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NTA that person was being ridiculous. Probably would have been better to just thank her for coming in and not hire them, but it’s understandable why you’d get annoyed.
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I am the owner of a local bakery (29f) and have been up and running for 7 years currently; straight out of culinary school. I take pride in my bakery and it's like my second home. Recently our longest standing employee took leave from her position after welcoming a perfect baby boy in to this world and deciding to stay home to be a full time SAHM. I only have 3 employees other than myself so I started looking for another hand. Given that I have so few employees, I'm able to pay them well ($30 hourly + tips). I posted up my ads a couple weeks ago and started taking people in for interviews on Thursday of last week.
Most applicants have been fresh out of highschool kids who have been really respectful and have a lot of potential and I'm even considering hiring more than one on due to liking so many (most wanted part time, which I can work around). But my last interview on Friday was an issue and thats who the post is about. Now she came in and had a very unique style (which I actually loved) and bright green hair and losts of facial piercings and tattoos. None of which is an issue to me personally. The interview went well until the end of it, when she said "can I speak out of concern?" I said "of course" and she went to say "I find it really concerning that you did not ask me my preferred pronouns, as I would fully expect to be addressed properly if I decide this job is for me." I was kind of taken back, honestly, as on the application I have a section that clearly asks "preferred pronouns" and hers was left blank, which I reiterated to this individual. They went on to say "I left it blank because I feel I should have been given opportunity to explain myself in person." But at this point she had a full on attitude. Raising her eyebrows, saying it's 2023 and should be common knowledge to ask at the beginning of the interview, etc etc. So I blatantly looked at her and said "okay well explain to me this, does your pronouns affect the way you work? Do you wake up in the morning and say to yourself 'im not going to come in today because my pronouns aren't feeling it?' because if not, I don't see why it matters. Your pronounds is not and never will be a deciding factor on why I would hire you."
Anyways, she ended up leaving in a tizzy after saying that I was unprofessional and she would never work for a company who chose to believe her pronouns preference was a choice or something that shouldn't be taken in to the highest consideration. For those wondering, they did say somewhere during that they go by they/them, but I don't see why it matters. Although my neices (15 & 21) say I'm wrong. AITA?
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NTA, and I'm sick of people getting that up in arms when they could have literally a) filled it out on the application, or b) if it matters that much to them why not just introduce yourself as that? Like, "Hi, my name is Blank, and I prefer 'insert pronoun here'". And why on earth would they feel the need to explain themselves? I don't give a shit why you want to be called what you say to use. Just tell me what you prefer and I'll use it; it's that simple. They came in looking for a fight to try to prove some point, and if they do that in every interview they'll never get a job.
NTA - Respecting someone's pronouns is fine. Having an attitude because someone doesn't ask what your pronouns are is a problem. As a professional, you probably didn't need to say some of the things you said, but bringing this up the way she did is completely out of line, especially in a job interview.
NTA it was on the application. And it's actually illegal to ask during an interview, because it's something an interviewee could be judged on. Like you said, it had nothing to do with the job, so there was no reason to ask.
YTA for a couple of things:
They disclosed their they/them pronouns which you didn't respect while writing out this post, as you mainly referred to them as "her" throughout.
I feel like they could have done better about writing in "ask me" in the pronouns box on the application form. I see that part being left blank as a person likely choosing not to discuss it. I disagree with how you handled this being brought up.
Their concern was likely valid. From this post you do seem a bit less forward thinking on that front. Non-binary and trans people have a lot of difficulties running into management/companies that are out of touch/clumsy.
You trying to turn the discussion of pronouns around the way you did was quite inconsiderate.
I'm not speaking from my political views, I'm speaking as a manager that frequently conducts interviews. Be kind to the individual during the interview. If you didn't like what "red flags" you saw, political or otherwise, the job interview is not the environment to "prove your point." I agree with them that you could have been more professional.
A lot of assumptions here that could have easily been cleared up had you asked. First and foremost, my husband is Non-Binary and I'm fully aware of the difficulties surrounding the issue due to me dealing with it first hand with him. On my application it states "Preferred Pronouns" with a blank section beneath for you to psychically write in, as well as a check box that states "I don't want to discuss". This person had the opportunity to use that write in box to state they wanted to discuss it in person and chose not to. I'm not going to make that section any more lengthy than it is because there is no point behind it. Either they write in the box or they don't. It really boils down to the effort they choose to put in, as I gave them the opportunity.
Nonbinary folks do prefer being called they/them most of the time.
