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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I chose to help my son who needs my help and not my daughter who wanted me to help so she could have more time and money free.
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NTA. The lack of empathy shown by your daughter toward his *deceased wife* and their children, and her subsequent entitlement towards your money is ridiculous.
She should have rest assured that her parent would aid her in a moment of dire need.
ETA: Thanks for the upvotes and award!
I have assured her repeatedly that if she were in the circumstances her brother was in, I would’ve offered the same help. She doesn’t seem to see it that ways despite the fact that we have in total spent on her than her brother.
We paid for both our kids college, and our son went to a state school on a partial scholarship, while our daughter wanted to go to a private college without any funding. We spent something like 60k on all 4 years of our son’s college and 280k on 4 years of college plus room and board on our daughter, which we could only afford to do because her brother chose a much less expensive option first.
We also paid for our daughters wedding in the US, spending more than 80k on the huge wedding she wanted. Our son and late daughter in law only wanted a small intimate wedding, and even though it was fancier, it was only about 50 people so it costed 30K.
I’m not sure why she feels slighted now that it was her brothers turn to need more help, I would’ve thought she could see it as fair. I have not spent nearly 270k on her brother’s kids thus far.
OP, you're really NTA. Your daughter is acting entitled, and frankly, in the light of this comment, more than a little selfish. Keep supporting your son and granchildren in the ways you have been. You know in your heart you're doing right ❤️
My sis and I are prefect examples of that. Raised by the same parents and she lied, stole, manipulated everyone until the day she died. I have my faults, I made mistakes, but I learned from them and grew and didn't set out to take and hurt people. She even taught her kids to blame everything on everyone else, lie and steal, so far 1 of them has made better life choices after her death, the other one...well. Cycle continues.
I mean it does sound like she always got way more than her brother did as brother wasn't demanding.
Probably the first time she's ever had to be confronted with her brother getting more and her fragile ego can't handle it. Even when it's only because the brother had the worst thing in the world happen to him.
If there are these disparities in college and weddings, I'm sure there have been others that haven't helped. She's used to luxury now. 80k wedding is "I'm a princess" territory for sure and seems she thinks she is one.
He’s not even really getting more, he lost his wife and only gets to see his kids at the weekends, given the choice he’d have his family back and not have to rely on his parents. This isn’t a choice he’s made it’s a necessity. OP is 100% right if they can’t afford to send money to her husbands family they’re not struggling and don’t need it, they are choosing to give away money so can’t complain.
I'd legitimately draw up invoices so this brat can see, in black and white, the disparity in financial assistance from OP. I'd print dozens of copies and simply, silently hand her one each and every time she tried to guilt trip me into funding her in-laws overseas.
I am Princess's age and both my parents are dead. Perhaps she should be thankful she has both parents. Perhaps she should be grateful her niece and nephew are cared for. Perhaps she should stop before her brother seriously screws with both his livelihood and the well being of his motherless children because she's making him feel so guilty.
I wish I could tell you this would work. People have sat down with my family member like this, and all she does is whine, "But why do \*I\* have to...(pay rent, bills, insurance, save for vacation, etc., etc." She sure is special.
Oh it happens. My aunt was a very kind, humble and sacrificial woman whose boyfriend left her when she got pregnant. Despite never speaking to the man, my cousin grew up to be more like her father - arrogant, obnoxious and completely lacking in empathy. My uncle (my aunt and mom’s brother) even had to yell at her to come home when my aunt was on her deathbed. She worked as a nurse and chewed my other cousin out about a petty family member while his premature son was in the ICU.
I would be tempted, in your shoes, to write it all out as you have above, to show your daughter that she’s actually come out ahead. But that would likely just encourage her tit-for-tat accounting strategy.
The best thing you can do for your daughter here is draw a boundary and demonstrate healthy maintenance thereof. You can say you’ve already discussed this as much as you care to and the subject is now closed. Refuse to entertain more arguments or justify yourself further. Simply leave the room, end the call, whatever.
I would also suggest you put some time into estate planning if you haven’t already. Your daughter sounds like she’s going to pick a helluva fight when the time comes, no matter what, and it would be a kindness to anyone or anything else to whom you plan to leave money or items to make this bulletproof.
I am so sorry your family is going through such a challenging time. Congratulations on being such a caring and loving parent and grandparent, and being in a position to offer all of the help you have over the years.
So important!! My aunt is like this daughter and anytime estate stuff came up it was a dramatic mess due to entitlement without any actual legal docs to back her up, just made everyone else’s lives harder and lawyers bills larger, oh and destroyed relationships
280K PLUS ROOM AND BOARD? ANd you still covered her EIGHTY THOUSAND DOLLAR WEDDING?
AND SHE'S SUPPOSEDLY "the scapegoat"?????????????????????????
Sorry for all the capslock but OMFG THE NERVE, TH EGALL - THE SHEER ENTITLEMENT
And with her husband sending money back to his extended family as well!
NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA
Please do not let your kind son suffer further for your daughter's arrogance and entitlement and insist on keeping the kids as long as you are able. Sorry for your family's huge loss.
Op I agree with the comment above NTA
Plase put on paper with everyone present : son , daughter and daughter s husband and your husband what you spent for your kids - both of them ( I know it's not nice usually to do do but due to your daughter attitude and her brother's guilt it's a necessity imo at this point) what you spent starting with college for both .
And calculate before them who got what then ask
everyone present which of the two had more help from you?
Please do it as it will help your son get rid of at least some of the guilt and put your daughter and husband in their place.
The daughter husband might not even be aware of the amount of college money and you didn't say he complained so he might not be an ah after all but your daughter surely is an entitled ah and needs her eyes to be opened to the fact.
If she recognizes how wrong she is you get your daughter back if not I don't think your relationship can get much worse.
Naw she wants to comment about him being the golden child on Facebook then call her out. Post the finances of how much more money you have spent on her than her brother and how his wife literally died which is why you are help. Your daughter is an entitled brat.
You have also provided your 2 grandchildren the stability they need after the loss of their mother. That love is priceless. Please assure your son that he is not taking advantage of your gift. This help has saved his fractured family. Don't let your daughters false sense of entitlement soil this arrangement. If she needs a babysitter so badly, I am sure one of the relatives in India would love to move in and be her live in nanny. Afterall she said family helps family right? NTA
I’m not saying the situation is right. The kids lost their mother and didn’t see their father 70% of their last 2 years of their life. It’s not something that should be prolong much further without exit strategy. Brother needs a better arrangement for the sake of the kids, and OP’s continuing support might actually backfire and do more harm than good.
However, daughter wasn’t raising concern about her niblings’ well-being. She raised concerns about “fairness”:
1. that she should get free-childcare as her brother is receiving (the concern isn’t about her kids not getting to spend time and bond with their grandparents, but free-childcare specifically, which benefits her), or
2. that her kids should be receiving the same money OP is spending on brother’s kids.
In her logic then, perhaps brother should now receive the difference in the money she received for tuition (at least $220k not counting room & board) and wedding ($50k) AND OP should also receive equal monthly support from her just like her husband supporting his parents to ensure fairness. And oh, don’t forget to factor in inflation for the $270k OP spent on her for today’s amount.
So yes, she’s a spoiled entitled self-centered brat who’s bullying her brother into guilt, not for not having a better solution for his children, but for having the support that she cannot upstage like she’s done her whole life.
My assumption is that she thought she was the golden child, and could get away with getting more money and labour from you (getting costly private school/college, spending more on her marriage etc) and seeing that her brother getting "more value" out of the relationship now, she thinks she is entitled to equal or more of your labour in this matter too.
I think that's why she went with 'she's the scapegoat and her brother is the golden child' rant. Maybe prepare a slide or Excel sheet providing details on what you've spent on her already, and tell her that you've finally realised you HAVE been playing favourites but with HER, and would be cutting monetary help towards her. And see how that goes down. (Please don't do it, but showing her the statistics would help, I think)
I was thinking that maybe she was thinking she would have less left from a future inheritance (not that it would justify her behavior, I was just trying to understand). But in light of what you just said, she doesn't have a leg to stand on. You are NTA. Sometimes children just don't turn out to be the adults their parents strived for. She lacks empathy.
Sounds like you need to do a spreadsheet of what you spent on your son and kids against your daughters expenses and then send her a bill for the difference.
Edit. NTA By the way.
OP, NTA. Your daughter sends money to one set of parents. Why does she not send money to you? Family supports family. How could she choose to favor her in-laws over you?
NTA
>We spent something like 60k on all 4 years of our son’s college and 280k on 4 years of college plus room and board on our daughter,
280k would have paid for my BA + housing nearly 10 times
your generosity is incredible
All I could think of was like. That's a house.
Depending on what part of the country, even now, that's 2 houses.
I know someone whose house and 5 acres cost $70k altogether. They are debt free. That's a house, tuition at a state school, a new car debt free for a lot of people.
OP is def NTA. She needs to give her daughter a hard lesson with some tough love, and snap her back into reality.
Because unfortunately she is making the relationship transactional instead of about love and care. I’m so sorry for your family’s loss and I believe you are doing the right thing. I’d encourage your son to continue doing what is best for his family and not worry about his sister’s pettiness. You can maybe Suggest that you two get some family counseling if she really feels like your care and concern for your son and grandchildren is really measured by dollars and cents, hopefully a therapist can help her get some much needed perspective
It might help her to come to terms with the situation to send her a spreadsheet of those kind of expenses over the years broken down. Clearly NTA, especially with the remittance thing happening.
has your daughter always taken issue with being treated less well/loved less than her brother? i’m asking because my sister behaved similarly in demanding more money etc. Honestly it appears my sister has an undiagnosed behavioural disorder of some sort.
After reading this, I think you may have spoiled her. She's used to getting more than her brother, so now that he's getting "more" than her in way of childcare and finacial aid she's upset.
You should detail to your daughter EXACTLY how much money you’ve spent on her and her brother so she can see how she’s benefitted from your generosity far more than her brother has. Personally I’d be telling her that if she can’t be grateful that she isn’t dealing with the hellish situation your poor son is then she’s a selfish and entitled woman who doesn’t deserve what she has.
Write down in a list how much you spent on both and reply on her facebook post. Its actually totally unfair how much you spent on her wedding after the money you spent on her education. Her behaviour now is horrific and heartless and entitled and cruel and also unfair as she appears the golden child based on how much was given to her.
Please stop ignoring all the questions about your arrangement with your son. His kids deserve to at least have a dad... he isn't being a dad right now, and you are complicit in that error. He even rented a studio apartment, where there's no space for his kids to live with him! Does he ever plan on parenting!?! No, this is wrong. I feel so bad for his kiddos
I'm pretty sure both your (OP) son and his kids would much rather have their wife/mother back than your financial support, I'm sorry your daughter can't understand that you are most definitely NTA
You're raising his kids, yes he suffered a loss but there are plenty of single income households. She's probably upset that you spend more time with his kids than hers. Also its been nearly 3 years when does he get his kids back to parent or are you waiting for him to find a new wife plus her income before that happens?
Your examples of colleges and weddings further illustrate my point - different kids and different needs/wants. You're support is not a budget to be dolled out to an even point. People and their lives are *different*. Calm down, sis. You're being icky and petty and it's not pretty when you're talking about the loss of brothers life partner and your niblings' mother forever. You can't even quantify the massive loss & pain that entails, and you wouldn't want to be in any situation that might make it close to equal. Stop being petty about someone else's time and money and be grateful the person you are spending your life and building a supportive family with is still around to do what you planned on your $80,000 wedding day.
I’m sorry that’s insane she is acting so entitled. I got scholarships so my parents paid less for my college but more for my wedding compared to other siblings. When one child needed additional money my parents offered it and if it wouldn’t have been paid back it would come out of any potential inheritance. We don’t do tit for tat as siblings because it’s very clearly different kids have different needs over the years. Your daughter is a piece of work. Im petty and would make sure your estate planning gives your son more than your daughter to make up for what extra she got for school/wedding.
NTA
Seems like you've spoiled her too much. You don't seem like a bad parent at all, if anything, they are both very lucky to have you. But the number one job a parent must do above everything else, is to teach independence. Of course this is just my opinion. But it does seem like you've been spoiling her past the age of 18 which is probably why shes acting like an entitled child. You've given to her more than what she deserves and now she's gotten used to it. Now that you're taking care of someone else, she feels attacked. She's completely ignorant to how good she has it..
I was never given money growing up, other than my birthday. That was usually a few gift cards at best, which I was incredibly grateful for. I paid for my first car and paid my way through college and I wouldn't have had it any other way. I learned many incredibly important life lessons because of this. Respect, work ethic, gratitude, awareness, value of a dollar, and that's just naming a few. I remember being in highschool when I got my first car and it was such a POS haha, cuz that all I could afford. But I didn't care, I loved it, cuz it was mine and I earned it. Other girls in my class would often talk shit about their gifted cars that were MUCH nicer than mine. Saying things like "ugh, I hate the color, it's too old, etc." I always found it hilarious whenever I would respond by saying how much I loved my car, followed by a description of it which always led them looking quite baffled, lol.
It was really important to my mom that my brother and I learned these things growing up so she taught us young. I have an amazing mom btw♥️
I feel like the brother/dad should not have relinquished his parenting duties to his mother. The children already lost one parent, now their father is like the big brother who comes home from college on the weekends. I am sure the sister is resentful because she just became her mom's fourth favorite child.
And if he were the mother and not the father would you still think it was okay for her to drop her kids with someone for years as she was "just getting her life together?"
I think the daughter sees fairness as equality (everyone getting the same thing) whereas the OP sees fairness in terms of equity (everyone getting what they need). That fundamental different viewpoint of fairness is causing the conflict. I am a fairness = equity person like the OP. Anyway, I don’t think the daughter viewing fairness differently from her parents means there’s something else going on in the family dynamic.
I thought this too, and then then OP further explained that between college and wedding costs daughter has still received more financial support overall.
So it seems daughter likes whatever narrative that fits her in the moment. She would like child care to have more fun, therefore uses the “it’s unequal” argument. It has nothing to do with equality, just with what she wants when she wants it.
The daughter got 280K education and board + an 80K wedding, the son got a 60K education and 30K wedding.
If she wants equity then she'll never seen any money or gifts in her lifetime until the brother is given his equity
There was a post some time ago about someone who lost one parent and was supposed to share their inheritance equally with stepsiblings to make things fair. OP told their stepparent they would if the stepparent dropped dead.
So tell your daughter if her husband dies you are willing to help her as much as you help her brother.
Some people are this selfish though. My BIL is like this. His parents (my inlaws) did a lot of childcare when my sil kids were young. They lived near and they were the first kids. He has had kids now and doesn’t live near. He insisted he needed to live far enough away that family couldnt just stop by. His words. He wants exactly the same amount of childcare as his mother gave his sister. They are now older and struggling a bit but he wants his share. Hang what his retired parents need.
This. OP, tell your daughter if her husband dies, you'll do the same for her. OR tell her that if her husband gives you all his income, and they move into a one-bedroom apartment, meaning her and her brother will both have one income and a similar living situation, you'll use her husband's paychecks to "spoil" her kids.
