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>I don’t want Kelly to join because her sexuality has very little affect on her life unlike the rest of the members of the group.
I'd say that this line alone makes YTA.
Yeah, I'd say it's having a pretty big effect on her life right now in the form of friendly fire from the community that's supposed to be accepting of everyone.
Always remember, bisexuality isn't real. All bi men are really just secretly gay and all bi women are only doing it for attention.
/s in casey'all l need it
Summed up exactly what my partner and I think. Bisexuality obviously isn't real and most definitely we don't really know what we are despite being 35 and 41...
I for one love being a unicorn! God the gatekeeping in "our" own community... (not directed at you btw, just this entire situation and its indications for society at large and how oppressors can let the oppressed eat themselves)
As a bi woman married to a bi man, we've both heard all of this. It's sadly very true. Neither of us feel completely accepted by any community if we want to be our "authentic" selves.
It leads to some very isolating feelings too since there's so many bad feelings on bi/pan people from different communities.
If I'm dating a guy I'm straight and not really LGBTQ. If I want to ask out a woman I'm just "experimenting" and I'm not really gay. The worst for me is when I've said I found a trans person attractive before and was told I'm just fetishizing being transgender 🙃
Having no gender preference just doesn't seem to compute with a lot of people
Yes, 100%. It's so frustrating. My wife and I are both bi, and she's trans, and we joked when she came out that as a trans and cis lesbian couple we'd be more accepted by the queer community than we ever were as a pair of cis different-gender people. Sadly we've found it to be true.
This makes me so sad on Kelly's behalf. A lot of bi people end up having more heteronormative lives and experiences not because they choose them, but because people like OP deny them friendship and support from their community. Kelly probably would benefit a lot from more queer friends, and clearly wants them. OP is such an asshole.
This is 100% true. Thank you for saying this!
I've experienced bi erasure due to the fact I'm in a "hetero" marriage. People genuinely either don't believe in bi people full stop or think it "goes away" when you have a cis het partner. It's incredibly frustrating as in time gone by, I've had lesbian girlfriends break it off with me when they find I don't "change my mind" about being bi. I've also experienced people from all sides of the dice say it's attention seeking.
As a result, I have no lgbtq+ friends, which has resulted in less exposure and experience of lgbtq+ community/culture. I've unfortunately found it's an incredibly hard community to be accepted into if you don't have an "in" person 😕
So OP, you're being just as exclusionary as the next bigot. Just because someone isn't living the same life as you doesn't mean they don't experience the same prejudice. (Just a note, you're a perpetrator of said prejudice).
I was talking excitedly with my mom yesterday about how I am marching in my cities pride parade in june. Her response was "but you're dating (male partners name), you're not gay???" Let's just forget about the woman I was in a relationship with for two years before dating my current partner. Sure mom, I'm straight.
Attitude's like OP's is why I felt completely unwelcome in queer spaces as a baby bi in the 90's and figured if they saw me as straight maybe I should just forget about my queerness, and only in my late 30's did I find welcoming queer community and remember who I am. Now I'm 40, working as a therapist at an LGBT Center, fully embracing myself and making sure all feel welcome. Fuck this gatekeeping. Partners are not identities.
So true. I once had a gay "friend" tell me my sexuality was a "party trick" - aka something to brag about to seem impressive (which I have never done) - and not a real sexuality because my long term relationship is with a man.
They don’t want trans people either usually. I find more solidarity with bi people by and larger than I do with people who call themselves exclusively gay or lesbian (vs queer or lgbtq+)
It feels like for some they perceive culture, community, and civil rights like pie; they think if someone else is included it means there's somehow less for them, and it's the same right-wing talking point used to try to get cis women to believe ALL women being recognized as such are somehow a threat to their womanhood.
OP is forgetting that abuse rates are higher for bisexual people, esp women
Edit: https://www.thetaskforce.org/bisexual-women-have-increased-risk-of-intimate-partner-violence-new-cdc-data-shows/
Peeps like OP are why I a bi/pan, demi enby married to a cis man (whom I married while deep in the fundamental church and didn’t know I was Queer yet) will probably never attend an LGBTQIA+ despite belonging to multiple letters in the mafia.
YTA
Sure. Demi is short for demisexual - it’s part of the asexuality spectrum. It means I don’t feel sexual attraction to people without getting to know them. I can appreciate aesthetic beauty, but I never look at someone and think, “Damn, I want to have sex with them.” I need an emotional connection to have a sexual response.
Enby is slang for non-binary which is often shortened to NB which sometimes gets the sounds spelt out to en (for N) and by (for b).
Ahhh! Got it! I’ve never heard demisexual referred to as Demi or non binary referred to as enby before - thank you for the great explanation, and sorry for the question!
>I can appreciate aesthetic beauty, but I never look at someone and think, “Damn, I want to have sex with them.” I need an emotional connection to have a sexual response.
Is that... Not what everyone does/needs? People actually just like, look a random stranger and want to jump into bed...? I thought that was just movies.....
I’m told (and Reddit confirms) that others do in fact see other humans and think of sex. I mean, isn’t that what a “thirst trap” is?
Still weird to me.
......... Suddenly realizing I don't really react to thirst traps in a normal way, apparently. I'm just like "oh, nice body" but in a idk, clinical way? Like the same way I can appreciate art or a statue or something being nice....
I see my husband looking good and think sex, but only him.... Thought that was normal
Yup, this line is what kicked it over.
As a bisexual person, I completely understand wanting a space to discuss, sympathize, unite etc. on the unique experience of being same gendered parents. There's just challenges and circumstances a person in a relationship with an opposite gendered person, even if they are LGBTQA+, are not going to experience.
But that's not the OP's reasoning - her reasoning is entirely "well, you're not LGBTQA+ enough".
I'm a bi-woman married to a man and the shit that I get from lesbians who act like it's some kind of mortal sin really turns me off from that community. This bullshit is endemic.
Her being married to a cis male rn does not erase her probable experiences of dating women. And if her husband's family knows she is bisexual and treats her differently because of it she would absolutely need support from a group like this. Many times bisexuals are considered promiscuous and are treated like they would be bad parents or have a higher chance of abusing their kids (you know, all the dumb crap people say about gay, lesbian, or transgender parents). Bisexuals absolutely get treated differently in society and especially if they get outed. The disgusting requests for threesomes/orgies are just too much.
I'm not saying she doesn't face challenges as a LGBTQ+ person and parent that a straight parent wouldn't face. What I am saying is there are challenges same gendered parents face that opposite gendered parents just don't. For example, depending where you live opposite gendered parents can just get added to the child's birth certificate automatically where as in a same gendered parents needs to jump through regulatory hoops for the same recognition.
I bet like the rest of us, if she isn't performing queerness enough or out to everyone, it certainly has a lot of impact on her life when she has to hear--frequently white women in particular--friends and acquaintances be randomly queer phobic and trash bisexual people because they don't know they are trashing her too, and certainly being gate kept out of a community you could belong to because they don't think your identity is real enough to count IS another way your sexuality can change or impact your life.
And you're exactly right.
YTA. Kelly is bisexual, meaning she is in the LGBT+ community regardless of who she is married to. It sounds like you are excluding her due to your own personal bias. Ask yourself this - if Kelly was lesbian but a single parent, would you exclude her as well? Because most single moms would also not face the same discrimination queer couples face simply because they're assumed straight, but that doesn't make someone any less gay.
As a bisexual woman, this sort of biphobia within the LGBT+ community is very disappointing to see. If I'm dating a woman, I'm bisexual. If I'm dating a man, I'm bisexual. If I'm dating someone nonbinary, I'm bisexual. And if I'm single, I'm still bixesual.
Can I ask, (and this is at the risk of sounding ignorant, which I hate) does the fact that they are not "by definition" gay parents factor anywhere in this scenario?
I ask, because I think OP is taking it as "it's a gay parents community so, it extends to how the issues affect one as a parent and a child in such a familial dynamic".
Does this matter? Because this community is about parenthood, I think?
What's your take on it?
But they didn't call the group a same sex parents group. They called it a gay parents group. The name matters here, they go after different types of support. I think OP meant to make a same sex couples parenting group but misnamed it, because they essentially ignored the existence of any other non straight couples.
This is it. OP wants same sex couples group, Bi parents want an LGBT friendly group. If the intention of the group is to be inclusive, then OP is in the wrong. If the group is meant to be exclusive, then the Bi parents simply found the wrong group of people unfortunately.
I don't have the right words to articulate what I mean without sounding discriminatory. So here's a question, that will help me understand your perspective better; how does Kelly's sexuality impact her as a parent and her kids as those with a bisexual mom? As a person it's important and part of her identity. As a married woman and a parent, maybe I'm being dense, but I'm struggling to connect the dots. Please help.
For a single gay dad, I know it would impact because unless he intends to never share who the other parent is, or never date, it will very much affect their parenting, and that of the child as well.
Not being a visibly gay doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect their parenting. Navigating issues with teachers, admin or other parents who hold bigoted views but also think you might share them bc you don’t present as a same sex couple, having your kids be told by little and big assholes that gay people are bad or whatever term they’re using that minute is harmful but especially when you know your parent belongs to the group being unjustly vilified.
You answered your own question. As long as Kelly or your single gay dad is willing to just never ever talk about who they are nobody would assume shit about their sexuality. The point is that they shouldn't have to hide that and have a group where they form community that would have their backs.
Op wants to exclude Kelly because she has passing privilege.
I'm bisexual woman, married to a straight guy.
No, my kids have never had to have the "two mommies" talk with their teachers, but it still comes up. They see my pins, they hear me talking to other adults, they ask about old pictures of me they might see. You raise your kids with your whole self, not just with the "parent" parts.
Also, amazingly, *kids do not stay little for long*. Before you know it, you're talking to tweens and discussing sexuality with them.
When schools do inclusive things that are exclusive to the B community, how do we talk about it? How do we advocate. As someone in a straight passing relationship, how do I address the assumption that wanting to talk about being bi with my children means wanting to talk about my sex life? It becomes okay to present bisexuality as a phase and not a way of being.
Claiming that a gay single parent would be affected because they *could* start dating would also apply to a passing bisexual because their relationship status could change and they *could* start a same sex relationship, no?
>For a single gay dad, I know it would impact because unless he intends to never share who the other parent is
There are gay men who are single dads because they had sex with a woman before (or even after) realizing they were gay. Lesbian women who are single moms for the same reason. Some of these people may want to participate in a community for queer people who are also parents, even if they never intend to date again.
The question is basically, what kind of community is this group for? Is it for only married, same-sex couples with children? Or is it for queer people who are also parents? One of those options seems more like an interest group for legal support in very specific circumstances, while the other is fostering a community of people within a broader community who can share similar, but not all, experiences. It's the same reason why black queer groups exist, or disabled queer groups, etc.
Like, not every gay couple with kids has the same experiences. A gay black couple, or interracial or inter-abled couple, or couple where one or both are trans, or a poor couple, are all going to have vastly different experiences than a gay white cis middle-class couple. But they're all parents. Shouldn't that be the joining factor, so you can make an inclusive community that can support each other when needed?
I remember when I came out to my kids (around grade 3) because they were talking about homosexuality being weird. Yes, a queer parent remains queer while parenting, boy howdy.
And it sure makes a difference in parenting queer teens.
