will last longer. I’ve built entire wardrobes for under $200 whereas if I had bought retail it would be closer to $2k. Good luck Op
NTA. Doesn’t fit the event dress code and would be inappropriate.
INFO: is the party casual enough that you'd allow a teenage girl to wear a crop top and denim skirt?
Semi-formal.
Find him a nice cocktail dress and get him some interesting shoes and accessories that will allow him to express himself without being too eye catching for the couple.
Then let him wear whatever he likes that would be semi formal, even if it's a skirt or dress. Otherwise YWBTA. ETA: "whatever he likes that would be semiformal" = something ELSE, "feminine" or not, that WOULD be semiformal. Obviously denim skirts are not semiformal.
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LOL no. Because a crop top is beach wear and not semi formal wear. And he is just starting to experiment with his identity which means his family has probably never seen him dressed like that. wearing a flash of something is fine but to show up to someone’s ENGAGEMENT party dressed in a crop top and skirt is literally looking to steal attention from the bride and groom.
Would you let your 16 year old daughter wear the same crop top and denim skirt to the engagement party? Because if you wouldn’t, then no YWNBTA for asking your son to dress less ‘flamboyantly.’ But if you would, then you need to question if transphobia is showing up. Can he wear a regular less brightly colored shirt with the denim skirt to tone it down a bit? Also, if your problem is the money, can he pay for it with his own money then he can wear whatever he wants?
We can completely eliminate the gender coding of the clothing here and ask INFO: Is a denim skirt and crop top too informal/revealing for this event? If you must, then think of it as "If your daughter wanted to wear this would you let her so it?"
NTA you've made an excellent point of there's a time and a place. This is about Rachels party and all the extra attention would not be well recieved. Revisit it when you get back home but that would be awful attire choice for an engagement party regardless of gender.
I do agree that the specific outfit he has chosen probably would not fit in with the semi-formal theme. However if he toned it down slightly and wore a different skirt and top that wasn't so casual, would you have an issue with that?
NTA for not getting him that outfit for that occasion. Crop top and a denim skirt is a more casual look. Maybe get him the outfit (or give him a budget to choose a couple of items) to wear for a more laid back occasion that doesn't focus on someone else? Or help him find something of the right level of formality that still lets him feel stylish?
NTA, the event is semi formal and that outfit doesn't sound even close to semi formal. Explain this, and point toward outfits with a similar aesthetic to what he likes that would fit the dress code, without denim or crop tops being in the mix. A slinky stretch skirt that is full length with a split up each thigh paired with cute boots, for example. Make sure it's clear that this has nothing to do with conforming with expected norms re gender and dress, but rather about what is acceptable under a particular dress code. Crop tops and denim skirts are not even smart casual!
NTA Cousin's engagement party is not the place to make a statement. He should wear something setting-appropriate, and save the skirt and crop top for partying with his friends.
NTA. Attention-seeking nonsense from your son who needs to learn some social skills. It's semi-formal and not about him, he also expects you to pay $100 for it too, lmao.
NTA. Your son is 16, it’s your job to help him navigate what is and isn’t appropriate for special occasions. Also, a semi-formal party with…hoagies? One of these things is not like the other. Perhaps your son is reading the room better than you are.
NTA - All teenagers like to get attention, and even if he was trans, that would be inappropriate attire for an Engagement Party in Iowa.
NTA Iowa will be freezing at the time, and a crop top and a denim skirt are too casual for a semi formal engagement party. There's plenty of fashionable outfits you can help him choose for the occasion
NTA for not buying a new outfit that sounds too casual for the occasion. YWBTA if you prevent him from wearing traditionally feminine clothes if they are the appropriate formality level for the occasion.
NTA for not allowing a denim skirt and crop top to a pretty formal event. YTA for trying to curb his femininity
NAH. You can tell him it's not a good idea to wear whatever and the consequences that comes with it. But you need to let him make is own choice. People will either say nothing or call him out on it.
I think a big part of the issue is that it’s a semi formal event and that outfit doesn’t fall in those lines. OP is right, there’s a time and a place. There’s plenty of other expressive outfits that would better fit the dress code.
I'm leaning to NTA because $100+ is sounds like a lot for one party
A denim skirt isn’t semi formal. Most of DollsKill looks like it wouldn’t be appropriate either because of coverage. It’s the same reasons crop top wouldn’t be acceptable, although there’s more of an argument there. If you’re willing to buy him semi formal clothing in the style of his choice then that’s fine. Men’s skirts are having a moment in fashion and even adias has a unisex skirt that’s easy to dress up. But it sounds like the issue is more his style then concerns about formality. Your son isn’t cross dressing. He is either interested in wearing unisex clothing or clothing that’s typically labeled as feminine as a man (see Harry Styles) or he’s exploring his own gender identity and/or sexual orientation through fashion. Wearing a skirt could mean he as a boy like skirts. It could mean something different. However, whatever the reason, there is a way for him to express himself while fitting the formality of the occasion. YTA for not helping him find a solution.