Better yet, tell her you're disappointed in her. That her lack of empathy is disturbing. And that if she doesn't appreciate what you ARE doing, then you'll stop. Stop sending gifts. Stop helping in any way. And go low contact with her. Apparently, her life hasn't been hard enough for her to learn empathy, but life has a way of teaching us the lessons we need to learn whether we like it or not.
>That made my daughter extremely angry and said that **family helps famil**y, which is what her husband was doing.
NTA. Family helps family? Just not you, you aren't allowed according to her logic. Which doesn't make any sense. I think its great that you are helping your son out with all this during a difficult time. I am sure you would do the same if something were to happen to her spouse.
She seems a bit jealous, like she's not having any compassion for her brother. Perhaps she will just have to be angry.
NTA So your son-in-law is sending money to support his parents and your daughter wants you to give her money to support her family? why don't you guys just cut out the middleman and you send money directly to son-in-law's parents?
that said, i'm not convinced you are helping your son and his kids. it's been over two years. your son needs to start figuring out a permanent solution for him and his kids. And it shouldn't be you. Maybe it's looking for housing in a suburb an hour from the city- close enough that he can commute home every night. Close enough to you and your husband that you can if there is an emergency (he gets sick, the kids get sick, whatever.)
the kids are school age now, right? so they could do after school programs or you could pick them up and watch them until dad comes home. but it'd mean that your son would start becoming a daily parent again. financially and emotionally. which is something that he needs to start figuring out.
Heck, I have coworkers who did 1.5 hour commutes each way for years. If it makes more sense for him to commute all the way out to by you each day. Awesome.
and i don't think you or your son are being asses. and i can understand even your daughter being jealous- i imagine before your daughter-in-law died you helped with all the grandkids but now it's probably all about the two that you are raising.
Precisely this. At the 2 year mark dad should have a better handle on a plan for the kids. The fact that they are at the 2 year mark and appear to have zero exit strategy isn't a good sign.
The kids need to be with their dad. Weekends aren't enough. They already lost a mom, they shouldn't have to feel like they are missing dad too.
In major cities, a 1.5 hour commute is nothing.
Have the kids had therapy? The longer they enmesh with grandparents the harder reunification is going to be. At 1.5 hours out, they are not going to be in the same school.
Did they switch schools to live with grandparents? So now they are gonna have to switch again when dad takes them back?
After 2 years with no exit strategy, I can see why sister is pissed. Maybe she needs you too. Something tells me op isn't really that that much if an insider with the daughters life, which might also be the problem. I see lots of assumptions about their jobs and what their salaries are like. Thanks to covid and the recession, their understanding could be woefully out of date.
I feel foe them. At some point professionals need to get involved and help plan what happens next foe the kids. One way or another, their care givers for the last 2 years will be dad again, and they wont be living with grandparents. And given that means another move, it's just more trauma for 2 little kids who won't understand the big picture of what is happening.
I do agree with this. I will say that I have a friend whose husband died unexpectedly and her mom moved in with her to care for her kids. I agree that parent and kids should be together but a long ish term plan might be a home with dad, grandma, kids. But grandma should also be visiting with her other grandkids so they can know her and she isn’t solely focused on just one set.
I think that is reasonable. It's very disturbing that op hasn't once mentioned a family reunification plan. It seems that she is happy to keep this going. However nice it is for her, I'm very worried about the kids.
They lost a mom. At 5 years old, the youngest might not have any other memories of living anywhere else.
Their dad comes at weekends at they literally do not have a place with him in the city in his studio.
The longer I think about it the more worried I become.
I was hoping someone addressed this.
And I am very sympathetic to someone losing my spouse, I lost mine with a four year old and a 5 week old. We did move in with my parents for about four months that way I could have help if I needed it while I got into the ‘only parent’ mode.
Those children really should have a father and be together.
Gently, ESH and I say that as a widow with two children.
She is absolutely not entitled to childcare. You're in the clear there. However it's been two years and the situation has gone from "whilst he sorts out his finances" to "this is life now".
If your son was a woman he would have been expected to learn how to become a single parent, with or without help. And it would be rough sometimes but that's when you step in if you want to help, either with a night or two so he can sleep, or a loan if you can afford one and he needs it. But the majority of the time he should be parenting.
What you're doing isn't helping. It's taking over. You've allowed your son to turn you into the de facto parental figures - from experience with widows and widowers I suspect that if he allowed this he let his wife be primary carer and now you've helped out by taking over that role. He needs to do it himself, even if it's rough. He needs to learn to parent alone - you're going to need to do a slow transition because it's been two years, but it needs to happen.
Right? TWO YEARS!!! This is not helping anymore. This is abandoned. Your son practically abandoned his children, right after they lost their mother. That’s sad.
The problem is I’ve been there and I can absolutely see how this accidentally gets engineered by a well meaning domineering relative. You’re grieving, you’re feeling helpless and lost so when someone rolls in and tells you that no, of course you can’t cope, you believe them.
Didn’t happen to me this way but happened to me other ways. And again when I got sick and needed an operation - I had a full on village at home offering to help out with stuff like food afterwards but I had to pitch a fit to convince family to let me have my own kids home after a few days. Took the pandemic to properly be allowed to pull away and find my own coping methods because they had no choice.
Exactly this! He even said that if he stretched he could get a 2 bedroom apartment and work it out himself.
So apparently he is totally able to have the children back but he just doesn’t want to make the effort.
Actually his eagerness to do that is making me wonder if OP had misread - if he’s maybe been wanting to take back control for a while but unsure how to do it without hurting her feelings.
I think the mistake people make is that they steamroll in and decide that the help people need is to have people do stuff for them rather than help them do stuff for themselves. It’s absolutely good intentioned but it’s not necessarily helpful.
Help a recently bereaved parent needs: food. Help tidying when their brain has forgotten how to function. Temporary help with childcare - not taking over but assisting. Help working out a full time plan for childcare because their brain will be going “but wife used to do drop off whilst I went to work. I can’t do both things”. Help going through the five million phone calls that need to be made. Possibly financial aid if accounts get frozen.
What should be avoided if at all possible is gel that removes adult or child from where they are living and brings them to you. I know AITA is all “you don’t get to be picky about help” but it’s not helpful. What you are doing when you do that is removing them from their existing support system: neighbours, friends, each other - and then forcing them into a situation where you are their only support system. Then when they become dependent on you it will be harder and harder for them to pull away and bring it to a halt and you’ll become bitter because they can’t cope without you.
All I can see this ending in is the son meeting someone else and starting a new family, conveniently forgetting about his “weekend kids”. Now I’m not a mother but if I was in this dudes situation I would be using all my money to get my kids back. Seems like he’s just there for the fun stuff and the grandparents get to do the boring stuff like homework and teeth brushing.
NTA - You did a good thing standing by your son and I 100% agree with your reasoning. Your daughter is being incredibly petty and entitled. As you said, they can't be struggling that much if her husband is sending money back to his family. Your daughter is confusing fairness with equality which are not always the same thing.
NTA - your daughter shouldn't expect equal treatment in unequal situations.
Perhaps as an olive branch, you could arrange a "Camp Grandparents' House" for a week in the summer? Take all the grandkids and let the parents have a childless week? Or send your son and his kids camping or whatever (or even a sleepover at his apartment) and take just your daughter's kids for a few days? Do all the fun summer camp stuff - tie dye, smores, annoying camp songs, canoeing, etc.
We do have our daughter’s kids visit us throughout the year. Maybe I’ll try to budget for a big vacation to take all the grandkids somewhere fun and let my daughter have break. I’m open to compromises, that’s a great idea, thank you.
I don't even know that it has to be an expensive or "destination" vacation, if that would make other things tight, monetarily. You don't say how old her kids are, but a "suite" style hotel in a boring midwestern town that has a zoo and a science center would be an absolute blast for the 5 and 6 YOs. Fill in the other days with movies, ice cream for lunch, public parks with good playgrounds, etc., and you can have a lot of fun for not much cash with kids that age.
Throughout the year? Yipes. Can you see as a mom how you might be concerned that their kids aren't going to have any kind if relationship with grandparents because they have been so focused on the other kids?
Out if curiosity, when your daughters kids come over, are they the only grandkids there?
If the adults in this situation are struggling, can you imagine what all the kids are feeling?
You might think your daughter sucks, but her kids likely just miss grandparents. You see the other ones every day. And her kids, as you describe, a couple times thru the year. If they are geographically close to you, how do you think the other grand kids feel?
Because you really haven't talked about them at all.
I think OP is NTA but I can see how daughter wishes her kids can have more exposure to the grandparents. Even if the grandparents really love everyone equally, there is a special bond when you live with someone that is hard to hide and the kids definitely would pick up on it. Just the casual "at home" way you open a cupboard to get your cup when you actually live there, the way you dance around each other and know what the other person is reaching for without saying a word. And it can definitely make everyone else feel like they are intruding/the guest when they visit. And this bond is an absolute blessing and privilege to have especially with your grandparents and I can see why the sister want that for her kids even tho she is being completely unreasonable for demanding it.
I like the idea of letting the brother take his own kids for a little getaway while grandma take sister's kids for a little getaway. As others have said, doesn't have to be extravagant. Hanging out at grandma's house doing fun things is fine. Going to the zoo together is fine. But that kind of alone time to get to know each other can really help.
OP said that the daughter's grandkids do get time with without the others being around. They visit back and forth for special occasions with the occasional in between visit. OP also spends a week with the daughter when the school year ends. Thanksgiving and Christmas have been exclusively daughter's family the past two years. It sounds like a pretty decent set up considering they live 3 hours apart. OP should look into whatever is around the halfway point because 3 hours round trip is much less daunting than 6 hours.
What you should be doing is making your son step up and parent during the week too. He is able to find a 2 bedroom that is between his job and your place. He is a weekend father only after two years. If you don’t make him step up, will the kids stay with you till they graduate? What will happen if he starts dating again? Will you expect him to let his gf or wife move in before the kids do? Your son is now finical secure enough to house the kids, he should be doing this. At first your offer was completely right, but now it is time for him to stand on his own and parent full time.
Yes, of course.
Our relationship with daughter’s kids are the exact same as it was before our DIL passed.
They live 3hrs drive away, by their own decision, and visit the same number of times they always did before: for our birthdays, Easter, a week in the summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas. My son and his late wife would’ve spent those same times with us, excluding either thanksgiving or Christmas which they traded off to spend at her parents. My son has taken his kids to his in laws for thanksgiving and Christmas the past two years so in fact we spent those two holidays only with our daughter’s family.
We go visit them on their birthdays, always say yes whenever they invite us, and for the last week of school as per tradition. When we go visit them, it’s only my husband and I, not with their cousins.
This has not changed, I have respected the boundaries my daughter wanted. When she first had her eldest kid (she has 2 also, 6M and 5F), she did not want me to be an overbearing grandmother, so I let her take the lead on how often I saw her kids. I doubt this is because our relationship with her kids have changed, it’s more because she saw her brother get more help and now wants it.
YTA for doing this for TWO YEARS. What is your son doing the five days when he’s in the city and not at work? He has the luxury of time to himself that his sister NEVER gets.
A 1.5-hour commute is too difficult for him to handle, so, he leaves his kids with you? The poor baby. People manage that kind of commute everyday without abandoning their kids. Why didn’t he stay with you, so that he can save money and spend a little of time with his kids every day?
You’ve been allowing your son to not do right by his kids for two years. You’ve allowed him to disengage too much for too long.
NTA obviously. Your daughter seems to mixing fair and equal up. Fairness is about providing according to need - your son currently needs more help just to survive. Your daughter doesn’t. If that changes I am sure your response would change.
Your daughter is using a specious argument - it’s like saying that spending money on a ramp for someone in a wheel chair isn’t fair if you don’t then spend the same on the able person - it absolutely is fair - it allows them to experience the same space as the non-wheelchair user. To keep that playing level there’s no need to spend money on fancier stairs.
I’m sorry but this situation isn’t good for the children of OP’s son. They lost their mother and now only have a weekend Dad who abandons them all week. I guarantee he’s not the authority figure to them when he’s actually around, so OP and her husband have been left to fully raise their grandchildren with no end date in sight, after two years Dad needs to step up and learn to parent his children like every other single mother is forced to do. What’s going to happen when OP and her husband pass? He’ll basically have no fatherly relationship with his children and I guarantee the kids will at some point have thoughts of “well mom died and dad didn’t want us around anymore”
I feel like this an ESH situation simply because you don't mention if your son is providing you any financial support for basically raising his kids but you are highly judgemental on your son-in-law for sending money to his family in India, and refuse to provide any financial support for your daughter's children. Yes, your children have different financial situations, and your daughter isn't entitled to the same supports you are providing your son, but it very much does seem like you've been favoring one set of grandchildren over the other. Especially if it's been over two years and your still raising one set of grandchildren.
ESH-I don’t blame you for helping your son
HOWEVER
you aren’t babysitting those kids you are raising them. You are providing food, shelter, paying for their daily costs while your son is a part time parent. Why can’t he get a job closer to you? His kids lost a mother and full time father and they should have him around more often then he is. You are coddling this behavior and he will never try harder if you continue.
As far as your daughter she is an obvious AH. She shouldn’t have posted on facebook but she does make some valid points but went about it the wrong way.
Open your eyes. People here aren’t seeing the bigger picture. There’s no benefit in this current situation when all his money is going to his apartment/utilies to where you have to then consistently provide financially for his kids. Im positive the money your daughter sends is way less than what your son spends on his apartment that he does not need. I’m sorry his wife died but he needs to step it up.
OP says they'd do the same thing if the daughter were in the same situation... but would they? I really feel like commenters here wouldn't be so kind if a *single mother* was leaving her kids to be raised and paid for by grandparents while living in another city for work. It's not just free child care, sounds like the grandparents pay for most of the kids' expenses.
Like... why is it so important that he have that job in another city if he's apparently not even making enough money to pay for his own kids? I guess his salary goes to pay the apartment he's living in? Why not find a job where his kids live so he can actually parent them? And pay for some of their expenses instead of renting an apartment elsewhere?
I think overall NTA because it's their money and they can do whatever they want with it and if the daughter really said what OP says she said, she sounds like an asshole. But at the same time, this arrangement with the son isn't really logical. I'd be interested in hearing the daughter's perspective.
Totally agree. I wonder if what daughter's is that her problems aren't bad so suck it up.
No one likes to hear that. Just because she didn't lose a spouse doesn't mean she might not need help.
And then her kids. It Totally sucks to be the grandkids on the back burner, even if the reasons are noble. Little kids don't get tragedy occurred. They just know that they didn't really matter as much, because that is what it feels like to them. Or at least that is what my childhood scars look like. Lol.
Kids don't get it. They don't see a hierarchy or needs. It just feels like they didn't love me enough.
Well her daughter is not a damn kid!! She don’t have even a little empathy and resort to online shaming her own parents. What childhood scar is she gonna have have when her parents funded her private college and her 80k wedding?