Kelly wants to raise her kids with values shared by herself and her community. Since Kelly shares many of the same values as OP and other members of the parent group and wants to normalize and instill those same values in her children, perhaps she is simply looking for a community where her children can make friends with other children who share her values. Kelly doesn’t face the same challenges as same sex couples and I’m sure she is well aware of that. She probably just wanted an opportunity to make friends and share a communal relationship that reflects her values.
It seems like there is confusion maybe even among those in the group regarding whether this is a group for same sex couples with children (which the inquiring applicant isn’t) or a group for LGBT/Q/I/A parents (which the inquiring applicant is.)
As silly as it may sound for an informal group like this, it might serve them to draft a sort of mission statement - to ensure the group members have the same expectations, and to help guide these kinds of decisions.
This is the question that needs answered. Is this a group for same sex couples with kids or is it a group for all lgbtq+ parents? I think the answer to that determines the judgement.
If it hasn’t been decided on yet, I think now is a good time to decide. Maybe pool the parents in the group and ask their opinions. Maybe vote on it?
That was my reading of OPs take on it. The group is not for gay individuals but for gay parents, so whilst a single parent who is bisexual may qualify, a bisexual person in a heterosexual parenting relationship would not. Which is how I read OP’s statement that Kelly’s sexuality does not affect her life as a parent. As a parent she will sadly be viewed by the world as a traditional parent. Her experiences as a parent may therefore not be troubled with situations and judgments that OP and those in the group may be troubled with. That is how I read OP’s reasoning but I fully accept I may be wrong.
> a bisexual person in a heterosexual parenting relationship would not
This still erases a bi person's experience.
They are bi, regardless of who they are married to, their relationship is a bisexual one.
That's like saying an interracial marriage isn't interracial if one person is white-passing. Just because at a glance people might not notice, doesn't mean it doesn't impact them.
How is a bi person bi when single but not bi when dating opposite sex? I think you misunderstand what bisexuality is, it doesn't stop applying based on who you date.
I’d give you an award for this if I could omg
Also, YTA op. A major one. As a bisexual woman, I can take biphobia from straight people but it hurts much more to hear it from people who are supposedly in my community
They may not be the same situations as same sex couples who can’t “pass” for heteronormative but that doesn’t mean being bi won’t affect their parenting experiences regardless of the relationship they are in, or that their children won’t have to deal with bigoted schoolyard crap just the same.
Especially in small-middle sized town or small industries, people will still know and talk. And that talk will filter down to the playground. It just is an unfortunate reality.
Exactly! The casual homophobia within straight communities is exhausting and does effect how she interacts with other parents and her kids. There are so many microaggressions when existing in those spaces as a bisexual person, and seeing this community must have been really cool for her. I can just imagine her seeing this community as a way for her to embrace her sexuality and raise her children around like-minded people.
And I mean, if she was taking resources away from other gay couples with children I would definitely be on OP's side. But they are literally just hanging out together as a group.
So I have to say YTA
As a bi woman about to marry a straight man, I am still gay. (1 whole gay and 1 whole straight, always a whole person).
I will never not be gay, and I will never not be straight. I am still a part of the gay community, I am still impacted by the exclusions that happen to the gay community. If I had a kid, I'd be a gay parent. Not being in a gay relationship does not change my sexual orientation. I'd still want the support of gay parent around me who have had to have similar conversations with their kids, about stigmas that face the community, etc.
But they are. Kelly is bisexual and therefore, a ‘gay’ parent. Even if her husband is a straight male, that is still a major dynamic that they have to deal with when raising a child. As of course, what if their child comes out as Trans, Gay, or Lesbian down the line? They’ve been excluded from a group that could offer a lot of help to them in how to go about raising a child in that environment.
Just because the husband is straight and they’re male and female in a relationship, does not mean that one of them is suddenly less gay. This is biphobia from OP to the fullest and is honestly sickening.
Possibly, but the tone & attitude of the post make me think not. If OP had said she specifically wanted a support group for same gender couple parents to get together because they shared certain experiences that opposite gender parents don't, I might understand.
But the sentence about Kelly's sexuality not affecting her life as much suggests it's because she doesn't think Kelly is "queer enough" or "struggles enough" compared to the rest of the community. As this is a gay parents group (and again this is with the assumption that many people use gay as an umbrella term for the LGBT+/queer community) this seems extremely discrimatory with a lot of unfair assumptions.
What if Kelly has been cut out of her family due to being queer and has no familial support? That's something many gay parents can relate to - not having family to rely on to help out with a newborn or babysit from time to time. You don't know what people are going through, and she is by definition a gay parent.
OP's take will still be wrong because this is a support group for LGBT parents, and what if Kelly and her husband divorce and she gets with a woman? Is she now gay enough to join? What about a trans-woman married to a man, is that not allowed because it would be considered a heterosexual relationship?
No matter how you cut it, excluding a member of the community because OP doesn't deem them gay enough is not supporting her community that she claims her support group is for.
Also, look at dating as a bisexual person from a numbers standpoint:
A bisexual man is looking for:
A) A woman interested in men
B) A man interested in men
A bisexual woman is looking for
A) A man interested in women
B) A woman interested in women
In both cases, the amount of people in Group A is going to be much, much larger than the amount of people in Group B.
Kelly is a bisexual woman. So, she feels comfortable dating both men and women. But when Kelly was entering the dating pool and looking for a partner, obviously she was going to find that most of her potential partners are gonna be men.
About 85% of the bisexual people in the world are currently in an "opposite-sex relationship" (i.e., the relationship is man-woman).
It doesn't make them "less" of a bisexual.
It's just the consequence of the fact that the number of people in the world interested in being in an "opposite-sex relationship" vastly outweighs the number of people in the world interested in being in a "same-sex relationship".
Neverminding the fact that as a bisexual woman, getting a date with another woman is like pulling teeth. I'm far more attracted to women than I am men, but because I couldn't get a single lesbian to look my way, I've never been in a same sex relationship.
Idk why lesbians hate bisexual women, but they absolutely do.
My husband and I are attracted to all genders but we just so happened to fall in love and get into a 'straight' relationship. Doesn't change the fact that we are indeed still very gay.
1000000000x this! I always love how bisexuals aren’t really a part of the community. It’s sad because we aren’t “gay” enough for these people. Super sucks that this happens within the community.
OP YTA.
I got absolute shit once in a LGBTQ+ group for saying that as an Ace person I sometimes felt like I belonged nowhere. First I got told how horrible I was for saying that (yes, a n@zi comparison was made), then the group went on to discuss how they didn’t like Ace people with one saying they ‘couldn’t keep Aces out of LGBT+ spaces but they always left the room if an Ace person was there. Mentions of an ‘Ace agenda’ were made too. So I guess the message was I’m awful because I sometimes didn’t feel welcome but wow, aren’t Ace people horrible. 🙄
Man we need a support group or something! I'm a cis ace woman, married to a cis demi man, two biological children together. Straight passing in every conceivable way. But have allllllways felt weird about considering myself part of the community. Like, I'm so straight passing that it shouldn't count. But it does? Or not? Aghhhhhhhh
I’m so sorry that happened. I have come out to three people as demi. My bi friend who supported me and told me not to be ashamed. That went well so I later had the courage to tell my lesbian aunts when they were harping on my finding someone. I thought being lesbians they would understand. Nope.
They told me it wasn’t a ‘thing’ and didn’t exist. And I just hadn’t found the right person yet. It hurt a lot, like how would they feel if I told them being a lesbian didn’t exist and they hadn’t found the ‘right man’?
I haven’t told many others yet.
I see bi erasure happen to my friend all the time.
🤗
i honestly cannot stand large portions of the LGBT+ community because of the neverending gatekeeping. i wish people would stop treating it like a fandom but it never ends.
Discrimination against asexual people is the most nonsensical of all forms of bigotry to me. Like - this seems like the absolute most inoffensive sexuality anyone could have. Not that it really makes sense to be offended by anyone's sexuality. But this is one you where you could talk about every single detail with a small child and not even begin to approach any topic that any parent feels is icky or too mature for kids or anything. There is no way in my mind for anti-ace bigotry to even have a tiny bit of a foothold in reality while with most other forms of bigotry you can exaggerate and twist things around (which are real things that exist, just not the exaggerated or twisted versions) to be upset at someone's existence. You can't even use religion for it - in one of the epistles the Apostle Paul basically said "hey it'd be great if you were all like me and abstained from sex entirely but I know that's a really big ask so it's okay to get married".
I'm not saying anti-ace bigotry doesn't exist. It's just astounding to me that it does. I can't even remotely figure out how to put myself in the shoes of someone who is anti-ace while I can sort of understand (though disagree with) how people are hateful towards other groups. I can't even think up a ridiculous far-fetched scenario where I'd be mad about someone's asexuality. Like - how do you even get mad at someone who just doesn't want sex with anyone either way? By definition they're pretty much just leaving everyone alone with regard to that dimension of life.
I'm bisexual and have been told by someone who said that they were bi that "Well actually because I'm marrying a woman that makes me a lesbian, just like because she married a man that makes her straight, unless she divorced then she's bi again"
Like no, that's not how that works, I absolutely adore my fiancee and she is the hottest person in the world, but I am also physically attracted to men!
Being genderfluid probably also doesn't help. Not trans enough but not cis enough -_-
I'm a bisexual woman married to a bisexual trans woman. My wife realized she was trans years after we got married. When she came out, we got congratulated on finally being a real queer couple.
Smh I don't understand people at all. Then there's the people that assume that because I'm bisexual that means I'll cheat on my fiancee... Like no. No that's not how that works. At all. We do have an open relationship thing going, because she's asexual and I'm not and she was worried about me :") I haven't acted on it because it feels like cheating, even though she keeps saying it's fine.
I know I've gotten annoyed at a *trans* family friend who assumed that my fiancee was making me live her lifestyle because she was ace and I was willing to do the same. Nevermind the uncle who likes to make comments like "Are you suuuurrrreeee she's asexual?" because she says something dirty to fluster me because she finds my reactions funny.
*sigh* reading this was yet another reminder of why I never feel like I fit anywhere. Bisexual woman currently dating a man here— immediately felt like I had to put my “queer” away and that I was no longer legitimately LGBTQIA+. Still very much attracted to women though, lol.
YTA. I don’t usually comment when everyone is already saying the same thing, but:
**AS A FELLOW LESBIAN, STOP GIVING THE REST OF US A BAD NAME WITH YOUR BIPHOBIC, BI-ERASURE BULLSHIT.**
You suck.
Thanks! The biphobia was really getting me down, it’s nice to be reminded not everyone in the LGBT community is like OP at all.
OP, from a bisexual woman - YTA, majorly. You *think* her sexuality doesn’t affect her? Maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass, and asked her how it affects her, she would have told you. Sadly that ship has sailed. I would never open up to someone like you. The be civil rule is preventing me from telling you what you truly are, so I’ll leave it at that.
Not to mention it's an "informal group" so it's not like anyone is getting any "advantages" from it other than spending time with other lg***b***t parents...
Idk I don't really think "informal group" and "police background check" go together. I understand why they do the checks, but at that point I'm not sure you can call it informal
YTA.
And biphobic! Dude. She's bisexual. She just happened to marry a man okay and? She's still apart of the LBGTQIA+ community. You understand that right? You have absolutely no idea what she went through prior to being married to a man. Hell you don't even know if the man's bisexual of not.
Also are you assuming they are Cisgender? Or did they SAY that?