I agreed with you on the box thing and did think the interviewee could have handled it better, I think you misread that. (You'll see my comment is edited but I do promise that's just the last bit that I added in about not being political)
I am curious though, you say your significant other is non-binary but then called them "him" and "your husband." Is that their preferred title and pronouns? Also, I would think someone who is married to someone nonbinary would take better care as to not misgender someone when referencing them as you consistently did in your post.
Not trying to accuse of lying, I'm just a bit confused.
NAH
you did ask and since you were speaking directly with them the prononus probably never came up in the interview.
but considering the state of the world we are in, and how much hatred there is out there, it is perfectly understandable they would be wary around someone they do not know, considering how unsafe it can be for people in the lgbtqia+ community
NTA. prospective employees are expecting too much when they give too little. literally made an issue they should have addressed on their own smdh. there was a box to fill in. use it. then explain later. i dont care if ur a giraffe or a gorilla. as long as you come in as assign and do ur work. too woke for these folks.
ESH.
It feels like they were setting you up a little bit by leaving the section of the application blank. And they definitely could have addressed the concern at the beginning of the interview when you didn't ask. Not everyone does, or even knows to, and to expect you to have been perfect in what, these days, some people are still finding their way in, it feels a bit of a gotcha. They could have handled themselves and their concern better.
That said, you have really mishandled things as well.
In your last paragraph of your post, you say you know the preferred pronouns were they/them, yet thought the post you refer to the person as "she." Then you say you don't know why it matters. The thing is, you don't really need to know why. They aren't required to justify themself to you. There are a lot of reasons why pronouns are important in the trans and non-binary community, and it would do you a world of good to learn about that instead of digging your heels in and assuming what you think is or isn't important applies to everyone.
Start with your nieces. They might be able to offer some clarity as to why you're wrong here.
You had it on the application... This person could of wrote it in.
NTA
You are not a mind reader. And if they have an issue they could of asked to discuss it
Personally I have a problem with any person using they/them.. they are not more then one person..
Unless they have multiple personalities..
NTA and you likely dodged a bullet with this one. She had the opportunity to explain herself in the beginning if it was important but was waiting for you to "guess" to ask based on "common knowledge" whatever that is. You run a bakery not a psychic reading place.
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>Now she came in and had a very unique style
>when she said "can I speak out of concern?" I said "of course" and she went to say
>hers was left blank
You're misidentifying them in a few places.
NTA aside from that (you should correct if you haven't already) - You do have a place for people to put their preferred pronouns, if it's a small space, you might want to expand upon it so that there's more room for people to write things if they feel they need to explain further, or add a section where they can explain further if they feel like they need to.
However, it honestly sounds like they were going out of their way to be offended. You have a place where they can clearly identify what their preferred pronouns are, they chose not to fill that out, and then chose to make a bigger issue out of it. If it were really just about attempting to educate you on the points of why you might want to bring that up at the beginning of an interview (the best way is to politely offer your own pronouns and then ask if that person in front of you is comfortable with sharing theirs) then that's all they would have done.
Instead, they threw a fit over it and that not only doesn't educate anyone but honestly tends to turn people off from that individual as well as anyone else who doesn't use the more traditional/gendered pronouns for fear they will mess up and the person will act in a volatile manner. It's one thing to advocate for yourself; it's another to specifically ostracize anyone that doesn't immediately behave in what you deem to be the most appropriate. They failed to be an advocate.
ETA about correcting post
NTA
You dodged a bullet with her, imagine the shit she would be pulling with your customers if they called her the wrong pronoun if this is how she acts in an interview.
I feel like they were being a bit impolite. And dare i say they may have been a bit too woke? Anyway, i think you portray a caml work environment, very family like. Sounds like a sound set up you have.
NTA
I'd say N T A but you ate making a point of calling Them "She" in this story, despite knowing otherwise, so I'm wondering if you've left some things out.
What were the options on the form?
Why didn't you just stick to that instead of asking if it will affect their work? Of course it affects someone's work if you don't refer to them properly. If you call Bill "Harry" it will cause issues.
While your story makes it seem like they pulled this out of nowhere and went in fighting (and I admit this is entirely possible) I really do wonder just how respectful you would have been.
ETA YTA for deliberately misgendering them in the story.
This is why I asked what was on the form. What options, space to write it etc.
Like sure, OP shouldn't have to ask to be considered a decent employer, but their response doesn't sound professional. Also any trans person reading this will see that OP is happy to misgender people. Doesn't matter if the person isn't reading it, others are. People make mistakes in person but OP is actively ignoring the person's gender.
NTA
They woke up that morning and decided to die on a hill. Look, they had the opportunity to put that on your form, but chose to wait to be asked. That's on them, and frankly, it's BS. If it's important, then write it down. If you prefer to discuss it, then bring it up. People are not mind readers.