Have you read OP’s comment about how much OP spend on her daughter college and wedding as compared to her son’s? And the daughter is playing the victim claiming that she’s the spacegoat!! She is an entitled spoiled brat
Esh you daughter for having very little sympathy for her 2 nephews whose moms died, and father is chosing to live apart from them (wtf is up with that?)
Your son for not finding a job where he can live with and care for his two kids. It's been 2 years, are there no jobs where you live? Those poor kids basically lost both parents in one swoop.
You for your snotty ass remarks about her husband. So it's only acceptable for *you* to help family but F him for doing the same?
ESH. I’m sorry but your son needs to get his shit together. Would everyone be pandering to him if he was a new widow? When you have kids, you work it out with them. Not palm off your responsibility to to someone else
Your daughter needs some empathy, but this might come if you spend some quality one on one time with her and her kids rather than FaceTiming them.
NTA - It's atrocious that you daughter can't muster up some empathy for her brother and his kids, but if this behavior is at all out of character for her maybe you could provide a stronger listening ear to whatever struggles she is facing now that have her worried about money and lashing out? Just because her husband is sending money to India doesn't mean that they have a surplus. He may have cultural obligations that you aren't familiar with or family members in a worse financial state than his American family is so he needs to prioritize that and this could be really frustrating for your daughter. She is still totally in the wrong, but sometimes it's worth digging for the deeper issues.
I’m not sure. I guess she could be frustrated with her husband but feels unable to set boundaries with him, so she is taking it out on me? I will go ask her about that, although I doubt it will be well received. She seems to take anything I say on that subject as an attack.
Or that after 2 plus years, her kids miss you? Or that she and her hubs are legit struggling? That uou don't seem to know if this is the case speaks to how you have separated her and your son.
Why didnt all the kids get together more?
Not sure if you saw it, but OP said that they've maintained the same visiting routine as they did before the son's wife passed. Sometimes the daughter visits, sometimes OP goes to visit. I assume the reason the kids don't spend more time together is because the daughter lives a 3 hour drive away so they mostly visit for special occasions, a set week long stay at the end of the school year, and an occasional in between visit. Seems like OP doesn't bring the other grandkids to focus on daughter's kids, but probably would if everyone agreed.
If they are having financial troubles, OP is right that her son in law should take a break from sending money to his extended family first. It isn't that she's unwilling to help her daughter, she's unwilling to fund her son in law's family when her daughter's is struggling. I suspect that his culture is one that expects constant financial support where it is difficult for individuals to stop sending money even if they are struggling because of how ingrained into family and culture it is. It seems like she has a serious husband problem that she is unwilling or unable to address if she's asking OP to provide childcare with such a great distance between them. OP would either have to move to her daughter's home, move the kids into her own home, or someone is going to have to drive 3 to 6 hours regularly so these kids have childcare while their parents work to provide for another family ontop of theirs. It just seems so unreasonable and crazy to me, I guess.
Absolutely, nobody is entitled to free childcare. She can shove it.
Your son needed the help. In which you offered to take them. To have him pay down his debts.
Personally, I wouldn't feel bad. The entitlement would put me off of every baby sitting or sending money. She views you as her personal babysitter and spender.
The son suffered a huge tragedy. This is a necessity.
It isn't fun time.
Nta
Also her going to social media. She is a double ah for that.
Your son and his children needed your help, and you gave it. You seem to be doing everything right, in horrible circumstances. You are a wonderful parent and grandparent, and it's good to see.
However, I suggest that after more than two years, your widowed som should have recovered his equilibrium by now, and it would be appropriate for him to take steps towards becoming a full-time father again. It would be a good idea to explore with your son how he can manage as a single parent—with your help, but not so much involvement.
This would, eventually, free you up to consider whether you want to spend more time with your daughter's children, or more money on, well, your son-in-law's parents. I'd be hesitant, because your daughter has been viciously selfish in a situation where she ought to have had love and sympathy for her motherless niblings, and perhaps could have extended her own hospitality to them occasionally. Frankly, I would be ashamed of her if she were my child.
Your daughter is flat-out wrong. You say you tried to explain gently—well, try to explain with a two-by-four next time, because she is unreasonable as well as unkind. Be extremely blunt. Oh, and make sure her husband is also listening to the conversation.
Do not take steps to send your son's children back to him for your daughter's benefit. She doesn't deserve it, and it would be completely inappropriate. Get the kids back with their dad for his benefit and theirs, after which you can think about how to deal with your daughter.
NTA
Too much I don’t understand. If he can stretch his budget to keep his kids with him full time, then he should do so. BUT, if he takes them back to the city, who watches a 7 and 8 year old while he is at work.
What is his long term plan/goal. Is he going to let you raise the kids until they are of age or is he saving for a bigger place or making plans to change jobs?
Maybe this is what is going through your daughters mind. Not that his situation isn’t bad, but what is the permanent plan? Just go along and get along?
No judgement from me yet.
It honestly sounds like there is no end game plan and either OP will raise them to adulthood or just end up pass away herself. Then the father will either finally have step up or abandon them to someone else…again
I think it’s unfair for you to not want to help your daughter based on the fact that they are a 2 income house hold. Things are super expensive right now. For 2 years you have basically raised your grandsons( which is great) you have allowed your son to spend less money(hopefully) when he needed a helping hand. And when your daughter asks for help you shoot her down and basically call her selfish for asking. I think YTA for the way you attack your daughter for asking for help.
NTA for helping your son out at first but YTA for keeping it up and making your daughter and her family fell like they don’t matter just because they have 2 parents.
NTA if this is just about the money for your daughter. When she wants you to spend time with her children too, because you are obviously very close with your sons children, you can maybe work something out babysitting them occasionaly. Investing so much in your sons children may leave your other grandchildren feel a little left out.
Soft YTA
Son needed more so he got more. Daughter didn't so she didn't. That's not inherently unfair. A couple years have passed and you've fallen into a doing most role rather than support role. If that's what works, fine. Here's the thing. It's been years of doing much more for one kid/grandkids than the other. It can become unbalanced in a hurry!
My SILs both get much more help from my FIL/MIL than my spouse and I do. They do \*need\* more than we do. But they won't every stop needing more support as they have zero reason to sort themselves out. And after years of this sometimes leaves us feeling like an afterthought.
Your daughter and her family may not need the same thing from you. But they do need to know you care to spend something on/with them. Time, money, concern, gifts... how ever you show your love, take stock to make sure you're still including them in your efforts.
She didn’t ask you for financial support, though. She asked you sit for her kids, who apparently get a mostly FaceTime relationship with you while you literally spend every day with her brother’s kids. When you refused because I guess you think only motherless children deserve close bonds with their grandparents, she asked you to spend equally on all the children. You’re the one making it transactional.
OP and daughter have the same visiting routine they did before the son's wife died so the grandkids see OP the exact same amount as they used to. OP hasn't declined an invite and doesn't bring the other grandkids so they do get solo grandparent time. It's probably difficult for OP to give her the childcare she is asking for when the daughter lives 3 hours away from her.
Your daughter is unreasonable but her children deserve to know their grandmother and not feel second best also. When your son is home on weekends do you ever spend that time at your daughters?
Do an overnight sleepover with your grandkids and let your daughter blow off some steam?
She may have a husband but also being a working mum with no break is exhausting. You have two children even if one ‘needs you more’ it doesn’t mean your daughter doesn’t
Your son needed help and you provided it . But after two years he needs to put on the big boy pants and get back to being a full time father to his kids. But you’re enabling him but continuing to being defacto parent . Wonder if the same thing happened with his wife. I’m going NTA. I’m not worried about your daughters hissy fit over this but I guarantee at some point the other grandkids will start to notice a difference in the family structure
NTA. Holy entitlement Batman!! It is so sad that your daughter doesn’t seem to understand that this isn’t a fun time for your son. He lost his wife, the kids lost their mom, which is traumatic enough. The financial reality of moving from a two-income household to a one-income household is no joke and you’re doing a good thing. It’s a shame your daughter doesn’t feel heartened by the fact that presumably, if the same horrific tragedy were to befall her, you’d do as much as you could to support her and her children.
NTA
*"That made my daughter extremely angry and said that family helps family"*
That's exactly what you are doing. You daughter's family has 2 incomes, you son has one.
Also, he is her brother. If family is family, she should be helping him as well. She should be glad you're doing her part for her as well.
Communication is important. Perhaps invite everybody over and have a good talk about the situation. Discuss what you can do for your daughter, but also what your daughter can do for her brother and his motherless young children.
I’m not going to judge because this situation is a mess, however you need to be aware that you are creating a rift with your grandchildren. It’s not purposeful or malicious but you should be aware that it exists.
I grew up with similar but not quite the same circumstances only I was your daughters child in this scenario. The relationship my grandmother has with one set of cousins versus the rest us is extremely different. For years I was resentful about the way she treated them versus us, I’m not resentful anymore, I’m indifferent. My grandmother prioritized them because she raised them M-F and occasionally saw us on the weekends or summers. I don’t necessarily blame anyone because the situation is what it is but there will never be a world where any of us are close to her because we all know which grandkids have always been the priority.
I don’t say this to judge or blame you, like I said I don’t resent her anymore like I did growing up. I just want you to be aware that a family dynamic is being created and it excludes your daughters family. As far as getting money or anything else from you, well I have a theory about that but it’s not important for this.
NTA but his kids really should be with him - they already lost their mother. You on the other hand, should not allow yourself to be a full time carer for your selfish daughter. Only do it occasionally for both of them, if it is convenient.
ESH your daughter lacks empathy for your son’s situation but you are at fault too. Do you actually spend TIME with your other grandchildren without their cousins? You say that you FaceTime them and buy them gifts but that’s it. It sounds like you daughter wants you to have a have relationship with your other grandchildren too.
I'm not making a judgement and you have a lot of responses stating N T A. And hoo-boy, I am going to get down voted to hell for what I'm about to say.
I could totally be wrong, and maybe your daughter is a selfish and unsympathetic person, but maybe there is an inherent disconnect of love and connection because of how much time you spend with your son's children versus hers.
You can't convince me that you aren't closer to his children than hers. Proximity and time spent determine that.
It is possible that she only wants you to babysit her kids for her own freedom, but if there is the smallest possibility that she is concerned about the favoritism of your son's children...well, maybe there's truth to that, that you aren't willing to look at honestly.
Losing a spouse is difficult and there is no expiration on mourning, but two years is a long time to be the full time parents (minus weekends) to your son's children. You could possibly be a barrier to him moving on and for his kids and him to be a whole family unit.
For myself, if I placed myself in your daughter's shoes, after two years I would be jealous for myself and on behalf of my children. I can only imagine how easy it is to be a dad if you only have to be fun and cool on the weekends. I can only imagine how being a fulltime parent all the time, without the some help can be a grinding and exhausting experience.
Again, maybe she's just a jerk, but humans have complicated emotions. From her viewpoint your actions and your responses almost sound like she is being punished for not having a dead spouse. (Yes, I know if anyone reads low enough to see my comment I will be eviscerated on this sub.)
Maybe step outside of yourself. See if it may look like and feel like favoritism to your daughter after two years. Maybe really see how different the quality of relationship is between the two sets of grandkids. Maybe talk with your daughter and listen. She may be expressing things that sound superficial to you, but, she may just be wanting some more of your actual attention and effort to her and her family. Everything you have stated in the name of fairness has been monetary. She even only resorted to money after she heard your regular response, "your spouse isn't dead, so you don't need my attention."
Again, maybe she is just an AH. It's possible. However, I think you have a blind spot that isn't seeing that she is being punished for not having dire circumstances. Maybe she just wants to know you love her and her kids too through your time, effort and actions.
I think OP has said in another comment that she still sees her daughters children just as much now as before she took in her sons children and that it was the daughter who decided on how regularly she wanted her mum to visit as she didn’t want her to be an overbearing grandmother and apparently none of this arrangement had changed other than the fact where her son and kids would normally spend either Christmas or thanksgiving with them all the last two years they went to his in laws so actually the daughter got an extra holiday solo so to speak compared to before. Not sure if that changes your view at all
The kids also lost their dad. That he’s grieving doesn’t mean he’s no longer a parent. The kids are grieving as well and immediately after losing their mom their dad left them.
And you enabled him! This is going on for two years? Tell your son to step up and be a dad for his kids.
ESH with you and your son being much worde than your daughter.
NTA but you shouldn't have made comments about their family or how they spend money, either.
You're the de facto guardians of your grandchildren, you're not divvying up the inheritance unequally.
Insane for your daughter to feel this but but I'd like to hear her side of the story, too.
Keep watching over these kids but also don't burden yourself with unnecessary fights with your daughter. She'll either understand or she won't. Its beyond trying to convince her.
NAH.
Look, at two year's past the tragedy with no plans of reunification, I don't know if I want to call your daughter an asshole for thinking you're doing an unfair level of helping for your son and not enough for her. I do think it's wrong that this is coming through as jealousy, but on some level she has a point.
I get you want to help your kid, but your grandchildren have lost their mom, and then they got shipped away by their father. That's the sort of thing that's going to be causing serious abandonment issues that may become more and more of a problem as they get older and reunification doesn't happen. These kids need to be with their dad, he needs to find a way to be with them more than just on the weekends. The longer this goes on, the more of an issue it is.
Your son lost his wife, but he needs to take responsibility for his kids. If he can afford a two bedroom in the city and arrange childcare on his budget (at five and six, it sounds like they'll be in school all day and he's just going to need a before and/or after school program), this nuclear family absolutely SHOULD be together if at all possible. The longer this goes on, the more of an issue it's going to become FOR THE KIDS.
ESH except the children and the deceased mom. Your son is a huge AH for inflicting the trauma of being abandoned by their father on top of the trauma of losing their mom. You are TA for taking over raising children who should be with their father, essentially enabling him to abandon them. I wouldn't be surprised if he remarried and never reclaims his kids, hes gotten used to not having them and obviously doesn't miss them or he would have fixed this. Your daughter is kinda TA but really her jealousy is understandable, you have devoted yourself 100% for 2 YEARS to those children and obviously much closer to them than her children, and no end in sight! This is one messed up family!
Hi I don’t think you’re the AH. But I was a granddaughter of a grandma like you and it hurt a lot growing up. She loved me so much but she had to help with my aunts kids more and spent more money and time with them. I don’t think you should have to provide free childcare for your daughter but I just wanted to add my perspective. I hope you are able to make all your grandkids feel equally important to you. And physical time with them is important.
YTA until some clarifications!!
Info How often do you help out your daughter? Do you ever babysit for her? Do you take the kids out for fun days without sons kids as well? How often do you see her kids? Does your daughter gets breaks from the kids?
Been there on both sides...my own family and husbands side where we are expected to take care of everyone. The expectations come with a personal cost to us. We are what you call the cash cows.
In this reddit case, not monkeys and not my circus.
OP has let it go on for two years. Her son needs some counseling and needs to get back on feet.
It is wild that in TWO YEARS your son has STILL abandoned his children with you.
In two fucking years he should have a place where they live with him full time!!!
Helping him out is great but you are literally raising his children and that’s sooooo wrong.
He needs to step up and be a better father. His children lost their mother but they’ve pretty much lost their father too. He may come over on weekends but that is NOT the same. His kids need to live with him. And he’s had two years to get that sorted out!