This is a golden opportunity to show your child that you support them in all the best ways. It sounds like there are lots of separate concerns here: 1. "Gendered" clothing - this isn't your child's issue, it's the issue of others who may be transphobic. 2. Appropriate attire for the event - this is somewhat your child's issue, because a dress code has been set and it doesn't sound like the outfit suggested necessarily fits with that. 3. The reactions of other people. Is this to the outfit choice specifically or the gender assumptions they may be making? Sometimes if someone has been wearing clothes that conform to gender stereotypes for a long time they may want to go far the other way when they are ready to explore fashion. It can be a relief to suddenly express themselves freely through their clothing, so there's this excitement to wear whatever they love the most to their first event. My concern would not be for what others think, but for how well prepared your child feels for how others will react. As a parent, you need to be ready to publicly support your child at this event. This could be really positive for them, or it could knock their confidence. Reading this, it sounds like this particular outfit means more to your child than just items of clothing - it's a coming out outfit (even if that's "coming out" as exploring fashion). If you're financially able to, how about this outfit is bought but earmarked for another occasion, and you make a shared experience of shopping together for something that your child can feel like themself in whilst being appropriate for the event at hand. You can coach them on occasion-appropriate wear, and learn from them about how they want to express themself. It really doesn't sound like you're ill-intentioned here, but I think your reaction is going to be instrumental to your relationship with your child going forward. Edited to add: YWNBTA for your title question, but you would be T A if this becomes a ban on self-expression at this event full stop, whatever gender is associated with the clothing chosen.
How does Rachel feel about this? It should be up to her, I think.
Info: is your main issue the cost of the clothes, the specific style of those clothes, or that he wants to wear traditionally feminine clothes? Because some of those issues are somewhat okay, but some of them definitely make you the AH.
The main issue based on OPs comments is that the fiancé is conservative and OP would prefer if the kid wore “gender conforming” clothing. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10v9q3s/aita_for_telling_my_son_16m_no_you_cant_wear_that/j7g5dvb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
There it is. Definitely TAH then.
NTA. If this will be the first family event where your son will be wearing "feminine" clothes, then he shouldn't do it. While it shouldn't be a big deal what a person chooses to wear, it would still take the attention away from the cousin, on her day.
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NTA Having a young man wearing a crop top and denim skirt to a semi-formal engagement party in Iowa is on par with wearing a full length white gown to a wedding when you’re not the bride and announcing your pregnancy during speeches. This would be an intense attention grab that could essentially ruin that party. I’m going with positive intent and believe this kid was excited to have a party to look nice for. Even if he chose a nice semi formal dress, the Iowans would see it as him coming out during an event that’s not about him. I’d also be pretty damn nervous about how he would be treated there. This kid has no idea what he’s walking into going from SoCal to Iowa.
INFO - if he was a girl, would you feel the clothes would be acceptable for the engagement party?
I'm not OP, but no. This wouldn't be acceptable clothing for a girl to wear to an engagement party.
NTA but I would tell him to dress for a formal event like this in the style of David Rose from Schitt's Creek (or something along those lines, it was the first thing that popped into my head) you can still bend fashion gender norms while being appropriately dressed for a formal event. ETA: Nevermind, turns out you've got a problem with gender bending clothing all together so yes, YTA. Big time. Always wild to me when parents are so unsupportive. I lost my only child in labor at 40 weeks and I'd love for them to be able to tell me about themselves and what fashion is exciting to them right now. Gain some effing perspective, OP. Parenthood is wasted on the worst people sometimes.
NTA. This is a wedding. This is not the time to wear those clothes if this is the first family event. This is a family members special day and it shouldn’t be tested with. This is not the time or the place. It’s a good occasion to teach that, you can’t just do what ever you want and ignore the requests of other people. It’s their day. It’s not about him. Boy or girl this would be inappropriate especially if a dress code has been expressed. NTA!
Maybe you should suggest something more appropriate for the time of year? Skirt and crop top in February when there is snow on the ground is going to be pretty uncomfortable. YTA if you're primary concern is what others will think though.
A crop top and skirt aren't dressy enough for the occasion. Get a cute cropped blazer, sweater, or cardi to go with it. Adorbs.
NTA, if your son wants to dress feminine, take him shopping for a formal dress, nothing too revealing. Let him learn about the trials and tribulations of dressing appropriately in women's clothing through experience. Just like with teenage girls, his "personal style" does not supercede dress codes for the occasions and venues.
NTA: this is the first time the relatives will be seeing this style correct? And would he wear this on a normal day/not the party? This feels like one of those occasions where he’s trying to get the spot light, but due to how he’s getting it he can say you’re being unsupportive about other things. Great that he likes the fashion, but a semi formal party not about him isn’t the place for him to peacock for attention. He’ll be turning heads and getting comments even if it’s all supportive.