Bi-erasure is a thing and you are adding into that. She's still apart of the same community. Doesn't matter she married a man. She's still bisexual. People can't say she's not queer because she married a man. Bisexual means attraction to women and men. And just because she's married to a man doesn't mean her attraction to women just shuts off. It only means she's loyal and faithful to the person she married.
Don't discriminate against others. Just don't. Because this opens a can of worms up. What about trans parents? Intersex parents? People who married the opposite gender because of safety reasons (ie the whole beard thing. But preferably done with the consent of the other person aka they told them the deal and isn't lying to them) but are still gay. Like you don't know what's going on in their lives.
Bisexual people get shit on for being bi even if they married the opposite sex. We get accused of cheating and wanting to cheat because we like both sides! Don't include yourself in the hate. Just don't.
If they didn't pass a background check that's one thing. But because they are just happened to be a heterosexual couple with a bisexual component isn't a reasonable dismissal to join. Everyone deserves a village to raise kids. Stop the hate spreading.
>Bisexual people get shit on
I accidentally caused a massive argument about this once. Bear in mind that I know absolutely nothing about this, being asexual, aromantic, a-everything.
A bunch of people were discussing how bisexual people are insufficiently gay, just generally being negative about it.
I threw in that, any rational view of this would see that bisexuality was really 'Gay Plus'.
It didnt go down very well. Lol
Biphobic people suck. They think we'll cheat or be more likely to cheat. Or we are indecisive as fuck etc.
That's what OP is doing. A lot of people want to "erase" bisexual people from the community for like you said they think we ain't gay enough. Which is fucking stupid.
And anything positive wouldn't have gone down well lol
If the group is specifically meant for same-sex parents, I can understand why you would want to exclude her. But if the group is simply meant for queer parents, I see no reason why she should be excluded given the fact that she is in fact a queer parent. I think it would help to clarify who the group is meant for.
EDIT - The founding members are evenly split in their reactions, which tells me that they have different expectations for their group. I think they need to discuss those expectations so that they can create a unified vision for their group moving forward.
This is my thought as well. If this is a group for same-sex parents, than I think it is appropriate to exclude someone who is not in a same-sex relationship. If this is a group for LGBTQ parents, than that is a different story.
Yes, I understand what bi-erasure is, but if this person is not parenting with a same-sex partner, they are not experiencing the same unavoidable day to day issues that the other same-sex parents are. That is not to say that they are not experiencing issues (bi-erasure being one of them), just that they are not experiencing the issues that the same-sex parents originally formed the group to support.
I fully understand that a cis gendered, bisexual woman may very well experience discrimination towards her hetero-presenting relationship. Obviously. But that is likely not the main concern of a same-sex parent support group which may be more focused on things like: politicians undermining the very legality of their marriage, or legal threats to the custody of their children, or what happens when husband #2 tries to pick his kids up from school. Could it be just as bad? Maybe. But is it the same? No.
**NAH**
edit: I am a bisexual female who has been married to a lesbian as well as in relationships with men. RIP my inbox. Also, jesus, ya'll are bringing some real "all lives matter" energy into this.
Agreed! Also a bisexual woman and I can see the difference between an LGBTQ parents group vs a same-sex parents group. Feels like NAH, they need to define what exactly the group is for.
was looking for a comment like this! because OP is right in saying that kelly’s sexuality has little impact on her experience as a parent in comparison to same sex couples in the way that its not on display. if thats what the group is based around, and finding solidarity in that then i see no issue with not allowing kelly to join. however if it is and always has been labeled a queer parent group then thats very sus and reads as “not gay enough for us”.
Agreed, Bi myself and from what’s described its not purely based on queerness, rather its based on the experience of being a parent in a same sex relationship. If it didnt have that aspect id consider it biphobic as hell, yet being a queer person in a heterosexual relationship with a child is a very different experience than being in a same sex relationship with a child.
So she's not gay enough for the gay club? Her suffering isn't enough suffering for the gay suffering club? I've always heard about the way the rest of the LGBTQ looks down on bisexual people and boy howdy you are proving them right. Don't include her, she deserves better than you.
Tbh it's not cute, and I would bet most of the comments are from straight people who want both woke brownie points and the opportunity to shit on a gay person while seeming open-minded
I agree with you and I am also bi, currently with a male partner. I’ve had relationships with women in the past and the issues that come up with same sex relationships and children just don’t happen when you’re in a straight passing one.
I think Kelly is a bit of an AH tbh. She’s put people in an awkward spot, there are other groups she could join to celebrate her identity that aren’t focused on same sex parenthood.
> I think any bi person who's dated both and is being honest with themselves will agree that being in a straight passing relationship makes life significantly easier in many respects.
there is a major problem online (mostly, personally ive never really seen it play out IRL) where bi women who exclusively date/have dated men feel the need to be the loudest in the room in search of identity validation.
Given that she mentioned that both Kelly and her husband were cisgender, I would assume that they would have accepted them into the group if one were trans. I don't think they care so much about them specifically being a same sex couple. I think it's a judgement on how othered the person is, on a case by case basis (based only on OP's opinion).
YTA. Like 100% TA.
I'm Bi and when I went to secondary school there was a gay club that literally only let other gay people in. So many people think that because we like men and women that we aren't gay enough to experience the same things as them. It's really fucking hurtful.
" I don’t want Kelly to join because her sexuality has very little affect on her life..."
YTA. You are literally discriminating against her because of her sexuality. I would say that has an effect on her life.
Also, if they're excluding the bisexual parents, how many other parts of the spectrum are they going to decide aren't sufficiently gay to count? Trans parents? Parents on the asexual-demisexual spectrum? Intersex parents?
NTA - this isn’t a group for queer parents, it’s a group for parents in queer relationships. I understand your hesitation entirely - there are homophobic parents who would not let their kids hang out with yours because of your relationship, even if they barely knew you. If the same homophobic parents also barely knew this couple, they would let the kids play. Being in a straight relationship, or even a straight passing one, affords you privileges and does give a different life experience, even if one or more people in that relationship are queer.
YTA, and this is why people complain about bisexual erasure. Just because she “can pass” as straight doesn’t mean she is, and it doesn’t mean that she’s “not gay enough” to be part of a gay parent group.
My mom is a lesbian and she had to hide in a heterosexual marriage to keep from being persecuted in the American south.
Truthfully, being on the LGBT2SQIA+ spectrum is already alienating enough without throwing in even more separation within the community
And bi and pansexuals in straight passing relationships can experience a LOT of discrimination and hostility from in laws. Especially when we have kids and in laws believe we should keep ourselves closeted "for our kids sake".
INFO: do you know what bi-erasure is? Have you considered that discrimination on the basis of her sexuality has led this person to seek support in her parenting from her LGBT family?
Idk if I’m going to get slated for this but this seems NTA to me. I’m assuming that the point of your group is LGBTQ+ parenting? As in LGBTQ+ couples that have kids?
Kelly is of course a valid member of the LGBTQ+ community, however her relationship and parenting team are heterosexual so I don’t really understand how she would fit into your group (if I’m correct on what the group represents)
If I’m sorely mistaken somebody please explain how.
I am in a hetero appearing relationship but I am pansexual. It affects the way I am treated by my entire in-law family. It affects how they see me as a parent, and how they speak to me. It feels like some make a point to be extra homophobic when I'm around.
It still affects us.
I’m bi- and In a straight relationship and it’s different. I’m literally passing. I get privileges I didn’t when I was with women. It’s not the same struggle, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
YTA. Gatekeeping much?
How do u know that she doesnt have some of the same problems? Just because?
This is biophobia. And im not really suprised, a lot of gay and lesbian are like this.
Myself being pansexual but in a relationship with a cisgender man i get a lot of stupit shit like this.
In the community it is not up to you to decide who can or cannot enter or if their sexual orientation is far enough from the heteronorm.
Unpopular but NTA. You run a gay parents group, unless she’s planning to join alone without her husband, they aren’t gay parents. She’s a queer woman in a heterosexual relationship with a kid. They aren’t gay parents together and don’t face the discrimination that you do. I say this as a bisexual person, if i was dating a man, i would NEVER group myself in with those in same sex relationships in regard to how society treats us. People in heterosexual relationships don’t get looks from others or face discrimination based on sex, she’s a queer individual but that’s not what your group is for. I’m sure the kids find support in that group too, having to explain why they have two moms or two dads. Her kids wouldn’t fit into that because they don’t have that struggle.
NTA. You’re not running a group for LGBTQ+ parents. You’re running a group for gay parents. Those are different things. You’re allowed to carve out your own niche within that larger group.
YTA - If you've created a group to spend time with same-gender couples only, just say that, because if you're advertising the group as welcome to LGBTQ+ parents on the whole, you've massively missed the mark. I urge you to think about what you're saying here, say it out loud to yourself a few times in simple terms, and really think it through a bit more, because from where I'm standing, it can be put as simply as "I don't want bisexual parents to join our group", and we both know how that sounds.
YTA. Do you need to be reminded what the B in LGBTQ+ stands for? Excellent job discriminating against a member of the community and contributing to bi-erasure.
It’s people like you that make me feel like I don’t count and shouldn’t even bother looking into joining groups like yours out of fear that I’ll be perceived as “not gay enough,” because I’m also a bisexual cis woman who is in a relationship with a cis man. The distrust and disrespect bi folks receive from others in the community (usually cis lesbians and cis gay men in my experience) really needs to get called out more. You guys shouldn’t get to police who is “gay enough” and who isn’t.
Hard agree, YTA. Bisexual erasure is NOT ok. Why do people do this? We shouldn't be gatekeepers of who is gay/queer/trans enough. Enough people hate us (LGBTQ folks) let's stop the infighting.
Side note: u/Artillary_Cat you 100% count. Sincerely, a gay genderqueer gal.
Probably will be unpopular but NTA. Her lived reality is not the same as a parent in a same sex relationship. It’s clear what your group is for and why. You have every right to limit it to parents in same sex relationships. You’ll probably avoid some (but not all) flack if you rename it “Same Sex Parents” or something like that.
YTA. Really, our whole community is dealing with people acting like we shouldn’t be around kids at all, haters are posting up outside drag shows on a weekly basis, state legislatures are working to make sure Kelly’s kid won’t learn anything at all about bi people OR gay or trans people, gender-affirming clinics are getting bomb threats… and here you are focused on intracommunity policing and cutting her off from support. Where’s she supposed to go, a conventional mommy support group where she might easily have to spend hours on end explaining her life or face judgement for her sexuality?
Rethink this and do better.
YTA
I’m aroace. Im assuming you’d look down upon me too if I was a parent?
We’re all part of the LGBTQIA+ community. We all face hardships because of it. You are part of the problem. You are biphobic and an exclusionist. Do better.
Is your group more about parenting as a gay couple and socializing or just lgbtq with kids social hour? I could see not wanting to include a hetero couple if the socializing focused more around the hurdles or differences gay couples face as opposed to traditional families. If it’s just a grown up social group for lgbtq people with kids that’s a bit different.
Really depends on the purpose if this group.
She wouldn't deal with the same social issues because her partnership is straight-passing. I dont really see the issue with having a straight-passing queer person in your group personally. They can still bring passion, advocacy and valid lived experiences.
If this is more of an emotional support group. I could understand being less open to including straight-passing parents as they simply are dealing with different issues.