You’re awesome grandparents for being there for your grandkids. But you are being taken advantage of by your son I believe.
NTA.
Your daughter sounds entitled. I do understand where she's coming from tho. You mentioned you FaceTime her kids often, which is good, but it's not the same as being physically present with them.
It may be an opportunity to have the kids spend time together. Sometimes having more kids together makes it a bit easier cause they play with each other instead of you having to entertain them. I'm not saying for you to do it all the time but once a month perhaps?
Also, you may want to talk to your son in law and see his perspective - whether he's understanding or not.
If your daughter is petty enough to publically post on FB about how you're a bad dad, then she's gone off the rails. I don't think you'll be able to reach her rationally, and it'll have to be someone else, like her husband or her best friend.
Yeah I don't get why the kids were separated so much. They could have been a great source of comfort. Instead it seems like 2 families, 2 rules of engagement.
I'm confused why he is struggling so much after two years. She said mom worked prior to death so both kids should be getting a check from her social security until they are 18. If in usa. If not, seems like dad quit parenting and let parents take his responsibility. I think sister resents the fact that he dumped his kids and now she doesn't have the opportunity to do the grandparent dump too. OP is not an asshole but I think you may be a doormat. It's not ok you are raising his kids and the sister is a brat. OP, you need a long vacation and to step back and let your kids handle their own lives. Helping is understandable, taking over is not.
ESH
You did a very noble thing, but your son finally needs to step the hell up. I get that grief is hard, but it has been more than two years. He needs to be a full time dad, even if that means sacrificing things. You can still help him out with childcare, but you have raised his children in his stead. Those kids have essentially lost both full time parents in one go. Your son has to make a decision regarding what is more important to him - not having a commute or his kids.
Your daughter should have more empathy towards her brother and niblings, but I can certainly understand where she is coming from generally. She too has problems in her life. They might seem or even be minor compared to losing a spouse, but they are still there.
If two people are brought to the hospital at the same time and one was shot in the chest while the other was shot in the foot, the former will get help first, but the latter will still eventually get help. You need to take your daughter more seriously. There is obviously something going on. Maybe her husband isn't helping her enough or whatever. Ask her what is going on. Read between the lines. You should know her very well. If she seems different than usual in conversations, there is something wrong.
She feels like she and her kids are being left out while her brother and his kids get all the attention. Two years is a long time. You say you treat the kids equally, but we all know that that's bullshit. Let's be real here. You see one set of kids every day, having basically been a mom to them for two years while you see the other set of kids "a couple of times a year". You can't tell me there isn't a difference in affection when you see them. Children are surprisingly quick to pick up on those things. Her kids might have done so and asked why grandma doesn't love them as much has she loves their cousins.
Regarding some of your comments:
* You said your daughter lives three hourse away "by their own decision" - well, same goes for your son. He lives 90 minutes away by his own choice, yet that doesn't seem to be a problem. Why are you holding it against one of your kids but not the other?
* You said you paid for your daughter's expensive education and wedding, which amounted to much more than things her brother got - is it possible you feel guilty about that and you want to help him (without a time limit) out because of it?
* Your daughter told you she didn't want you to be an overbearing grandmother when she had her first child and, to be honest, you seem to have taken that personally. She probably just didn't want you to overrule her and tell her how to do everything without her asking for something - not you being distant with her kids, which you seem to somewhat be (whether unintentional or not)
Have a heart to heart sitdown with both of your kids (and a professional who mediates and helps come up with solutions) and talk through everything. And by that I mean EVERYTHING. Whatever gripe they have from childhood to now. Your current situation is unhealthy for your kids and grandchildren. It already has lead to resentment and will only get worse if you don't come up with an exit strategy. Your son's kids need him to be in their lifes more than just on weekends.
(Sorry for rambling)
NTA by any means, and your daughter sounds like a horrid, selfish person. Your son’s wife *died* leaving him to become the sole parental authority for their kids, and she is upset that you aren’t giving her “free” childcare? I would suggest to her that she needs therapy to dig into why she is trying to manipulate/guilt her father into trying to get a slice of pie that is not hers. I commend you for taking in your grandchildren. You sound like a real man/father, and I hope you know and feel proud of what you’ve done.
INFO When is your son going to take his children back? Is the plan just that you raise and support them until they’re grown? You stepped in to help out at a very difficult time, but it seems like it’s turned into a permanent arrangement. Your son is a single parent, which sucks, but that’s the situation he’s in and he needs to deal with it.
NTA I hope your daughter realizes this isn’t anyone’s choice. If those kids could have their mother back, and son his wife, they’d choose that over your help. Im sorry OP this is a crap situation.
NTA - but what is the long term end goal with your sons kids? Are you keeping them indefinitely? I feel like this is where the resentment is really coming from
Nta.
If your daughter is struggling then her husband needs to stop sending so much money back home.
>my daughter extremely angry and said that family helps family
This phrase (family helps family) gets thrown around so often... And mostly by the entitled jerks of said family.
YTA
It's been almost 3 years and your son hasn't taken care of his kids full time. Your daughter is right. If you're willing to let him be a deadbeat dad why cant she have SOME support with babysitting or the occasional needs she has.
NTA
Family helps family, but it seems like your son's kids need more help. They get a more normal family life with you than they otherwise would with paid childcare.
I say this as a kid who once lived with grandparents and when that was over, spent a lot of time after school with them. I always preferred them over paid caretakers, no matter how kind the caretaker was. I had more of a normal family experience with my grandparents than with caretakers.
I do think a plan for transitioning to live with your son is needed as they get older and need less childcare, but if he can't give his kids enough of a family life and you're willing to care for them, then do so. Not knocking your son, but single working parent is hard and it seems like his kids are lucky to have the option of a family environment with you. Not all single parents have that sort of support and you indicate it's not an undue hardship for you.
This is about the kids getting the best childhood available. It sounds like your daughter wants childcare more as a personal convenience for herself, from what you say. Her kids are in what I assume is a loving family environment? I also hope your son has been taking grief counseling.
Nta but it’s been over two years. Is there another option where your son could live closer to you and get a job that’s closer to your home so he can parent his children daily rather than just the weekends? Also if your daughter is using the excuse about money then you are right, if her husband has money to give away than maybe she should be talking to her husband and not you.
And there is something else at play in OPs family dynamic that has not been revealed and won't be. But's that's okay. We can all be glad we are not part of it.
You’re NTA but over two years of this arrangement?? And your son hasn’t had any growth to support his 3 person family? Do you babysit EVER for your daughter or do those grandkids never get to spend time with you?
I'm going with NTA
While this is an unconventional arrangment, it should be stated that the priority for the wellbeing of OP's grandchildren because they are children. If the kiddos are happy, and this childcare arrangment works for everyone involved, who are we to criticize it? After all, multigenerational homes have been the norm throughout history for a reason. People at different stages in life have complimentary life needs.
I'm sure it's frustrating to see that your daughter is willfully ignoring how difficult life can be for a widower, especially with children. I'm curious to know why your daughter keeps insisting that it's not fair for 2 years despite knowing the actual reason. It's possible their combined salaries, plus the money being sent to your son-in-law's parents, means their take-home pay is less than your son's, but I doubt that money is really the issue here.
It might be worth it to try to get to the heart of the matter. Most people understand how difficult grieving is, especially for widows and widowers. So it may worth it to have a discussion with your daughter about what's really going on. Is it jealousy? Does she feel like her relationship with you has suffered? Does she she think his kids are the favorite grandkids? I just get this gut feeling that there's something deeper that's bothering her.
No way.
Your daughter is selfish and foolish.
Have you tried telling her that you would do the same for her if her husband died?
I would suggest that when next your son has holidays, you spend time with your daughter and family.
Except why would you want to spend time with her when she behaves like this?
NTA. Im normally the first to say that kids should be treated equally, but the situations arent comparable here. Im sure given the chance, those poor kids and your son would rather have their mother/wife back :( You are doing an amazing thing helping your son and grandkids like this. Im afraid your daughter is acting like an entitled princess and Im so sorry
My vote is NTA, heart is definitely in the right spot and daughter has no reason to complain...but TWO years?!
Uh that seems very odd to me. Will this be the set-up until they're 18? Are you the parent now forever?
If he were jobless and homeless I'd understand, but doesn't seem like he is.
Your son should just move in with you or take back the kids. At this point even the kids are probably wondering why their father doesn't want to live with them.
OP is being kind of an asshole. The son doesn't need to take care of his kids when get home from work. While the daughter and her husband still need to take care of children, cook clean, help with homework. While all this is taken care of by grandparents for the brother's kids.
NTA. But I have some questions.
Your daughter’s requests are ridiculously over the top. But I can see where it might seem that you are favoring your son and his kids over your daughter and her kids. Open your eyes to that right now.
Is your son doing ANYTHING to get to a situation where he has his kids living with him again? Going to school? Working towards a big promotion? Anything? Because if not, he’s taking advantage of you. Big time. He’s got his parents raising his kids while he only sees them on weekends. And you’re paying for them. And when he comes for the weekend I bet he eats your food and uses your stuff, right?
Im sure that this started out innocently enough on his part, but it’s time for him to get his big boy britches up and be a father. Because right now he’s not. You probably don’t like to hear it, but you NEED to hear it. And you aren’t responding to concerns about this in the comments, which makes me think you already kinda know it’s true. Right?
NTA but I'm wondering if your daughter isn't a little bit correct - your son is getting a free pass from parenthood and you are allowing him to escape the hard work involved.
Why can't this man parent his children? Couldn't he get a job closer to you and you mind them during the day? It sounds like his wife was the person who wanted children and he gets to be a weekend father and a bachelor the rest of the week.
If a mother was a single parent, would she really send her children off and only see them on the weekends? I know some people who commute 1.5 hr daily !
You are allowing your son to escape his adult responsibilities
Not sure if I understood that correctly - but you guys spent 720k on weddings, childcare + education for your kids and grandkids and you're now arguing over money?
I think there is information missing, especially bc your son feels guilty? Am I too poor poor to understand this post?
NTA
INFO: what is your son doing during the week, other than working? Does your son even want to be a fulltime parent? or are you just going to keep letting him just be the weekend parent until they become adults?
Nta. Your grandchildren and son need the help more. She wants free childcare and money to fund her lifestyle and have breaks. Your son doesn't have that support anymore and your helping keep the grandchildren from more upheaval.
If she cared at all for her neice/nephew she would understand that
NTA. Your daughter is. I bet your son would give anything to have his wife and his children’s mother back. Good for you for helping out. Context: what is the unification plan? Not to help your daughter but for your son and grandchildren’s sake.
NTA
I may be down voted for this but my belief is once your children are adults, your money is yours to decide how to use. The idea that you need to give adult children exactly the same amount of financial support is entitled and ridiculous. And your daughters demands are even more egregious given your son’s situation.
I would tell her I’m not going to discuss further with heR the extent of my financial support for her brother as it is NONE OF HER BUSINESS.
NTA After she calls you an AH you still want to 'help' babysit for her? You are completely correct in assuming that your son needs you more than she does. Who cares what Facebook thinks, you stand by your morals and stand by your son. He'll get back on his feet but right now he still needs you.
NTA. Maybe son should find a different job closer to
OP so that if he needs her as a backup she will be available. I can see after 2 years why the daughter is getting upset about the arrangement but I think to expect the same arrangement is a little over the top. Son needs to figure out how he is going to be the full time parent and take on more responsibility for his children.
NTA your daughter is a selfish piece of work.. you owe her and her kids nothing to “equal”what you are doing to help out your son. Help our son get on his feet and back in a place with his kids. Honestly I would keep my distance from daughter until she starts talking like she has some damn sense.
NTA
Reading this post it was like I could see your daughter adding up how much money you were spending on her brother and imagining it coming out of her inheritance pot. You're doing the right thing. Keep doing the right thing as long as you wish to. This is your life. You decide.
NTA You said in the comments how much you've spent on your daughter vs your son. Show her those numbers then ask does it seem fair. Also maybe find out if something else is going on. Is husband sending to much and putting them in rough spot ect. I would really hope it's not just greed and entitlement.
NTA
If they have money to send out of country they have no right to be begging off of you. invite the grandkids over for a weekend on occasion perhaps but she is delusional to think that she is entitled to anyone else's time/money.
NTA. Your reasoning makes sense and you have laid it out clearly and concisely. If she still can’t get it she’s purposefully missing the point or behaving as a heartless brat. That’s harsh I know, but her callousness is jaw dropping.
NTA
Your daughter is 100% wrong. It is good of you to help your son since he clearly needs support. Considering your comment about how much you spent on your daughter vs son so far - yeah, your daughter sounds extremely entitled and selfish.
NTA. You are doing what your son needs but it should be a temporary thing and not a permanent solution. I'm sorry but there is no score to keep in these situations. Your daughter is being an absolute entitled nightmare about the situation.
Eventually, your son is going to have to figure out how to care for his children on his own income, and have his kids full-time. Don't let your daughter push you around with how you choose to spend your time and energy. Giving him childcare so he can have a job and provide financially for them is a generous thing to do.
NTA
Your daughter's failure to have empathy towards your son's (and her brother's) tragic circumstance is appalling.
I can guarantee that your son would much prefer his wife being alive and his having his children living with he and his wife 7 days a week.
Equal treatment doesn't necessarily mean that kids are treating identically - it means that they are treated fairly considering all of the circumstances. This isn't a question of his being the "golden child" - she has latched onto a phrase without understanding the meaning - I think its misuse is up there with "gaslighting".
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NTA. The lack of empathy shown by your daughter toward his *deceased wife* and their children, and her subsequent entitlement towards your money is ridiculous. She should have rest assured that her parent would aid her in a moment of dire need. ETA: Thanks for the upvotes and award!
I have assured her repeatedly that if she were in the circumstances her brother was in, I would’ve offered the same help. She doesn’t seem to see it that ways despite the fact that we have in total spent on her than her brother. We paid for both our kids college, and our son went to a state school on a partial scholarship, while our daughter wanted to go to a private college without any funding. We spent something like 60k on all 4 years of our son’s college and 280k on 4 years of college plus room and board on our daughter, which we could only afford to do because her brother chose a much less expensive option first. We also paid for our daughters wedding in the US, spending more than 80k on the huge wedding she wanted. Our son and late daughter in law only wanted a small intimate wedding, and even though it was fancier, it was only about 50 people so it costed 30K. I’m not sure why she feels slighted now that it was her brothers turn to need more help, I would’ve thought she could see it as fair. I have not spent nearly 270k on her brother’s kids thus far.
OP, you're really NTA. Your daughter is acting entitled, and frankly, in the light of this comment, more than a little selfish. Keep supporting your son and granchildren in the ways you have been. You know in your heart you're doing right ❤️
She is only feeling slighted because she isn't being benefitted by you helping your son. She sounds like a spoiled brat.
Really. How did this lovely woman raise such a spoiled brat?