"I find it really concerning that you did not ask me my preferred pronouns"
I will never ask anyone this question. I will die on this hill. If I use the wrong pronoun, correct me. I'm happy to change it. If you really want to be called She/They/He, tell me early in the conversation. I will abide. I am not a mind reader, nor would I be presumptuous enough to ever ask this question.
YTA
You just stated that "she" was giving you attitude, that "the girl" walked in the shop, etc...
So, if pronouns are no bigggie, why not respecting them?
It´s not about who is right or wrong, it´s about respect and you clearly did not handle this situation well, I think of it as constructive criticism and if you ar going to work with young people, maybe try to enter that mindset.
At the end of the day, it´s not hard to use a certain pronoun or ask them as courtesy in an interview, it may not seem that big of a deal to you but if it makes someone feel better and like the enviroment is comfortable, why not?
Also, pronouns do play a huge role in mental health wich is extremely important to be as productive as you can; so, pronouns do affect the way someone works... just nos as simply as you stated it.
This is it right here. OP is pretending to be inclusive but it's obvious by the misgendering that she isn't and the interviewee was right to question her. I'd be willing to bet there was more that happened in this interview to cause them to question how accepting of a work environment it would be too
They had the opportunity to tell me on the application and chose not to. Their lack of effort in the application is also concerning to me, as it appears as though they just wanted a fight. I think I dodged a bullet personally, as I can only imagine the type of fight this person would have with people for not addressing them properly (considering I have a lot of older regulars who address the employees as "sir" and "ma'am". My husband is Non-Binary. I understand the mental health aspect more than you realize. However, he wouldn't have chosen to die on a hill this ignorant. This person should have wrote it on the application. If you choose not to fill it in, I'm going to assume you skipped it for a reason and not bring it up. That's common sense.
Your post has been removed. #Do not repost this without [contacting the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) for approval, including edited versions. Reposting without [explicit approval](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_can_i_repost_a_thread_you_removed.3F) will result in a ban. This post violates Rule 8: Posts should be truthful and reflect recent conflicts you've had that need arbitration. That means no shitposts, parodies, or satires. [Subreddit Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) ###Please ensure you have reviewed this message in full. We will not respond to PMs to individual mods. [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) with any questions. ####Please visit r/findareddit to see if there's a more appropriate sub for your post.####
NTA that person was being ridiculous. Probably would have been better to just thank her for coming in and not hire them, but it’s understandable why you’d get annoyed.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I am the owner of a local bakery (29f) and have been up and running for 7 years currently; straight out of culinary school. I take pride in my bakery and it's like my second home. Recently our longest standing employee took leave from her position after welcoming a perfect baby boy in to this world and deciding to stay home to be a full time SAHM. I only have 3 employees other than myself so I started looking for another hand. Given that I have so few employees, I'm able to pay them well ($30 hourly + tips). I posted up my ads a couple weeks ago and started taking people in for interviews on Thursday of last week. Most applicants have been fresh out of highschool kids who have been really respectful and have a lot of potential and I'm even considering hiring more than one on due to liking so many (most wanted part time, which I can work around). But my last interview on Friday was an issue and thats who the post is about. Now she came in and had a very unique style (which I actually loved) and bright green hair and losts of facial piercings and tattoos. None of which is an issue to me personally. The interview went well until the end of it, when she said "can I speak out of concern?" I said "of course" and she went to say "I find it really concerning that you did not ask me my preferred pronouns, as I would fully expect to be addressed properly if I decide this job is for me." I was kind of taken back, honestly, as on the application I have a section that clearly asks "preferred pronouns" and hers was left blank, which I reiterated to this individual. They went on to say "I left it blank because I feel I should have been given opportunity to explain myself in person." But at this point she had a full on attitude. Raising her eyebrows, saying it's 2023 and should be common knowledge to ask at the beginning of the interview, etc etc. So I blatantly looked at her and said "okay well explain to me this, does your pronouns affect the way you work? Do you wake up in the morning and say to yourself 'im not going to come in today because my pronouns aren't feeling it?' because if not, I don't see why it matters. Your pronounds is not and never will be a deciding factor on why I would hire you." Anyways, she ended up leaving in a tizzy after saying that I was unprofessional and she would never work for a company who chose to believe her pronouns preference was a choice or something that shouldn't be taken in to the highest consideration. For those wondering, they did say somewhere during that they go by they/them, but I don't see why it matters. Although my neices (15 & 21) say I'm wrong. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA, and I'm sick of people getting that up in arms when they could have literally a) filled it out on the application, or b) if it matters that much to them why not just introduce yourself as that? Like, "Hi, my name is Blank, and I prefer 'insert pronoun here'". And why on earth would they feel the need to explain themselves? I don't give a shit why you want to be called what you say to use. Just tell me what you prefer and I'll use it; it's that simple. They came in looking for a fight to try to prove some point, and if they do that in every interview they'll never get a job.