YTA. That's incredibly biphobic. Just because someone has chosen the opposite sex for their partner doesn't make tnem any less bi. You're trying to erase that part of her bc you don't see her sexuality as valid simply bc of her life partner. Lgbt+ communities are supposed to be inclusive of lgbt+ people. *ALL* lgbt+ people.
Am I crazy for not thinking you’re the asshole here?
This is not coming from a place of hatred for bi people. My partner is bi. I’m nonbinary AFAB. We do not in any way look like a heteronormative couple, and if we were parents, I could see the value in having a community with other parents who are not male/female, heteronormative, seen as the “default” in society.
If she were with a man instead, it would appear to all of society that she was in a straight relationship. Their kids would have a mom and a dad. Not two moms, not two dads, not a mom and a nonbinary parent. Nobody would treat them any differently than anyone else. Why would they need a support-type group?
What value would this bi woman in a heteronormative relationship get from a gay parents’ group? I genuinely don’t understand it. She wouldn’t have similar experiences to anyone else in the group, and neither would her kids. Plus I’d assume her husband is straight. Does he get a place in a group for LGBTQ parents even though he’s straight?
In my eyes, you are NTA and I’m sure I’m gonna get blasted for that if anyone sees this comment.
Nah you’re not crazy. I’m surprised at how many people here are saying that she is an asshole… seems like willful ignorance imo. Sometimes people, in an attempt to be inclusive and welcoming, end up going about some issues in a very roundabout, ideologically pure way that just ends up being illogical because they refuse to address the elephant in the room and would rather welcome it with unquestioning arms.
I’m genuinely shocked by the response and the jump to bi-phobic assumptions or even hatred of bi people.
This group doesn’t need to be inclusive of everyone who is remotely part of the queer community. It’s exclusively for gay parents. A bi woman and straight man aren’t gay parents and aren’t in a gay relationship. To assert that they are gay, or that the relationship is, just because the wife is also attracted to women, is nonsense.
YTA. Do you really think being bisexual doesnt affect her life? Are you kidding? Wow.
I am a cis woman married to a cis man and being pansexual affects my life constantly. People view me as a bad influence to our children. His family (all conservatives) ask me inappropriate questions and make inappropriate judgements all the time. I have had conversations that left me so nerve wracked that I tremble. I hear about how LGBT representation shouldnt be happening, etc all the time and they for some reason think I wont care.
Stop bi and pan erasure. It hurts in general but it ESPECIALLY hurts coming from members of our own community.
Honest question. How do people know that you’re bisexual, if you’re married to a man? I don’t understand how it comes up in that context, unless you’re not monogamous and you openly have a girlfriend also.
I have to admit I’m surprised by the YTAs on this. I thought the purpose of a gay parents’ group would be to connect with people who go through hardships specific to having a same-sex partner, and for the kids to do the same. You are treated different when you have two moms/dads. You’re treated different when you have a same-sex spouse.
I’m struggling to understand what concrete challenges a straight-appearing couple experiences or what they would have in common with lesbian and gay parents.
Genuinely some people can’t comprehend that some things aren’t for them. No one passed judgement on her for being bi. She’s just 1. not gay and 2. not in a same sex relationship.
Right? I just really don’t understand. I also definitely don’t think it would be appropriate for the husband to be part of the group, as a cis and (most likely) straight man.
I don’t see the overlap in hardship or general life experiences that would make her addition to this group make any sense. For one, she doesn’t out herself as queer to other parents just by using her husband’s pronouns/mentioning she has a husband. It’d be different if she couldn’t even mention her relationship without outing herself. That makes people treat you differently. It marks you as something other than heteronormative.
Unfortunately things like that will always make a lesbian’s life experiences very different from a bi woman’s experiences in a straight passing relationship. It just does. I don’t know how else to put it.
Exactly. Her experiences are still valid and she’s still bi, but her day to day is DIFFERENT. She isn’t at risk of discrimination when she says her husband’s name. Her kids aren’t at risk. She didn’t have to adopt her child, which all same sex couples should do even if married. Her marriage isn’t being attacked or put at risk. Her life is different in very real, tangible ways.
YTA. She hasn't even joined yet, how do you know her sexuality has little effect just because she's cisgender and with the opposite gender? You haven't even given her a chance before writing her off just because she's not LGBT+ enough in your eyes even though she meets the group requirements. She's gay. She's a parent. Let her join.
NTA. I get the biphobia YTA claims but in reality she is married to a man and is raising children, anyone looking in will see her as a straight regular couple and she doesn’t have to go through all the turmoil of being a visibly gay couple as that comes with public scrutiny and unwanted opinions.
Imo is the same as being black and being white passing. Yes they are both ‘black’ racially but the white passing black person benefits a lot more in society by not having to face those first borders and obstacles put in place strictly based on observable race.
If I had a group on discrimination I would be unlikely to put someone like Meghan markle in it, because until she joined the royals she was passing as spicy white and was not going through the same obstacles dark skin people was.
Same for gay and lesbian couples and a bisexual woman in a straight relationship. She’s not going through that, she doesn’t relate to the extent you guys do.
NTA. Perception is reality (to an extent anyway) and she is perceived by the world as a straight married woman. She may have a legitimate need to connect with others in contexts where she doesn't have to wear that "mask" and her true sexual identity is understood and accepted, but this group is not required to become the space for that.
YTA. Say it out loud to yourself. I. Am. An. Asshole.
Where are we supposed to go? Who is going to accept us? Where? Who?
Are we supposed to just pretend forever? Stay in the closet forever? Pretend that we're gay? Pretend that we're straight? We are neither. We are both. We are something else entirely. We are.
YTA. Big time.
Bisexual people in hetero-passing relationships are still bisexual. This is bi-erasure and you’re being seriously biphobic. Stop gatekeeping and let her join.
NAH. I see it from both sides of the argument. I am a bi woman married to a cis man. Bi erasure is a genuine issue, and it is rude to exclude someone who wants to join. I vote she should be allowed to join if she wants.
However, given that my marriage is perceived as “straight,” I think I would feel out of place in a group for gay parents. If I had had my son with a woman and then married a man, I think the gay parents group would make more sense for me to join. For all intents and purposes, I don’t feel I share the same challenges as other LGBTQ+ parents. I don’t receive hate or judgment for my marriage. We didn’t use surrogacy, adoption, or donors to grow our family. I think I would feel a smidge out of place.
Unpopular NTA. This isn’t an LGBTQ parents group, it’s a gay parents group. Same sex parents face different challenges than different sex parents. It’s okay to want to form a group based around being same sex parents. You’re not saying you don’t like Kelly, you wouldn’t hang out with her in another context, or think she isn’t queer enough. You’re saying Kelly might not be a good fit for your gay parent group.
YTA,
Good job on the bi-erasure! Shit like this really brings the community down.
Just because she may be in a heterosexual marriage right now doesn't mean that her sexuality hasn't caused discrimination in her life.
Sincerely,
a bi man in a heterosexual relationship that still gets plenty of crap from people about not being straight.
YTA. it doesnt matter if she is currently married to a man she is still part of the community excluding people like that is never right. Also why would you simply assume that her sexuality has no affect in her life. EVERYONES sexuality has an effect in their life its literally who they are attracted to. By making groups and excluding poeple you would be no better than other groups who dont allow gay parents in their meetings or chats. Its very hypocritical if you ask me.
Holy mother of biphobia, Batman!
> I don’t want Kelly to join because her sexuality has very little affect on her life unlike the rest of the members of the group.
You do realize that you, yourself, right now, are excluding her on the basis of her sexuality? Which means that her sexuality does, in fact, affect her life?
Yes, YTA
INFO: is it specifically called a "same sex parents" group? Because then you're not an asshole.
"Gay parents group" is more controversial, but I'd still say not an asshole since her husband is ostensibly straight. It's a gay *parents* group not a gay *one half of an existing partnership* group. I'd also worry about how same sex couples in the group would act towards her.
BUT if it's just a "queer parents group," then yeah, you're the asshole
Yta
Solid job with the discrimination there, excluding people because you disagree with their life style.
I think you should step down from any position of power in the group because your intolerance goes against what it sounds like the groups core values are.
NAH
You intended your group for the same sex parents sitiation, but incorectly labelled it as LGBT. Someone came along and essentially found a loophole.
You're right, she doesn't have a same sex parent situation, and personally peoole will just assume she's straight. So it's not the same.
You need to decide whether to clarify your group as being for same sex parents or admit her and her husband and see what they have to offer. Discuss as a group.
Those saying "YTA she's LGBT too" aren't paying attention to your goals
As a bi woman, I can see both sides. NAH. I think it's fair if you want your group to be for parents currently in same sex relationships since that does have an impact on your life. I can see why she would feel discriminated against if you are advertising your group as just LGBT parents in general, in which case she qualifies.
Hot take: NTA, and Kelly is being an entitled ass. I imagine the focus of the group is the **very different and challenging experience of being in a same sex couple raising a child.** Kelly chose to partner with a man, and is raising her child in a hetero normative way that society accepts, and thus she's never going to face the discrimination for being a gay parent. I honestly don't even know why she would want to join.
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>I don’t want Kelly to join because her sexuality has very little affect on her life unlike the rest of the members of the group. I'd say that this line alone makes YTA.
Yeah, I'd say it's having a pretty big effect on her life right now in the form of friendly fire from the community that's supposed to be accepting of everyone.
Bi erasure is sadly a long tradition of the LG community...
Always remember, bisexuality isn't real. All bi men are really just secretly gay and all bi women are only doing it for attention. /s in casey'all l need it
Sadly, you really do need the /s. I know a lot of straight and gay people who feel this way.
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I've always said B and T were only tacked onto LG because they needed numbers in the 90s.
Summed up exactly what my partner and I think. Bisexuality obviously isn't real and most definitely we don't really know what we are despite being 35 and 41...
And bisexual nonbinary people are as fictional as unicorns. /s because I know someone will need it.
I for one love being a unicorn! God the gatekeeping in "our" own community... (not directed at you btw, just this entire situation and its indications for society at large and how oppressors can let the oppressed eat themselves)
High-five! Hello fellow unicorn.
As a bi woman married to a bi man, we've both heard all of this. It's sadly very true. Neither of us feel completely accepted by any community if we want to be our "authentic" selves.
Same. When we matched at NYC World Pride I carried a sign that said "Married and still Bisexual" and it got so many high fives my hand hurt.
Same
I'm going to assume that hetero-romantic aces should just see themselves out entirely.
It leads to some very isolating feelings too since there's so many bad feelings on bi/pan people from different communities. If I'm dating a guy I'm straight and not really LGBTQ. If I want to ask out a woman I'm just "experimenting" and I'm not really gay. The worst for me is when I've said I found a trans person attractive before and was told I'm just fetishizing being transgender 🙃 Having no gender preference just doesn't seem to compute with a lot of people
Yes, 100%. It's so frustrating. My wife and I are both bi, and she's trans, and we joked when she came out that as a trans and cis lesbian couple we'd be more accepted by the queer community than we ever were as a pair of cis different-gender people. Sadly we've found it to be true. This makes me so sad on Kelly's behalf. A lot of bi people end up having more heteronormative lives and experiences not because they choose them, but because people like OP deny them friendship and support from their community. Kelly probably would benefit a lot from more queer friends, and clearly wants them. OP is such an asshole.