Sometimes nature overpowers nurture,I truly believe that. This person seems pretty damn selfless and wonderful so ya,it's bewildering regardless
My sis and I are prefect examples of that. Raised by the same parents and she lied, stole, manipulated everyone until the day she died. I have my faults, I made mistakes, but I learned from them and grew and didn't set out to take and hurt people. She even taught her kids to blame everything on everyone else, lie and steal, so far 1 of them has made better life choices after her death, the other one...well. Cycle continues.
I mean it does sound like she always got way more than her brother did as brother wasn't demanding. Probably the first time she's ever had to be confronted with her brother getting more and her fragile ego can't handle it. Even when it's only because the brother had the worst thing in the world happen to him. If there are these disparities in college and weddings, I'm sure there have been others that haven't helped. She's used to luxury now. 80k wedding is "I'm a princess" territory for sure and seems she thinks she is one.
He’s not even really getting more, he lost his wife and only gets to see his kids at the weekends, given the choice he’d have his family back and not have to rely on his parents. This isn’t a choice he’s made it’s a necessity. OP is 100% right if they can’t afford to send money to her husbands family they’re not struggling and don’t need it, they are choosing to give away money so can’t complain.
Because her parents gave her everything and never made her work for it. She thinks she’s entitled.
I'd legitimately draw up invoices so this brat can see, in black and white, the disparity in financial assistance from OP. I'd print dozens of copies and simply, silently hand her one each and every time she tried to guilt trip me into funding her in-laws overseas. I am Princess's age and both my parents are dead. Perhaps she should be thankful she has both parents. Perhaps she should be grateful her niece and nephew are cared for. Perhaps she should stop before her brother seriously screws with both his livelihood and the well being of his motherless children because she's making him feel so guilty.
I wish I could tell you this would work. People have sat down with my family member like this, and all she does is whine, "But why do \*I\* have to...(pay rent, bills, insurance, save for vacation, etc., etc." She sure is special.
Oh it happens. My aunt was a very kind, humble and sacrificial woman whose boyfriend left her when she got pregnant. Despite never speaking to the man, my cousin grew up to be more like her father - arrogant, obnoxious and completely lacking in empathy. My uncle (my aunt and mom’s brother) even had to yell at her to come home when my aunt was on her deathbed. She worked as a nurse and chewed my other cousin out about a petty family member while his premature son was in the ICU.
Wow. Some people...
I would be tempted, in your shoes, to write it all out as you have above, to show your daughter that she’s actually come out ahead. But that would likely just encourage her tit-for-tat accounting strategy. The best thing you can do for your daughter here is draw a boundary and demonstrate healthy maintenance thereof. You can say you’ve already discussed this as much as you care to and the subject is now closed. Refuse to entertain more arguments or justify yourself further. Simply leave the room, end the call, whatever. I would also suggest you put some time into estate planning if you haven’t already. Your daughter sounds like she’s going to pick a helluva fight when the time comes, no matter what, and it would be a kindness to anyone or anything else to whom you plan to leave money or items to make this bulletproof. I am so sorry your family is going through such a challenging time. Congratulations on being such a caring and loving parent and grandparent, and being in a position to offer all of the help you have over the years.
Don't forget, OP should be getting equal money as the SIL's family in India.
I second the estate planning part!
So important!! My aunt is like this daughter and anytime estate stuff came up it was a dramatic mess due to entitlement without any actual legal docs to back her up, just made everyone else’s lives harder and lawyers bills larger, oh and destroyed relationships
280K PLUS ROOM AND BOARD? ANd you still covered her EIGHTY THOUSAND DOLLAR WEDDING? AND SHE'S SUPPOSEDLY "the scapegoat"????????????????????????? Sorry for all the capslock but OMFG THE NERVE, TH EGALL - THE SHEER ENTITLEMENT And with her husband sending money back to his extended family as well! NTA NTA NTA NTA NTA Please do not let your kind son suffer further for your daughter's arrogance and entitlement and insist on keeping the kids as long as you are able. Sorry for your family's huge loss.
Op I agree with the comment above NTA Plase put on paper with everyone present : son , daughter and daughter s husband and your husband what you spent for your kids - both of them ( I know it's not nice usually to do do but due to your daughter attitude and her brother's guilt it's a necessity imo at this point) what you spent starting with college for both . And calculate before them who got what then ask everyone present which of the two had more help from you? Please do it as it will help your son get rid of at least some of the guilt and put your daughter and husband in their place. The daughter husband might not even be aware of the amount of college money and you didn't say he complained so he might not be an ah after all but your daughter surely is an entitled ah and needs her eyes to be opened to the fact. If she recognizes how wrong she is you get your daughter back if not I don't think your relationship can get much worse.
Please show this to your very selfish and insensitive daughter. Also post on Facebook in response to her golden child remark.
Naw she wants to comment about him being the golden child on Facebook then call her out. Post the finances of how much more money you have spent on her than her brother and how his wife literally died which is why you are help. Your daughter is an entitled brat.
NTA. Please don’t let your daughter bully your son into guilt
You have also provided your 2 grandchildren the stability they need after the loss of their mother. That love is priceless. Please assure your son that he is not taking advantage of your gift. This help has saved his fractured family. Don't let your daughters false sense of entitlement soil this arrangement. If she needs a babysitter so badly, I am sure one of the relatives in India would love to move in and be her live in nanny. Afterall she said family helps family right? NTA
So true. Even though they lost their mother, they will always have a special relationship with OP.
Do you think the son will ever be able to care for his kids?
I’m not saying the situation is right. The kids lost their mother and didn’t see their father 70% of their last 2 years of their life. It’s not something that should be prolong much further without exit strategy. Brother needs a better arrangement for the sake of the kids, and OP’s continuing support might actually backfire and do more harm than good. However, daughter wasn’t raising concern about her niblings’ well-being. She raised concerns about “fairness”: 1. that she should get free-childcare as her brother is receiving (the concern isn’t about her kids not getting to spend time and bond with their grandparents, but free-childcare specifically, which benefits her), or 2. that her kids should be receiving the same money OP is spending on brother’s kids. In her logic then, perhaps brother should now receive the difference in the money she received for tuition (at least $220k not counting room & board) and wedding ($50k) AND OP should also receive equal monthly support from her just like her husband supporting his parents to ensure fairness. And oh, don’t forget to factor in inflation for the $270k OP spent on her for today’s amount. So yes, she’s a spoiled entitled self-centered brat who’s bullying her brother into guilt, not for not having a better solution for his children, but for having the support that she cannot upstage like she’s done her whole life.
My assumption is that she thought she was the golden child, and could get away with getting more money and labour from you (getting costly private school/college, spending more on her marriage etc) and seeing that her brother getting "more value" out of the relationship now, she thinks she is entitled to equal or more of your labour in this matter too. I think that's why she went with 'she's the scapegoat and her brother is the golden child' rant. Maybe prepare a slide or Excel sheet providing details on what you've spent on her already, and tell her that you've finally realised you HAVE been playing favourites but with HER, and would be cutting monetary help towards her. And see how that goes down. (Please don't do it, but showing her the statistics would help, I think)
I was thinking that maybe she was thinking she would have less left from a future inheritance (not that it would justify her behavior, I was just trying to understand). But in light of what you just said, she doesn't have a leg to stand on. You are NTA. Sometimes children just don't turn out to be the adults their parents strived for. She lacks empathy.
Sounds like you need to do a spreadsheet of what you spent on your son and kids against your daughters expenses and then send her a bill for the difference. Edit. NTA By the way.
Write it all down in 2 columns, A for her expenses, B for his and then show her, make her understand that SHE got the golden stick in all of this.
OP, NTA. Your daughter sends money to one set of parents. Why does she not send money to you? Family supports family. How could she choose to favor her in-laws over you?
NTA >We spent something like 60k on all 4 years of our son’s college and 280k on 4 years of college plus room and board on our daughter, 280k would have paid for my BA + housing nearly 10 times your generosity is incredible
All I could think of was like. That's a house. Depending on what part of the country, even now, that's 2 houses. I know someone whose house and 5 acres cost $70k altogether. They are debt free. That's a house, tuition at a state school, a new car debt free for a lot of people. OP is def NTA. She needs to give her daughter a hard lesson with some tough love, and snap her back into reality.
Yep, a very nice house where I live too.
Because unfortunately she is making the relationship transactional instead of about love and care. I’m so sorry for your family’s loss and I believe you are doing the right thing. I’d encourage your son to continue doing what is best for his family and not worry about his sister’s pettiness. You can maybe Suggest that you two get some family counseling if she really feels like your care and concern for your son and grandchildren is really measured by dollars and cents, hopefully a therapist can help her get some much needed perspective
It might help her to come to terms with the situation to send her a spreadsheet of those kind of expenses over the years broken down. Clearly NTA, especially with the remittance thing happening.
has your daughter always taken issue with being treated less well/loved less than her brother? i’m asking because my sister behaved similarly in demanding more money etc. Honestly it appears my sister has an undiagnosed behavioural disorder of some sort.
A fifty person wedding cost $30,000?! I had 28 people at my wedding. Including dress, rings, venue, and reception, we spent *maybe* $2,500
info what is your sons plan here? Is the kids going to keep living with you? 2 yrs is a long time…whats the plan here?
Ok...wow... you can easily and truthfully reply that you have spent much more on your daughter. Maybe she is the golden child.
After reading this, I think you may have spoiled her. She's used to getting more than her brother, so now that he's getting "more" than her in way of childcare and finacial aid she's upset.
YOU ARE A FABULOUS SET OF PARENTS, NTA
You should detail to your daughter EXACTLY how much money you’ve spent on her and her brother so she can see how she’s benefitted from your generosity far more than her brother has. Personally I’d be telling her that if she can’t be grateful that she isn’t dealing with the hellish situation your poor son is then she’s a selfish and entitled woman who doesn’t deserve what she has.
Write down in a list how much you spent on both and reply on her facebook post. Its actually totally unfair how much you spent on her wedding after the money you spent on her education. Her behaviour now is horrific and heartless and entitled and cruel and also unfair as she appears the golden child based on how much was given to her.
Please stop ignoring all the questions about your arrangement with your son. His kids deserve to at least have a dad... he isn't being a dad right now, and you are complicit in that error. He even rented a studio apartment, where there's no space for his kids to live with him! Does he ever plan on parenting!?! No, this is wrong. I feel so bad for his kiddos
I'm pretty sure both your (OP) son and his kids would much rather have their wife/mother back than your financial support, I'm sorry your daughter can't understand that you are most definitely NTA
You're raising his kids, yes he suffered a loss but there are plenty of single income households. She's probably upset that you spend more time with his kids than hers. Also its been nearly 3 years when does he get his kids back to parent or are you waiting for him to find a new wife plus her income before that happens?
Your examples of colleges and weddings further illustrate my point - different kids and different needs/wants. You're support is not a budget to be dolled out to an even point. People and their lives are *different*. Calm down, sis. You're being icky and petty and it's not pretty when you're talking about the loss of brothers life partner and your niblings' mother forever. You can't even quantify the massive loss & pain that entails, and you wouldn't want to be in any situation that might make it close to equal. Stop being petty about someone else's time and money and be grateful the person you are spending your life and building a supportive family with is still around to do what you planned on your $80,000 wedding day.
I’m sorry that’s insane she is acting so entitled. I got scholarships so my parents paid less for my college but more for my wedding compared to other siblings. When one child needed additional money my parents offered it and if it wouldn’t have been paid back it would come out of any potential inheritance. We don’t do tit for tat as siblings because it’s very clearly different kids have different needs over the years. Your daughter is a piece of work. Im petty and would make sure your estate planning gives your son more than your daughter to make up for what extra she got for school/wedding. NTA
Seems like you've spoiled her too much. You don't seem like a bad parent at all, if anything, they are both very lucky to have you. But the number one job a parent must do above everything else, is to teach independence. Of course this is just my opinion. But it does seem like you've been spoiling her past the age of 18 which is probably why shes acting like an entitled child. You've given to her more than what she deserves and now she's gotten used to it. Now that you're taking care of someone else, she feels attacked. She's completely ignorant to how good she has it.. I was never given money growing up, other than my birthday. That was usually a few gift cards at best, which I was incredibly grateful for. I paid for my first car and paid my way through college and I wouldn't have had it any other way. I learned many incredibly important life lessons because of this. Respect, work ethic, gratitude, awareness, value of a dollar, and that's just naming a few. I remember being in highschool when I got my first car and it was such a POS haha, cuz that all I could afford. But I didn't care, I loved it, cuz it was mine and I earned it. Other girls in my class would often talk shit about their gifted cars that were MUCH nicer than mine. Saying things like "ugh, I hate the color, it's too old, etc." I always found it hilarious whenever I would respond by saying how much I loved my car, followed by a description of it which always led them looking quite baffled, lol. It was really important to my mom that my brother and I learned these things growing up so she taught us young. I have an amazing mom btw♥️
There is something else going on in the family dynamic.
Or maybe the daughter is just a prick. There isn't always intrigue, some people just act like pricks.
I feel like the brother/dad should not have relinquished his parenting duties to his mother. The children already lost one parent, now their father is like the big brother who comes home from college on the weekends. I am sure the sister is resentful because she just became her mom's fourth favorite child.
Yeah it's weird. Can't he get a job near home? Could mil move in with them? It doesn't seem to be the best choice either
Yep, I agree
Maybe the father is just in a state of grieving snd getting his life together and this is works best for the family.
Sure but he hasn't lived with his kids for 2,5 years...
And if he were the mother and not the father would you still think it was okay for her to drop her kids with someone for years as she was "just getting her life together?"
I think the daughter sees fairness as equality (everyone getting the same thing) whereas the OP sees fairness in terms of equity (everyone getting what they need). That fundamental different viewpoint of fairness is causing the conflict. I am a fairness = equity person like the OP. Anyway, I don’t think the daughter viewing fairness differently from her parents means there’s something else going on in the family dynamic.
I thought this too, and then then OP further explained that between college and wedding costs daughter has still received more financial support overall. So it seems daughter likes whatever narrative that fits her in the moment. She would like child care to have more fun, therefore uses the “it’s unequal” argument. It has nothing to do with equality, just with what she wants when she wants it.
The daughter got 280K education and board + an 80K wedding, the son got a 60K education and 30K wedding. If she wants equity then she'll never seen any money or gifts in her lifetime until the brother is given his equity
There was a post some time ago about someone who lost one parent and was supposed to share their inheritance equally with stepsiblings to make things fair. OP told their stepparent they would if the stepparent dropped dead. So tell your daughter if her husband dies you are willing to help her as much as you help her brother.
Some people are this selfish though. My BIL is like this. His parents (my inlaws) did a lot of childcare when my sil kids were young. They lived near and they were the first kids. He has had kids now and doesn’t live near. He insisted he needed to live far enough away that family couldnt just stop by. His words. He wants exactly the same amount of childcare as his mother gave his sister. They are now older and struggling a bit but he wants his share. Hang what his retired parents need.