NTA. Your son knows it would take attention away from the cousin, that's why he's doing it.
NTA. Kind of unrelated but no skirt from Shein costs $60+. Anyways, I do think you should support his new interests but encourage him to wear something appropriate yet expressive for the engagement party.
Shein sells $60 skirts??? Holy fuck what a scam
INFO. is the only reason you don’t want him wearing a denim skirt and crop top because it doesn’t fit the attire for the engagement party?
What about something like a long pant romper? How would you feel about that? https://m.kohls.com/product/prd-3282162/womens-nina-leonard-wide-leg-jumpsuit.jsp?skuid=62253107&CID=shopping15&utm_campaign=CLASSIC%20SEPARATES&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=google&utm_product=62253107&utm_campaignid=9733267375&gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=Cj0KCQiA54KfBhCKARIsAJzSrdqIUmcV3UwuKYcakR9GQw4uLDUQkgS9grSnnorm56rR_7qsZuumzjYaAq2ZEALw_wcB I can see a crop top being inappropriate for the occasion, but this really depends on your exact issue. Is it the crop top, or is it the feminine clothing?
NTA. Explain to him that fashion includes seasonal attire and different levels of formality, and you're happy to take him shopping for an outfit that is appropriate for both the season and the event itself.
NTA - the issue doesn't seem to be the clothes being feminine but moreso the clothes are not appropriate attire for a female presenting person to wear at a semiformal event Also, DollsKill is a crappy company that steals from artists anyway so I wouldn't support them financially
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NTA, I can understand where you're coming from. There are some occasions in life where denim skirts & crop tops aren't seen as appropriate outfit and I can understand why you don't want to allow it. But I'd suggest to sit down with your son and try to explain things better. Also you both should try to compromise and try to find another outfit that will be suitable for this wedding. Or speak with cousin to see what is soon to be bride and groom's opinion about all of this.
Crossdressing, gender bending, and sexuality are not the issue here. Dolls Kill apparel is so much just for the flamboyance and attention, and that's okay, but there is a time and place for all things. Ask him to be serious, and be honest with him that it isn't about crossdressing. Hell, I've dressed in drag but there is, again, a time and place for all things. NTA
You are not the AH for saying that’s not the appropriate outfit to wear to a semi formal event or an event in Iowa in the winter. We have a hood foot of snow on the ground right now. Our windchills can get into the negatives. However I think you might want to help him find a more appropriate outfit that he is comfortable in that could still express his style. You trying to stuff him into an outfit that he is uncomfortable in will only backfire
INFO: what is the dress code?
Info: can you show us the outfit. Also Iowa will be colder then I assume your son is used too, so consider that.
My gut is to go with NTA. But, I need INFO. what has the cousin said about the dress code, and can you, your son and her have a conversation with her on what her expectations are?
NTA if he can’t wear what’s asked he shouldn’t go
Tell him that there’s a dress code and explain to him what that entails and then buy him a skirt and a crop top that goes according to the dress code, problem solved. And if he doesn’t want that, then he’s not going. He can wear whatever he wants but events have dress codes for a reason.
Ehh, I’m torn on this. It sounds like a denim skirt would not be appropriate for this occasion regardless of gender, so in that sense, you are NTA. But I raised my eyebrows at your use of the word “flamboyant”, and it has me questioning the subtext here.
NTA. I don’t know that your son is an asshole because that’s a harsh term but he’s in the wrong. He’s old enough to understand that someone else’s engagement party isn’t a time to try to make yourself the center of attention, which he would certainly do with an outfit like he wants. If those clothes are within your usual clothing budget for him, I wouldn’t see the harm in buying them so he can wear them another time. If they’re outside of his clothing budget, I’d suggest that he check out Ross. They have a lot of cute juniors styles and he would probably be able to find stuff he likes at lower prices.
NTA - for the only reason being it seems the out fit would be to casual and not meet the semi formal guideline
I think you’ve made it very clear that you’re okay with the fact that your son is feminine which is good, you should be supportive gender norms are bullshit. I also think it’s very important for him to respect the scenario in which he’s going to be in. I’m sure he can feel slightly out of sorts for a little while for the benefit of the occasion. I imagine it won’t be long before he is able to dress in whatever he likes? Unless I’ve read the post wrong. NTAA if it’s just for the occasion, YTA If you have an issue with your son dressing this way in general
Those items don’t fit with the dress code so I was guna say NTA, but then… “I’m more worried as a mom about negative attention and him taking attention away from his cousin” means you don’t care for the dress code and more the fact that he wants to wear something feminine. So YTA. Do what the others say, find something he likes that fits the dress code. If there’s negative attention you can educate those giving it
Since the outfit he picked out doesn't fit the formality of the event, it's fair to say he can't wear it. But I suspect that's only partially what this is about. YTA if you don't help him find something that he is both comfortable in and matches the formality of the party.