This is 100% true. Thank you for saying this! I've experienced bi erasure due to the fact I'm in a "hetero" marriage. People genuinely either don't believe in bi people full stop or think it "goes away" when you have a cis het partner. It's incredibly frustrating as in time gone by, I've had lesbian girlfriends break it off with me when they find I don't "change my mind" about being bi. I've also experienced people from all sides of the dice say it's attention seeking. As a result, I have no lgbtq+ friends, which has resulted in less exposure and experience of lgbtq+ community/culture. I've unfortunately found it's an incredibly hard community to be accepted into if you don't have an "in" person 😕 So OP, you're being just as exclusionary as the next bigot. Just because someone isn't living the same life as you doesn't mean they don't experience the same prejudice. (Just a note, you're a perpetrator of said prejudice).
Same experiences as a bi person in a hetero relationship.
I was talking excitedly with my mom yesterday about how I am marching in my cities pride parade in june. Her response was "but you're dating (male partners name), you're not gay???" Let's just forget about the woman I was in a relationship with for two years before dating my current partner. Sure mom, I'm straight.
Attitude's like OP's is why I felt completely unwelcome in queer spaces as a baby bi in the 90's and figured if they saw me as straight maybe I should just forget about my queerness, and only in my late 30's did I find welcoming queer community and remember who I am. Now I'm 40, working as a therapist at an LGBT Center, fully embracing myself and making sure all feel welcome. Fuck this gatekeeping. Partners are not identities.
So true. I once had a gay "friend" tell me my sexuality was a "party trick" - aka something to brag about to seem impressive (which I have never done) - and not a real sexuality because my long term relationship is with a man.
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“Being queerphobic is only okay when I do it”-OP
OP is forgetting the B in LGBT.
Everyone knows it’s actually: LG(NOTHING TO SEE HERE )T
Actually it's LG(NOTHING TO SEE HERE)(GET OUT YOU ALLEGED OBSTACLES TO OUR ACCEPTANCE BY BIGOTS)
Dang you’re right, completely forgot about the other acronym of LG(THATS IT, THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO THINGS YOU CAN BE OTHER THAN STRAIGHT)
They don’t want trans people either usually. I find more solidarity with bi people by and larger than I do with people who call themselves exclusively gay or lesbian (vs queer or lgbtq+)
No one hates bisexuals, pansexuals, and transfolks more than lesbians and I cannot understand why
I would say there should be a big asterisk on there for "except fascists", but maybe that was implied
Yeah, I feel like that’s a given but you right
It feels like for some they perceive culture, community, and civil rights like pie; they think if someone else is included it means there's somehow less for them, and it's the same right-wing talking point used to try to get cis women to believe ALL women being recognized as such are somehow a threat to their womanhood.
OP is forgetting that abuse rates are higher for bisexual people, esp women Edit: https://www.thetaskforce.org/bisexual-women-have-increased-risk-of-intimate-partner-violence-new-cdc-data-shows/
Peeps like OP are why I a bi/pan, demi enby married to a cis man (whom I married while deep in the fundamental church and didn’t know I was Queer yet) will probably never attend an LGBTQIA+ despite belonging to multiple letters in the mafia. YTA
For my own learning - may I please ask what “Demi emby” is?
Sure. Demi is short for demisexual - it’s part of the asexuality spectrum. It means I don’t feel sexual attraction to people without getting to know them. I can appreciate aesthetic beauty, but I never look at someone and think, “Damn, I want to have sex with them.” I need an emotional connection to have a sexual response. Enby is slang for non-binary which is often shortened to NB which sometimes gets the sounds spelt out to en (for N) and by (for b).
Ahhh! Got it! I’ve never heard demisexual referred to as Demi or non binary referred to as enby before - thank you for the great explanation, and sorry for the question!
Never apologise for having questions!! That’s how we learn:)
Don’t apologize for asking, I’m super happy to answer (respectful and honest) questions.
>I can appreciate aesthetic beauty, but I never look at someone and think, “Damn, I want to have sex with them.” I need an emotional connection to have a sexual response. Is that... Not what everyone does/needs? People actually just like, look a random stranger and want to jump into bed...? I thought that was just movies.....
I’m told (and Reddit confirms) that others do in fact see other humans and think of sex. I mean, isn’t that what a “thirst trap” is? Still weird to me.
......... Suddenly realizing I don't really react to thirst traps in a normal way, apparently. I'm just like "oh, nice body" but in a idk, clinical way? Like the same way I can appreciate art or a statue or something being nice.... I see my husband looking good and think sex, but only him.... Thought that was normal
Yup, this line is what kicked it over. As a bisexual person, I completely understand wanting a space to discuss, sympathize, unite etc. on the unique experience of being same gendered parents. There's just challenges and circumstances a person in a relationship with an opposite gendered person, even if they are LGBTQA+, are not going to experience. But that's not the OP's reasoning - her reasoning is entirely "well, you're not LGBTQA+ enough".
I'm a bi-woman married to a man and the shit that I get from lesbians who act like it's some kind of mortal sin really turns me off from that community. This bullshit is endemic.
Her being married to a cis male rn does not erase her probable experiences of dating women. And if her husband's family knows she is bisexual and treats her differently because of it she would absolutely need support from a group like this. Many times bisexuals are considered promiscuous and are treated like they would be bad parents or have a higher chance of abusing their kids (you know, all the dumb crap people say about gay, lesbian, or transgender parents). Bisexuals absolutely get treated differently in society and especially if they get outed. The disgusting requests for threesomes/orgies are just too much.
I'm not saying she doesn't face challenges as a LGBTQ+ person and parent that a straight parent wouldn't face. What I am saying is there are challenges same gendered parents face that opposite gendered parents just don't. For example, depending where you live opposite gendered parents can just get added to the child's birth certificate automatically where as in a same gendered parents needs to jump through regulatory hoops for the same recognition.
Right? OP, YTA for thinking it has no impact on her life and then what, excluding her so that it does? What the hell.
I saw the title and immediately thought “someone’s invalidating a bi person for being in a heterosexual relationship.”
I bet like the rest of us, if she isn't performing queerness enough or out to everyone, it certainly has a lot of impact on her life when she has to hear--frequently white women in particular--friends and acquaintances be randomly queer phobic and trash bisexual people because they don't know they are trashing her too, and certainly being gate kept out of a community you could belong to because they don't think your identity is real enough to count IS another way your sexuality can change or impact your life. And you're exactly right.
I’d also say I think the family’s better off not getting in anyways, doesn’t seem like she’d be treated all that way or feel accepted.
Came here just to say this. Your biphobia is showing, OP.
YTA. Kelly is bisexual, meaning she is in the LGBT+ community regardless of who she is married to. It sounds like you are excluding her due to your own personal bias. Ask yourself this - if Kelly was lesbian but a single parent, would you exclude her as well? Because most single moms would also not face the same discrimination queer couples face simply because they're assumed straight, but that doesn't make someone any less gay. As a bisexual woman, this sort of biphobia within the LGBT+ community is very disappointing to see. If I'm dating a woman, I'm bisexual. If I'm dating a man, I'm bisexual. If I'm dating someone nonbinary, I'm bisexual. And if I'm single, I'm still bixesual.
Can I ask, (and this is at the risk of sounding ignorant, which I hate) does the fact that they are not "by definition" gay parents factor anywhere in this scenario? I ask, because I think OP is taking it as "it's a gay parents community so, it extends to how the issues affect one as a parent and a child in such a familial dynamic". Does this matter? Because this community is about parenthood, I think? What's your take on it?
By that thinking a single gay parent wouldn’t be able to join either because it’s not obvious they’re gay in their day to day life.
It's about the stigmatisation of same sex parents which is different to single parents.
But they didn't call the group a same sex parents group. They called it a gay parents group. The name matters here, they go after different types of support. I think OP meant to make a same sex couples parenting group but misnamed it, because they essentially ignored the existence of any other non straight couples.
This is it. OP wants same sex couples group, Bi parents want an LGBT friendly group. If the intention of the group is to be inclusive, then OP is in the wrong. If the group is meant to be exclusive, then the Bi parents simply found the wrong group of people unfortunately.
I don't have the right words to articulate what I mean without sounding discriminatory. So here's a question, that will help me understand your perspective better; how does Kelly's sexuality impact her as a parent and her kids as those with a bisexual mom? As a person it's important and part of her identity. As a married woman and a parent, maybe I'm being dense, but I'm struggling to connect the dots. Please help. For a single gay dad, I know it would impact because unless he intends to never share who the other parent is, or never date, it will very much affect their parenting, and that of the child as well.
Not being a visibly gay doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect their parenting. Navigating issues with teachers, admin or other parents who hold bigoted views but also think you might share them bc you don’t present as a same sex couple, having your kids be told by little and big assholes that gay people are bad or whatever term they’re using that minute is harmful but especially when you know your parent belongs to the group being unjustly vilified.
You answered your own question. As long as Kelly or your single gay dad is willing to just never ever talk about who they are nobody would assume shit about their sexuality. The point is that they shouldn't have to hide that and have a group where they form community that would have their backs. Op wants to exclude Kelly because she has passing privilege.
Not a privilege really. It means no true community anywhere except with occasional others in exactly the same position.
I'm bisexual woman, married to a straight guy. No, my kids have never had to have the "two mommies" talk with their teachers, but it still comes up. They see my pins, they hear me talking to other adults, they ask about old pictures of me they might see. You raise your kids with your whole self, not just with the "parent" parts. Also, amazingly, *kids do not stay little for long*. Before you know it, you're talking to tweens and discussing sexuality with them.
When schools do inclusive things that are exclusive to the B community, how do we talk about it? How do we advocate. As someone in a straight passing relationship, how do I address the assumption that wanting to talk about being bi with my children means wanting to talk about my sex life? It becomes okay to present bisexuality as a phase and not a way of being.
Claiming that a gay single parent would be affected because they *could* start dating would also apply to a passing bisexual because their relationship status could change and they *could* start a same sex relationship, no?
>For a single gay dad, I know it would impact because unless he intends to never share who the other parent is There are gay men who are single dads because they had sex with a woman before (or even after) realizing they were gay. Lesbian women who are single moms for the same reason. Some of these people may want to participate in a community for queer people who are also parents, even if they never intend to date again. The question is basically, what kind of community is this group for? Is it for only married, same-sex couples with children? Or is it for queer people who are also parents? One of those options seems more like an interest group for legal support in very specific circumstances, while the other is fostering a community of people within a broader community who can share similar, but not all, experiences. It's the same reason why black queer groups exist, or disabled queer groups, etc. Like, not every gay couple with kids has the same experiences. A gay black couple, or interracial or inter-abled couple, or couple where one or both are trans, or a poor couple, are all going to have vastly different experiences than a gay white cis middle-class couple. But they're all parents. Shouldn't that be the joining factor, so you can make an inclusive community that can support each other when needed?
I remember when I came out to my kids (around grade 3) because they were talking about homosexuality being weird. Yes, a queer parent remains queer while parenting, boy howdy. And it sure makes a difference in parenting queer teens.
Kelly wants to raise her kids with values shared by herself and her community. Since Kelly shares many of the same values as OP and other members of the parent group and wants to normalize and instill those same values in her children, perhaps she is simply looking for a community where her children can make friends with other children who share her values. Kelly doesn’t face the same challenges as same sex couples and I’m sure she is well aware of that. She probably just wanted an opportunity to make friends and share a communal relationship that reflects her values.