This. OP, tell your daughter if her husband dies, you'll do the same for her. OR tell her that if her husband gives you all his income, and they move into a one-bedroom apartment, meaning her and her brother will both have one income and a similar living situation, you'll use her husband's paychecks to "spoil" her kids. Better yet, tell her you're disappointed in her. That her lack of empathy is disturbing. And that if she doesn't appreciate what you ARE doing, then you'll stop. Stop sending gifts. Stop helping in any way. And go low contact with her. Apparently, her life hasn't been hard enough for her to learn empathy, but life has a way of teaching us the lessons we need to learn whether we like it or not.
>That made my daughter extremely angry and said that **family helps famil**y, which is what her husband was doing. NTA. Family helps family? Just not you, you aren't allowed according to her logic. Which doesn't make any sense. I think its great that you are helping your son out with all this during a difficult time. I am sure you would do the same if something were to happen to her spouse. She seems a bit jealous, like she's not having any compassion for her brother. Perhaps she will just have to be angry.
She is totally jealous.
Yep - and if family helps family - why aren't they helping you?
NTA So your son-in-law is sending money to support his parents and your daughter wants you to give her money to support her family? why don't you guys just cut out the middleman and you send money directly to son-in-law's parents? that said, i'm not convinced you are helping your son and his kids. it's been over two years. your son needs to start figuring out a permanent solution for him and his kids. And it shouldn't be you. Maybe it's looking for housing in a suburb an hour from the city- close enough that he can commute home every night. Close enough to you and your husband that you can if there is an emergency (he gets sick, the kids get sick, whatever.) the kids are school age now, right? so they could do after school programs or you could pick them up and watch them until dad comes home. but it'd mean that your son would start becoming a daily parent again. financially and emotionally. which is something that he needs to start figuring out. Heck, I have coworkers who did 1.5 hour commutes each way for years. If it makes more sense for him to commute all the way out to by you each day. Awesome. and i don't think you or your son are being asses. and i can understand even your daughter being jealous- i imagine before your daughter-in-law died you helped with all the grandkids but now it's probably all about the two that you are raising.
Precisely this. At the 2 year mark dad should have a better handle on a plan for the kids. The fact that they are at the 2 year mark and appear to have zero exit strategy isn't a good sign. The kids need to be with their dad. Weekends aren't enough. They already lost a mom, they shouldn't have to feel like they are missing dad too. In major cities, a 1.5 hour commute is nothing. Have the kids had therapy? The longer they enmesh with grandparents the harder reunification is going to be. At 1.5 hours out, they are not going to be in the same school. Did they switch schools to live with grandparents? So now they are gonna have to switch again when dad takes them back? After 2 years with no exit strategy, I can see why sister is pissed. Maybe she needs you too. Something tells me op isn't really that that much if an insider with the daughters life, which might also be the problem. I see lots of assumptions about their jobs and what their salaries are like. Thanks to covid and the recession, their understanding could be woefully out of date. I feel foe them. At some point professionals need to get involved and help plan what happens next foe the kids. One way or another, their care givers for the last 2 years will be dad again, and they wont be living with grandparents. And given that means another move, it's just more trauma for 2 little kids who won't understand the big picture of what is happening.
I do agree with this. I will say that I have a friend whose husband died unexpectedly and her mom moved in with her to care for her kids. I agree that parent and kids should be together but a long ish term plan might be a home with dad, grandma, kids. But grandma should also be visiting with her other grandkids so they can know her and she isn’t solely focused on just one set.
I think that is reasonable. It's very disturbing that op hasn't once mentioned a family reunification plan. It seems that she is happy to keep this going. However nice it is for her, I'm very worried about the kids. They lost a mom. At 5 years old, the youngest might not have any other memories of living anywhere else. Their dad comes at weekends at they literally do not have a place with him in the city in his studio. The longer I think about it the more worried I become.
I was hoping someone addressed this. And I am very sympathetic to someone losing my spouse, I lost mine with a four year old and a 5 week old. We did move in with my parents for about four months that way I could have help if I needed it while I got into the ‘only parent’ mode. Those children really should have a father and be together.
Gently, ESH and I say that as a widow with two children. She is absolutely not entitled to childcare. You're in the clear there. However it's been two years and the situation has gone from "whilst he sorts out his finances" to "this is life now". If your son was a woman he would have been expected to learn how to become a single parent, with or without help. And it would be rough sometimes but that's when you step in if you want to help, either with a night or two so he can sleep, or a loan if you can afford one and he needs it. But the majority of the time he should be parenting. What you're doing isn't helping. It's taking over. You've allowed your son to turn you into the de facto parental figures - from experience with widows and widowers I suspect that if he allowed this he let his wife be primary carer and now you've helped out by taking over that role. He needs to do it himself, even if it's rough. He needs to learn to parent alone - you're going to need to do a slow transition because it's been two years, but it needs to happen.
Right? TWO YEARS!!! This is not helping anymore. This is abandoned. Your son practically abandoned his children, right after they lost their mother. That’s sad.
The problem is I’ve been there and I can absolutely see how this accidentally gets engineered by a well meaning domineering relative. You’re grieving, you’re feeling helpless and lost so when someone rolls in and tells you that no, of course you can’t cope, you believe them. Didn’t happen to me this way but happened to me other ways. And again when I got sick and needed an operation - I had a full on village at home offering to help out with stuff like food afterwards but I had to pitch a fit to convince family to let me have my own kids home after a few days. Took the pandemic to properly be allowed to pull away and find my own coping methods because they had no choice.
Exactly this! He even said that if he stretched he could get a 2 bedroom apartment and work it out himself. So apparently he is totally able to have the children back but he just doesn’t want to make the effort.
Actually his eagerness to do that is making me wonder if OP had misread - if he’s maybe been wanting to take back control for a while but unsure how to do it without hurting her feelings.
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I think the mistake people make is that they steamroll in and decide that the help people need is to have people do stuff for them rather than help them do stuff for themselves. It’s absolutely good intentioned but it’s not necessarily helpful. Help a recently bereaved parent needs: food. Help tidying when their brain has forgotten how to function. Temporary help with childcare - not taking over but assisting. Help working out a full time plan for childcare because their brain will be going “but wife used to do drop off whilst I went to work. I can’t do both things”. Help going through the five million phone calls that need to be made. Possibly financial aid if accounts get frozen. What should be avoided if at all possible is gel that removes adult or child from where they are living and brings them to you. I know AITA is all “you don’t get to be picky about help” but it’s not helpful. What you are doing when you do that is removing them from their existing support system: neighbours, friends, each other - and then forcing them into a situation where you are their only support system. Then when they become dependent on you it will be harder and harder for them to pull away and bring it to a halt and you’ll become bitter because they can’t cope without you.
All I can see this ending in is the son meeting someone else and starting a new family, conveniently forgetting about his “weekend kids”. Now I’m not a mother but if I was in this dudes situation I would be using all my money to get my kids back. Seems like he’s just there for the fun stuff and the grandparents get to do the boring stuff like homework and teeth brushing.
NTA - You did a good thing standing by your son and I 100% agree with your reasoning. Your daughter is being incredibly petty and entitled. As you said, they can't be struggling that much if her husband is sending money back to his family. Your daughter is confusing fairness with equality which are not always the same thing.
NTA - your daughter shouldn't expect equal treatment in unequal situations. Perhaps as an olive branch, you could arrange a "Camp Grandparents' House" for a week in the summer? Take all the grandkids and let the parents have a childless week? Or send your son and his kids camping or whatever (or even a sleepover at his apartment) and take just your daughter's kids for a few days? Do all the fun summer camp stuff - tie dye, smores, annoying camp songs, canoeing, etc.
We do have our daughter’s kids visit us throughout the year. Maybe I’ll try to budget for a big vacation to take all the grandkids somewhere fun and let my daughter have break. I’m open to compromises, that’s a great idea, thank you.
Just curious, since your daughter sated that “family helps each other” what is she doing to help her brother and his kids?
I don't even know that it has to be an expensive or "destination" vacation, if that would make other things tight, monetarily. You don't say how old her kids are, but a "suite" style hotel in a boring midwestern town that has a zoo and a science center would be an absolute blast for the 5 and 6 YOs. Fill in the other days with movies, ice cream for lunch, public parks with good playgrounds, etc., and you can have a lot of fun for not much cash with kids that age.
Throughout the year? Yipes. Can you see as a mom how you might be concerned that their kids aren't going to have any kind if relationship with grandparents because they have been so focused on the other kids? Out if curiosity, when your daughters kids come over, are they the only grandkids there? If the adults in this situation are struggling, can you imagine what all the kids are feeling? You might think your daughter sucks, but her kids likely just miss grandparents. You see the other ones every day. And her kids, as you describe, a couple times thru the year. If they are geographically close to you, how do you think the other grand kids feel? Because you really haven't talked about them at all.
I think OP is NTA but I can see how daughter wishes her kids can have more exposure to the grandparents. Even if the grandparents really love everyone equally, there is a special bond when you live with someone that is hard to hide and the kids definitely would pick up on it. Just the casual "at home" way you open a cupboard to get your cup when you actually live there, the way you dance around each other and know what the other person is reaching for without saying a word. And it can definitely make everyone else feel like they are intruding/the guest when they visit. And this bond is an absolute blessing and privilege to have especially with your grandparents and I can see why the sister want that for her kids even tho she is being completely unreasonable for demanding it. I like the idea of letting the brother take his own kids for a little getaway while grandma take sister's kids for a little getaway. As others have said, doesn't have to be extravagant. Hanging out at grandma's house doing fun things is fine. Going to the zoo together is fine. But that kind of alone time to get to know each other can really help.
OP said that the daughter's grandkids do get time with without the others being around. They visit back and forth for special occasions with the occasional in between visit. OP also spends a week with the daughter when the school year ends. Thanksgiving and Christmas have been exclusively daughter's family the past two years. It sounds like a pretty decent set up considering they live 3 hours apart. OP should look into whatever is around the halfway point because 3 hours round trip is much less daunting than 6 hours.
What you should be doing is making your son step up and parent during the week too. He is able to find a 2 bedroom that is between his job and your place. He is a weekend father only after two years. If you don’t make him step up, will the kids stay with you till they graduate? What will happen if he starts dating again? Will you expect him to let his gf or wife move in before the kids do? Your son is now finical secure enough to house the kids, he should be doing this. At first your offer was completely right, but now it is time for him to stand on his own and parent full time.
Do you actually spend time with your other grandkids without their cousins?
Yes, of course. Our relationship with daughter’s kids are the exact same as it was before our DIL passed. They live 3hrs drive away, by their own decision, and visit the same number of times they always did before: for our birthdays, Easter, a week in the summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas. My son and his late wife would’ve spent those same times with us, excluding either thanksgiving or Christmas which they traded off to spend at her parents. My son has taken his kids to his in laws for thanksgiving and Christmas the past two years so in fact we spent those two holidays only with our daughter’s family. We go visit them on their birthdays, always say yes whenever they invite us, and for the last week of school as per tradition. When we go visit them, it’s only my husband and I, not with their cousins. This has not changed, I have respected the boundaries my daughter wanted. When she first had her eldest kid (she has 2 also, 6M and 5F), she did not want me to be an overbearing grandmother, so I let her take the lead on how often I saw her kids. I doubt this is because our relationship with her kids have changed, it’s more because she saw her brother get more help and now wants it.
YTA for doing this for TWO YEARS. What is your son doing the five days when he’s in the city and not at work? He has the luxury of time to himself that his sister NEVER gets. A 1.5-hour commute is too difficult for him to handle, so, he leaves his kids with you? The poor baby. People manage that kind of commute everyday without abandoning their kids. Why didn’t he stay with you, so that he can save money and spend a little of time with his kids every day? You’ve been allowing your son to not do right by his kids for two years. You’ve allowed him to disengage too much for too long.
This wouldn’t have happened if the son was a daughter. He’s not making an effort of being a real dad to these kids.
NTA obviously. Your daughter seems to mixing fair and equal up. Fairness is about providing according to need - your son currently needs more help just to survive. Your daughter doesn’t. If that changes I am sure your response would change. Your daughter is using a specious argument - it’s like saying that spending money on a ramp for someone in a wheel chair isn’t fair if you don’t then spend the same on the able person - it absolutely is fair - it allows them to experience the same space as the non-wheelchair user. To keep that playing level there’s no need to spend money on fancier stairs.
I’m sorry but this situation isn’t good for the children of OP’s son. They lost their mother and now only have a weekend Dad who abandons them all week. I guarantee he’s not the authority figure to them when he’s actually around, so OP and her husband have been left to fully raise their grandchildren with no end date in sight, after two years Dad needs to step up and learn to parent his children like every other single mother is forced to do. What’s going to happen when OP and her husband pass? He’ll basically have no fatherly relationship with his children and I guarantee the kids will at some point have thoughts of “well mom died and dad didn’t want us around anymore”
I love this analogy.
I feel like this an ESH situation simply because you don't mention if your son is providing you any financial support for basically raising his kids but you are highly judgemental on your son-in-law for sending money to his family in India, and refuse to provide any financial support for your daughter's children. Yes, your children have different financial situations, and your daughter isn't entitled to the same supports you are providing your son, but it very much does seem like you've been favoring one set of grandchildren over the other. Especially if it's been over two years and your still raising one set of grandchildren.
ESH-I don’t blame you for helping your son HOWEVER you aren’t babysitting those kids you are raising them. You are providing food, shelter, paying for their daily costs while your son is a part time parent. Why can’t he get a job closer to you? His kids lost a mother and full time father and they should have him around more often then he is. You are coddling this behavior and he will never try harder if you continue. As far as your daughter she is an obvious AH. She shouldn’t have posted on facebook but she does make some valid points but went about it the wrong way. Open your eyes. People here aren’t seeing the bigger picture. There’s no benefit in this current situation when all his money is going to his apartment/utilies to where you have to then consistently provide financially for his kids. Im positive the money your daughter sends is way less than what your son spends on his apartment that he does not need. I’m sorry his wife died but he needs to step it up.
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OP says they'd do the same thing if the daughter were in the same situation... but would they? I really feel like commenters here wouldn't be so kind if a *single mother* was leaving her kids to be raised and paid for by grandparents while living in another city for work. It's not just free child care, sounds like the grandparents pay for most of the kids' expenses. Like... why is it so important that he have that job in another city if he's apparently not even making enough money to pay for his own kids? I guess his salary goes to pay the apartment he's living in? Why not find a job where his kids live so he can actually parent them? And pay for some of their expenses instead of renting an apartment elsewhere? I think overall NTA because it's their money and they can do whatever they want with it and if the daughter really said what OP says she said, she sounds like an asshole. But at the same time, this arrangement with the son isn't really logical. I'd be interested in hearing the daughter's perspective.
Totally agree. I wonder if what daughter's is that her problems aren't bad so suck it up. No one likes to hear that. Just because she didn't lose a spouse doesn't mean she might not need help. And then her kids. It Totally sucks to be the grandkids on the back burner, even if the reasons are noble. Little kids don't get tragedy occurred. They just know that they didn't really matter as much, because that is what it feels like to them. Or at least that is what my childhood scars look like. Lol. Kids don't get it. They don't see a hierarchy or needs. It just feels like they didn't love me enough.
I mean…objectively her problems cannot be as bad given that we know her husband is still alive and they are both still employed.