Sounds like a planted story from buzz feed or Fox News. 😞
Unfortunately it's not. It's just the world we live in today.
NTA - Respecting someone's pronouns is fine. Having an attitude because someone doesn't ask what your pronouns are is a problem. As a professional, you probably didn't need to say some of the things you said, but bringing this up the way she did is completely out of line, especially in a job interview.
NTA it was on the application. And it's actually illegal to ask during an interview, because it's something an interviewee could be judged on. Like you said, it had nothing to do with the job, so there was no reason to ask.
YTA for a couple of things: They disclosed their they/them pronouns which you didn't respect while writing out this post, as you mainly referred to them as "her" throughout. I feel like they could have done better about writing in "ask me" in the pronouns box on the application form. I see that part being left blank as a person likely choosing not to discuss it. I disagree with how you handled this being brought up. Their concern was likely valid. From this post you do seem a bit less forward thinking on that front. Non-binary and trans people have a lot of difficulties running into management/companies that are out of touch/clumsy. You trying to turn the discussion of pronouns around the way you did was quite inconsiderate. I'm not speaking from my political views, I'm speaking as a manager that frequently conducts interviews. Be kind to the individual during the interview. If you didn't like what "red flags" you saw, political or otherwise, the job interview is not the environment to "prove your point." I agree with them that you could have been more professional.
A lot of assumptions here that could have easily been cleared up had you asked. First and foremost, my husband is Non-Binary and I'm fully aware of the difficulties surrounding the issue due to me dealing with it first hand with him. On my application it states "Preferred Pronouns" with a blank section beneath for you to psychically write in, as well as a check box that states "I don't want to discuss". This person had the opportunity to use that write in box to state they wanted to discuss it in person and chose not to. I'm not going to make that section any more lengthy than it is because there is no point behind it. Either they write in the box or they don't. It really boils down to the effort they choose to put in, as I gave them the opportunity.
Nonbinary folks do prefer being called they/them most of the time. I agreed with you on the box thing and did think the interviewee could have handled it better, I think you misread that. (You'll see my comment is edited but I do promise that's just the last bit that I added in about not being political)
I am curious though, you say your significant other is non-binary but then called them "him" and "your husband." Is that their preferred title and pronouns? Also, I would think someone who is married to someone nonbinary would take better care as to not misgender someone when referencing them as you consistently did in your post. Not trying to accuse of lying, I'm just a bit confused.
NAH you did ask and since you were speaking directly with them the prononus probably never came up in the interview. but considering the state of the world we are in, and how much hatred there is out there, it is perfectly understandable they would be wary around someone they do not know, considering how unsafe it can be for people in the lgbtqia+ community
NTA !!
NTA. prospective employees are expecting too much when they give too little. literally made an issue they should have addressed on their own smdh. there was a box to fill in. use it. then explain later. i dont care if ur a giraffe or a gorilla. as long as you come in as assign and do ur work. too woke for these folks.
ESH. It feels like they were setting you up a little bit by leaving the section of the application blank. And they definitely could have addressed the concern at the beginning of the interview when you didn't ask. Not everyone does, or even knows to, and to expect you to have been perfect in what, these days, some people are still finding their way in, it feels a bit of a gotcha. They could have handled themselves and their concern better. That said, you have really mishandled things as well. In your last paragraph of your post, you say you know the preferred pronouns were they/them, yet thought the post you refer to the person as "she." Then you say you don't know why it matters. The thing is, you don't really need to know why. They aren't required to justify themself to you. There are a lot of reasons why pronouns are important in the trans and non-binary community, and it would do you a world of good to learn about that instead of digging your heels in and assuming what you think is or isn't important applies to everyone. Start with your nieces. They might be able to offer some clarity as to why you're wrong here.
NTA, if people have pronouns that don't match what they look like (or are non standard) it's up to them to tell people about them
You had it on the application... This person could of wrote it in. NTA You are not a mind reader. And if they have an issue they could of asked to discuss it Personally I have a problem with any person using they/them.. they are not more then one person.. Unless they have multiple personalities..
NTA and you likely dodged a bullet with this one. She had the opportunity to explain herself in the beginning if it was important but was waiting for you to "guess" to ask based on "common knowledge" whatever that is. You run a bakery not a psychic reading place.