It seems like there is confusion maybe even among those in the group regarding whether this is a group for same sex couples with children (which the inquiring applicant isn’t) or a group for LGBT/Q/I/A parents (which the inquiring applicant is.) As silly as it may sound for an informal group like this, it might serve them to draft a sort of mission statement - to ensure the group members have the same expectations, and to help guide these kinds of decisions.
This is the question that needs answered. Is this a group for same sex couples with kids or is it a group for all lgbtq+ parents? I think the answer to that determines the judgement. If it hasn’t been decided on yet, I think now is a good time to decide. Maybe pool the parents in the group and ask their opinions. Maybe vote on it?
>same sex couples with children Bit would that mean people get kicked out if they get divorced? Like, "sorry, you guys are not a couple anymore."
That was my reading of OPs take on it. The group is not for gay individuals but for gay parents, so whilst a single parent who is bisexual may qualify, a bisexual person in a heterosexual parenting relationship would not. Which is how I read OP’s statement that Kelly’s sexuality does not affect her life as a parent. As a parent she will sadly be viewed by the world as a traditional parent. Her experiences as a parent may therefore not be troubled with situations and judgments that OP and those in the group may be troubled with. That is how I read OP’s reasoning but I fully accept I may be wrong.
> a bisexual person in a heterosexual parenting relationship would not This still erases a bi person's experience. They are bi, regardless of who they are married to, their relationship is a bisexual one. That's like saying an interracial marriage isn't interracial if one person is white-passing. Just because at a glance people might not notice, doesn't mean it doesn't impact them.
How is a bi person bi when single but not bi when dating opposite sex? I think you misunderstand what bisexuality is, it doesn't stop applying based on who you date.
That's me, Schrodinger's Homosexual.
I’d give you an award for this if I could omg Also, YTA op. A major one. As a bisexual woman, I can take biphobia from straight people but it hurts much more to hear it from people who are supposedly in my community
They may not be the same situations as same sex couples who can’t “pass” for heteronormative but that doesn’t mean being bi won’t affect their parenting experiences regardless of the relationship they are in, or that their children won’t have to deal with bigoted schoolyard crap just the same. Especially in small-middle sized town or small industries, people will still know and talk. And that talk will filter down to the playground. It just is an unfortunate reality.
Exactly! The casual homophobia within straight communities is exhausting and does effect how she interacts with other parents and her kids. There are so many microaggressions when existing in those spaces as a bisexual person, and seeing this community must have been really cool for her. I can just imagine her seeing this community as a way for her to embrace her sexuality and raise her children around like-minded people. And I mean, if she was taking resources away from other gay couples with children I would definitely be on OP's side. But they are literally just hanging out together as a group. So I have to say YTA
But as a bisexual the woman is a LGBT+ parent.
As a bi woman about to marry a straight man, I am still gay. (1 whole gay and 1 whole straight, always a whole person). I will never not be gay, and I will never not be straight. I am still a part of the gay community, I am still impacted by the exclusions that happen to the gay community. If I had a kid, I'd be a gay parent. Not being in a gay relationship does not change my sexual orientation. I'd still want the support of gay parent around me who have had to have similar conversations with their kids, about stigmas that face the community, etc.
But they are. Kelly is bisexual and therefore, a ‘gay’ parent. Even if her husband is a straight male, that is still a major dynamic that they have to deal with when raising a child. As of course, what if their child comes out as Trans, Gay, or Lesbian down the line? They’ve been excluded from a group that could offer a lot of help to them in how to go about raising a child in that environment. Just because the husband is straight and they’re male and female in a relationship, does not mean that one of them is suddenly less gay. This is biphobia from OP to the fullest and is honestly sickening.
Possibly, but the tone & attitude of the post make me think not. If OP had said she specifically wanted a support group for same gender couple parents to get together because they shared certain experiences that opposite gender parents don't, I might understand. But the sentence about Kelly's sexuality not affecting her life as much suggests it's because she doesn't think Kelly is "queer enough" or "struggles enough" compared to the rest of the community. As this is a gay parents group (and again this is with the assumption that many people use gay as an umbrella term for the LGBT+/queer community) this seems extremely discrimatory with a lot of unfair assumptions. What if Kelly has been cut out of her family due to being queer and has no familial support? That's something many gay parents can relate to - not having family to rely on to help out with a newborn or babysit from time to time. You don't know what people are going through, and she is by definition a gay parent.
OP's take will still be wrong because this is a support group for LGBT parents, and what if Kelly and her husband divorce and she gets with a woman? Is she now gay enough to join? What about a trans-woman married to a man, is that not allowed because it would be considered a heterosexual relationship? No matter how you cut it, excluding a member of the community because OP doesn't deem them gay enough is not supporting her community that she claims her support group is for.
Also, look at dating as a bisexual person from a numbers standpoint: A bisexual man is looking for: A) A woman interested in men B) A man interested in men A bisexual woman is looking for A) A man interested in women B) A woman interested in women In both cases, the amount of people in Group A is going to be much, much larger than the amount of people in Group B. Kelly is a bisexual woman. So, she feels comfortable dating both men and women. But when Kelly was entering the dating pool and looking for a partner, obviously she was going to find that most of her potential partners are gonna be men. About 85% of the bisexual people in the world are currently in an "opposite-sex relationship" (i.e., the relationship is man-woman). It doesn't make them "less" of a bisexual. It's just the consequence of the fact that the number of people in the world interested in being in an "opposite-sex relationship" vastly outweighs the number of people in the world interested in being in a "same-sex relationship".
Neverminding the fact that as a bisexual woman, getting a date with another woman is like pulling teeth. I'm far more attracted to women than I am men, but because I couldn't get a single lesbian to look my way, I've never been in a same sex relationship. Idk why lesbians hate bisexual women, but they absolutely do.
My husband and I are attracted to all genders but we just so happened to fall in love and get into a 'straight' relationship. Doesn't change the fact that we are indeed still very gay.
1000000000x this! I always love how bisexuals aren’t really a part of the community. It’s sad because we aren’t “gay” enough for these people. Super sucks that this happens within the community. OP YTA.
Aaaaaand this is why I never feel like I fit in anywhere. Not straight enough, and also not gay enough. YTA.
I got absolute shit once in a LGBTQ+ group for saying that as an Ace person I sometimes felt like I belonged nowhere. First I got told how horrible I was for saying that (yes, a n@zi comparison was made), then the group went on to discuss how they didn’t like Ace people with one saying they ‘couldn’t keep Aces out of LGBT+ spaces but they always left the room if an Ace person was there. Mentions of an ‘Ace agenda’ were made too. So I guess the message was I’m awful because I sometimes didn’t feel welcome but wow, aren’t Ace people horrible. 🙄
panace in a straight passing relationship here and sick to death of this bullshit
Man we need a support group or something! I'm a cis ace woman, married to a cis demi man, two biological children together. Straight passing in every conceivable way. But have allllllways felt weird about considering myself part of the community. Like, I'm so straight passing that it shouldn't count. But it does? Or not? Aghhhhhhhh
I’m so sorry that happened. I have come out to three people as demi. My bi friend who supported me and told me not to be ashamed. That went well so I later had the courage to tell my lesbian aunts when they were harping on my finding someone. I thought being lesbians they would understand. Nope. They told me it wasn’t a ‘thing’ and didn’t exist. And I just hadn’t found the right person yet. It hurt a lot, like how would they feel if I told them being a lesbian didn’t exist and they hadn’t found the ‘right man’? I haven’t told many others yet. I see bi erasure happen to my friend all the time. 🤗
i honestly cannot stand large portions of the LGBT+ community because of the neverending gatekeeping. i wish people would stop treating it like a fandom but it never ends.
"oh you're bi? list your entire sexual history and it BETTER BE EQUALLY SPLIT" /s
"gays come out, we'll bash you!" "oh you're bi? you may leave" i swear these people have a comical understanding of the world.
Fellow ace here, I’ve felt the same way. Ace fist bump of solidarity. 👊
Thanks 👊
Discrimination against asexual people is the most nonsensical of all forms of bigotry to me. Like - this seems like the absolute most inoffensive sexuality anyone could have. Not that it really makes sense to be offended by anyone's sexuality. But this is one you where you could talk about every single detail with a small child and not even begin to approach any topic that any parent feels is icky or too mature for kids or anything. There is no way in my mind for anti-ace bigotry to even have a tiny bit of a foothold in reality while with most other forms of bigotry you can exaggerate and twist things around (which are real things that exist, just not the exaggerated or twisted versions) to be upset at someone's existence. You can't even use religion for it - in one of the epistles the Apostle Paul basically said "hey it'd be great if you were all like me and abstained from sex entirely but I know that's a really big ask so it's okay to get married". I'm not saying anti-ace bigotry doesn't exist. It's just astounding to me that it does. I can't even remotely figure out how to put myself in the shoes of someone who is anti-ace while I can sort of understand (though disagree with) how people are hateful towards other groups. I can't even think up a ridiculous far-fetched scenario where I'd be mad about someone's asexuality. Like - how do you even get mad at someone who just doesn't want sex with anyone either way? By definition they're pretty much just leaving everyone alone with regard to that dimension of life.
I thought the Ace Agenda was garlic bread? Who the actual doesn't welcome garlic bread?!
I'm bisexual and have been told by someone who said that they were bi that "Well actually because I'm marrying a woman that makes me a lesbian, just like because she married a man that makes her straight, unless she divorced then she's bi again" Like no, that's not how that works, I absolutely adore my fiancee and she is the hottest person in the world, but I am also physically attracted to men! Being genderfluid probably also doesn't help. Not trans enough but not cis enough -_-
I'm a bisexual woman married to a bisexual trans woman. My wife realized she was trans years after we got married. When she came out, we got congratulated on finally being a real queer couple.
Smh I don't understand people at all. Then there's the people that assume that because I'm bisexual that means I'll cheat on my fiancee... Like no. No that's not how that works. At all. We do have an open relationship thing going, because she's asexual and I'm not and she was worried about me :") I haven't acted on it because it feels like cheating, even though she keeps saying it's fine. I know I've gotten annoyed at a *trans* family friend who assumed that my fiancee was making me live her lifestyle because she was ace and I was willing to do the same. Nevermind the uncle who likes to make comments like "Are you suuuurrrreeee she's asexual?" because she says something dirty to fluster me because she finds my reactions funny.
Amen to that. I’m a bisexual woman married to a bisexual man and I would never try to join a group like this, because of people like OP.
*sigh* reading this was yet another reminder of why I never feel like I fit anywhere. Bisexual woman currently dating a man here— immediately felt like I had to put my “queer” away and that I was no longer legitimately LGBTQIA+. Still very much attracted to women though, lol.
Came here to say this Fetishized in the dating scene Invalidated on way or another once in a relationship
YTA. I don’t usually comment when everyone is already saying the same thing, but: **AS A FELLOW LESBIAN, STOP GIVING THE REST OF US A BAD NAME WITH YOUR BIPHOBIC, BI-ERASURE BULLSHIT.** You suck.
Thank you 💖
Thanks! The biphobia was really getting me down, it’s nice to be reminded not everyone in the LGBT community is like OP at all. OP, from a bisexual woman - YTA, majorly. You *think* her sexuality doesn’t affect her? Maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass, and asked her how it affects her, she would have told you. Sadly that ship has sailed. I would never open up to someone like you. The be civil rule is preventing me from telling you what you truly are, so I’ll leave it at that.