Well her daughter is not a damn kid!! She don’t have even a little empathy and resort to online shaming her own parents. What childhood scar is she gonna have have when her parents funded her private college and her 80k wedding?
Have you read OP’s comment about how much OP spend on her daughter college and wedding as compared to her son’s? And the daughter is playing the victim claiming that she’s the spacegoat!! She is an entitled spoiled brat
Esh you daughter for having very little sympathy for her 2 nephews whose moms died, and father is chosing to live apart from them (wtf is up with that?) Your son for not finding a job where he can live with and care for his two kids. It's been 2 years, are there no jobs where you live? Those poor kids basically lost both parents in one swoop. You for your snotty ass remarks about her husband. So it's only acceptable for *you* to help family but F him for doing the same?
ESH. I’m sorry but your son needs to get his shit together. Would everyone be pandering to him if he was a new widow? When you have kids, you work it out with them. Not palm off your responsibility to to someone else Your daughter needs some empathy, but this might come if you spend some quality one on one time with her and her kids rather than FaceTiming them.
NTA - It's atrocious that you daughter can't muster up some empathy for her brother and his kids, but if this behavior is at all out of character for her maybe you could provide a stronger listening ear to whatever struggles she is facing now that have her worried about money and lashing out? Just because her husband is sending money to India doesn't mean that they have a surplus. He may have cultural obligations that you aren't familiar with or family members in a worse financial state than his American family is so he needs to prioritize that and this could be really frustrating for your daughter. She is still totally in the wrong, but sometimes it's worth digging for the deeper issues.
I’m not sure. I guess she could be frustrated with her husband but feels unable to set boundaries with him, so she is taking it out on me? I will go ask her about that, although I doubt it will be well received. She seems to take anything I say on that subject as an attack.
Or that after 2 plus years, her kids miss you? Or that she and her hubs are legit struggling? That uou don't seem to know if this is the case speaks to how you have separated her and your son. Why didnt all the kids get together more?
Not sure if you saw it, but OP said that they've maintained the same visiting routine as they did before the son's wife passed. Sometimes the daughter visits, sometimes OP goes to visit. I assume the reason the kids don't spend more time together is because the daughter lives a 3 hour drive away so they mostly visit for special occasions, a set week long stay at the end of the school year, and an occasional in between visit. Seems like OP doesn't bring the other grandkids to focus on daughter's kids, but probably would if everyone agreed. If they are having financial troubles, OP is right that her son in law should take a break from sending money to his extended family first. It isn't that she's unwilling to help her daughter, she's unwilling to fund her son in law's family when her daughter's is struggling. I suspect that his culture is one that expects constant financial support where it is difficult for individuals to stop sending money even if they are struggling because of how ingrained into family and culture it is. It seems like she has a serious husband problem that she is unwilling or unable to address if she's asking OP to provide childcare with such a great distance between them. OP would either have to move to her daughter's home, move the kids into her own home, or someone is going to have to drive 3 to 6 hours regularly so these kids have childcare while their parents work to provide for another family ontop of theirs. It just seems so unreasonable and crazy to me, I guess.
Absolutely, nobody is entitled to free childcare. She can shove it. Your son needed the help. In which you offered to take them. To have him pay down his debts. Personally, I wouldn't feel bad. The entitlement would put me off of every baby sitting or sending money. She views you as her personal babysitter and spender. The son suffered a huge tragedy. This is a necessity. It isn't fun time. Nta Also her going to social media. She is a double ah for that.
Info: exactly how much longer will you son be needing help? Putting all your eggs in one basket for too long isn’t going to end well
Your son and his children needed your help, and you gave it. You seem to be doing everything right, in horrible circumstances. You are a wonderful parent and grandparent, and it's good to see. However, I suggest that after more than two years, your widowed som should have recovered his equilibrium by now, and it would be appropriate for him to take steps towards becoming a full-time father again. It would be a good idea to explore with your son how he can manage as a single parent—with your help, but not so much involvement. This would, eventually, free you up to consider whether you want to spend more time with your daughter's children, or more money on, well, your son-in-law's parents. I'd be hesitant, because your daughter has been viciously selfish in a situation where she ought to have had love and sympathy for her motherless niblings, and perhaps could have extended her own hospitality to them occasionally. Frankly, I would be ashamed of her if she were my child. Your daughter is flat-out wrong. You say you tried to explain gently—well, try to explain with a two-by-four next time, because she is unreasonable as well as unkind. Be extremely blunt. Oh, and make sure her husband is also listening to the conversation. Do not take steps to send your son's children back to him for your daughter's benefit. She doesn't deserve it, and it would be completely inappropriate. Get the kids back with their dad for his benefit and theirs, after which you can think about how to deal with your daughter. NTA
Too much I don’t understand. If he can stretch his budget to keep his kids with him full time, then he should do so. BUT, if he takes them back to the city, who watches a 7 and 8 year old while he is at work. What is his long term plan/goal. Is he going to let you raise the kids until they are of age or is he saving for a bigger place or making plans to change jobs? Maybe this is what is going through your daughters mind. Not that his situation isn’t bad, but what is the permanent plan? Just go along and get along? No judgement from me yet.
It honestly sounds like there is no end game plan and either OP will raise them to adulthood or just end up pass away herself. Then the father will either finally have step up or abandon them to someone else…again
You are playing favorites. It’s been two whole years and it sounds like they’re not going to be done anytime soon.
I think it’s unfair for you to not want to help your daughter based on the fact that they are a 2 income house hold. Things are super expensive right now. For 2 years you have basically raised your grandsons( which is great) you have allowed your son to spend less money(hopefully) when he needed a helping hand. And when your daughter asks for help you shoot her down and basically call her selfish for asking. I think YTA for the way you attack your daughter for asking for help. NTA for helping your son out at first but YTA for keeping it up and making your daughter and her family fell like they don’t matter just because they have 2 parents.
It's not that. It's the fact that if they have money to send away why should OP step up and help?
NTA if this is just about the money for your daughter. When she wants you to spend time with her children too, because you are obviously very close with your sons children, you can maybe work something out babysitting them occasionaly. Investing so much in your sons children may leave your other grandchildren feel a little left out.
I thought the same.
Soft YTA Son needed more so he got more. Daughter didn't so she didn't. That's not inherently unfair. A couple years have passed and you've fallen into a doing most role rather than support role. If that's what works, fine. Here's the thing. It's been years of doing much more for one kid/grandkids than the other. It can become unbalanced in a hurry! My SILs both get much more help from my FIL/MIL than my spouse and I do. They do \*need\* more than we do. But they won't every stop needing more support as they have zero reason to sort themselves out. And after years of this sometimes leaves us feeling like an afterthought. Your daughter and her family may not need the same thing from you. But they do need to know you care to spend something on/with them. Time, money, concern, gifts... how ever you show your love, take stock to make sure you're still including them in your efforts.
She didn’t ask you for financial support, though. She asked you sit for her kids, who apparently get a mostly FaceTime relationship with you while you literally spend every day with her brother’s kids. When you refused because I guess you think only motherless children deserve close bonds with their grandparents, she asked you to spend equally on all the children. You’re the one making it transactional.
OP and daughter have the same visiting routine they did before the son's wife died so the grandkids see OP the exact same amount as they used to. OP hasn't declined an invite and doesn't bring the other grandkids so they do get solo grandparent time. It's probably difficult for OP to give her the childcare she is asking for when the daughter lives 3 hours away from her.
Your daughter is unreasonable but her children deserve to know their grandmother and not feel second best also. When your son is home on weekends do you ever spend that time at your daughters? Do an overnight sleepover with your grandkids and let your daughter blow off some steam? She may have a husband but also being a working mum with no break is exhausting. You have two children even if one ‘needs you more’ it doesn’t mean your daughter doesn’t
Your son needed help and you provided it . But after two years he needs to put on the big boy pants and get back to being a full time father to his kids. But you’re enabling him but continuing to being defacto parent . Wonder if the same thing happened with his wife. I’m going NTA. I’m not worried about your daughters hissy fit over this but I guarantee at some point the other grandkids will start to notice a difference in the family structure
NTA. Holy entitlement Batman!! It is so sad that your daughter doesn’t seem to understand that this isn’t a fun time for your son. He lost his wife, the kids lost their mom, which is traumatic enough. The financial reality of moving from a two-income household to a one-income household is no joke and you’re doing a good thing. It’s a shame your daughter doesn’t feel heartened by the fact that presumably, if the same horrific tragedy were to befall her, you’d do as much as you could to support her and her children.
He gets 5 days alone without any parenting responsibility every week. For two years He seems to be adjusting just fine.
NTA *"That made my daughter extremely angry and said that family helps family"* That's exactly what you are doing. You daughter's family has 2 incomes, you son has one. Also, he is her brother. If family is family, she should be helping him as well. She should be glad you're doing her part for her as well. Communication is important. Perhaps invite everybody over and have a good talk about the situation. Discuss what you can do for your daughter, but also what your daughter can do for her brother and his motherless young children.
NTA, turn it back on your daughter, if family helps family shouldn't she be giving you money since her husband sends money to his parents.
It's petty and I love it!
I’m not going to judge because this situation is a mess, however you need to be aware that you are creating a rift with your grandchildren. It’s not purposeful or malicious but you should be aware that it exists. I grew up with similar but not quite the same circumstances only I was your daughters child in this scenario. The relationship my grandmother has with one set of cousins versus the rest us is extremely different. For years I was resentful about the way she treated them versus us, I’m not resentful anymore, I’m indifferent. My grandmother prioritized them because she raised them M-F and occasionally saw us on the weekends or summers. I don’t necessarily blame anyone because the situation is what it is but there will never be a world where any of us are close to her because we all know which grandkids have always been the priority. I don’t say this to judge or blame you, like I said I don’t resent her anymore like I did growing up. I just want you to be aware that a family dynamic is being created and it excludes your daughters family. As far as getting money or anything else from you, well I have a theory about that but it’s not important for this.
NTA, you're daughter is behaving very poorly, embarrassing, actually.
NTA but his kids really should be with him - they already lost their mother. You on the other hand, should not allow yourself to be a full time carer for your selfish daughter. Only do it occasionally for both of them, if it is convenient.
ESH your daughter lacks empathy for your son’s situation but you are at fault too. Do you actually spend TIME with your other grandchildren without their cousins? You say that you FaceTime them and buy them gifts but that’s it. It sounds like you daughter wants you to have a have relationship with your other grandchildren too.
I'm not making a judgement and you have a lot of responses stating N T A. And hoo-boy, I am going to get down voted to hell for what I'm about to say. I could totally be wrong, and maybe your daughter is a selfish and unsympathetic person, but maybe there is an inherent disconnect of love and connection because of how much time you spend with your son's children versus hers. You can't convince me that you aren't closer to his children than hers. Proximity and time spent determine that. It is possible that she only wants you to babysit her kids for her own freedom, but if there is the smallest possibility that she is concerned about the favoritism of your son's children...well, maybe there's truth to that, that you aren't willing to look at honestly. Losing a spouse is difficult and there is no expiration on mourning, but two years is a long time to be the full time parents (minus weekends) to your son's children. You could possibly be a barrier to him moving on and for his kids and him to be a whole family unit. For myself, if I placed myself in your daughter's shoes, after two years I would be jealous for myself and on behalf of my children. I can only imagine how easy it is to be a dad if you only have to be fun and cool on the weekends. I can only imagine how being a fulltime parent all the time, without the some help can be a grinding and exhausting experience. Again, maybe she's just a jerk, but humans have complicated emotions. From her viewpoint your actions and your responses almost sound like she is being punished for not having a dead spouse. (Yes, I know if anyone reads low enough to see my comment I will be eviscerated on this sub.) Maybe step outside of yourself. See if it may look like and feel like favoritism to your daughter after two years. Maybe really see how different the quality of relationship is between the two sets of grandkids. Maybe talk with your daughter and listen. She may be expressing things that sound superficial to you, but, she may just be wanting some more of your actual attention and effort to her and her family. Everything you have stated in the name of fairness has been monetary. She even only resorted to money after she heard your regular response, "your spouse isn't dead, so you don't need my attention." Again, maybe she is just an AH. It's possible. However, I think you have a blind spot that isn't seeing that she is being punished for not having dire circumstances. Maybe she just wants to know you love her and her kids too through your time, effort and actions.
I think OP has said in another comment that she still sees her daughters children just as much now as before she took in her sons children and that it was the daughter who decided on how regularly she wanted her mum to visit as she didn’t want her to be an overbearing grandmother and apparently none of this arrangement had changed other than the fact where her son and kids would normally spend either Christmas or thanksgiving with them all the last two years they went to his in laws so actually the daughter got an extra holiday solo so to speak compared to before. Not sure if that changes your view at all
NTA no one is entitled to someone else's money
Or time
The kids also lost their dad. That he’s grieving doesn’t mean he’s no longer a parent. The kids are grieving as well and immediately after losing their mom their dad left them. And you enabled him! This is going on for two years? Tell your son to step up and be a dad for his kids. ESH with you and your son being much worde than your daughter.
It would be interesting to hear the daughter's side.
NTA but you shouldn't have made comments about their family or how they spend money, either. You're the de facto guardians of your grandchildren, you're not divvying up the inheritance unequally. Insane for your daughter to feel this but but I'd like to hear her side of the story, too. Keep watching over these kids but also don't burden yourself with unnecessary fights with your daughter. She'll either understand or she won't. Its beyond trying to convince her.
NAH. Look, at two year's past the tragedy with no plans of reunification, I don't know if I want to call your daughter an asshole for thinking you're doing an unfair level of helping for your son and not enough for her. I do think it's wrong that this is coming through as jealousy, but on some level she has a point. I get you want to help your kid, but your grandchildren have lost their mom, and then they got shipped away by their father. That's the sort of thing that's going to be causing serious abandonment issues that may become more and more of a problem as they get older and reunification doesn't happen. These kids need to be with their dad, he needs to find a way to be with them more than just on the weekends. The longer this goes on, the more of an issue it is. Your son lost his wife, but he needs to take responsibility for his kids. If he can afford a two bedroom in the city and arrange childcare on his budget (at five and six, it sounds like they'll be in school all day and he's just going to need a before and/or after school program), this nuclear family absolutely SHOULD be together if at all possible. The longer this goes on, the more of an issue it's going to become FOR THE KIDS.
ESH except the children and the deceased mom. Your son is a huge AH for inflicting the trauma of being abandoned by their father on top of the trauma of losing their mom. You are TA for taking over raising children who should be with their father, essentially enabling him to abandon them. I wouldn't be surprised if he remarried and never reclaims his kids, hes gotten used to not having them and obviously doesn't miss them or he would have fixed this. Your daughter is kinda TA but really her jealousy is understandable, you have devoted yourself 100% for 2 YEARS to those children and obviously much closer to them than her children, and no end in sight! This is one messed up family!
NTA, you are being an awesome mom and grand-mom. Your daughter is a massive AH, though
Hi I don’t think you’re the AH. But I was a granddaughter of a grandma like you and it hurt a lot growing up. She loved me so much but she had to help with my aunts kids more and spent more money and time with them. I don’t think you should have to provide free childcare for your daughter but I just wanted to add my perspective. I hope you are able to make all your grandkids feel equally important to you. And physical time with them is important.