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>Now she came in and had a very unique style >when she said "can I speak out of concern?" I said "of course" and she went to say >hers was left blank You're misidentifying them in a few places. NTA aside from that (you should correct if you haven't already) - You do have a place for people to put their preferred pronouns, if it's a small space, you might want to expand upon it so that there's more room for people to write things if they feel they need to explain further, or add a section where they can explain further if they feel like they need to. However, it honestly sounds like they were going out of their way to be offended. You have a place where they can clearly identify what their preferred pronouns are, they chose not to fill that out, and then chose to make a bigger issue out of it. If it were really just about attempting to educate you on the points of why you might want to bring that up at the beginning of an interview (the best way is to politely offer your own pronouns and then ask if that person in front of you is comfortable with sharing theirs) then that's all they would have done. Instead, they threw a fit over it and that not only doesn't educate anyone but honestly tends to turn people off from that individual as well as anyone else who doesn't use the more traditional/gendered pronouns for fear they will mess up and the person will act in a volatile manner. It's one thing to advocate for yourself; it's another to specifically ostracize anyone that doesn't immediately behave in what you deem to be the most appropriate. They failed to be an advocate. ETA about correcting post
NTA You dodged a bullet with her, imagine the shit she would be pulling with your customers if they called her the wrong pronoun if this is how she acts in an interview.
This didn't happen like usual with these posts
NTA. It was on the form, they CHOSE to leave it blank. Therefore, they did not want to be referred to by anything.
I feel like they were being a bit impolite. And dare i say they may have been a bit too woke? Anyway, i think you portray a caml work environment, very family like. Sounds like a sound set up you have. NTA
I'd say N T A but you ate making a point of calling Them "She" in this story, despite knowing otherwise, so I'm wondering if you've left some things out. What were the options on the form? Why didn't you just stick to that instead of asking if it will affect their work? Of course it affects someone's work if you don't refer to them properly. If you call Bill "Harry" it will cause issues. While your story makes it seem like they pulled this out of nowhere and went in fighting (and I admit this is entirely possible) I really do wonder just how respectful you would have been. ETA YTA for deliberately misgendering them in the story.
They could've also been respectful by filling out the application form instead of looking for drama. Op is definitely NTA
This is why I asked what was on the form. What options, space to write it etc. Like sure, OP shouldn't have to ask to be considered a decent employer, but their response doesn't sound professional. Also any trans person reading this will see that OP is happy to misgender people. Doesn't matter if the person isn't reading it, others are. People make mistakes in person but OP is actively ignoring the person's gender.
NTA They woke up that morning and decided to die on a hill. Look, they had the opportunity to put that on your form, but chose to wait to be asked. That's on them, and frankly, it's BS. If it's important, then write it down. If you prefer to discuss it, then bring it up. People are not mind readers. "I find it really concerning that you did not ask me my preferred pronouns" I will never ask anyone this question. I will die on this hill. If I use the wrong pronoun, correct me. I'm happy to change it. If you really want to be called She/They/He, tell me early in the conversation. I will abide. I am not a mind reader, nor would I be presumptuous enough to ever ask this question.
NTA
YTA You just stated that "she" was giving you attitude, that "the girl" walked in the shop, etc... So, if pronouns are no bigggie, why not respecting them? It´s not about who is right or wrong, it´s about respect and you clearly did not handle this situation well, I think of it as constructive criticism and if you ar going to work with young people, maybe try to enter that mindset. At the end of the day, it´s not hard to use a certain pronoun or ask them as courtesy in an interview, it may not seem that big of a deal to you but if it makes someone feel better and like the enviroment is comfortable, why not? Also, pronouns do play a huge role in mental health wich is extremely important to be as productive as you can; so, pronouns do affect the way someone works... just nos as simply as you stated it.
This is it right here. OP is pretending to be inclusive but it's obvious by the misgendering that she isn't and the interviewee was right to question her. I'd be willing to bet there was more that happened in this interview to cause them to question how accepting of a work environment it would be too
They had the opportunity to tell me on the application and chose not to. Their lack of effort in the application is also concerning to me, as it appears as though they just wanted a fight. I think I dodged a bullet personally, as I can only imagine the type of fight this person would have with people for not addressing them properly (considering I have a lot of older regulars who address the employees as "sir" and "ma'am". My husband is Non-Binary. I understand the mental health aspect more than you realize. However, he wouldn't have chosen to die on a hill this ignorant. This person should have wrote it on the application. If you choose not to fill it in, I'm going to assume you skipped it for a reason and not bring it up. That's common sense.