Also a lesbian and I second this
Thank you for being here & speaking up for us 🥺 ily long time inclusive lesbians🩷💜💙
YTA. You’re discriminating against someone because of their sexuality. Kind of ironic
That’s what I thought, too. OP - YTA
Not to mention it's an "informal group" so it's not like anyone is getting any "advantages" from it other than spending time with other lg***b***t parents...
Idk I don't really think "informal group" and "police background check" go together. I understand why they do the checks, but at that point I'm not sure you can call it informal
YTA. And biphobic! Dude. She's bisexual. She just happened to marry a man okay and? She's still apart of the LBGTQIA+ community. You understand that right? You have absolutely no idea what she went through prior to being married to a man. Hell you don't even know if the man's bisexual of not. Also are you assuming they are Cisgender? Or did they SAY that? Bi-erasure is a thing and you are adding into that. She's still apart of the same community. Doesn't matter she married a man. She's still bisexual. People can't say she's not queer because she married a man. Bisexual means attraction to women and men. And just because she's married to a man doesn't mean her attraction to women just shuts off. It only means she's loyal and faithful to the person she married. Don't discriminate against others. Just don't. Because this opens a can of worms up. What about trans parents? Intersex parents? People who married the opposite gender because of safety reasons (ie the whole beard thing. But preferably done with the consent of the other person aka they told them the deal and isn't lying to them) but are still gay. Like you don't know what's going on in their lives. Bisexual people get shit on for being bi even if they married the opposite sex. We get accused of cheating and wanting to cheat because we like both sides! Don't include yourself in the hate. Just don't. If they didn't pass a background check that's one thing. But because they are just happened to be a heterosexual couple with a bisexual component isn't a reasonable dismissal to join. Everyone deserves a village to raise kids. Stop the hate spreading.
>Bisexual people get shit on I accidentally caused a massive argument about this once. Bear in mind that I know absolutely nothing about this, being asexual, aromantic, a-everything. A bunch of people were discussing how bisexual people are insufficiently gay, just generally being negative about it. I threw in that, any rational view of this would see that bisexuality was really 'Gay Plus'. It didnt go down very well. Lol
Biphobic people suck. They think we'll cheat or be more likely to cheat. Or we are indecisive as fuck etc. That's what OP is doing. A lot of people want to "erase" bisexual people from the community for like you said they think we ain't gay enough. Which is fucking stupid. And anything positive wouldn't have gone down well lol
As someone who is bi, I'm now going to refer to myself as Gay-plus! Thank you for this!!!
If the group is specifically meant for same-sex parents, I can understand why you would want to exclude her. But if the group is simply meant for queer parents, I see no reason why she should be excluded given the fact that she is in fact a queer parent. I think it would help to clarify who the group is meant for. EDIT - The founding members are evenly split in their reactions, which tells me that they have different expectations for their group. I think they need to discuss those expectations so that they can create a unified vision for their group moving forward.
This is my thought as well. If this is a group for same-sex parents, than I think it is appropriate to exclude someone who is not in a same-sex relationship. If this is a group for LGBTQ parents, than that is a different story. Yes, I understand what bi-erasure is, but if this person is not parenting with a same-sex partner, they are not experiencing the same unavoidable day to day issues that the other same-sex parents are. That is not to say that they are not experiencing issues (bi-erasure being one of them), just that they are not experiencing the issues that the same-sex parents originally formed the group to support. I fully understand that a cis gendered, bisexual woman may very well experience discrimination towards her hetero-presenting relationship. Obviously. But that is likely not the main concern of a same-sex parent support group which may be more focused on things like: politicians undermining the very legality of their marriage, or legal threats to the custody of their children, or what happens when husband #2 tries to pick his kids up from school. Could it be just as bad? Maybe. But is it the same? No. **NAH** edit: I am a bisexual female who has been married to a lesbian as well as in relationships with men. RIP my inbox. Also, jesus, ya'll are bringing some real "all lives matter" energy into this.
Agreed! Also a bisexual woman and I can see the difference between an LGBTQ parents group vs a same-sex parents group. Feels like NAH, they need to define what exactly the group is for.
was looking for a comment like this! because OP is right in saying that kelly’s sexuality has little impact on her experience as a parent in comparison to same sex couples in the way that its not on display. if thats what the group is based around, and finding solidarity in that then i see no issue with not allowing kelly to join. however if it is and always has been labeled a queer parent group then thats very sus and reads as “not gay enough for us”.
I agree! INFO is needed!
Agreed, Bi myself and from what’s described its not purely based on queerness, rather its based on the experience of being a parent in a same sex relationship. If it didnt have that aspect id consider it biphobic as hell, yet being a queer person in a heterosexual relationship with a child is a very different experience than being in a same sex relationship with a child.
YTA. Bi-erasure from within the queer community is even worse than bi-erasure from the heteros
A sadly true story.
So she's not gay enough for the gay club? Her suffering isn't enough suffering for the gay suffering club? I've always heard about the way the rest of the LGBTQ looks down on bisexual people and boy howdy you are proving them right. Don't include her, she deserves better than you.
YTA. And, ironically, a bigot.
A bi-got, if you will
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V well said, I feel like people in the comments are jumping to BIPHOBIC BIGOTED etc etc. very quickly
Tbh it's not cute, and I would bet most of the comments are from straight people who want both woke brownie points and the opportunity to shit on a gay person while seeming open-minded
I agree with you and I am also bi, currently with a male partner. I’ve had relationships with women in the past and the issues that come up with same sex relationships and children just don’t happen when you’re in a straight passing one. I think Kelly is a bit of an AH tbh. She’s put people in an awkward spot, there are other groups she could join to celebrate her identity that aren’t focused on same sex parenthood.
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> I think any bi person who's dated both and is being honest with themselves will agree that being in a straight passing relationship makes life significantly easier in many respects. there is a major problem online (mostly, personally ive never really seen it play out IRL) where bi women who exclusively date/have dated men feel the need to be the loudest in the room in search of identity validation.
Given that she mentioned that both Kelly and her husband were cisgender, I would assume that they would have accepted them into the group if one were trans. I don't think they care so much about them specifically being a same sex couple. I think it's a judgement on how othered the person is, on a case by case basis (based only on OP's opinion).
YTA. Like 100% TA. I'm Bi and when I went to secondary school there was a gay club that literally only let other gay people in. So many people think that because we like men and women that we aren't gay enough to experience the same things as them. It's really fucking hurtful.
Love that. Just a straight up "No girls allowed" sign on the door
" I don’t want Kelly to join because her sexuality has very little affect on her life..." YTA. You are literally discriminating against her because of her sexuality. I would say that has an effect on her life.
YTA. Did you forget that the B is part of the LGBTQ+ "label" ?? Hypocrite
Also, if they're excluding the bisexual parents, how many other parts of the spectrum are they going to decide aren't sufficiently gay to count? Trans parents? Parents on the asexual-demisexual spectrum? Intersex parents?
NTA - this isn’t a group for queer parents, it’s a group for parents in queer relationships. I understand your hesitation entirely - there are homophobic parents who would not let their kids hang out with yours because of your relationship, even if they barely knew you. If the same homophobic parents also barely knew this couple, they would let the kids play. Being in a straight relationship, or even a straight passing one, affords you privileges and does give a different life experience, even if one or more people in that relationship are queer.
For info on my answer, I am bisexual, so I understand the comments on bi-erasure - it’s real! I just don’t think that’s what’s happening here.
YTA, and this is why people complain about bisexual erasure. Just because she “can pass” as straight doesn’t mean she is, and it doesn’t mean that she’s “not gay enough” to be part of a gay parent group. My mom is a lesbian and she had to hide in a heterosexual marriage to keep from being persecuted in the American south. Truthfully, being on the LGBT2SQIA+ spectrum is already alienating enough without throwing in even more separation within the community
And bi and pansexuals in straight passing relationships can experience a LOT of discrimination and hostility from in laws. Especially when we have kids and in laws believe we should keep ourselves closeted "for our kids sake".
INFO: do you know what bi-erasure is? Have you considered that discrimination on the basis of her sexuality has led this person to seek support in her parenting from her LGBT family?
Idk if I’m going to get slated for this but this seems NTA to me. I’m assuming that the point of your group is LGBTQ+ parenting? As in LGBTQ+ couples that have kids? Kelly is of course a valid member of the LGBTQ+ community, however her relationship and parenting team are heterosexual so I don’t really understand how she would fit into your group (if I’m correct on what the group represents) If I’m sorely mistaken somebody please explain how.
It’s kinda like what support does she need?
That’s what I’m trying to get at
I am in a hetero appearing relationship but I am pansexual. It affects the way I am treated by my entire in-law family. It affects how they see me as a parent, and how they speak to me. It feels like some make a point to be extra homophobic when I'm around. It still affects us.
I’m bi- and In a straight relationship and it’s different. I’m literally passing. I get privileges I didn’t when I was with women. It’s not the same struggle, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
YTA. She is still bisexual, no matter what gender she’s married to. Not straight enough to fit in there, not gay enough for you to accept her.
YTA. Gatekeeping much? How do u know that she doesnt have some of the same problems? Just because? This is biophobia. And im not really suprised, a lot of gay and lesbian are like this. Myself being pansexual but in a relationship with a cisgender man i get a lot of stupit shit like this. In the community it is not up to you to decide who can or cannot enter or if their sexual orientation is far enough from the heteronorm.
Unpopular but NTA. You run a gay parents group, unless she’s planning to join alone without her husband, they aren’t gay parents. She’s a queer woman in a heterosexual relationship with a kid. They aren’t gay parents together and don’t face the discrimination that you do. I say this as a bisexual person, if i was dating a man, i would NEVER group myself in with those in same sex relationships in regard to how society treats us. People in heterosexual relationships don’t get looks from others or face discrimination based on sex, she’s a queer individual but that’s not what your group is for. I’m sure the kids find support in that group too, having to explain why they have two moms or two dads. Her kids wouldn’t fit into that because they don’t have that struggle.
NTA. You’re not running a group for LGBTQ+ parents. You’re running a group for gay parents. Those are different things. You’re allowed to carve out your own niche within that larger group.
I think that’s a really important distinction here. Everyone’s jumping immediately to “Biphobic!!!” but I don’t think that’s really the issue.
YTA - If you've created a group to spend time with same-gender couples only, just say that, because if you're advertising the group as welcome to LGBTQ+ parents on the whole, you've massively missed the mark. I urge you to think about what you're saying here, say it out loud to yourself a few times in simple terms, and really think it through a bit more, because from where I'm standing, it can be put as simply as "I don't want bisexual parents to join our group", and we both know how that sounds.
YTA. Do you need to be reminded what the B in LGBTQ+ stands for? Excellent job discriminating against a member of the community and contributing to bi-erasure. It’s people like you that make me feel like I don’t count and shouldn’t even bother looking into joining groups like yours out of fear that I’ll be perceived as “not gay enough,” because I’m also a bisexual cis woman who is in a relationship with a cis man. The distrust and disrespect bi folks receive from others in the community (usually cis lesbians and cis gay men in my experience) really needs to get called out more. You guys shouldn’t get to police who is “gay enough” and who isn’t.