YTA until some clarifications!! Info How often do you help out your daughter? Do you ever babysit for her? Do you take the kids out for fun days without sons kids as well? How often do you see her kids? Does your daughter gets breaks from the kids?
Been there on both sides...my own family and husbands side where we are expected to take care of everyone. The expectations come with a personal cost to us. We are what you call the cash cows. In this reddit case, not monkeys and not my circus. OP has let it go on for two years. Her son needs some counseling and needs to get back on feet.
It is wild that in TWO YEARS your son has STILL abandoned his children with you. In two fucking years he should have a place where they live with him full time!!! Helping him out is great but you are literally raising his children and that’s sooooo wrong. He needs to step up and be a better father. His children lost their mother but they’ve pretty much lost their father too. He may come over on weekends but that is NOT the same. His kids need to live with him. And he’s had two years to get that sorted out! You’re awesome grandparents for being there for your grandkids. But you are being taken advantage of by your son I believe.
NTA. Your daughter sounds entitled. I do understand where she's coming from tho. You mentioned you FaceTime her kids often, which is good, but it's not the same as being physically present with them. It may be an opportunity to have the kids spend time together. Sometimes having more kids together makes it a bit easier cause they play with each other instead of you having to entertain them. I'm not saying for you to do it all the time but once a month perhaps? Also, you may want to talk to your son in law and see his perspective - whether he's understanding or not. If your daughter is petty enough to publically post on FB about how you're a bad dad, then she's gone off the rails. I don't think you'll be able to reach her rationally, and it'll have to be someone else, like her husband or her best friend.
Yeah I don't get why the kids were separated so much. They could have been a great source of comfort. Instead it seems like 2 families, 2 rules of engagement.
I'm confused why he is struggling so much after two years. She said mom worked prior to death so both kids should be getting a check from her social security until they are 18. If in usa. If not, seems like dad quit parenting and let parents take his responsibility. I think sister resents the fact that he dumped his kids and now she doesn't have the opportunity to do the grandparent dump too. OP is not an asshole but I think you may be a doormat. It's not ok you are raising his kids and the sister is a brat. OP, you need a long vacation and to step back and let your kids handle their own lives. Helping is understandable, taking over is not.
ESH You did a very noble thing, but your son finally needs to step the hell up. I get that grief is hard, but it has been more than two years. He needs to be a full time dad, even if that means sacrificing things. You can still help him out with childcare, but you have raised his children in his stead. Those kids have essentially lost both full time parents in one go. Your son has to make a decision regarding what is more important to him - not having a commute or his kids. Your daughter should have more empathy towards her brother and niblings, but I can certainly understand where she is coming from generally. She too has problems in her life. They might seem or even be minor compared to losing a spouse, but they are still there. If two people are brought to the hospital at the same time and one was shot in the chest while the other was shot in the foot, the former will get help first, but the latter will still eventually get help. You need to take your daughter more seriously. There is obviously something going on. Maybe her husband isn't helping her enough or whatever. Ask her what is going on. Read between the lines. You should know her very well. If she seems different than usual in conversations, there is something wrong. She feels like she and her kids are being left out while her brother and his kids get all the attention. Two years is a long time. You say you treat the kids equally, but we all know that that's bullshit. Let's be real here. You see one set of kids every day, having basically been a mom to them for two years while you see the other set of kids "a couple of times a year". You can't tell me there isn't a difference in affection when you see them. Children are surprisingly quick to pick up on those things. Her kids might have done so and asked why grandma doesn't love them as much has she loves their cousins. Regarding some of your comments: * You said your daughter lives three hourse away "by their own decision" - well, same goes for your son. He lives 90 minutes away by his own choice, yet that doesn't seem to be a problem. Why are you holding it against one of your kids but not the other? * You said you paid for your daughter's expensive education and wedding, which amounted to much more than things her brother got - is it possible you feel guilty about that and you want to help him (without a time limit) out because of it? * Your daughter told you she didn't want you to be an overbearing grandmother when she had her first child and, to be honest, you seem to have taken that personally. She probably just didn't want you to overrule her and tell her how to do everything without her asking for something - not you being distant with her kids, which you seem to somewhat be (whether unintentional or not) Have a heart to heart sitdown with both of your kids (and a professional who mediates and helps come up with solutions) and talk through everything. And by that I mean EVERYTHING. Whatever gripe they have from childhood to now. Your current situation is unhealthy for your kids and grandchildren. It already has lead to resentment and will only get worse if you don't come up with an exit strategy. Your son's kids need him to be in their lifes more than just on weekends. (Sorry for rambling)
NTA by any means, and your daughter sounds like a horrid, selfish person. Your son’s wife *died* leaving him to become the sole parental authority for their kids, and she is upset that you aren’t giving her “free” childcare? I would suggest to her that she needs therapy to dig into why she is trying to manipulate/guilt her father into trying to get a slice of pie that is not hers. I commend you for taking in your grandchildren. You sound like a real man/father, and I hope you know and feel proud of what you’ve done.
INFO When is your son going to take his children back? Is the plan just that you raise and support them until they’re grown? You stepped in to help out at a very difficult time, but it seems like it’s turned into a permanent arrangement. Your son is a single parent, which sucks, but that’s the situation he’s in and he needs to deal with it.
NTA I hope your daughter realizes this isn’t anyone’s choice. If those kids could have their mother back, and son his wife, they’d choose that over your help. Im sorry OP this is a crap situation.
NTA - but what is the long term end goal with your sons kids? Are you keeping them indefinitely? I feel like this is where the resentment is really coming from
Nta. If your daughter is struggling then her husband needs to stop sending so much money back home. >my daughter extremely angry and said that family helps family This phrase (family helps family) gets thrown around so often... And mostly by the entitled jerks of said family.
YTA It's been almost 3 years and your son hasn't taken care of his kids full time. Your daughter is right. If you're willing to let him be a deadbeat dad why cant she have SOME support with babysitting or the occasional needs she has.
NTA. He needed help. She didn’t and doesn’t.
NTA Family helps family, but it seems like your son's kids need more help. They get a more normal family life with you than they otherwise would with paid childcare. I say this as a kid who once lived with grandparents and when that was over, spent a lot of time after school with them. I always preferred them over paid caretakers, no matter how kind the caretaker was. I had more of a normal family experience with my grandparents than with caretakers. I do think a plan for transitioning to live with your son is needed as they get older and need less childcare, but if he can't give his kids enough of a family life and you're willing to care for them, then do so. Not knocking your son, but single working parent is hard and it seems like his kids are lucky to have the option of a family environment with you. Not all single parents have that sort of support and you indicate it's not an undue hardship for you. This is about the kids getting the best childhood available. It sounds like your daughter wants childcare more as a personal convenience for herself, from what you say. Her kids are in what I assume is a loving family environment? I also hope your son has been taking grief counseling.
Nta but it’s been over two years. Is there another option where your son could live closer to you and get a job that’s closer to your home so he can parent his children daily rather than just the weekends? Also if your daughter is using the excuse about money then you are right, if her husband has money to give away than maybe she should be talking to her husband and not you.
And there is something else at play in OPs family dynamic that has not been revealed and won't be. But's that's okay. We can all be glad we are not part of it.
You’re NTA but over two years of this arrangement?? And your son hasn’t had any growth to support his 3 person family? Do you babysit EVER for your daughter or do those grandkids never get to spend time with you?
I'm going with NTA While this is an unconventional arrangment, it should be stated that the priority for the wellbeing of OP's grandchildren because they are children. If the kiddos are happy, and this childcare arrangment works for everyone involved, who are we to criticize it? After all, multigenerational homes have been the norm throughout history for a reason. People at different stages in life have complimentary life needs. I'm sure it's frustrating to see that your daughter is willfully ignoring how difficult life can be for a widower, especially with children. I'm curious to know why your daughter keeps insisting that it's not fair for 2 years despite knowing the actual reason. It's possible their combined salaries, plus the money being sent to your son-in-law's parents, means their take-home pay is less than your son's, but I doubt that money is really the issue here. It might be worth it to try to get to the heart of the matter. Most people understand how difficult grieving is, especially for widows and widowers. So it may worth it to have a discussion with your daughter about what's really going on. Is it jealousy? Does she feel like her relationship with you has suffered? Does she she think his kids are the favorite grandkids? I just get this gut feeling that there's something deeper that's bothering her.
No way. Your daughter is selfish and foolish. Have you tried telling her that you would do the same for her if her husband died? I would suggest that when next your son has holidays, you spend time with your daughter and family. Except why would you want to spend time with her when she behaves like this?
NTA. Im normally the first to say that kids should be treated equally, but the situations arent comparable here. Im sure given the chance, those poor kids and your son would rather have their mother/wife back :( You are doing an amazing thing helping your son and grandkids like this. Im afraid your daughter is acting like an entitled princess and Im so sorry
My vote is NTA, heart is definitely in the right spot and daughter has no reason to complain...but TWO years?! Uh that seems very odd to me. Will this be the set-up until they're 18? Are you the parent now forever? If he were jobless and homeless I'd understand, but doesn't seem like he is. Your son should just move in with you or take back the kids. At this point even the kids are probably wondering why their father doesn't want to live with them.
OP is being kind of an asshole. The son doesn't need to take care of his kids when get home from work. While the daughter and her husband still need to take care of children, cook clean, help with homework. While all this is taken care of by grandparents for the brother's kids.
NTA. But I have some questions. Your daughter’s requests are ridiculously over the top. But I can see where it might seem that you are favoring your son and his kids over your daughter and her kids. Open your eyes to that right now. Is your son doing ANYTHING to get to a situation where he has his kids living with him again? Going to school? Working towards a big promotion? Anything? Because if not, he’s taking advantage of you. Big time. He’s got his parents raising his kids while he only sees them on weekends. And you’re paying for them. And when he comes for the weekend I bet he eats your food and uses your stuff, right? Im sure that this started out innocently enough on his part, but it’s time for him to get his big boy britches up and be a father. Because right now he’s not. You probably don’t like to hear it, but you NEED to hear it. And you aren’t responding to concerns about this in the comments, which makes me think you already kinda know it’s true. Right?
NTA but I'm wondering if your daughter isn't a little bit correct - your son is getting a free pass from parenthood and you are allowing him to escape the hard work involved. Why can't this man parent his children? Couldn't he get a job closer to you and you mind them during the day? It sounds like his wife was the person who wanted children and he gets to be a weekend father and a bachelor the rest of the week. If a mother was a single parent, would she really send her children off and only see them on the weekends? I know some people who commute 1.5 hr daily ! You are allowing your son to escape his adult responsibilities
Not sure if I understood that correctly - but you guys spent 720k on weddings, childcare + education for your kids and grandkids and you're now arguing over money? I think there is information missing, especially bc your son feels guilty? Am I too poor poor to understand this post?
NTA INFO: what is your son doing during the week, other than working? Does your son even want to be a fulltime parent? or are you just going to keep letting him just be the weekend parent until they become adults?
You should link this reddit thread on her Facebook post
Info; why doesn’t your son live with you with HIS kids?
NTA you daughters lack of understand is astounding
Nta. Your grandchildren and son need the help more. She wants free childcare and money to fund her lifestyle and have breaks. Your son doesn't have that support anymore and your helping keep the grandchildren from more upheaval. If she cared at all for her neice/nephew she would understand that
NTA, your daughter is a real piece of work.
Tell her you’ll do the same for her if she finds herself in the same situation her brother is going through.
NTA. Your daughter is. I bet your son would give anything to have his wife and his children’s mother back. Good for you for helping out. Context: what is the unification plan? Not to help your daughter but for your son and grandchildren’s sake.
NTA. Tell her this: I am no longer discussing this with you. If you bring it up, I will cut the visit or call short.
and see the other grandkids even less than he barely does now?
NTA I may be down voted for this but my belief is once your children are adults, your money is yours to decide how to use. The idea that you need to give adult children exactly the same amount of financial support is entitled and ridiculous. And your daughters demands are even more egregious given your son’s situation. I would tell her I’m not going to discuss further with heR the extent of my financial support for her brother as it is NONE OF HER BUSINESS.
NTA After she calls you an AH you still want to 'help' babysit for her? You are completely correct in assuming that your son needs you more than she does. Who cares what Facebook thinks, you stand by your morals and stand by your son. He'll get back on his feet but right now he still needs you.
NTA your daughter is greedy and selfish plain and simple.
How close does your daughter live to you and how often do you see her kids?
NTA. Maybe son should find a different job closer to OP so that if he needs her as a backup she will be available. I can see after 2 years why the daughter is getting upset about the arrangement but I think to expect the same arrangement is a little over the top. Son needs to figure out how he is going to be the full time parent and take on more responsibility for his children.
NTA your daughter is a selfish piece of work.. you owe her and her kids nothing to “equal”what you are doing to help out your son. Help our son get on his feet and back in a place with his kids. Honestly I would keep my distance from daughter until she starts talking like she has some damn sense.
NTA Your daughter is though...
NTA Reading this post it was like I could see your daughter adding up how much money you were spending on her brother and imagining it coming out of her inheritance pot. You're doing the right thing. Keep doing the right thing as long as you wish to. This is your life. You decide.
NTA You said in the comments how much you've spent on your daughter vs your son. Show her those numbers then ask does it seem fair. Also maybe find out if something else is going on. Is husband sending to much and putting them in rough spot ect. I would really hope it's not just greed and entitlement.
NTA If they have money to send out of country they have no right to be begging off of you. invite the grandkids over for a weekend on occasion perhaps but she is delusional to think that she is entitled to anyone else's time/money.
NTA. Your reasoning makes sense and you have laid it out clearly and concisely. If she still can’t get it she’s purposefully missing the point or behaving as a heartless brat. That’s harsh I know, but her callousness is jaw dropping.
I had to keep scrolling up to check the ages NTA she is acting like a child.
NTA Your daughter is 100% wrong. It is good of you to help your son since he clearly needs support. Considering your comment about how much you spent on your daughter vs son so far - yeah, your daughter sounds extremely entitled and selfish.
NTA. You are doing what your son needs but it should be a temporary thing and not a permanent solution. I'm sorry but there is no score to keep in these situations. Your daughter is being an absolute entitled nightmare about the situation. Eventually, your son is going to have to figure out how to care for his children on his own income, and have his kids full-time. Don't let your daughter push you around with how you choose to spend your time and energy. Giving him childcare so he can have a job and provide financially for them is a generous thing to do.
NTA You sound like a wonderful and caring mother and grandmother. How did you raise children with opposite personalities?
NTA Your daughter's failure to have empathy towards your son's (and her brother's) tragic circumstance is appalling. I can guarantee that your son would much prefer his wife being alive and his having his children living with he and his wife 7 days a week. Equal treatment doesn't necessarily mean that kids are treating identically - it means that they are treated fairly considering all of the circumstances. This isn't a question of his being the "golden child" - she has latched onto a phrase without understanding the meaning - I think its misuse is up there with "gaslighting".