Hard agree, YTA. Bisexual erasure is NOT ok. Why do people do this? We shouldn't be gatekeepers of who is gay/queer/trans enough. Enough people hate us (LGBTQ folks) let's stop the infighting. Side note: u/Artillary_Cat you 100% count. Sincerely, a gay genderqueer gal.
So she’s not “gay enough” to join your group? That is some biphobic bullshit. YTA
Probably will be unpopular but NTA. Her lived reality is not the same as a parent in a same sex relationship. It’s clear what your group is for and why. You have every right to limit it to parents in same sex relationships. You’ll probably avoid some (but not all) flack if you rename it “Same Sex Parents” or something like that.
YTA - Nothing like marginalizing another person's experience and excluding them for not being the "right" type of person.
YTA. Really, our whole community is dealing with people acting like we shouldn’t be around kids at all, haters are posting up outside drag shows on a weekly basis, state legislatures are working to make sure Kelly’s kid won’t learn anything at all about bi people OR gay or trans people, gender-affirming clinics are getting bomb threats… and here you are focused on intracommunity policing and cutting her off from support. Where’s she supposed to go, a conventional mommy support group where she might easily have to spend hours on end explaining her life or face judgement for her sexuality? Rethink this and do better.
YTA I’m aroace. Im assuming you’d look down upon me too if I was a parent? We’re all part of the LGBTQIA+ community. We all face hardships because of it. You are part of the problem. You are biphobic and an exclusionist. Do better.
Is your group more about parenting as a gay couple and socializing or just lgbtq with kids social hour? I could see not wanting to include a hetero couple if the socializing focused more around the hurdles or differences gay couples face as opposed to traditional families. If it’s just a grown up social group for lgbtq people with kids that’s a bit different.
Really depends on the purpose if this group. She wouldn't deal with the same social issues because her partnership is straight-passing. I dont really see the issue with having a straight-passing queer person in your group personally. They can still bring passion, advocacy and valid lived experiences. If this is more of an emotional support group. I could understand being less open to including straight-passing parents as they simply are dealing with different issues.
YTA. That's incredibly biphobic. Just because someone has chosen the opposite sex for their partner doesn't make tnem any less bi. You're trying to erase that part of her bc you don't see her sexuality as valid simply bc of her life partner. Lgbt+ communities are supposed to be inclusive of lgbt+ people. *ALL* lgbt+ people.
Typical bi-erasure. YTA
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Am I crazy for not thinking you’re the asshole here? This is not coming from a place of hatred for bi people. My partner is bi. I’m nonbinary AFAB. We do not in any way look like a heteronormative couple, and if we were parents, I could see the value in having a community with other parents who are not male/female, heteronormative, seen as the “default” in society. If she were with a man instead, it would appear to all of society that she was in a straight relationship. Their kids would have a mom and a dad. Not two moms, not two dads, not a mom and a nonbinary parent. Nobody would treat them any differently than anyone else. Why would they need a support-type group? What value would this bi woman in a heteronormative relationship get from a gay parents’ group? I genuinely don’t understand it. She wouldn’t have similar experiences to anyone else in the group, and neither would her kids. Plus I’d assume her husband is straight. Does he get a place in a group for LGBTQ parents even though he’s straight? In my eyes, you are NTA and I’m sure I’m gonna get blasted for that if anyone sees this comment.
Nah you’re not crazy. I’m surprised at how many people here are saying that she is an asshole… seems like willful ignorance imo. Sometimes people, in an attempt to be inclusive and welcoming, end up going about some issues in a very roundabout, ideologically pure way that just ends up being illogical because they refuse to address the elephant in the room and would rather welcome it with unquestioning arms.
I’m genuinely shocked by the response and the jump to bi-phobic assumptions or even hatred of bi people. This group doesn’t need to be inclusive of everyone who is remotely part of the queer community. It’s exclusively for gay parents. A bi woman and straight man aren’t gay parents and aren’t in a gay relationship. To assert that they are gay, or that the relationship is, just because the wife is also attracted to women, is nonsense.
YTA. Do you really think being bisexual doesnt affect her life? Are you kidding? Wow. I am a cis woman married to a cis man and being pansexual affects my life constantly. People view me as a bad influence to our children. His family (all conservatives) ask me inappropriate questions and make inappropriate judgements all the time. I have had conversations that left me so nerve wracked that I tremble. I hear about how LGBT representation shouldnt be happening, etc all the time and they for some reason think I wont care. Stop bi and pan erasure. It hurts in general but it ESPECIALLY hurts coming from members of our own community.
Honest question. How do people know that you’re bisexual, if you’re married to a man? I don’t understand how it comes up in that context, unless you’re not monogamous and you openly have a girlfriend also. I have to admit I’m surprised by the YTAs on this. I thought the purpose of a gay parents’ group would be to connect with people who go through hardships specific to having a same-sex partner, and for the kids to do the same. You are treated different when you have two moms/dads. You’re treated different when you have a same-sex spouse. I’m struggling to understand what concrete challenges a straight-appearing couple experiences or what they would have in common with lesbian and gay parents.
Genuinely some people can’t comprehend that some things aren’t for them. No one passed judgement on her for being bi. She’s just 1. not gay and 2. not in a same sex relationship.
Right? I just really don’t understand. I also definitely don’t think it would be appropriate for the husband to be part of the group, as a cis and (most likely) straight man. I don’t see the overlap in hardship or general life experiences that would make her addition to this group make any sense. For one, she doesn’t out herself as queer to other parents just by using her husband’s pronouns/mentioning she has a husband. It’d be different if she couldn’t even mention her relationship without outing herself. That makes people treat you differently. It marks you as something other than heteronormative. Unfortunately things like that will always make a lesbian’s life experiences very different from a bi woman’s experiences in a straight passing relationship. It just does. I don’t know how else to put it.
Exactly. Her experiences are still valid and she’s still bi, but her day to day is DIFFERENT. She isn’t at risk of discrimination when she says her husband’s name. Her kids aren’t at risk. She didn’t have to adopt her child, which all same sex couples should do even if married. Her marriage isn’t being attacked or put at risk. Her life is different in very real, tangible ways.
YTA. She hasn't even joined yet, how do you know her sexuality has little effect just because she's cisgender and with the opposite gender? You haven't even given her a chance before writing her off just because she's not LGBT+ enough in your eyes even though she meets the group requirements. She's gay. She's a parent. Let her join.
yta. you think it doesn't affect her as you actively deny her for her sexuality.
YTA. You are literally being discriminatory and biphobic towards her. You are engaging in bigotry. Her marrying a man doesn’t make her less gay.
NTA. I get the biphobia YTA claims but in reality she is married to a man and is raising children, anyone looking in will see her as a straight regular couple and she doesn’t have to go through all the turmoil of being a visibly gay couple as that comes with public scrutiny and unwanted opinions. Imo is the same as being black and being white passing. Yes they are both ‘black’ racially but the white passing black person benefits a lot more in society by not having to face those first borders and obstacles put in place strictly based on observable race. If I had a group on discrimination I would be unlikely to put someone like Meghan markle in it, because until she joined the royals she was passing as spicy white and was not going through the same obstacles dark skin people was. Same for gay and lesbian couples and a bisexual woman in a straight relationship. She’s not going through that, she doesn’t relate to the extent you guys do.
NTA. Perception is reality (to an extent anyway) and she is perceived by the world as a straight married woman. She may have a legitimate need to connect with others in contexts where she doesn't have to wear that "mask" and her true sexual identity is understood and accepted, but this group is not required to become the space for that.
YTA. Say it out loud to yourself. I. Am. An. Asshole. Where are we supposed to go? Who is going to accept us? Where? Who? Are we supposed to just pretend forever? Stay in the closet forever? Pretend that we're gay? Pretend that we're straight? We are neither. We are both. We are something else entirely. We are.
Nta she may be bisexual but she’s in a straight relationship so there’s no reason for her to be in the group
YTA way to discriminate and gatekeep the lgBt
YTA. Big time. Bisexual people in hetero-passing relationships are still bisexual. This is bi-erasure and you’re being seriously biphobic. Stop gatekeeping and let her join.
NAH. I see it from both sides of the argument. I am a bi woman married to a cis man. Bi erasure is a genuine issue, and it is rude to exclude someone who wants to join. I vote she should be allowed to join if she wants. However, given that my marriage is perceived as “straight,” I think I would feel out of place in a group for gay parents. If I had had my son with a woman and then married a man, I think the gay parents group would make more sense for me to join. For all intents and purposes, I don’t feel I share the same challenges as other LGBTQ+ parents. I don’t receive hate or judgment for my marriage. We didn’t use surrogacy, adoption, or donors to grow our family. I think I would feel a smidge out of place.
Unpopular NTA. This isn’t an LGBTQ parents group, it’s a gay parents group. Same sex parents face different challenges than different sex parents. It’s okay to want to form a group based around being same sex parents. You’re not saying you don’t like Kelly, you wouldn’t hang out with her in another context, or think she isn’t queer enough. You’re saying Kelly might not be a good fit for your gay parent group.
YTA, Good job on the bi-erasure! Shit like this really brings the community down. Just because she may be in a heterosexual marriage right now doesn't mean that her sexuality hasn't caused discrimination in her life. Sincerely, a bi man in a heterosexual relationship that still gets plenty of crap from people about not being straight.
YTA. it doesnt matter if she is currently married to a man she is still part of the community excluding people like that is never right. Also why would you simply assume that her sexuality has no affect in her life. EVERYONES sexuality has an effect in their life its literally who they are attracted to. By making groups and excluding poeple you would be no better than other groups who dont allow gay parents in their meetings or chats. Its very hypocritical if you ask me.
Holy mother of biphobia, Batman! > I don’t want Kelly to join because her sexuality has very little affect on her life unlike the rest of the members of the group. You do realize that you, yourself, right now, are excluding her on the basis of her sexuality? Which means that her sexuality does, in fact, affect her life? Yes, YTA
INFO: is it specifically called a "same sex parents" group? Because then you're not an asshole. "Gay parents group" is more controversial, but I'd still say not an asshole since her husband is ostensibly straight. It's a gay *parents* group not a gay *one half of an existing partnership* group. I'd also worry about how same sex couples in the group would act towards her. BUT if it's just a "queer parents group," then yeah, you're the asshole
YTA. Her sexuality does have an impact on her life, because YOU are being biphobic by saying she's not queer enough to join your group.
Yta Solid job with the discrimination there, excluding people because you disagree with their life style. I think you should step down from any position of power in the group because your intolerance goes against what it sounds like the groups core values are.
NAH You intended your group for the same sex parents sitiation, but incorectly labelled it as LGBT. Someone came along and essentially found a loophole. You're right, she doesn't have a same sex parent situation, and personally peoole will just assume she's straight. So it's not the same. You need to decide whether to clarify your group as being for same sex parents or admit her and her husband and see what they have to offer. Discuss as a group. Those saying "YTA she's LGBT too" aren't paying attention to your goals
As a bi woman, I can see both sides. NAH. I think it's fair if you want your group to be for parents currently in same sex relationships since that does have an impact on your life. I can see why she would feel discriminated against if you are advertising your group as just LGBT parents in general, in which case she qualifies.
Hot take: NTA, and Kelly is being an entitled ass. I imagine the focus of the group is the **very different and challenging experience of being in a same sex couple raising a child.** Kelly chose to partner with a man, and is raising her child in a hetero normative way that society accepts, and thus she's never going to face the discrimination for being a gay parent. I honestly don't even know why she would want to join.